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Muslim-Arbegna
11-16-2019, 03:45 AM
How did Tropical West African-like people took over SE Africa, and how did South Cushitic people got extinct? was it through war and conflict, or did they got bred out of existence like Neanderthals, or were their technology were not efficient compare to Niger-Congos?

Mirix
09-20-2020, 08:03 AM
It was certaintly not through war or genocide postulated by people who mention Bantu expansion. Because of lack of evidence. There was certaintly a way of either migratory obsorption i reckon its was due to larger population and mass scale movements. That migration also pushed those groups overhelmed by the sheer numbers away into other territories (Primarily in the horn) while the few ones that remained were assimilated and absorbed.

I believe this is how it played out and it makes more sense than some genocide. Especially considering how Southern Cushitic speaking groups who proceeded them were relatively more advanced in weaponry tools (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savanna_Pastoral_Neolithic and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azania ), it wouldn't make sense for relatively less armed/advanced bantus to be able to genocide these armed established populations.

You can see how this number absorption and assimilation took place in modern times with the Yaaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaaku_language and the there were only 3 Yaaku cushitic speakers until late. There was no force, genocide murder or war that brought that about. Then there is IraqW cushites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqw_people who managed to survive the mass wave. But they are substantially mixed between Nilotic and bantu speakers. With E1b1b haplogroup of 56% from their original cushitic ancestry and Haplogroup B of 22% from Nilotic and E1b1a haplogroup of 11% from Bantu.


I think the best way to explain what occured is to visualize that you and your friends are 3 people and group of 100 people came in your direction, you would be gulfed up and overtaken by those 100 peoples if you remained or you would move away to somewhere else. I think this is what happened to the South Cushites when a mass wave of Niger-congo speakers headed their way.

gihanga.rwanda
09-20-2020, 12:25 PM
@Mirix How were iron smelting Bantu farmers less advanced than Cushitic pastoralists?

@OP The incoming Bantus absorbed the pastoralists and hunter-gatherers that they found in the region; we know this by analyzing the dna of both ancient and contemporary populations in the region. For example, the young boy from Deloraine farm (~1000 bp) is an early putative Bantu but already exhibits South Cushitic ancestry. Furthermore, most “savanna Bantus” in Kenya and Tanzania such as the Kikuyu, Sukuma, and Chagga - as well as Rwanda-Burundi - have varying degrees of significant South Cushitic ancestry.

A similar process of expansion and assimilation/absorption took place in Southern Africa (Bantu + Khoi-Sandawe and Kx’a-Tuu) and Madagascar (Bantu + Austronesian).

Mirix
09-20-2020, 01:45 PM
@Mirix How were iron smelting Bantu farmers less advanced than Cushitic pastoralists?

@OP The incoming Bantus absorbed the pastoralists and hunter-gatherers that they found in the region; we know this by analyzing the dna of both ancient and contemporary populations in the region. For example, the young boy from Deloraine farm (~1000 bp) is an early putative Bantu but already exhibits South Cushitic ancestry. Furthermore, most “savanna Bantus” in Kenya and Tanzania such as the Kikuyu, Sukuma, and Chagga - as well as Rwanda-Burundi - have varying degrees of significant South Cushitic ancestry.

A similar process of expansion and assimilation/absorption took place in Southern Africa (Bantu + Khoi-Sandawe and Kx’a-Tuu) and Madagascar (Bantu + Austronesian).

They also made use of Iron metallurgy also called ''The Pastoral Iron age'' which was a continuation of pastoral economic activities with the use of ceramics, stone technology and iron usage. some even refer to them as metal using herders. I assume they were more sophisticated because of how they developed a austronomical-calendaric system https://science.sciencemag.org/content/200/4343/766 , seem to have an established state structure ,cities under ''Azania'' according greco-roman writers.

NetNomad
09-20-2020, 03:34 PM
Furthermore, most “savanna Bantus” in Kenya and Tanzania such as the Kikuyu, Sukuma, and Chagga - as well as Rwanda-Burundi - have varying degrees of significant South Cushitic ancestry.

Isn't there a difference in Tanzania between the North and the South. I think only North Tanzania Bantus have substantial S-Cushitic (maybe also around Lake Tanganyika), because in Malawi and Mozambique it is very low and I assume South Tanzania must be similar or at least on a cline in this direction.

The near total replacement of the Malawi hunter-gatherers is more surprising IMO. Little trace of them around Lake Malawi populations.

Brwn_trd
09-20-2020, 03:51 PM
I'm not sure about east africa but an analogous situation for the southern african Khoi pastoralists and the bantu might shed light on this. There, the dynamic was due to the production strategies employed by the two populations. The bantu employed a diversified production strategy while the khoi, similar to cushites were specialised pastoralists. My conjecture is to consider a dynamic analogous of a stock portfolio, with the bantu having a more diversified portfolio while the khoi had a specialised portfolio.

