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Amhas
11-24-2019, 12:45 AM
Hello everyone,

I wanted to share with you few Moroccan results from ftdna, just to give you an idea about regional differences.

Northern Moroccans (Djebala Arabophones + Riffians) usually score elevated NA + Euro, and almost no middle eastern or subsaharan.

Arabophone from NW Morocco:

https://i.imgur.com/Mjp5aEJ.jpg


Berber from Rif:

https://i.imgur.com/EO8mbM4.jpg


The region of Fès has basically 3 groups, the Berber (mainly Middle Atlassians), the Arabophones (mainly Berbers with minor arabic influence) and the urban native of Fès (Fassi), this city was the largest Moroccan/ Maghrebi city until it was surpassed by Casablanca in the 20th century, Fès was originally populated by Andalusians from Sevilla, and due to its history it received continuous flows from Iberia, also this city had a large jewish population, the biggest "mellah" (jewish neighborhood) in the Arab world was in Fès.
Out of the 3 groups, the urban Fassis are the most atypical for Morocco:


Arabophones from the region north of Fès :

https://i.imgur.com/AXjKZJZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/vMcxusd.png



Middle Atlassians from the region south of Fès:

https://i.imgur.com/7oOBpPv.png

https://i.imgur.com/2K7vZaJ.png

https://i.imgur.com/K1DAQmK.png


Urban Fassis :

https://i.imgur.com/kpGhRSw.png

https://i.imgur.com/sipabg9.png

https://i.imgur.com/qcWURP8.png

https://i.imgur.com/TXcSOW2.png



Moriscos:
These originally spread all over the country especially the north, but the latest moriscos (post 1600), migrated mainly to Fès, Rabat, Tetouan and Chefchaouen, the first was a big city and they didn't had a strong impact in its demographics, the case of Rabat are different, Rabat was basically a large fort, near the city of Salé, who was inhabited by urban Moroccans, and once arrived to Morocco some Moriscos asked to settle in Rabat, where they mixed with people from Salé, but they kept a clear "Morisco" identity, Spanish was spoken as first language until the 19 century.
Tetouan is kinda similar, the only difference is that Tetuan don't have a large city, and therefore the Moroccan indigenous part of Tetouani people comes from the countryside (similar to Arabophone from NW Morocco).

Here 2 Tetouanis with Morisco heritage :

https://i.imgur.com/vskqYND.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/krAO3mn.jpg


Rbati with Morisco heritage:

https://i.imgur.com/28GbZbG.jpg


People here are mainly Berber with some Arab ancestry (usually less than 5% but can reach 13% in some rare cases).

Arabophone from Western Morocco:

https://i.imgur.com/jHVeXQH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WNYR2fp.jpg

Amhas
11-24-2019, 12:45 AM
Moroccan Jews:

Like the Moriscos and Fassi, they are clearly outlier, these are mainly of Sephardi heritage:

https://i.imgur.com/iXB23oR.png

https://i.imgur.com/uOuWQO9.png

https://i.imgur.com/hzhEAjV.png

https://i.imgur.com/YhQfwFO.png

https://i.imgur.com/Lf4Jteh.png



Southwestern Berbers:
These score the highest % of North African in Ftdna, I post once, since a dozen have 100% NA, some Sahrawis can reach 100% NA in FTDNA, and some Mauritanian beidhane too.


https://i.imgur.com/8ocTPbC.jpg


( NB: all of them gave the autorisation to publish their results.)

passenger
11-24-2019, 02:09 AM
Moroccan Jews:

Like the Moriscos and Fassi, they are clearly outlier, these are mainly of Sephardi heritage:

https://i.imgur.com/iXB23oR.png

https://i.imgur.com/uOuWQO9.png

https://i.imgur.com/hzhEAjV.png

https://i.imgur.com/YhQfwFO.png

https://i.imgur.com/Lf4Jteh.png



Southwestern Berbers:
These score the highest % of North African in Ftdna, I post once, since a dozen have 100% NA, some Sahrawis can reach 100% NA in FTDNA, and some Mauritanian beidhane too.


https://i.imgur.com/8ocTPbC.jpg


( NB: all of them gave the autorisation to publish their results.)

