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Sikeliot
11-15-2019, 06:33 PM
Do modern Berbers differ from Guanche samples in terms of SSA and SW Asian?

Angoliga
11-15-2019, 07:46 PM
Using G25 proxies, Guanches appear closest to North-Moroccans compared to all modern North-West Africans:

https://i.imgur.com/88tjLuZ.png

In terms of SSA, aboriginal Guanches appear more or less the same to modern N-Moroccans, the only difference is the latter's slightly higher Dinka (Ancestral-East African) affinities.
Ancestral residue perhaps from the neolithic sub-pluvial (green-sahara period) which would of course be less distant to modern NW-Africans.


Here's the same run with other Berbers/North-West Africans:

https://i.imgur.com/LnyHbkL.png

Their SW-Asian affinities appear more complex when additional Levant proxies are used:

https://i.imgur.com/vyVxtgp.png

Source samples used (w/ all levants):

KEN_LSA,-0.522448,0.044683,-0.010936,0.006137,0.004308,-0.006414,0.085309,-0.06692,0.076287,-0.06925,-0.011367,0.010491,-0.033003,0.000138,0.00855,-0.014983,0.021383,0.038513,-0.002137,-0.005253,-0.007612,-0.002968,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000718
ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32E-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_Canaanite_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
Levant_ISR_C,0.0886623,0.1666536,-0.046763,-0.135219,0.0157761,-0.0622661,-0.0120351,-0.0113436,0.0529071,0.0342603,0.0145636,-0.0154914,0.0330965,0.0045705,-0.0154936,0.0029309,-0.0032528,0.0040806,0.0034931,0.0089778,0.0023839, 0.0086492,-0.0027244,-0.0019723,-0.0039579
Levant_ISR_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053
Levant_LBN_MA_Euro,0.1248263,0.1391273,0.0551857,0 .0273473,0.0379557,0.0087387,-0.0031333,0.006461,0.0126123,0.012453,-0.0053587,0.010191,-0.0110503,-0.011239,0.0116267,-0.0011493,-0.002955,0.0013513,0.0011733,0.0042103,0.0083187,0 .005523,-0.000616,-0.0008837,0.0018763
Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed,0.093904,0.148775,0.0052795,-0.027455,0.0238505,-0.0124105,-0.0030555,0.002769,0.008283,0.0190435,0.002923,0.0 062195,-0.0080275,-0.010666,-0.0010855,-0.0026515,0.002673,-0.0018365,-0.0022625,6.25e-05,0.0009355,-0.002102,0.005238,0.005362,0.003353
Levant_LBN_MA_NE,0.085652,0.150552,-0.0499688,-0.0856758,-0.0080785,-0.0284468,-0.0062278,-0.0122302,0.0030168,0.0139868,0.0088098,-0.0060698,0.009923,6.88e-05,-0.0090595,0.0023203,-0.0001955,-0.001869,0.004431,-0.0074722,-0.0028075,0.0007108,-0.0050838,0.0027112,0.0041315
Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0873592,0.1459822,-0.057605,-0.0873715,-0.0110788,-0.0278195,-0.007814,-0.0074422,0.0077718,0.0132578,0.0027202,-0.009704,0.012859,-0.0026492,-0.0096022,0.0102428,0.001695,-0.001172,0.0026085,0.0033142,-0.0002497,0.0044825,-0.003574,-0.0008438,-0.00479
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Gambian,-0.6064875,0.0671942,0.0197362,0.0114665,0.0021028, 0.0055777,-0.0358392,0.0387677,-0.0317353,0.0241463,0.0054132,-0.0036467,0.0162287,-0.0009865,0.011016,-0.0153362,0.009692,-0.0011823,-0.002116,-0.0032307,-0.001643,-0.0018137,0.0043958,-0.0001005,0.001377
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0455292,0.0660095,-0.1518855,0.0026648,-0.1250232,0.0204982,0.0170972,-0.0017305,-0.0814005,-0.0579968,0.0004465,-0.001611,0.0072845,-0.0087735,0.0294512,0.0567152,-0.005248,0.0084882,0.007259,-0.037018,0.0075492,-0.0286258,-0.010322,-0.0404578,0.0265842
ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111, 0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018 041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
Basque_French,0.128051,0.1520246,0.0551727,0.01282 31,0.0564104,0.0025099,-0.00141,0.0033229,0.0305968,0.0412036,-0.0092724,0.0103408,-0.0209761,-0.0140237,0.0132192,-0.0019359,-0.0119173,0.0030278,-0.0007165,-0.0044144,0.010157,0.0024855,-0.0086397,-0.0091698,7.18E-05
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

Megalophias
11-15-2019, 08:05 PM
Berbers are highly varied. Guanches I think fall on the low end of the Berber range in both Sub-Saharan and Levantine ancestry, and on the higher end in European-related ancestry.

Scaled 25 models (poulation averages):
Ancient Guanches - 33% Taforalt, 23% Iberia SW EN, 23% Sidon BA, 13% Ardea IA, 7% Pemba 600BP - 1.4584%
Chenini Berbers - 33% Taforalt, 23% Iberia SW EN, 29% Sidon BA, 10% Ardea IA, 5% Pemba 600BP - 2.1080%
Sened Berbers - 24% Taforalt, 17% Iberia SW EN, 46% Sidon BA, 3% Ardea IA, 9% Pemba 600BP - 1.7605%
Tiznit Berbers - 40% Taforalt, 28% Iberia SW EN, 20% Sidon BA, 0% Ardea IA, 12% Pemba 600BP - 2.2658%
Errachidia Berbers - 34% Taforalt, 24% Iberia SW EN, 24% Sidon BA, 4% Ardea IA, 13% Pemba 600BP - 1.9195%
Mozabite Berbers - 32% Taforalt, 21% Iberia SW EN, 27% Sidon BA, 10% Ardea IA, 11% Pemba 600BP - 1.9770%
Timimoun Berbers - 20% Taforalt, 13% Iberia SW EN, 20% Sidon BA, 1% Ardea IA, 47% Pemba 600BP - 3.0953%

PS Totally ninjaed

Amhas
11-16-2019, 02:02 PM
Using G25 proxies, Guanches appear closest to North-Moroccans compared to all modern North-West Africans:

https://i.imgur.com/88tjLuZ.png

In terms of SSA, aboriginal Guanches appear more or less the same to modern N-Moroccans, the only difference is the latter's slightly higher Dinka (Ancestral-East African) affinities.
Ancestral residue perhaps from the neolithic sub-pluvial (green-sahara period) which would of course be less distant to modern NW-Africans.


Here's the same run with other Berbers/North-West Africans:

https://i.imgur.com/LnyHbkL.png

Their SW-Asian affinities appear more complex when additional Levant proxies are used:

https://i.imgur.com/vyVxtgp.png

Source samples used (w/ all levants):

KEN_LSA,-0.522448,0.044683,-0.010936,0.006137,0.004308,-0.006414,0.085309,-0.06692,0.076287,-0.06925,-0.011367,0.010491,-0.033003,0.000138,0.00855,-0.014983,0.021383,0.038513,-0.002137,-0.005253,-0.007612,-0.002968,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000718
ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32E-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_Canaanite_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
Levant_ISR_C,0.0886623,0.1666536,-0.046763,-0.135219,0.0157761,-0.0622661,-0.0120351,-0.0113436,0.0529071,0.0342603,0.0145636,-0.0154914,0.0330965,0.0045705,-0.0154936,0.0029309,-0.0032528,0.0040806,0.0034931,0.0089778,0.0023839, 0.0086492,-0.0027244,-0.0019723,-0.0039579
Levant_ISR_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053
Levant_LBN_MA_Euro,0.1248263,0.1391273,0.0551857,0 .0273473,0.0379557,0.0087387,-0.0031333,0.006461,0.0126123,0.012453,-0.0053587,0.010191,-0.0110503,-0.011239,0.0116267,-0.0011493,-0.002955,0.0013513,0.0011733,0.0042103,0.0083187,0 .005523,-0.000616,-0.0008837,0.0018763
Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed,0.093904,0.148775,0.0052795,-0.027455,0.0238505,-0.0124105,-0.0030555,0.002769,0.008283,0.0190435,0.002923,0.0 062195,-0.0080275,-0.010666,-0.0010855,-0.0026515,0.002673,-0.0018365,-0.0022625,6.25e-05,0.0009355,-0.002102,0.005238,0.005362,0.003353
Levant_LBN_MA_NE,0.085652,0.150552,-0.0499688,-0.0856758,-0.0080785,-0.0284468,-0.0062278,-0.0122302,0.0030168,0.0139868,0.0088098,-0.0060698,0.009923,6.88e-05,-0.0090595,0.0023203,-0.0001955,-0.001869,0.004431,-0.0074722,-0.0028075,0.0007108,-0.0050838,0.0027112,0.0041315
Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0873592,0.1459822,-0.057605,-0.0873715,-0.0110788,-0.0278195,-0.007814,-0.0074422,0.0077718,0.0132578,0.0027202,-0.009704,0.012859,-0.0026492,-0.0096022,0.0102428,0.001695,-0.001172,0.0026085,0.0033142,-0.0002497,0.0044825,-0.003574,-0.0008438,-0.00479
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Gambian,-0.6064875,0.0671942,0.0197362,0.0114665,0.0021028, 0.0055777,-0.0358392,0.0387677,-0.0317353,0.0241463,0.0054132,-0.0036467,0.0162287,-0.0009865,0.011016,-0.0153362,0.009692,-0.0011823,-0.002116,-0.0032307,-0.001643,-0.0018137,0.0043958,-0.0001005,0.001377
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0455292,0.0660095,-0.1518855,0.0026648,-0.1250232,0.0204982,0.0170972,-0.0017305,-0.0814005,-0.0579968,0.0004465,-0.001611,0.0072845,-0.0087735,0.0294512,0.0567152,-0.005248,0.0084882,0.007259,-0.037018,0.0075492,-0.0286258,-0.010322,-0.0404578,0.0265842
ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111, 0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018 041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
Basque_French,0.128051,0.1520246,0.0551727,0.01282 31,0.0564104,0.0025099,-0.00141,0.0033229,0.0305968,0.0412036,-0.0092724,0.0103408,-0.0209761,-0.0140237,0.0132192,-0.0019359,-0.0119173,0.0030278,-0.0007165,-0.0044144,0.010157,0.0024855,-0.0086397,-0.0091698,7.18E-05
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

Actually when you use individual results instead of averages, Guanches look pretty much normal for Central and Northern Moroccans, they fall inside the Moroccan cluster.

