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View Full Version : Blame it on the Rain: Paleohydrologic considerations for Shaping African Substructure



Angoliga
11-24-2019, 08:05 AM
Blame it on the Rain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI5IA8assfk) :

Plausible Hydrologic effects of the Mousterian Pluvial (~50-30 kybp) Mp and Neolithic Subpluvial (~12-5 kybp) NSp on African Genetic Substructure



https://i.imgur.com/goQJarx.png

*This modern topographic map can be used to infer some of the ancient major hydrologic effects during the Mp & NSp -- more academic visuals are of course welcome*
This map is by no means a complete depiction of ancient pluvial periods -- e.g. lack of former tributaries now Wadis/Ephermal rivers (Yellow-Nile/Wadi-Howar), ancient lakes/rivers (Lake Megafezzan, Lake Ptolemy, Lake Mega Chad, Tamanrasset river.. among others)



This thread is intended to freely share, dismiss and validate plausible hydrologic effects on African populations from the last Green-Sahara phases, also commonly known as the Mousterian Pluvial, and the Neolithic Subpluvial/Aqualithic/Holocene Wet-phase.

Given the current paucity of both ancient & modern African samples, all considerations are welcome, as long as they're shared with academic reference or some form of public/openly verifiable data (Yfull, G25, ADMIXTURE, formal-stats etc.. )






Below are a few papers, feel free to share more sources you find informative -- this thread can also be used as a deposit for related-references:

Pastoralism may have delayed the end of the green Sahara (Brierley, 2018 (https://co2coalition.org/2018/10/01/pastoralism-may-have-delayed-the-end-of-the-green-sahara/))

The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages (d'Atanasio, 2018 (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5))

Rainfall regimes of the Green Sahara (Tierney, 2017 (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/1/e1601503.full))

African humid periods triggered the reactivation of a large river system in Western Sahara (Skonieczny, 2016 (https://hal-univ-perp.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01250419/document))

Gradual aridification of the Sahara during the last 11,000 years revealed by plant wax δD analyses of Lake Yoa (Chad) (Rethemeyer, 2014 (https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2014EGUGA..1612391R/abstract))

The demographic response to Holocene climate change in the Sahara (Manning, 2014 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379114002728))

Dynamics of Green Sahara Periods and Their Role in Hominin Evolution (Larrasoaña, 2013 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0076514))

Gobero: The No-Return Frontier. Archaeology and Landscape at the Saharo-Sahelian Borderland. (A.A. Garcea, 2013 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327511376_Gobero_the_secular_and_sacred_place))

Green Sahara: African Humid Periods Paced by Earth's Orbital Changes (B. deMenocalet al., 2012 (https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/green-sahara-african-humid-periods-paced-by-82884405/))

Ancient watercourses and biogeography of the Sahara explain the peopling of the desert (A. Drake, 2011 (https://www.pnas.org/content/108/2/458))

Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara: Motor of Africa's Evolution (Kooper, 2006 (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/313/5788/803/tab-figures-data))

The Wavy Line and the Dotted Wavy Line Pottery in the Prehistory of the Central Nile and the Sahara-Sahel Belt (AS Mohammed-Ali, 2003 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251269097_The_Wavy_Line_and_the_Dotted_Wavy_Line_P ottery_in_the_Prehistory_of_the_Central_Nile_and_t he_Sahara-Sahel_Belt))





How Geography Turned the Sahara Green (Atlas Pro, 2019) - fun and informative clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM_QS984JKI&t=664s) on the cyclical cause of Green-Sahara phases

Lakeside Subsistence & Climate Change - Le Collège de France - Holocene North African Climate 16 May 2014 - Lecture clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GSlgaNdd7c) from Paul Sereno; lead archaeologist of the Gobero site

Angoliga
11-25-2019, 07:37 AM
Here's a few considerations that might be worth probing; they can be posed as questions:


*Admittedly, most of these are self-regarding/related observations of my own ancestry -- perspectives from other viewpoints are encouraged.





As precipitation intensified in the early NSp, did mass inundation of the Middle-Nile Valley (North-Sudan) gradually create an East/West divide of Ancestral East-African (http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-east-african-cluster.html) pops ?



"The Holocene terraces and former channels of the main Nile have ages of 11 kyr, 6.5–5.0 kyr and 4.8–4.0 kyr, after which there was a general decline in flood discharge. The now arid main Nile valley in northern Sudan was significantly wetter during the early to middle Holocene, with a lake up to 450 km2 in area, fed by an overflow channel from the early Holocene Nile between 9.5 kyr and 7.5 kyr. "

*Newly stated reference* Late Quaternary floods and droughts in the Nile valley, Sudan: new evidence from optically stimulated luminescence and AMS radiocarbon dating (Williams, 2010 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277379110000508) )


"...With the abrupt arrival of monsoon rains at 8,500 B.C.E., the hyper-arid desert was replaced by savannah-like environments swiftly used by prehistoric settlers. During the early Holocene humid optimum, the southern Sahara and the Nile valley apparently were too moist and hazardous for appreciable human occupation. " (Kuper, 2006)


Though of course not by the same magnitude, here's a visual illustration of recent flooding which still occasionally occurs in modern North-Sudan: Aljazeera: The Nile river has burst its banks in Wadi Ramli in Sudan's Khartoum state (Aug 28, 2019 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqccWK9FUSQ))



Could such barriers between a "Proto-AEA" pop explain the splitting contrast for West-African affinities in "Proto-Nilotic" pops and overt Natufian-like affinities in Erythraean-related pops? -- or is this an oversimplification of modern genetic-profiles with deeper meaning which pre-dates the NSp?

This consideration follows the general consensus of bi-directional migrations of Nilotes between East and West-Central Africa, and presumes "Proto-HOAs" were confined between the Red-Sea and the Nile-Valley to reconcile their lack of West-African affinities.



If we run with this scenario, would these be considered possible regions for the ethnogenesis of "Proto-Nilotic" and "Proto-Horner" populations?


We desperately need more modern and ancient data from Sudan/Egypt.


These considerations are of course "best-guesses" based on inferences and limited data; hence the rabid question-marks:

https://i.imgur.com/y4fuyWQ.png
Original Figure without markings taken from (Kuper, 2006)


The region between Wadi-Halfa and Aswan would be treated here as an "intermediate zone" appropriate for the general Natufian/AEA profile of a hypothesized "Proto-HOA" pop.

*It's worth mentioning, a lot of these regions still haven't been fully excavated, the paper mentions this rather bluntly in the citation below "Reliability of the data base".

E.g. much of what's underneath Lake Nasser is of course unavailable due to post-construction of the Aswan dam.

The Eastern-Desert, encompassing a large region of the "Proto-HOA" region here, might also be heavily under-surveyed.

Though the general consensus is that it wasn't heavily occupied during the early-mid Holocene, there's still a few sites indicated by the paper as "major occupation areas".