A bad year could take pastoralists up to a generation to recover from, whereas mixed farmers could recover in a couple of years. Additionally pastoralists were engaged in persistent warfare, raiding for cattle in which many groups were impoverished. Their enemies were other khoi tribes not the bantu, with whom they did not compete. Some impoverished khoi became hunter gatherers again while some neighboring bantu communities formed bonds with the bantu. Entire tribes of khoi who had lost their cattle would become Xhosa clans by inventing a genealogy linking them to wider Xhosa descent and submitting to a big chief. Once this happened, social and cultural barriers to gene flow disappeared and in a few generations complete assimilation occured.

This dynamic was witnessed by a european explorer within historical times. It is conjecture to project this dynamic to east africa, but I find it interesting that the remaining southern cushites are not pastoralists but mixed agricuturalists. Similarly, east africa has high levels of admixture comparable to southern africa. Cultural symbiosis and assimilation today in east africa is exemplified by the relations between Rendille and Samburu, although both populations are pastoralist but in different niches.

I always wonder how first contact between two different peoples happens and find it fascinating how mechanisms of intercourse occur. Extensive gene flow must be explained by some underlying dynamic. Naive populations don't mate.

gihanga.rwanda
09-20-2020, 06:27 PM
They also made use of Iron metallurgy also called ''The Pastoral Iron age'' which was a continuation of pastoral economic activities with the use of ceramics, stone technology and iron usage. some even refer to them as metal using herders. I assume they were more sophisticated because of how they developed a austronomical-calendaric system https://science.sciencemag.org/content/200/4343/766 , seem to have an established state structure ,cities under ''Azania'' according greco-roman writers.

I am not very well versed in this subject area but I suspect that South Cushitic communities adopted Iron Age technology from incoming Nilotic and Bantu migrants. We now know that Iron Age pastoralists in the region had elevated levels of Dinka-related ancestry in comparison to their predecessors represented by the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic and Elmenteitan cultures. These same Iron Age pastoralists lived in close proximity to early Bantu speakers related to groups like the Delomaine farmer community. I definitely haven’t seen any credible evidence that South Cushitic communities had a more “advanced” material culture than their Nilotic or Bantu contemporaries. However, we can argue that Bantus had more of a advantage due to their early adoption of agriculture, which enabled them to maintain higher population sizes, develop advanced sedentary societies, and become the demographic majority in the region within a few centuries.

I don’t think the author of the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and other seafarers who navigated the coast of what is now Kenya and Tanzania encountered a coherent culture. The region of “Azania” probably consisted of numerous settlements - marketplaces, villages, and trading posts (they definitely weren’t full fledge city states at that point in time) - inhabited by a variety of communities, including East/South Cushitic and Bantu speakers and eastern/southern hunter-gatherers. I am confident that the people of Rhapta were early Bantus since they were apparently “tillers of the land” or farmers. Putative Bantu speakers had already begun to settle along the East African coast as far north as central Kenya by the BC/AD turnover and their associated material culture can be found on offshore islands (e.g. Koma, Kwale, Mafia, Unguja, etc.) by the first half of the first millennium AD. It wasn’t until ~500 AD that we begin to see the emergence of true “metropolises” in this part of Africa, which coincides with the spread of proto-Sabaki speakers and related groups speaking NE Coastal Bantu dialects and the emergence of an early “Swahili” urbanite culture. I don’t doubt that South Cushitic speakers were present along the coast but I don’t think they were particularly numerous. If you subtract non-African admixture, Swahili and other Sabaki speakers are more West African shifted then their Bantu counterparts around the Great Lakes and along the Rift Valley who have elevated South Cushitic and/or Nilotic ancestry.

I don’t know enough about this austronomical-calendaric system to comment.

gihanga.rwanda
09-20-2020, 06:34 PM
Isn't there a difference in Tanzania between the North and the South. I think only North Tanzania Bantus have substantial S-Cushitic (maybe also around Lake Tanganyika), because in Malawi and Mozambique it is very low and I assume South Tanzania must be similar or at least on a cline in this direction.

The near total replacement of the Malawi hunter-gatherers is more surprising IMO. Little trace of them around Lake Malawi populations.

You might be right but I am not sure. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a positive correlation between elevated South Cushitic ancestry in SE Africa and the location of Pastoral Neolithic and Iron Age sites (see map below). The Tutsi/Hima and related groups would be the only exception to this rule; the Mbugu might be another exception but they could be the result of Bantu/East Cushitic admixture.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paul_Lane2/publication/311713334/figure/fig1/AS:[email protected]/Location-of-the-major-Pastoral-Neolithic-and-Pastoral-Iron-Age-sites-in-Kenya-and.png

Granary
09-20-2020, 09:52 PM
Why didn't farming spread to this region before?

drobbah
09-20-2020, 10:30 PM
Why didn't farming spread to this region before?
I think South Cushites left the Horn prior to the Horn developing agriculture.