Nebro
12-10-2019, 08:39 PM
Yes , modern north africans have actual sub-saharan admixture , while guanches had ancestry that came from Iberomaurusians.(which isn't actual sub-saharan admixture) you can search about
that in the Taforalt affinity there's several posts about it.
in Algerians for example there's a decrease on the native north african ancestry but increase in sub-saharan admixture.(so this increase is real admixture and different from the admixture observed in guanches)
while isolated Berbers like Mozabite, show the closest relation still they all have been influenced by the slave trade..and the admixture is also partially un-related to guanches but represent actual admixture events dated to the arab slave trade.
the closest to guanches , are mozabite and northern moroccans , even so Guanches were from southern Morocco originally.

Megalophias
12-10-2019, 09:03 PM
Guanches come up with minor Sub-Saharan ancestry on top of Taforalt in the models posted above. They also have a good deal of mt hg L3b1a, which is probably West African. So I'd be surprised if they don't have actual Sub-Saharan ancestry.

Angoliga
12-10-2019, 09:37 PM
Guanches come up with minor Sub-Saharan ancestry on top of Taforalt in the models posted above. They also have a good deal of mt hg L3b1a, which is probably West African. So I'd be surprised if they don't have actual Sub-Saharan ancestry.

Indeed.

Fun fact: L2e is detected among Guanches from La Palma (Fregel, 2009 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2986650/)); same mt hg as my paternal grandmother (old lady in my avatar)

It's also detected (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?241-L2e-(previoulsy-L2d2)-in-French-Guiana-and-beyond&p=147881&viewfull=1#post147881) in mainland Morocco, with a higher concentration in and around the Lake Chad basin.

Michalis Moriopoulos
12-10-2019, 10:13 PM
Is anyone else getting Yamnaya ancestry when they test the Guanche for basic components?

I tried testing more proximate components, and they prefer Beaker_Iberia over Yamnaya. That would seem to be the most plausible source of steppe ancestry, but I should also concede they prefer the Szolad Lombard (Northern profile only) and Visigoth Iberia averages over Beaker_Iberia when I test them all together. Still, I find it very hard to believe the Germanics ever reached the Canary Isles. If the steppe ancestry is real, I think Beaker is the only reasonable choice.

Angoliga
12-10-2019, 10:30 PM
Is anyone else getting Yamnaya ancestry when they test the Guanche for basic components?

I tried testing more proximate components, and they prefer Beaker_Iberia over Yamnaya. That would seem to be the most plausible source of steppe ancestry, but I should also concede they prefer the Szolad Lombard (Northern profile only) and Visigoth Iberia averages over Beaker_Iberia when I test them all together. Still, I find it very hard to believe the Germanics ever reached the Canary Isles. If the steppe ancestry is real, I think Beaker is the only reasonable choice.

I'm seeing a sizable affinity but it's on a *very rudimentary run:

https://i.imgur.com/7Us5J0D.png

Bealfire
12-10-2019, 11:19 PM
Yes , modern north africans have actual sub-saharan admixture , while guanches had ancestry that came from Iberomaurusians.(which isn't actual sub-saharan admixture) you can search about
that in the Taforalt affinity there's several posts about it.
in Algerians for example there's a decrease on the native north african ancestry but increase in sub-saharan admixture.(so this increase is real admixture and different from the admixture observed in guanches)
while isolated Berbers like Mozabite, show the closest relation still they all have been influenced by the slave trade..and the admixture is also partially un-related to guanches but represent actual admixture events dated to the arab slave trade.
the closest to guanches , are mozabite and northern moroccans , even so Guanches were from southern Morocco originally.

Lol, how do you know that?

A likely scenario for Canaries is that they were discovered by Carthaginian expeditions into Africa. They even reached Guinea.

Once discovered people naturally came to settle coming via Phoenician harbors such as Tangiers, Sale and Azilah which lie in the Nothern Morocco. The most southern Carthaginian harbor of Morocco is Mazagan (nearby Casablanca).

It would kinda match the profile of Guanches ranging from very Riffian-like to something abit noticeably southern and higher in Iberomaurusian ancestry.

Carthage's destruction would have put the islands into isolation and without Carthaginians and Numidians coming back and forth regularly people became isolated.

Nebro
12-11-2019, 04:54 AM
I'm seeing a sizable affinity but it's on a *very rudimentary run:

https://i.imgur.com/7Us5J0D.png

This can't be accounted as affinity unless you add Iranic neolithic source or CHG.


Lol, how do you know that?

A likely scenario for Canaries is that they were discovered by Carthaginian expeditions into Africa. They even reached Guinea.

Once discovered people naturally came to settle coming via Phoenician harbors such as Tangiers, Sale and Azilah which lie in the Nothern Morocco. The most southern Carthaginian harbor of Morocco is Mazagan (nearby Casablanca).

It would kinda match the profile of Guanches ranging from very Riffian-like to something abit noticeably southern and higher in Iberomaurusian ancestry.

Carthage's destruction would have put the islands into isolation and without Carthaginians and Numidians coming back and forth regularly people became isolated.

Canary isalnds are near southern morroco which make it plausible that the people who migrated there were from southern Morocco ,
The people who migrated to the islands were berber speakers not Phenocians.

the http://nicerthannew.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Canary-islands-map-from-planetware-4.jpg


Guanches come up with minor Sub-Saharan ancestry on top of Taforalt in the models posted above. They also have a good deal of mt hg L3b1a, which is probably West African. So I'd be surprised if they don't have actual Sub-Saharan ancestry.

they were 3 samples from Gran Canaria only not the other islands which showed only eurasian related lineages , i would be cautious about drawing conclusions here.
I think the study of Fregel 2009 studied studied more samples and it showed 7% lineages, this would be more accurate as a reference of there maternal affinity.

The majority of lineages (93%) were from West Eurasian origin, being the rest (7%) from sub-Saharan African ascription.

This interested comment from the guanche's study , clearly shows that the african admixture found in modern north africans is very different from the one observed in guanches;
as the guanches share more drift with europeans than they do with modern north africans.

However, outgroup f3 statistics [19] suggest that the Guanches share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with African test populations, including Northwest African populations of Berber origin (Data S1, sheet 2). This observation is inconsistent with the PCA and the uniparental genetic marker data, indicating that the outgroup f3 statistic may be misleading, possibly due to the complex history of recent sub-Saharan admixture events in North African populations [12, 21] and the sensitivity of the f3 estimator to such patterns. This issue seems to extend to other statistics based on allele frequency correlations such as the D statistic [19] since D(Outgroup, Guanches; North African, Sardinian/Anatolian farmer) consistently produces highly significant positive values of D (Z > 4), which would imply a closer relationship between Guanches and Sardinians and Anatolian farmers than between Guanches and North African populations

E_M81_I3A
12-11-2019, 06:32 AM
TThis interested comment from the guanche's study , clearly shows that the african admixture found in modern north africans is very different from the one observed in guanches;
as the guanches share more drift with europeans than they do with modern north africans.

"However, outgroup f3 statistics [19] suggest that the Guanches share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with African test populations, including Northwest African populations of Berber origin (Data S1, sheet 2). This observation is inconsistent with the PCA and the uniparental genetic marker data, indicating that the outgroup f3 statistic may be misleading, possibly due to the complex history of recent sub-Saharan admixture events in North African populations [12, 21] and the sensitivity of the f3 estimator to such patterns. This issue seems to extend to other statistics based on allele frequency correlations such as the D statistic [19] since D(Outgroup, Guanches; North African, Sardinian/Anatolian farmer) consistently produces highly significant positive values of D (Z > 4), which would imply a closer relationship between Guanches and Sardinians and Anatolian farmers than between Guanches and North African populations ".

In fact regarding outgroup f3 statistics, this is the same for modern Northwest African populations, outgroup f3 statistics also show they share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with other modern Northwest African populations….

See table s2 in the Supplemental information (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cub.2017.09.059/attachment/04ac8bf7-1767-44c7-97c5-a3748056b523/mmc1.pdf) of Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela study you quoted.

https://i.ibb.co/7kX3SZQ/S2table.jpg (https://ibb.co/g430rfd)

As it can be seen, with stat f3 the populations closest to modern Algerians, Tunisians, Mozabites and Saharawi are also, like for the Guanches, Sardinians and Basques and not the other modern populations of North Africa. This is also the same with other measurements of genetic similarity.

This is one of the reasons why the authors conclude "that these statistics are not suitable to identify the modern population most similar to Guanches in the sense that we intend it for this study"

E_M81_I3A
12-11-2019, 06:55 AM
And here are Guanches distances to modern populations (Global 25 scaled/Vahaduo) :

https://i.ibb.co/d4Nm5V1/gun002.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/0y8FfKr/gun005.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/wYyf1Br/008.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/93gJkgc/gun011.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/JHQmgLg/gun012.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Angoliga
12-11-2019, 07:09 AM
This can't be accounted as affinity unless you add Iranic neolithic source or CHG.

Those runs actually did include both IRN_N and CHG source samples; they just didn't pick anything non-negligible in those "rudimentary" runs.


Source samples (scaled):
KEN_LSA,-0.522448,0.044683,-0.010936,0.006137,0.004308,-0.006414,0.085309,-0.06692,0.076287,-0.06925,-0.011367,0.010491,-0.033003,0.000138,0.00855,-0.014983,0.021383,0.038513,-0.002137,-0.005253,-0.007612,-0.002968,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000718
ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.088351,0.044123,0.110144,-0.032006,0.038487,0.00799,0.002308,-0.05788,-0.076721,-0.002761,-0.002398,0.000743,-0.021056,0.033387,0.01485,0.004955,-0.008235,-0.002263,0.015007,0.002121,0.003462,0.002958,0.023 256,0.002874
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0455292,0.0660095,-0.1518855,0.0026648,-0.1250232,0.0204982,0.0170972,-0.0017305,-0.0814005,-0.0579968,0.0004465,-0.001611,0.0072845,-0.0087735,0.0294512,0.0567152,-0.005248,0.0084882,0.007259,-0.037018,0.0075492,-0.0286258,-0.010322,-0.0404578,0.0265842
ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111, 0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018 041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5.00E-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191
MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

Nebro
12-11-2019, 11:55 AM
In fact regarding outgroup f3 statistics, this is the same for modern Northwest African populations, outgroup f3 statistics also show they share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with other modern Northwest African populations….

See table s2 in the Supplemental information (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cub.2017.09.059/attachment/04ac8bf7-1767-44c7-97c5-a3748056b523/mmc1.pdf) of Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela study you quoted.

https://i.ibb.co/7kX3SZQ/S2table.jpg (https://ibb.co/g430rfd)

As it can be seen, with stat f3 the populations closest to modern Algerians, Tunisians, Mozabites and Saharawi are also, like for the Guanches, Sardinians and Basques and not the other modern populations of North Africa. This is also the same with other measurements of genetic similarity.

