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sktibo
12-03-2019, 08:48 PM
Those who are nearest to the Gauls are also like them, either from the permanent influence of original descent, or, because in countries which run out so far to meet each other, climate has produced similar physical qualities. But a general survey inclines me to believe that the Gauls established themselves in an island so near to them. Their religious belief may be traced in the strongly-marked British superstition. The language differs but little; there is the same boldness in challenging danger, and, when it is near, the same timidity in shrinking from it.

Those who are nearest to the Gauls resemble them, whether from the persistence of heredity, or whether, since the lands stretch out opposite each other, the climate has given the same character to the individuals. Forming a general judgment, however, it is credible that the Gauls seized the neighboring island. One sees here their sacred rites and their religious beliefs; even the speech does not differ much; there is the same boldness in seeking dangers, and the same shrinking from meeting them when they are present.
35124

This relates to this article: https://www.livescience.com/66020-gallic-warrior-grave-found.html

Of which I am a bit unsure of the validity. It claims that this warrior was a Gaul in some sections. I find the idea of a Gaulish connection to early Britain very appealing, but do you think it was true? It's one of my favorite theories anyhow. What do you folks think about this article?

Referenced:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=ddYEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=tacitus+gaulish+colonist+britain&source=bl&ots=gHw4wX-SUP&sig=ACfU3U1oGGeBPlmLApH1w5b_WACAYI7pOQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdjZTJoprmAhUFKH0KHWVGD_cQ6AEwD3oECAwQA Q#v=onepage&q=tacitus%20gaulish%20colonist%20britain&f=false

http://exploringcelticciv.web.unc.edu/tacitus-agricola/

http://www.elfinspell.com/PrimarySourceTacitusBritons.html

JonikW
12-03-2019, 09:21 PM
35124

This relates to this article: https://www.livescience.com/66020-gallic-warrior-grave-found.html

Of which I am a bit unsure of the validity. It claims that this warrior was a Gaul in some sections. I find the idea of a Gaulish connection to early Britain very appealing, but do you think it was true? It's one of my favorite theories anyhow. What do you folks think about this article?

Referenced:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=ddYEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=tacitus+gaulish+colonist+britain&source=bl&ots=gHw4wX-SUP&sig=ACfU3U1oGGeBPlmLApH1w5b_WACAYI7pOQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdjZTJoprmAhUFKH0KHWVGD_cQ6AEwD3oECAwQA Q#v=onepage&q=tacitus%20gaulish%20colonist%20britain&f=false

http://exploringcelticciv.web.unc.edu/tacitus-agricola/

I'm confident there was a great deal of movement both ways, based on many things, from art and artefacts to burials (including on a micro level the chariot burials of northern England that parallel the Parisii of Gaul). First, there's the druidic religion of course, with Britain reportedly being the centre for study for those who wanted to be initiated.
I highlighted these passages too during a rereading of Caesar recently:
Diviciacus of the Suessiones, was according to that author "the most powerful king in Gaul, who controlled not only a large part of the Belgic country, but Britain".
Then, after a rebellion in that area of Gaul, the culprits 'have now realized what a calamity they have brought upon their country, and have fled to Britain".
Then there's "Commius, whom [Caesar] had made king of the Atrebates after the conquest of that tribe – a man of whose courage, judgement, and loyalty he had a high opinion, and who was greatly respected in Britain. He instructed Commius to visit as many [British] tribes as possible, to urge them to entrust themselves to the protection of Rome, and to announce his impending arrival". The last reference is interesting for its potential linguistic implications too. But really I'm just scratching the surface here regarding British/Gaulish links.

sktibo
12-03-2019, 09:27 PM
I'm confident there was a great deal of movement both ways, based on many things, from art and artefacts to burials (including on a micro level the chariot burials of northern England that parallel the Parisii of Gaul). First, there's the druidic religion of course, with Britain reportedly being the centre for study for those who wanted to be initiated.
I highlighted these passages too during a rereading of Caesar recently:
Diviciacus of the Suessiones, was according to that author "the most powerful king in Gaul, who controlled not only a large part of the Belgic country, but Britain".
Then, after a rebellion in that area of Gaul, the culprits 'have now realized what a calamity they have brought upon their country, and have fled to Britain".
Then there's "Commius, whom [Caesar] had made king of the Atrebates after the conquest of that tribe – a man of whose courage, judgement, and loyalty he had a high opinion, and who was greatly respected in Britain. He instructed Commius to visit as many [British] tribes as possible, to urge them to entrust themselves to the protection of Rome, and to announce his impending arrival". The last reference is interesting for its potential linguistic implications too. But really I'm just scratching the surface here regarding British/Gaulish links.

Thank you so much! I didn't realize there was so much more to this connection. I started thinking about it again because I've been trying to plot those Iron Age Britons vs the Gaels and I couldn't help but notice how "Continental" the IA Britons (Except 0160) seem to look on some plots. I wonder if that could possibly be due to these Gaulish connections?

JonikW
12-03-2019, 09:51 PM
Thank you so much! I didn't realize there was so much more to this connection. I started thinking about it again because I've been trying to plot those Iron Age Britons vs the Gaels and I couldn't help but notice how "Continental" the IA Britons (Except 0160) seem to look on some plots. I wonder if that could possibly be due to these Gaulish connections?

I think you could be on to something.
Sorry I didn't actually address your first question. It's definitely possible to almost pinpoint the origin of some artefacts (a rule that holds good for the later Germanic migrations too) so I see no reason to doubt the experts who've examined the warrior here. Pleased to see there will be an exhibit. I'll try to check it out. I visited the Fishbourne villa mentioned in the article recently and particularly loved the still in situ mosaic floors from the period immediately after the Claudian conquest.

Finn
12-03-2019, 09:51 PM
Thank you so much! I didn't realize there was so much more to this connection. I started thinking about it again because I've been trying to plot those Iron Age Britons vs the Gaels and I couldn't help but notice how "Continental" the IA Britons (Except 0160) seem to look on some plots. I wonder if that could possibly be due to these Gaulish connections?

When they were close.to the Belgae than they tend to be high in Hallstatt....is this the case?

sktibo
12-03-2019, 10:12 PM
I think you could be on to something.
Sorry I didn't actually address your first question. It's definitely possible to almost pinpoint the origin of some artefacts (a rule that holds good for the later Germanic migrations too) so I see no reason to doubt the experts who've examined the warrior here. Pleased to see there will be an exhibit. I'll try to check it out. I visited the Fishbourne villa mentioned in the article recently and particularly loved the still in situ mosaic floors from the period immediately after the Claudian conquest.

If you get to the exhibit could you get some pictures for us please?


When they were close.to the Belgae than they tend to be high in Hallstatt....is this the case?

No idea Finn, but maybe I should check the G25 Hallstatt samples on a t-SNE chart relative to these to see if it's close. I've still got a lot of practice and experimenting to go on that front though. I personally doubt the Hallstatt/La Tene theories of Celtic origin but I'm also always open to being wrong. Things can change with additional data.

sktibo
12-04-2019, 03:56 AM
Hallstatt (DA111 and DA112)

35129

The distance looks too great to conclude that these Hallstatt samples have a part in this. Interesting that the pattern with the three Britons separated from the Gaels by the Saxons remains consistent however.
I think I'll try some Urnfield samples and see what happens with those.

sktibo
12-04-2019, 04:37 AM
DEU EBA Unetice and Rathlin

35130

Well, a disclaimer as always, I'm an amateur who is new to t-SNE with R. Please understand that the ideas or observations I put forth here are not any kind of solid evidence or theories that I swear by. I make observations and I comment on those observations.

That out of the way, these Unetice samples look like more likely candidates than the Hallstatt samples for continental influence in the Insular genetic type. Of course, once I added Rathlin, that throws a wrench in things as Rathlin 1 and 3 appear on either end of the Saxon range.
The yellow dots are all the modern French samples, I thought it would be appropriate to highlight those considering the theme of this thread. It doesn't look to me like the Iron Age Britons are similar to the French, considering the only French samples that overlap with their positions are on the extremities, and are probably the Breton samples. I was hoping for a bit more of an obvious Gaulish connection than I found.

One less disappointing observation however is that the two Rathlin samples are centered between the Icelandic Gaels and the most continental leaning Britons. Perhaps the Gaels could have diverged in one direction and the Britons in another? Maybe samples like Rathlin (and perhaps coincidentally, the Saxons) represent the genetic position that both the Gaels and the Britons could have originated from?
Two of the Britons seem to be shifted towards Eastern Europe rather than France and the Gaels appear to have drifted in their own unique direction. These Unetice samples look like they're circling the Insular area and it's difficult to make anything out of them as they have such a wide range.

Jessie
12-04-2019, 05:34 AM
DEU EBA Unetice and Rathlin

35130

Well, a disclaimer as always, I'm an amateur who is new to t-SNE with R. Please understand that the ideas or observations I put forth here are not any kind of solid evidence or theories that I swear by. I make observations and I comment on those observations.

That out of the way, these Unetice samples look like more likely candidates than the Hallstatt samples for continental influence in the Insular genetic type. Of course, once I added Rathlin, that throws a wrench in things as Rathlin 1 and 3 appear on either end of the Saxon range.
The yellow dots are all the modern French samples, I thought it would be appropriate to highlight those considering the theme of this thread. It doesn't look to me like the Iron Age Britons are similar to the French, considering the only French samples that overlap with their positions are on the extremities, and are probably the Breton samples. I was hoping for a bit more of an obvious Gaulish connection than I found.

One less disappointing observation however is that the two Rathlin samples are centered between the Icelandic Gaels and the most continental leaning Britons. Perhaps the Gaels could have diverged in one direction and the Britons in another? Maybe samples like Rathlin (and perhaps coincidentally, the Saxons) represent the genetic position that both the Gaels and the Britons could have originated from?
Two of the Britons seem to be shifted towards Eastern Europe rather than France and the Gaels appear to have drifted in their own unique direction. These Unetice samples look like they're circling the Insular area and it's difficult to make anything out of them as they have such a wide range.

I wish someone like alan or Dubhthach would comment on this but I was thinking with the more extreme positions of the Gaels there is a possibility of drift involved. Granted we just don't have enough samples and I wouldn't be surprised if there is not more variety in plot positions with more samples. I'm wondering though what effect things like the clan-type systems had on Ireland because they definitely were a factor in the types of ydna in certain areas.

Also regarding the Gauls they might have had more impact on areas like Cornwall and the more southern areas of Britain and not so much the more northern parts of England. Although JonikW did mention the possible connection between chariots in Northern England and Gaul.

sktibo
12-04-2019, 06:18 AM
I wish someone like alan or Dubhthach would comment on this but I was thinking with the more extreme positions of the Gaels there is a possibility of drift involved. Granted we just don't have enough samples and I wouldn't be surprised if there is not more variety in plot positions with more samples. I'm wondering though what effect things like the clan-type systems had on Ireland because they definitely were a factor in the types of ydna in certain areas.

Also regarding the Gauls they might have had more impact on areas like Cornwall and the more southern areas of Britain and not so much the more northern parts of England. Although JonikW did mention the possible connection between chariots in Northern England and Gaul.

I think I remember it being alan from who I first heard the idea that Britain in the Iron Age was somewhat "colonized" along the coastal areas by Gauls, and there being a difference between the Gaulish colonists of the coasts and the Britons of the interior of the Island. I think it was Tacitus and Strabo who were cited as writing this. That's all going off memory. I tried to find translations of writings of these two that verify this but was unable to.
I'd really like to see if alan has anything more to say on this topic, and if that was indeed him that I got these ideas from.

I think more ancient samples would definitely show more variety on the plots.

MitchellSince1893
12-04-2019, 06:39 AM
When you look at the Bell Beaker England compared to Middle Bronze England you see the center of gravity of the clusters moving from Scandinavia towards France (NE to SW), This treads keeps going SW as you look at the Iron Age and Roman samples.

Obviously an influx of dna from Gaul from the Middle Bronze Age through the Iron Age would help explain this shift over time.

Others have mentioned it, but it's interesting how the England Anglo-Saxons, England Roman, and England Iron Age samples, look quite similar....have a lot of overlap.

I plot within the boundaries of all three of these clusters in the global 25, but I'm to the south of the England Middle Bronze Age and Bell Beaker England clusters.

sktibo
12-04-2019, 07:18 AM
When you look at the Bell Beaker England compared to Middle Bronze England you see the center of gravity of the clusters moving from Scandinavia towards France (NE to SW), This treads keeps going SW as you look at the Iron Age and Roman samples.

Obviously an influx of dna from Gaul from the Middle Bronze Age through the Iron Age would help explain this shift over time.

Others have mentioned it, but it's interesting how the England Anglo-Saxons, England Roman, and England Iron Age samples, look quite similar....have a lot of overlap.

I plot within the boundaries of all three of these clusters in the global 25, but I'm to the south of the England Middle Bronze Age and Bell Beaker England clusters.

Right, I should probably plot EBA -> MBA -> LBA -> IA/Roman next on this plot for the sake of consistency.

Ruderico
12-04-2019, 11:04 AM
Don't forget the NW Euro sample from Iron Age Empuries. He could be a continental Celt/Gaul for all we know

MitchellSince1893
12-04-2019, 02:59 PM
Right, I should probably plot EBA -> MBA -> LBA -> IA/Roman next on this plot for the sake of consistency.

Here are the MBA (upper left), Iron Age (upper right), Roman Era (lower left), and Anglo Saxon (lower right), England Plots, with a stationary reference point circled (me)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/fd/ca/f7fdcadd5639b339e32b876ab09a2de9.png

The Iron Age shift is not only towards Gaul, but also towards Ireland, and Central Europe. We know that Hallstatt, Le Tene, and Belgae arrive during this period.

In the Roman Era, it continues to shift SW towards Gaul.

Center shifts back toward the NE (Scandinavia) with the Anglo-Saxons, which is to be expected.

Finn
12-04-2019, 03:30 PM
Hallstatt (DA111 and DA112)

35129

The distance looks too great to conclude that these Hallstatt samples have a part in this. Interesting that the pattern with the three Britons separated from the Gaels by the Saxons remains consistent however.
I think I'll try some Urnfield samples and see what happens with those.


The distance is not absolute may be they are influenced by Hallstatt but the influence was not as big as the BB influence.

I guess the most NW ward Isles people Scotland, the Orkneys's, Shetland and may be also parts of Ireland have a more BB genetic profile, just like the Britons and the Saxons!!!

I guess the difference between Britons and Saxons lays in the higher Funnelbeaker amount in the Saxons (mostly).

The Central European Bronze Age (Tumulus, Urnfield, Unetice etc) has had their influence but in the outmost NW less than in W Europe......

sktibo
12-04-2019, 03:37 PM
The Central European Bronze Age (Tumulus, Unrfield, Unetice etc) has had their influence but in the outmost NW less than in W Europe......

Well none of that is a proven fact. All I've seen from this experiment is that its less likely that Hallstatt had an impact than Unetice, which is also not a certainty given the variety and the samples which are close also resemble Bronze Age samples from Ireland.

I don't see anything wrong with proposing this as an idea but it is wrong to present it factually.

firemonkey
12-04-2019, 03:41 PM
A couple of basic questions: 1. How different are the Gauls from the present day French 2. How much impact did the Gauls have DNA wise on the British ?


My levels of French with Poi's runners are very low i.e. at noise level .

Finn
12-04-2019, 03:44 PM
Well none of that is a proven fact. All I've seen from this experiment is that its less likely that Hallstatt had an impact than Unetice, which is also not a certainty given the variety and the samples which are close also resemble Bronze Age samples from Ireland.

I don't see anything wrong with proposing this as an idea but it is wrong to present it factually.


You read two times I guess....and also take in account that my language is more basic than yours it's not my mother tongue! So may be the message looks sometimes more gross than in reality is the aim.

That's also the fact in international conferences, native English people assume that what they speak kind of natural, and it is for them, The Scandic and the Dutch have their contribution too, basic English is there....and I noticed that people form other places sometimes feel uncomfortable and stay silent.

No complains. And I certainly like to discus (that needs sometimes a strong message). But take it in account.

When you are aiming at the Belgae than they are close to the Halstatt people, see the Celtic vs Germanic PCA, so less Hallstatt influence means that's also likely that there is less Belgae influence....kind of logical ;) But not prove.....

sktibo
12-04-2019, 03:53 PM
You read two times I guess....and also take in account that my language is more basic than yours it's not my mother tongue! So may be the message looks sometimes more gross than in reality is the aim.


That would do it. Yeah, we have a pretty big difference in how we make something conditional vs. factual I suppose. Thank you for clarifying, it's an interesting theory.

sktibo
12-04-2019, 03:56 PM
Don't forget the NW Euro sample from Iron Age Empuries. He could be a continental Celt/Gaul for all we know

Do you mean these?

Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8203
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8209
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8214
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215

Let me know if you had a different set of samples in mind or if it was these ones. Happy to see where they plot, I need the practice with R anyhow.


A couple of basic questions: 1. How different are the Gauls from the present day French 2. How much impact did the Gauls have DNA wise on the British ?


I believe the current answer to both of these is "we don't know"
But we're enjoying discussing the possibilities

Jessie
12-04-2019, 03:57 PM
You read two times I guess....and also take in account that my language is more basic than yours it's not my mother tongue! So may be the message looks sometimes more gross than in reality is the aim.

That's also the fact in international conferences, native English people assume that what they speak kind of natural, and it is for them, The Scandic and the Dutch have their contribution too, basic English is there....and I noticed that people form other places sometimes feel uncomfortable and stay silent.

No complains. And I certainly like to discus (that needs sometimes a strong message). But take it in account.

When you are aiming at the Belgae than they are close to the Halstatt people, see the Celtic vs Germanic PCA, so less Hallstatt influence means that's also likely that there is less Belgae influence....kind of logical ;) But not prove.....

I'm in awe at how good Dutch like yourself and Scandinavians speak English. Anyway I really enjoy your contributions as would many others here as well.

Finn
12-04-2019, 04:01 PM
I'm in awe at how good Dutch like yourself and Scandinavians speak English. Anyway I really enjoy your contributions as would many others here as well.

Thanks Jessie, may be it was a a slip of the tongue or something like that, in the Netherlands we call it with self irony, we are speaking "steenkool-engels" "charbon-english" ;)

And the Dutch as the Scandics are mostly people that have an opinion, so they express (in more or less correct English ;)

JMcB
12-04-2019, 04:08 PM
I'm in awe at how good Dutch like yourself and Scandinavians speak English. Anyway I really enjoy your contributions as would many others here as well.

Yes, I would like to second that. Our friend Finn is always interesting, sometimes (purposely) funny and he links to some interesting papers and maps!

sktibo
12-04-2019, 04:08 PM
Thanks Jessie, may be it was a a slip of the tongue or something like that, in the Netherlands we call it with self irony, we are speaking "steenkool-engels" "charbon-english" ;)

And the Dutch as the Scandics are mostly people that have an opinion, so they express (in more or less correct English ;)

Your English is way, way, way better than my French or my Gaelic. I never want to discourage anyone from expressing their ideas here! But maybe now you know why I always write things like "could" "perhaps" and "I think" in my posts! These are important to us!

Dewsloth
12-04-2019, 04:10 PM
You read two times I guess....and also take in account that my language is more basic than yours it's not my mother tongue! So may be the message looks sometimes more gross than in reality is the aim.

That's also the fact in international conferences, native English people assume that what they speak kind of natural, and it is for them, The Scandic and the Dutch have their contribution too, basic English is there....and I noticed that people form other places sometimes feel uncomfortable and stay silent.

No complains. And I certainly like to discus (that needs sometimes a strong message). But take it in account.

When you are aiming at the Belgae than they are close to the Halstatt people, see the Celtic vs Germanic PCA, so less Hallstatt influence means that's also likely that there is less Belgae influence....kind of logical ;) But not prove.....

Well, the western Hallstatt sample looks to be focused a bit more south. Maybe Belgae (being a longtime contact area/buffer between Germanic and Gaul) has a Gaulish component, but is still distinct from Gaul? Or Gaul was already a north version of old Hallstatt?

We don't yet have any samples specifically identified as Belgae, right? Maybe 6DRIF22 is about as close a guess as exists at the moment, although nobody really know what he is?


https://i.imgur.com/HaWrtGN.png
https://i.imgur.com/YPyqq7C.png

Ruderico
12-04-2019, 04:48 PM
Do you mean these?

Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8203
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8209
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8214
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215

Let me know if you had a different set of samples in mind or if it was these ones. Happy to see where they plot, I need the practice with R anyhow.