Reliability of the data base

"The reconstruction of Holocene climates, environments and prehistoric occupation in a remote region of 2 million km² and under most difficult working conditions inevitably stretches to some extent any data base. The presented evidence which results from more than 50 expeditions and 150 excavations during the past 27 years along the B.O.S. and ACACIA research transects through the eastern Sahara, supplemented by extensive geological field work within the Collaborative Research Center 69 “Geoscientific Problems in Arid Areas” of the Berlin universities (1980-1995) are thought to provide an adequate basis to justify our model even if its statistical error margins can hardly be quantified. "







Using deep-layer G25 runs, the hypothesized inundated Middle-Nile barrier between "Proto"-Nilotes/Horners appears validated by modern Horners lack of affinity for early neolithic North-African ancestry "MAR_EN" (reflective of Tenerian/Kiffian-like admixture?).

This MAR_EN affinity appears to be omnipresent among all Tropical-Africans who historically inhabited regions within and adjacent to the Green-Sahara during the NSp. Geographically-speaking this would be all Tropical-Africa, north of central African rain-forests and in between the Atlantic/Nile-Valley basin:



NiloSaharans:




[1] "distance%=21.2416"

Gumuz

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,67.9
MAR_Iberomaurusian,20.1
MAR_EN,4.9
LAO_Hoabinhian,2.5
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,2.3
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,1.1
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.6
Jarawa,0.3
Malaysia_LN,0.2
Htin_Mal,0.1


[1] "distance%=25.5201"

Luo

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,63.2
MAR_Iberomaurusian,17.6
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,15.4
MAR_EN,3
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.6
VNM_BA_all,0.1
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,0.1
ROU_Iron_Gates_N,0


[1] "distance%=24.71"

Ethiopian_Anuak

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,67
MAR_Iberomaurusian,19.7
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,7.6
MAR_EN,4.5
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,0.8
LAO_Hoabinhian,0.2
Htin_Mal,0.1
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.1


[1] "distance%=25.7217"

Dinka

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,72.5
MAR_Iberomaurusian,20.7
MAR_EN,4.5
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,2
Eskimo_Sireniki,0.1
BRA_Laranjal_6700BP,0.1
PER_Lauricocha_3500BP,0.1


[1] "distance%=23.0629"

UG_CentralSudanic

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,72.3
MAR_Iberomaurusian,16.6
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,7
MAR_EN,3.1
PER_Lauricocha_3500BP,0.4
CHL_LosRieles_5100BP,0.2
USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP,0.2
BRA_Laranjal_6700BP,0.1
PER_Laramate_900BP,0.1





Horners:




[1] "distance%=13.063"

Ethiopian_Wolayta

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,43
MAR_Iberomaurusian,21.7
Levant_Natufian,17.5
EGY_Hellenistic,9.9
EGY_Late_Period,3.3
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,2.5
LAO_Hoabinhian,0.9
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,0.7
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.5


[1] "distance%=11.3349"

Ethiopian_Tigray

Levant_Natufian,45.4
MWI_Fingira_6100BP,30.1
MAR_Iberomaurusian,14.4
IRN_Wezmeh_N,5.4
AFG_Darra_i_kur_low_res,3.4
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,1
MAR_EN,0.3


[1] "distance%=15.1904"

Somali

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,40.4
Levant_Natufian,29.1
MAR_Iberomaurusian,23.6
AFG_Darra_i_kur_low_res,2.7
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,1.9
IRN_Wezmeh_N,1.8
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,0.2
MAR_EN,0.2

LAO_Hoabinhian,0.1







West-Africans:




1] "distance%=31.1751"

Esan_Nigeria

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,67.1
MAR_Iberomaurusian,15.5
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,12.4
MAR_EN,4.1
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.4
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,0.4



[1] "distance%=29.943"

Igbo

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,69.5
MAR_Iberomaurusian,16
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,10.9
MAR_EN,3.3
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,0.3



[1] "distance%=28.0652"

Mende_Sierra_Leone

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,63.7
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,16.3
MAR_Iberomaurusian,15.2
MAR_EN,3.8
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,0.4
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.3
CHN_Tianyuan,0.1
Jarawa,0.1
VNM_BA_all,0.1



[1] "distance%=31.2193"

Yoruba

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,70.6
MAR_Iberomaurusian,15.8
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,8.5
MAR_EN,4.7
BLZ_SakiTzul_7400BP,0.2
CHL_LosRieles_5100BP,0.1
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,0.1



[1] "distance%=28.1667"

Gambian

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,68.7
MAR_Iberomaurusian,19
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,7.3
MAR_EN,4.6
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,0.3



[1] "distance%=28.2958"

Mandenka

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,69.6
MAR_Iberomaurusian,19.6
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,6.4
MAR_EN,4
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,0.2
BLZ_SakiTzul_7400BP,0.1
PER_Laramate_900BP,0.1






Bantu:




[1] "distance%=27.9197"

Kongo

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,61.2
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,20.4
MAR_Iberomaurusian,14.8
MAR_EN,2.6
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.5
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,0.3
LAO_Hoabinhian,0.1
VNM_BA_all,0.1


[1] "distance%=26.3097"

Bantu_Kenya

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,60.5
MAR_Iberomaurusian,17.9
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,17.3
MAR_EN,3.6
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.7



[1] "distance%=21.4296"

Bantu_S.E.

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,57.4
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,30.5
MAR_Iberomaurusian,8.4
MAR_EN,2.8
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.7
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,0.1
PYF_150BP,0.1



[1] "distance%=24.9105"

Bantu_S.W.

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,61.6
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,21.5
MAR_Iberomaurusian,13.4
MAR_EN,2.9
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,0.4
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.2



[1] "distance%=19.3774"

Kikuyu

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,64.4
MAR_Iberomaurusian,23.8
MAR_EN,5.4
IRN_Wezmeh_N,1.4
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,1.3
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,1
IRN_HotuIIIb_Mesolithic,0.8
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,0.5
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.4
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,0.4
IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN,0.2
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.2
AFG_Darra_i_kur_low_res,0.1
EGY_Late_Period,0.1





EHGs:




[1] "distance%=14.4691"

Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,58
MAR_Iberomaurusian,23.7
EGY_Late_Period,6.6
Levant_Natufian,5.1
LAO_Hoabinhian,3.2
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,1.4
EGY_Hellenistic,1
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.4
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,0.2
AFG_Darra_i_kur_low_res,0.1
Malaysia_LN,0.1
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.1
MAR_EN,0.1


[1] "distance%=14.6177"

Ethiopian_Ari_blacksmith

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,59.4
MAR_Iberomaurusian,24.6
EGY_Late_Period,5.9
Levant_Natufian,3.4
LAO_Hoabinhian,2.3
IRN_Wezmeh_N,1.2
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,1.1
EGY_Hellenistic,1
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,0.9
LAO_BA,0.1
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.1


[1] "distance%=12.343"

Hadza

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,66.5
MAR_Iberomaurusian,17.1
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,6.9
RUS_Ust_Ishim,4.4
IRN_HotuIIIb_Mesolithic,1.7
Malaysia_LN,1.2
MAR_EN,0.8
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,0.6
LAO_Hoabinhian,0.4
PER_Lauricocha_3500BP,0.1
BRA_Laranjal_6700BP,0.1
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.1
Thailand_IA,0.1


[1] "distance%=14.4027"

