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GTC
08-25-2012, 02:49 AM
Archaeologists are hoping to find the lost grave of King Richard III under a Leicester car park, which they believe was once the site of a church where the medieval monarch was buried more than 500 years ago.

Richard III, the last Plantagenet, ruled England from 1483 until he was defeated at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485. It is believed his body was stripped and despoiled and brought to Leicester, where he was buried in the church of the Franciscan Friary, known as Greyfriars.

But the exact whereabouts of the church have become lost over time and it is rumoured the monarch's bones could have been thrown in to the River Soar after the dissolution of the monasteries. Experts are hoping to dispel the rumours and uncover the site of the church and the monarch's remains.

Richard Buckley, co-director of the archaeology service at the University of Leicester, said: "The big question for us is determining the whereabouts of the church on the site, and also where in the church the body was buried.

"Although in many ways finding the remains of the king is a long shot, it is a challenge we shall undertake enthusiastically. There is certainly potential for the discovery of burials within the area, based on previous discoveries and the postulated position of the church."

Any discovered remains will be DNA-tested to confirm that they are those of Richard III.

The Richard III Society, which promotes research into the monarch, has been involved in the project.

Philippa Langley, from the society, said: "This search for Richard's grave is only one aspect of the ongoing research effort to discover the real Richard III. After his defeat his reputation suffered enormous disparagement at the hands of his opponents and successors, the Tudors. The challenge lies in uncovering the truth behind the myths.

"Richard III is a charismatic figure who attracts tremendous interest. Partly because he has been so much maligned in past centuries and partly because he occupies a pivotal place in English history. The continuing interest in Richard means that many fables have grown up around his grave.

"Although local people like Alderman Herrick in 1612 knew precisely where he was buried – and Herrick was able to show visitors a handsome stone pillar marking the king's grave in his garden – nevertheless at the same time unlikely stories were spread of Richard's bones being dug up and thrown into the river Soar. Other fables, equally discredited, claimed that his coffin was used as a horse-trough.

"This archaeological work offers a golden opportunity to learn more about medieval Leicester as well as about Richard III's last resting place – and, if he is found, to re-inter his remains with proper solemnity in Leicester cathedral."

Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/aug/24/richard-3-remains-leicester-dig

Scarlet Ibis
08-25-2012, 03:09 AM
So if they are found, what are the bets? R1b? :nod:

David
08-25-2012, 03:32 AM
>> Any discovered remains will be DNA-tested to confirm that they are those of Richard III.

What would they be comparing against to confirm that the remains were Richard III?

--david

Scarlet Ibis
08-25-2012, 03:38 AM
>> Any discovered remains will be DNA-tested to confirm that they are those of Richard III.

What would they be comparing against to confirm that the remains were Richard III?

--david

I was wondering that, too. I did a quick google search to see if any known descendants have been tested, but I didn't find anything.

Wing Genealogist
08-25-2012, 11:13 AM
According to Debbie Kennett (who actually spoke to the Richard III society some time ago) they will be undertaking a mt-DNA test, comparing any remains to the DNA of a mitochondrial descendant of Richard III's sister, Anne of York. She also posted a link:http://tinyurl.com/d8g4abb

GTC
08-25-2012, 12:53 PM
So if they are found, what are the bets? R1b? :nod:


R1b-U106. ;)

Clinton P
09-12-2012, 08:36 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19561018

The bones, believed to well preserved, are undergoing DNA analysis "DNA testing will take between eight and 12 weeks".

Richard Taylor, from the University of Leicester, said: "What we have uncovered is truly remarkable and today we will be announcing to the world that the search for King Richard III has taken a dramatic new turn."

GTC
09-12-2012, 01:07 PM
Great news! Let's hope they can extract good untainted Y-DNA and that they perform tests that we would consider satisfactory by 2012's standards.

GTC
09-13-2012, 12:00 AM
Reuters reports: "The team will compare samples from the skeletal remains with the DNA of a direct descendant of the king’s sister, Michael Ibsen, 55, a Canadian furniture maker who lives in London."

So seems the principal testing will be mtDNA -- which as we know is easier to recover that ancient Y-DNA.

MikeWhalen
09-13-2012, 11:28 AM
for a bit more info on the Canadian that will be used to test...