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I haven't seen a whole lot of FTDNA results for Sephardic Jews, or North Africans in general, for that matter. I'm wondering how representative these results are for Moroccan Jews. The Sephardic percentages seem low in comparison to MyHeritage, but that could easily be because the MH reference populations are specifically North African, whereas FTDNA seemingly uses Eastern Sephardim.

It's particularly interesting that the Urban Fassis seem to have such mixed backgrounds in comparison with others from the same region.

Amhas
11-24-2019, 09:57 AM
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I haven't seen a whole lot of FTDNA results for Sephardic Jews, or North Africans in general, for that matter. I'm wondering how representative these results are for Moroccan Jews. The Sephardic percentages seem low in comparison to MyHeritage, but that could easily be because the MH reference populations are specifically North African, whereas FTDNA seemingly uses Eastern Sephardim.

It's particularly interesting that the Urban Fassis seem to have such mixed backgrounds in comparison with others from the same region.


I would say that they are quite representative, these people have 4 Moroccan born g-parents, I saw one with up to 20% North African but I can't post it.

Myheritage doesn't look very accurate for North Africans, almost everyone scores +15% Iberian, and their jewish database is very large, and that make every non jewish score some kind of jewish.

I was very surprised by Urban Fassis too, I knew that according to historical events they have recent Iberian and jewish ancestry (middle ages) but I was thinking that it was exaggerated by authors and yet their results confirm this, there are even some fassi families named Cohen lol.

passenger
11-24-2019, 03:55 PM
I would say that they are quite representative, these people have 4 Moroccan born g-parents, I saw one with up to 20% North African but I can't post it.

Myheritage doesn't look very accurate for North Africans, almost everyone scores +15% Iberian, and their jewish database is very large, and that make every non jewish score some kind of jewish.

I was very surprised by Urban Fassis too, I knew that according to historical events they have recent Iberian and jewish ancestry (middle ages) but I was thinking that it was exaggerated by authors and yet their results confirm this, there are even some fassi families named Cohen lol.

Are these all examples from your DNA matches?

Amhas
11-24-2019, 04:46 PM
Are these all examples from your DNA matches?

Some are my matches, and some are my friends matches.

Amhas
11-25-2019, 09:10 PM
Unpublished groups:

Eastern Moroccans:

Arabophones score a slightly higher Arabian influence than the other groups.

Berbers score similar to Middle Atlas Berbers and the Beni Snous Berbers from Algeria.


Southern eastern Morocco:

Berberophones:

2 groups speak Berber, one is pred. Berber and score high North African, similar to Southwestern Berbers.
and the second is SSA shifted, overall this group shows SSA varying from 30% to 60%, with some rare cases reaching 70%.

Arabophones:

Basically the same as Berberophones, one group is SSA shifted, and the second is Berber with an arabian influence, this varies from a group to another, some groups can score high High north african, and some tribes can reach up to 30% Arabian and are outlier to Morocco, and usually look shifted towards the algero-tunisian-libyan arabs.

Cascio
02-06-2020, 11:56 AM
Great work, Amhas, but how do we account for the Southeast European reading in the Rif and Middle Atlas samples?

Amhas
02-08-2020, 01:27 AM
Great work, Amhas, but how do we account for the Southeast European reading in the Rif and Middle Atlas samples?

Neolithic I guess, KEB (Moroccan Late neolithic) related .

alves971997
03-19-2020, 12:02 PM
Very interesting , I wonder what are the haplogroup of Moriscos and Fassi's :)

Amhas
03-20-2020, 01:27 PM
Very interesting , I wonder what are the haplogroup of Moriscos and Fassi's :)

R1b and j2

Cascio
03-20-2020, 02:17 PM
R1b and j2

Are there any details of percentages of R1b and J2, and subclades?