ETH_4500BP

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,66.9
MAR_Iberomaurusian,18.1
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,7.1
LAO_Hoabinhian,3.8
MAR_EN,1.3
RUS_Ust_Ishim,1.2
PER_Lauricocha_3500BP,0.7
BLZ_SakiTzul_7400BP,0.2
MEX_Huichol,0.1
CHL_Yamana_1000BP,0.1
USA_San_Catalina_Island,0.1
CHL_LosRieles_5100BP,0.1
BRA_Laranjal_6700BP,0.1
Malaysia_LN,0.1
IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP,0.1


[1] "distance%=14.2441"

Sandawe

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,66
MAR_Iberomaurusian,22.3
IRN_Wezmeh_N,3.7[/B]
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,2.5
MAR_EN,2.2
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,0.9
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,0.8
EGY_Late_Period,0.7
Anatolia_Kumtepe_N,0.6
IRN_HotuIIIb_Mesolithic,0.1
EGY_Hellenistic,0.1





Ancient Pastoralists:




[1] "distance%=15.0439"

KEN_Pastoral_N

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,40.4
MAR_Iberomaurusian,23.8
Levant_Natufian,19.5
EGY_Late_Period,13.8
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,1
EGY_Hellenistic,0.9
AFG_Darra_i_kur_low_res,0.2
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.2
LAO_Hoabinhian,0.2


[1] "distance%=12.6521"

TZA_Luxmanda_3100BP

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,43
Levant_Natufian,23.4
MAR_Iberomaurusian,19.7
EGY_Late_Period,9.5
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,1.8
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,1.1
EGY_Hellenistic,0.8
LAO_Hoabinhian,0.3
PER_Lauricocha_3500BP,0.2
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.2


[1] "distance%=14.5397"

KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,39.1
Levant_Natufian,24.2
MAR_Iberomaurusian,20.9
EGY_Late_Period,10.1
EGY_Hellenistic,2.2
LAO_Hoabinhian,1.7
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,1.1
RUS_Devils_Gate_low_res,0.4
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.3




Others:




[1] "distance%=2.0847"

EGY_Late_Period

Levant_ISR_MLBA,26.2
Levant_PPNC,22
Levant_ISR_C,16.6
Levant_Natufian,15.9
TKM_Parkhai_MBA,7.1
MAR_Iberomaurusian,5.5
Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res,3.2
GEO_CHG,2.4
Syrian,0.5
MWI_Fingira_6100BP,0.4
Nganassan,0.2


[1] "distance%=13.4873"

San

MWI_Fingira_2500BP,68.9
MWI_Fingira_6100BP,21.6
MAR_Iberomaurusian,3.5
MAR_EN,3
RUS_Ust_Ishim,2.9
IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN,0.1


[1] "distance%=1.3255"

MWI_Hora_9000BP

MWI_Fingira_2500BP,66.5
MWI_Fingira_6100BP,26.7
CZE_N,0.9
Scotland_N_o,0.9
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.6
Koinanbe,0.4
Kosipe,0.4
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.4
IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,0.3
Iberia_Southwest_EN,0.3
IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN,0.2
ITA_Remedello_BA,0.2
Corded_Ware_CZE_o,0.2
UKR_Globular_Amphora,0.2
Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA_o,0.2
WHG,0.2
Iberia_Northeast_CA,0.2
Levant_Natufian,0.1
Kurumba,0.1
IRN_Seh_Gabi_C,0.1
Levant_LBN_MA_NE,0.1
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,0.1
Anatolia_Kumtepe_N,0.1
IRL_MN,0.1
Iberia_Southwest_MLN,0.1
Iberia_Southeast_MLN,0.1
DEU_Baalberge_MN,0.1
HUN_Baden_LCA,0.1
HRV_Vucedol,0.1
MAR_Iberomaurusian,0


[1] "distance%=23.1196"

Biaka

MWI_Fingira_2500BP,74.7
MWI_Fingira_6100BP,20.6
Anatolia_N_Kumtepe_low_res,2
MAR_Iberomaurusian,1.9
MAR_EN,0.7
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.1


[1] "distance%=11.8492"

KEN_LSA

MWI_Fingira_6100BP,63.9
MAR_Iberomaurusian,14.6
MWI_Fingira_2500BP,14.5
LAO_Hoabinhian,4.3
Malaysia_LN,1
RUS_Ust_Ishim,0.5
MAR_EN,0.4
IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP,0.3
Jarawa,0.2
Onge,0.2
IRN_HotuIIIb_Mesolithic,0.1



*These results were taken from previous runs posted on a thread from 07-05-2019 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17561-G25-nMonte-Inferring-ANA-Eurasian-layers-in-SSA-pops&p=579816&viewfull=1#post579816) -- runs may vary on the G25 dataset to-date (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/)*


Instructions on how to run these deep-layer runs:


To observe these results independently with the latest G25 cords, go to the Eurogenes blog here (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html); additional instruction on how to run nMonte can be found on this thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6452-How-to-Use-nMonte).

Once you've downloaded the dataset for unscaled ancients, remove all African samples except the following:

MWI_Fingira_6100BP = ~modern SSA
MWI_Fingira_2500BP = Archaic SSA
MAR_EN = NSp related ANA ancestry
MAR_Iberomaurisian = ANA-related

To avoid more historically recent distortion in these deep-layer-SSA runs, it's preferable to also remove any African-related samples from recent historic periods (i.e. Hellenistic/Late-Period Egyptian along with Roman and Iberian African outliers).

*For ease cropping out Tropical-African samples, filter the PC1 column in ascending order -- it's a little time consuming but worth the analysis.

*All settings should with the R program should be on default*







This example isn't exactly hard-ground evidence but I've considered some form of division in AEA pops to explain lack of detection for L3x2b (sister-mtDNA clade to Mota).
I'll concede, this particular observation was drawn purely out of clear self-interest : ) -- I loathe having to use personal anecdotes but find this all too relevant. The L3x2b subclade is nowhere to be found in any sizable Horner-related survey; zero detection in this HOA dataset with over 1.3k samples (Plaster et al. mtDNA Haplogroups predicted by Passa (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10734-mtDNA-amp-Y-DNA-E-predictions-for-Plaster-et-al-Horn-Africans-by-Passa)).

Though this could easily be attributed to the general lack of high-resolution/hg-specificity in African surveys (*especially for Central-Sudanic/Sahelian Nilo-Saharan speakers), it's lack of detection in the Horn and minor detection further North-West in Algeria and Spain might corroborate with a hypothesized early-NSp West-Central African trajectory of AEAs.

Apart from the West-Nile of Uganda and select South-Sudanese pops in Equatoria, I suspect at least minor detection will be found within and adjacent to Darfur once these regions are thoroughly surveyed.


