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Nqp15hhu
11-14-2019, 04:30 PM
Upon receiving my LivingDna results I was shocked to learn that I am only 15% British and 85% Irish.

This is a very high Irish percentage but also shocking, as I do have a decent chunk of Presbyterian ancestry which I assumed would contribute a sizeable chunk of British dna.

It made me think though... has this plantation heritage been mixed out over the years? Was I unrealistic to expect to see +30% of British dna when the Plantation of Ulster was over 400 years ago?

It would be interesting to see if results where similar for most people in Northern Ireland.

It certainly has made me think about this. It is true that there is a lot of Protestants here with Irish surnames. Maybe some of them are not even Ulster Scots at all.

Heaven knows with adoptions and adultery anything could’ve happened.

sktibo
11-14-2019, 04:51 PM
Once again I cannot suggest strongly enough to you to read up on the major studies on Britain and Ireland which has been more closely studied than any other region in terms of genetics, as far as I know. If you read these, you would not need to ask these questions here.

The short answer is that most sampled people in Northern Ireland reflect the Ulster Scots - they cluster with people in South-West Scotland.



The northeast of Scotland is dominated by 2 large clusters whose ancestry originates from the main administrative regions of the area, Tayside-Fife and Aberdeenshire. It also includes the small cluster Buchan-Moray which exhibits characteristics of isolation: high fixation indices (FST) (Dataset S1) and high levels of short and long runs of homozygosity (ROH) (SI Appendix, Fig. S4 and Supplementary Data 3), with a gene flow barrier in EEMS (Fig. 2). The southwest Scottish branch includes samples with ancestry from the western coast area of Argyll and the Isle of Man, but the majority belong to the Sco-Ire cluster. Members of the Sco-Ire cluster have ancestries either from the northeast of Ireland or the southwest of Scotland. The distribution of Irish members of Sco-Ire appears to be limited to regions of north Ireland which saw substantial plantation of British migrants in the 17th century.


From https://www.pnas.org/content/116/38/19064

Which you should really read.

Nqp15hhu
11-14-2019, 04:55 PM
We haven’t seen any other Northern Irish living dna so that’s not true

sktibo
11-14-2019, 05:01 PM
We haven’t seen any other Northern Irish living dna so that’s not true

Look man, here's the bottom line:
Since you started DNA testing you've been assigned results which reflect that of a person whose ancestry is Irish. You ask the same questions in different ways all the time, and it seems that you refuse to read relevant material on the subject matter. It seems that it's pretty hard for you to come to terms with and it isn't what you wanted to find. But that's what DNA testing does. If it was what you wanted to find, you have gone "well, cool." and signed off. I don't know what it's like to be a Northern Irish person with your cultural background.. but it's completely obvious that you need to take a long walk and come to terms with the data you've been presented with. All of the questions you've asked and perhaps will continue to ask have been answered.

You have a good enough answer to your question, the issue here is that you need to start processing it.

Good luck.

Nqp15hhu
11-14-2019, 05:06 PM
I’ll listen to it when I see other Northern Irish people’s results. And I do have some Ulster Scots dna according to this test, i’m not 100% Irish.

sktibo
11-14-2019, 05:30 PM
I’ll listen to it when I see other Northern Irish people’s results. And I do have some Ulster Scots dna according to this test, i’m not 100% Irish.

Luckily for you, I was able to find Jonathan Mc Guinness's results for his Living DNA test. He's half Ulster Irish and half Northern Irish. I think you'll be very interested in these, here is a comparison of his original and then updated results:

"This is from the update I requested from the other week. My maternal ancestry is Ulster Irish and my paternal ancestry is Ulster Scot. I have got a 2nd match on the family networks as well."

May 2017 - New
Northwest Scotland 27.4% - 15%
Cumbria 17% - 6.8%
Southwest Scotland 12.1% - 13.9%
& Northern Ireland
Ireland 10.6% - 45%
Aberdeenshire 8% - 3%
Southeast England 7% - 9.1%
Cornwall 6.3% - 1.1%
East Anglia 4.9% - 0%
Northumbria 4.3% - 3.8%
Orkney& Shetland 2.1% - 2.3%
Islands

This was taken from the "Living DNA users" Facebook group, and was posted on May 22.