A Canadian link to Richard III?
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2012/09/12/20193596.html

September 12, 2012
A Canadian link to Richard III?
By Alex Weber, QMI Agency


Norm Ibsen sits in the living room of his London, Ont., home as he holds a photo of his late wife, Joy, who could be a descendant of King Richard III on Wednesday September 12, 2012. CRAIG GLOVER / QMI AGENCY
LONDON, Ont. — A Canadian family’s DNA could be the missing link in a centuries-long quest to find the remains of King Richard III.

A team of archeologists at the University of Leicester in England exhumed a skeleton believed to be Richard’s beneath one of the university’s parking lots Wednesday and are hoping DNA evidence from the London family will prove their suspicions true.

Richard was killed in 1485 during the Battle of Bosworth -- often cited as the deciding battle in the War of the Roses -- by Henry VII, father of the famed King Henry VIII.

Richard’s rise to power -- it’s believed he had his nephews murdered in order to seize the thrown -- and short two-year reign as king, is chronicled in Shakespeare’s play Richard III.

In 2005, British historian John Ashdown-Hill traced Richard’s bloodline to Joy Ibsen, a retired journalist who moved to London, Ont., from England after the Second World War and raised a family.

Ashdown-Hill discovered Ibsen and Richard shared the same maternal ancestor, Cecily Neville.

Though Ibsen died in 2008, she passed the genes onto her three children Michael, who lives in the U.K., Jeff who lives in Toronto and Leslie on Vancouver Island.

“It’s pretty exciting,” said Jeff, 49. “I wasn’t expecting the findings to be so concise ... I’m hoping that if there’s a proper funeral for him, we’ll get invited and maybe get a chance to rub elbows with some royals.”

The skeleton exhumed Wednesday was found in what’s believed to be the choir of the lost Church of the Grey Friars, the same place historical records indicate Richard was buried. Initial examinations also found trauma to the skull consistent with a battle injury and a barbed arrow through the skeleton’s upper back.

Especially telling is the spinal deformity found on the exhumed skeleton. It’s believed Richard had severe scoliosis, a form of spinal curvature that caused his right shoulder to appear visibly higher than the left, the same type of curvature found on the skeleton.

Norm Ibsen, Joy’s husband, still lives in London and said he was very excited by the discovery.

“I find it all very fascinating, it’s sort of an unreal feeling,” he said. “Joy was sort of skeptical at first when they told her but was thrilled by the revelation ... She’d love this. She was always a monarchist at heart.”

alex.webe[email protected]

Clinton P
01-25-2013, 08:32 PM
A 95 minute programme broadcast by Channel 4 (UK) at 21:00 on Monday 4th February 2013.

"When a skeleton was reported found under a Leicester council car park in September 2012, the news broke around the world. Could it be the remains, lost for 500 years, of England's most infamous king?
In a world exclusive, Channel 4 has the full inside story of the hunt for Richard III.
The discovery of the body and the battery of scientific tests to establish its identity have been carried out in complete secrecy, with no footage of them seen by anyone but the investigating team.
But this programme - made by the only team allowed to follow the scientists - tells every step, twist and turn of the story.
It unveils a brand new facial reconstruction made from the skull and - in scenes shot just hours before broadcast - reveals the results of the final tests that confirm or deny the body's identity."

Click here (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/richard-iii-the-king-in-the-car-park/episode-guide/series-1/episode-1) to go to the website.

Clinton P

basque
01-25-2013, 08:43 PM
A 95 minute programme broadcast by Channel 4 (UK) at 21:00 on Monday 4th February 2013.

"When a skeleton was reported found under a Leicester council car park in September 2012, the news broke around the world. Could it be the remains, lost for 500 years, of England's most infamous king?
In a world exclusive, Channel 4 has the full inside story of the hunt for Richard III.
The discovery of the body and the battery of scientific tests to establish its identity have been carried out in complete secrecy, with no footage of them seen by anyone but the investigating team.
But this programme - made by the only team allowed to follow the scientists - tells every step, twist and turn of the story.
It unveils a brand new facial reconstruction made from the skull and - in scenes shot just hours before broadcast - reveals the results of the final tests that confirm or deny the body's identity."

Click here (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/richard-iii-the-king-in-the-car-park/episode-guide/series-1/episode-1) to go to the website.