This is one of the reasons why the authors conclude "that these statistics are not suitable to identify the modern population most similar to Guanches in the sense that we intend it for this study"

I know that its not suitable to identify the modern population most similar, but its usefulness here , Is that it shows variation depending on the highly divergent sub-saharan source.
I would have hoped to see the same test with all the populations tested same as the Guanches were used against most Eurasians in the data s1-sheet 2.
as for the distances to modern and ancients berbers , this doesn't deny that modern berber's sub-saharan admixture is a result of a later sub-saharan event.

ChildofMud
12-12-2019, 03:38 AM
Are Guanches a good reference for Pre-Islamic expansion North Africans?

Seabass
12-12-2019, 03:44 AM
Are Guanches a good reference for Pre-Islamic expansion North Africans?

I would like to know this too. If I wish to model modern populations with ancient populations I like to use guanche ID 11 alone as a berber proxy as opposed to using Tunisian berber Chen. In deeper nmonte runs iberomarusians I think are useful if you want to verify whether yes or no modern populations have trace North African biogeographic ancestry or not

Generalissimo
12-12-2019, 03:46 AM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17uYt-v4tBNj6maoA03RqDPkOOFx3LCwt

Amhas
12-12-2019, 02:27 PM
Are Guanches a good reference for Pre-Islamic expansion North Africans?

They aren't a reference for all north Africans, they are part of a wider group.

https://i.imgur.com/gMQL4PZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/EswnNrp.png

https://i.imgur.com/Nu5USlW.png

Ajeje Brazorf
12-13-2019, 06:21 PM
How did Steppe ancestry arrive in the Canarias?

https://i.imgur.com/I37lop6.png

Ruderico
12-13-2019, 06:24 PM
How did Steppe ancestry arrive in the Canarias?

Bell Beaker influence reached Morocco, so probably it either jumped from there to Canarias, or it arrived in both areas at around the same period.

Ajeje Brazorf
12-13-2019, 07:46 PM
Bell Beaker influence reached Morocco, so probably it either jumped from there to Canarias, or it arrived in both areas at around the same period.

We do have a North African genome dated to 2250 BC (corresponding to Bell Beakers in Europe), but it lacks Steppe ancestry.

Target: Iberia_Central_CA_Afr_I4246
Distance: 3.6471% / 0.03647068
43.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
29.0 MAR_Iberomaurusian
14.6 Levant_PPNB
8.8 Dinka
2.4 WHG
1.4 Yoruba

Ruderico
12-13-2019, 07:50 PM
It's only one sample, though. BB in Morocco wasn't as expressive as in Europe either, but who knows

Angoliga
12-13-2019, 08:18 PM
We do have a North African genome dated to 2250 BC (corresponding to Bell Beakers in Europe), but it lacks Steppe ancestry.

Target: Iberia_Central_CA_Afr_I4246
Distance: 3.6471% / 0.03647068
43.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
29.0 MAR_Iberomaurusian
14.6 Levant_PPNB
8.8 Dinka
2.4 WHG
1.4 Yoruba

There's Sicilian beakers without Steppe ancestry, so maybe it's being mirrored for some early-bronze age N-Africans:

https://i.imgur.com/SInFT1L.png
Fig 4 b. (Fernandes, 2019 (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/03/21/584714.full.pdf))



Adding to the previous comment: sizable steppe ancestry arrived in NW-Africa/W-Med during the Bronze Age, so there was ample time for introgression into the Canaries -- the Guanche samples are dated >7th century AD

Cascio
02-06-2020, 07:30 PM
Using G25 proxies, Guanches appear closest to North-Moroccans compared to all modern North-West Africans:

https://i.imgur.com/88tjLuZ.png

In terms of SSA, aboriginal Guanches appear more or less the same to modern N-Moroccans, the only difference is the latter's slightly higher Dinka (Ancestral-East African) affinities.
Ancestral residue perhaps from the neolithic sub-pluvial (green-sahara period) which would of course be less distant to modern NW-Africans.


Here's the same run with other Berbers/North-West Africans:

https://i.imgur.com/LnyHbkL.png

Their SW-Asian affinities appear more complex when additional Levant proxies are used:

https://i.imgur.com/vyVxtgp.png

Source samples used (w/ all levants):

KEN_LSA,-0.522448,0.044683,-0.010936,0.006137,0.004308,-0.006414,0.085309,-0.06692,0.076287,-0.06925,-0.011367,0.010491,-0.033003,0.000138,0.00855,-0.014983,0.021383,0.038513,-0.002137,-0.005253,-0.007612,-0.002968,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000718
ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32E-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_Canaanite_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
Levant_ISR_C,0.0886623,0.1666536,-0.046763,-0.135219,0.0157761,-0.0622661,-0.0120351,-0.0113436,0.0529071,0.0342603,0.0145636,-0.0154914,0.0330965,0.0045705,-0.0154936,0.0029309,-0.0032528,0.0040806,0.0034931,0.0089778,0.0023839, 0.0086492,-0.0027244,-0.0019723,-0.0039579
Levant_ISR_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053
Levant_LBN_MA_Euro,0.1248263,0.1391273,0.0551857,0 .0273473,0.0379557,0.0087387,-0.0031333,0.006461,0.0126123,0.012453,-0.0053587,0.010191,-0.0110503,-0.011239,0.0116267,-0.0011493,-0.002955,0.0013513,0.0011733,0.0042103,0.0083187,0 .005523,-0.000616,-0.0008837,0.0018763
Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed,0.093904,0.148775,0.0052795,-0.027455,0.0238505,-0.0124105,-0.0030555,0.002769,0.008283,0.0190435,0.002923,0.0 062195,-0.0080275,-0.010666,-0.0010855,-0.0026515,0.002673,-0.0018365,-0.0022625,6.25e-05,0.0009355,-0.002102,0.005238,0.005362,0.003353
Levant_LBN_MA_NE,0.085652,0.150552,-0.0499688,-0.0856758,-0.0080785,-0.0284468,-0.0062278,-0.0122302,0.0030168,0.0139868,0.0088098,-0.0060698,0.009923,6.88e-05,-0.0090595,0.0023203,-0.0001955,-0.001869,0.004431,-0.0074722,-0.0028075,0.0007108,-0.0050838,0.0027112,0.0041315
Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0873592,0.1459822,-0.057605,-0.0873715,-0.0110788,-0.0278195,-0.007814,-0.0074422,0.0077718,0.0132578,0.0027202,-0.009704,0.012859,-0.0026492,-0.0096022,0.0102428,0.001695,-0.001172,0.0026085,0.0033142,-0.0002497,0.0044825,-0.003574,-0.0008438,-0.00479
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Gambian,-0.6064875,0.0671942,0.0197362,0.0114665,0.0021028, 0.0055777,-0.0358392,0.0387677,-0.0317353,0.0241463,0.0054132,-0.0036467,0.0162287,-0.0009865,0.011016,-0.0153362,0.009692,-0.0011823,-0.002116,-0.0032307,-0.001643,-0.0018137,0.0043958,-0.0001005,0.001377
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0455292,0.0660095,-0.1518855,0.0026648,-0.1250232,0.0204982,0.0170972,-0.0017305,-0.0814005,-0.0579968,0.0004465,-0.001611,0.0072845,-0.0087735,0.0294512,0.0567152,-0.005248,0.0084882,0.007259,-0.037018,0.0075492,-0.0286258,-0.010322,-0.0404578,0.0265842
ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111, 0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018 041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
Basque_French,0.128051,0.1520246,0.0551727,0.01282 31,0.0564104,0.0025099,-0.00141,0.0033229,0.0305968,0.0412036,-0.0092724,0.0103408,-0.0209761,-0.0140237,0.0132192,-0.0019359,-0.0119173,0.0030278,-0.0007165,-0.0044144,0.010157,0.0024855,-0.0086397,-0.0091698,7.18E-05
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

I presume you mean that the Guanche have slightly more DINKA than the North Moroccans, according to your chart.

Angoliga
02-06-2020, 08:15 PM
I presume you mean that the Guanche have slightly more DINKA than the North Moroccans, according to your chart.

Correct

Edit: "... the only difference is the *former's* slightly higher Dinka (Ancestral-East African) affinities. "

sami15
02-06-2020, 08:25 PM
This is my G25 Results compared to some guanches guys, I'm so identical /closer to them and I'm North Moroccan riffian

36275

Amhas
02-08-2020, 01:48 AM
This is my G25 Results compared to some guanches guys, I'm so identical /closer to them and I'm North Moroccan riffian

36275


From where in rif you from ?

Michalis Moriopoulos
02-08-2020, 05:08 AM
This is my G25 Results compared to some guanches guys, I'm so identical /closer to them and I'm North Moroccan riffian

36275

Would you mind sharing your scaled coordinates? I have one Riffian in my copy of the G25 but it would be nice to have another.

sami15
02-14-2020, 05:46 PM
From where in rif you from ?

from Al Hoceima city

sami15
02-14-2020, 05:47 PM
Would you mind sharing your scaled coordinates? I have one Riffian in my copy of the G25 but it would be nice to have another.

ok welcome, I will send to your PM my coordinates

TonyScaletta
02-14-2020, 06:48 PM
Lol, how do you know that?

A likely scenario for Canaries is that they were discovered by Carthaginian expeditions into Africa. They even reached Guinea.

Once discovered people naturally came to settle coming via Phoenician harbors such as Tangiers, Sale and Azilah which lie in the Nothern Morocco. The most southern Carthaginian harbor of Morocco is Mazagan (nearby Casablanca).

It would kinda match the profile of Guanches ranging from very Riffian-like to something abit noticeably southern and higher in Iberomaurusian ancestry.

Carthage's destruction would have put the islands into isolation and without Carthaginians and Numidians coming back and forth regularly people became isolated.

There is no evidence for this If carthaginians went there regularly why didn't we find any punic artifacts ? even the alphabets found there were berber and roman not even punic

Michalis Moriopoulos
02-15-2020, 11:29 PM
ok welcome, I will send to your PM my coordinates

Awesome, please do.

Itrane2000
07-22-2020, 12:07 PM
Would you mind sharing your scaled coordinates? I have one Riffian in my copy of the G25 but it would be nice to have another.

I can share mine too.
I am Berber from North Morocco.

Michalis Moriopoulos
07-22-2020, 01:25 PM
I can share mine too.
I am Berber from North Morocco.