Granary
09-21-2020, 01:09 AM
I think South Cushites left the Horn prior to the Horn developing agriculture.
Didn't Cushites have agriculture in the Ethiopian highlands during the Eurasian Bronze Age?

drobbah
09-21-2020, 04:18 AM
Didn't Cushites have agriculture in the Ethiopian highlands during the Eurasian Bronze Age?
The South Cushites were in SE Africa when Horners learned to cultivate teff,millet and sorghum I think.

I remember even reading some colonial era sources that stated the agriculture clans of Somaliland/Eastern Ethiopia and Southern Somalia had different agricultural practices/tools.The former were farming similar to Highlanders of Ethiopia and the south were farming similar to the Bantus possible due to the large Bantu population of the South plus the ethnic Somali nomads by far were not interested in farming.If fertile South Somalia didn't receive the Ethiopian Agriculture package than I wouldn't expect the Southern Cushites either

Granary
09-21-2020, 05:37 AM
The South Cushites were in SE Africa when Horners learned to cultivate teff,millet and sorghum I think.

I remember even reading some colonial era sources that stated the agriculture clans of Somaliland/Eastern Ethiopia and Southern Somalia had different agricultural practices/tools.The former were farming similar to Highlanders of Ethiopia and the south were farming similar to the Bantus possible due to the large Bantu population of the South plus the ethnic Somali nomads by far were not interested in farming.If fertile South Somalia didn't receive the Ethiopian Agriculture package than I wouldn't expect the Southern Cushites either

If Southern Somalia was fertile and not exploited, how come Bantus didn't end up expanding there? Just historical circumstances?

Mirix
09-21-2020, 11:47 PM
I am not very well versed in this subject area but I suspect that South Cushitic communities adopted Iron Age technology from incoming Nilotic and Bantu migrants. We now know that Iron Age pastoralists in the region had elevated levels of Dinka-related ancestry in comparison to their predecessors represented by the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic and Elmenteitan cultures. These same Iron Age pastoralists lived in close proximity to early Bantu speakers related to groups like the Delomaine farmer community. I definitely haven’t seen any credible evidence that South Cushitic communities had a more “advanced” material culture than their Nilotic or Bantu contemporaries. However, we can argue that Bantus had more of a advantage due to their early adoption of agriculture, which enabled them to maintain higher population sizes and become the demographic majority in the region within a few centuries.

You are right. I read up a bit about it . The Bantus (descended from the Iron Age/IA culture makers) and the Nilotes (descended from the Pastoral Iron Age/PIA people). I assumed Iron Age Pastoraliasts referred to South Cushitics. This gradual population replacement of that region’s early Cushitic pastoralists is also reflected in the osteological record https://pascal-francis.inist.fr/vibad/index.php?action=getRecordDetail&idt=PASCAL7650006098

But yeah i think my initial hypothesis still stands correct it was more or less a demographic replacement by a mass wave of populations size and absorption that happened that way gradually. It wasn't anything related to war or direct genocide as it seems.

gihanga.rwanda
09-22-2020, 12:06 AM
You are right. I read up a bit about it . The Bantus (descended from the Iron Age/IA culture makers) and the Nilotes (descended from the Pastoral Iron Age/PIA people). I assumed Iron Age Pastoraliasts referred to South Cushitics. This gradual population replacement of that region’s early Cushitic pastoralists is also reflected in the osteological record https://pascal-francis.inist.fr/vibad/index.php?action=getRecordDetail&idt=PASCAL7650006098

But yeah i think my initial hypothesis still stands correct it was more or less a demographic replacement by a mass wave of populations size and absorption that happened that way gradually. It wasn't anything related to war or direct genocide as it seems.

Thanks for sharing the link to the osteological record paper!

Yes it sounds like we’re on the same page. However, it’s worth clarifying that many of the Iron Age pastoralists that were sequenced recently had significant and in some cases predominant South Cushitic-related ancestry. This suggests that early Nilotic speakers from the vicinity of South Sudan quickly absorbed South Cushitic communities as they expanded south through the Great Lakes region and nearby savannas; I suspect that groups like Kalenjin, Datooga, and possibly even Tutsi-Hima descend from these groups. The ancestors of the Maasai, Samburu, Turkana, and other Eastern Nilotic speakers are experiencing a very similar process up to this day (re: Samburu and Rendille; Maasai and Iraqw).

Mirix
09-22-2020, 12:36 AM
If Southern Somalia was fertile and not exploited, how come Bantus didn't end up expanding there? Just historical circumstances?

South Somalia had Ethnic Somalis as agro-pastorialists and farmers along the fertile plains with Rahanweyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahanweyn) being the primary ones. They are mainly a conglomorate of early northern clans that settled there, indicated by their name. The earliest of them probably settled there in 2nd century BC or earlier. So it wasn't unexploited in general per say. I would assume there was certain areas people didn't settle or expand to because of the tetze fly that lives along southern fertile regions in Somalia.