Are the Morisco samples closer to Spain or Morocco?

Amhas
03-20-2020, 02:58 PM
Are there any details of percentages of R1b and J2, and subclades?

Are the Morisco samples closer to Spain or Morocco?

They have typical iberian clades, we don't have enough data to have conclusive percentages.

Autosomal wise they are somehow 40-50% Iberian and 50-60% Moroccan.

Cascio
03-20-2020, 08:11 PM
They have typical iberian clades, we don't have enough data to have conclusive percentages.

Autosomal wise they are somehow 40-50% Iberian and 50-60% Moroccan.

What is your particular background in Morocco?

Amhas
03-20-2020, 11:40 PM
What is your particular background in Morocco?

I'm from Western Morocco, my origins are 50km south of casablanca.

Cascio
03-21-2020, 08:27 AM
Are you a Shluh or Middle Atlas Berber or an Arabophone?

I've been to Casablanca just for a day about ten years ago.

It's a relatively westernised city compared to places like Marrakesh.

Amhas
03-22-2020, 12:57 PM
Are you a Shluh or Middle Atlas Berber or an Arabophone?

I've been to Casablanca just for a day about ten years ago.

It's a relatively westernised city compared to places like Marrakesh.

Arabophone.

Yes, Casablanca is much more westernized and less touristic.

Ibericus
04-25-2020, 10:27 PM
R1b and j2

Very interesting thread. I am Spanish and I am E-Z009, which is quite common in North Africa. Do you know if it's related to any particular ethnic group in Morocco?

Johnny ola
04-25-2020, 10:59 PM
Νice results.Welcome!!!

Amhas
04-26-2020, 01:00 PM
Very interesting thread. I am Spanish and I am E-Z009, which is quite common in North Africa. Do you know if it's related to any particular ethnic group in Morocco?

Z5009 is the subclade of m81 with the highest recurrence in Morocco, from the data we have (Big y and tests), i would say that z5009 is linked to Masmouda & Sanhaja, there is one study about M183 subclades, but the sample is very weak, and after concreting several FTDNA admins (Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia & M81), they told me that the percentages aren't really accurate especially for Tunisia.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321195015/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Distribution-of-E-M183-subclades-among-North-Africa-the-Near-East-and-the-Iberian.png

Itrane2000
07-15-2020, 08:08 AM
Unpublished groups:

Eastern Moroccans:

Arabophones score a slightly higher Arabian influence than the other groups.

Berbers score similar to Middle Atlas Berbers and the Beni Snous Berbers from Algeria.



I am from east Morocco, I am very interested if you can publish.

maroco
09-18-2020, 05:15 PM
This is very misleading you are cherry picking results. I have a very high Arabian component and I’m Moroccan

Itrane2000
09-21-2020, 05:08 PM
This is very misleading you are cherry picking results. I have a very high Arabian component and I’m Moroccan

please could you make a screenshot of your results ?

eclipser
09-22-2020, 11:00 AM
he is just a wannabe arab or troll...anyway even though he has high arabian component it s either recent or just an atypical result for moroccans

maroco
09-23-2020, 07:27 PM
My results

Itrane2000
09-25-2020, 02:24 PM
Hello Maroco,
sorry but we can't see your results. If you want to insert an image please see how to do.39818

Amhas
09-27-2020, 02:03 PM
This is very misleading you are cherry picking results. I have a very high Arabian component and I’m Moroccan

Congrats, you are what we call an outlier.

maroco
09-27-2020, 08:41 PM
Congrats, you are what we call an outlier.
Yes, I’m the biggest outlier of them all very strange results for a Moroccan I must be a surprise for you after all your cherry picked results

maroco
09-27-2020, 08:46 PM
I am from east Morocco, I am very interested if you can publish.

