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View Full Version : Did Greeks leave any genetic imprint on Iberia or southern France?



Sikeliot
11-20-2019, 01:52 AM
Greeks clearly left an imprint on Anatolia and Italy. So if they also settled in southern France and eastern Iberia, how come they do not appear to have left any genetic legacy there?

Did they not settle there densely and just ruled the region? Or did their input get erased by other migrations? Or am I wrong, and there is discernible impact?

TonyC
11-20-2019, 10:31 PM
How are Corsicans modeled on G 25? Any Southern French samples?

Milkyway
11-22-2019, 01:19 PM
Greeks clearly left an imprint on Anatolia and Italy. So if they also settled in southern France and eastern Iberia, how come they do not appear to have left any genetic legacy there?

Did they not settle there densely and just ruled the region? Or did their input get erased by other migrations? Or am I wrong, and there is discernible impact?

They apparently did according to Olalde et al. 2019 (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_2.pdf)(quoted below):


In the historical period, our transect begins with 24 individuals from the 5th century BCE to the 6th century CE from the Greek colony of Emp˙ries in the northeast (19) who fall into two main ancestry groups (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S8): one similar to Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean, and the other similar to Iron Age Iberians such as those from the nearby non Greek site of Ullastret, confirming historical sources indicating that this town was inhabited by a multiethnic population (19). The impact of mobility from the central/eastern Mediterranean during the Classical period is also evident in 10 individuals from the 7th to 8th century CE site of L'Esquerda in the northeast, who show a shift from the Iron Age population in the direction of present-day Italians and Greeks (Fig.1D) that accounts for approximately one-quarter of their ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S17). The same shift is also observed in present-day Iberians outside the Basque area and is plausibly a consequence of the Roman presence in the peninsula, which had a profound cultural impact and, according to our data, a substantial genetic impact too.

Ruderico
11-22-2019, 01:26 PM
They apparently did according to Olalde et al. 2019 (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_2.pdf)(quoted below):


The same shift is also observed in present-day Iberians outside the Basque area and is plausibly a consequence of the Roman presence in the peninsula

There were only a few Greek colonies on the coastline, but 600 years of Roman presence in the peninsula

Milkyway
11-22-2019, 01:32 PM
There were only a few Greek colonies on the coastline, but 600 years of Roman presence in the peninsula

Yes, these were likely "Romanized" Greeks, but Sikeliot is talking about genetic influence (or so I understood it).

Principe
11-22-2019, 03:48 PM
Greeks clearly left an imprint on Anatolia and Italy. So if they also settled in southern France and eastern Iberia, how come they do not appear to have left any genetic legacy there?

Did they not settle there densely and just ruled the region? Or did their input get erased by other migrations? Or am I wrong, and there is discernible impact?

Whenever we get a large enough sample size from Ancient Greece and analyze the Uniparentals it will be easier to track the Greek genetic influence.

As to the topic I personally do, Marseille was a large Greek city so I can imagine the area surrounding it could have some Greek dna deeply ingrained, as to the percentage probably not a lot.

Sikeliot
11-23-2019, 06:47 PM
They apparently did according to Olalde et al. 2019 (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_2.pdf)(quoted below):

What about Phoenicians in Spain? What is difficult is because modern day southern Spain has a genetic legacy from northern Spain.

When the Reconquista occurred, it led to a population transfer from southern Spain to Morocco (Arabized Iberians who refused to convert), and brought Christians from northern Spain into the south. So some of the Roman, Greek, Phoenician input into southern Spain may have been pushed out.

But Greeks were large scale settlers, which we see in places like southern Italy and Anatolia. It would be very difficult for me to imagine they had a very minimal presence in their colonies in Spain and France.

Milkyway
11-23-2019, 10:25 PM
What about Phoenicians in Spain? What is difficult is because modern day southern Spain has a genetic legacy from northern Spain.

When the Reconquista occurred, it led to a population transfer from southern Spain to Morocco (Arabized Iberians who refused to convert), and brought Christians from northern Spain into the south. So some of the Roman, Greek, Phoenician input into southern Spain may have been pushed out.

But Greeks were large scale settlers, which we see in places like southern Italy and Anatolia. It would be very difficult for me to imagine they had a very minimal presence in their colonies in Spain and France.

I am not sure if it's possible to detect admixture and replacement events when two populations are very closely related. That may be the case of Northern vs. Southern Spanish populations: it's difficult to quantify how many people moved from North to South during Reconquista because the differences have (apparently) never been that big, or at least they don't follow a North vs. South pattern.

Perhaps another example are the Moors: some of their Y-chromosome haplogroups (E1b subclades) were probably present in Iberia since the Neolithic and it's not an easy task to determine which ones arrived during the Muslim invasion from 711 AD onwards.

Likewise, I imagine it's difficult to determine whether most present-day Iberians are descended from Roman colonizers or from Iberians/Celts, because the two are also closely related. I'd personally expect a much higher genetic impact from the Romans than the Greeks or Phoenicians in Iberia and France considering they had been under the rule of the Roman Empire for ~7 centuries.

There's not a lot of data from France, but this work (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/712497v2) indicates that there's some structure in the hexagon (for example, the South-Western French are closer to Basques, while those from the South-East are somewhat closer to other Southern Europeans, including Italians).