Just I8206, others are either local or Greek

sktibo
12-04-2019, 04:50 PM
Just I8206, others are either local or Greek

Noted, looking forward to seeing where it plots. Thanks very much

Ruderico
12-04-2019, 04:53 PM
Noted, looking forward to seeing where it plots. Thanks very much


NW Europe


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
French_Rennes_Bretagne French_Paris
0.2223691 0.2345337
Norwegian Welsh
0.2352246 0.2358640
English Belgian
0.2365798 0.2368479
Welsh_o Dutch
0.2377625 0.2473193
Irish French_Brittany
0.2486992 0.2505981
French_Nord English_Cornwall
0.2531387 0.2544537
Scottish Icelandic
0.2554856 0.2648810
Orcadian German
0.2665502 0.2719745
Swiss_German Shetlandic
0.2775838 0.2777189


edit: individual samples list

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Irish:Irish12 Belgian:Belgium21
0.1772061 0.1794101
Welsh:WalesBK58 French_Alsace:A_68_2
0.1834802 0.1843502
Belgian:Belgium24 Scottish:Scottish3
0.1909895 0.1935769
French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_44 English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.1945071 0.1953612
Irish:Irish26 Welsh:WalesCHF63
0.1955786 0.1969391
French_Paris:19 Dutch:Netherlands16
0.1970634 0.1971649
English_Cornwall:HG00255 English_Cornwall:HG00236
0.2001674 0.2012113
French_Nord:N_48 French_Paris:1_2
0.2022350 0.2027733
English_Cornwall:HG00243 Belgian:Belgium13
0.2049049 0.2076536
French_Paris:61_2 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_25
0.2083747 0.2088397
Welsh:WalesBK68 English:England9
0.2089091 0.2099714
Norwegian:NOR106 English_Cornwall:HG00249
0.2105968 0.2135837
Orcadian:HGDP00802 Orcadian:HGDP00804
0.2140210 0.2143455
French_Brittany:French23989 English:English6
0.2175362 0.2179541
English:England10 English_Cornwall:HG00160
0.2202135 0.2204178
French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_46 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_16
0.2206105 0.2207691
Orcadian:HGDP00805 Dutch:Netherlands47
0.2225848 0.2244170
Irish:Irish29 English:HG01791
0.2257654 0.2266230
Swedish:Sweden2 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_2
0.2267069 0.2278377
French_Brittany:French24090 English:England15
0.2279759 0.2281293
German:German79 Welsh:WAL001
0.2282937 0.2286307
Norwegian:NOR109 Irish:Irish30
0.2288100 0.2300848
Scottish:Scottish5 Irish:Irish62
0.2302129 0.2303628
German:German26 French_Occitanie:T_119
0.2312250 0.2318836
Scottish:Scottish13 English:English2
0.2325511 0.2327445
Belgian:Belgium7 English:England8
0.2331330 0.2337819
English:English5 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_3
0.2338910 0.2341346
Welsh:WAL004 Irish:Irish43
0.2347978 0.2376868
Welsh_o:WalesDR68 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_28
0.2377625 0.2390188
Irish:Irish65 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_12
0.2393742 0.2411058
French_Nord:N_19 French_Auvergne:C_18
0.2411514 0.2423469
Welsh:WalesL44 Irish:Irish50
0.2425036 0.2431029
Welsh:WalesL40 French_Nord:N_44
0.2431748 0.2433578
French_Paris:77 French_Prov_Marseille:S_17
0.2433721 0.2436062
Norwegian:NOR108 Scottish:Scottish17
0.2436658 0.2439816
French_Nord:N_5 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_27
0.2444974 0.2447264
French_Brittany:French24400 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_95
0.2447427 0.2448714
French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_32 Welsh:WalesCHF13
0.2450245 0.2450755
French_Alsace:A_47 English:England11
0.2451265 0.2452550
English:England12 Irish:Irish54
0.2452794 0.2457519
Welsh:WalesCHF12 Irish:Irish55
0.2461747 0.2469575
Scottish:Scottish16 French_Alsace:A_28
0.2471295 0.2472104
French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_4 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_23
0.2474753 0.2475056
Welsh:WalesCHF56 French_Auvergne:C_24
0.2476025 0.2477014
French_Alsace:A_42 German:German59
0.2478830 0.2481713
Swiss_German:Swiss_German5 Scottish:Scottish6
0.2489177 0.2490763
Belgian:Belgium2 Swedish:Sweden10
0.2501080 0.2501839
French_Alsace:A_15 Belgian:Belgium17
0.2503158 0.2506771
French_Nord:N_2 Irish:Irish21
0.2507150 0.2508047
Irish:Irish46 French_Rennes_Bretagne:B_59
0.2514995 0.2516426

Dewsloth
12-04-2019, 05:12 PM
Noted, looking forward to seeing where it plots. Thanks very much

Relatively close to people like Aroon, Capitalis, Radboud and even JMcB :)

Finn
12-04-2019, 05:19 PM
Relatively close to people like Aroon, Capitalis, Radboud and even JMcB :)

Makes sense....see the Belgae area....

https://www.mupload.nl/img/lvbrbncca.18.37.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/0ealnpvtsldj.21.37.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/7jgkgn.22.13.png

JMcB
12-04-2019, 05:23 PM
Relatively close to people like Aroon, Capitalis, Radboud and even JMcB :)

:hat: :thumb: :beerchug:

sktibo
12-04-2019, 05:30 PM
I can't wait to get home so I can start to mess around with this I8206. Those closest item distances sure looking intriguing.
It's gonna be a long day..

Finn
12-04-2019, 06:04 PM
:hat: :thumb: :beerchug:


That looks too Bavaria MA JMcB!

sktibo
12-05-2019, 12:22 AM
Don't forget the NW Euro sample from Iron Age Empuries. He could be a continental Celt/Gaul for all we know

35142

Given the geographical location of this individual, Gaul is much more likely than Briton. I thought maybe this sample could cluster near the Britons but I did not expect this piece to fall so perfectly into place, in three runs it clustered with the two most outlying (continental shifted) Iron Age Britons. I see this as possible "evidence"* that these two Britons could actually be Gauls as well. I'm more excited than ever to see some samples from Gaul now. This may also indicate that Briton 0160, who always seems fairly close to OREA1 could be representative of a native Briton than the other Iron Age samples. Although this would mean a clean line cannot really be drawn between the Gaels and the Britons, perhaps we will be able to draw one between the Insular Celts and the Gauls. I'm feeling hopeful.

Perhaps this Empuries sample really does represent how the Gauls would plot? Perhaps these two Britons were Gauls or the descendants of Gaulish colonists. I would like to think that they were. Thank you for the suggestion, Ruderico, I think it was an excellent suggestion. Does anyone happen to know if we have a Y-DNA haplogroup for this sample? Links to the paper/study it was featured in?

*This is not a professional analysis.

JonikW
12-05-2019, 01:15 AM
35142

Given the geographical location of this individual, Gaul is much more likely than Briton. I thought maybe this sample could cluster near the Britons but I did not expect this piece to fall so perfectly into place, in three runs it clustered with the two most outlying (continental shifted) Iron Age Britons. I see this as possible "evidence"* that these two Britons could actually be Gauls as well. I'm more excited than ever to see some samples from Gaul now. This may also indicate that Briton 0160, who always seems fairly close to OREA1 could be representative of a native Briton than the other Iron Age samples. Although this would mean a clean line cannot really be drawn between the Gaels and the Britons, perhaps we will be able to draw one between the Insular Celts and the Gauls. I'm feeling hopeful.

Perhaps this Empuries sample really does represent how the Gauls would plot? Perhaps these two Britons were Gauls or the descendants of Gaulish colonists. I would like to think that they were. Thank you for the suggestion, Ruderico, I think it was an excellent suggestion. Does anyone happen to know if we have a Y-DNA haplogroup for this sample? Links to the paper/study it was featured in?

*This is not a professional analysis.

Interesting work. When we get the Reich Britons and some definite Gaulish samples you'll have a lot to keep you going. From the archaeological and textual evidence I predict that the people of both coasts will look very similar (particularly in the respective Belgic settlements). How the Neolithic-shifted samples that Reich has spotted will fit in I don't know, although Rome as an explanation looks plausible. As I've said before, I'm surrounded by villas in Kent and I reckon those wealthy families had a genetic impact.

linthos
12-05-2019, 04:27 AM
35142

Given the geographical location of this individual, Gaul is much more likely than Briton. I thought maybe this sample could cluster near the Britons but I did not expect this piece to fall so perfectly into place, in three runs it clustered with the two most outlying (continental shifted) Iron Age Britons. I see this as possible "evidence"* that these two Britons could actually be Gauls as well. I'm more excited than ever to see some samples from Gaul now. This may also indicate that Briton 0160, who always seems fairly close to OREA1 could be representative of a native Briton than the other Iron Age samples. Although this would mean a clean line cannot really be drawn between the Gaels and the Britons, perhaps we will be able to draw one between the Insular Celts and the Gauls. I'm feeling hopeful.

Perhaps this Empuries sample really does represent how the Gauls would plot? Perhaps these two Britons were Gauls or the descendants of Gaulish colonists. I would like to think that they were. Thank you for the suggestion, Ruderico, I think it was an excellent suggestion. Does anyone happen to know if we have a Y-DNA haplogroup for this sample? Links to the paper/study it was featured in?

*This is not a professional analysis.

For the paper it was in, I believe it's this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6436108/

Looks like he's listed as R1b1a1a2a1a2. The Derived SNPs are in Table S4.

sktibo
12-05-2019, 05:02 AM
35143

The same plot, this time with the Roman Britons. Three of them are in a pretty interesting position and don't seem to align with the ones near 0160 or the continental pulled Britons and the possible Gaul. Two of the Britons and the one "Gaul" share such a similar position that maybe someone could use those as a "Gaulish" category for an nMonte calculator or something like that.

I also did a PCA with PAST showing British EBA (blue) MBA (orange) and LBA (green) and a t-SNE with Rtsne showing British EBA (black) MBA (orange) and LBA (green)

3514435145

JonikW
12-05-2019, 11:42 AM
I've dug out some data on coin distribution in Britain and Gaul that may be of interest because it sheds light on traffic between the two lands and exactly how that was localised. It'll be interesting to see how these three maps of material artefacts tie in with the forthcoming Reich and Gaulish aDNA data - I think it's a fair bet that we may well see a correlation.

Among material objects coins seem to me to be potentially the best proxy for population movements (whether permanent or transitory) given their function in trade and as a store of value. They also have the advantage of revealing where they both began and ended their circulation, from minting to eventual loss or burial.

These three maps are all from the introductory material in my 1970s Ordnance Survey map of Iron Age Britain. As we might expect, they broadly suggest Belgic movement from the Continent to Britain rather than the other way round, but the real interest lies in the spread of finds and focal points for their burial or loss.

The Armorican coinage map is worth a close look. You'll see here that a number of Armorican 1st century AD hoards have been found in the Channel Islands. (There's some dispute about this, but they may tie in with Caesar's harrying of what was to become the Breton coast, with the Channel Islands acting as a refuge from the destruction.) The correspondence with Mount Batten on the edge of Cornwall is worth noting as this had been a trade route (a point of disembarkation for immigrants too?) into Britain since the Bronze Age.

Apologies for the quality of my mobile phone snaps; I hope the text and colours are legible

35149

35150

35151

Finn
12-05-2019, 06:25 PM
35142

Given the geographical location of this individual, Gaul is much more likely than Briton. I thought maybe this sample could cluster near the Britons but I did not expect this piece to fall so perfectly into place, in three runs it clustered with the two most outlying (continental shifted) Iron Age Britons. I see this as possible "evidence"* that these two Britons could actually be Gauls as well. I'm more excited than ever to see some samples from Gaul now. This may also indicate that Briton 0160, who always seems fairly close to OREA1 could be representative of a native Briton than the other Iron Age samples. Although this would mean a clean line cannot really be drawn between the Gaels and the Britons, perhaps we will be able to draw one between the Insular Celts and the Gauls. I'm feeling hopeful.

Perhaps this Empuries sample really does represent how the Gauls would plot? Perhaps these two Britons were Gauls or the descendants of Gaulish colonists. I would like to think that they were. Thank you for the suggestion, Ruderico, I think it was an excellent suggestion. Does anyone happen to know if we have a Y-DNA haplogroup for this sample? Links to the paper/study it was featured in?

*This is not a professional analysis.

This sample is very close to Radboud:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/qu87bp71u8.19.16.png

I can see a possible link between Radboud and the "Gauls" but why is this sample so close to the Anglo-Saxons? What's the possible link?

sktibo
12-05-2019, 07:05 PM
This sample is very close to Radboud:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/qu87bp71u8.19.16.png

I can see a possible link between Radboud and the "Gauls" but why is this sample so close to the Anglo-Saxons? What's the possible link?

Because the Anglo Saxon samples occupy the middle of the Insular and Nordic cluster on G25. Even on Celtic vs Germanic PCA, there's an Anglo-Saxon closer to the Irish cluster. I'm surprised you asked what the possible link would be because you talk about it all the time, all these peoples appear to be the descendants of NW European Bronze Age peoples like the Beakers and there doesn't seem to have been that much genetic diversity among them. When you use a PCA like G25 and you run a model or closest distances it's comparing the co-ordinates to the other samples, it isn't taking strands of genetic markers and comparing them. So you can easily match a similar population without being descended from that population, and this happens all the time, Jessie matches the Saxons too. Does that mean Jessie is a Saxon? No. Does it mean Saxons were very similar to the populations Jessie is descended from? Probably.

JMcB
12-05-2019, 07:06 PM
Just for fun, here he is against the modern averages and a stranger who wandered in out of nowhere. :hat:


Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206
0.03406911 French_Brittany
0.03535686 English
0.03539862 Welsh
0.03577452 Dutch
0.03579558 JMcB
0.03719681 Norwegian
0.03722799 Irish
0.03732860 Scottish
0.03770647 English_Cornwall
0.03812733 Belgian
0.03880635 Orcadian
0.04049563 German
0.04120672 French_Paris
0.04138276 Shetlandic
0.04213115 Icelandic
0.04213166 French_Nord
0.04527623 Swedish
0.04626335 French_Alsace
0.04637824 Swiss_German
0.04931907 Austrian
0.05116860 French_Occitanie
0.05441030 French_Auvergne
0.05550067 Swiss_French
0.05654076 German_East
0.05740686 Czech

linthos
12-05-2019, 07:32 PM
Because the Anglo Saxon samples occupy the middle of the Insular and Nordic cluster on G25. Even on Celtic vs Germanic PCA, there's an Anglo-Saxon closer to the Irish cluster. I'm surprised you asked what the possible link would be because you talk about it all the time, all these peoples appear to be the descendants of NW European Bronze Age peoples like the Beakers and there doesn't seem to have been that much genetic diversity among them. When you use a PCA like G25 and you run a model or closest distances it's comparing the co-ordinates to the other samples, it isn't taking strands of genetic markers and comparing them. So you can easily match a similar population without being descended from that population, and this happens all the time, Jessie matches the Saxons too. Does that mean Jessie is a Saxon? No. Does it mean Saxons were very similar to the populations Jessie is descended from? Probably.

Ran into the same thing when comparing myself to moderns - I by far seem to most closely match Norwegian, when I have no known ancestry from there (outside of whatever the Vikings etc did in areas I do have ancestry from).

I've noticed many of the samples being mentioned also being close in distance to myself, which was interesting to me. Most of my ancestry is a mixture of French and Scottish, and since we're talking about Gauls in Britain this may be expected anyway with that type of ancestry.

Similar to what Finn posted for Radboud in adding myself to the samples for source:

Scaled:

35161

Unscaled:

35164

My own comparison to ancients, which does have a number of the samples being discussed:

Scaled:

35163

Unscaled:

35162


Again, just something I found interesting.

Finn
12-05-2019, 08:09 PM
Because the Anglo Saxon samples occupy the middle of the Insular and Nordic cluster on G25. Even on Celtic vs Germanic PCA, there's an Anglo-Saxon closer to the Irish cluster. I'm surprised you asked what the possible link would be because you talk about it all the time, all these peoples appear to be the descendants of NW European Bronze Age peoples like the Beakers and there doesn't seem to have been that much genetic diversity among them. When you use a PCA like G25 and you run a model or closest distances it's comparing the co-ordinates to the other samples, it isn't taking strands of genetic markers and comparing them. So you can easily match a similar population without being descended from that population, and this happens all the time, Jessie matches the Saxons too. Does that mean Jessie is a Saxon? No. Does it mean Saxons were very similar to the populations Jessie is descended from? Probably.

Yes, but I see that this sample is close to the Saxons and Norwegians but is more on distance to Jessie and me. But Jessie and I come close to the Saxons too. So it seems like if Jessie and I share different components with the Anglo-Saxons than Radboud (and JmcB ) do.....?

https://www.mupload.nl/img/sjtxzu7.50.30.png

sktibo
12-05-2019, 08:46 PM
Yes, but I see that this sample is close to the Saxons and Norwegians but is more on distance to Jessie and me. But Jessie and I come close to the Saxons too. So it seems like if Jessie and I share different components with the Anglo-Saxons than Radboud (and JmcB) do.....?

I don't understand what you are asking can you try to re-phrase this?

Radboud
12-05-2019, 08:58 PM
This sample is very close to Radboud:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/qu87bp71u8.19.16.png

I can see a possible link between Radboud and the "Gauls" but why is this sample so close to the Anglo-Saxons? What's the possible link?

Is this the scaled or unscaled version? I think that Sktibo's explanation about the similarities between the Gaul and the Anglo-Saxon also applies for me.

I have seen some recent PCA's/plots from Ph2ter and I rather cluster with the ancient samples from Rome like ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1286 and ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31.


This is my (unscaled) top 25 list:

0.01606144 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA:I0099
0.01636062 ISL_Viking_Age_mixed:TSK-A26
0.01669132 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1286
0.01670479 England_Saxon:I0769
0.01698823 England_MBA:I7576
0.01711900 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse:VDP-A5
0.01725862 IRL_BA:rath3
0.01802360 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5023
0.01824884 Bell_Beaker_England:I6775
0.01827129 CZE_Unetice_EBA:I5043
0.01844017 Bell_Beaker_FRA:I1382
0.01868716 DEU_MA_ACD:STR_355
0.01898921 England_IA:M1489
0.01908298 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
0.01913165 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7278
0.01914967 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ11
0.01970051 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.01995921 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I2365
0.02014001 Bell_Beaker_FRA:I1390
0.02015540 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale:I0111
0.02026721 England_Saxon:I0161
0.02031994 CZE_EBA:I7200
0.02062402 Scythian_MDA_o2:scy303
0.02071859 England_LBA:I5383
0.02080625 Bell_Beaker_England:I2445

Finn
12-05-2019, 09:13 PM
On national scale we see here a big difference between Norway/Saxons (more close to the "Gaul" sample) and Sweden (that is most on distance).

What makes this difference? Why are the Norwegians more "Gaulish" than the Swedes?

https://www.mupload.nl/img/scrffnh6wg10s.08.59.png

Finn
12-05-2019, 09:17 PM
I don't understand what you are asking can you try to re-phrase this?

Ok Jessie and I are close to the A-S. The Gaullish sample is close to A-S. But Jessie and I are not close to the Gaulish sample. Seems like a triangle.

So I guess that the closeness of Jessie and I to A-S is due to a different component than the "Gaulish" one.

Excuse for the staccato.

Finn
12-05-2019, 09:33 PM
Is this the scaled or unscaled version? I think that Sktibo's explanation about the similarities between the Gaul and the Anglo-Saxon also applies for me.

I have seen some recent PCA's/plots from Ph2ter and I rather cluster with the ancient samples from Rome like ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1286 and ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31.


This is my (unscaled) top 25 list:

0.01606144 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA:I0099
0.01636062 ISL_Viking_Age_mixed:TSK-A26
0.01669132 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1286
0.01670479 England_Saxon:I0769
0.01698823 England_MBA:I7576
0.01711900 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse:VDP-A5
0.01725862 IRL_BA:rath3
0.01802360 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5023
0.01824884 Bell_Beaker_England:I6775
0.01827129 CZE_Unetice_EBA:I5043
0.01844017 Bell_Beaker_FRA:I1382
0.01868716 DEU_MA_ACD:STR_355
0.01898921 England_IA:M1489
0.01908298 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
0.01913165 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7278
0.01914967 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ11
0.01970051 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.01995921 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I2365
0.02014001 Bell_Beaker_FRA:I1390
0.02015540 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale:I0111
0.02026721 England_Saxon:I0161
0.02031994 CZE_EBA:I7200
0.02062402 Scythian_MDA_o2:scy303
0.02071859 England_LBA:I5383
0.02080625 Bell_Beaker_England:I2445

Scaled.
On number 1 is ultimate Urnfield....on the whole range high "Gaulish" like (to stay on topic here).

sktibo
12-05-2019, 09:40 PM
Ok Jessie and I are close to the A-S. The Gaullish sample is close to A-S. But Jessie and I are not close to the Gaulish sample. Seems like a triangle.

So I guess that the closeness of Jessie and I to A-S is due to a different component than the "Gaulish" one.

Excuse for the staccato.

Firstly I think it's important to note that part of the reason I'm using tSNE to exaggerate the distance so that we can really pick these differences apart. It seems to have successfully produced a gap between the ORE-A-1 Gael and the "Gauls" of Iron Age Britain and Iberia, with the Saxons and one other Briton in between these two groups.
Hypothetical possibilities for Jessie: 1. Jessie, being a Gael, could have potentially had ancestors who were closer to ORE-A-1, but later these were pulled into the middle by a number of possible factors.
2. If we look at the possible range for EBA, MBA, and LBA, the position of the Saxons does not differ greatly from where these were, all of them seem to occupy the same genetic space. Thus, a second possibility exists that some of the Gaels never really changed position from these initial genetic founders of Britain and Ireland.
A hypothetical possibility for Finn: it's also possible that Finn's position has not diverged much from the Bronze Age founders of this general genetic space.

That's really the big problem here with NW Europe. We have all these migrations and histories of movement, but none of these populations might have ever been that different. So how are we supposed to prove or detect these things?

Haplotypic-based sharing methods and Y chromosome analysis demonstrate strong continuity between the Early Bronze Age and modern Irish populations, suggesting no substantial population replacement has occurred on the island since this point in time.
http://www.tara.tcd.ie/handle/2262/82960

BUT - things got exciting when we noticed using tSNE that two of the Britons were pulled away from this "middle" and then the "gaul" as suggested by Ruderico plotted right with these two. So maybe we can start to detect a more noticeable difference when we get into the Iron Age...
When that comes to you and Jessie, that could mean neither of you were affected by this Iron Age difference as much or at all, which might make sense if it was the movement of Gauls causing this.
Edit: I need to add, that I really should plot you and Jessie on this to make a statement with greater certainty.

Camulogène Rix
12-05-2019, 09:59 PM
Interesting work. When we get the Reich Britons and some definite Gaulish samples you'll have a lot to keep you going. From the archaeological and textual evidence I predict that the people of both coasts will look very similar (particularly in the respective Belgic settlements). How the Neolithic-shifted samples that Reich has spotted will fit in I don't know, although Rome as an explanation looks plausible. As I've said before, I'm surrounded by villas in Kent and I reckon those wealthy families had a genetic impact.