I’ll post two Berbers from east Morocco who are high Levantine
39881

Here is some with little to no Levantine input, shocking diverse results in Morocco no way
39882

Amhas
09-28-2020, 12:58 PM
I’ll post two Berbers from east Morocco who are high Levantine
39881

Here is some with little to no Levantine input, shocking diverse results in Morocco no way
39882

You are using G25, while the results i posted are from FTDNA, how do you expect them to be identical?
Second thing is the proxies you are using for your G25, with good proxies, Moroccans usually score few or any levantine, while some score some arabian.

Bar
09-29-2020, 09:41 AM
Both my parents are berberophone moroccans, my ftdna results are more or less what I expected (predominantly north african with minor iberian/sephardic).

https://i.imgur.com/CRxaQuN.jpg

However when I transferred my raw data to myheritage, the estimated north african component appeared to have dropped. Any idea what could be causing the disparity?

https://i.imgur.com/SLpvK4P.jpg

DNAland gave me a lower estimate as well;
https://i.imgur.com/1LmtGT9.jpg

Itrane2000
10-01-2020, 08:20 PM
their reference populations are not the same. If you want to have an accurate idea, you should get your global25 from Eurogene.

Bar
10-02-2020, 03:01 PM
their reference populations are not the same. If you want to have an accurate idea, you should get your global25 from Eurogene.

I was actually contemplating purchasing an ancestrydna kit since they have the largest reference dataset, why do think g25 is better?

CyrylBojarski
10-02-2020, 03:08 PM
I was actually contemplating purchasing an ancestrydna kit since they have the largest reference dataset, why do think g25 is better?

Are you part Sephardi, part Morrocan? AncestryDNA is not very good with Sephardim. On Reddit I saw quarter Spanish Sephardim scoring 0% Western Asian or Italian

Bar
10-03-2020, 04:17 PM
Are you part Sephardi, part Morrocan? AncestryDNA is not very good with Sephardim. On Reddit I saw quarter Spanish Sephardim scoring 0% Western Asian or Italian

No I'm fully moroccan/berber. Re sephardim; isn't that because they have their own reference cluster, hence those components that make up their genepool are obscured in the results?

passenger
10-03-2020, 04:30 PM
No I'm fully moroccan/berber. Re sephardim; isn't that because they have their own reference cluster, hence those components that make up their genepool are obscured in the results?

That shouldn't be the case, since AncestryDNA doesn't have a specific Sephardic category, so it gets broken down into components. They seem to be doing a pretty bad job though, especially with results for people of partial Sephardic ancestry.

I don't know exactly what "Spanish Sephardic" means though. Are we talking about someone who is partly descended from conversos who never left Spain, but who self-identifies as part Sephardic? Or someone with Sephardic ancestors who moved to Spain from somewhere else in the Mediterranean diaspora? This could make a big difference.

CyrylBojarski
10-03-2020, 04:44 PM
That shouldn't be the case, since AncestryDNA doesn't have a specific Sephardic category, so it gets broken down into components. They seem to be doing a pretty bad job though, especially with results for people of partial Sephardic ancestry.

I don't know exactly what "Spanish Sephardic" means though. Are we talking about someone who is partly descended from conversos who never left Spain, but who self-identifies as part Sephardic? Or someone with Sephardic ancestors who moved to Spain from somewhere else in the Mediterranean diaspora? This could make a big difference.

That person did not tell it. He says he just has known Sephardic ancestry, his results are mostly Iberian with some NW Euro. I think his Sephardic ancestors never left Spain, I do not remember

Bar
10-05-2020, 09:25 PM
their reference populations are not the same. If you want to have an accurate idea, you should get your global25 from Eurogene.

I suspect myheritage uses south moroccans as their reference for north africa, from what I've seen so far berbers from the souss valley score close to 100%. Anyway I'd have to mail davidski to get my g25 coordinates, right?

passenger
10-05-2020, 10:26 PM
Anyway I'd have to mail davidski to get my g25 coordinates, right?

Right. https://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html

bdkag
01-25-2021, 02:07 PM
Hello Amhas. Thank you for your post. Here are my results as a full moroccan. I let you guess from which part I'm from :) :

42845

bdkag
01-25-2021, 08:59 PM
R1b and j2

For me it's T-CTS2214.