Sure, go ahead and post them here or PM me. What tribe are you from?

drobbah
07-22-2020, 03:31 PM
Are people from Berkane culturally and genetically closer to people of the Rif or Algerians across the border and does anyone have G25 results from that border region? My girl is a Berber from Berkane that doesn't speak Amazigh and sadly doesn't know much about her heritage so whenever I ask questions about her heritage she doesn't know much.

Granary
07-22-2020, 03:59 PM
Do we have any working theory where the Steppe in Guanches and North Africa came from? If it's from southern Europeans that's a lot of European admixture, which I don't believe uniparental markers support but I'm not sure.

Michalis Moriopoulos
07-22-2020, 04:00 PM
Do we have any working theory where the Steppe in Guanches and North Africa came from? If it's from southern Europeans that's a lot of European admixture, which I don't believe uniparental markers support but I'm not sure.

Bell Beakers from Iberia.

Granary
07-22-2020, 04:15 PM
Bell Beakers from Iberia.
Was it direct admixture or after substantial local Iberian admixture?

Echo
07-22-2020, 04:29 PM
Do we have any working theory where the Steppe in Guanches and North Africa came from? If it's from southern Europeans that's a lot of European admixture, which I don't believe uniparental markers support but I'm not sure..

European is such a big word. The vast majority of Europeans formed very recently barely 2,000 years ago with a huge amount of WHG and Steppe Corded Ware-related admixture.

Berbers descend from the same Neolithic Anatolian wave ad Europeans. Those Neolithic Anatolian left Anatolia 6000 years ago, moved into the Balkans where they acquired 10% WHG admixture and alot of yDNA RV88. From the Balkans they had a massive expansion reaching a few generations after Iberia.
From Iberia they entered Morocco and met the local Taforalt folk. Two people who never met each other before. Today Berbers are 45% Anatolian Neolithic 30% Iberomaurusian on average but some can reach 50% Iberomaurusian and lower too.

Besides modern Iberians are 50% Bell Beaker-like. On average, with some WHG, North African and Roman ancestry. They aren't the same as Neolithic Iberians anymore (that's an often mistaken assumption).

Ruderico
07-22-2020, 04:35 PM
Was it direct admixture or after substantial local Iberian admixture?

The BB population who entered Iberia was already only some 40/50% Yamnaya-like, unlike those of Britain who had much higher figures, and didn't immediately reach the West so I seriously doubt many skipped Iberia altogether and jumped to north Africa.
E-M81 dominates northwest African patrilinear lines, yet its TMRCA is rather recent and post-dates these events by over 1000 years. It's not surprising Steppe-related haplogroups are minor in NW Africa

Michalis Moriopoulos
07-22-2020, 04:43 PM
Was it direct admixture or after substantial local Iberian admixture?

I'm not sure how much they acquired, but I do believe the admixture in Guanches came from Beakers. I don't believe Germanic barbarians or expelled Iberian Muslims made an impact on ancient Canarians. Too far south and out of the way.

drobbah
07-22-2020, 05:04 PM
Using G25 proxies, Guanches appear closest to North-Moroccans compared to all modern North-West Africans:

https://i.imgur.com/88tjLuZ.png

In terms of SSA, aboriginal Guanches appear more or less the same to modern N-Moroccans, the only difference is the latter's slightly higher Dinka (Ancestral-East African) affinities.
Ancestral residue perhaps from the neolithic sub-pluvial (green-sahara period) which would of course be less distant to modern NW-Africans.


Here's the same run with other Berbers/North-West Africans:

https://i.imgur.com/LnyHbkL.png

Their SW-Asian affinities appear more complex when additional Levant proxies are used:

https://i.imgur.com/vyVxtgp.png

Source samples used (w/ all levants):

KEN_LSA,-0.522448,0.044683,-0.010936,0.006137,0.004308,-0.006414,0.085309,-0.06692,0.076287,-0.06925,-0.011367,0.010491,-0.033003,0.000138,0.00855,-0.014983,0.021383,0.038513,-0.002137,-0.005253,-0.007612,-0.002968,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000718
ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32E-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_Canaanite_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
Levant_ISR_C,0.0886623,0.1666536,-0.046763,-0.135219,0.0157761,-0.0622661,-0.0120351,-0.0113436,0.0529071,0.0342603,0.0145636,-0.0154914,0.0330965,0.0045705,-0.0154936,0.0029309,-0.0032528,0.0040806,0.0034931,0.0089778,0.0023839, 0.0086492,-0.0027244,-0.0019723,-0.0039579
Levant_ISR_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053
Levant_LBN_MA_Euro,0.1248263,0.1391273,0.0551857,0 .0273473,0.0379557,0.0087387,-0.0031333,0.006461,0.0126123,0.012453,-0.0053587,0.010191,-0.0110503,-0.011239,0.0116267,-0.0011493,-0.002955,0.0013513,0.0011733,0.0042103,0.0083187,0 .005523,-0.000616,-0.0008837,0.0018763
Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed,0.093904,0.148775,0.0052795,-0.027455,0.0238505,-0.0124105,-0.0030555,0.002769,0.008283,0.0190435,0.002923,0.0 062195,-0.0080275,-0.010666,-0.0010855,-0.0026515,0.002673,-0.0018365,-0.0022625,6.25e-05,0.0009355,-0.002102,0.005238,0.005362,0.003353
Levant_LBN_MA_NE,0.085652,0.150552,-0.0499688,-0.0856758,-0.0080785,-0.0284468,-0.0062278,-0.0122302,0.0030168,0.0139868,0.0088098,-0.0060698,0.009923,6.88e-05,-0.0090595,0.0023203,-0.0001955,-0.001869,0.004431,-0.0074722,-0.0028075,0.0007108,-0.0050838,0.0027112,0.0041315
Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0873592,0.1459822,-0.057605,-0.0873715,-0.0110788,-0.0278195,-0.007814,-0.0074422,0.0077718,0.0132578,0.0027202,-0.009704,0.012859,-0.0026492,-0.0096022,0.0102428,0.001695,-0.001172,0.0026085,0.0033142,-0.0002497,0.0044825,-0.003574,-0.0008438,-0.00479
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Gambian,-0.6064875,0.0671942,0.0197362,0.0114665,0.0021028, 0.0055777,-0.0358392,0.0387677,-0.0317353,0.0241463,0.0054132,-0.0036467,0.0162287,-0.0009865,0.011016,-0.0153362,0.009692,-0.0011823,-0.002116,-0.0032307,-0.001643,-0.0018137,0.0043958,-0.0001005,0.001377
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0455292,0.0660095,-0.1518855,0.0026648,-0.1250232,0.0204982,0.0170972,-0.0017305,-0.0814005,-0.0579968,0.0004465,-0.001611,0.0072845,-0.0087735,0.0294512,0.0567152,-0.005248,0.0084882,0.007259,-0.037018,0.0075492,-0.0286258,-0.010322,-0.0404578,0.0265842
ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111, 0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018 041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
Basque_French,0.128051,0.1520246,0.0551727,0.01282 31,0.0564104,0.0025099,-0.00141,0.0033229,0.0305968,0.0412036,-0.0092724,0.0103408,-0.0209761,-0.0140237,0.0132192,-0.0019359,-0.0119173,0.0030278,-0.0007165,-0.0044144,0.010157,0.0024855,-0.0086397,-0.0091698,7.18E-05
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
Majority of the Maghreb has more Dinka admixture than the North.The Guanches are not special in that regard but what I find surprising is that the Southern Moroccans despite being more Yoruba admixed have similar levels of IAM ancestry to coastal North Africans who are Mediterranean admixed.
https://i.imgur.com/VEGyDDw.png

Michalis Moriopoulos
07-22-2020, 05:08 PM
I think North Africans from the Sahara and nearby were enriched for IAM ancestry relative to Mediterranean Atlas populations prior to historical SSA gene flow. And they still are.

drobbah
07-22-2020, 05:23 PM
I think North Africans from the Sahara and nearby were enriched for IAM ancestry relative to Mediterranean Atlas populations prior to historical SSA gene flow. And they still are.
The coastal North Africans are heavily Mediterranean admixed but these Saharan North Africans are also heavily Yoruba admixed.The Fulani for example IAM ancestry is very close to the range found in North Africans (both coastal and Sahara) and the Saharawi and Berber_MAR_TIZ have the largest amounts of IAM ancestry.Is it safe to assume IAM were primarily Sahara dwellers when it was green or are the modern populations that are in the Sahara better at preserving their ancestry compared to the North?

Target: Fulani
Distance: 1.2960% / 0.01296040
51.8 Yoruba
23.2 MAR_Taforalt
13.8 TUR_Barcin_N
6.6 Dinka
4.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
0.4 Levant_Natufian


The Saharawi have a massive amount of IAM ancestry in comparison to their Northern brothers:

Target: Saharawi
Distance: 1.7192% / 0.01719248
37.0 MAR_Taforalt
19.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
17.2 TUR_Barcin_N
10.4 Yoruba
8.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
5.0 Levant_Natufian
1.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.0 Dinka
0.4 Mbuti

Echo
07-22-2020, 06:01 PM
All the populations from the Middle Atlas, High Atlas and Bari-Atlas are high in Iberomaurusian/Taforalt. In fact high Taforalt is often associated with high Anatolian Neolithic ancestry, which shows that both ancestry are strongly tied to the Neolithic period.

Populations with lower Taforalt always have higher Natufian, Steppe and SSA.

Luso
07-22-2020, 06:09 PM
In the Canary Islands, we found R1b-M269 at the Guanche site that were ` 800 years old. The Tartesso's and Phoenicians visited Africa's west coast in the Iron Age and transported tin from Hibernia and Albion. Asian and African ivory and ostrich heads and Sicilian amber were carried by the Andalusian and Portuguese BBs. With regard to the Iberian presence, they will all depend on the influence of the principal cultural centers in other European countries. The German BBs are not easy to get to Sicily, but the British Isles are certainly closer to them. Steppe mixed BBs exist in Spain, according to Olalde, from 2,500 BC along with Non steppe bbs. Among these Bbs there are also people with a high proportion of steppes. Population trends may appear to have not yet been identified by geneticists. That is all really atm...

drobbah
07-22-2020, 06:12 PM
All the populations from the Middle Atlas, High Atlas and Bari-Atlas are high in Iberomaurusian/Taforalt. In fact high Taforalt is often associated with high Anatolian Neolithic ancestry, which shows that both ancestry are strongly tied to the Neolithic period.

Populations with lower Taforalt always have higher Natufian, Steppe and SSA.
Do they have more Taforalt ancestry than the Saharawis? And why would the Fulani in Sahel far away from those regions have close to 30% IAM ancestry?