Drif 22 is probably a Gaul from Belgica or from NW Gaul

35176

Finn
12-05-2019, 10:04 PM
BUT - things got exciting when we noticed using tSNE that two of the Britons were pulled away from this "middle" and then the "gaul" as suggested by Ruderico plotted right with these two. So maybe we can start to detect a more noticeable difference when we get into the Iron Age...
When that comes to you and Jessie, that would mean neither of you were affected by this Iron Age difference as much or at all, which might make sense if it was the movement of Gauls causing this.

Thanks!! And in this respect Radboud is also very interesting!

But when I compare my results with that of Radboud ^^^ than I see some difference the Anglo-Saxons that are close to me are differentiated from those close to Radboud.

Obviously is this a thing in whole NW Europe up to Norway some are more and other less effected by (give it a name) the movement of the Gauls (or heirs etc).

https://www.mupload.nl/img/qllrqd9e7tk6n.44.18.png

JonikW
12-05-2019, 10:24 PM
Drif 22 is probably a Gaul from Belgica or from NW Gaul

35176

Thanks. I just love those maps... I think you could be right, although I guess this could also be a Briton from the Belgic areas of the island.

linthos
12-05-2019, 10:31 PM
I want to say thanks to sktibo for some info on how he was doing the tsne plots. Given my distances, I was just curious what a plot would look like with my coordinates on it.

35178

Fairly close to that grouping.

Also, going to run this again with more data (as tsne wants more data in general from reading), but the fact that groups plots so close still is interesting.

sktibo
12-05-2019, 10:34 PM
I want to say thanks to sktibo for some info on how he was doing the tsne plots. Given my distances, I was just curious what a plot would look like with my coordinates on it.

35178

Fairly close to that grouping.

Damn, that's right in there with the "Gauls". I guess being roughly half Scottish and half French could put one in that position.


Drif 22 is probably a Gaul from Belgica or from NW Gaul


Well, although it is closer to the Empuries and the "Gaulish" Britons than the other Roman samples it still is pretty distant. Maybe though. The data we have is incredibly limited.


Thanks!! And in this respect Radboud is also very interesting!

But when I compare my results with that of Radboud ^^^ than I see some difference the Anglo-Saxons that are close to me are differentiated from those close to Radboud.


Well, you and Radboud aren't always the same. I think the difference could have been that South Holland/Netherlands was less isolated than the north? Just my idea, I'm no expert. Wasn't the south half of the Netherlands occupied by Rome, and previously the Gauls while the north half of the Netherlands was not occupied by Rome or the Gauls??

JonikW
12-06-2019, 12:04 AM
Damn, that's right in there with the "Gauls". I guess being roughly half Scottish and half French could put one in that position.



Well, although it is closer to the Empuries and the "Gaulish" Britons than the other Roman samples it still is pretty distant. Maybe though. The data we have is incredibly limited.



Well, you and Radboud aren't always the same. I think the difference could have been that South Holland/Netherlands was less isolated than the north? Just my idea, I'm no expert. Wasn't the south half of the Netherlands occupied by Rome, and previously the Gauls while the north half of the Netherlands was not occupied by Rome or the Gauls??

"Incredibly limited" is a good description of a dozen samples sktibo. We're talking hundreds of years of history during which millions of locals lived and died in what must have been a diverse population. I reckon we need a couple of dozen samples from all around Iron Age Gaul and Britain before we can draw any serious conclusions at all. On the positive side, I was just watching a new episode of the BBC's Digging for Britain featuring an early Iron Age burial site with three tightly crouched, perhaps even bound, bodies in Dorset. There were no grave goods and apparently the only parallels are in Wales and Cornwall. They've left the bodies in the ground, just taking samples for DNA testing to learn about "the origins of these people" as Dr Martin Papworth of the National Trust put it. So once again, it's heartening to see that aDNA testing is taking off at British archaeological sites, and hopefully more of our questions will be answered soon. It really can't come soon enough for all of us here.:)

Edit: They want to sample the whole genomes here, so we're spared only getting mitochondrial results if the preservation is good.

sktibo
12-06-2019, 12:20 AM
"Incredibly limited" is a good description of a dozen samples sktibo. We're talking hundreds of years of history during which millions of locals lived and died in what must have been a diverse population. I reckon we need a couple of dozen samples from all around Iron Age Gaul and Britain before we can draw any serious conclusions at all. On the positive side, I was just watching a new episode of the BBC's Digging for Britain featuring an early Iron Age burial site with three tightly crouched, perhaps even bound, bodies in Dorset. There were no grave goods and apparently the only parallels are in Wales and Cornwall. They've left the bodies in the ground, just taking samples for DNA testing to learn about "the origins of these people" as Dr Martin Papworth of the National Trust put it. So once again, it's heartening to see that aDNA testing is taking off at British archaeological sites, and hopefully more of our questions will be answered soon. It really can't come soon enough for all of us here.:)

Edit: They want to sample the whole genomes here, so we're spared only getting mitochondrial results if the preservation is good.

I thought something like "Horrendously underrepresented" might have been a bit too dramatic, so I went with "incredibly limited" The reasons you mentioned are precisely why I pretty much only speak in conditional tense when I write here.
I don't think I'd describe any NW European population as "diverse" though, especially not those in the Isles during this time frame. Surprisingly lacking in genetic variation or awfully close together might be more along the lines of how I would describe that.
Fantastic to hear about additional samples. I often think about how we so often speak of needing more samples, and then I remember that of all the regions of Europe, Britain and Ireland are some of the most heavily sampled areas, aren't they? I wonder how people looking into other areas must feel as we still can't draw any real conclusions from everything that we have.

JonikW
12-06-2019, 12:50 AM
I thought something like "Horrendously underrepresented" might have been a bit too dramatic, so I went with "incredibly limited" The reasons you mentioned are precisely why I pretty much only speak in conditional tense when I write here.
I don't think I'd describe any NW European population as "diverse" though, especially not those in the Isles during this time frame. Surprisingly lacking in genetic variation or awfully close together might be more along the lines of how I would describe that.
Fantastic to hear about additional samples. I often think about how we so often speak of needing more samples, and then I remember that of all the regions of Europe, Britain and Ireland are some of the most heavily sampled areas, aren't they? I wonder how people looking into other areas must feel as we still can't draw any real conclusions from everything that we have.

True, we're relatively lucky sktibo. By "diverse" I was really thinking for example of what I've posted on this site before about rock carvings in the north of England that parallel Scandinavia, so we might see a pull that way in some population groups there. Likewise there may be people on the west coast more shifted to Ireland, and Neolithic holdouts elsewhere. But all broadly from the same NW European mix, as you suggest.

JMcB
12-06-2019, 01:08 AM
I want to say thanks to sktibo for some info on how he was doing the tsne plots. Given my distances, I was just curious what a plot would look like with my coordinates on it.

35178

Fairly close to that grouping.

Also, going to run this again with more data (as tsne wants more data in general from reading), but the fact that groups plots so close still is interesting.

There was a thread devoted to t-SNE plotting not too long ago, that was started by Ger Huijbregts. Which you both might find it interesting, if you haven’t already seen it.

Ger, anglesqueville and ph2ter were some of the contributors.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18477-European-PCA-and-beyond&p=605619&viewfull=1#post605619

sktibo
12-06-2019, 01:25 AM
There was a thread devoted to t-SNE plotting not too long ago that was started by Ger Huijbregts. You both might find it interesting, if you haven’t already seen it.

Ger, anglesqueville and ph2ter were some of the contributors.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18477-European-PCA-and-beyond&p=605619&viewfull=1#post605619

Thanks for the link, I was lucky to have ph2ter help me get going with Rtsne.

If you refer to the Genetic Landscape of Scotland and the Isles and you look and their tSNE in the main paper and compare it to PCA 1 and 2 in the supplementary, I think it's a great representation of how tSNE can help us visualize these plots in a 2d space when we are looking at so much data which is so similar. PCA 1 and 2 is almost impossible to pick out the clusters but when viewed with the tSNE we can see where they begin and end. Ever since seeing those I knew I had to learn how to use tSNE if I wanted to keep discussing North-Western Europe.
That's also why I included both a PCA and tSNE in post #37 here, so I had a reference for the differences in the visual space of NW Europe between the two methods!

JMcB
12-06-2019, 03:31 AM
Thanks for the link, I was lucky to have ph2ter help me get going with Rtsne.

If you refer to the Genetic Landscape of Scotland and the Isles and you look and their tSNE in the main paper and compare it to PCA 1 and 2 in the supplementary, I think it's a great representation of how tSNE can help us visualize these plots in a 2d space when we are looking at so much data which is so similar. PCA 1 and 2 is almost impossible to pick out the clusters but when viewed with the tSNE we can see where they begin and end. Ever since seeing those I knew I had to learn how to use tSNE if I wanted to keep discussing North-Western Europe.
That's also why I included both a PCA and tSNE in post #37 here, so I had a reference for the differences in the visual space of NW Europe between the two methods!

Yes, I remember the t-SNE in the paper, which was also referenced in the thread and as usual ph2ter contributed a series of artistically colored plots. As did the others. In some instances the geographical setting was clearly apparent, while in other not as much. If I remember correctly, it works better with a lot of data but I’ll leave that to others who know more than I do. Anyway, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Finn
12-06-2019, 08:14 AM
Well, you and Radboud aren't always the same. I think the difference could have been that South Holland/Netherlands was less isolated than the north? Just my idea, I'm no expert. Wasn't the south half of the Netherlands occupied by Rome, and previously the Gauls while the north half of the Netherlands was not occupied by Rome or the Gauls??

Yes, may be Caesar wasn't that odd, left of the Rhine 'Gauls' right of the Rhine 'Germanics'.

Or in nowadays language of a scientific paper:

The Dutch North–South PC also shows a decrease in heterozygosity and an increase in mean haplotype block size in Northern as compared to Southern Dutch individuals (Figure 2), which has been observed between Northern and Southern European populations as well, and is best explained by a serial-founder effect. This effect is in line with the European South–-North expansions expected to have occurred at least during Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic times. This effect does not necessarily have to reflect an upward migration that took place within the Netherlands; it may also be that, more recently, Southern Europeans migrated more to the South of the Netherlands, while Northern Europeans migrated more to the Northern parts of the country, maintaining the North–South distribution within the country.

An add to that the North Dutch people are more connected to the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavian, this shaped the migration to the North (Dutch) and thereby shaped most probably the North Dutch gene pool. The South Dutch are more connected to Belgium, NW France.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201348

So (tentative for the 'debate'): South Dutch have a (heavy) 'Gaulish' touch, the North Dutch don't have. But more northwards this 'Gaulish factor' pops up in .... Norway....how come? At the same time looking at the 'Gael' I see a (little bit) overlap between the Gael and some North Dutch.....

Radboud
12-06-2019, 03:02 PM
Scaled.
On number 1 is ultimate Urnfield....on the whole range high "Gaulish" like (to stay on topic here).

It's impossible to tell without genuine Gaulish samples if my list is high "Gaulish" like. If I remember correctly, French samples from the Iron Age period (and also from different time periods) are coming soon. I would be suprised if these Gaulish samples from France are going to be similar to samples like Halberstadt_LBA, because Halberstadt_LBA is known to be very NW European like. I was also suprised that he was my closest match, because I was usually more 'southern' (genetically) than this sample in previous tests, although these distances should be not taken to literally. It just basically shows that I am similar to Bell Beakers, Bronze age and medieval samples(Vikings included).

The discussion about Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206 is interesting and it's obvious that he was originally from the north, but personally, I am not that close to this specific sample. My conclusion is not only based on the distance list, but also on recent PCA's/plots made by Ph2ter etc and Nmonte runs. And besides, there is no confirmation that this was sample was a Gaul. So I would rather wait for actual Gaul samples before we draw conclusions.

Ruderico
12-06-2019, 03:18 PM
I8206 doesn't seem particularly close to most of modern French individuals, which could be just a mere curiosity of Gallic genetic variation (assuming he's a Gaul, which we don't really know) or hint at some changes that happened since then

Youenn
12-06-2019, 05:45 PM
The multiple maternal legacy of the Late Iron Age group of Urville-Nacqueville (France, Normandy) documents a long-standing genetic contact zone in northwestern France (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0207459)


The PCA based on mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies (S10 Table) of extant European populations showed, on the one hand, that extant European populations were maternally homogeneous and, on the other hand, that current French regional populations were maternally heterogeneous, as already noted [36,50,51]. In this PCA, the UN (Urville-Nacqueville) ancient group falls outside the current European population cluster but close to extant populations from England and Normandy (Calvados)

35190

Finn
12-06-2019, 05:50 PM
It's impossible to tell without genuine Gaulish samples if my list is high "Gaulish" like. If I remember correctly, French samples from the Iron Age period (and also from different time periods) are coming soon. I would be suprised if these Gaulish samples from France are going to be similar to samples like Halberstadt_LBA, because Halberstadt_LBA is known to be very NW European like. I was also suprised that he was my closest match, because I was usually more 'southern' (genetically) than this sample in previous tests, although these distances should be not taken to literally. It just basically shows that I am similar to Bell Beakers, Bronze age and medieval samples(Vikings included).

The discussion about Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206 is interesting and it's obvious that he was originally from the north, but personally, I am not that close to this specific sample. My conclusion is not only based on the distance list, but also on recent PCA's/plots made by Ph2ter etc and Nmonte runs. And besides, there is no confirmation that this was sample was a Gaul. So I would rather wait for actual Gaul samples before we draw conclusions.

You are absolutely right. And in the experimental model of Skitbo, Finn Mom scores also high Gaullish and "the no Gaulish in North Dutch" idea is flushed away.....


:behindsofa:


https://www.mupload.nl/img/czxi77g9jec.45.43.png

Webb
12-06-2019, 06:10 PM
I8206 doesn't seem particularly close to most of modern French individuals, which could be just a mere curiosity of Gallic genetic variation (assuming he's a Gaul, which we don't really know) or hint at some changes that happened since then

I8206 was determined to be DF27>Z195 by R.Rocca.

sktibo
12-06-2019, 06:21 PM
I8206 was determined to be DF27>Z195 by R.Rocca.

My new favorite ancient sample, then!

Webb
12-06-2019, 06:27 PM
My new favorite ancient sample, then!

R.Rocca also determined that sample I8209 was U152. I8209 was dated to around 450 to 400B.C while I8206 was dated to 300-100B.C. My notes say Greek? next to I8209 because he was found in the Greek portion of the Necropolis while I8206 was found in the Granada Necropolis.

From Reich's supplement:

"Empúries (Girona, Catalonia, Spain)

A first group of burials correspond to an area of the necropolis excavated in 2010 due to
the construction of a new reception building of the MAC- Empúries. This area, south of
the Greek town, was identified as 10-SU-28-D1. The southern part of this area was
occupied by tombs associated to the Greek town, mainly inhumations on the rock or
taking advantage of the substrate depressions. Although some of these tombs lacked grave
goods, the recovered materials in other tombs date the use of this necropolis during the
5th and 4th centuries BCE. We have analyzed 10 individuals from this area:"

This group included I8209.

Webb
12-06-2019, 06:32 PM
"Empuries (Granada Necropolis):

The second area, located quite far south from the limits of the Greek city, corresponds to
the so-called Granada Necropolis, partially excavated and published by Martín Almagro.
More recently, due to the urbanization of this area identified as SU-33-A4, preventive
archaeological excavations have described the sequence of use of this cemetery. Although
this space was used since the 5th century BCE, the burials analyzed here date to a period
between the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE, which is well documented in the new
excavations. They correspond to inhumations excavated in the rock or in the sand layer
above the rock, oriented west-east, often marked by a simple stone mound and containing
only ointment cases deposited next to the bodies. We analyzed five individuals from this
area:"

I8206

Ruderico
12-06-2019, 07:24 PM
I8206 was determined to be DF27>Z195 by R.Rocca.

I was referring to the autosomal profile, auniparental marker isn't important here

Webb
12-06-2019, 07:34 PM
I was referring to the autosomal profile, auniparental marker isn't important here

It could be important. With the little information provided in the supplemental about the burial itself, it is hard to determine if sample I8206 is a Gaul. But if one determined he was a Gaul, then one would have to assume that his Ydna signature could be considered Gaulish. Meaning, that it would be common to find Ydna DF27, in this case specifically Z195, common amongst Gaulish men.

Ruderico
12-06-2019, 08:48 PM
It could be important. With the little information provided in the supplemental about the burial itself, it is hard to determine if sample I8206 is a Gaul. But if one determined he was a Gaul, then one would have to assume that his Ydna signature could be considered Gaulish. Meaning, that it would be common to find Ydna DF27, in this case specifically Z195, common amongst Gaulish men.

Maybe, maybe not, Z195 is too old to be specifically Gallic. Both Celtiberian samples in Olalde were yDNA I*something*

alan
12-06-2019, 10:52 PM
Just for fun, here he is against the modern averages and a stranger who wandered in out of nowhere. :hat:


Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206
0.03406911 French_Brittany
0.03535686 English
0.03539862 Welsh
0.03577452 Dutch
0.03579558 JMcB
0.03719681 Norwegian
0.03722799 Irish
0.03732860 Scottish
0.03770647 English_Cornwall
0.03812733 Belgian
0.03880635 Orcadian
0.04049563 German
0.04120672 French_Paris
0.04138276 Shetlandic
0.04213115 Icelandic
0.04213166 French_Nord
0.04527623 Swedish
0.04626335 French_Alsace
0.04637824 Swiss_German
0.04931907 Austrian
0.05116860 French_Occitanie
0.05441030 French_Auvergne
0.05550067 Swiss_French
0.05654076 German_East
0.05740686 Czech

Looks genetically like a Briton given the closeness to both Brittany and Wales. My guess anyway is the pre-Roman Gauls varied in overall genetics but the Gauls between the Seine and Brittany may have been very like the non-Belgic Britons. The Belgae between the Seine and Loire may have differed a little due to being in a zone where central European influence had used the Rhine to extend a narrow finger of influence further from the later bronze age onwards. They might have a somewhat more central European tinge.

sktibo
12-06-2019, 11:14 PM
Looks genetically like a Briton given the closeness to both Brittany and Wales. My guess anyway is the pre-Roman Gauls varied in overall genetics but the Gauls between the Seine and Brittany may have been very like the non-Belgic Britons. The Belgae between the Seine and Loire may have differed a little due to being in a zone where central European influence had used the Rhine to extend a narrow finger of influence further from the later bronze age onwards. They might have a somewhat more central European tinge.

Definitely can't rule out the possibility of being a Briton given that it plots next to two of the Iron Age Briton samples. Do you have any thoughts about the DF27 Y-haplogroup for this one? General P312 mix or... ?

JonikW
12-06-2019, 11:24 PM
Looks genetically like a Briton given the closeness to both Brittany and Wales. My guess anyway is the pre-Roman Gauls varied in overall genetics but the Gauls between the Seine and Brittany may have been very like the non-Belgic Britons. The Belgae between the Seine and Loire may have differed a little due to being in a zone where central European influence had used the Rhine to extend a narrow finger of influence further from the later bronze age onwards. They might have a somewhat more central European tinge.

I agree, while for the same reasons the map for Drif 22 posted by Camulogène Rix at #50 here looks somewhat more Belgic. I think the most we can say about these two samples (without further evidence of how far the Belgae of Britain and the continent differed from each other and from the then Bretons, Cornish and Welsh) is that they could well be Britons or Gauls.

Finn
12-07-2019, 09:42 AM
It's impossible to tell without genuine Gaulish samples if my list is high "Gaulish" like. If I remember correctly, French samples from the Iron Age period (and also from different time periods) are coming soon. I would be suprised if these Gaulish samples from France are going to be similar to samples like Halberstadt_LBA, because Halberstadt_LBA is known to be very NW European like. I was also suprised that he was my closest match, because I was usually more 'southern' (genetically) than this sample in previous tests, although these distances should be not taken to literally. It just basically shows that I am similar to Bell Beakers, Bronze age and medieval samples(Vikings included).

The discussion about Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206 is interesting and it's obvious that he was originally from the north, but personally, I am not that close to this specific sample. My conclusion is not only based on the distance list, but also on recent PCA's/plots made by Ph2ter etc and Nmonte runs. And besides, there is no confirmation that this was sample was a Gaul. So I would rather wait for actual Gaul samples before we draw conclusions.

On second thought. I guess I was too impressed by the first result of the Skitbo model. But something went wrong with scaled and unscaled.

Seen the scientific papers about the Dutch gnome, it's not odd too suppose that South Dutch are more connected to Belgium, NW France, Rhineland. The North Dutch are connected to the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavian. That's really a fact.

See that perspective and seen you background mostly SW Dutch but also with an NE Dutch input, the "Gaulish" resemblance (read the resemblance with the Belgian, NW France, Rhineland gene pool) is in advance no wonder.

In my case Finn Mom is only Drenthe (specific Hondsrug) and Dad is a North Dutch amalgam (Groninger Veenkoloniën, so Groningen/Friesland/Drenthe).

The results of the 'revised' Skitbo model, unscaled, pen=0,001 (Huijbregts norm).

First I changed the Sigtuna results for Sweden Migration Ages (Rise174).

This gives the following result:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/hzs72ef4f1b.55.01.png

Than I put in the most western plotted samples of Sigtuna:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/ewbkr9lvta.50.00.png

Your Gaulish component looks mainly South Dutch, the Norwegian one from North Dutch?

Finn Mom and Finn Dad show the two 'faces' of the North Dutch, Dad more Westwards (Insular Celtic), Mom more Northeast Wards (Swedish like).

And of course this interpretive, anyone who thinks that we reach "exact" kind of results....no matter how many samples....will in the end be disappointed. So this kind of matter will always be interpretive.

firemonkey
12-07-2019, 10:39 AM
On second thought. I guess I was too impressed by the first result of the Skitbo model. But something went wrong with scaled and unscaled.