Nabel
01-27-2021, 05:15 PM
Hello Amhas. Thank you for your post. Here are my results as a full moroccan. I let you guess from which part I'm from :) :

42845
That s very easy since you have very low north african as full moroccan and high arabs means you recently came to morocco through algeria... so your north african might not be moroccan at all.your high italian can indicates jewish background or romanised berbers from north africa... you probably from fes or casablanca...anyway ftdna is trash

bdkag
01-28-2021, 10:39 AM
That s very easy since you have very low north african as full moroccan and high arabs means you recently came to morocco through algeria... so your north african might not be moroccan at all.your high italian can indicates jewish background or romanised berbers from north africa... you probably from fes or casablanca...anyway ftdna is trash

From Fès yes. Why FTDNA is trash ?

Amhas
01-28-2021, 11:28 AM
That s very easy since you have very low north african as full moroccan and high arabs means you recently came to morocco through algeria... so your north african might not be moroccan at all.your high italian can indicates jewish background or romanised berbers from north africa... you probably from fes or casablanca...anyway ftdna is trash



Not really.

Fassi are an endogamous population that is composed of a mix of local Moroccan berbers(mainly middle atlasian and riffian like), andalusian elements and levantine elements (old jewish). The fassi genetic stock appeared much before the arrival of the arabs (banu hilal and maaqil). and most importantly the Fassi genetic stock is different from the "average" moroccan "arabic" block.
His results are typical of Fès. And native of Casablanca or suburbs have a different profile (I'm from the region by the way).

And even the moroccan "Arabs" when analyzed deeply their north african is mainly Moroccan berber like rather than Algerian or Tunisian berber like, but they do have a small % of algerian/tunisian north-african elements. The arabic immigration into Morocco was very limited and didn't changed the genetic pool, it just slightly shifted some regions toward east. while in Algeria and Tunisia and Libya, the arabic elements were much more numerous and they managed to keep a high level of arabic genome. (check last genetic study about tunisian arabs and berbers).

By the way FTDNA is quite accurate but they last update do suck.but still G25 is the most accurate.

Amhas
01-31-2021, 02:17 PM
I usually dont argue with moroccan arab because he wannabe 100% racially arab and 100% natif from morocco specially you when you said fassi are endogamous then how you explain the mixture dna of fassi which mixture they kept?! dude stop please otherwise the whole world is endogamous in last 100 years.

I usually don't argue with people who spread fake news. You didn't even managed to read my full answer and just replied.

YES in the last 100 years the majority of Moroccans were endogamous, and when I said Fassi were endogamous that means that they had few mixing with their neighbours (Fassi Jews and Non Fassi muslims). there were few mixing but overall if you take 100 fassi from the 11th century and compare them with 100 fassis from the 20th century, you will have very similar results, this is not the case of majority of other North African cities (Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli had an arabian then ottoman and european renegades). Fassi in the 11 century were a mix of North African berbers (mainly from neighboring tribes), Andalusians and Jewish conversos (the city had a minor immigration from Tunisia but it was too small to shape the city's genetic pool, just like the city have received immigrants from Algerian in early 19th when the french colonized algeria, but this algerian community was too small to change the genetic pool).

My point is fassi just like moroccan jews are a genetic isolate in the Moroccan context.
Second point there is no 100% Arabic native to Morocco, you won't even find a Moroccan who scores 50% Arabian let alone 100%.




historically arabs was mercenaries under ottoman banner, that s how they came en masse in north africa and repopulate some area in libya and algeria but didnt affect morocco until the fall of saadien empire and then li swa o li mayswach start coming to morocco as migrant or invader etc etc ..these new comers are mainly arabised berbers(you can call them whatever you want) from outside of morocco.

some point are true some aren't, indeed Morocco didn't received a strong arabic immigration like algeria or tunisia, but they were not only mercenary. and the major arabic tribes who entered morocco were indeed mercenaries like Khlout, and they entered before the ottoman era.


nowdays in morocco we have two types of arabs: arabised moroccan but gentically still moroccan natif which is only jbala to a lesser extant north moroccan and arabised berbers outside of morocco heavily mixed with SSA like gharbawa , doukkala , chawia and sahara.