Jonathan (username jonathanmcg1990 here on Anthrogenica) used to be more active but was very interested in all things Ulster. You might be interested in the posts he made in the past as well.

Nqp15hhu
11-14-2019, 05:49 PM
You just said they only updated the Irish sample. So he would have to check.

His results on AncestryDNA are very similar to mines btw. So..

90% Ireland and 10% England

sktibo
11-14-2019, 05:59 PM
You just said they only updated the Irish sample. So he would have to check.


No I didn't, I said they DID update the Irish samples. Not when. Did you notice it's a comparison of his results BEFORE and AFTER? After as in, after it was updated, just so we're really clear there.

Nqp15hhu
11-14-2019, 09:07 PM
Yeah and he has nearly the same AncestryDNA percentages as me, so i’m not sure about these results.

How could be such a massive disparity in LivingDna when we have similar percentages on Ancestry?

sktibo
11-15-2019, 12:13 AM
Yeah and he has nearly the same AncestryDNA percentages as me, so i’m not sure about these results.

How could be such a massive disparity in LivingDna when we have similar percentages on Ancestry?

IMO Living DNA is less reliable than Ancestry. Maybe you have a similar ethnic background to Jonathan, I don't know. What I've been pointing out to you is the pattern that I've seen with your results.
Another reason you could have similar percentages on Ancestry but not on Living (but again, I'd take Ancestry over Living if I had to choose) is that Ancestry's Ireland and Scotland category is a combined category featuring reference populations from both Scotland and Ireland.

Don't be sure about any of the results, look at the pattern or the common themes that you see in all of them. Keep looking for DNA relative connections.
And once again, because I'm already here writing this, read the background information to all of this which is easily accessible.
But...
It seems pretty clear that you're just going to keep going down whatever path of thought takes you to one you're more comfortable with, you keep looking for some test or something which will prove a stronger British or English or Scottish or whatever it is you want to find connection and it either isn't going to show it to you because it can't or it will show you another very Irish result. So again, I don't know you or your background but if this is making you that uncomfortable, you should stop your search because all signs are pointing to "you are not going to like what you are going to find."

I won't judge you for deciding it's too much and stopping. I will judge you for staying, testing more, seeing the same thing, and then trying to find some way to morph your result or what you see into something it's not. If you decide to face this head on, read up on it, and really try your best to understand then that's admirable and I'm sure many people here would be thrilled to help you.

JonikW
11-15-2019, 12:52 AM
I'm sceptical about all these tests when it comes to accurately dividing up such closely related populations. Sure, they put you in the right ball park but that's it I reckon. Although Living DNA is the best for me, my South Wales Border is still inflated by maybe 20 percentage points. And Ancestry now gives me a full 10 percent Norwegian, which I don't have. I think it's entirely possible that Nqp15hhu is considerably more British than the tests suggest.

spruithean
11-15-2019, 12:58 AM
We haven’t seen any other Northern Irish living dna so that’s not true

You're rejecting the data from the paper sktibo linked because it doesn't align with your preconceived belief? The answer is fairly clear from the rather large amount of data gathered from the Isles.

sktibo
11-15-2019, 12:59 AM
I'm sceptical about all these tests when it comes to accurately dividing up such closely related populations. Sure, they put you in the right ball park but that's it I reckon. Although Living DNA is the best for me, my South Wales Border is still inflated by maybe 20 percentage points. And Ancestry now gives me a full 10 percent Norwegian, which I don't have. I think it's entirely possible that Nqp15hhu is considerably more British than the tests suggest.

Could be, of course... but I think it could be something like ancestry from Argyll in Scotland or another Scottish region which had some movement to Northern Ireland but is difficult to separate from Ireland genetically.