Clinton P

Clinton P

Thanks for the reminder I shall look forward to watching it. Cant wait.

basque :rolleyes:

GTC
02-12-2013, 01:21 AM
Here's some news on the question of the Y-DNA. Salient bits bolded in blue:

February 11, 2013
Tracing a Royal Y Chromosome
By NICHOLAS WADE New York Times

Researchers last week developed DNA evidence to help identify the remains of
a skeleton found under a parking lot in Leicester, England, as those of
Richard III, the last English king to die in battle, in 1485. But the
researchers’ work is only half-done. They have made a strong but not
conclusive link through the female line, and are now turning to the male
side for corroboration.

Turi King, a geneticist at the University of Leicester, found a match in the
mitochondrial DNA extracted from the parking lot skeleton and that of two
living descendants of Anne of York, Richard III’s sister. About 1 percent of
the English population carries this type. Mitochondrial DNA is bequeathed
exclusively through the female line.

Chris Tyler-Smith, a geneticist at the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute near
Cambridge, said the mitochondrial DNA type identified by Dr. King was “rare
enough to be interesting, but not rare enough to be conclusive.”

The Leicester team plans to investigate the paternal DNA of the remains.
Kevin Schürer, a historian at the university, has already found four living
descendants of John of Gaunt, the son of Edward III, who was Richard III’s
great-great-grandfather. Dr. King has found that their Y chromosome, which
is carried only by men, match, establishing that they are all true
descendants of John of Gaunt.

The Y chromosome DNA from the skeleton is very degraded, but Dr. King said
she had found that she could amplify it and hopes to get enough to make a
match with the living descendants.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/scien ... .html?_r=0

Clinton P
05-04-2013, 08:42 AM
A 1,700-year-old Roman cemetery has been identified beneath another car park in the city.

Click here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-22404032) to read more about this story.

Clinton P

Clinton P
05-17-2013, 10:58 AM
"A facial reconstruction based on the skull of King Richard III is going on display in Leicester's Guildhall as the first stop of a nationwide tour."

Click here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-22555317) to read more about this story.

Clinton P

Clinton P
07-01-2013, 01:43 PM
"Archaeologists who made the startling discovery of the body of Richard III in a Leicester car park are returning later to start a new dig."

Click here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-23104766) to read more about this story.

Clinton P

Jean M
02-04-2014, 11:54 PM
Richard III: a year since we found him
Four researchers tell of the 'unbearable' pressure, relentless media attention and career opportunities since the discovery
http://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/blog/2014/feb/04/richard-iii-researchers-stories-discovery-anniversary

Turi King, lecturer in genetics and archaeology at the University of Leicester:

I have been leading the DNA identification part of the Richard III project since 2011. I was away at a conference when the discovery was made and actually found out through a text. It was a bit of a heart-stopping moment when I heard all the details – that the skeleton had all the features we might expect of the remains of Richard III. Then came the realisation of the amount of work ahead....

I'm still working on the final scientific aspects and analysis of the project and hope to have it written up and submitted in the next few weeks. Once the paper is accepted, I'm going to the spa for a day with friends – a Christmas present from some of the gang on the project.

rms2
02-05-2014, 02:55 AM
My mental image of Richard III comes not from Shakespeare but from Stevenson's The Black Arrow (http://www.amazon.com/Black-Arrow-Robert-Louis-Stevenson/dp/142093922X).

Jean M
02-06-2014, 11:58 PM
New website: Leicester Cathedral’s Richard III: http://kingrichardinleicester.com/


We believe it is right that King Richard III stays in Leicester, and that his remains are reburied in our Cathedral. We intend to carry out the reburial of this anointed King of England on behalf of the whole nation with dignity and honour, and our plans for this are well advanced.

Alessio B. Bedini
02-14-2014, 04:13 PM
Today the "Corriere della Sera" broke the news that the DNA of Richard III will be sequenced entirely http://www.corriere.it/scienze/14_febbraio_12/riccardo-iii-sara-mappato-dna-re-inglese-shakespeariano-51d56e14-93e7-11e3-ab25-cf30a50da2ae.shtml

It could be very interesting especially for his father's genealogy and his Y chromosome
Theoretically he should descend in a straight line by John without land, by Geoffrey of Anjou Plantagenet, and by Godfrey Count of Gâtinais who married Ermengarde of Anjou. http://genealogy.euweb.cz/anjou/anjou2.html#GF

But I think how long it will take from 6 months to 1 year ... :\

rms2
02-15-2014, 05:28 PM
I think there must be a lot of news on dna from old remains (ancient, medieval, etc.) just waiting to be released. We could be flooded with it in the next year or two. Some of it could be quite startling and shift a few cherished paradigms.