Seen the scientific papers about the Dutch gnome, it's not odd too suppose that South Dutch are more connected to Belgium, NW France, Rhineland. The North Dutch are connected to the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavian. That's really a fact.

See that perspective and seen you background mostly SW Dutch but also with an NE Dutch input, the "Gaulish" resemblance (read the resemblance with the Belgian, NW France, Rhineland gene pool) is in advance no wonder.

In my case Finn Mom is only Drenthe (specific Hondsrug) and Dad is a North Dutch amalgam (Groninger Veenkoloniën, so Groningen/Friesland/Drenthe).

The results of the 'revised' Skitbo model, unscaled, pen=0,001 (Huijbregts norm).

First I changed the Sigtuna results for Sweden Migration Ages (Rise174).

This gives the following result:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/hzs72ef4f1b.55.01.png

Than I put in the most western plotted samples of Sigtuna:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/ewbkr9lvta.50.00.png

Your Gaulish component looks mainly South Dutch, the Norwegian one from North Dutch?

Finn Mom and Finn Dad show the two 'faces' of the North Dutch, Dad more Westwards (Insular Celtic), Mom more Northeast Wards (Swedish like).

And of course this interpretive, anyone who thinks that we reach "exact" kind of results....no matter how many samples....will in the end be disappointed. So this kind of matter will always be interpretive.

Where can i find the 'revised' Skitbo model ?

Finn
12-07-2019, 11:20 AM
Where can i find the 'revised' Skitbo model ?

Hereby, and unscaled Firemonkey!

Insular_Celtic:ORE-A1,0.0117,0.0135,0.0155,0.0113,0.0122,0.0091,0.004 4,0.0058,0.0049,0.0019,-0.0065,0.0002,-0.0118,-0.0146,0.0197,-0.0033,-0.0245,0.0027,0.0009,0.0045,-0.0054,-0.0014,0.0024,0.0049,0.0023
Insular_Celtic:I0160,0.0114,0.0134,0.0158,0.0156,0 .0111,0.0084,0.0011,0.004,0.001,0.0021,-0.0047,0.0065,-0.0109,-0.0138,0.0147,-0.0046,-0.0121,0.0071,0.006,0.0025,0.0034,0.0013,0.0052,0. 0103,-0.0004
Insular_Celtic:SSG-A4,0.0107,0.0133,0.0182,0.0182,0.0102,0.0074,-0.002,0.003,0.0027,0.0057,-0.0014,0.004,-0.0126,-0.0214,0.0245,-0.0019,-0.0055,-0.0018,0.0117,0.004,0.0071,0.0066,0.0038,0.0169,0. 0089
Gaulish:I8206,0.011,0.0126,0.0143,0.0151,0.0133,0. 0048,0.0029,0.0027,0.0059,0.0078,-0.0011,-0.0035,-0.0102,-0.0131,0.0158,0.0086,0.009,0.0081,0.0031,0.0073,0. 0078,-0.0008,-0.0039,0.0138,0.0052
Gaulish:M1489,0.0113,0.0122,0.016,0.0125,0.009,0.0 083,0.0023,0.0014,0.0006,0.0059,0.0035,0.0049,-0.007,-0.0123,0.0149,0.0106,0.0078,-0.0036,0.0028,-0.0013,0.0013,0.0029,-0.0016,0.008,-0.0004
Gaulish:I0789,0.012,0.0123,0.0167,0.0149,0.0129,0. 006,0.0041,-0.0003,0.0028,-0.0006,-0.0055,0,0.0001,-0.0149,0.005,0.0157,0.0069,0.0004,0.0024,0.0061,0. 0011,0.0013,-0.0039,0.0084,0.0065
Viking_Norse:DAV-A9,0.0112,0.0123,0.0236,0.0207,0.014,0.0083,0.0021 ,0.0033,-0.0004,-0.0079,0.0026,0.0015,-0.0023,0.001,0.0114,0.0075,-0.0022,-0.0004,0.0015,0.0035,0.0014,0.001,-0.0043,0.0252,-0.0074
Viking_Norse:VDP-A5,0.0108,0.0126,0.0202,0.0193,0.0104,0.0074,0.002 4,0.0043,0.0027,-0.0057,0,0.0047,-0.0045,-0.0118,0.0182,0.0144,0.0112,0.0042,0.0007,0.0027,0 .0083,0.0058,0.0017,0.011,-0.0041
Italic:RMPR474b,0.0108,0.0149,0.0097,-0.0028,0.0118,-0.0009,0.001,-0.0015,0.0068,0.0153,-0.0022,0.0077,-0.0092,-0.003,-0.0027,0.0031,0.0037,0.008,0.0104,-0.0021,-0.0038,0.0043,-0.0004,-0.0026,-0.0022
Italic:RMPR475b,0.0065,0.0156,0.0037,-0.0146,0.0151,-0.0067,-0.0077,0.0019,0.0212,0.024,0.0022,0.0042,-0.0046,-0.0051,-0.0021,-0.0116,0.0006,-0.0062,-0.0071,-0.002,-0.0122,-0.0043,0.0001,-0.0077,0.0013
Sweden_MigrationAges:Rise174,0.0108,0.0122,0.0178, 0.0181,0.0134,0.0072,0.0025,0.0033,0.0014,-0.0053,0.0023,0.0013,-0.0047,0.0028,0.015,-0.0051,-0.0118,0.0051,0.0075,0.0002,0.0002,0.0023,0.002,0. 0095,0.0003
Viking_Swede:vik_grt035,0.0115,0.0134,0.0191,0.014 6,0.0119,0.0071,0.0008,0.0018,0.0047,-0.0003,-0.0048,0.001,-0.008,-0.008,0.0169,0.0018,-0.0013,0.0036,-0.0037,0,0.0051,0.002,0.0016,0.0059,0.0017
Viking_Swede:vik_gtm127,0.0122,0.0139,0.022,0.0193 ,0.0162,0.0058,0.0057,0.0064,0.0037,0.004,-0.0079,0.0229,-0.0072,-0.0122,0.0224,0.0004,-0.0224,0.0226,0.0067,0.0014,-0.0253,0.0003,0.0078,0.0048,0.003

firemonkey
12-07-2019, 11:30 AM
Target: Tim_G
Distance: 1.2239% / 0.01223941 | ADC: 1x
43.0 Insular_Celtic
40.8 Viking_Swede
16.2 Sweden_MigrationAges


Target: Tim_G_father
Distance: 1.4364% / 0.01436424 | ADC: 1x
46.4 Sweden_MigrationAges
32.0 Viking_Swede
21.6 Insular_Celtic


Target: Tim_Mother_test
Distance: 1.6836% / 0.01683586 | ADC: 1x
58.0 Insular_Celtic
42.0 Viking_Swede

Finn
12-07-2019, 11:32 AM
Target: Tim_G
Distance: 1.2239% / 0.01223941 | ADC: 1x
43.0 Insular_Celtic
40.8 Viking_Swede
16.2 Sweden_MigrationAges


Target: Tim_G_father
Distance: 1.4364% / 0.01436424 | ADC: 1x
46.4 Sweden_MigrationAges
32.0 Viking_Swede
21.6 Insular_Celtic


Target: Tim_Mother_test
Distance: 1.6836% / 0.01683586 | ADC: 1x
58.0 Insular_Celtic
42.0 Viking_Swede
can you try this with the free form runner and pen= 0,001?

firemonkey
12-07-2019, 11:48 AM
"sample": "Test1:Tim_G",
"fit": 1.1105,
"Insular_Celtic": 40.4,
"Viking_Swede": 28.8,
"Sweden_MigrationAges": 17.4,
"Viking_Norse": 10.4,
"Gaulish": 3,
"Italic": 0,


"sample": "Test1:Tim_G_father",
"fit": 1.4017,
"Sweden_MigrationAges": 39.2,
"Insular_Celtic": 29.6,
"Viking_Swede": 23.6,
"Viking_Norse": 5.6,
"Gaulish": 2,
"Italic": 0,


"sample": "Test1:Tim_Mother_test",
"fit": 1.4613,
"Insular_Celtic": 43.2,
"Viking_Swede": 31.4,
"Viking_Norse": 13.4,
"Gaulish": 9,
"Sweden_MigrationAges": 3,
"Italic": 0,

Jessie
12-07-2019, 11:52 AM
This is on the runner with default penalty.

"sample": "Test1:Jessie_unscaled",
"fit": 1.2477,
"Viking_Swede": 41.67,
"Insular_Celtic": 29.17,
"Viking_Norse": 28.33,
"Gaulish": 0.83,
"Italic": 0,
"Sweden_MigrationAges": 0,

Just wanted to see what my mother got out of interest.

"sample": "Test1:Bridget",
"fit": 1.1228,
"Insular_Celtic": 45.83,
"Viking_Swede": 28.33,
"Viking_Norse": 15,
"Sweden_MigrationAges": 9.17,
"Gaulish": 1.67,
"Italic": 0,

FionnSneachta
12-07-2019, 01:04 PM
This is me with the revised model using Vahuduo:

Target: MKelly
Distance: 1.5386% / 0.01538609
60.2 Insular_Celtic
32.6 Sweden_MigrationAges
7.2 Viking_Swede

Distance to: MKelly
0.01831666 Insular_Celtic:I0160
0.02328712 Sweden_MigrationAges:Rise174
0.02404454 Insular_Celtic:ORE-A1
0.02696553 Viking_Swede:vik_grt035
0.02702092 Insular_Celtic:SSG-A4
0.03676547 Viking_Norse:DAV-A9
0.03881185 Gaulish:M1489
0.04023096 Viking_Norse:VDP-A5
0.04075672 Gaulish:I8206
0.04268407 Viking_Swede:vik_gtm127
0.04370309 Gaulish:I0789
0.05192620 Italic:RMPR474b
0.07132272 Italic:RMPR475b

Garimund
12-07-2019, 01:38 PM
Why were the western shifted Viking samples added? Wouldn’t this further make everything less clear? I ran mine and I came out around half Viking and I’m always very Brittonic looking.

JMcB
12-07-2019, 05:33 PM
Why were the western shifted Viking samples added? Wouldn’t this further make everything less clear? I ran mine and I came out around half Viking and I’m always very Brittonic looking.

With and without vic_grt035 who is one of the western shifted Vikings

JMcB_default
Fit: 0.9832

Viking_Swede: 27.4
Insular_Celtic: 26
Gaulish: 21
Italic: 13.8
Sweden_MigrationAges: 11.4
Viking_Norse: 0.4


JMcB_default
Fit: 1.003

Insular_Celtic: 37.2
Gaulish: 25.4
Italic: 16.8
Sweden_MigrationAges: 13.8
Viking_Norse: 6.8,
Viking_Swede: 0



Distance to: SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035

0.01179485 Welsh
0.01184073 French_Brittany
0.01202979 Orcadian
0.01269874 Scottish
0.01286039 Irish
0.01328192 Norwegian
0.01378969 English
0.01410493 Icelandic
0.01425242 Dutch
0.01493858 Swedish
0.01496530 English_Cornwall
0.01529710 Shetlandic
0.01544056 Belgian
0.01652196 German
0.01756742 French_Nord
0.01870417 French_Paris
0.01921081 French_Alsace
0.02095782 Swiss_German
0.02271638 French_Occitanie
0.02414673 French_Auvergne
0.02490532 Swiss_French
0.02492846 Austrian
0.02569952 French_Provence
0.02582813 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02683198 German_East

Radboud
12-07-2019, 07:47 PM
On second thought. I guess I was too impressed by the first result of the Skitbo model. But something went wrong with scaled and unscaled.

Seen the scientific papers about the Dutch gnome, it's not odd too suppose that South Dutch are more connected to Belgium, NW France, Rhineland. The North Dutch are connected to the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavian. That's really a fact.

See that perspective and seen you background mostly SW Dutch but also with an NE Dutch input, the "Gaulish" resemblance (read the resemblance with the Belgian, NW France, Rhineland gene pool) is in advance no wonder.

In my case Finn Mom is only Drenthe (specific Hondsrug) and Dad is a North Dutch amalgam (Groninger Veenkoloniën, so Groningen/Friesland/Drenthe).

The results of the 'revised' Skitbo model, unscaled, pen=0,001 (Huijbregts norm).

First I changed the Sigtuna results for Sweden Migration Ages (Rise174).

This gives the following result:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/hzs72ef4f1b.55.01.png

Than I put in the most western plotted samples of Sigtuna:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/ewbkr9lvta.50.00.png

Your Gaulish component looks mainly South Dutch, the Norwegian one from North Dutch?

Finn Mom and Finn Dad show the two 'faces' of the North Dutch, Dad more Westwards (Insular Celtic), Mom more Northeast Wards (Swedish like).

And of course this interpretive, anyone who thinks that we reach "exact" kind of results....no matter how many samples....will in the end be disappointed. So this kind of matter will always be interpretive.

Sktibo's model looks cool sure, but the 'Gaulish' component is based on I8206, England_IA:M1489 and England_IA:I0789. There is no guarantee that these samples were Gauls/Belgae. All of them could also have been Britons. Also, Sktibo pointed out that we should take this model with some salt. Like I said before, we really need samples from Iron Age France (Belgae samples are also welcome) in order to estimate solid Gaulish admixture. Otherwise I don't find these results to be trustworthy.

Btw, I am not mostly SW dutch: I have minor admixture from Zeeland and I have only a few very distant ancestors from North-Brabant and Limburg.

sktibo
12-07-2019, 08:09 PM
Sktibo's model looks cool sure, but the 'Gaulish' component is based on I8206, England_IA:M1489 and England_IA:I0789. There is no guarantee that these samples were Gauls/Belgae. All of them could also have been Britons. Also, Sktibo pointed out that we should take this model with some salt. Like I said before, we really need samples from Iron Age France (Belgae samples are also welcome) in order to estimate solid Gaulish admixture. Otherwise I don't find these results to be trustworthy.

Btw, I am not mostly SW dutch: I have minor admixture from Zeeland and I have only a few very distant ancestors from North-Brabant and Limburg.

Exactly, but if I may take the opportunity to add a recap / summary to your excellent post:

The labeling of these three samples of Gauls is speculative, and it's based on the distance between the two Britons who are more continental-shifted when plotted and the fact that the Empuries sample which is northern European plots in almost the exact same space as these two Britons. Archaeological finds and written accounts as discussed early in this thread suggest that during the Iron Age, many Gauls migrated to Britain, establishing Gaulish culture and possibly genetics there. The Empuries sample comes from a location where Gauls apparently had lived, meaning that based on the location of this sample and it's genetic position the possibility of it being a Gaul is possible.
The Iron Age Briton samples we have are spread out over a surprisingly large space on these plots, with one being close to the Gaelic Icelandic sample OREA1, two being close to the Empuries sample, and one being in between these two.
In conclusion, we see that it is not unreasonable to speculate that the Empuries sample and the two Britons may have been Gauls. We are of course unable to prove this speculation as true, but it seems to me that this possibility is worthy of our consideration, and I look forward to the day when we can either confirm the truth of this speculation or confirm it as false when we can compare these samples to samples which we know without doubt were ancient Gauls. Of course, it would be much more exciting if these were indeed Gauls, but the truth of the situation often proves to be disappointing in my opinion.

Finn
12-07-2019, 08:26 PM
Sktibo's model looks cool sure, but the 'Gaulish' component is based on I8206, England_IA:M1489 and England_IA:I0789. There is no guarantee that these samples were Gauls/Belgae. All of them could also have been Britons. Also, Sktibo pointed out that we should take this model with some salt. Like I said before, we really need samples from Iron Age France (Belgae samples are also welcome) in order to estimate solid Gaulish admixture. Otherwise I don't find these results to be trustworthy.

Btw, I am not mostly SW dutch: I have minor admixture from Zeeland and I have only a few very distant ancestors from North-Brabant and Limburg.

And in addition to Skitbo, I made some ad. I only took the Iberian sample (by it's own name) and besides that I took the samples of Viking Sigtuna that were most close to NW Europeans.
In your case this makes not a hell of a lot difference....you are (besides Viking Norse!) more SW Euro Iron age like ;)

https://www.mupload.nl/img/p2znvzne8yq.20.54.png

Somehow it convinces me stronger that indeed there are some kind of differentiated gene pools in the Dutch case a Northern one more connected with the North German Plain/ Southern Scandinavia (and within this a Western and an Eastern orientation) and a Southern one more connected with core West-Europe (South Dutch, Belgium, Rhineland, NW France).

May be Zuid-Holland has something hybrid between South Dutch and North Dutch? I don't know may be you can give it a shot.....I only see that's it's pretty differentiated from the outmost North Dutch one (Groningen/Friesland/Drenthe). Stays fascinating!

ArmandoR1b
12-07-2019, 10:09 PM
For the paper it was in, I believe it's this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6436108/

Looks like he's listed as R1b1a1a2a1a2. The Derived SNPs are in Table S4.

To add to that, using SNP names instead of longhand names that change too often, I8206 is positive for P312 and the BAM shows him ancestral for Z195 which contradicts a derived read for the downstream SNP of L165 which could be due to deamination since L165 is a C>T mutation. I8206 does not have a read for DF27, U152, L21, L2, DF19, and DF99. So we don't know, for sure, if he is positive for a subclade of P312 or if he is negative for all known subclades of P312.

sktibo
12-07-2019, 10:11 PM
To add to that, using SNP names instead of longhand names that change too often, I8206 is positive for P312 and the BAM shows him ancestral for Z195 which contradicts a derived read for the downstream SNP of L165 which could be due to deamination since L165 is a C>T mutation. I8206 does not have a read for DF27, U152, L21, L2, DF19, and DF99. So we don't know, for sure, if he is positive for a subclade of P312 or if he is negative for all known subclades of P312.

Appreciate the clarification on that Armando! Thank you.

Webb
12-08-2019, 12:24 AM
To add to that, using SNP names instead of longhand names that change too often, I8206 is positive for P312 and the BAM shows him ancestral for Z195 which contradicts a derived read for the downstream SNP of L165 which could be due to deamination since L165 is a C>T mutation. I8206 does not have a read for DF27, U152, L21, L2, DF19, and DF99. So we don't know, for sure, if he is positive for a subclade of P312 or if he is negative for all known subclades of P312.

Thanks. I remember R.Rocca originally made the call for L165 then later stated it wasn’t reliable, but I thought he sample was still Z195. I will edit my notes.

ArmandoR1b
12-08-2019, 01:45 AM
Thanks. I remember R.Rocca originally made the call for L165 then later stated it wasn’t reliable, but I thought he sample was still Z195. I will edit my notes.

I found the comment by R.Rocca (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16682-The-genomic-history-of-the-Iberian-Peninsula-over-the-past-8000-years&p=563517&viewfull=1#post563517) that you mentioned. He did state that I8206 is negative for upstream Z195. Since it was L165 you were focused on I can understand why your notes didn't mention Z195.

jstephan
12-08-2019, 06:04 PM
Looks genetically like a Briton given the closeness to both Brittany and Wales. My guess anyway is the pre-Roman Gauls varied in overall genetics but the Gauls between the Seine and Brittany may have been very like the non-Belgic Britons. The Belgae between the Seine and Loire may have differed a little due to being in a zone where central European influence had used the Rhine to extend a narrow finger of influence further from the later bronze age onwards. They might have a somewhat more central European tinge.

@Alan, hopefully what I am going to write is not too much off-topic but knowing your great knowledge about the Celtic culture and the so-called Celts, it's very tempting to ask for your opinion directly here.

According to you, are modern Armoricans the result of massive migrations from the Isles (Wales & Cornwall’s mainly) during the 4th-5th centuries or simply the result of similar groups of bell beakers settling down both sides of the English channel during the Bronze age, or third possibility a mix of these 2 theories ? G25 results are simply undeniable regarding the genetic proximity both sides, from Brest to Nantes or Cherbourg, most of us have British populations appearing in our top list, but why is that exactly?

There are several cases of Armoricans on this forum, including myself, the French community is even blaming us for being over-represented :) But really I think, the reason for this are all these questions that are still unclear.

JonikW
12-08-2019, 08:15 PM
@Alan, hopefully what I am going to write is not too much off-topic but knowing your great knowledge about the Celtic culture and the so-called Celts, it's very tempting to ask for your opinion directly here.

According to you, are modern Armoricans the result of massive migrations from the Isles (Wales & Cornwall’s mainly) during the 4th-5th centuries or simply the result of similar groups of bell beakers settling down both sides of the English channel during the Bronze age, or third possibility a mix of these 2 theories ? G25 results are simply undeniable regarding the genetic proximity both sides, from Brest to Nantes or Cherbourg, most of us have British populations appearing in our top list, but why is that exactly?

There are several cases of Armoricans on this forum, including myself, the French community is even blaming us for being over-represented :) But really I think, the reason for this are all these questions that are still unclear.

I'd also love to hear Alan's views.
Cunliffe is one of the few archaeologists I trust because of his vast experience in the field and openness to the idea of migration at a time when this was out of favour. He sees the movement from Cornwall, Devon and South Wales as a full-blown "folk movement" by the mid fifth century, decades after it may have started. He points out that the Plou, Lan and Tre place names in western and northern Armorica have long been argued as reflecting settlements of Britons (look at any map of Wales or Cornwall to see why). But he says some of the Plou names compounded with the names of saints may date to the pre-migration period, according to recent scholarship. Likewise -ac suffixed place names may also reflect the survival of the Gaulish language.

Cunliffe also points out that even the somewhat controversial Falc'hun, who disagreed with the pro-British theories, accepted the role of the British in strengthening the Celtic spoken in the north and west of Brittany.
He sums up: "These issues will remain at the centre of scholarly debate for some time to come. There is nothing, however, inherently unlikely in the survival of Celtic in Armorica from pre-Roman times, but the close relationship between Armorica and south-western Britain throughout the Late Iron Age and Roman period may well have been sufficient to have maintained a degree of parallel development in the languages of the two peninsulas during the millennium before the British migration."