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 01:05 AM
Explain why Jonathan has such a high percentage of Ireland and Scotland, yet has many GB categories? This would imply that his ancestry result is wrong.

sktibo
11-15-2019, 01:31 AM
Is that a dig at me Skitbo? >:( I did confirm my paternal line to be of Scottish border origin with a Y-DNA test, so stop with that. We don't even know that this is accurate given that Finn has just confirmed that her parents have less British than her, that makes absolutely no sense.

https://i.imgur.com/ecJTixv.png

Here, I moved it into the right thread for you!
Maybe start by trying to read what people write before you respond to them. We can get into the more complicated issues after that. Okay, it's been good, that's all for today I think.

spruithean
11-15-2019, 01:40 AM
Not to dog pile on Nq, but I stress again that the SNP tracker data is based largely off of living people and their self-reported ancestral origin. Moving on from that, sure your paternal line may be indeed Scottish, that doesn't mean that all of your ancestry is such, Y-DNA makes up very little of your overall ancestry.

JerryS.
11-15-2019, 02:48 AM
I "discovered" my Scottish ancestry by research. I figuring the "Scotch-Irish" I was told about long ago was just English being spiced up if you can call it that. after paper research I expected Ulster Scotts or Scottish with a decent bit of Irish, but it turned out in my case there was only a little Irish (and Welsh according to one company), basically mostly Scottish....

JMcB
11-15-2019, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu:
Is that a dig at me Skitbo? >:( I did confirm my paternal line to be of Scottish border origin with a Y-DNA test, so stop with that. We don't even know that this is accurate given that Finn has just confirmed that her parents have less British than her, that makes absolutely no sense.https://i.imgur.com/ecJTixv.png

Hello Nqp15hhu,

Just for the record, our friend Finn is a man. A rather large one (6’3”) as I recall. With the head of a Bell Beaker to boot! ;)

Jessie
11-15-2019, 05:59 AM
Explain why Jonathan has such a high percentage of Ireland and Scotland, yet has many GB categories? This would imply that his ancestry result is wrong.

LivingDNA is just not very accurate at the moment IMO. My fully Irish daughter with ancestry from Connacht, Munster and Leinster came out with only 11% Ireland on LivingDNA. They still haven't updated any of our results there. Meanwhile Ancestry has her as 100% Ireland & Scotland with the correct GCs. The studies that are linked here are very enlightening and interesting. As more research is done and new studies come out more will be known about these populations. From what I've seen all Northwestern Europe is very similar genetically anyway.

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 06:02 AM
So why is my Irish so high then?

Jessie
11-15-2019, 07:02 AM
So why is my Irish so high then?

It is very difficult to tell Scottish from Irish by dna testing. All the major dna companies lump them together so really paper trail would be your best bet. I don't really think they are able to do this satisfactorily with present dna testing. I do believe they can tell them apart with finescale and other methods but no dna testing company will offer this sort of test. Personally your best bet might be to contact some of the people involved in some of the dna studies that work out of UCD in Dublin. Otherwise I don't believe this can be done.

You obviously have some Scottish ancestry but a dna test isn't going to be able to sort this out from your Irish ancestry. Did you get a Scottish or Northern Irish GC at Ancestry? That's also a good way of telling Scots from Irish with the Genetic Communities.

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 08:18 AM
I got both GC's.


https://i.imgur.com/JmagQOWl.png

No Southern GC's which you would expect based on the LivingDNA results.

Jessie
11-15-2019, 08:25 AM
I got both GC's.


https://i.imgur.com/JmagQOWl.png

No Southern GC's which you would expect based on the LivingDNA results.

I think that shows you have definite Scots ancestry. Don't worry about LivingDNA they aren't accurate. The GCs from Ancestry are quite good.

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 08:25 AM
It's very different to LD though.

Jessie
11-15-2019, 08:34 AM
It's very different to LD though.

Yes but LD isn't accurate. All Irish people get significant British results on LDA. Personally I don't think any dna company will be successful with trying to pinpoint ancestry to that degree. They will either make all Irish 100% like other dna companies but then give all sorts of other people some false Irish results. It's always either overfitting or underfitting. Ancestry appear to be doing a pretty good job with their GCs. My Heritage is going to be doing an overhaul of their results and will also use something like GCs in their results so it remains to be seen how successful they will be. I'm still looking forward to it though.