Echo
07-22-2020, 06:16 PM
They all have very similar levels because they are the same kind of Berbers. Except Middle Atlas who are shifted towards Rif Berbers.

Riffian Berbers on the other hand are nearly identical to Kabyles, 2 of the Guanches from Gran Canaria as well as very close to the Copper Age North African farmer outlier from Iberia (predate Bronze Age even).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/lifz9liTtxktRLFo4Q2p1Yxagys-1HT1FbYzm7Mwc9IBOGwkyo28bXZfD4VBPQtdeSXLwExiIqscke zjCXKNvFm5WdBPgLIbLFAUvylO4i6E40uffpS1Srvh1yHAFEyb zuaqGs_xlTOWRpCyirM-

drobbah
07-22-2020, 06:29 PM
They all have very similar levels because they are the same kind of Berbers. Except Middle Atlas who are shifted towards Rif Berbers.

Riffian Berbers on the other hand are nearly identical to Kabyles, 2 of the Guanches from Gran Canaria as well as very close to the Copper Age North African farmer outlier from Iberia (predate Bronze Age even).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/lifz9liTtxktRLFo4Q2p1Yxagys-1HT1FbYzm7Mwc9IBOGwkyo28bXZfD4VBPQtdeSXLwExiIqscke zjCXKNvFm5WdBPgLIbLFAUvylO4i6E40uffpS1Srvh1yHAFEyb zuaqGs_xlTOWRpCyirM-
Judging by the fact that the Southern Moroccans who are Yoruba admixed with similar IAM ancestry to other Northen Maghrebis tells me that their pre-Yoruba admixed ancestors had higher IAM ancestry than Northern Maghrebis,same with the Fulani who derive a third of their ancestry from IAM.It seems to me the epicenter of IAM ancestry is in the Southern regions of North Africa.

Adamm
07-22-2020, 06:31 PM
I have collected many G25 samples from people in Morocco who've done the G25, I tried to mention their tribes and place of origin and added their haplogroups (terminal if possible) and compared them with the Guanches:

https://i.imgur.com/uNu6MrF.png

Adamm
07-22-2020, 06:50 PM
Are people from Berkane culturally and genetically closer to people of the Rif or Algerians across the border and does anyone have G25 results from that border region? My girl is a Berber from Berkane that doesn't speak Amazigh and sadly doesn't know much about her heritage so whenever I ask questions about her heritage she doesn't know much.

There are several kind of people in Berkane and not everyone is Berber there, there are Arab tribes and Berber tribes. The Berbers mostly belong to the Iznasn tribe (which I also belong to) and majority of them are Tamazight speaking families except for the ones born and raised in the cities who have been linguistically arabized only recently. However even those Arabized Berbers come mostly from Berber speaking families and have grandfathers and mothers who speak the language. Unlike people who come from families without Berber speaking people, they mostly derived from Arab Hilalian tribes who settled in the area. Berkane is a melting pot just like Oujda and other big cities, so if someone doesn't know to which tribe he belongs he's mostly considered an offspring of an outsider and not someone native (berber) to the region. And regarding your other question, the Berbers of Berkane (namely the Iznasn) are linguastly and culturally closer related to the Berbers on the other side of the Algerian border (like the Berbers from Msirda and Bni Snous), we also recently discovered a shared paternal line between 2 individuals from both tribes. The Berbers from the Rif are divided by the Malwiya river, that river has always been a historical border between the Berbers from the Rif and the Berbers from Taforalt/Berkane (even in antiquity). The Berbers from Berkane don't consider themselves Riffians and also their language is different somehow (even though both can manage to understand each other when trying).

Luso
07-22-2020, 06:55 PM
I have collected many G25 samples from people in Morocco who've done the G25, I tried to mention their tribes and place of origin and added their haplogroups (terminal if possible) and compared them with the Guanches:



Based on that data... they fit perfectly within that data-set (as expected). Also leaning towards a like 3/4 of what north morrocans get and 1/4 west, very cool.

drobbah
07-22-2020, 07:09 PM
There are several kind of people in Berkane and not everyone is Berber there, there are Arab tribes and Berber tribes. The Berbers mostly belong to the Iznasn tribe (which I also belong to) and majority of them are Tamazight speaking families except for the ones born and raised in the cities who have been linguistically arabized only recently. However even those Arabized Berbers come mostly from Berber speaking families and have grandfathers and mothers who speak the language. Unlike people who come from families without Berber speaking people, they mostly derived from Arab Hilalian tribes who settled in the area. Berkane is a melting pot just like Oujda and other big cities, so if someone doesn't know to which tribe he belongs he's mostly considered an offspring of an outsider and not someone native (berber) to the region. And regarding your other question, the Berbers of Berkane (namely the Iznasn) are linguastly and culturally closer related to the Berbers on the other side of the Algerian border (like the Berbers from Msirda and Bni Snous), we also recently discovered a shared paternal line between 2 individuals from both tribes. The Berbers from the Rif are divided by the Malwiya river, that river has always been a historical border between the Berbers from the Rif and the Berbers from Taforalt/Berkane (even in antiquity). The Berbers from Berkane don't consider themselves Riffians and also their language is different somehow (even though both can manage to understand each other when trying).
She just told me that Iznasn is her clan from father's side and her mother is Moroccan Sahraawi from the Rasheeda tribe (she looks like a typical Northerner imo).Thanks for this very informative answer!

Amine
07-22-2020, 07:21 PM
deleted

Amine
07-22-2020, 07:33 PM
deleted

Amine
07-22-2020, 07:42 PM
There are several kind of people in Berkane and not everyone is Berber there, there are Arab tribes and Berber tribes. The Berbers mostly belong to the Iznasn tribe (which I also belong to) and majority of them are Tamazight speaking families except for the ones born and raised in the cities who have been linguistically arabized only recently. However even those Arabized Berbers come mostly from Berber speaking families and have grandfathers and mothers who speak the language. Unlike people who come from families without Berber speaking people, they mostly derived from Arab Hilalian tribes who settled in the area. Berkane is a melting pot just like Oujda and other big cities, so if someone doesn't know to which tribe he belongs he's mostly considered an offspring of an outsider and not someone native (berber) to the region. And regarding your other question, the Berbers of Berkane (namely the Iznasn) are linguastly and culturally closer related to the Berbers on the other side of the Algerian border (like the Berbers from Msirda and Bni Snous), we also recently discovered a shared paternal line between 2 individuals from both tribes. The Berbers from the Rif are divided by the Malwiya river, that river has always been a historical border between the Berbers from the Rif and the Berbers from Taforalt/Berkane (even in antiquity). The Berbers from Berkane don't consider themselves Riffians and also their language is different somehow (even though both can manage to understand each other when trying).


Speak for your self if you don’t consider your self Riffan
Aith Yznassen has been always part of the grand Riff demographically and genetically
Im a berber from Berkane and i consider my self Riffan like my forefathers and my ancestors did

People denying the link to Riff for their own political and ideological sake nothing else...

My results both in MyHeritage ans 23andMe shows tens of relatives from Riff and handful people from Algeria
So yeah genetically we are very close to Riff

Adamm
07-22-2020, 08:01 PM
Speak for your self if you don’t consider your self Riffan
Aith Yznassen has been always part of the grand Riff demographically and genetically
Im a berber from Berkane and i consider my self Riffan like my forefathers and my ancestors did

People denying the link to Riff for their own political and ideological sake nothing else...

My results both in MyHeritage ans 23andMe shows tens of relatives from Riff and handful people from Algeria
So yeah genetically we are very close to Riff

This 'greater rif' thing is a new phenomena which has nothing to do with how our ancestors would identify themselves, ask any elder in the countryside if they would consider themselves Riffians and we both know the answer. Let alone the enmity between Iznasn tribe and the Riffians, the Riffians have attacked and killed the Iznasn in the 19th century on many occasions when they allied themselves with the Arab Sjaa tribe. Also Carleton Stevens Coon (very famous anthropologist who lived in the Rif for a while) who wrote probably the most important book on the Riffians has written about the geographical Rif, and this is what he said:

https://i.imgur.com/fSjULfi.png

https://i.imgur.com/ddhqtSR.png

The rif ends with the Malwiya river, and the utopian stories about the greater rif are nothing more than a joke and a shame upon our ancestors. This 'greater rif' is nothing more than Wayagher supremacism, Bni Znassen were the rulers of East Morocco in the 18th and 19th century.

Amine
07-22-2020, 09:26 PM
This 'greater rif' thing is a new phenomena which has nothing to do with how our ancestors would identify themselves, ask any elder in the countryside if they would consider themselves Riffians and we both know the answer. Let alone the enmity between Iznasn tribe and the Riffians, the Riffians have attacked and killed the Iznasn in the 19th century on many occasions when they allied themselves with the Arab Sjaa tribe. Also Carleton Stevens Coon (very famous anthropologist who lived in the Rif for a while) who wrote probably the most important book on the Riffians has written about the geographical Rif, and this is what he said:

https://i.imgur.com/fSjULfi.png

https://i.imgur.com/ddhqtSR.png

The rif ends with the Malwiya river, and the utopian stories about the greater rif are nothing more than a joke and a shame upon our ancestors. This 'greater rif' is nothing more than Wayagher supremacism, Bni Znassen were the rulers of East Morocco in the 18th and 19th century.

So basically you just don't want to consider yourself Riffan for your own purposes and that does not give you permission to generalize it, my entire people consider themselves part of the Riff region we have borders with Kebdana and many of us already married from them and my grandmother is from ouled daoud and many others..

Grand Riff is a term that was given by Riffans themselves to their territories instead of adopting the colonialism administrative division just like what you have posted from an anthropologist mentioning the Riff that was under the spanish authority excluding southern and eastern part of the Grand Riff..

The tribal wars weren't exclusive to only Aith Znassen they were everywhere and with everyone and we know the story of Gla3a with us and with Ulad Stut.... until nowadays there are a minor tribal racism between the Nador and Hoceima people..

like i said it is fine if you don't consider yourself Riffan but don't make your desires.. reference

Adamm
07-22-2020, 10:07 PM
So basically you just don't want to consider yourself Riffan for your own purposes and that does not give you permission to generalize it, my entire people consider themselves part of the Riff region we have borders with Kebdana and many of us already married from them and my grandmother is from ouled daoud and many others..

Grand Riff is a term that was given by Riffans themselves to their territories instead of adopting the colonialism administrative division just like what you have posted from an anthropologist mentioning the Riff that was under the spanish authority excluding southern and eastern part of the Grand Riff..