I agree with your G25 observations, and this works both ways of course. Brittany ranks highly for me. I always seem to say this but I suspect the truth lies between the two extremes. So the Armoricans were bolstered to a considerable extent by a very similar population group with a very similar language.
Another interest of mine is the early saints. You only have to dip into their lives to realise very quickly that Cornwall, South Wales and Brittany were effectively one country in the sixth century.

jstephan
12-08-2019, 08:39 PM
I'd also love to hear Alan's views.
Cunliffe is one of the few archaeologists I trust because of his vast experience in the field and openness to the idea of migration at a time when this was out of favour. He sees the movement from Cornwall, Devon and South Wales as a full-blown "folk movement" by the mid fifth century, decades after it may have started. He points out that the Plou, Lan and Tre place names in western and northern Armorica have long been argued as reflecting settlements of Britons (look at any map of Wales or Cornwall to see why). But he says some of the Plou names compounded with the names of saints may date to the pre-migration period, according to recent scholarship. Likewise -ac suffixed place names may also reflect the survival of the Gaulish language.

Cunliffe also points out that even the somewhat controversial Falc'hun, who disagreed with the pro-British theories, accepted the role of the British in strengthening the Celtic spoken in the north and west of Brittany.
He sums up: "These issues will remain at the centre of scholarly debate for some time to come. There is nothing, however, inherently unlikely in the survival of Celtic in Armorica from pre-Roman times, but the close relationship between Armorica and south-western Britain throughout the Late Iron Age and Roman period may well have been sufficient to have maintained a degree of parallel development in the languages of the two peninsulas during the millennium before the British migration."

I agree with your G25 observations, and this works both ways of course. Brittany ranks highly for me. I always seem to say this but I suspect the truth lies between the two extremes. So the Armoricans were bolstered to a considerable extent by a very similar population group with a very similar language.
Another interest of mine is the early saints. You only have to dip into their lives to realise very quickly that Cornwall, South Wales and Brittany were effectively one country in the sixth century.

Thanks for this really JonikW, my paternal line comes from a small village in North Finistère called Saint-Vougay, that was founded by an Irish Saint, and where was found a parchment dating from the 11th century called le "missel de Saint-Vougay", which refers to the 7 saints founders of Brittany.

JonikW
12-08-2019, 09:37 PM
Thanks for this really JonikW, my paternal line comes from a small village in North Finistère called Saint-Vougay, that was founded by an Irish Saint, and where was found a parchment dating from the 11th century called le "missel de Saint-Vougay", which refers to the 7 saints founders of Brittany.

Thanks jstephan. I should have mentioned the Irish because they were moving around the same seaboard and in and out of the same lands, as you point out. One of the monastic centres of learning in Wales was at Llanbadarn Fawr, which had close links with Ireland, as highlighted by Elizabeth Rees in her fascinating Celtic Saints of Wales.

Baring-Gould, a Victorian who is still cited in almost any good book on the period, points out in particular that Ireland's St Bridget was popular in Brittany as in other Celtic lands. Kieran of Saigir was also venerated as Kerian as well as under the P Celtic or Brythonic name Peran. St Brendan and St Senan of Inniscathy are among others who left their mark in Brittany.

How far do these Irish saints imply a wider population movement from that country? The saints often followed their countrymen and women and attended to their spiritual needs, so some level of Irish migration to Brittany seems likely as was the case with Wales and Cornwall where we have the additional evidence of ogham stones to show their presence.

jstephan
12-09-2019, 01:12 AM
Thanks jstephan. I should have mentioned the Irish because they were moving around the same seaboard and in and out of the same lands, as you point out. One of the monastic centres of learning in Wales was at Llanbadarn Fawr, which had close links with Ireland, as highlighted by Elizabeth Rees in her fascinating Celtic Saints of Wales.

Baring-Gould, a Victorian who is still cited in almost any good book on the period, points out in particular that Ireland's St Bridget was popular in Brittany as in other Celtic lands. Kieran of Saigir was also venerated as Kerian as well as under the P Celtic or Brythonic name Peran. St Brendan and St Senan of Inniscathy are among others who left their mark in Brittany.

How far do these Irish saints imply a wider population movement from that country? The saints often followed their countrymen and women and attended to their spiritual needs, so some level of Irish migration to Brittany seems likely as was the case with Wales and Cornwall where we have the additional evidence of ogham stones to show their presence.

Double post.

jstephan
12-09-2019, 01:13 AM
Thanks jstephan. I should have mentioned the Irish because they were moving around the same seaboard and in and out of the same lands, as you point out. One of the monastic centres of learning in Wales was at Llanbadarn Fawr, which had close links with Ireland, as highlighted by Elizabeth Rees in her fascinating Celtic Saints of Wales.

Baring-Gould, a Victorian who is still cited in almost any good book on the period, points out in particular that Ireland's St Bridget was popular in Brittany as in other Celtic lands. Kieran of Saigir was also venerated as Kerian as well as under the P Celtic or Brythonic name Peran. St Brendan and St Senan of Inniscathy are among others who left their mark in Brittany.

How far do these Irish saints imply a wider population movement from that country? The saints often followed their countrymen and women and attended to their spiritual needs, so some level of Irish migration to Brittany seems likely as was the case with Wales and Cornwall where we have the additional evidence of ogham stones to show their presence.

Amazing input, thanks again JonikW. It's really fascinating to be on the edge to resolve all the mystery behind all these stories that almost sound like tales, using Genetics. From what I noticed amongst others Armoricans that have been tested through G25 is that a majority of them seem closer to Cornish or South Eastern English, some to Irish, others to Welsh, and some even to Scottish, I am not sure how to interpret this really though.

jstephan
12-11-2019, 12:29 AM
Thanks jstephan. I should have mentioned the Irish because they were moving around the same seaboard and in and out of the same lands, as you point out. One of the monastic centres of learning in Wales was at Llanbadarn Fawr, which had close links with Ireland, as highlighted by Elizabeth Rees in her fascinating Celtic Saints of Wales.

Baring-Gould, a Victorian who is still cited in almost any good book on the period, points out in particular that Ireland's St Bridget was popular in Brittany as in other Celtic lands. Kieran of Saigir was also venerated as Kerian as well as under the P Celtic or Brythonic name Peran. St Brendan and St Senan of Inniscathy are among others who left their mark in Brittany.

How far do these Irish saints imply a wider population movement from that country? The saints often followed their countrymen and women and attended to their spiritual needs, so some level of Irish migration to Brittany seems likely as was the case with Wales and Cornwall where we have the additional evidence of ogham stones to show their presence.

JonikW, in addition to our discussion of the other day regarding the Saints, I found that article in English (not sure how reliable it is though) : http://omniumsanctorumhiberniae.blogspot.com/2015/06/saint-vouga-of-carn-june-15.html . So, that Saint, that supposedly was the founder of the village where my father's ancestors are from, was an Irish Bishop from Armagh in Northern Ireland, he supposedly founded the village during the 6th century, there is even some part of the article mentioning his arrival with many other men : The arrival of St. Vouga, with many other holy men, who came from Great Britain, into Brittany, has been ascribed to before 523, while Hormisdas was Pope, while Justin Augustus presided over the Empire. I have no idea how common these things were at that period, but this could be a hint for what we see today with the G25, and this is just a little example.

JonikW
12-11-2019, 01:27 AM
JonikW, in addition to our discussion of the other day regarding the Saints, I found that article in English (not sure how reliable it is though) : http://omniumsanctorumhiberniae.blogspot.com/2015/06/saint-vouga-of-carn-june-15.html . So, that Saint, that supposedly was the founder of the village where my father's ancestors are from, was an Irish Bishop from Armagh in Northern Ireland, he supposedly founded the village during the 6th century, there is even some part of the article mentioning his arrival with many other men : The arrival of St. Vouga, with many other holy men, who came from Great Britain, into Brittany, has been ascribed to before 523, while Hormisdas was Pope, while Justin Augustus presided over the Empire. I have no idea how common these things were at that period, but this could be a hint for what we see today with the G25, and this is just a little example.

I personally think if the G25 is as informative as I think it is, the Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Cornish signals we're seeing in modern Bretons do reflect the documented movements to the Continent in the age of the saints (and their secular counterparts) after the Roman retreat.

jstephan
12-11-2019, 01:44 AM
I guess so yes, thanks again.

Webb
12-11-2019, 03:13 PM
I know that sample I8206 has been used for some time as a proxy for a Gaul. Has anybody run anything on sample I3324 to see how this sample plots? I ask because this sample was found at Puig de Sant Andreu. It is being assumed this sample was possibly a Gallic prisoner of war as it was among around 40 crushed skulls found in a mass pit. There was a presentation about this sight at Oxford.

Puig de Sant Andreu (Ullastret): Gallic veterans in a Greco-Iberian city?
Fernando López Sánchez
F. López Sánchez”

It was a presentation held at a workshop at Wolfson Auditorium, Oxford, in January 2017.

Ruderico
12-11-2019, 03:36 PM
I know that sample I8206 has been used for some time as a proxy for a Gaul. Has anybody run anything on sample I3324 to see how this sample plots? I ask because this sample was found at Puig de Sant Andreu. It is being assumed this sample was possibly a Gallic prisoner of war as it was among around 40 crushed skulls found in a mass pit. There was a presentation about this sight at Oxford.

Puig de Sant Andreu (Ullastret): Gallic veterans in a Greco-Iberian city?
Fernando López Sánchez
F. López Sánchez”

It was a presentation held at a workshop at Wolfson Auditorium, Oxford, in January 2017.

I3324 is another regular local, he is similar to the Celtiberian samples which likely explains his fate

Dewsloth
12-11-2019, 04:28 PM
Thanks jstephan. I should have mentioned the Irish because they were moving around the same seaboard and in and out of the same lands, as you point out. One of the monastic centres of learning in Wales was at Llanbadarn Fawr, which had close links with Ireland, as highlighted by Elizabeth Rees in her fascinating Celtic Saints of Wales.

Baring-Gould, a Victorian who is still cited in almost any good book on the period, points out in particular that Ireland's St Bridget was popular in Brittany as in other Celtic lands. Kieran of Saigir was also venerated as Kerian as well as under the P Celtic or Brythonic name Peran. St Brendan and St Senan of Inniscathy are among others who left their mark in Brittany.

How far do these Irish saints imply a wider population movement from that country? The saints often followed their countrymen and women and attended to their spiritual needs, so some level of Irish migration to Brittany seems likely as was the case with Wales and Cornwall where we have the additional evidence of ogham stones to show their presence.

They traveled and proselytized even further east than that:


According to Irish sources, Kilian was born to noble parents in approximately the year 640 in Cloughballybeg,[1] near Mullagh, County Cavan, Ireland. Some records state that Kilian served as a monk in the celebrated monastery at Hy, Hy being an early name for what was later known as Iona.[2] He began his education in Rosscarbery (the School of Ross), County Cork and completed it in Tuosist in County Kerry.

In the summer of 686 Kilian, with eleven companions, travelled through Gaul to Rome to receive missionary faculties from the pope, arriving in late autumn and meeting with Pope Conon.[3] From there they traveled to the castle of Würzburg, inhabited by the Thuringian (Frankish) Duke Gozbert, who was, like his people, still pagan.[2]

The original group separated — some departing to seek other fields of missionary work, while St. Kilian with two companions, the priest Colmán (also called Colonan or Kolonat) and the deacon Totnan, remained in Würzburg. Kilian made this town as the base of his activity, which extended over an ever-increasing area in East Franconia and Thuringia, and converted Duke Gozbert with a large part of his subjects to Christianity.[2]

Death
Kilian told the Duke that he was in violation of sacred scripture by being married to his brother's widow, Geilana. When Geilana, whom Kilian had failed to convert to Christianity, heard of Kilian's words against her marriage, she was so angry that, in the absence of the duke, she had her soldiers sent to the main square of Würzburg, where Kilian and his colleagues were preaching, and had him beheaded, along with two of his companions, Colmán and Totnan.[2]

Veneration

Relic of Kilian, Colman and Totnan
Saint Burchard, appointed by Boniface as the first bishop of Würzburg, built a cathedral on the spot where the martyrs were said to have met their deaths and had their relics unearthed and buried within a vault of that cathedral church.[2]

Their skulls, inlaid with precious stones, have been preserved to this day. On St Kilian's day, a glass case containing the three skulls is removed from a crypt, paraded through the streets before large crowds, and put on display in Würzburg Cathedral (dedicated to Kilian). Statues of these three saints (among others) line the famous Saints' Bridge across the River Main.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Kilian

^^ I'm pretty sure this is how "Killian" becomes a German surname -- not through ancestry but pagans taking the saint's name as they are baptized -- there are a number of DF19 Killians, and not all on the same subclade branch.

Webb
12-11-2019, 04:52 PM
They traveled and proselytized even further east than that:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Kilian

^^ I'm pretty sure this is how "Killian" becomes a German surname -- not through ancestry but pagans taking the saint's name as they are baptized -- there are a number of DF19 Killians, and not all on the same subclade branch.

There are quite a few unrelated German DF27 Killian's as well.

Dewsloth
12-11-2019, 05:11 PM
Also note the other two men mentioned in the quote above besides those martyred with Kilian:


Saint Boniface (Latin: Bonifatius; c. 675[2] – 5 June 754 AD), born Winfrid (also spelled Winifred, Wynfrith, Winfrith or Wynfryth) in the Devon town of Crediton, England, was a leading figure in the Anglo-Saxon mission to the Germanic parts of the Frankish Empire during the 8th century. He organised significant foundations of the Catholic Church in Germany and was made archbishop of Mainz by Pope Gregory III. He was martyred in Frisia in 754, along with 52 others, and his remains were returned to Fulda, where they rest in a sarcophagus which became a site of pilgrimage. Boniface's life and death as well as his work became widely known, there being a wealth of material available—a number of vitae, especially the near-contemporary Vita Bonifatii auctore Willibaldi, legal documents, possibly some sermons, and above all his correspondence. He became the patron saint of Germania, known as the "Apostle of the Germans". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Boniface


Burchard of Würzburg (in German Burkard or Burkhard) was an Anglo-Saxon missionary who became the first Bishop of Würzburg (741–754).

He was an Anglo-Saxon who left England after the death of his parents and joined Boniface in his missionary labors, some time after 732. When Boniface organized bishoprics in Middle Germany, he placed Burchard over that of Würzburg; his consecration can not have occurred later than the summer of 741, since in the autumn of that year, he was documented as officiating as a bishop at the consecration of Willibald of Eichstädt.[1]

Pope Zachary confirmed the new bishopric in 743. Burchard appears again as a member of the first German council in 742, and as an envoy to Rome from Boniface in 748. With Fulrad of Saint-Denis, he brought to Zachary the famous question of Pepin, whose answer was supposed to justify the assumption of regal power by the Carolingians.[1]

In 751, he resigned his see in favor of Megingoz, a Benedictine monk from St. Peter's Abbey in Fritzlar,[2] and retired to a life of solitude. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burchard_of_W%C3%BCrzburg

Which leads us to Willibald:

Saint Willibald (Latin: Willibaldus; c. 700 – c.787) was an 8th-century bishop of Eichstätt in Bavaria.

Information about his life is largely drawn from the Hodoeporicon (itinerary) of Saint Willibald, a text written in the 8th century by Huneberc, an Anglo-Saxon nun from Heidenheim am Hahnenkamm who knew Willibald and his brother personally.[1] The text of the Hodoeporicon was dictated to Huneberc by Willibald shortly before he died.

Willibald's father was Richard the Pilgrim, and his mother Wuna of Wessex. His brother was Winibald and his sister was Saint Walburga.[2]

Today Willibald is regarded as one of the most travelled Anglo-Saxons of his time, and some argue that he was the first known Englishman to visit the Holy Land.[3] His shrine is at the Eichstätt Cathedral in Germany, where his body and relics from his journeys are preserved.

His feast day is the 7th of June.

Early life
Willibald was born in Wessex on 21 October around the year 700. His mother Wuna of Wessex was a sister of Saint Boniface and his father was a chieftain of Wessex who came to be known by the name of Richard. At the age of three, Willibald suffered from a violent illness. His parents prayed to God, vowing to commit Willibald to a monastic life if he was to be spared. Willibald survived and at the age of five entered the Benedictine monastery at Waldheim) and was educated by Abbot Egwald.[4] At the monastery he became accustomed to the Irish and Anglo-Saxon monastic ideal of peregrinatio religiosa, or pious rootlessness.[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willibald

^^Seems to be quite the Isles effort to convert the ̶G̶e̶r̶m̶a̶n̶s̶/̶F̶r̶i̶s̶i̶a̶n̶s̶,̶ ̶m̶a̶y̶b̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶a̶g̶a̶n̶ ̶p̶a̶r̶t̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶G̶a̶u̶l̶,̶ ̶s̶u̶c̶h̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶e̶x̶i̶s̶t̶e̶d̶ Franks?

JMcB
12-11-2019, 05:48 PM
I know that sample I8206 has been used for some time as a proxy for a Gaul. Has anybody run anything on sample I3324 to see how this sample plots? I ask because this sample was found at Puig de Sant Andreu. It is being assumed this sample was possibly a Gallic prisoner of war as it was among around 40 crushed skulls found in a mass pit. There was a presentation about this sight at Oxford.

Puig de Sant Andreu (Ullastret): Gallic veterans in a Greco-Iberian city?
Fernando López Sánchez
F. López Sánchez”

It was a presentation held at a workshop at Wolfson Auditorium, Oxford, in January 2017.

For the fun of it, I tried using 13324 (Gaulish_IA) and got the following:


JMcB_scaled_scaled
1000 cycles
500 batches

Fit 1.3978

Roman_Britons: 55.6
DEU_MA: 18.6
England_Saxon: 10.2
Viking_Age_Gaelic: 6.6
Gaulish_IA: 5.8
Italy_MA_o1: 3.2
Viking_Age_Norse: 0


The results look pretty similar using 18206. Although, the distance is better with 13324


JMcB_scaled_default
Fit: 1.4834

Roman_Britons: 55.2
DEU_MA: 18.4
England_Saxon: 10
Viking_Age_Gaelic: 6.6
Gaulish_Empuries: 6.2
Italy_MA_o1: 3.6
Viking_Age_Norse: 0


I also plotted both samples on Vahaduo


35264

Dewsloth
12-11-2019, 06:37 PM
I have no idea what this might mean, but adding Iberia IA I3324 to the mix in Vahaduo changed results for R31, but not Dad:

With:
Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31unscaled
Distance: 1.1521% / 0.01152126
52.4 Viking_Norse
31.0 Gaulish
12.2 Iberia_East_IA
2.8 Italic
1.6 Insular_Celtic

Target: DewslothDad_Unscaled
Distance: 0.8005% / 0.00800462
34.4 Italic
23.4 Viking_Swede
19.8 Gaulish
13.0 Viking_Norse
9.4 Insular_Celtic

Without:
Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31unscaled
Distance: 1.1925% / 0.01192539
54.4 Viking_Norse
34.0 Gaulish
11.6 Italic

Target: DewslothDad_Unscaled
Distance: 0.8005% / 0.00800462
34.4 Italic
23.4 Viking_Swede
19.8 Gaulish
13.0 Viking_Norse
9.4 Insular_Celtic

Kellebel
12-11-2019, 10:45 PM
And in addition to Skitbo, I made some ad. I only took the Iberian sample (by it's own name) and besides that I took the samples of Viking Sigtuna that were most close to NW Europeans.
In your case this makes not a hell of a lot difference....you are (besides Viking Norse!) more SW Euro Iron age like ;)

https://www.mupload.nl/img/p2znvzne8yq.20.54.png

Somehow it convinces me stronger that indeed there are some kind of differentiated gene pools in the Dutch case a Northern one more connected with the North German Plain/ Southern Scandinavia (and within this a Western and an Eastern orientation) and a Southern one more connected with core West-Europe (South Dutch, Belgium, Rhineland, NW France).

May be Zuid-Holland has something hybrid between South Dutch and North Dutch? I don't know may be you can give it a shot.....I only see that's it's pretty differentiated from the outmost North Dutch one (Groningen/Friesland/Drenthe). Stays fascinating!

This is indeed the case, remember the study by Abdellaoui?

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fejhg.2013.48/MediaObjects/41431_2013_Article_BFejhg201348_Fig1_HTML.jpg

Kellebel
12-11-2019, 11:18 PM
Our results with the original, revised model:

Target: Kellebel
Distance: 0.8262% / 0.00826246
42.2 Gaulish
35.2 Insular_Celtic
13.4 Italic
9.2 Viking_Norse

Target: Kae
Distance: 0.6980% / 0.00698010
47.0 Insular_Celtic
30.8 Viking_Norse
11.8 Sweden_MigrationAges
8.6 Italic
1.8 Gaulish

Target: Ellebel
Distance: 0.8870% / 0.00886970
37.0 Insular_Celtic
25.4 Italic
19.0 Gaulish
11.2 Viking_Swede
7.4 Sweden_MigrationAges

Target: Pao
Distance: 0.8061% / 0.00806146
35.4 Viking_Swede
25.2 Gaulish
25.2 Italic
14.2 Insular_Celtic

Kae is Northwestern Dutch and Pao is Southeastern Dutch. But tbh I don't see any logic in these results.

The sample mentioned by Camu is quite interesting, as it's the closest to my Southern Limburgish grandmother, so perhaps Belgae indeed, maybe partly?:

Distance to: Kellebel_scaled
0.03159575 England_Roman:6DT22

Distance to: Kae_scaled
0.03308519 England_Roman:6DT22

Distance to: Ellebel_scaled
0.03573357 England_Roman:6DT22

Distance to: Pao_scaled
0.02749510 England_Roman:6DT22

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35176&d=1575583156
https://i.imgur.com/2IyIzU4.png

JonikW
12-11-2019, 11:34 PM
They traveled and proselytized even further east than that:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Kilian

^^ I'm pretty sure this is how "Killian" becomes a German surname -- not through ancestry but pagans taking the saint's name as they are baptized -- there are a number of DF19 Killians, and not all on the same subclade branch.