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 08:36 AM
Well, I didn't get too much British lol.

Trelvern
11-15-2019, 09:31 AM
Yes but LD isn't accurate. All Irish people get significant British results on LDA. Personally I don't think any dna company will be successful with trying to pinpoint ancestry to that degree. They will either make all Irish 100% like other dna companies but then give all sorts of other people some false Irish results. It's always either overfitting or underfitting. Ancestry appear to be doing a pretty good job with their GCs. My Heritage is going to be doing an overhaul of their results and will also use something like GCs in their results so it remains to be seen how successful they will be. I'm still looking forward to it though.



i am supposed to be 29% Irish according Living DNA
Nonsense
G25 is more plausible:


Distance to: Trelvern



0.01241020 French_Brittany
0.01258867 Welsh
0.01282019 French_Rennes_Bretagne
0.01324841 English_Cornwall
0.01450093 Scottish
0.01473614 English
0.01491542 Belgian
0.01547404 Orcadian
0.01549221 Irish
0.01584263 French_Nord
0.01647926 French_Paris
0.01679255 Dutch
0.01732476 Norwegian
0.01752579 Shetlandic
0.01832212 Welsh_o
0.01869380 Icelandic
0.01877229 French_Alsace
0.01878996 Swiss_German
0.01902042 French_Occitanie
0.02039123 French_Auvergne
0.02043774 German
0.02178803 French_Prov_Marseille
0.02186493 Swiss_French
0.02206387 French_Provence
0.02237486 Swedish
0.02252271 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02502018 Spanish_Penedes
0.02526213 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02530365 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02556705 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02572064 Spanish_Lleida
0.02592788 Spanish_Navarra
0.02593822 Spanish_Girona
0.02597393 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02606188 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02648497 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02704689 Spanish_Aragon
0.02727391 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.02736918 Spanish_Alacant
0.02772874 Spanish_Valencia
0.02775418 Portuguese
0.02778011 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02796159 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.02796473 Spanish_Cantabria
0.02804301 Spanish_Baleares
0.02835593 Spanish_Cataluna
0.02882567 Austrian
0.02888256 Spanish_Castello
0.02907428 Spanish_Andalucia
0.02937822 Spanish_Extremadura
0.02948293 Spanish_Pirineu
0.02979964 Spanish_Galicia
0.03006622 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03023982 French_South
0.03066737 Spanish_Murcia
0.03096348 Italian_Veneto
0.03100750 Italian_Northeast
0.03112504 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.03131560 Spanish_Menorca
0.03150159 Spanish_Asturias
0.03171350 Italian_Lombardy
0.03219775 German_East
0.03228698 Italian_Bergamo
0.03239280 Italian_Piedmont
0.03280105 Basque_Spanish
0.03292230 Basque_French
0.03319613 Swiss_Italian
0.03374359 Italian_Liguria
0.03430269 Italian_Tuscany
0.03457481 Spanish_Soria
0.03481645 Hungarian
0.03536562 Czech
0.03564172 Spanish_Canarias
0.03654887 Italian_Marche
0.03722709 French_Corsica
0.03745132 Italian_Umbria
0.03780450 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03872251 Italian_Lazio
0.03910256 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige_o
0.03981149 Croatian
0.04024925 Romanian
0.04037592 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04040774 Montenegrin
0.04064955 Slovenian
0.04114720 Finnish
0.04141497 Italian_Molise
0.04146029 Turkish_Balkans
0.04150337 French_Corsica_o
0.04163498 Sicilian_West
0.04173466 Moldavian
0.04175784 Italian_South
0.04275589 Bulgarian
0.04297510 Gagauz
0.04339624 Maltese
0.04348272 Serbian
0.04357581 Sicilian_East
0.04394679 Italian_Northeast_o
0.04400195 Italian_Naples
0.04406016 Italian_Basilica
0.04417490 Italian_Campania

spruithean
11-15-2019, 04:25 PM
Well, I didn't get too much British lol.