(Ian Logan: L3x2b mtDNA database (http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/l3x_genbank_sequences.htm) )
(Yfull: L3x2b Mtree (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3x2b/))

ThaYamamoto
03-03-2020, 10:56 PM
Hey Angoliga, any plans to update this thread? I'm particularly fascinated with non-Bantu Niger-Kordofanian ancestry in Bantu and Nilo-Bantu groups, having some oral history passed down to me that hopefully genomic analysis would be able to corroborate (Ugandan Basoga). The Great Lakes malaria paper as well as the Uganda Resource (a poor study imo) presented evidence of recent West-African admixture in GL groups, but the African genetic profile can skew things. Busby et al had some real interesting information specifically for the Luhya but didn't expand on it - even if the sample is Bukusu (too many issues), the Luhya consistently exhibit the Nigeria/Cameroon delta ancestry far more than the other Ken/Tz Bantus as well as Xhosa/Zulu even in the St Helena paper [and in Busby et al, more than Malawi]. Mulindiwa et al had the Soga exhibiting Ivorian like signatures at ~10%, with low FST distance between Soga and Ivorian pops. but the same was not found to be true with the Luhya Bukusu sample.

Outside of Bantu the ever present West-African in Dinka and Dinka-like pops also needs further examination. I'm assuming Lwo/Shilluk groups that migrated into the Great Lakes have the same deep West African affinity? Its clear that phenotypically, the West African signature expresses itself in South Sudanese pops, but when mixed in the Great Lakes (Acholi, Langi, some Jaluo, Luhyas [Bukusu + Maragoli)) the Bantu phenotype almost cancels out the deep West African affinity in the Nilote portion of the genetic profile? That is assuming that the ancestors of West-Nilotic speaking GL pops. had the same degree of deep West African affinity exhibited by the Dinka. Would love to know your thoughts.

edit: Also curious as to your thoughts on Blench's 'Niger-Saharan' proposal and the placement of Mande (Niger-Congo, isolate family, or the earliest diverged NC?).

Angoliga
04-03-2020, 03:16 AM
Hey Angoliga, any plans to update this thread? I'm particularly fascinated with non-Bantu Niger-Kordofanian ancestry in Bantu and Nilo-Bantu groups, having some oral history passed down to me that hopefully genomic analysis would be able to corroborate (Ugandan Basoga).

Hi Yamamoto, thanks for spiking more interest on the topic -- didn't want to saturate the thread, genuinely curious to hear others interpretations
Are you a Musoga? I'm interested to hear the oral history you've been told, please also provide the clan if possible -- I hope I'm not being too forward




The Great Lakes malaria paper as well as the Uganda Resource (a poor study imo) presented evidence of recent West-African admixture in GL groups, but the African genetic profile can skew things. Busby et al had some real interesting information specifically for the Luhya but didn't expand on it - even if the sample is Bukusu (too many issues), the Luhya consistently exhibit the Nigeria/Cameroon delta ancestry far more than the other Ken/Tz Bantus as well as Xhosa/Zulu even in the St Helena paper [and in Busby et al, more than Malawi]. Mulindiwa et al had the Soga exhibiting Ivorian like signatures at ~10%, with low FST distance between Soga and Ivorian pops. but the same was not found to be true with the Luhya Bukusu sample.

Perhaps the variation speaks to the theory of multiple (at-least 2 major) West-African/Bantu expansions into Central/East/Southern Africa? I think folks delved into this topic in more detail on the Helena paper thread



Outside of Bantu the ever present West-African in Dinka and Dinka-like pops also needs further examination. I'm assuming Lwo/Shilluk groups that migrated into the Great Lakes have the same deep West African affinity?

IMO that would seem logical based on the limited data atm



Its clear that phenotypically, the West African signature expresses itself in South Sudanese pops, but when mixed in the Great Lakes (Acholi, Langi, some Jaluo, Luhyas [Bukusu + Maragoli)) the Bantu phenotype almost cancels out the deep West African affinity in the Nilote portion of the genetic profile? That is assuming that the ancestors of West-Nilotic speaking GL pops. had the same degree of deep West African affinity exhibited by the Dinka. Would love to know your thoughts.

Phenotypes are a very dicey topic but from my own observations as a Ugandan, with several Senegalese (Wolof) friends who've commonly mistaken Northern Ugandans as Senegalese, I'd subjectively have to agree with everything you've stated



edit: Also curious as to your thoughts on Blench's 'Niger-Saharan' proposal and the placement of Mande (Niger-Congo, isolate family, or the earliest diverged NC?).

Hard to say, hegemony of the Songhai (Nilo-Saharan speakers) in the Western Sahel might've greatly influenced linguistic elements of Mande to warrant their inclusion.

Regarding linguistics though, I'm unfortunately quite null -- there's other forum members who are quite knowledgeable though, some are actually currently studying within the field... perhaps Agamemnon could comment? -- though I'm not sure if his interest in Africa extends greatly outside of the Afro-Asiatic family

Angoliga
04-03-2020, 03:17 AM
During the height of the NSp (~12-5 kybp), was Lake Mega-Chad a barrier between westerly migrating Ancient East-African (Dinka-like) and predominantly Niger-Delta like West-African pops (Yoruba like /rather than Senegambian)?



https://i.imgur.com/56IdQsE.png



When West-African affinities are divided into A) a more sahelian West-Atlantic variety (Gambian/Malian-like), and B ) a more Tropical-variation (e.g. Yoruba), the West-African affinitiy in Nilotes (~20%) seems to favour the former.

This can be demonstrated using ADMIXTURE (puntDNAL K8 - GEDmatch):

West-African affinities on this calc can be divided into "West_Benue.." and "East_Benue..".

The West_Benue affinity peaks among the afmd "West-Atlantic" West-Africans Mali_Dogon and Mali_Bambaran (89.76, 74%).

For a deeper comparison of this affinity among African pops, you can copy and paste the calc's spreadsheet, then divide the West and East_Benue affinities to produce a ratio.

Finally, you can then rank the ratio in descending order:

https://i.imgur.com/KEykZHM.png

These ratios seem to validate the theory of a predominant "West-Atlantic" affinity in Nilotes since the South-Sudanese and Gumuz are among the highest ranked ratios of West-Atlantic affiliated populations; Mali_Dogon, S_Moroccan, Mali_Bambaran (Mandenka ethnic group).

The stark high-ratio observed among South-Sudanese (44) compared to modern West-Africans might be interpreted as westerly migrating AEA pops absorbing now extinct ancient West-African pops whose profile's lacked the more Tropical West-African affinities observed in Niger-deltans and Guinean-gulf pops (Yoruba-like). Assuming major paleohydologic barriers in West-Central Africa during the NsP. Once the monsoons waned and the NsP ended, these barriers might've been lifted to allow for more fluid interaction between Atlantic (Senegambian-like) and Niger-Delta pops .

*Recall that prior to the NsP, hyper-arid conditions existed along the Sahara/Sahel (worse than the modern era). These post Mousterian-pluvial conditions likely restricted inter-West-African migrations between Atlantic and further southern Niger-Delta/Guinea Gulf pops -- to what extent of course won't be known until we have more data.


Though limited (n), these results seem to agree with the Mali/Senegalese affinities observed on Ancestry:




These are my results on the left, and a close-match also of Central-Sudanic (West-Nile Ugandan) ancestry:

https://i.imgur.com/0joTAXJ.png

*Notice* both of our Malian and Senegalese affinities add up to roughly the same ~20% equivalent.