The tribal wars weren't exclusive to only Aith Znassen they were everywhere and with everyone and we know the story of Gla3a with us and with Ulad Stut.... until nowadays there are a minor tribal racism between the Nador and Hoceima people..

like i said it is fine if you don't consider yourself Riffan but don't make your desires.. reference



So basically you just don't want to consider yourself Riffan for your own purposes and that does not give you permission to generalize it, my entire people consider themselves part of the Riff region we have borders with Kebdana and many of us already married from them and my grandmother is from ouled daoud and many others..

I don't consider myself Riffian not because of my own 'purpose', I don't consider myself Riffian because it's historically and geographically incorrect for someone with both parents from Bni Znassn to consider himself a Riffian (especially from father-side), there are no records nor oral tradition within our tribe which approves of a Riffian identity within our tribe and territory. You probably consider yourself Riffian because your family inter-married with a Riffian tribe (Kebadana) and if you do consider yourself Riffian because of that it's your choice. You say that your 'entire people' consider themselves Riffians, then I ask: Are you talking about current generation? Then I can understand it, the Riffian propaganda is also getting into some Znasni minds (too bad), but if you're talking about the old generation (your paternal grandfathers) then I highly doubt they would consider themselves Riffians.

So point being, I dont generalize and if it would turn out to be historically correct to consider myself Riffian I would've done so, but this is historically not correct.


Grand Riff is a term that was given by Riffans themselves to their territories instead of adopting the colonialism administrative division just like what you have posted from an anthropologist mentioning the Riff that was under the spanish authority excluding southern and eastern part of the Grand Riff..

Grand Rif is a term that is given by Riffian supremacists who believe that whole North Morocco and North-West Algeria belongs to a same entity, which (of course) is of course incorrect. There is no proof of this 'Grand Rif' thing, it's just a bunch of Riffian supremacists with separatist tendencies who jerk off to the thought of a grand Rif. Nobody in inland Bni Znassen has spoken or heard about this grand rif, nobody adheres to the ideology behind it and nobody even approves of it (except for a small bunch of guys who learned about this terminology mostly through the internet). Point being, there is no proof for a 'Greater Rif' sentiment within the Bni Znassen. In the matter of fact, eastern Riffian tribes were subdued through force by Bni Znassen in order to pay taxes and other goods, it was Bni Znassen as the strongest Berber tribe in the East which controlled parts of the Rif. Naming north Morocco 'Greater Iznassen' would historically more accurate than naming it 'Greater Rif'.


The tribal wars weren't exclusive to only Aith Znassen they were everywhere and with everyone and we know the story of Gla3a with us and with Ulad Stut.... until nowadays there are a minor tribal racism between the Nador and Hoceima people..


The Gla3a Awlad Stut incident was not the only happening, in 1873 a big war occurred between Bni Znasn (especially your tribe and mine, Bni Ourimech) in which the leader of the Bni Znasn at that time (this happens 30/40 years AFTER the gle3a, stut incident) mobilized more than 10.000 soldiers to cross the Malwiya river in order to defeat the Sjaa tribe which had the following tribes as its allies: (Qla3a, Awlad Stut, Bouyahyi, Metalsa) and another taza tribe called 'Ahlaf'. This war between Bni Ourimech (Bni Znasn) and the Sjaa coalition resulted in their complete defeat with the Riffian tribes asking for peace. This happening is also found detailed in the book of the French Capitaine Louis Voinot (boon named: Oujda et l'amalat). Here is a part of it:

https://i.imgur.com/otiW8EX.png

Conclusion: Bni Znasn was at that certain time the most leading tribe of East Morocco and this created enmity with other tribes who rebelled against this, and even today in Oral tradition in the Bni Znasn countryside people there are still people who recall stories from these wars and bad sayings about some Riffian tribes. In our tribe we even still know exactly where one of our ancestors killed 9 of those people who tried to infiltrate our mountain (from that particular war). The Riffians have another history than the Znasnis, they have different identities and even different mentalities. Calling Bni Znasn 'Riffians' is cultural appropriation and a way to remove our distinct history as a ruling tribe of Eastern Morocco.

Amine
07-22-2020, 11:22 PM
I don't consider myself Riffian not because of my own 'purpose', I don't consider myself Riffian because it's historically and geographically incorrect for someone with both parents from Bni Znassn to consider himself a Riffian (especially from father-side), there are no records nor oral tradition within our tribe which approves of a Riffian identity within our tribe and territory. You probably consider yourself Riffian because your family inter-married with a Riffian tribe (Kebadana) and if you do consider yourself Riffian because of that it's your choice. You say that your 'entire people' consider themselves Riffians, then I ask: Are you talking about current generation? Then I can understand it, the Riffian propaganda is also getting into some Znasni minds (too bad), but if you're talking about the old generation (your paternal grandfathers) then I highly doubt they would consider themselves Riffians.

So point being, I dont generalize and if it would turn out to be historically correct to consider myself Riffian I would've done so, but this is historically not correct.



Grand Rif is a term that is given by Riffian supremacists who believe that whole North Morocco and North-West Algeria belongs to a same entity, which (of course) is of course incorrect. There is no proof of this 'Grand Rif' thing, it's just a bunch of Riffian supremacists with separatist tendencies who jerk off to the thought of a grand Rif. Nobody in inland Bni Znassen has spoken or heard about this grand rif, nobody adheres to the ideology behind it and nobody even approves of it (except for a small bunch of guys who learned about this terminology mostly through the internet). Point being, there is no proof for a 'Greater Rif' sentiment within the Bni Znassen. In the matter of fact, eastern Riffian tribes were subdued through force by Bni Znassen in order to pay taxes and other goods, it was Bni Znassen as the strongest Berber tribe in the East which controlled parts of the Rif. Naming north Morocco 'Greater Iznassen' would historically more accurate than naming it 'Greater Rif'.



The Gla3a Awlad Stut incident was not the only happening, in 1873 a big war occurred between Bni Znasn (especially your tribe and mine, Bni Ourimech) in which the leader of the Bni Znasn at that time (this happens 30/40 years AFTER the gle3a, stut incident) mobilized more than 10.000 soldiers to cross the Malwiya river in order to defeat the Sjaa tribe which had the following tribes as its allies: (Qla3a, Awlad Stut, Bouyahyi, Metalsa) and another taza tribe called 'Ahlaf'. This war between Bni Ourimech (Bni Znasn) and the Sjaa coalition resulted in their complete defeat with the Riffian tribes asking for peace. This happening is also found detailed in the book of the French Capitaine Louis Voinot (boon named: Oujda et l'amalat). Here is a part of it:

https://i.imgur.com/otiW8EX.png

Conclusion: Bni Znasn was at that certain time the most leading tribe of East Morocco and this created enmity with other tribes who rebelled against this, and even today in Oral tradition in the Bni Znasn countryside people there are still people who recall stories from these wars and bad sayings about some Riffian tribes. In our tribe we even still know exactly where one of our ancestors killed 9 of those people who tried to infiltrate our mountain (from that particular war). The Riffians have another history than the Znasnis, they have different identities and even different mentalities. Calling Bni Znasn 'Riffians' is cultural appropriation and a way to remove our distinct history as a ruling tribe of Eastern Morocco.

That is exactly what i had in mind you gonna answer me with, what is geographically and historically ? you think our ancestor knew that their mountains belong to Atlas range and not Riff ? you think Malyiwa was a really a border? what is a riffan and znassni identities to you ? how do you define which is which or with what scale do you figure?

No dear it is not because of my grandmother or her family side, it is because the aith znassen is linked to Riff more than what we think or what we have been told, my grandma is just a drop in a bucket... the oldest generation hated everyone even their own subtribes who fled to the other side (across Algerian border) and you think they will say yes we are part of the Gla3a or Riaffa or makhzen or anything else but their own small sub-town sub-village ??? yes my grandpa and all the region says we and riffan brother by blood and culture and part of the big community before and after colonialism, current generation they rather want to be Da3ich and i dont care for them...there is no Riffan propaganda thats a bulllshit of anti riffian lame excuse that is used by islamists and panarabism and makhzen to break anything has to do with Riff just like they are doing with Amazigh renaissance (too bad ???) WaaW i'm glad it's causing some insomnia to the anti riffan identity crowd.

Mmmmm yeah it is pretty clear it is personal you don't want your tribe to be part of something your ideology is against, just like 3arbouch saying Morocco is not an Amazigh country... self comfort...


Supremacist ??? really anything you guys goes against your desires it is either Berberist or Riffan supremacist or Atheism or some new boogeyman you will come up with... i just said it is a term that we as awaken Northern Moroccan are reviving and referring to our people despite the tribale issues that you seems to be stack in and can't get over... basically you saying there is no amazigh people only berbers because only new generation is using that term...

Yes tribalism and wars in Morocco never stopped until Spain and France took over even Makhzen couldn't stop it, so brothers and cousins fighting doesn't make them relatives or one big family ??

Conclusion: Tribalism was stronger than anything else that could bond the people to fight or survive, 5 major tribes fighting between each others it is not a prove that they are not the same people or they don't share same tradition or heritage.. western and eastern germans were one people before and after empire kingdom republic and wars .. yes Aith Znassen they have their own characteristics and their own history and Zenatti language but that doesn't mean that they are not part of the Riffan mass..

Even abdelkrim el khattabi sent a letter to Aith Znassen calling them brothers asking for support against spanish invaders...

We are from same tribe and you can deny the Riffan renaissance as much as you can and i will approve it as long as i'm alive...

# Chat in another occasion # Have a good Day/Night #

Granary
07-22-2020, 11:55 PM
Based on uniparental markers and linguistics, when did the Guanches arrive in the Canaries?

Michalis Moriopoulos
07-23-2020, 03:39 AM
The coastal North Africans are heavily Mediterranean admixed but these Saharan North Africans are also heavily Yoruba admixed.The Fulani for example IAM ancestry is very close to the range found in North Africans (both coastal and Sahara) and the Saharawi and Berber_MAR_TIZ have the largest amounts of IAM ancestry.Is it safe to assume IAM were primarily Sahara dwellers when it was green or are the modern populations that are in the Sahara better at preserving their ancestry compared to the North?

I think we will discover Iberomaurusian-like ancestry has been important in the Sahara for some time (before Berber expansion into the area), and that it penetrated quite far south during the Green Sahara. Hopefully they will be able to test Tenerians and Kiffians; I expect they will be some combination of Iberomaurusian + West African. I think for the Mediterranean littoral, later movements (from Iberian farmers, for instance) diluted the Iberomaurusian element considerably more than in the south. Though the southern areas (Sahara) experienced later waves of admixture, too, obviously.