Colonial sources are often outdated and riddled with erroneous conclusion and we have more information now. So i would be cautious citing them. Peoples occupations reflected on their environment/soil as @Awale carefully explained in another thread https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17953-The-territories-of-the-Somali-clans-and-their-historic-migrations-and-wanderings/page5 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17953-The-territories-of-the-Somali-clans-and-their-historic-migrations-and-wanderings&p=679991&viewfull=1#post679991) and that Ethnic Somalis would take up other occupations or substinence activities whenever possible, the idea they were not interested in farming is not wholly correct.

As for the farming practices in Southern Somalia , what i do know is that they did infact cultivate similar crops to the ones in the northern/eastern regions in cultivating Durra or bicolor Sorghum .Since Al-Idrisi stated in 1154 that the Berbers (Somalis) in the Lower Shabeelle Valley, Mugdisho area, were Durra farmers. As it seems the early medieval Muslim records hold that the Durra cultivation was part of the lifestyle in the Horn of Africa and it was a native crop to the region.

Infact the lowlands of North East Africa such as Somalia are regarded to be the original center of the bicolor Sorghum, from which the crop was introduced to the rest of the continent, and to the other world through Middle East and Indo-Pakistan around 3,500 BP.20.

xenus
09-22-2020, 12:58 AM
Philosophically the answer is that every act of creation is an act of destruction. Calling any group pure is just saying that the population underwent homogenization followed by shared drift. A group becoming more heterogenous (or diverse) is just as easy. In this particular case I don't think there is any dramatic war story to be found. Admixture, absorption, displacement, population contraction, etc.

NetNomad
09-22-2020, 10:00 AM
If Southern Somalia was fertile and not exploited, how come Bantus didn't end up expanding there? Just historical circumstances?

Northeast Kenya is kind of arid and acted as a barrier for tropical farmers to continue the same lifestyle.

Also, it was already populated by agricultural groups. Same reason why Bantu farmers didn't expand into Northern Uganda or Southern South Sudan (arid Northwest Kenya barrier).

Granary
09-22-2020, 06:44 PM
Northeast Kenya is kind of arid and acted as a barrier for tropical farmers to continue the same lifestyle.

Also, it was already populated by agricultural groups. Same reason why Bantu farmers didn't expand into Northern Uganda or Southern South Sudan (arid Northwest Kenya barrier).
Were the crops already used by Cushites in the Horn not good for Western Kenya and Tanzania?
I'm trying to understand what exactly gave a demographic edge to the Bantus in respect to the local Cushites that the Bantus didn't have against "Nilo-Saharans" in non-arid North Uganda.

Granary
09-24-2020, 08:36 AM
Isn't there a difference in Tanzania between the North and the South. I think only North Tanzania Bantus have substantial S-Cushitic (maybe also around Lake Tanganyika), because in Malawi and Mozambique it is very low and I assume South Tanzania must be similar or at least on a cline in this direction.

Can anyone confirm this? How far does Cushitic admixture go in modern Bantus and Nilotes in East Africa? I know of course that the Hadza, Sandawe, Maasai and Tutsi have some Cushitic admixture, but what about others?

NetNomad
09-24-2020, 10:11 AM
Can anyone confirm this? How far does Cushitic admixture go in modern Bantus and Nilotes in East Africa? I know of course that the Hadza, Sandawe, Maasai and Tutsi have some Cushitic admixture, but what about others?

There is Malawian and Mozambican autosomal data around, not sure about South Tanzanian, but about them, it is an assumption on my part given what Malawi and Mozambique show.

But who knows.. there could be some surprises since South Cushite admixed Khoisans were recently found in Botswana (Ancient DNA).

Granary
09-24-2020, 02:16 PM
There is Malawian and Mozambican autosomal data around, not sure about South Tanzanian, but about them, it is an assumption on my part given what Malawi and Mozambique show.

But who knows.. there could be some surprises since South Cushite admixed Khoisans were recently found in Botswana (Ancient DNA).
Do you know if Malawian and Mozambican have Cushitic ancestry? I imagine not given the little Malawi HG ancestry, but maybe the Cushitic ancestry was brought by Bantus from the North, IDK

NetNomad
09-25-2020, 10:49 AM
Do you know if Malawian and Mozambican have Cushitic ancestry? I imagine not given the little Malawi HG ancestry, but maybe the Cushitic ancestry was brought by Bantus from the North, IDK

I think this study might answer your questions in regards to the Lake Malawi region:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/697474v1.full

Also, here are some Mozambique G25 data:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)/page47&p=702362#post702362

Granary
09-25-2020, 01:00 PM
I think this study might answer your questions in regards to the Lake Malawi region:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/697474v1.full

Also, here are some Mozambique G25 data:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)/page47&p=702362#post702362

I'll look at the study but the G25 seems to conclusively say there is virtually 0 Cushitic admixture, but there might be Malawi HG ancestry, up to 10-15% in various samples, what do you think? Dinka-like ancestry is at most 6-8% so they retain a lot of their original Bantu ancestry, between 80-100%.

Edit: Whoops I overlooked the fact there were Angolans there, I guess that explains the high West African samples.