Here's an interpretation of why the Mali/Senegal affinities might be contrasting despite both being roughly the same ~20%:



"...the alternating Senegal/Mali affinities <20% might be an attempt to find the afmd West-African ancestry in Nilotes.
It would hypothetically be derived from "West-Sudanic" Africans during the early green-sahara period, so these splits between Mali/Senegal could translate an attempt to discern something proto-Senegalese/Malian." previously posted here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7619-My-fellow-Africans-share-your-ancestral-results-from-different-DNA-companies&p=612719&viewfull=1#post612719)

drobbah
04-03-2020, 05:06 AM
How certain are you that the Ancient East Africans originated in Nubia (near the Nile) and not somwhere more Western like the modern Darfur region? I'm only saying this because the Early Kenyan Pastoralist, if we were to subtract Mota's ancestry; we can hypothesize they descended from a population that was roughly 65% Natufian-like and 35% Dinka (AEA proxy).How can a population with predominantly Natufian ancestry exist in the Red Sea hill area if the Nile river basin of Nubia was the heartland of AEA?

Angoliga
04-03-2020, 07:08 AM
How certain are you that the Ancient East Africans originated in Nubia (near the Nile) and not somwhere more Western like the modern Darfur region?

The Sahara penetrated 400km further south during the Last Glacial Maximum and the Terminal Pleistocene (20,000 to 6,500 B.C.E). So the Darfur region is too northerly, it would've likely been part of the larger Eastern-Sahara which was a hyper-arid desert. Human occupation would've then been limited to the Nile-Valley at this time for Ancient-East-African pops, same for Natufian/ANA? pops further North in the Lower Nile-Valley:

https://i.imgur.com/IU42nvT.png



I'm only saying this because the Early Kenyan Pastoralist, if we were to subtract Mota's ancestry; we can hypothesize they descended from a population that was roughly 65% Natufian-like and 35% Dinka (AEA proxy).How can a population with predominantly Natufian ancestry exist in the Red Sea hill area if the Nile river basin of Nubia was the heartland of AEA?

Not quite understanding, I think you're over-lapping time periods with these questions here.

Early Kenyan Pastoralists date to around ~4kya

When referring to the "heartland" of Ancient East-African populations, that would be prior to the Neolithic Subpluvial (~12kybp) -- as we already know, a lot can transpire within adjacent regions over the span of >8k years to alter the genetic profile of indigenous populations -- in this case: new food-economies and paleohydrologic factors seemed to have played a major role

ThaYamamoto
04-03-2020, 06:03 PM
Hi Yamamoto, thanks for spiking more interest on the topic -- didn't want to saturate the thread, genuinely curious to hear others interpretations
Are you a Musoga? I'm interested to hear the oral history you've been told, please also provide the clan if possible -- I hope I'm not being too forward




Perhaps the variation speaks to the theory of multiple (at-least 2 major) West-African/Bantu expansions into Central/East/Southern Africa? I think folks delved into this topic in more detail on the Helena paper thread



IMO that would seem logical based on the limited data atm



Phenotypes are a very dicey topic but from my own observations as a Ugandan, with several Senegalese (Wolof) friends who've commonly mistaken Northern Ugandans as Senegalese, I'd subjectively have to agree with everything you've stated



Hard to say, hegemony of the Songhai (Nilo-Saharan speakers) in the Western Sahel might've greatly influenced linguistic elements of Mande to warrant their inclusion.

Regarding linguistics though, I'm unfortunately quite null -- there's other forum members who are quite knowledgeable though, some are actually currently studying within the field... perhaps Agamemnon could comment? -- though I'm not sure if his interest in Africa extends greatly outside of the Afro-Asiatic family

Appreciate the response, I have Basoga ancestry but I'll PM you regarding alla that - not sure of the clan but I know the maternal surname so maybe you can help me out. Yeah definitely there's been later expansion 'surges', mostly impacting Nyanza as far as I can tell these secondary un-Malawi like Cameroon/Nigerian stream skipped Tanzania and Central Kenya onwards. I get inferences based on phenotype can be sketchy but I'm glad you see it too, I've noticed in this genomic 'foray' so to speak, intuition plays a key role at least for me - so far most studies either confirm or reject things I've intuitively tried to figure out. I spent time in West Kenya [my step grandfather was Luo], Iganga and obviously Kampala, and noticed a wide array of variation...Jaluo in Kisumu and Migori seem heavily Bantu, but out in Siyaya and Homa Bay you wouldn't be able to distinguish them from Dinka/Nuer and even Mande folks. In Iganga, my Soga relatives were probably the most West-African shifted I'd seen [not Mande tho, more Windward Coast-ish] and only a few folks matched the usual Great Lakes Nillo-shifted Bantu look...all anecdotal I know but theres always a story to tell nah mean.

Absence of Horner ancestry in myself or Basoga in the few studies I've seen including them also lends to their uniqueness in the region. My grandmother's mother, a Musoga lady, told her that her own maternal ancestry was West-African cuz she claimed the tribe would raid and trade for wives from West Africa...I wrongly assumed she meant by-way of Congo at the least when I was younger, but now things don't seem so clear. Mtdna variation in Uganda as you know is crazy diverse, and I've seen Bantu, West-Central, and West-West variants for the same maternal clade, I'll post up the study/figure later, but I get African American and Dominican matches on 23andme in keeping with that.

I'm still figuring out the linguistic element too, except for Blench who is basically tha don dada on African linguistics it seem majority of comparative linguists consider Mande a primary branch...I'm thinking the same but Blench makes a good argument...need more samples from Nigeria's South-South though to figure out Ijaw's place in all of this as he considers it to be as early diverged as Mande, but how it made it to the Niger-Delta or survived in isolation...I got no idea. I guess that might be for another thread though, we desperately need more sampling across Africa, particularly Nigeria...tha day Efik/Ibibo/Ekoi/Ejangham samples come out finna be a good day for me.

edit: tha Senegambian shift in your results is crazy wow.

Nebuchadnezzar II
04-03-2020, 09:09 PM
The Sahara penetrated 400km further south during the Last Glacial Maximum and the Terminal Pleistocene (20,000 to 6,500 B.C.E). So the Darfur region is too northerly, it would've likely been part of the larger Eastern-Sahara which was a hyper-arid desert. Human occupation would've then been limited to the Nile-Valley at this time for Ancient-East-African pops, same for Natufian/ANA? pops further North in the Lower Nile-Valley:

https://i.imgur.com/IU42nvT.png

Are you distinguishing AEA from ANA in a purely geographical sense or genetically too? Assuming ANA is not just a statistical abstraction, wouldn't the most parsimonious explanation be that it is basically some variant of an Ancient East African population located in the Upper Nile Valley?

afbarwaaqo
04-04-2020, 09:34 PM
How likely would AEA actually originating in the South Sudan/Western Ethiopia region be?

drobbah
04-04-2020, 10:27 PM
How likely would AEA actually originating in the South Sudan/Eastern Ethiopia region be?

You mean Western Ethiopia right?