They did travel and preach further east but not to minister as part of a wider settlement of people from the Isles. Those were lone missionaries into pagan lands. St Walpurga of Walpurgis Night fame is one notable Anglo-Saxon figure who left a mark in modern folklore.

Phoebe Watts
12-13-2019, 12:36 PM
Another interest of mine is the early saints. You only have to dip into their lives to realise very quickly that Cornwall, South Wales and Brittany were effectively one country in the sixth century.

Sorry, late to this discussion and drifting off topic.

JonikW - Just struck by your reference to South Wales here and wondering if I should read this to mean that you think there was a specific relationship between these areas in the sixth century? Or whether they were part of something?

JonikW
12-13-2019, 08:00 PM
Sorry, late to this discussion and drifting off topic.

JonikW - Just struck by your reference to South Wales here and wondering if I should read this to mean that you think there was a specific relationship between these areas in the sixth century? Or whether they were part of something?

Hi Phoebe. I'll try to clarify what I meant. First, there were of course discrete power structures with various kings and petty rulers operating separately in those territories. I don't know how far some of these rulers may have held sway over areas across the grouping but when you consider such kings as Brychan, who ruled in Wales but was from an Irish royal house, I assume there was probably sometimes a power overlap.

What I really meant is that there was broadly one cultural and linguistic horizon shared by the regions, with links maintained by sea - the highways of the day, as you know.

We know from the sources that there were frequent movements of the early saints between South Wales, Cornwall and Brittany, which are also likely to reflect movements by other members of society. The Wales/Cornwall sea crossing was to become the only way to travel between Wales and Cornwall after the Saxon conquest of much of western England.

St Samson of Dol was one saint who travelled in this way, crossing from Wales to Padstow before moving on to Dol. And there are many similar examples in the sources, often showing movement back from the continent too.

Edit: I think these people would have continued to think of each other as Britons. Also that the picture we're seeing in the DNA reflects this time as well as the Iron Age

Phoebe Watts
12-15-2019, 11:04 AM
Hi Phoebe. I'll try to clarify what I meant. First, there were of course discrete power structures with various kings and petty rulers operating separately in those territories. I don't know how far some of these rulers may have held sway over areas across the grouping but when you consider such kings as Brychan, who ruled in Wales but was from an Irish royal house, I assume there was probably sometimes a power overlap.

What I really meant is that there was broadly one cultural and linguistic horizon shared by the regions, with links maintained by sea - the highways of the day, as you know.

We know from the sources that there were frequent movements of the early saints between South Wales, Cornwall and Brittany, which are also likely to reflect movements by other members of society. The Wales/Cornwall sea crossing was to become the only way to travel between Wales and Cornwall after the Saxon conquest of much of western England.

St Samson of Dol was one saint who travelled in this way, crossing from Wales to Padstow before moving on to Dol. And there are many similar examples in the sources, often showing movement back from the continent too.

Edit: I think these people would have continued to think of each other as Britons. Also that the picture we're seeing in the DNA reflects this time as well as the Iron Age

Thanks for the explanation.

I like the description “broadly one cultural and linguistic horizon shared by the regions, with links maintained by sea” but for me that is difficult to relate to an area as focused as modern South Wales, Cornwall and Brittany.

I suppose that part of the issue is that much of the evidence for the links during the age of the saints is in the place names and saints of these modern countries; but we know that the territories involved in the fifth and sixth century - and into the seventh - would have been far wider.

So in the sixth century those links that you described covered far more of Britain and more of Armorica too.

mihaitzateo
12-15-2019, 11:41 AM
This theory coincides with my supposition that I had, when I seen some of the current South Britain people (English and Cornish ethnics).
If you take how long is the face of average Irish, Scott, Welsh and various English and Cornish, correct me if I am wrong, but there are South English and Cornish with smaller faces.
Scotts, Welsh, Irish are fully Nordish race, with longer faces.
South English and I am not reffering to the new migrants, but English that are of English ancestry, from before 1800 AD and Cornish,seems to have a stronger Continental Celtic input, than the rest of the British and Irish people.
This input cannot be from Normans, since most Normans were of mostly Scandinavian ancestry and the French ancestry of the Normans was not that high.
If you take J. R. R. Tolkien's writing, "The Lord of the Rings", you can see that Frodo , Bilbo etc are shorter people, as height and their origin seems to be from South England, since their home is called "Shire". Or whatever , the origin of Frodo, Bilbo, etc is England.
So, it seems that in South of England were some shorter people, which seems to be of Gaulish ancestry.

How the AngloSaxons, that came in Britain, from around 400 AD, were, from a racial point of view?
I think they were not Nordic race.
But they were neither short.
If you take the Autosomal DNA from England, is seen a stronger non-Scandinavian,Continental component and it was supposed this component is mostly from the AngloSaxons.
However, on Autosomal DNA, ancient Saxons and Angles are clustering with our days Scandos, so, this component should actually be from French Celts that migrated to South England and mixed with the native Bell Beakers.

Capitalis
12-15-2019, 02:42 PM
This input cannot be from Normans, since most Normans were of mostly Scandinavian ancestry and the French ancestry of the Normans was not that high.

We have modern Normans at Anthrogenica who plot with other North French. We have no Norman ancient DNA. I think it's well accepted that the Norse married heavily into the French population and became genetically North French.



So, it seems that in South of England were some shorter people, which seems to be of Gaulish ancestry.

I'm not short, neither are my extended family. Our height doesn't come from our Irish ancestry. I have the court documents of my 3 x great grandfather from Wiltshire who was hung for highway robbery in the early 1800s. He was listed as 6'1.



How the AngloSaxons, that came in Britain, from around 400 AD, were, from a racial point of view? I think they were not Nordic race.

We don't have to guess, we have the samples:

35368



However, on Autosomal DNA, ancient Saxons and Angles are clustering with our days Scandos

Yes, but they occupy the same space on a PCA plot for different reasons. The England_Saxon population formed from unadmixed Saxons and Romano-British. The Icelandic population formed from unadmixed Norse and unadmixed Gaels. The Norwegian population is shifted a bit towards English from Icelanders.

I think the overall NW European picture is becoming clearer.

jstephan
12-15-2019, 03:21 PM
Fabrice, a French member from the forum, made a special G25 model to test Armoricans in order to identify their insular against their "Gaulish" ancestry.

One of the component is named Ibero-Gaulois and is meant to reflect the Gaulish component. I am unsure from which samples that component is made of because we obviously don't have any certified Gaulish samples yet but his results on French members are very logical.

He tested his model using the average of all British and Irish Populations, here is what he found :

English
Bronze-scott : 44.2
Ibero-Gaulois :15
Britto-saxon : 40.8

English_Cornwall
Bronze-scott : 45
Ibero-Gaulois :17.6
Britto-saxon : 37.4

Scottish
Bronze-scott : 45.2
Ibero-Gaulois :9.4
Britto-saxon : 45.4

Welsh
Bronze-scott : 38.6
Ibero-Gaulois :17
Britto-saxon : 44.4

French_Brittany
Bronze-scott : 33
Ibero-Gaulois :23.8
Britto-saxon : 43.2

Irish
Bronze-scott : 41.8
Ibero-Gaulois :5.4
Britto-saxon : 52.8

And here is a map with all the Armorican members : http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/projet-armorique_340585#8/48.418/-1.607

mihaitzateo
12-15-2019, 04:20 PM
We have modern Normans at Anthrogenica who plot with other North French. We have no Norman ancient DNA. I think it's well accepted that the Norse married heavily into the French population and became genetically North French.




I'm not short, neither are my extended family. Our height doesn't come from our Irish ancestry. I have the court documents of my 3 x great grandfather from Wiltshire who was hung for highway robbery in the early 1800s. He was listed as 6'1.




We don't have to guess, we have the samples:

35368




Yes, but they occupy the same space on a PCA plot for different reasons. The England_Saxon population formed from unadmixed Saxons and Romano-British. The Icelandic population formed from unadmixed Norse and unadmixed Gaels. The Norwegian population is shifted a bit towards English from Icelanders.

I think the overall NW European picture is becoming clearer.

The Bretons/Britons from France are clustering together with French people (no idea from what are of France) on the graph that you posted.
I understood from a Breton lady, that was in the US (she had a Norwegian ancestor and an African one, but that was between her grand-grand-parents) , that Britons/Bretons that migrated from England to France mostly married between themselves.
The Cornish people are clustering very close to Bretons/Britons and Belgians, exactly over Bretons.
So there was a Gaulish migration from France, to England.
Another thing is that Bretons that migrated from England to France, after 300 AD , or so, did not mixed so much with Romans, as some French did. This is how the current French diverge from current south English and Bretons and Cornish people on Autosomal DNA, I think.
There is a story, that is real, about a Cesar of Roman Empire (of Gaelician Iberian ancestry) that seeks a wife and has a dream of a maiden, in her castle.
He sends his servants to search for that maiden.
His servants are finding the maiden, in Wales, she is the daughter of a Welsh Chieftain.
The Roman Caesar goes to the Welsh maiden and she accepts him as husband and loves him.
Since she was a virgin, the Caesar gives her father the rule of Britain.
In absence of the Caesar from Rome, another emperor takes power in Rome.
Maximus is helped by his wife brother to recapture power in Rome.
As a reward, Maximus takes a part of France from Gauls and give it to Bretons/Britons.
This part is later known as "Britanny".
:)
This is how some Bretons are migrating from England to NW France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Maximus#The_Dream_of_Macsen_Wledig

And the story, in more length, told on bbc:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/myths_mabinogion_macsen_wledig.shtml

FionnSneachta
12-15-2019, 09:25 PM
This theory coincides with my supposition that I had, when I seen some of the current South Britain people (English and Cornish ethnics).
If you take how long is the face of average Irish, Scott, Welsh and various English and Cornish, correct me if I am wrong, but there are South English and Cornish with smaller faces.
Scotts, Welsh, Irish are fully Nordish race, with longer faces.
South English and I am not reffering to the new migrants, but English that are of English ancestry, from before 1800 AD and Cornish,seems to have a stronger Continental Celtic input, than the rest of the British and Irish people.
This input cannot be from Normans, since most Normans were of mostly Scandinavian ancestry and the French ancestry of the Normans was not that high.
If you take J. R. R. Tolkien's writing, "The Lord of the Rings", you can see that Frodo , Bilbo etc are shorter people, as height and their origin seems to be from South England, since their home is called "Shire". Or whatever , the origin of Frodo, Bilbo, etc is England.
So, it seems that in South of England were some shorter people, which seems to be of Gaulish ancestry.

I could be wrong but I think that there's just a good bit variation within populations that you can't really say if a certain nationality tends to have long or small faces. I've never really looked into though. All I can say is that when my maternal grandmother first saw me, she said to my mum, "Where did you get the girl with small face-ín?" Irish people have habit of adding "ín" to the end of a word for something small or as a sign of endearment. It's something that has transferred over from the Irish language. My dad often calls me by the two syllables of my name and replaces the third with "ín" (prounced een) to the end of it. I do it with my dog as well and in lots of other occassions without even realising it. Anyway, I would have quite a small face. My dad's face would be quite small too. My brother's head was big as a baby. My paternal grandfather's head was a bit big though. To me, there just seems to be natural variation without one or the other being necessarily associated with a nationality.

With regards to The Shire, I think he just took the name 'Shire' from the names of counties for inspiration rather than because certain people were smaller. He was an Englishman after all. The Shire is also quite idyllic countryside. People often get inspiration from the world around them. The map of Westeros in Game of Thrones is an upside down Ireland. The Fingers at the Vale is the Dingle Peninsula. People have come across different instances in Irish history where Martin may have drawn some inspiration from. One example is possibly the Red Wedding which has been compared to the Anglo-Norman Lords Piers de Bermingham and John Fitzthomas who were engaged in an increasingly bitter conflict against some of the Gaelic Irish families. They maintained relatively good relations with the O’Connors of Offaly though, one of the leading families in the region. De Bermingham strengthened these ties with personal connections acting as godfather to Masir O’Connor. When de Bermingham invited the ruling elite of the O’Connors to his castle for a feast in 1305, there was little to fear. However, de Bermingham without warning turned on the O’Connors. Perhaps fearing he could no longer rely on their support, he massacred his guests at the feast. He had his godson Masir thrown from the battlements of the castle. I think that some inspiration for the warring families may have come from the number of Irish kingdoms fighting each other. Of course, England had its own internal warring like the War of the Roses. I have a little book that includes notable dates for the O'Kellys. One of them just simply reads, "1472 - A peace meeting between O'Kelly and O'Conor Don fails. Many killed in the fighting that resulted." The O'Kellys nearly seemed to me like annoying neighbours that were trying to weaken the power of the O'Conors whenever they had the opportunity. They could work together when it suited like when both families appealed to Ulick Burke of Clanricard for help when Gerald FitzGerald invaded their lands and seized castles or going on expeditions together. It's funny knowing all that went on in the past when my family would be friendly with descendants of these O'Conors (we're still beneath them though!).

Capitalis
12-16-2019, 01:58 PM
The Bretons/Britons from France are clustering together with French people (no idea from what are of France) on the graph that you posted.
I understood from a Breton lady, that was in the US (she had a Norwegian ancestor and an African one, but that was between her grand-grand-parents) , that Britons/Bretons that migrated from England to France mostly married between themselves.
The Cornish people are clustering very close to Bretons/Britons and Belgians, exactly over Bretons.
So there was a Gaulish migration from France, to England.
Another thing is that Bretons that migrated from England to France, after 300 AD , or so, did not mixed so much with Romans, as some French did. This is how the current French diverge from current south English and Bretons and Cornish people on Autosomal DNA, I think.
There is a story, that is real, about a Cesar of Roman Empire (of Gaelician Iberian ancestry) that seeks a wife and has a dream of a maiden, in her castle.
He sends his servants to search for that maiden.
His servants are finding the maiden, in Wales, she is the daughter of a Welsh Chieftain.
The Roman Caesar goes to the Welsh maiden and she accepts him as husband and loves him.
Since she was a virgin, the Caesar gives her father the rule of Britain.
In absence of the Caesar from Rome, another emperor takes power in Rome.
Maximus is helped by his wife brother to recapture power in Rome.
As a reward, Maximus takes a part of France from Gauls and give it to Bretons/Britons.
This part is later known as "Britanny".
:)
This is how some Bretons are migrating from England to NW France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Maximus#The_Dream_of_Macsen_Wledig

And the story, in more length, told on bbc:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/myths_mabinogion_macsen_wledig.shtml

If you've read any of my 500+ posts (please don't!) you'll know that I am the ring leader for Iron Age/Roman southern English/Welsh people being hugely influenced by Gaulish people. So we don't disagree.

I also see the potential for significant Norman influence, which would explain why modern southern English are south of the Anglo-Saxon samples.

The alternative is no real Norman influence and therefore no real Anglo-Saxon influence, otherwise why would modern southern English plot by LBA/IA/Roman English? I doubt this is correct because of the assumed turnover in Y-DNA.

If anyone disagrees, no worries.

Capitalis
12-16-2019, 02:15 PM
Fabrice, a French member from the forum, made a special G25 model to test Armoricans in order to identify their insular against their "Gaulish" ancestry.

One of the component is named Ibero-Gaulois and is meant to reflect the Gaulish component. I am unsure from which samples that component is made of because we obviously don't have any certified Gaulish samples yet but his results on French members are very logical.

He tested his model using the average of all British and Irish Populations, here is what he found :

English
Bronze-scott : 44.2
Ibero-Gaulois :15
Britto-saxon : 40.8

English_Cornwall
Bronze-scott : 45
Ibero-Gaulois :17.6
Britto-saxon : 37.4

Scottish
Bronze-scott : 45.2
Ibero-Gaulois :9.4
Britto-saxon : 45.4

Welsh
Bronze-scott : 38.6
Ibero-Gaulois :17
Britto-saxon : 44.4

French_Brittany
Bronze-scott : 33
Ibero-Gaulois :23.8
Britto-saxon : 43.2

Irish
Bronze-scott : 41.8
Ibero-Gaulois :5.4
Britto-saxon : 52.8

And here is a map with all the Armorican members : http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/projet-armorique_340585#8/48.418/-1.607

Didn't a research paper suggest that the LBA Scottish samples showed signs of already being mixed with Norse? This would explain the LBA Scottish shift away from the Viking Gaelic samples towards the Viking Norse in my plot above. In other words, people had boats long before the Viking Age.

So I don't trust these models, I'm afraid.

jstephan
12-16-2019, 03:41 PM
Didn't a research paper suggest that the LBA Scottish samples showed signs of already being mixed with Norse? This would explain the LBA Scottish shift away from the Viking Gaelic samples towards the Viking Norse in my plot above. In other words, people had boats long before the Viking Age.

So I don't trust these models, I'm afraid.

Yes, it's a model shaped for modern Armoricans and meant for others identifications, it was a mistake from me to bring it here sorry.

Capitalis
12-16-2019, 03:48 PM
Yes, it's a model shaped for modern Armoricans and meant for others identifications, it was a mistake from me to bring it here sorry.

It wasn't a mistake to bring it but I think all models should be critiqued to search for confounding components. For example, if the LBA Scottish samples in the model are meant to represent ancient Britons, but the samples are part-Norse, then they won't represent what you hoped they would.

Modelling is hard - I have disowned all of my own calculators and I've made more than most here.

K33
12-16-2019, 05:06 PM
On national scale we see here a big difference between Norway/Saxons (more close to the "Gaul" sample) and Sweden (that is most on distance).

What makes this difference? Why are the Norwegians more "Gaulish" than the Swedes?

https://www.mupload.nl/img/scrffnh6wg10s.08.59.png
I believe that the original Vikings had higher steppe, higher WHG/SHG, and lower Neolithic anceestry than modern Scandinavians. Both the Swedish Viking from Sigtuna and the Icelandic Norse samples confirm this, in that they plot between modern Scandinavians and Balts.

Modern Scandinavians OTOH plot between ancient Vikings and British/Northern French, just like the "mixed" half Norse/half Gaelic samples from Iceland. The simplistic conclusion would be that masses of slaves from the British Isles were brought to Viking territories and eventually incorporated in the Scandinavian genepool. The lack of "Gaelic" y-dna in modern Scandinavians could easily be explained by female-mediated admixture...

https://i.imgur.com/vZ6jm2h.png

Capitalis
12-16-2019, 07:37 PM
I believe that the original Vikings had higher steppe, higher WHG/SHG, and lower Neolithic anceestry than modern Scandinavians. Both the Swedish Viking from Sigtuna and the Icelandic Norse samples confirm this, in that they plot between modern Scandinavians and Balts.

Modern Scandinavians OTOH plot between ancient Vikings and British/Northern French, just like the "mixed" half Norse/half Gaelic samples from Iceland. The simplistic conclusion would be that masses of slaves from the British Isles were brought to Viking territories and eventually incorporated in the Scandinavian genepool. The lack of "Gaelic" y-dna in modern Scandinavians could easily be explained by female-mediated admixture...

https://i.imgur.com/vZ6jm2h.png

In this case, I think it's the only conclusion that fits.

But many other questions about post-Roman origins of NW Europeans can only cause headaches. What really bothers me is how close MBA/LBA (Southern) England and Netherlands were; I think, in part, they might have been an identical population. I have no idea what this means in terms of language, and as always I'll point out that I'm not interested in who spoke what.

I don't see why, if the two populations were so close, that the movement wouldn't have continued throughout the IA and Roman eras. So this (theorised) closeness means that England was already continentally shifted prior to the migration period (just as LBA Scotland may have been Norse-shifted).

How can this be untangled from Viking Age Danish influence, as I suspect Danish samples will be located in that general direction? One modern Dane is on my above plot.

Also, we have so few Anglo-Saxon-(Jute) samples that other samples might plot more east of England than north of it, adding to the confounding.

Lastly, some modern English people seem to have largely avoided continental influence from all directions, plotting by so-called isolated Gaels. This interests me more than anything at the moment.

Finn
12-16-2019, 08:28 PM
In this case, I think it's the only conclusion that fits.

But many other questions about post-Roman origins of NW Europeans can only cause headaches. What really bothers me is how close MBA/LBA (Southern) England and Netherlands were; I think, in part, they might have been an identical population. I have no idea what this means in terms of language, and as always I'll point out that I'm not interested in who spoke what.

I don't see why, if the two populations were so close, that the movement wouldn't have continued throughout the IA and Roman eras. So this (theorised) closeness means that England was already continentally shifted prior to the migration period (just as LBA Scotland may have been Norse-shifted).

How can this be untangled from Viking Age Danish influence, as I suspect Danish samples will be located in that general direction? One modern Dane is on my above plot.

Also, we have so few Anglo-Saxon-(Jute) samples that other samples might plot more east of England than north of it, adding to the confounding.

Lastly, some modern English people seem to have largely avoided continental influence from all directions, plotting by so-called isolated Gaels. This interests me more than anything at the moment.

I guess the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia share much of the same gene pool. This has it offshoot in other parts of NW Europe (and vice versa).

The spread of the North Dutch/NW German Beakers is basically. These BB folks were rooted in the CW/ Single Grave culture. And they mixed more and more with the Funnelbeaker TRB people. We see this on the whole North German Plain/ Southern Scandinavia.

These Bell Beakers spread also to the Isles. I guess they are responsible for a kind of common ground on both sides of the North Sea.

The difference between the Isles and the North Germain Plain/Southern Scandinavian room is that may be the mixture with the Funnelbeaker substrate (high in HG) went on after the BB took the boat.

So in fact the Anglo-Saxon stream are the 'far nephews' of the North Dutch/ NW German Bell Beakers. I think more enriched with Funnelbeaker residu than on the other side of the sea on the Isles.

