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IrishNorse
01-18-2014, 05:30 AM
Hello,

First post & just received my Geno 2.0 test results.

I tested positive for R1a L448 with H1 on my mothers side.

I also tested at FTDNA with 37 markers. Test kit #309012

My paper trail is Irish on both sides back to 1800.

Surname doesn't help since it is the most common in the western world.

Funds are rather limited currently but would like to consider an additonal test perhaps for L176.1. Open to suggestions.

The one interesting one I've found is F1529+ which I've spent most of the day trying to find with others in the M417 group & L448 but haven't found one.

Can anyone enlighten me if F1529 is common for L448 or uncommon?

Thanks,

Tom




Results from Geno 2.0
CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10627+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11411+, CTS11575+, CTS11720+, CTS11726+, CTS11734+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1619+, CTS1996+, CTS2907+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3548+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5164+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5508+, CTS5532+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8008+, CTS8243+, CTS8851+, CTS8980+, CTS9596+, CTS9754+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1050+, F1088+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1529+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1769+, F180+, F1808+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2215+, F2234+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2684+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F2901+, F2948+, F295+, F2957+, F2985+, F2993+, F3044+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F3159+, F3185+, F3194+, F3197+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F3337+, F3364+, F3398+, F344+, F3466+, F3551+, F3556+, F356+, F3570+, F359+, F3644+, F3650+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F4099+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F886+, F928+, F93+, F947+, F989+, L122+, L132+, L145+, L146+, L15+, L16+, L168+, L350+, L448+, L457+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L498+, L566+, L62+, L63+, L721+, L747+, L768+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M17+, M198+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M417+, M42+, M45+, M459+, M512+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, PAGES00007+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6145+, PF6151+, PF6158+, PF6159+, PF6162+, PF6165+, PF6167+, PF6169+, PF6170+, PF6210+, PF6211+, PF6214+, PF6215+, PF6216+, PF6218+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF7530+, PF7540+, PF7542+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, Z282+, Z283+

cmorley
01-18-2014, 09:30 AM
Hi Tom.

Welcome!

Yes, your F1529+ is the most interesting aspect of your results.

This is the first instance I've seen of F1529 within R1a-L448. There is one other instance of F1529 in my Geno dataset: in all the haplogroup N results. This could make recognition of F1529 as a structure-defining SNP within R1a-L448 a bit controversial.

I see you're already joined the R1a1a and Subclades project, and that they've placed you in section 8.B*. Section 8.B is for R1a results which are positive for L448 but negative for the child clade defined by CTS4179. The "*" at the end of your section name indicates that you don't appear to belong to any of the existing STR clusters within 8.B (8.B1 through 8.B9).

Elsewhere I proposed the existence of a L448+ CTS4179- cluster defined by DYS395S1=15-17 (instead of the usual 17-17). Based on your similarities with kit 268010 (also currently classified as 8.B*, based on its la carte CTS4179- result), I think you are a candidate for this cluster. The project admins will probably require you to upgrade to 67 markers or have DYS395S1 tested before they formally recognise this cluster.

Kits 260787 and N83110 share a common earliest known ancestor and may lie on the "fringe" of this STR cluster. If this is the case, then F1529 does not encompass this entire cluster; N83110 was Geno tested, and was not reported F1529+.

I have a list of other kits -- not currently part of the R1a1a and Subclades project -- which also display the 15-17 motif. To my knowledge no other members of this cluster have done Geno testing.

I recommend downloading your raw Geno results from the Genographic website and sending it to Michał from the R1a1a and Subclades project administration team. He maintains a spreadsheet for R1a Geno 2.0 results. He can confirm that you are L448+ CTS4179- and that there aren't any irregularities with your data.

I wouldn't recommend testing L176.1. That marker defines a clade within R1a-CTS4179, and the FTDNA-transferred data suggests you are CTS4179-. Additionally, you lack the DYS459=8-10 motif found in most L176.1 individuals.

IrishNorse
01-18-2014, 01:07 PM
Hi CMorley,

Thank you for your input.

I was thinking that Geno 2.0 didn't test for CTS4179 since I didn't see Z284+ on my list which I thought strange since it is upstream from L448. Can you tell me if F1529 is upstream of L448 and beneath Z284 or is F1529 below L448?

Since you thought I may be negative for CTS4179, I checked the raw data and found it listed as CTS4179 Y T T. I thought since Z284 wasn't in the file that Geno 2.0 didn't test for CTS4179. I'm very new to all this, but i take it that T T means I'm negative for CTS 4179?

It may be awhile for me to do additional testing the boss (aka wife) will have a cow.

Thanks for you insights.

cmorley
01-18-2014, 08:06 PM
Hi CMorley,

Thank you for your input.