Angoliga
04-04-2020, 11:19 PM
Appreciate the response, I have Basoga ancestry but I'll PM you regarding alla that - not sure of the clan but I know the maternal surname so maybe you can help me out. Yeah definitely there's been later expansion 'surges', mostly impacting Nyanza as far as I can tell these secondary un-Malawi like Cameroon/Nigerian stream skipped Tanzania and Central Kenya onwards. I get inferences based on phenotype can be sketchy but I'm glad you see it too, I've noticed in this genomic 'foray' so to speak, intuition plays a key role at least for me - so far most studies either confirm or reject things I've intuitively tried to figure out. I spent time in West Kenya [my step grandfather was Luo], Iganga and obviously Kampala, and noticed a wide array of variation...Jaluo in Kisumu and Migori seem heavily Bantu, but out in Siyaya and Homa Bay you wouldn't be able to distinguish them from Dinka/Nuer and even Mande folks. In Iganga, my Soga relatives were probably the most West-African shifted I'd seen [not Mande tho, more Windward Coast-ish] and only a few folks matched the usual Great Lakes Nillo-shifted Bantu look...all anecdotal I know but theres always a story to tell nah mean.

Absence of Horner ancestry in myself or Basoga in the few studies I've seen including them also lends to their uniqueness in the region. My grandmother's mother, a Musoga lady, told her that her own maternal ancestry was West-African cuz she claimed the tribe would raid and trade for wives from West Africa...I wrongly assumed she meant by-way of Congo at the least when I was younger, but now things don't seem so clear. Mtdna variation in Uganda as you know is crazy diverse, and I've seen Bantu, West-Central, and West-West variants for the same maternal clade, I'll post up the study/figure later, but I get African American and Dominican matches on 23andme in keeping with that.

I'm still figuring out the linguistic element too, except for Blench who is basically tha don dada on African linguistics it seem majority of comparative linguists consider Mande a primary branch...I'm thinking the same but Blench makes a good argument...need more samples from Nigeria's South-South though to figure out Ijaw's place in all of this as he considers it to be as early diverged as Mande, but how it made it to the Niger-Delta or survived in isolation...I got no idea. I guess that might be for another thread though, we desperately need more sampling across Africa, particularly Nigeria...tha day Efik/Ibibo/Ekoi/Ejangham samples come out finna be a good day for me.

edit: tha Senegambian shift in your results is crazy wow.

Interesting insights! - topics definitely worthy of it's own thread

To avoid a further tangent I won't comment heavily.
From other ethnic groups in Uganda, I've heard similar notions of "recent ties" to West-African ethnic groups, notably in Nigeria, I don't believe there's any historical data or hard genetic evidence to back them up -- if you start a separate thread, we can definitely go into this further

Regarding your diasporic matches, feel free to share your findings on this thread: Echoes of the East-African Slave Trade - Distant Diasporic Matches - IBS or IBD? (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6465-Echoes-of-the-East-African-Slave-Trade-Distant-Diasporic-Matches-IBS-or-IBD)

- I'm interested to know more details.





Are you distinguishing AEA from ANA in a purely geographical sense or genetically too?

Both.

Based on remains at Jebel Sahaba (bordering Sudan and Egypt) during the afmd dry periods , there seems to have been a clear distinction between a more "Levantine/European/ANA" and a more Tropical-African population (AEA?).



Assuming ANA is not just a statistical abstraction, wouldn't the most parsimonious explanation be that it is basically some variant of an Ancient East African population located in the Upper Nile Valley?

Not quite.

We're lacking regional genetic-data from this period but from the skeletal-data it's pretty clear we're dealing with two very distinct populations, each presumably dominant on either spectrum of the Nile-Valley -- it's worth noting, extensive intermediate zones appear to have existed, remains of the more Levantine/European/ANA population have even been found in the middle-nile valley some ~200 miles further south of Jebel Sahaba (modern-day Northern Sudan)

I mentioned Natufian/"ANA?" with a question-mark since we're not exactly certain on the genetic composition of these late-Pleistocene lower-valley pops. Though IMHO, ANA as we know it (i.e. Iberomaurusian) probably didn't contribute substantially to ancient Northeastern Africans during this period -- a more basal Levantine source would seem to be a more conservative contender




How likely would AEA actually originating in the South Sudan/Eastern Ethiopia region be?

Not very likely given the general lack of forager-affinities (Mota/KEN_LSA) in nilotic populations like Dinka; groups peaking the highest in AEA-affinities

Brandon S. Pilcher
04-04-2020, 11:50 PM
I mentioned Natufian/"ANA?" with a question-mark since we're not exactly certain on the genetic composition of these late-Pleistocene lower-valley pops. Though IMHO, ANA as we know it (i.e. Iberomaurusian) probably didn't contribute substantially to ancient Northeastern Africans during this period -- a more basal Levantine source would seem to be a more conservative contender
Why would the source for this population necessarily be in the Levant? You characterize them as being Natufian-like, but given that Natufians likely had substantial ancestry (e.g. "Basal Eurasian") from northeastern Africa (http://egyptsearchdetoxed.blogspot.com/2015/01/lets-face-it-basal-eurasian-is-heavily.html), maybe it's more like Natufians are prehistoric Northeast African-like?

Nebuchadnezzar II
04-04-2020, 11:59 PM
Both.

Based on remains at Jebel Sahaba (bordering Sudan and Egypt) during the afmd dry periods , there seems to have been a clear distinction between a more "Levantine/European/ANA" and a more Tropical-African population (AEA?).


Not quite.

We're lacking regional genetic-data from this period but from the skeletal-data it's pretty clear we're dealing with two very distinct populations, each presumably dominant on either spectrum of the Nile-Valley -- it's worth noting, extensive intermediate zones appear to have existed, remains of the more Levantine/European/ANA population have even been found in the middle-nile valley some ~200 miles further south of Jebel Sahaba (modern-day Northern Sudan)

I mentioned Natufian/"ANA?" with a question-mark since we're not exactly certain on the genetic composition of these late-Pleistocene lower-valley pops. Though IMHO, ANA as we know it (i.e. Iberomaurusian) probably didn't contribute substantially to ancient Northeastern Africans during this period -- a more basal Levantine source would seem to be a more conservative contender



Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't ANA meant to be an African component that admixed with a Eurasian one (modelled with Dzudzuana in Lazaridis pre-print)? In which case using Iberomaurusian as a surrogate for ANA obscures the fact that it's really ANA+Levant/Eurasian? Hence the Levantine/European affinities of "ANA" relative to AEA would be due to the former's admixture with a Eurasian source population.

In other words, subtract the Levantine source from Taforalt and you're left with a source of ancestry that is most related to tropical AEA, though still distinct in some way.

Mind you, this is all speculatory barring genetic data from NE Africa as you mention.

Brandon S. Pilcher
04-05-2020, 12:18 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't ANA meant to be an African component that admixed with a Eurasian one (modelled with Dzudzuana in Lazaridis pre-print)? In which case using Iberomaurusian as a surrogate for ANA obscures the fact that it's really ANA+Levant/Eurasian? Hence the Levantine/European affinities of "ANA" relative to AEA would be due to the former's admixture with a Eurasian source population.

In other words, subtract the Levantine source from Taforalt and you're left with a source of ancestry that is most related to tropical AEA, though still distinct in some way.