And I think you must take in account that Hallstatt/La Tene like influences came mostly from the area beneath the Rhine, so South Dutch. Call them Belgae or Gauls (but we only have some proxy Gauls). North Dutch isn't so much touched by that (as for example Irish like Jessie).

This is way too short and feel free to discus.....just food for thought or something like that.

Finn
12-16-2019, 08:39 PM
And an add with the K33 method I used the coordinates of GvsC:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/7rubhsq.35.22.png

Looks like if Finn Mom is super Germanic (in other models Finn Dad looks more typical Germanic of the migration time), and you also see the diversity in North Dutch (Finn Mom vs Dad) and through the generations.

sktibo
12-16-2019, 09:45 PM
Didn't a research paper suggest that the LBA Scottish samples showed signs of already being mixed with Norse? This would explain the LBA Scottish shift away from the Viking Gaelic samples towards the Viking Norse in my plot above. In other words, people had boats long before the Viking Age.

So I don't trust these models, I'm afraid.

I just wanted to add my thoughts onto this.
I don't think we're going to be able to get anywhere using methods like admixture when it comes to deciphering the genetics of Bronze Age and post Bronze Age NW Europe. Something like this might very well mean that people had boats (as you put it) before we commonly consider migrations across the North Sea, it's a perfectly reasonable proposal. I think that another perfectly reasonable proposal is that these people might have also just represented more closely the modern peoples of Scandinavia and Northern Europe in the past (See Rathlin) and could have drifted away from this position for a number of reasons. It's quite interesting to see that when modern NW Europeans are plotted it is the Irish who consistently reach out towards the top of the plot, in a direction where no other population exists or sits. That means that at least of part of what we see is due to genetic drift, due to isolation, which may be not a popular theory as people always want to impose modern ideas about diversity, complex trade links, and similar things being a part of the past, but oh well. Maybe they were. I don't think it does any good to compare this to our records and books of history, rather, we should try look at the genetic data without our preconceived biases and wishes coming to play, which they always do, unfortunately.

What we can see, time and time again, is that the North-West Europeans are ridiculously similar. What I think this means is that we are never going to get anywhere by trying to compare them to modern populations or by using admixture. Perhaps an identity by descent approach could actually get us somewhere.
When the EBA to LBA British samples are plotted, there's a bit of variation, but it is not much. they all inhabit the same space. I think it's difficult because going into this our expectations were pretty different than what we've found so far: that the noble Celts would have been noticeably different from the marauding Germanic invaders and we'd be able to pick out one from the other easily. Looks like we can't do that.

So, TL;DR, I don't trust any of these models either. Plot position, sure, closest distance, well, it's not so different from plot position, so sure, but I think we need to step away from admixture and our models and try a different approach, perhaps IBD can show us something, perhaps not. I don't know,
Help us Lara Cassidy, you are our only hope.

Finn
12-16-2019, 10:20 PM
I just wanted to add my thoughts onto this.
I don't think we're going to be able to get anywhere using methods like admixture when it comes to deciphering the genetics of Bronze Age and post Bronze Age NW Europe. Something like this might very well mean that people had boats (as you put it) before we commonly consider migrations across the North Sea, it's a perfectly reasonable proposal. I think that another perfectly reasonable proposal is that these people might have also just represented more closely the modern peoples of Scandinavia and Northern Europe in the past (See Rathlin) and could have drifted away from this position for a number of reasons. It's quite interesting to see that when modern NW Europeans are plotted it is the Irish who consistently reach out towards the top of the plot, in a direction where no other population exists or sits. That means that at least of part of what we see is due to genetic drift, due to isolation, which may be not a popular theory as people always want to impose modern ideas about diversity, complex trade links, and similar things being a part of the past, but oh well. Maybe they were. I don't think it does any good to compare this to our records and books of history, rather, we should try look at the genetic data without our preconceived biases and wishes coming to play, which they always do, unfortunately.

What we can see, time and time again, is that the North-West Europeans are ridiculously similar. What I think this means is that we are never going to get anywhere by trying to compare them to modern populations or by using admixture. Perhaps an identity by descent approach could actually get us somewhere.
When the EBA to LBA British samples are plotted, there's a bit of variation, but it is not much. they all inhabit the same space. I think it's difficult because going into this our expectations were pretty different than what we've found so far: that the noble Celts would have been noticeably different from the marauding Germanic invaders and we'd be able to pick out one from the other easily. Looks like we can't do that.

So, TL;DR, I don't trust any of these models either. Plot position, sure, closest distance, well, it's not so different from plot position, so sure, but I think we need to step away from admixture and our models and try a different approach, perhaps IBD can show us something, perhaps not. I don't know,
Help us Lara Cassidy, you are our only hope.

Agree with the most of it but want to stress that numbers don’t speak for themselves we need context, archeology history, it’s anthro and genica isn’t it?

sktibo
12-16-2019, 10:21 PM
Agree with the most of it but want to stress that numbers don’t speak for themselves we need context, archeology history, it’s anthro and genica isn’t it?

No we don't. We need to step away from that and examine the data without our biases as much as possible. Sorry.
The question should be "If we knew nothing about the history of these people what would this data tell us?"

Finn
12-16-2019, 10:26 PM
No we don't. We need to step away from that and examine the data without our biases as much as possible. Sorry.
The question should be "If we knew nothing about the history of these people what would this data tell us?"

Without a proper context you get no notion.....blanco.

Capitalis
12-17-2019, 06:46 PM
So, TL;DR, I don't trust any of these models either. Plot position, sure, closest distance, well, it's not so different from plot position, so sure, but I think we need to step away from admixture and our models and try a different approach, perhaps IBD can show us something, perhaps not. I don't know,
Help us Lara Cassidy, you are our only hope.

When I raised the point a while back that one of Lara's co-authored papers showed that modern Irish shared haplotypes with Portugal MBA, it went down like a lead balloon here because I linked it to the "Celtic from the West" concept and the fact that Hallstatt DA111 seems to be a combination of Central Europe BA and Portugal MBA.

So hopefully there are some surprises to come in NW Europe; all hope is not lost.

35443

sktibo
12-17-2019, 07:46 PM
When I raised the point a while back that one of Lara's co-authored papers showed that modern Irish shared haplotypes with Portugal MBA, it went down like a lead balloon here because I linked it to the "Celtic from the West" concept and the fact that Hallstatt DA111 seems to be a combination of Central Europe BA and Portugal MBA.

So hopefully there are some surprises to come in NW Europe; all hope is not lost.

35443

Can you elaborate on this? You're saying that modern Irish share haplotypes with MBA samples from Portugal, and that DA111 also shares haplotypes with MBA Portuguese samples? Or just that DA111 looks like it's a mixture of Central Europe and Portuguese Bronze Age samples? I find the Celtic from the West theory quite unconvincing when compared to the genetic data we currently have, but that's because post EBA all the Insular samples plot in the same space and it doesn't look like there's any evidence of a shift towards a population in a different direction. Of course, if there's IBD showing a link to one of these populations that would change things.. it would certainly make things more colorful and interesting than how they currently appear.

Capitalis
12-17-2019, 07:57 PM
Can you elaborate on this? You're saying that modern Irish share haplotypes with MBA samples from Portugal, and that DA111 also shares haplotypes with MBA Portuguese samples? Or just that DA111 looks like it's a mixture of Central Europe and Portuguese Bronze Age samples?

No. Yes.


I find the Celtic from the West theory quite unconvincing when compared to the genetic data we currently have, but that's because post EBA all the Insular samples plot in the same space and it doesn't look like there's any evidence of a shift towards a population in a different direction. Of course, if there's IBD showing a link to one of these populations that would change things.. it would certainly make things more colorful and interesting than how they currently appear.

When I wrote about "Celtic from the West" a while back, I was suggesting that the theory that Celtic spread from the Atlantic to Central Europe doesn't look so crazy given that DA111 is southwest shifted from EBA Central European samples, and given that the modern Irish show no shift towards Central Europe post-EBA.

So we're not in disagreement as I also said that perhaps Celtic was the lingua franca along the Atlantic coast without much DNA exchange between southwest and northwest Europe during the MBA, but then DNA exchange later from southwest to central Europe. Doesn't matter really as no one bit.

sktibo
12-17-2019, 08:02 PM
No. Yes.



When I wrote about "Celtic from the West" a while back, I was suggesting that the theory that Celtic spread from the Atlantic to Central Europe doesn't look so crazy given that DA111 is southwest shifted from EBA Central European samples, and given that the modern Irish show no shift towards Central Europe post-EBA.

So we're not in disagreement as I also said that perhaps Celtic was the lingua franca along the Atlantic coast without much DNA exchange. Doesn't matter really as no one bit.

Thanks, well it does seem to be that language can change without the exchange of DNA, can't rule it out. I do appreciate your willingness to take on some interesting ideas and discuss them, I think that's important.

It seems like there's a lot of potential paths the spread of the Celtic languages could have taken and one possibility is that it could never be traceable with certainty.

Capitalis
12-17-2019, 08:03 PM
Thanks, well it does seem to be that language can change without the exchange of DNA, can't rule it out. I do appreciate your willingness to take on some interesting ideas and discuss them, I think that's important.

I edited my post after you read it, just in case you missed it.

sktibo
12-17-2019, 08:06 PM
I edited my post after you read it, just in case you missed it.

Thanks for pointing that out

Capitalis
12-17-2019, 08:10 PM
Thanks for pointing that out

Also... :P still thinking through this: the DNA exchange from SW to C Europe that I propose wouldn't be en masse, it would be so-called "elite" movement, and from distant memory DA111 was an elite burial.

Capitalis
12-17-2019, 08:18 PM
Also... :P still thinking through this: the DNA exchange from SW to C Europe that I propose wouldn't be en masse, it would be so-called "elite" movement, and from distant memory DA111 was an elite burial.

No evidence of SW Europe origins to be fair.

35447

Finn
12-17-2019, 08:44 PM
We have modern Normans at Anthrogenica who plot with other North French. We have no Norman ancient DNA. I think it's well accepted that the Norse married heavily into the French population and became genetically North French.




I'm not short, neither are my extended family. Our height doesn't come from our Irish ancestry. I have the court documents of my 3 x great grandfather from Wiltshire who was hung for highway robbery in the early 1800s. He was listed as 6'1.




We don't have to guess, we have the samples:

35368




Yes, but they occupy the same space on a PCA plot for different reasons. The England_Saxon population formed from unadmixed Saxons and Romano-British. The Icelandic population formed from unadmixed Norse and unadmixed Gaels. The Norwegian population is shifted a bit towards English from Icelanders.

I think the overall NW European picture is becoming clearer.

And an add. Imo seen the plots from recent GvC samples my father comes most close to the Germanics of migration age. My mother has more pre- Germanic affinities (see for example the BB Lech Valley). The North Dutch are basically Anglo-Saxon influx with a Bronze Age substrate. See also the place of Finn Mom and Dad on your plot.

But overall it's difficult to disentangle because the incoming Chauci (Saxons) came from just a few miles away....so how differentiated were they from the Bronze Age population in North Dutch?

I guess in the end in the whole North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia consist of variants of the TRB/BB blends.

Correct me If I'am wrong....

moesan
12-17-2019, 09:08 PM
This theory coincides with my supposition that I had, when I seen some of the current South Britain people (English and Cornish ethnics).
If you take how long is the face of average Irish, Scott, Welsh and various English and Cornish, correct me if I am wrong, but there are South English and Cornish with smaller faces.
Scotts, Welsh, Irish are fully Nordish race, with longer faces.
South English and I am not reffering to the new migrants, but English that are of English ancestry, from before 1800 AD and Cornish,seems to have a stronger Continental Celtic input, than the rest of the British and Irish people.
This input cannot be from Normans, since most Normans were of mostly Scandinavian ancestry and the French ancestry of the Normans was not that high.
If you take J. R. R. Tolkien's writing, "The Lord of the Rings", you can see that Frodo , Bilbo etc are shorter people, as height and their origin seems to be from South England, since their home is called "Shire". Or whatever , the origin of Frodo, Bilbo, etc is England.
So, it seems that in South of England were some shorter people, which seems to be of Gaulish ancestry.

How the AngloSaxons, that came in Britain, from around 400 AD, were, from a racial point of view?
I think they were not Nordic race.
But they were neither short.
If you take the Autosomal DNA from England, is seen a stronger non-Scandinavian,Continental component and it was supposed this component is mostly from the AngloSaxons.
However, on Autosomal DNA, ancient Saxons and Angles are clustering with our days Scandos, so, this component should actually be from French Celts that migrated to South England and mixed with the native Bell Beakers.

I don't think this thread is dedicated to phenotypology, but just this: you have to look closer at these things before to affirm wrong facts. I want not go farther on here because it is not the place. No offense. Let's come back to autosomes or haplo's.
On this point, S-England has had a lot of people exchanges with France, before Calcho and Metals ages, before Saxons and after them, the first exchanges rather close to Celtic means (shortly said, because Celts had had a not to simple genesis and mixed with other people on their moves), the post Saxons ones even more mixed (a taste of Scandinavians in Normans, a taste of Aquitains, and who more...?).

mihaitzateo
12-17-2019, 09:10 PM
When I raised the point a while back that one of Lara's co-authored papers showed that modern Irish shared haplotypes with Portugal MBA, it went down like a lead balloon here because I linked it to the "Celtic from the West" concept and the fact that Hallstatt DA111 seems to be a combination of Central Europe BA and Portugal MBA.

So hopefully there are some surprises to come in NW Europe; all hope is not lost.

35443
This is supposing that was a migration from West to East in Europe.
Highest impact, from Britain and Ireland to rest of Europe and from Scandinavia to the rest of Europe.
The Bavarians from Tomenable's thread are having high Atlantic DNA and all are scoring over 10% West Med.
All are high in North Sea admixture, also (most have highest North Sea).
So, the DNA of these Bavarians is supporting the theory of people moving from West towards East, in Europe.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18115-Bavarian-German-GEDmatch-results&highlight=bavarian
On other calculators, some Germans or more Germans are scoring 20-30% British Isles admixture.
Most Romanians are also scoring a few or more British Isles admixture and/or French admixture.
(some 1-2-3%, some none, some even 20% French + British admixture).
However, is actually possible that Celtic tribes passed through Europe from East to West, in their migration route and left what is seen now as "West Admixture" - Iberian (Atlantic and West med), British and Irish (Atlantic and North Sea) , French.
If Celtic tribes came from East and moved towards West Europe this will actually support the theory of French Gauls migrating to Britain.
This wave of Celtic migration should have been 2000 AD or later, or so.
Before Hallstatt Culture appeared.
If we take the time when Hallstatt Culture appeared, that is about 800 BC.
Hallstatt Culture appeared in the east part of Central Europe.
Later, a culture related to Hallstatt appears, La Tene.
So, this is supposing the theory that the Celtic tribes moved from East Central Europe Westwards.
As another thing, Romanians, Germans that are scoring British admixture, are not scorring Irish/Scottish if I remember right.
Because Irish/Scottish is more close to Bell Beakers.
So, after Celtic tribes came in Europe, first in East Europe, later, in Central Europe and later, they reached France and South Britain.
After, they (Celtic tribes) spread till in Ireland.

moesan
12-17-2019, 09:24 PM
I guess the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia share much of the same gene pool. This has it offshoot in other parts of NW Europe (and vice versa).

The spread of the North Dutch/NW German Beakers is basically. These BB folks were rooted in the CW/ Single Grave culture. And they mixed more and more with the Funnelbeaker TRB people. We see this on the whole North German Plain/ Southern Scandinavia.

These Bell Beakers spread also to the Isles. I guess they are responsible for a kind of common ground on both sides of the North Sea.

The difference between the Isles and the North Germain Plain/Southern Scandinavian room is that may be the mixture with the Funnelbeaker substrate (high in HG) went on after the BB took the boat.

So in fact the Anglo-Saxon stream are the 'far nephews' of the North Dutch/ NW German Bell Beakers. I think more enriched with Funnelbeaker residu than on the other side of the sea on the Isles.

And I think you must take in account that Hallstatt/La Tene like influences came mostly from the area beneath the Rhine, so South Dutch. Call them Belgae or Gauls (but we only have some proxy Gauls). North Dutch isn't so much touched by that (as for example Irish like Jessie).

This is way too short and feel free to discus.....just food for thought or something like that.

OK for the most, but I think the Anglo-Saxons (and fellows) of the 400/500's were a bit more in debt to Northern Germanics, and that TRBK had already lost a bit of its genetic input in them, but it's true I lack PCA with TRBK samples.

Finn
12-17-2019, 09:32 PM
This is supposing that was a migration from West to East in Europe.
Highest impact, from Britain and Ireland to rest of Europe and from Scandinavia to the rest of Europe.
The Bavarians from Tomenable's thread are having high Atlantic DNA and all are scoring over 10% West Med.
All are high in North Sea admixture, also (most have highest North Sea).
So, the DNA of these Bavarians is supporting the theory of people moving from West towards East, in Europe.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18115-Bavarian-German-GEDmatch-results&highlight=bavarian
On other calculators, some Germans or more Germans are scoring 20-30% British Isles admixture.
Most Romanians are also scoring a few or more British Isles admixture and/or French admixture.
(some 1-2-3%, some none, some even 20% French + British admixture).
However, is actually possible that Celtic tribes passed through Europe from East to West, in their migration route and left what is seen now as "West Admixture" - Iberian (Atlantic and West med), British and Irish (Atlantic and North Sea) , French.
If Celtic tribes came from East and moved towards West Europe this will actually support the theory of French Gauls migrating to Britain.
This wave of Celtic migration should have been 2000 AD or later, or so.
Before Hallstatt Culture appeared.

Before anything Celts nor Germanics are not a coherent tribe or people. There is no unified Celtic or Germanic genetic profile. No nucleus.
No one size fit's all.

The Bavarian MA are Elb Germans that went to the nowadays Bavarian ares, there they mixed with the local Boier and probably some Roman residues.

Finn
12-17-2019, 09:41 PM
OK for the most, but I think the Anglo-Saxons (and fellows) of the 400/500's were a bit more in debt to Northern Germanics, and that TRBK had already lost a bit of its genetic input in them, but it's true I lack PCA with TRBK samples.

I think you are slightly wrong, the NE Dutch area was very close knit to the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavian, may be in fact one gene pool.

See for example the work of JJ Butler he his in this respect very clear. The auDNA region of my mother was in the Bronze Age part of the North German/ South Scandinavian room.

https://ugp.rug.nl/Palaeohistoria/article/view/25026/22488


These suggest some sort of extraordinary connection between Drouwen and the North European cultural area in the Bronze Age, especially in the Late Bronze Age

Drouwen= Drenthe/ North Dutch (my mother comes exactly from that place!).

Dewsloth
12-17-2019, 09:50 PM
OK for the most, but I think the Anglo-Saxons (and fellows) of the 400/500's were a bit more in debt to Northern Germanics, and that TRBK had already lost a bit of its genetic input in them, but it's true I lack PCA with TRBK samples.


And an add. Imo seen the plots from recent GvC samples my father comes most close to the Germanics of migration age. My mother has more pre- Germanic affinities (see for example the BB Lech Valley). The North Dutch are basically Anglo-Saxon influx with a Bronze Age substrate. See also the place of Finn Mom and Dad on your plot.

But overall it's difficult to disentangle because the incoming Chauci (Saxons) came from just a few miles away....so how differentiated were they from the Bronze Age population in North Dutch?

I guess in the end in the whole North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia consist of variants of the TRB/BB blends.

Correct me If I'am wrong....

Someone call for TRB folks? :)

35449

Finn
12-17-2019, 10:03 PM
Someone call for TRB folks? :)

35449

For TRB West is IMO Blatterhohle MN the best option.

Please use Yamna Samara and Blatterhohle and see what you get....

Dewsloth
12-17-2019, 10:51 PM
For TRB West is IMO Blatterhohle MN the best option.

Please use Yamna Samara and Blatterhohle and see what you get....

35455

Well, that's different :)
From ph2ter's result, it looks like we're still missing at least one population.