Again, Scottish and Irish populations have a shared history that stretches much further back in time than the plantations. The obvious shared ancestry was made quite obvious with the recent papers (especially the most recent one that sktibo provided the link to).

It's not really far-fetched for you to have a such a high Irish result, we do know that a portion of the Catholic population converted to Protestantism at varying points.

sktibo
11-15-2019, 05:12 PM
A lot of people here have chimed in to dismiss Living DNA's results and with that I do not disagree. As I said above in previous posts I'll take Ancestry's results over Living DNA's all day. However...
Living DNA's results have large flaws but like all tests it isn't like they just pull their results out of thin air. As always, points of comparison are how we make the most out of the results we get from commercial tests. What I notice with Living DNA is that they produce scattered results with fracturing percentages and incorrect regions for many people. Of course not everyone receives scattered results, a few Irish testers get fairly "clean" results.
[My definition of Scattered here are the British regions with very small percentages - When someone gets East Anglia 2.6, Lincolnshire 2.1, South Central England 1.6 XYZ, 0.9 and so on.]
But almost everyone seems to have at least one region they do not actually have any ancestry from. This is why Nqp's results are so interesting...
[They were...
Ireland - 85.1%
Northwest Scotland - 8%
Cumbria - 5.1%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland - 1.8%]

There are so few regions here, and it strikes me as very unusual for Living DNA to so narrowly define someone's ancestry with their results. The odds are that at least one of his assigned regions are incorrect based on comparison to the results of others, but that is more likely to be one of the smaller regions. As Jessie pointed out, look to Ancestry's genetic communities, first and foremost. I completely agree. But I also don't think one should disregard the results from this test entirely either, considering it's so narrowly defined. It is consistent with the pattern of having more native Irish ancestry than his family history states, or, more of his ancestry from Scotland comes from a region which is more similar to the Irish than to the lowland Scottish, Argyll comes to mind as a region that fits this genetic description and also had some historical migration to Ulster.

Another refresher on the context of this discussion:
No one is saying or has said that he does not have any Scottish ancestry. What his results indicate is that his Irish ancestry is much higher than his known ancestry indicates, but some of us are very quick to forget all contextual basis. At the least, Nqp did point out that Jonathan McGuiness received a nearly identical Ancestry estimate to him (Though I have not checked this and am taking Nqp's word for it) and Jonathan's background is 50% native Irish 50% Ulster Scot.

spruithean
11-15-2019, 05:15 PM
I'm willing to bet that a significant portion of what could be deemed "Scottish" is being lumped in with his Irish result at AncestryDNA. While it's possible to actually find minute differences between these populations for a consumer DNA testing company it'd be like splitting hairs.

Matches to real people are much more telling of your ancestry, in regards to whether they follow your known paper trail or not.

sktibo
11-15-2019, 05:18 PM
I will to bet that a significant portion of what could be deemed "Scottish" is being lumped in with his Irish result at AncestryDNA. While it's possible to actually find minute differences between these populations for a consumer DNA testing company it'd be like splitting hairs.


As mentioned in post 10 paragraph one, yes.

In regards to matching, Nqp has made at least one thread about that subject, see https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18926-Wondering-if-my-Great-Grandmother-is-not-related-to-me
Also
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18914-How-do-you-confirm-a-particular-line-in-your-tree-is-%93true%94

Based on what he has posted, it looks like neither the ethnicity estimates nor the matches meet his expectations. That may help people understand the basis for my theory as seen in both posts number 4 and 10.

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 05:35 PM
Again, Scottish and Irish populations have a shared history that stretches much further back in time than the plantations. The obvious shared ancestry was made quite obvious with the recent papers (especially the most recent one that sktibo provided the link to).

It's not really far-fetched for you to have a such a high Irish result, we do know that a portion of the Catholic population converted to Protestantism at varying points.

My Protestant lines aren’t converts though...