Mind you, this is all speculatory barring genetic data from NE Africa as you mention.
I believe that Lazaridis modeled Taforalt as ANA + Dzudzuana-like (as in Villabruna-like + "Basal Eurasian") ancestry. If I'm reading this graph (https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26099&d=1537545158) correctly, ANA is intermediate in "Eurasian" affinity between BE and Mota. So it wouldn't necessarily be SSA-like without the Eurasian admixture.

drobbah
04-05-2020, 01:41 AM
In other words, subtract the Levantine source from Taforalt and you're left with a source of ancestry that is most related to tropical AEA, though still distinct in some way.

Mind you, this is all speculatory barring genetic data from NE Africa as you mention.
If that is the case, why don't horner populations/Sudanese who are essentially AEA + Levantine show any affinties with Taforarlt compared to Western African groups? It seems ANA doesn't have much to do with NE Africa or the Nile Valley

ThaYamamoto
04-05-2020, 02:12 AM
Interesting insights! - topics definitely worthy of it's own thread

To avoid a further tangent I won't comment heavily.
From other ethnic groups in Uganda, I've heard similar notions of "recent ties" to West-African ethnic groups, notably in Nigeria, I don't believe there's any historical data or hard genetic evidence to back them up -- if you start a separate thread, we can definitely go into this further

Regarding your diasporic matches, feel free to share your findings on this thread: Echoes of the East-African Slave Trade - Distant Diasporic Matches - IBS or IBD? (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6465-Echoes-of-the-East-African-Slave-Trade-Distant-Diasporic-Matches-IBS-or-IBD)

- I'm interested to know more details.


Yeah I'll definitely start a new thread, I've been trynna research this for a long time so its dope to finally have found someone with so much knowledge on the region.

afbarwaaqo
04-05-2020, 04:06 AM
You mean Western Ethiopia right?
Yeah my mistake on that error lol

Nebuchadnezzar II
04-05-2020, 11:28 AM
If that is the case, why don't horner populations/Sudanese who are essentially AEA + Levantine show any affinties with Taforarlt compared to Western African groups? It seems ANA doesn't have much to do with NE Africa or the Nile Valley

You're right. Hence why I say they have to still be distinct in some way. Perhaps through drift or AEA-related groups having more ghost modern/basal human and/or Pygmy-related admixture. I think my priors weigh heavy on E-M35 being related to something ANA-related and therefore geographically bound to NE Africa which I guess unreasonably discounts the possibility of a NW African-originating ANA.

The Saite
04-05-2020, 12:02 PM
It's Very likely that ANA Originated somewhere in Northeast Africa too , Then started spreading around (~30K ybp) or maybe quite more recent or Early .
However it would have had been already heavily diluted among These proposed Lower Nile Valley inhabitants That were felt in times of Jebel Sahaba (the non tropical group) , Since Current Egyptians and East Africans lacks anything Taforalt_Like ; But Rather Rich in Natufian_Like .

Nebro
04-05-2020, 01:52 PM
The Ancient east africans descend from the North african Capasian Pastoralists ..ancestry associated with Pastoralism and neolithic Levantinese domesticates.

Proto-Nilotes were probably those sudanese Mesolithic hunter-gatherer-fishers ..who carried A1b/L lineages.
when the Pastoralists migrated from Northern africa they were already 100% Levantinese....they mixed with the fishers and probably became 70% Natufian Levantinese / 30% Dinka-like..
btw its (not Taforalt maghreb)
its not Taforalt who brought the levantinese domesticates..taforalt represent earlier back-migration specific to the Maghreb.

Nebuchadnezzar II
04-05-2020, 02:45 PM
It's Very likely that ANA Originated somewhere in Northeast Africa too around (~30K ybp) or maybe quite more recent or Early .
However it would have had been already heavily diluted among These Lower Nile Valley inhabitants That were felt in times of Jebel Sahaba , Since Current Egyptians and East Africans lacks anything Taforalt_Like ; But Rather Rich in Natufian_Like .

Looking at a map of the geographic distance between NE and NW Africa exposes another flawed assumption, I think. Consider the approximate geographical distance between WHG/Villabruna and EHG/Samara is roughly 1000 km smaller than the distance between a place like Luxor and the Taforalt cave. Knowing the relevant populations were foragers & hunter-gatherers combined with this fact sets huge limitations on our ability to extrapolate the situation in Egypt/Sudan from remains in Morocco.

The Saite
04-05-2020, 04:50 PM
Looking at a map of the geographic distance between NE and NW Africa exposes another flawed assumption, I think. Consider the approximate geographical distance between WHG/Villabruna and EHG/Samara is roughly 1000 km smaller than the distance between a place like Luxor and the Taforalt cave. Knowing the relevant populations were foragers & hunter-gatherers combined with this fact sets huge limitations on our ability to extrapolate the situation in Egypt/Sudan from remains in Morocco.

Well , we already have Evidences of connections between West North Africa and the Levant despite the Distances you recorded.
The fact that both Mesolithic sites consisted of ANA , BE and Villlabruna_Like with different Percentages , In addition of MT-DNA Studies Usually appointing U6 lineages as coming from a South_West Asian Source sometime between (30k ~ 25K) .
Worth to note that Dzudzuana (26K ybp remains) itself is enjoying U6 , of Which existence is Further Strengthening an (East to West) possibility of diffusion between the area's populations.

Nebuchadnezzar II
04-05-2020, 06:44 PM
Well , we already have Evidences of connection between West North Africa and the Levant despite the Distances you recorded.
The fact that both Mesolithic sites consisted of ANA , BE and Villlabruna_Like with different Percentages , In addition of MT-DNA Studies Usually appointing U6 lineages as coming from a West_Asian Source sometime between (30k ~ 25K) .
Dzudzuana (26K ybp remains) already carried U6 results , That is Further Strengthening an (East to West) possibility of diffusion .

Sure, I don't think it's deniable that Eurasian ancestry in some form spread from East to West but we know little more about the source of this ancestry (Dzudzuana is used as a proxy in Lazaridis model but most likely not the actual source).

The question is one of how well can we infer the genetic background of Paleolithic Northeast Africans from a relative in the Northwest corner given there is bound to be a degree of genetic structure that differentiates the two due to drift incurred via distance and societal structure (hunter-gatherers/foragers).

ThaYamamoto
04-05-2020, 08:36 PM
Just to interject, but what actually is Basal Eurasian? Its a term thrown around a lot, even though I believe its actually hypothetical? In a reality where it exists, is Basal Eurasian related to Hadza/Chabu/Mota groups?

The Saite
04-05-2020, 09:27 PM
Sure, I don't think it's deniable that Eurasian ancestry in some form spread from East to West but we know little more about the source of this ancestry (Dzudzuana is used as a proxy in Lazaridis model but most likely not the actual source).

The question is one of how well can we infer the genetic background of Paleolithic Northeast Africans from a relative in the Northwest corner given there is bound to be a degree of genetic structure that differentiates the two due to drift incurred via distance and societal structure (hunter-gatherers/foragers).