GoldenHind
02-15-2014, 06:03 PM
I think there must be a lot of news on dna from old remains (ancient, medieval, etc.) just waiting to be released. We could be flooded with it in the next year or two. Some of it could be quite startling and shift a few cherished paradigms.

I hope you're right. I would be delighted to see a few apple carts upset.

rms2
02-15-2014, 06:16 PM
I think we have already seen the tip of the iceberg with the recent results from La Brańa, Loschbour, and Motala, especially La Brańa.

Humanist
03-19-2014, 05:02 AM
Today the "Corriere della Sera" broke the news that the DNA of Richard III will be sequenced entirely http://www.corriere.it/scienze/14_febbraio_12/riccardo-iii-sara-mappato-dna-re-inglese-shakespeariano-51d56e14-93e7-11e3-ab25-cf30a50da2ae.shtml

It could be very interesting especially for his father's genealogy and his Y chromosome
Theoretically he should descend in a straight line by John without land, by Geoffrey of Anjou Plantagenet, and by Godfrey Count of Gâtinais who married Ermengarde of Anjou. http://genealogy.euweb.cz/anjou/anjou2.html#GF

But I think how long it will take from 6 months to 1 year ... :\

It will be neat to check how many (if any) autosomal IBD segments have survived.

Genomes of Richard III and his proven relative to be sequenced (http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/press-releases/2014/february/genomes-of-richard-iii-and-his-proven-relative-to-be-sequenced)


The genomes of King Richard III and one of his family’s direct living descendants are to be sequenced in a project funded by the Wellcome Trust, the Leverhulme Trust and Professor Sir Alec Jeffreys. The project will be led by Dr Turi King of the Department of Genetics at the University of Leicester.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_-crHkVgUg

King Richard III search in new phase after ‘discovery has potential to rewrite history’ (http://www.heritagedaily.com/2012/09/king-richard-iii-search-in-new-phase-after-discovery-has-potential-to-rewrite-history/55636)


This is Michael Ibsen (genetic descendant of Richard III) and geneticist Dr. Turi King. Credit: University of Leicester

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimedia_prod/pub/web/47535_web.jpg

GTC
04-06-2014, 12:59 AM
Richard III expert: The skeleton in the car park may not be missing monarch after all

Such was the certainty with which a twisted skeleton found in a Leicester car park was identified last year as the remains of Richard III that a High Court battle is being fought over the right to decide where to bury the fallen monarch.

But confirmation “beyond reasonable doubt” that the hunchbacked king demonised by Shakespeare was found has been challenged by two leading academics, who claim there can be no confidence that the bones belong to Richard. They suggest an inquest-type hearing should now be held to examine the evidence.

The announcement last year that the remains of the monarch accused of ordering the murder of his nephews - the Princes in the Tower - had been found was billed as one of the biggest historical discoveries for decades and made headlines across the globe.

But Michael Hicks, an expert on Richard III and professor of history at Winchester University, has come forward to say he is not convinced that the remains identified by a team from the University of Leicester are those of the Yorkist monarch. He says they could belong to one of many victims of the Wars of the Roses which ravaged 15th century England.

Professor Hicks said that evidence from DNA testing and radiocarbon dating, which featured prominently in the claims that Richard had been found, could not be relied upon to prove the case and the remains could belong to one of dozens of descendants of the king’s female forebears.

Richard’s maternal grandmother, Jean Beaufort, had 16 children and many of her descendants would have been involved in the fighting between between the houses of York and Lancaster, and perished on the battlefield.

Experts at the Leicester found a match in mitochondrial or maternal-line DNA, which supposedly passes unchanged between generations, between two female descendants of Richard’s sister, Anne, and the skeleton found in a grave on the site of the medieval Greyfriars Church in Leicester.