ThaYamamoto
09-25-2020, 05:43 PM
I'll look at the study but the G25 seems to conclusively say there is virtually 0 Cushitic admixture, but there might be Malawi HG ancestry, up to 10-15% in various samples, what do you think? Dinka-like ancestry is at most 6-8% so they retain a lot of their original Bantu ancestry, between 80-100%.

Edit: Whoops I overlooked the fact there were Angolans there, I guess that explains the high West African samples.

One of the Makhuwa Mozambicans has definite discernible Cushitic ancestry, as does one Chopi Mozambican individual. You can see Kenya Stone Age is pretty significant throughout, but I'm concerned about what conclusions can be drawn from Ken_LSA and even Dinka when cross comparing Africans due to their positions on the G25 PCA...it could be that LSA compensates for Nilotic+HG ancestral streams on the G25 or however nMonte+G25 deals with this compensation. Even Dinka are barely differentiated from Niger-Congo pops. on there. It seems supervised structure runs like in Tishkoff's original paper might still be the benchmark. Maybe others can shed light on this but after examining the PCAs my confidence in the tool for African cross-comparison is definitely lower than before.

39823

edit: think its actually southern European ancestry.

gihanga.rwanda
09-25-2020, 06:07 PM
There is Malawian and Mozambican autosomal data around, not sure about South Tanzanian, but about them, it is an assumption on my part given what Malawi and Mozambique show.

But who knows.. there could be some surprises since South Cushite admixed Khoisans were recently found in Botswana (Ancient DNA).

Didn’t those Botswana samples have a lot of West African-related ancestry? This makes me think that they were early Bantus who’d absorbed South Cushitic-admixed Khoi pastoralists.

gihanga.rwanda
09-25-2020, 06:10 PM
One of the Makhuwa Mozambicans has definite discernible Cushitic ancestry, as does one Chopi Mozambican individual. You can see Kenya Stone Age is pretty significant throughout, but I'm concerned about what conclusions can be drawn from Ken_LSA and even Dinka when cross comparing Africans due to their positions on the G25 PCA...it could be that LSA compensates for Nilotic+HG ancestral streams on the G25 or however nMonte+G25 deals with this compensation. Even Dinka are barely differentiated from Niger-Congo pops. on there. It seems supervised structure runs like in Tishkoff's original paper might still be the benchmark. Maybe others can shed light on this but after examining the PCAs my confidence in the tool for African cross-comparison is definitely lower than before.

39823

Could you replace the Iraqw with the Somali or Borana Oromos?

The Makua are also found in Tanzania so this particular individual might have recent Tanzanian heritage, which could potentially explain why s/he has Iraqw-related ancestry absent in the other Makua individuals.

ThaYamamoto
09-25-2020, 06:54 PM
Could you replace the Iraqw with the Somali or Borana Oromos?

The Makua are also found in Tanzania so this particular individual might have recent Tanzanian heritage, which could potentially explain why s/he has Iraqw-related ancestry absent in the other Makua individuals.

Sure, that's interesting about the Makua tho I ain't know that. That individual plots weirdly also. Are Borana on the spreadsheet?

39824398253982639827

Not too familiar with Nyrandi but the results were interesting. What do you think of including Ken_LSA in these runs purely from a G25 PCA perspective/where they plot? I'm tentative.

drobbah
09-25-2020, 07:01 PM
Could you replace the Iraqw with the Somali or Borana Oromos?

The Makua are also found in Tanzania so this particular individual might have recent Tanzanian heritage, which could potentially explain why s/he has Iraqw-related ancestry absent in the other Makua individuals.

Target: Mwani:201415
Distance: 4.4520% / 0.04451992
73.0 Yoruba
18.4 KEN_LSA
6.2 Borana_Oromo
2.4 Ju_hoan_North

Target: Makhuwa:1002605
Distance: 6.1600% / 0.06160047
69.6 Yoruba
14.8 Borana_Oromo
12.2 KEN_LSA
3.4 Ju_hoan_North

ThaYamamoto
09-25-2020, 07:19 PM
Actually might be a false alarm - these guys are prolly mixed with Portuguese.

39830

39831

gihanga.rwanda
09-25-2020, 09:11 PM
It’s an old study but Tishkoff et al. 2009 included a lot of samples from Bantu speaking groups from Tanzania; it’s still the most comprehensive study on extant populations in Sub-Saharan Africa, including in Tanzania. You might need to create an AAAS account, but you can access the revised study at the following link.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/324/5930/1035.abstract

The following Bantu tribes from Tanzania were included in the study; Turu, Sukuma, Gogo, Mbugwe, Rangi, Sambaa, Pare, and Mbugu. The latter speaks a mixed Bantu/Cushitic language. With the exception of the Sukumu who can be found south of Lake Victoria, all of the other tribes are from north/central Tanzania and exhibit pretty significant Cushitic-related ancestry comparable to the Kikuyu.