Actually Mitochondrial lineages can give us some Hints regarding this , Since Apart from the shared M1 & U6 Cades . There are a great differentiation between NE and NW in other Eurasian MT-DNA branches . With a Potential Paleolithic entry too in NE Africa for most .
(fadhloui-zed 2011) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/49827665_Mitochondrial_DNA_Structure_in_North_Afri ca_Reveals_a_Genetic_Discontinuity_in_the_Nile_Val ley)
One can assume that the continuous diffusions of Eurasian ancestry in NE Africa have resulted a dilution of their ancestry , already Making them eventually a Natufian_like peoples in the paleolithic lower_valley area . Hence affected Egyptians and the Pastrolists later (with other ancestries involved)

We are really in a need of NE African DNA so bad , Neolithic and onwords

The Saite
04-05-2020, 09:48 PM
Just to interject, but what actually is Basal Eurasian? Its a term thrown around a lot, even though I believe its actually hypothetical? In a reality where it exists, is Basal Eurasian related to Hadza/Chabu/Mota groups?

Basal Eurasian , Is a hypothesized lineage of the migrated early Humans (out of Africa) frequent the most in those whom get kept isolated from admixing with Neanderthals .
presumed to have existed and situationed as a group somewhere in South_West Asia , likely in this Area below according to (Yang 2018 (https://www.cell.com/trends/genetics/fulltext/S0168-9525(17)30210-X?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com% 2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS016895251730210X%3Fshowall%3Dt rue))

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6-c5PuJSfRs/WmrIbHEDFZI/AAAAAAAAGZ0/T37eYrJeIPUCxSJr-Qtt74goD_s86j3uwCLcBGAs/s400/Human_Prehistory-_Using_Ancient_Genomes_Fig_1_small.png

Their ancestry is maximized among Neolithic and Pre-Neolithic Iranian samples (Hotu cave) , but still exists in CHG , Natufians , Dzudzuana , Anatolians and among others

you can check Lazardis 2016 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature19310) for more detailed better informative words

ThaYamamoto
04-05-2020, 10:40 PM
Basal Eurasian , Is a hypothesized lineage of the migrated early Humans (out of Africa) frequent the most in those whom kept isolated from admixing with Neanderthals .
presumed to have existed and situationed as a group somewhere in South_West Asia , likely in this Area below according to (Yang 2018 (https://www.cell.com/trends/genetics/fulltext/S0168-9525(17)30210-X?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com% 2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS016895251730210X%3Fshowall%3Dt rue))

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6-c5PuJSfRs/WmrIbHEDFZI/AAAAAAAAGZ0/T37eYrJeIPUCxSJr-Qtt74goD_s86j3uwCLcBGAs/s400/Human_Prehistory-_Using_Ancient_Genomes_Fig_1_small.png

Their ancestry is maximized among Neolithic and Pre-Neolithic Iranian samples (Hotu cave) , but still exists in CHG , Natufians , Dzudzuana , Anatolians and among others

you can check Lazardis 2016 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature19310) for more detailed better informative words


And these Basal Eurasians were descendants of a Hadza-like group?

The Saite
04-05-2020, 10:51 PM
And these Basal Eurasians were descendants of a Hadza-like group?


Instead , It's a rather Matter of deep (As if it was separated) levels , when excluding Normal Eurasians.
Basal Eurasians being the least deep of them , followed by ANA then afterwords comes the Hadza_like turn

ThaYamamoto
04-05-2020, 11:09 PM
Instead , It's a rather Matter of deep (As if it was separated) levels , when excluding Normal Eurasians.
Basal Eurasians being the least deep of them , followed by ANA then afterwords comes the Hadza_like turn

Thanks, not fully following cuz Basal Eurasian has always confused me, but I don't wanna derail the thread.

Nebuchadnezzar II
04-06-2020, 11:32 AM
Thanks, not fully following cuz Basal Eurasian has always confused me, but I don't wanna derail the thread.

Remember this is a hypothetical lineage.

Consider the group of humans that migrated out of Africa 50-60 kya, let's call them non-Africans. This group of non-Africans then splits somewhere in the Middle East, resulting in two sub-groups. One of these sub-groups contains the ancestors of the main Eurasian lineages (Europeans, East Asians, Australian Aborigines, Native Americans) and the other sub-group are Basal Eurasians. Sub-group 1 containing the ancestors of the main Eurasian lineages mixes with Neanderthals and spreads across Eurasia, splitting into Western and Eastern clades later on. Sub-group 2 (Basal Eurasians) do not mix with Neanderthals and remain in the initial territories of the non-African migrations i.e Middle East and possibly Northeast Africa.

But once again, this is a model construct which may or may not reflect a real genetic component.

ThaYamamoto
04-06-2020, 03:32 PM
Remember this is a hypothetical lineage.

Consider the group of humans that migrated out of Africa 50-60 kya, let's call them non-Africans. This group of non-Africans then splits somewhere in the Middle East, resulting in two sub-groups. One of these sub-groups contains the ancestors of the main Eurasian lineages (Europeans, East Asians, Australian Aborigines, Native Americans) and the other sub-group are Basal Eurasians. Sub-group 1 containing the ancestors of the main Eurasian lineages mixes with Neanderthals and spreads across Eurasia, splitting into Western and Eastern clades later on. Sub-group 2 (Basal Eurasians) do not mix with Neanderthals and remain in the initial territories of the non-African migrations i.e Middle East and possibly Northeast Africa.

But once again, this is a model construct which may or may not reflect a real genetic component.

Thanks appreciate it, I actually get it now. The semantic issue of Basal Eurasian being considered 'non-african' is extremely strange I must say, ..if they did not intermix with other hominims like the other sub-group, non-African seems like a very flimsy term for these peoples.

Nebuchadnezzar II
04-06-2020, 04:20 PM
Thanks appreciate it, I actually get it now. The semantic issue of Basal Eurasian being considered 'non-african' is extremely strange I must say, and I'm no afrocentrist...if they did not intermix with other hominims like the other sub-group, non-African seems like a very flimsy term for these peoples.

What defines them as non-African is their participation in the Out of Africa bottleneck, not the admixture with Neanderthals/Denisovans. But imagine if this Out-of-Africa bottleneck occurred just 1km west of the border defining the Sinai peninsula and thereby geographically making them African. Would this change their genetic significance? No. They would still be the group ancestral to all Eurasians, hence why they are so named.

ThaYamamoto
06-30-2020, 11:52 PM
IMO that would seem logical based on the limited data atm

Just to build on this, played around with Ethiopian Anuak [a Luo peoples] and they seem to have the same amount of Yoruba+some Gambian affinity that the Dinka do. I think its safe to say that most modern South Sudanese pops. have this deep WA affinity, including the ancestors of modern Nilo-Bantu's like Dholuo, Alur, Acholi, Langi etc. I think with the constraints G25 suffers from regarding African ancestry [I think David stated that somewhere], this affinity is 'lost' in heavily Bantu admixed Western Nilotic speakers. I guess we can assume that the 'original' Luo peoples still present in South Sudan exhibit the same. All in all modern South Sudanese (excluding the Ubangian admixed groups and Zande < would really like to see these guys autosomals as they are considered intrusive) are a kinda homogenous cluster in terms of the WA ancestry, I can't speak for anything else. I wonder if the WA was acquired by the proto-Western Nilotes or by various sub-groups successively over time. Surely it can't be during the time of the proto-proto-Nilotes as then Somalis and Habeshas would carry it too?