Riverman
07-23-2020, 09:48 AM
I think we will discover Iberomaurusian-like ancestry has been important in the Sahara for some time (before Berber expansion into the area), and that it penetrated quite far south during the Green Sahara. Hopefully they will be able to test Tenerians and Kiffians; I expect they will be some combination of Iberomaurusian + West African. I think for the Mediterranean littoral, later movements (from Iberian farmers, for instance) diluted the Iberomaurusian element considerably more than in the south. Though the southern areas (Sahara) experienced later waves of admixture, too, obviously.

Can just agree and think that one of the main reasosn this component is now not that present in Africa any more is simply that the Sahara dried out and they were caught in the middle between newcomers from Eurasia/Nile valley, like they themselves were before largely, and the then already stabilised Niger-Kordofanian block to the South, to which they might have contributed though. With the rather poor habitat left for them, they were demographically in a bad position and received admixture from the bigger populations rather than influencing others.
How do the Toubou and Zaghawa score by the way? Didn't check their genetics lately, did anyone?

Itrane2000
07-28-2020, 12:01 AM
Sure, go ahead and post them here or PM me. What tribe are you from?

Hello
I belong to the Beni Warayn Tribe (north Morocco). I am Berber.
here is my Global25 scaled.
-0.023903,0.141159,-0.004903,-0.066861,0.030159,-0.028447,-0.027261,0.006923,0.063607,0.028247,0,-0.007643,0.023637,-0.021607,0.018729,-0.0118,0.002086,-0.022044,-0.039595,0.008629,-0.02009,-0.032768,0.025636,-0.001446,0.011017

could you also share the data you have for north africa according to tribes.

Elias.99
07-28-2020, 12:05 AM
Hello
I belong to the Beni Warayn Tribe (north Morocco). I am Berber.
here is my Global25 scaled.
-0.023903,0.141159,-0.004903,-0.066861,0.030159,-0.028447,-0.027261,0.006923,0.063607,0.028247,0,-0.007643,0.023637,-0.021607,0.018729,-0.0118,0.002086,-0.022044,-0.039595,0.008629,-0.02009,-0.032768,0.025636,-0.001446,0.011017

could you also share the data you have for north africa according to tribes.

You score Shetlandic and Danish, interesting could be from Barbary Slave Trade times. I always been curious if there were any Moroccans left with North European admixture. I could be wrong too.

Itrane2000
07-28-2020, 12:20 AM
this is very interesting. could you share the coordinates ?

Elias.99
07-28-2020, 12:28 AM
this is very interesting. could you share the coordinates ?

I put it in the G25 Modern Average
and G25 Individual Sample

Itrane,-0.023903,0.141159,-0.004903,-0.066861,0.030159,-0.028447,-0.027261,0.006923,0.063607,0.028247,0,-0.007643,0.023637,-0.021607,0.018729,-0.0118,0.002086,-0.022044,-0.039595,0.008629,-0.02009,-0.032768,0.025636,-0.001446,0.011017


G25 MODERN

Target: Itrane
Distance: 1.7051% / 0.01705129 | ADC: 0.5x
57.0 Moroccan_North
41.8 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
1.2 Shetlandic

Target: Itrane
Distance: 1.5992% / 0.01599232 | ADC: 0.25x
55.2 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
41.4 Moroccan_North
2.6 Shetlandic
0.6 Danish
0.2 Tunisian

Target: Itrane
Distance: 1.4334% / 0.01433405
62.2 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
22.4 Berber_MAR_TIZ
5.2 Spanish_Soria
5.0 Shetlandic
2.2 Yemenite_Mahra
1.8 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
1.0 BedouinB
0.2 Saharawi

G25 INDIVIDUAL

Target: Itrane
Distance: 0.9171% / 0.00917112 | ADC: 0.25x
55.4 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
24.2 Moroccan_North
10.6 Tunisian
4.0 Algerian
3.4 German
2.4 Berber_Tunisia_Sen

Target: Itrane
Distance: 0.6310% / 0.00631050
49.4 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
11.8 Saharawi
9.6 Moroccan_South
7.6 German
6.2 Berber_MAR_TIZ
4.2 Algerian
4.2 Moroccan_North
3.2 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
1.8 Sardinian
0.6 Dutch
0.6 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.6 Spanish_Canarias
0.2 Yemenite_Jew

Some history about it
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Barbary-Pirates-English-Slaves/

Itrane2000
07-28-2020, 07:14 AM
may explain the blond hair of my maternal grand mother and of my son.

Itrane2000
07-28-2020, 07:42 AM
I put it in the G25 Modern Average
and G25 Individual Sample

Itrane,-0.023903,0.141159,-0.004903,-0.066861,0.030159,-0.028447,-0.027261,0.006923,0.063607,0.028247,0,-0.007643,0.023637,-0.021607,0.018729,-0.0118,0.002086,-0.022044,-0.039595,0.008629,-0.02009,-0.032768,0.025636,-0.001446,0.011017


G25 MODERN

Target: Itrane
Distance: 1.7051% / 0.01705129 | ADC: 0.5x
57.0 Moroccan_North
41.8 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
1.2 Shetlandic

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Barbary-Pirates-English-Slaves/
Hello Elias,
first I would like to thank you.
Could you please tell me wich tool you used to determine that ?

Michalis Moriopoulos
07-28-2020, 10:09 AM
Hello
I belong to the Beni Warayn Tribe (north Morocco). I am Berber.
here is my Global25 scaled.
-0.023903,0.141159,-0.004903,-0.066861,0.030159,-0.028447,-0.027261,0.006923,0.063607,0.028247,0,-0.007643,0.023637,-0.021607,0.018729,-0.0118,0.002086,-0.022044,-0.039595,0.008629,-0.02009,-0.032768,0.025636,-0.001446,0.011017

could you also share the data you have for north africa according to tribes.

You're Ait Warain in my copy now:

https://i.imgur.com/9u8exab.png

I'm always amazed how little Iran N/CHG you guys have.

Itrane2000
07-28-2020, 11:17 AM
hello
is it possible for you to send me the raw data ? (without names, I just want to see tribes or city and languages)

Elias.99
07-28-2020, 11:35 AM
You're Ait Warain in my copy now:

https://i.imgur.com/9u8exab.png

I'm always amazed how little Iran N/CHG you guys have.


Elias_scaled,0.009106,0.121864,-0.031678,-0.060401,-0.004308,-0.025658,-0.020211,-0.003231,0.023111,0.011663,0.004709,-0.003147,0.01115,-0.017616,0.010722,0.002254,-0.001173,-0.007221,-0.021117,-0.000125,-0.006988,-0.017559,0.013927,-0.006748,0.00455

Is it possible to see my tribe I believe im Chleuh from Errachidia

Elias.99
07-28-2020, 11:36 AM
may explain the blond hair of my maternal grand mother and of my son.

Maybe but many Guanches were known to be blonde haired so it could be a common trait too. Especially in North Morocco

Ruderico
07-28-2020, 11:40 AM
hello
is it possible for you to send me the raw data ? (without names, I just want to see tribes or city and languages)

Sharing raw data without the owner's consent is definitely not allowed in Anthrogenica. There will be consequences if we find out this is taking place.

Itrane2000
07-28-2020, 11:44 AM
Sharing raw data without the owner's consent is definitely not allowed in Anthrogenica. There will be consequences if we find out this is taking place.

I understand. But the G25 are no longer genomic data and they are anonymous.
Am I wrong ?

Ruderico
07-28-2020, 11:47 AM
I understand. But the G25 are no longer genomic data and they are anonymous.
Am I wrong ?

G25 is not raw data, which was what you asked for. It needs to be crystal clear for everyone in this forum that breaches of privacy are not tolerated.

Itrane2000
07-28-2020, 12:37 PM
G25 is not raw data, which was what you asked for. It needs to be crystal clear for everyone in this forum that breaches of privacy are not tolerated.

I was not asking for raw genomic data.
I was asking for raw G25 data, the PC25 for each of the individuals in the map. As I understood, many of this raw G25 data are already public, but some are not.

Elias.99
07-28-2020, 02:16 PM
Hello Elias,
first I would like to thank you.
Could you please tell me wich tool you used to determine that ?

Vahaduo G25 Calculators you can put in your scaled coords and get an esitmate. It still shows Shetlandic at 0.25x and 0.5x so its interesting to look in at

Michalis Moriopoulos
07-28-2020, 05:50 PM
is it possible for you to send me the raw data ? (without names, I just want to see tribes or city and languages)

Sorry, I don't have permission to share their coordinates.

At some point it might be a good idea to have a place where people can willingly post their G25 coordinates to a database with the expectation that modellers can use them freely. I guess Poi's nMonte runner and Gencove offer that already to those who make their coords public.


Elias_scaled,0.009106,0.121864,-0.031678,-0.060401,-0.004308,-0.025658,-0.020211,-0.003231,0.023111,0.011663,0.004709,-0.003147,0.01115,-0.017616,0.010722,0.002254,-0.001173,-0.007221,-0.021117,-0.000125,-0.006988,-0.017559,0.013927,-0.006748,0.00455

Is it possible to see my tribe I believe im Chleuh from Errachidia

I have two Chleuhs already; they're labelled Berber Morocco Shilha.

Are you half-Syrian, as your profile suggests?

https://i.imgur.com/5SgZVZH.png


Maybe but many Guanches were known to be blonde haired so it could be a common trait too. Especially in North Morocco

If I had to guess, I'd say Iberian farmers introduced it first (though most of them would have been dark-haired, obviously). Maybe Beakers are partly responsible, too, as many Berbers have some Steppe MLBA ancestry. Itrane is on the high end of this, but not outside of the range. So who knows. Libyans were famous for lighter hair in Egyptian murals so the trait is clearly prehistoric in North Africa in any case.

Elias.99
07-28-2020, 07:43 PM
Sorry, I don't have permission to share their coordinates.

At some point it might be a good idea to have a place where people can willingly post their G25 coordinates to a database with the expectation that modellers can use them freely. I guess Poi's nMonte runner and Gencove offer that already to those who make their coords public.



I have two Chleuhs already; they're labelled Berber Morocco Shilha.

Are you half-Syrian, as your profile suggests?

https://i.imgur.com/5SgZVZH.png



If I had to guess, I'd say Iberian farmers introduced it first (though most of them would have been dark-haired, obviously). Maybe Beakers are partly responsible, too, as many Berbers have some Steppe MLBA ancestry. Itrane is on the high end of this, but not outside of the range. So who knows. Libyans were famous for lighter hair in Egyptian murals so the trait is clearly prehistoric in North Africa in any case.