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 05:36 PM
A lot of people here have chimed in to dismiss Living DNA's results and with that I do not disagree. As I said above in previous posts I'll take Ancestry's results over Living DNA's all day. However...
Living DNA's results have large flaws but like all tests it isn't like they just pull their results out of thin air. As always, points of comparison are how we make the most out of the results we get from commercial tests. What I notice with Living DNA is that they produce scattered results with fracturing percentages and incorrect regions for many people. Of course not everyone receives scattered results, a few Irish testers get fairly "clean" results.
[My definition of Scattered here are the British regions with very small percentages - When someone gets East Anglia 2.6, Lincolnshire 2.1, South Central England 1.6 XYZ, 0.9 and so on.]
But almost everyone seems to have at least one region they do not actually have any ancestry from. This is why Nqp's results are so interesting...
[They were...
Ireland - 85.1%
Northwest Scotland - 8%
Cumbria - 5.1%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland - 1.8%]

There are so few regions here, and it strikes me as very unusual for Living DNA to so narrowly define someone's ancestry with their results. The odds are that at least one of his assigned regions are incorrect based on comparison to the results of others, but that is more likely to be one of the smaller regions. As Jessie pointed out, look to Ancestry's genetic communities, first and foremost. I completely agree. But I also don't think one should disregard the results from this test entirely either, considering it's so narrowly defined. It is consistent with the pattern of having more native Irish ancestry than his family history states, or, more of his ancestry from Scotland comes from a region which is more similar to the Irish than to the lowland Scottish, Argyll comes to mind as a region that fits this genetic description and also had some historical migration to Ulster.

Another refresher on the context of this discussion:
No one is saying or has said that he does not have any Scottish ancestry. What his results indicate is that his Irish ancestry is much higher than his known ancestry indicates, but some of us are very quick to forget all contextual basis. At the least, Nqp did point out that Jonathan McGuiness received a nearly identical Ancestry estimate to him (Though I have not checked this and am taking Nqp's word for it) and Jonathan's background is 50% native Irish 50% Ulster Scot.

You really desperate to disprove my Ulster Scots ancestry. It’s actually becoming quite irritating now.

sktibo
11-15-2019, 05:40 PM
You really desperate to disprove my Ulster Scots ancestry. It’s actually becoming quite irritating now.

Read it again, you didn't read it if that is your response. You need to read the whole post if you wish to have a conversation okay?

And, might I add, that I really hope you will because the reason I am still here is that I do wish to have a conversation about your results which I clearly find very interesting.

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 05:51 PM
I don’t want to have a conversation.

sktibo
11-15-2019, 05:55 PM
I don’t want to have a conversation.

There it is, okay, thanks very much.

spruithean
11-15-2019, 06:12 PM
My Protestant lines aren’t converts though...

And where does your paper trail stop? You have your family tree definitively back to the beginning of the plantation era?


You really desperate to disprove my Ulster Scots ancestry. It’s actually becoming quite irritating now.

No, I highly doubt that is sktibo's motive here. It seems like you are rather unwilling to read the data from an actual scientific paper that has sampled several groups of people throughout the Isles. Read the paper. Hell, read the excerpts you've been provided with.


I don’t want to have a conversation.

Okay, then what do you want?

sktibo
11-15-2019, 06:29 PM
Okay, then what do you want?

That's just the thing, isn't it. He's about 1000 posts in, asking the same questions over and over again, despite the fact that so many people have kindly answered these for him many times. While I don't know for sure because I'm not him, the evidence from the long conversations I've had with him on multiple threads highly suggests that he was hoping to find a strong genetic connection to the planters in his ancestry but instead found the opposite, so instead of trying to read up on the facts and consider the data he's been presented with logically he just keeps asking the same thing and hoping to get a different answer. I don't know if the fact that he doesn't seem to comprehend even what he responds to in quotes is intentional or not, but I get the feeling that the cultural context he is coming from is rather more complicated than the one I come from which is why this is such a difficult experience for him. So, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt that this must be pretty difficult for him to come to terms with, but I do think it's a bit irritating that so many people have taken the time to answer his questions and threads and he just continually disregards the information he has been helpfully supplied with.
If he actually believed that everything was as he wanted it to be or expected it to be, he wouldn't still be here. That's for sure. If he isn't going to start assessing or using the information he has been given then the least he can do is stop posting.