The north/central Tanzanian Bantus are on average 20-31.2% Cushitic (peaks in the Iraqw and East Cushitic speakers) and 7.7-23.2% Sandawe (a composite cluster that peaks in the group that lended its name and reflects admixed hunter-gatherer/Cushitic/Bantu ancestry). The Sukuma were modeled as 12.5% Cushitic and 10.6% Sandawe, and the Mbugu as 60.5% Cushitic and 3.4% Sandawe. The remaining share of ancestry in all of these groups is overwhelmingly or exclusively Bantu-related. In comparison, Kikuyu were modeled as 35.6% Cushitic, 6.2% Sandawe, and 8.8% Nilotic-related.

It’s not cut and dry but I suspect that Cushitic-related ancestry is most significant (+10%) among Bantu speakers in Groups E and F (according to Guthrie’s classification) who inhabit the same area that was once occupied by Neolithic and Iron Age pastoralists. You have some exceptions like the Tutsi-Hima (Group J) or the Gogo (Group G) but this seems to be the general rule from what I can tell. Bantu speakers in other East African groups tend to have a lot less or no Cushitic ancestry from what I’ve seen: Group J (e.g. Baganda, Luhya), Group G (e.g. Swahili), and Group P (e.g. Makhuwa).

https://bantusyntaxinformationstructure.files.wordpress.co m/2017/12/bantu-map-sil.gif?w=381&h=551&zoom=2

drobbah
09-25-2020, 09:39 PM
Mbugus are interesting because they not only have substantial Cushitic admixture but atleast one linguist has suggested that their language has an East Cushitic substratum rather than a South Cushitic one.Has there been any Y-DNA studies or results from the Mbugu? It would be very interesting if they had E-V32 (especially E-Z813).

gihanga.rwanda
09-25-2020, 10:05 PM
Mbugus are interesting because they not only have substantial Cushitic admixture but atleast one linguist has suggested that their language has an East Cushitic substratum rather than a South Cushitic one.Has there been any Y-DNA studies or results from the Mbugu? It would be very interesting if they had E-V32 (especially E-Z813).

The East Cushitic origins of the Mbugu seems pretty convincing from a linguistic standpoint. I know that the majority of the yDNA lineages among the Mbugu are E-M215 (followed by E-M2), but I am not sure about the subclades. I suspect that the Mbugu will carry both E-V32 and E-M293 since there is also some linguistic and cultural evidence that their East Cushitic ancestors met and interacted with South Cushitic groups like the Iraqw before they married into Bantu clans.

ThaYamamoto
09-25-2020, 10:24 PM
It’s an old study but Tishkoff et al. 2009 included a lot of samples from Bantu speaking groups from Tanzania; it’s still the most comprehensive study on extant populations in Sub-Saharan Africa, including in Tanzania. You might need to create an AAAS account, but you can access the revised study at the following link.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/324/5930/1035.abstract

The following Bantu tribes from Tanzania were included in the study; Turu, Sukuma, Gogo, Mbugwe, Rangi, Sambaa, Pare, and Mbugu. The latter speaks a mixed Bantu/Cushitic language. With the exception of the Sukumu who can be found south of Lake Victoria, all of the other tribes are from north/central Tanzania and exhibit pretty significant Cushitic-related ancestry comparable to the Kikuyu.

The north/central Tanzanian Bantus are on average 20-31.2% Cushitic (peaks in the Iraqw and East Cushitic speakers) and 7.7-23.2% Sandawe (a composite cluster that peaks in the group that lended its name and reflects admixed hunter-gatherer/Cushitic/Bantu ancestry). The Sukuma were modeled as 12.5% Cushitic and 10.6% Sandawe, and the Mbugu as 60.5% Cushitic and 3.4% Sandawe. The remaining share of ancestry in all of these groups is overwhelmingly or exclusively Bantu-related. In comparison, Kikuyu were modeled as 35.6% Cushitic, 6.2% Sandawe, and 8.8% Nilotic-related.

It’s not cut and dry but I suspect that Cushitic-related ancestry is most significant (+10%) among Bantu speakers in Groups E and F (according to Guthrie’s classification) who inhabit the same area that was once occupied by Neolithic and Iron Age pastoralists. You have some exceptions like the Tutsi-Hima (Group J) or the Gogo (Group G) but this seems to be the general rule from what I can tell. Bantu speakers in other East African groups tend to have a lot less or no Cushitic ancestry from what I’ve seen: Group J (e.g. Baganda, Luhya), Group G (e.g. Swahili), and Group P (e.g. Makhuwa).

https://bantusyntaxinformationstructure.files.wordpress.co m/2017/12/bantu-map-sil.gif?w=381&h=551&zoom=2

Yeah Tishkoff's work is still up there for me as being the benchmark in many ways. You can find the same Tazanian groups in both supervised+unsupervised at certain Ks ran in this paper/supplements: Genetic variation reveals large-scale population expansion and migration during the expansion of Bantu-speaking peoples (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2014.1448)

Do you know the logic behind Guthrie's alphabet classification? I get why Cameroon is A, Gabon B etc, but why Uganda/West Kenya come under J confuses me abit - is it because these zone J peoples are likely more recent migrants from a western dispersal point?