Yes I'm Syrian from my fathers side. And the other quote yes I agree it probably was introduced from Iberia I don't know if lighter eyes and hair are that common at that latitude

Itrane2000
07-28-2020, 08:42 PM
Sorry, I don't have permission to share their coordinates.

At some point it might be a good idea to have a place where people can willingly post their G25 coordinates to a database with the expectation that modellers can use them freely. I guess Poi's nMonte runner and Gencove offer that already to those who make their coords public.



I have two Chleuhs already; they're labelled Berber Morocco Shilha.

Are you half-Syrian, as your profile suggests?

https://i.imgur.com/5SgZVZH.png



If I had to guess, I'd say Iberian farmers introduced it first (though most of them would have been dark-haired, obviously). Maybe Beakers are partly responsible, too, as many Berbers have some Steppe MLBA ancestry. Itrane is on the high end of this, but not outside of the range. So who knows. Libyans were famous for lighter hair in Egyptian murals so the trait is clearly prehistoric in North Africa in any case.

hello,
yes it will be a nice idea to have a public database.
Do not hesitate to share my coordinate with people, just remove my nickname and keep only: Berber -North Morocco - Ait Warayn.
Have you thought about making a PCA only for North african with a more suitable basis vector ? and put it in a 3D model with javascript. it will be very nice.

Shadogowah
07-30-2020, 08:56 AM
You score Shetlandic and Danish, interesting could be from Barbary Slave Trade times. I always been curious if there were any Moroccans left with North European admixture. I could be wrong too.

There are many possible links. One of them between the Dutch Geuzen and the Republic of Salé

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Sal%C3%A9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geuzen#Sea_Beggars

Shadogowah
07-30-2020, 09:00 AM
Maybe but many Guanches were known to be blonde haired so it could be a common trait too. Especially in North Morocco

Blonde hair, blue eyes and other traits that we tend to associate to northern europeans are actually phenotypes associated to recesive mutations and will also show up among endogamic populations regardless their ethnic admixture.

If you want to find more blonde, light eyed and ginger people in Spain or Italy, go to villages in rural areas with some history of isolation.

Actually you'll find blondes among gypsies too (tend to be endogamous people) whose phenotype is darker than other Spaniards.

SilkRoad
01-12-2021, 11:48 PM
Amazing how Bell Beaker Iberian represents one of the biggest source of ancestry for coastal Berbers, although kind of correlates with the Bell Beaker culture being the last main Eurasian wave that hit NW Africa 3000 years ago in the Bronze Age.

Guanche005

Target:Gun005
Distance : 2,9065%/0.02264150
34 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
24 Mar_Taforalt
20 Tur_Barcin
12.4 Levant Natufian
5 Yoruba
0.8 Iran_Ganjareh_N

Target: Gun005
Distance: 2.2641%/0.02264150
38 Bell_Beaker_Iberian
25 MAR_Taforalt
22 Levant_PPNB
7 TUR_Barcin_N
5 Yoruba
0.8 Iran_Ganjareh N

Modern North Moroccan.
Distance : 2.2457% /0.2245705
35 Bell Beaker Iberia
26.4 Mar Taforalt
16.4 TUR_Barcin_N
10.8 Natufian
5 Yoruba
1 Irn_Ganj_Dareh_N

Though the BB culture predates the M81 founder effect by 1000 years so and which was still en process even among Guanches.

Another observation : The spread of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry in NW Africa wasn't probably linear along the Mediterranean at all. It spread more so along the Atlantic coast of Morocco reaching Kelif el Boroud at the foot of the Middle Atlas 4000 years ago ; previously influecing the local Iberomaurusians.
The Sardinian outlier of North African origin (Early Bronze Age) was actually a mixture of Iberomaurusian , Anatolian Neolithic and Natufian ancestry. The last ancestry might correlate with the Neolithic Capsian tradition.

Guanche005 can easily be modeled as 40% Bell Beaker 60% Sardinian outlier.

Guanche005 40% Bell Beaker Iberian 60% Sardinian outlier.

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun005
Distance: 3.0884% / 0.04088442
57.8 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
39.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
3.0 Yoruba

[Edited paragraph... "]

The cline in NW Africa is nevertheless very interesting from these very southern Berbers in Anti-Atlas/Souss with very low to none steppe and Natufian to the Guanches and coastal Berbers with significant Bell Beaker and Natufian type of ancestry.

Ruderico
01-13-2021, 02:48 PM
Today there's a clear tail towards the Middle East/Levant, but I kind of agree with what you wrote, except that I'm sceptical of the second to last paragraph. G25+nMonte definitely struggles at timing events which thus make it unreliable for that particular task. More often than not certain references work with a few individuals/samples but not as well with others with the exact same ethnic background.

I'll give you a personal example with my pre-modern model for Iberia using my own data. Berber_EMA is the Guanche reference.

[1] "distance%=1.6055"

Ruderico

NW_Iberia_IA,81.4
Berber_EMA,11
Roman_Colonial,7.6


and when I add the Sardinian outlier of north African origin:

[1] "distance%=1.5012"

Ruderico

NW_Iberia_IA,80.8
Roman_Colonial,7.8
ITA_Sardinia_C_o,7
Berber_EMA,4.4

As you can see the total north African share is pretty much the same, but fit improved considerably, and the reason was that this sample eats up most of the original NA reference. Using same the principle you used one would conclude the reason would be because this part of my ancestry is quite ancient, and dating back to the CA or BA, but myself being an ethnic Portuguese makes this possibility very implausible.



PCA plot (made with Iberia in mind, though)
https://i.postimg.cc/8P8WVxNL/sard-outlier.png

maroco
01-13-2021, 04:19 PM
I would say they are like modern North Africans, even someone like me with a heavy amount of Arabian ancestry I can use them as a proxy for the majority of my ancestry:

Distance: 1.2433% / 0.01243332 | R3P
67.1 Canary_Islands_Guanche
24.3 Levant_JOR_EBA
8.6 West_African_(simulated)

Distance: 2.5314% / 0.02531397 | R3P
68.3 Canary_Islands_Guanche
23.1 Levant_JOR_EBA
8.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Guanche results on Neolithic model:

Distance: 2.9281% / 0.02928074
Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun012
40.2 Early_European_Farmer
39.9 Iberomaurusian
7.1 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.5 Early_Levantine_Farmer
5.9 Africa_Mesolithic
0.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Distance: 2.1511% / 0.02151080
Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun011
38.0 Iberomaurusian
37.5 Early_European_Farmer
8.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
5.6 Early_Levantine_Farmer
4.7 Africa_Mesolithic
3.3 Iran_Neolithic
2.7 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Distance: 2.2143% / 0.02214272
Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun008
44.9 Early_European_Farmer
30.4 Iberomaurusian
12.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.0 Africa_Mesolithic
5.9 Early_Levantine_Farmer
0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Distance: 2.7399% / 0.02739895
Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun005
43.8 Early_European_Farmer
29.1 Iberomaurusian
10.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
7.7 Early_Levantine_Farmer
4.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.1 Africa_Mesolithic
0.5 Ancient_Dravidian

Distance: 3.0572% / 0.03057166
Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun002
42.3 Early_European_Farmer
40.1 Iberomaurusian
5.9 Steppe_Pastoralist
4.8 Africa_Mesolithic
3.0 Early_Levantine_Farmer
2.0 Iran_Neolithic
1.7 Ancient_Dravidian
0.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

ThaYamamoto
01-13-2021, 04:32 PM
Could some of the Yamnaya/Steppe in NAs be coming from the Vandals?

Cabaon
01-14-2021, 04:25 PM
Could some of the Yamnaya/Steppe in NAs be coming from the Vandals?

Not really because vandals settled in the north-eastern part of the maghreb only, especially around Carthage and did not mix with the locals. Reasons involved are their christian doctrine : arianism while North Africans were catholics and the local aristocracy was obviously not willing to mix with people who exiled, killed or despoiled them.


We do not see, in the sources, any indication of a promotion towards "Germanity", whereas in the Roman Empire, all pilgrims had a vocation to become a citizen. Moreover, confessional hostility prohibited mixed marriages, so that it can be said that two peoples coexisted in the kingdom. [...] Certain authors, like F.Martroye affirm that the vandal kings were hostile to mixed unions for fear of seeing the discipline of their warriors dissolve in Africitas. We are all the more justified in doubting the homogeneity of society - it was in fact limited to the merger between the Vandals and Alans - that it is difficult to believe in a "class collaboration", insofar as the aristocracy, ousted and despoiled, held a grudge against the Vandals even if some of its members had escaped exile. Even those who had loyally "collaborated" with the Vandals, such as Carthage proconsul Victorianus, whose dedication to the king is remembered, were ultimately eliminated for religious reasons.

Africa quasi Roma by Jean-Marie Lassčre, p671

They were later defeated by Byzantines in 533 and expelled from Africa ( the last king Gelimer was sent to Galatia, his soldiers were enslaved and the elite of it was transferred in the East : one part incorporated into the imperial guard in Constantinople and the rest formed five units of cavalry called "Vandali Iustiniani" and were installed along the shores of the Euphrates).

Also we're talking about a kingdom that only lasted 1 century and involved a small community of 80 000 individuals.


This steppe ancestry among north africans probably appeared during the Bronze Age and that is supported by archeological evidence such as Bell Beaker ceramics and weapons :

https://i.imgur.com/JkjHkA5.png
https://i.imgur.com/wp2X41w.png

SilkRoad
01-15-2021, 06:39 AM
Could some of the Yamnaya/Steppe in NAs be coming from the Vandals?
See the post above I guess. It might even be closer to 50%, it depends how the Bell Beakers were , were they 20% steppe or 30% steppe?

The Saite
01-18-2021, 08:20 PM
I would say they are like modern North Africans, even someone like me with a heavy amount of Arabian ancestry

Sure you have direct Arabian tho? mind me asking I wondered if you maybe came of an Area with usual historic excess historic Natufian like or PPN

maroco
01-18-2021, 09:37 PM
Sure you have direct Arabian tho? mind me asking I wondered if you maybe came of an Area with excess historic Natufian like or PPN since old times.

Not that I know off I tested my mothers sister she has an excess of natufian dna, my father seems to be a normal Berber.
I did find some similar people to me, that had more natufian or the same amount, it’s all dependent on the model I’m using to be honest I can model myself without the Levantine or Anatolian samples

4268242681

On average I would say I’m around 20 percent natufian, my Arabian ancestry can range from 12 percent to as high as 20 percent in moderns using certain references, but I can model myself without any arab samples

Also if we bare in mind the cooper age North African samples that were found with natufian


Sorry if I’m not coherent just came back from work, I hope I was understandable