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 07:23 PM
And where does your paper trail stop? You have your family tree definitively back to the beginning of the plantation era?



No, I highly doubt that is sktibo's motive here. It seems like you are rather unwilling to read the data from an actual scientific paper that has sampled several groups of people throughout the Isles. Read the paper. Hell, read the excerpts you've been provided with.



Okay, then what do you want?

These lines are definitely not Catholic converts. I’ve already proven my paternal y line to be border Scottish and the other lines spelt in a British way. I also have some matches that point the names to be from Scotland.

spruithean
11-15-2019, 10:15 PM
These lines are definitely not Catholic converts. I’ve already proven my paternal y line to be border Scottish and the other lines spelt in a British way. I also have some matches that point the names to be from Scotland.

Your Y-line is one singular lineage out of an exponential number of other ancestors with each prior generation. They all contributed a fair bit more at this point in time. Surnames "spelt the British way"? Spelling is most certainly not a reliable predictor of anything, especially as we move further and further into the past as spelling of names was more fluid and very lenient (wasn't uncommon for multiple different spellings in one document).

I urge you to read the paper that was linked earlier, it contains a very good conclusion of data and specific clustering that would very much answer many of your questions.

FionnSneachta
11-15-2019, 10:16 PM
You already seem to know what your ancestry is so I'm not sure why it needs to be validated with ethnicity estimates from different companies. If my DNA matches confirmed what I already knew my ancestry to be (i.e. no NPEs introducing possible other sources of ancestry admixture), I wouldn't give the ethnicity estimates much heed even if they told me I had a big chunk of ancestry from a neighbouring country. I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to decipher the results of these ethnicity estimates from different companies if you are already certain of your ancestry.

spruithean
11-15-2019, 10:18 PM
You already seem to know what your ancestry is so I'm not sure why it needs to be validated with ethnicity estimates from different companies. If my DNA matches confirmed what I already knew my ancestry to be (i.e. no NPEs introducing possible other sources of ancestry admixture), I wouldn't give the ethnicity estimates much heed even if they told me I had a big chunck of ancestry from a neighbouring country. I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to decipher the results of these ethnicity estimates from different companies if you are already certain of your ancestry.

This. But again, the estimated ethnicities should not be a shock considering what we've learned from various scientific papers about the Isles. It's all rather reasonable.

Nqp15hhu
11-15-2019, 11:42 PM
I find it patronising that two users would be telling me that I got my ancestry wrong. I’ve done my family tree, I know exactly what it is.

spruithean
11-15-2019, 11:56 PM
I find it patronising that two users would be telling me that I got my ancestry wrong. I’ve done my family tree, I know exactly what it is.

Ah yes, because that's what we said. No on said that. We're simply telling you that the answer to your question about the ethnicity estimation could be readily answered by scientific papers which you've clearly ignored.

Nqp15hhu
11-16-2019, 12:02 AM
Ulster Scots lines that i’ve CONFIRMED through DNA matching. I have lots of matches who have these people in their family trees.

Irwin - GGG Grandmothers Line: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Irvine-126

Patton - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Patton-247

I also have some surnames in my family tree that have to be Scottish such Sinclair and Black. There is no way that these surnames aren’t Scottish.

Here is a snapshot of my Y-DNA matches to prove to Spru that it’s not fake.

https://imgur.com/pFNb4qH

I also have over 100 y-67 matches on FTDNA from Elliott’s and McCleans so obviously not Irish LOL

sktibo
11-16-2019, 12:06 AM
I'm no longer sure if this is serious or if it's a troll account.
I am now thoroughly confused by what I think may be the worst reading comprehension ability I've ever seen. I do not understand how someone could misinterpret every post without it being intentional.
At least the DNA test results were interesting..
But now I wonder if this has all been fabricated.

Would not be the first time that's happened here for sure.

spruithean
11-16-2019, 12:09 AM
Ulster Scots lines that i’ve CONFIRMED through DNA matching. I have lots of matches who have these people in their family trees.