I was thinking that Geno 2.0 didn't test for CTS4179 since I didn't see Z284+ on my list which I thought strange since it is upstream from L448. Can you tell me if F1529 is upstream of L448 and beneath Z284 or is F1529 below L448?

Since you thought I may be negative for CTS4179, I checked the raw data and found it listed as CTS4179 Y T T. I thought since Z284 wasn't in the file that Geno 2.0 didn't test for CTS4179. I'm very new to all this, but i take it that T T means I'm negative for CTS 4179?

It may be awhile for me to do additional testing the boss (aka wife) will have a cow.

Thanks for you insights.

See the diagram at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=news for the structure of R1a-L448 and information on which markers are tested by the Geno chip. The Geno chip tests CTS4179 and L448, but not Z284. You are positive for L448, and that is below Z284, so we can safely assume you are Z284+.

In short, "T T" means you are CTS4179-. One would expect a Geno result of "C C" for somebody who is CTS4179+. T is the negative (ancestral) state and C is the positive (derived) state.

Since you are the only one within R1a-L448 who has tested positive for F1529, this would imply that F1529 is downstream/beneath L448, and parallel to CTS4179 and PF4661. Like F1529, PF4661 to my knowledge has only been found in one L448+ CTS4179- individual to date.

IrishNorse
01-19-2014, 03:53 AM
The project admins will probably require you to upgrade to 67 markers or have DYS395S1 tested before they formally recognise this cluster.


Given the issue of F1529 located in Haplogroup N, I wonder if it would require an upgrade to 111 markers rather than just 67 or test for DYS525=10 and DYS552=23 perhaps?

I emailed Michał as you suggested.

cmorley
01-22-2014, 07:03 AM
Are you referring to this post (http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=16225&sid=92dbf1771bb5827df73ecb54b81d74c7#p16225)? Michał (and/or Mariusz) proposed DYS525=10 and DYS552=23 as indicators of the cluster now known as 8.B3.

Michał also pointed out that L448+ with DYS525=10 might be a predictor of a CTS4179- result. This has since turned out to be the case. (Or, rather, most L448+ CTS4179+ results have DYS525=11. There are a couple of exceptions.) This leaves DYS552=23 as the only real indicator of 8.B3.

DYS552 (from the 68-111 panel) would be needed to test your membership in 8.B3. FTDNA offers several of the markers from this panel for individual order. Unfortunately, both DYS552 and DYS525 are not available outside of the full-blown 111-marker test.

I don't really think testing at 111 markers is essential for you at this stage. Especially if you are testing on a budget.

Going by your first 37 markers, you are in decent proximity to kit 245109, which has tested at 111 markers and follows the DYF395S1=15-17 pattern I described previously. This kit has DYS552=24 (the usual value for non-8.B3 clusters). The same can be said for the other two 111-marker kits with DYF395S1=15-17. Conversely, none of the 8.B3 results have DYF395S1=15-17. So I think the boundaries between the "15-17" cluster and 8.B3 are pretty well-defined.

Moreover, the three existing 111-marker results for this proposed "15-17" cluster don't really have any common distinguishing features in the 68-111 range.

My advice:
(1) Invite some of your closest matches to join the R1a1a and Subclades project. I'll PM you a list of surnames fitting the 15-17 pattern. This should provide the R1a1a and Subclades project with enough STR evidence for your cluster to get recognised.
(2) When the next sale comes around (usually April or June), upgrade your kit to 67 markers. This will prove/disprove your membership in this cluster. Upgrade to 111 at a later date, if necessary.
(3) I've asked FTDNA to offer F1529 for a la carte testing. Strategically testing members of this cluster will allow for the determination of F1529's scope. Maybe they will offer it by the time your lab results are complete. I wouldn't get my hopes up, though -- the market for this particular SNP won't be very big.

Another option is to order DYS395S1 individually (US$25, through the "Advanced Tests" section). This will determine whether you have the 15-17 pattern, but won't help with your matching to other surnames.


The project admins will probably require you to upgrade to 67 markers or have DYS395S1 tested before they formally recognise this cluster.

I should have worded that more carefully. The existence within the R1a1a and Subclades project of a couple of L448+ CTS4179- kits with DYF395S1=15-17 should be sufficient for this cluster to be recognised. But the project admins will probably require you to upgrade to 67 markers (or at a minimum have DYS395S1 tested) before they formally place you in this cluster. And other members of this cluster will be more likely to test for F1529 if you've proven you share the uncommon DYS395S1 = 15-17 motif.

IrishNorse
02-28-2014, 05:46 PM
Just received my test results back (Batch 553) and as you suggested it was indeed DYF395S1=15-17.