Also for everyone to know, the Ndau, Bitonga , Changana and Ronga samples more so Zimbabwean/South African/Limpopo/Shona/Tsonga peoples so we can profile them as typical Southern type Bantu people.

Granary
09-26-2020, 07:23 AM
One of the Makhuwa Mozambicans has definite discernible Cushitic ancestry, as does one Chopi Mozambican individual. You can see Kenya Stone Age is pretty significant throughout, but I'm concerned about what conclusions can be drawn from Ken_LSA and even Dinka when cross comparing Africans due to their positions on the G25 PCA...it could be that LSA compensates for Nilotic+HG ancestral streams on the G25 or however nMonte+G25 deals with this compensation. Even Dinka are barely differentiated from Niger-Congo pops. on there. It seems supervised structure runs like in Tishkoff's original paper might still be the benchmark. Maybe others can shed light on this but after examining the PCAs my confidence in the tool for African cross-comparison is definitely lower than before.


edit: think its actually southern European ancestry.

Yep, I noticed there was no Levant Natufian or Levant PPNC/PPNB pull and only a mix of other West Eurasian elements, so I was pretty sure that even if there even was real West Eurasian admixture it was very weak and not like the Cushitic signal, especially given it's already an outlier.
Also wouldn't it make sense to use the latest Malawi HG reference too for Mozambique?

ThaYamamoto
09-26-2020, 03:50 PM
Yep, I noticed there was no Levant Natufian or Levant PPNC/PPNB pull and only a mix of other West Eurasian elements, so I was pretty sure that even if there even was real West Eurasian admixture it was very weak and not like the Cushitic signal, especially given it's already an outlier.
Also wouldn't it make sense to use the latest Malawi HG reference too for Mozambique?

Lol yeah my bad I only realised when I was checking unscaled distances to myself and that individual was my closest African distal individual. I'm not sure if Mozambicans have the Malawi HG ancestry [does anyone? Skoglund had them as being completely wiped out right?] and seems like almost half of these samples are actually branches of Shona/Nguni/Tsonga groups but like I said I can't remember if any moderns were found to harbor Malawi HG.

Espoir
09-27-2020, 06:54 PM
With regards to the southern part of Africa, Khoi-San first mixed with Cushites and latter Bantu mixed with the product of the former two. And, later, a second wave of Bantu came in and I think diluted that Cushitic-Khoisan admixture initial Bantu groups had.

Samples from the Iron Age in east Africa may give a clue to what happened.
We have individuals that are 100% Cushitic, others EA-hunter-gatherers. Even, one sample(Kakapel 900BP) is ~90% Nilotic.
This means that ”pure" East African hunter-gatherers, Bantus, Nilotes and Cushites coexisted/persisted till the Iron Age.
This begs the question as under what circumstances led to the “extinction” of Cushitics groups?

Also, in the inter-lacustrine region(Uganda-Rwanda-Burundi-Tanzania-Congo) things are weird there. Bantu speaking groups with high Cushitic admixture seem to have dominated the region. I’ve noticed, except for Buganda and maybe Bunyoro(ruling class of Luo origin)the ruling class of all those kingdoms are heavily Cushitic admixed.

Espoir
09-27-2020, 08:52 PM
Clearly this happened in the Iron Age, but I don’t know what processes led to this
39884

Tsakhur
10-08-2020, 04:20 PM
It’s an old study but Tishkoff et al. 2009 included a lot of samples from Bantu speaking groups from Tanzania; it’s still the most comprehensive study on extant populations in Sub-Saharan Africa, including in Tanzania. You might need to create an AAAS account, but you can access the revised study at the following link.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/324/5930/1035.abstract

The following Bantu tribes from Tanzania were included in the study; Turu, Sukuma, Gogo, Mbugwe, Rangi, Sambaa, Pare, and Mbugu. The latter speaks a mixed Bantu/Cushitic language. With the exception of the Sukumu who can be found south of Lake Victoria, all of the other tribes are from north/central Tanzania and exhibit pretty significant Cushitic-related ancestry comparable to the Kikuyu.

The north/central Tanzanian Bantus are on average 20-31.2% Cushitic (peaks in the Iraqw and East Cushitic speakers) and 7.7-23.2% Sandawe (a composite cluster that peaks in the group that lended its name and reflects admixed hunter-gatherer/Cushitic/Bantu ancestry). The Sukuma were modeled as 12.5% Cushitic and 10.6% Sandawe, and the Mbugu as 60.5% Cushitic and 3.4% Sandawe. The remaining share of ancestry in all of these groups is overwhelmingly or exclusively Bantu-related. In comparison, Kikuyu were modeled as 35.6% Cushitic, 6.2% Sandawe, and 8.8% Nilotic-related.