Irwin - GGG Grandmothers Line: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Irvine-126

Patton - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Patton-247

I also have some surnames in my family tree that have to be Scottish such Sinclair and Black. There is no way that it isn’t Scottish.

Here is a snapshot of my Y-DNA matches to prove to Spru that it’s not fake.

https://imgur.com/pFNb4qH

I also have over 100 y-67 matches on FTDNA from Elliott’s and McCleans so obviously not Irish LOL

Again no one ever said you weren't this or that. You inquired about high Irish results, the answers to that question were provided and you've blatantly ignored it. Scotland and Ireland cluster together because of a shared history.

I didn't say your Y-DNA was fake, that's you misinterpreting me.

Nqp15hhu
11-16-2019, 12:12 AM
Excuse me? Northern Ireland has been a battle ground for hundreds of years. Of course we’re going to be offended at someone telling us that we don’t know our ancestry or family tree, and that our line is full of converts. As if I am some sort of thick liar.

A hello...

spruithean
11-16-2019, 12:18 AM
Excuse me? Northern Ireland has been a battle ground for hundreds of years. Of course we’re going to be offended at someone telling us that we don’t know our ancestry or family tree, and that our line is full of converts. As if I am some sort of thick liar.

A hello...

I'm fully aware. It was a suggestion that could be considered in some areas of one's tree if things don't quite make sense. A suggestion, an idea for one to consider, and a legitimate reality for some people.

Did you read what has been said about the explanations for the ethnicity estimations? Did you read the paper? You've asked the question and rejected answers.

Garimund
11-16-2019, 12:28 AM
Again no one ever said you weren't this or that. You inquired about high Irish results, the answers to that question were provided and you've blatantly ignored it. Scotland and Ireland cluster together because of a shared history.

I didn't say your Y-DNA was fake, that's you misinterpreting me.

Nqp, that’s the answer to your enquiery. Looking at your AncestryDNA results, you are clearly Northern Irish. I feel like I’ve lost brain cells reading the same argument over and over.

Btw I’m also descended from the Irwin and Wylie family line.

Nqp15hhu
11-16-2019, 12:33 AM
I have only found ONE convert line in my tree, the McSheffrey’s and that conversion was way back in the late 1700’s.

My GGG grandmother was an Irwin. I believe her to be descendant of the above Irwin and Wylie movement from Glencoe/Aberdeenshire.

I think my Thompson line is from Lancashire due to an abnormal number of Thompson matches from there.

Garimund
11-16-2019, 12:50 AM
I have only found ONE convert line in my tree, the McSheffrey’s and that conversion was way back in the late 1700’s.

My GGG grandmother was an Irwin. I believe her to be descendant of the above Irwin and Wylie movement from Glencoe/Aberdeenshire.

I think my Thompson line is from Lancashire due to an abnormal number of Thompson matches from there.

I have McDowell ancestors who were intermarried with the Irvine and Wylie families in Glencoe, Raloo Parish.. I see the same family names intermarrying over and over and remaining together from Scotland to Ireland to the US. I’d love to visit some of those cemeteries over there. I’ve read in Raloo parish, some of the oldest McDowell headstones over there contain the coats of arms of the McDowells of Garthland which would be cool to see.

FionnSneachta
11-16-2019, 12:58 AM
I have only found ONE convert line in my tree, the McSheffrey’s and that conversion was way back in the late 1700’s.

My GGG grandmother was an Irwin. I believe her to be descendant of the above Irwin and Wylie movement from Glencoe/Aberdeenshire.

I think my Thompson line is from Lancashire due to an abnormal number of Thompson matches from there.

It was merely a suggestion by a user that there could be convert lines that might increase the Irish percentage. You suggested the same to me by saying, 'You must have a sizeable chunk of Protestant ancestry. How can you not be aware of that?' Actually that wasn't even a suggestion but saying that I do have it which is telling me that I don't know my own tree or ancestry. I didn't take offence to it. Questions were asked and people made suggestions. I think that the answer that is going to be the most satisfactory is that Ireland and Scotland are too similar to be separated correctly by Living DNA and Ancestry (who don't attempt to split it).