Prof Hicks told The Independent: “If mitochrondrial DNA doesn’t change over time, descendants in the female line from Richard’s maternal grandmother, great-grandmother, great-grandmother, great-great-grandmother can share the same characteristics.

“There is potentially a considerable pool of people who could meet the scientific criteria without being Richard III. We are going way beyond the available evidence if we say this is definitely Richard III. It could be – but it is not proven and we should not confuse possibilities or probabilities with certainties.”

The academic, whose concerns are highlighted in the BBC History Magazine, said many who had fought and been killed during the Wars of the Roses, including the 1485 Battle of Bosworth at which Richard was killed, would have suffered injuries similar to those inflicted on the Leicester skeleton. He added there was also no proof from his lifetime that the king had suffered from the the scoliosis or curvature of the spine found on the remains.

Martin Biddle, a leading archaeologist and former fellow of medieval archaeology at Oxford University, also cast doubt on the identification, saying the records on the original 2012 excavation had yet to be published and further work was needed on the Greyfriars site to establish how many burials took place.

Prof Biddle told the magazine: “Without further excavation there is… no certainty about the burial that it has been claimed was that of Richard III.

“Before all this goes any further, it would be wise to be certain the body really is his. Something akin to a coroner’s court should be set up to consider all the evidence.”

The identification of the royal skeleton has provoked strong emotions from many quarters, including a group of descendants of Richard calling itself the Plantagenet Alliance which has launched High Court proceedings challenging the decision to bury the remains in Leicester Cathedral and calling for a consultation on their final resting place.

Leicester University said its identification was based on at least six separate lines of evidence, including a contemporary reports of the location of Richard’s grave and the nature of the skeleton.

In a statement, the university said: “The strength of the identification is that different kinds of evidence all point to the same result. Professor Hicks is entitled to his views but we would challenge and counter them.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/richard-iii-expert-the-skeleton-in-the-car-park-may-not-be-the-missing-monarch-after-all-9219513.html

GTC
04-06-2014, 01:54 AM
And here are some responses to the naysayers ...

Uni of Leicester:

http://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2014-archive-1/march/search-for-king-richard-iii-statement-from-the-university-of-leicester-27-march-2014

Archeologist and author Mike Pitts:

http://mikepitts.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/is-the-car-park-skeleton-richard-iii-of-course-not-its-a-skeleton/

razyn
09-25-2014, 06:15 PM
A new PBS program, "Resurrecting Richard III," aired last night as an installment of the ongoing series, "Secrets of the Dead." In the DC area it airs again on WETA this evening at 5, and Friday at 2:30 AM. I didn't see all of it, but a central component was a rather elaborate series of tests (wearing full armor, riding a war horse, wielding a sword and other tools of combat) involving a young man with scoliosis, who has spinal curvature and skeletal displacement very similar to that of the car park remains presumed to be those of Richard. Other aspects of his general health and diet were analyzed.

George Chandler
09-25-2014, 06:26 PM
A new PBS program, "Resurrecting Richard III," aired last night as an installment of the ongoing series, "Secrets of the Dead." In the DC area it airs again on WETA this evening at 5, and Friday at 2:30 AM. I didn't see all of it, but a central component was a rather elaborate series of tests (wearing full armor, riding a war horse, wielding a sword and other tools of combat) involving a young man with scoliosis, who has spinal curvature and skeletal displacement very similar to that of the car park remains presumed to be those of Richard. Other aspects of his general health and diet were analyzed.

Did the program suggest that he would not have been able to wear full armor because of his condition and were trying to disprove it?

dp
09-25-2014, 06:48 PM
Did the program suggest that he would not have been able to wear full armor because of his condition and were trying to disprove it?
Dear George,
He was able to ride the horse and armor fine. The older style saddle, with side uprights, held the participant more securely in the saddle. The armor had to be adjusted for the asymetry of the dude but appeared functional.
dp :-)
PS: Razyn thanks for starting the thread. I watched only the last 30 minutes, too. I didn't see the DNA analysis part, but the O & N isotope in the bones indicated high living within the last few years; much French drink --of the bubbly kind probably, and high meat intake.

razyn
09-25-2014, 08:08 PM
My son tells me it may be watched on the PBS website. He used this link: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/resurrecting-richard-iii-full-episode/1934/