It’s not cut and dry but I suspect that Cushitic-related ancestry is most significant (+10%) among Bantu speakers in Groups E and F (according to Guthrie’s classification) who inhabit the same area that was once occupied by Neolithic and Iron Age pastoralists. You have some exceptions like the Tutsi-Hima (Group J) or the Gogo (Group G) but this seems to be the general rule from what I can tell. Bantu speakers in other East African groups tend to have a lot less or no Cushitic ancestry from what I’ve seen: Group J (e.g. Baganda, Luhya), Group G (e.g. Swahili), and Group P (e.g. Makhuwa).

https://bantusyntaxinformationstructure.files.wordpress.co m/2017/12/bantu-map-sil.gif?w=381&h=551&zoom=2

Interesting, Im guessing Southern Tanzanian tribes have very little to no Cushitic ancestry? Assuming that the Makhuwa and Yao (there seem to be a group of them in Tanzania in the map) represent Southern Tanzanian Bantus well...

Ekem Oha
10-23-2020, 03:28 PM
In oral history you can read that the new elites took the Bachwezi women as their wives and a lot of the new elites took in a lot of Chwezi culture through these women.

Espoir
10-25-2020, 04:42 AM
In oral history you can read that the new elites took the Bachwezi women as their wives and a lot of the new elites took in a lot of Chwezi culture through these women.

What kingdoms are you talking about? Bunyoro or?

drobbah
10-25-2020, 05:33 AM
Sadly the Iraqw are the only remaining South Cushitic language that will most likely survive the next few decades.It's seems us East Cushites were the most successful branch of the family, Oromo and Somali speakers combined are atleast 60 million strong.Beja seems to be a dying language because of Sudanese Arabic and same with the Agw language of Northern Ethiopia but because of Amharic.

gihanga.rwanda
10-25-2020, 12:57 PM
Sadly the Iraqw are the only remaining South Cushitic language that will most likely survive the next few decades.It's seems us East Cushites were the most successful branch of the family, Oromo and Somali speakers combined are atleast 60 million strong.Beja seems to be a dying language because of Sudanese Arabic and same with the Agw language of Northern Ethiopia but because of Amharic.

I actually have a lot of faith in the Beja in retaining their language. Besides the Ababda of Egypt (Arabized) and Beni-Amer (Ethio-Semitized via Tigre), the main clans in Sudan including southern sub clans of the Ababda still speak Beja as their mother tongue alongside Sudanese Arabic. The Beja have managed to hold firm despite literally thousands of years of pressure from foreign powers from the Ancient Egyptians, successive “Kushite” or “Nubian” dynasties, Aksumites, to Arabs, both peninsular and Sudanese. I hope that the new government taking form in Khartoum values ethnic/linguistic diversity and doesn’t adopt the same Arab supremacist policies that almost tore the country apart; Sudanese Arabic should be the official language of the government since it’s the lingua franca, but languages like Beja, Nubian, Fur, Nuba etc. should be given official status. Maybe this is hopeful thinking on my part; I’ve always been fascinated by the Beja and would hate to see their language fade into history.

Espoir
10-25-2020, 01:39 PM
Sadly the Iraqw are the only remaining South Cushitic language that will most likely survive the next few decades.It's seems us East Cushites were the most successful branch of the family, Oromo and Somali speakers combined are atleast 60 million strong.Beja seems to be a dying language because of Sudanese Arabic and same with the Agw language of Northern Ethiopia but because of Amharic.

Its unfortunate. Does anyone know if there is any literature on Southern Cushitic languages other than Iraqw? In other words, how many sothern cushitic languages were there before they went extinct?

From what I read, they seemed pretty diversed. e.g: Elmenteiten culture was different from the rest(archeogically).

Sunshine
11-03-2020, 11:37 AM
The Southern Cushites were absorbed by the neighbouring Bantu and Nilotic communities. These are the probable Cushitic groups I know of in the East African region. Sometimes the texts vary and some may be considered Cushitic to some or other groups (Hunter gatherer, Bantu, Nilotic) since it’s based on oral history. Some are also considered extinct: Ormo, Rendille, Gabra, Konso, Waata, El Molo, Bulji, Sakuye, Aweer, Bajuni, Yaaku, Dahalo, Aramanik, Taita Cushitic, Dasenach, Gorowa, Alagwa, Kwʼadza, Asa.

Justnotyou
12-26-2020, 01:41 PM
It was certaintly not through war or genocide postulated by people who mention Bantu expansion. Because of lack of evidence. There was certaintly a way of either migratory obsorption i reckon its was due to larger population and mass scale movements. That migration also pushed those groups overhelmed by the sheer numbers away into other territories (Primarily in the horn) while the few ones that remained were assimilated and absorbed.

I believe this is how it played out and it makes more sense than some genocide. Especially considering how Southern Cushitic speaking groups who proceeded them were relatively more advanced in weaponry tools (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savanna_Pastoral_Neolithic and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azania ), it wouldn't make sense for relatively less armed/advanced bantus to be able to genocide these armed established populations

What evidence do you have to affirmatively suggest the Tanzanian Bantus they encountered had inferior weaponry in relation to the southern Cushite?

From what I can gather there is evidence to support some Bantus like the Haya had been smelting carbon steel for around 2000 years in northern Tanzania https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/009346983791504228