That's wrong you are mixing linguistics with genetics. linguistically speaking yes there are 2 blocks, as you mentioned them, but genetically this is wrong. Chaouia score more north african in 23andme, FTDna and G25 than Jbala and Riffian, which means that chaouia are just native Moroccan berbers (similar to middle atlas) with a small arabic contribution.
The SSA thing is wrong because you can't compare SSA level of Saharaoui with the others. SSA increase from south to North. except in the isolated zones in the south.


the same goes for jewish there is no old jewish in morocco it s recent and it dates from sepharadic "exodus" out of spain they got berberised because there was jewish among natifs moroccan berber converted.

Wrong, jews are not native, both are "foreigners", the old berberophone community and the new arabophone and hispanophone sephardic community.



the natif morocco is not mixed souss middle atlas riffian and north moroccan, the other moroccan arabs are indeed mixed even though they kept a north african profil please dont take it personally this my understanding of moroccan genetic admixture.

Wrong, you can't proof that moroccan arabs have a mixed profile, their genetic profil is mainly similar to middle atlas berbers with a small eastern shift (due to oriental north africans and arabians).


example E-v65 haplogroup in morocco came with arabised berbers from libya.

Wrong.

maroco
01-31-2021, 03:57 PM
I usually dont argue with moroccan arab because he wannabe 100% racially arab and 100% natif from morocco specially you when you said fassi are endogamous then how you explain the mixture dna of fassi which mixture they kept?! dude stop please otherwise the whole world is endogamous in last 100 years.

historically arabs was mercenaries under ottoman banner, that s how they came en masse in north africa and repopulate some area in libya and algeria but didnt affect morocco until the fall of saadien empire and then li swa o li mayswach start coming to morocco as migrant or invader etc etc ..these new comers are mainly arabised berbers(you can call them whatever you want) from outside of morocco.

nowdays in morocco we have two types of arabs: arabised moroccan but gentically still moroccan natif which is only jbala to a lesser extant north moroccan and arabised berbers outside of morocco heavily mixed with SSA like gharbawa , doukkala , chawia and sahara.

the same goes for jewish there is no old jewish in morocco it s recent and it dates from sepharadic "exodus" out of spain they got berberised because there was jewish among natifs moroccan berber converted.

the natif morocco is not mixed souss middle atlas riffian and north moroccan, the other moroccan arabs are indeed mixed even though they kept a north african profil please dont take it personally this my understanding of moroccan genetic admixture.

example E-v65 haplogroup in morocco came with arabised berbers from libya.

PS: please keep in mind we discuss ideas with no offense taken and we all want the truth even if it hurts ;).
PS2 : ftdna is trash complete trash no location also grouping north africa with egypt ..inept and low company.

Who said we want to be 100 percent Arabian. Arab is more cultural then it is an ethnicity anyone can be an Arab, that said there is still people who have a large amount of heritage from Arabia and hold parental haplogroups from Arabia.

bdkag
04-29-2021, 08:48 AM
Hi,

Here are some new results from FDTNA, full moroccan fassi from andalusian descent on one side and arabian descent on the other. Paternal haplogroup is T-CTS2214 and the maternal one is HV0.

https://imgur.com/a/rac8bRR

Cabaon
04-29-2021, 11:33 AM
Hi,

Here are some new results from FDTNA, full moroccan fassi from andalusian descent on one side and arabian descent on the other. Paternal haplogroup is T-CTS2214 and the maternal one is HV0.

https://imgur.com/a/rac8bRR

first time I see such kind of result for a moroccan interesting

bdkag
04-29-2021, 09:03 PM
first time I see such kind of result for a moroccan interesting

Those are pretty common amongst fassi I think.