Dewsloth
12-17-2019, 10:57 PM
What's interesting to me is while everyone has NLD Beakers as their closest, the next closest pop sources are more varied:


{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_Capitalis",
"fit": 2.0177,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 75.83,
"POL_TRB": 21.67,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 2.5,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 0,
"SWE_TRB": 0,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 4.093658",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 5.144785",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 5.427069",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 5.583918",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 5.861344",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 5.913739",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 6.269771",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 6.392167",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 13.437781",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 13.519172",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 14.107764",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 14.421009",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 14.431044",
"POL_TRB:N20: 14.831710",
"POL_TRB:N18: 15.270018",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 15.601756",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 15.674513",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 15.851784",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 15.962619",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 16.241471",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 16.326900",
"POL_TRB:N19: 16.718258",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 17.046454",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 17.531524",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 23.409236",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 24.323122",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 25.068804",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 25.162619",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 25.359755",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 26.930134"
]
},
{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_Dewsloth_dad",
"fit": 1.6649,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 42.5,
"POL_TRB": 40.83,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 16.67,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 0,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 0,
"SWE_TRB": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 5.663944",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 7.016035",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 7.150121",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 7.229114",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 7.356392",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 7.471429",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 8.113428",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 8.252339",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 11.993005",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 12.499149",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 12.929437",
"POL_TRB:N20: 12.972962",
"POL_TRB:N18: 13.392890",
"POL_TRB:N19: 14.807233",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 15.358957",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 15.887761",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 16.058285",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 17.129998",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 17.327736",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 17.357137",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 17.595283",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 17.772013",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 18.732059",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 19.043607",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 24.916776",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 25.421696",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 26.832358",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 26.834884",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 27.023422",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 28.560182"
]
},
{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_JMcB",
"fit": 1.5938,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 70,
"SWE_TRB": 20.83,
"POL_TRB": 9.17,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 0,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 0,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 4.264351",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 5.504365",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 5.672847",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 5.810582",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 6.274507",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 6.342461",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 6.654615",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 7.181602",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 12.505945",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 12.728637",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 13.368453",
"POL_TRB:N20: 14.027412",
"POL_TRB:N18: 14.440483",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 14.629545",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 15.301135",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 15.348477",
"POL_TRB:N19: 16.385225",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 16.538183",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 16.640538",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 16.786582",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 16.927208",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 17.215462",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 17.924357",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 18.312914",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 22.928173",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 23.675568",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 24.745376",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 24.768937",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 25.013448",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 26.469791"
]
},
{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_Radboud",
"fit": 2.2575,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 72.5,
"POL_TRB": 20.83,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 6.67,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 0,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 0,
"SWE_TRB": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 4.228546",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 4.385190",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 5.148046",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 5.251931",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 5.269263",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 6.113728",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 6.176263",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 6.655208",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 13.775539",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 13.855999",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 13.871928",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 14.076499",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 14.727645",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 15.278714",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 15.377150",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 15.384516",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 15.472605",
"POL_TRB:N20: 15.651694",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 15.944400",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 16.095477",
"POL_TRB:N18: 16.366346",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 16.468508",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 16.878979",
"POL_TRB:N19: 17.369570",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 22.888592",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 24.115456",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 24.559626",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 24.569958",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 24.875783",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 26.398432"
]
},
{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_finn",
"fit": 2.711,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 80.83,
"SWE_TRB": 11.67,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 6.67,
"POL_TRB": 0.83,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 0,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 3.543581",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 4.175058",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 4.644237",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 4.739426",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 4.817576",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 5.319837",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 5.439237",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 5.703688",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 13.712773",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 13.810472",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 13.841839",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 14.868050",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 14.966507",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 15.136642",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 15.279377",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 15.419841",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 15.463203",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 15.631809",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 15.823121",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 16.186462",
"POL_TRB:N20: 16.428018",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 16.778600",
"POL_TRB:N18: 16.857785",
"POL_TRB:N19: 18.646905",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 21.933296",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 23.099506",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 23.427160",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 23.473839",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 23.714513",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 25.314882"
]
},
{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_finn_dad",
"fit": 2.5566,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 80,
"SWE_TRB": 15.83,
"POL_TRB": 4.17,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 0,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 0,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 3.559401",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 4.616916",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 4.696478",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 4.969490",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 5.119047",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 5.306701",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 5.538733",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 5.941067",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 13.888403",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 14.002115",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 14.002827",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 14.557285",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 15.091850",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 15.122551",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 15.233781",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 15.488237",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 15.593010",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 15.738915",
"POL_TRB:N20: 15.954383",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 16.029408",
"POL_TRB:N18: 16.306142",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 16.444862",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 16.905219",
"POL_TRB:N19: 18.071338",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 22.801706",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 23.849945",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 24.324885",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 24.398801",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 24.651522",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 26.228980"
]
},
{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_finn_mom",
"fit": 2.4065,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 76.67,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 12.5,
"SWE_TRB": 5.83,
"POL_TRB": 5,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 0,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 3.735668",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 4.213938",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 4.922104",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 4.998712",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 5.147815",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 5.673560",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 5.760408",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 5.951229",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 13.089630",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 14.230951",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 14.264321",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 14.287470",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 14.897963",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 15.207158",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 15.463159",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 15.624711",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 15.660546",
"POL_TRB:N20: 15.821532",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 15.843640",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 16.152967",
"POL_TRB:N18: 16.319138",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 16.687865",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 17.325025",
"POL_TRB:N19: 18.181888",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 21.735919",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 22.791599",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 23.319585",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 23.336872",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 23.548945",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 25.120674"
]
},
{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_firemonkey",
"fit": 2.285,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 80,
"POL_TRB": 19.17,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 0.83,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 0,
"SWE_TRB": 0,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 3.594038",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 4.516922",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 4.688456",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 4.833361",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 4.894222",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 5.485156",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 5.518907",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 6.093815",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 13.838239",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 14.062080",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 14.074125",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 14.520775",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 15.032789",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 15.269950",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 15.352801",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 15.573701",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 15.629433",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 15.663881",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 15.832413",
"POL_TRB:N20: 15.953833",
"POL_TRB:N18: 16.145461",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 16.700736",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 17.128203",
"POL_TRB:N19: 18.433282",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 22.246721",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 23.526757",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 24.059228",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 24.075474",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 24.266544",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 25.814133"
]
},
{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_ph2ter",
"fit": 4.2058,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 49.17,
"POL_TRB": 29.17,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 17.5,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 4.17,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 0,
"SWE_TRB": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 5.321389",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 5.960197",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 6.085077",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 6.690450",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 6.838800",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 6.951054",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 7.272443",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 7.361108",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 14.338218",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 14.522665",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 14.914610",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 15.138147",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 15.226011",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 15.439473",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 15.559449",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 15.574544",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 15.789199",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 16.011028",
"POL_TRB:N20: 16.079140",
"POL_TRB:N18: 16.418025",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 16.631379",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 16.934438",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 17.171795",
"POL_TRB:N19: 18.166992",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 23.148896",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 24.668467",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 24.679259",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 24.686573",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 24.807520",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 26.468189"

Jessie
12-18-2019, 04:59 AM
Thanks for these models as it's always interesting comparing with other people from populations in the same proximity. From these models I appear to have the highest BB Nld next to Radbound. BB Nld ate nearly everything up for him in the first model.

With first model

https://i.imgur.com/uJoMFcz.png

2nd model

https://i.imgur.com/g6NmMuQ.png


Closest population next to BB Netherlands is Yamnaya Samara even though I got 0 from them with the second model.

"sample": "Custom:AGUser_Jessie",
"fit": 2.1122,
"Bell_Beaker_NLD": 84.17,
"SWE_TRB": 6.67,
"POL_TRB": 5,
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN": 4.17,
"SWE_Motala_HG": 0,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750: 3.167937",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073: 3.860518",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068: 4.104320",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069: 4.116700",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076: 4.135140",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075: 5.098423",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074: 5.252579",
"Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748: 5.271054",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439: 13.422447",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357: 13.486550",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563: 14.088235",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443: 14.534163",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370: 14.788590",
"SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164: 14.959343",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231: 14.980944",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444: 15.145234",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489: 15.330114",
"SWE_TRB:Gokhem2: 15.569552",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593: 16.033472",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429: 16.042879",
"POL_TRB:N20: 16.461332",
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438: 16.488055",
"POL_TRB:N18: 16.762292",
"POL_TRB:N19: 18.609781",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0013: 22.159642",
"DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1565: 23.486367",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0015: 23.779645",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0011: 23.906103",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0014: 24.044735",
"SWE_Motala_HG:I0012: 25.655484"

linthos
12-18-2019, 05:58 AM
Ran the second model in Vahaduo just out of curiosity.


Target: linthos_scaled
Distance: 2.0612% / 0.02061164
50.6 Bell_Beaker_NLD
26.8 POL_TRB
19.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 SWE_TRB
0.0 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN
0.0 SWE_Motala_HG


Distance to: linthos_scaled
0.03976691 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750
0.04369901 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4069
0.04831977 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4073
0.05055936 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4076
0.05120494 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4068
0.05838474 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4074
0.05911617 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5748
0.06455053 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I4075
0.13492869 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357
0.13658531 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439
0.13998106 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1563
0.14150107 SWE_TRB:Kvarlov5164
0.14787825 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370
0.14858392 SWE_TRB:Gokhem2
0.14876643 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231
0.15000626 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444
0.15044773 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443
0.15487115 POL_TRB:N20
0.15616132 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489
0.16192835 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429
0.16240928 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN:I1593
0.16291473 POL_TRB:N18
0.16532230 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438
0.17486065 POL_TRB:N19
0.22954053 SWE_Motala_HG:I0013

Finn
12-18-2019, 07:51 AM
@jessie @linthos @dewsloth thanks and with an eye wink to Skitbo and deliver these numbers immediately a clear picture?I guess not.....

Hereby a biased interpretation as always tentative so with much room for debate....

I didn’t take Blatterhohle and Yamna by accident, BB Is already a kind of mixture of both. And therefore the BB scores incredible closer to us.

This is analysis of the TRB west the conclusion is that like Blatterhohle TRB west is a mixture of HG and EEF but more than TRB Sweden (very high EEF) it has an exceptional high HG.


The Sorsum sample additionally suggests a sizeable WHG/SHG component in the TRB Tiefstichkeramik sphere that isn’t fully represented by the Gökhem samples, and most likely represents Swifterband-Erteboelle adstrate. In summary, TRB-Tiefstichkeramik may represent the fusion of both of the EEF streams (Mediterranean/Cardial, and Danubian/LBK, including their differing HG substrate), with North European post-Kongemose HG traditions.



More specifically, TRB Sorsum appears to incorporate a substantial portion of HG ancestry, possibly in the 40-50% range when related to Anatolian farmers. In this sense, he is reminiscent of the Blätterhöhle MN samples (ca. 3600 BC, late Michelsberg). In fact, considering the Bätterhöhle’s location not too far from the Hellweg, migration from there to Sorsum is well imaginable.

https://adnaera.com/2018/09/09/a-first-and-intriguing-glimpse-at-trb-west-group-adna/

Yamna is most close to the incoming Steppe pastoralist about 2800 BC.

When I take them in a model I get these kind of results:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/c7wicvq5no.png

Of course the fit is not optimal. There are some influxes and mutations afterwards but you can see that Evon and Finn Mom are most close (best fit) and have a severe shot Blatterhohle (compare Radboud and Finn Mom 42% Blatterhohle and 58% Yamna vs Radboud 37% Blatterhohle and 63% Yamna).

In the case of Finn mom this is no wonder she comes from the absolute TRB hotspot from the Netherlands with only ancestry from that spot....she comes (with Evon) most close to the TRB folks.

At the same time the ranges are small.

alan
12-18-2019, 08:12 PM
A lot of recent archaeological work suggests that the north-east French, and southern Low Countries were culturally incredibly close to the southern English in the period 2000-1000BC. So much so it has been described as a single 'maritory' - a cultural territory united by the English Channel. We tend to look too much at beaker and then jump to the end of the bronze age/iron age and ignore the 1200 years in between. This is simply because every Tom, Dick and Harry know about beakers, Hallstatt and La Tene but the cultures in between are not as well known. However, there was a sustained and constant strong connection and that went right down to basic stuff like pottery and house types, not just elite fancy goods. So, I would suggest that both sides of the English channel were heavily interacting and intermarrying and low level migration was going on for 1000 years before the better known links at the end of the bronze age and iron age. The populations were probably almost identical genetically prior to the whole Urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene sequence that people tend to focus too much on.They almost certainly must have spoken the same language.

MitchellSince1893
12-18-2019, 08:52 PM
A lot of recent archaeological work suggests that the north-east French, and southern Low Countries were culturally incredibly close to the southern English in the period 2000-1000BC. So much so it has been described as a single 'maritory' - a cultural territory united by the English Channel. We tend to look too much at beaker and then jump to the end of the bronze age/iron age and ignore the 1200 years in between. This is simply because every Tom, Dick and Harry know about beakers, Hallstatt and La Tene but the cultures in between are not as well known.

Do these cultures have a name?

Finn
12-18-2019, 09:16 PM
A lot of recent archaeological work suggests that the north-east French, and southern Low Countries were culturally incredibly close to the southern English in the period 2000-1000BC. So much so it has been described as a single 'maritory' - a cultural territory united by the English Channel. We tend to look too much at beaker and then jump to the end of the bronze age/iron age and ignore the 1200 years in between. This is simply because every Tom, Dick and Harry know about beakers, Hallstatt and La Tene but the cultures in between are not as well known. However, there was a sustained and constant strong connection and that went right down to basic stuff like pottery and house types, not just elite fancy goods. So, I would suggest that both sides of the English channel were heavily interacting and intermarrying and low level migration was going on for 1000 years before the better known links at the end of the bronze age and iron age. The populations were probably almost identical genetically prior to the whole Urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene sequence that people tend to focus too much on.They almost certainly must have spoken the same language.

That is may be the case but more northern in the lowlands and on the Isles (Northern England, Scotland) the picture is different and may be as close!
The Bell Beaker phenomenon is mostly a North Dutch (=above the Rhine) case, the hotspots are a small area above Amsterdam, but important because it delivered the Olalde samples (that are close to the English ones!!) the Veluwe area in the center and the NE sandy districts especially Drenthe.

You can see it clearly the BB are not leaning to the channel in the SW they are leaning towards the NE parts of the Netherlands, flowing into NW Germany:

Fokkens (2012)
https://www.mupload.nl/img/gply4bnb4.54.29.png


Lanting:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/ghx10d55.png

The (post) BB cultures of the Protruding Foot Beaker and Barbed Wire Beakers are also NE Dutch and NW Germany:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/203rqf4f.55.59.png

And the info of Clarke it an older work 1967 but it's from a time in which some archeologist where not only focused on the 'pots' but also on 'people':


The Northern British/North Rhine Beaker Group
The particular interest of the Northern/North Rhine group and its close cousin the Barbed Wire beaker group, is that both groups only just scrape within the definition of beakers of the Bell beaker tradition. Both Northern/North Rhine and the Barbed-Wire beaker groups comprise traditions of mixed Late Corded Ware and peripheral Bell beaker origin. This mixture of traditions can be recognised in the squat, protruding foot, ovoid body beakers with recurved rims, incised or grooved decoration with a poor repertoir of basic beaker motifs and a neolithic poverty of grave associations. To these factors can be added the occasional use of cremation
burial rite in a small grave with the beaker beside the cremation heap, and a number of vessels without decoration below the belly.
The Northern/North Rhine beaker group then is represented by the small squat or globular vessels with protruding feet. The decoration frequently consists of heavy grooving below the rim with crude or carelessly incised zones on the body, including metopic motifs. The typical motif is the multiple outlined triangle of the diagnostic form common throughout the Corded Ware tradition and entirely alien in the Bell beaker motif assemblage (Struve, 195 5, p. 136). The origin of the group seems to lie in the similar assemblages found immediately North of the old Rhine Delta and alongthe hinterland of the Frisian coasts. The Dutch examples of this group have been partially defined by Modderrnan ( 1955) but the type is centered across the border in coastal Germany4. In this are a it would appear that late and devolved Corded Waregroups integrated small bands of beaker settlers producing a pottery assemblage of hybrid character. These folk, with their strong non-beaker background, apparently crossed theNorth Sea in a series of small bands somewhere around 1700 B.C. or slightly later. The settlers clustered in three foci based on the North Sea Coast: - around the Moray Firth, in the Border Counties and on the Yorkshire Wolds. The domestic assemblage included both undecorated and non-plastic rusticated ware. The main importance of these settlers from across the North Sea lies in the subsequent integration of certain of their pottery features with the later Dutch beakers of the Veluwetype, giving rise to regional insular variations such as the beakers with short, angular.all-over-grooved necks.


The Northern British Beaker Tradition
The intrusive beaker group, represented by the Primary Northern/Dutch folk, rapidly settled, consolidated and expanded their territory in Britain. This Primary group established a beaker tradition that was to continue to evolve in NorthernBritain for at least another two centuries. I propose to divide the beakers of the subsequent Northern British tradition into a series of four consecutive assemblages orgroups, each of which represents a successively later phase in the tradition. Needless to say these assemblages Ol' groups are only phases in the coherent development of a single social tradition and must be assumed to overlap considerably. In additionto the Primary Northern group (N IjD), just discussed, I propose to distinguish a Developed Northern group (Nz), a Late Northern Group (N3) and a Final Northern Group (N4), each defined on the basis of the evolving motif assemblage and shape variation that separate the increasingly insular Northern British tradition from its divergently evolving Veluwe ancestor. There is however, some evidence of continued contact with the Netherlands upto, and including, a few beakers and associations of van der Waals' ZId group . The available evidence points to the continued links with the Vel uwe as the source of the single-rivet and notched rhomboidal knivesand also as the stimulus for more extensive metallurgy in Northern Britain.The confines of this paper are too small to allow the detailed description of the successive phases of the Northern British beaker tradition. However, I wish to underline one or two aspects. By the Developed Northern beaker phase c. 1600 B.C. this tradition was the dominant beaker tradition in Britain. Regional centres of the tradition evolved regional shape and motif preferences within the body of the maintradition. These are as included extensive settlements around the Fen Margin, in North Wessex, on the Yorkshire Wolds, in the Border Counties and along the ScottishEast Coast. This chain of settlement are as along the North Sea coast clearly maintained its commonly evolving tradition by sea trafIic. Consequently the central area of Yorkshire originally played a crucial axial role in linking the other groups one to another. With the subsequent expansion of the Southern beaker tradition, the centre of distribution within the Northern tradition retreated into the Scottish counties with consequent expansion of related groups to the West Scottish Coast and ultimatelyto Northern Ireland . One crucial feature needing special emphasis was the relatively heavy settlement of Northern British beakers (Nz, N3 ) around the Fen Margin of East Anglia and more sparsely, in North Wessex. The situation in Britain c. 1600 B.C. sees the Developed Northern Beaker tradition (N 2) occupying most of Britain north of the Wash. The remnants of the earlier beaker settlers were integrated into the new tradition but gave rise to regional styles within the tradition.

So besides the Channel there is a also a big North Sea connection in the Bronze Age!

MitchellSince1893
12-19-2019, 06:20 AM
Do these cultures have a name?

https://www.socantscot.org/resource/by-way-of-the-sea-exploring-a-bronze-age-maritory-in-nw-europe/

https://books.google.com/books?id=0W5hCgAAQBAJ&ppis=_e&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false


The Wessex culture is the predominant prehistoric culture of central and southern Britain during the early Bronze Age, originally defined by the British archaeologist Stuart Piggott in 1938.[1] It should not be confused with the later Saxon kingdom of Wessex.

The culture is related to the Hilversum culture of the southern Netherlands, Belgium and northern France, and linked to the northern France armorican tumuli,[2] prototyped with the Middle Rhine group of Beaker culture and commonly subdivided in the consecutive phases Wessex I (2000-1650 BC) and Wessex II (1650-1400).

Finn
12-19-2019, 08:17 AM
https://www.socantscot.org/resource/by-way-of-the-sea-exploring-a-bronze-age-maritory-in-nw-europe/

https://books.google.com/books?id=0W5hCgAAQBAJ&ppis=_e&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Indeed Mitch, and this is how they situated. I remember also something that you brought in about the streams in the North Sea/ Channel. This could also cause this kind of split:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/j3vc43ghj.54.51.png


You can see that the these Northern Elp part is also (Proto-) Saxon territory!!!

Capitalis
12-19-2019, 06:37 PM
When I raised the point a while back that one of Lara's co-authored papers showed that modern Irish shared haplotypes with Portugal MBA, it went down like a lead balloon here because I linked it to the "Celtic from the West" concept and the fact that Hallstatt DA111 seems to be a combination of Central Europe BA and Portugal MBA.

So hopefully there are some surprises to come in NW Europe; all hope is not lost.

35443

35510

Samples in model:


CZE_Bilina_BA:I7949,0.0112,0.013,0.0172,0.0187,0.0 103,0.0066,0.0014,0.0035,-0.0007,-0.0033,-0.0018,0.0022,-0.0078,-0.0045,0.0138,0.0077,-0.0071,0.0017,0.0043,0.0075,0.0026,0.0092,-0.0013,0.0002,-0.0027
CZE_EBA:I4884,0.0116,0.0118,0.0173,0.0227,0.0065,0 .0115,0.0001,0.0032,-0.003,-0.0102,0.0034,-0.0002,-0.0014,-0.0108,0.0159,0.0016,-0.0064,-0.0002,0.001,0.0015,0.0028,-0.0073,-0.0021,0.0054,-0.0005
CZE_EBA:I4892,0.011,0.0119,0.0163,0.022,0.0093,0.0 09,0.0024,0.0024,0.0034,-0.0082,-0.0007,0.0016,-0.003,-0.0091,0.0146,0.0109,0.0063,-0.0005,0.0038,0.0097,0.0062,-0.0039,-0.004,0.0009,0.004
CZE_EBA:I7195,0.0107,0.0126,0.0147,0.0212,0.0078,0 .0052,0.0036,-0.0018,-0.0016,-0.0044,-0.0056,0.0067,-0.0103,-0.0148,0.0171,0.0139,0.0068,-0.0032,-0.0018,0.002,0.0082,-0.002,-0.0048,0.0075,-0.0035
CZE_EBA:I7196,0.0114,0.0141,0.0151,0.0134,0.0132,0 .0028,0.0015,0.0004,0.0026,0.0027,-0.0064,0.0009,-0.0115,-0.0074,0.0233,0.0007,-0.0118,0.0031,0.0071,-0.001,0.0048,0.002,0.0041,-0.0032,0.001
CZE_EBA:I7198,0.0112,0.0102,0.0144,0.0263,0.0048,0 .0095,0.0014,-0.0025,-0.0045,-0.0121,0.0019,0.0024,-0.0071,-0.0118,0.0209,0.0067,-0.0035,0.0065,0.0016,-0.0034,-0.0002,0.0001,0.0025,0.0068,-0.0015
CZE_EBA:I7199,0.0109,0.0115,0.0165,0.0256,0.006,0. 0099,-0.0001,-0.0005,-0.0051,-0.0123,-0.001,-0.0017,-0.0057,-0.0122,0.0139,0.0184,0.0077,-0.0009,0.0053,0.0084,0.0088,0.0077,0.0006,0.0063,-0.0001
CZE_EBA:I7200,0.0105,0.0121,0.015,0.0194,0.0055,0. 0053,0.0003,0.0001,-0.0079,-0.0053,-0.0008,0.0019,-0.0037,-0.0051,0.0135,0.018,0.0101,0.0004,0.0022,0.0027,0. 0023,0.0061,0.003,0.0078,-0.0047
CZE_EBA:I7201,0.0115,0.0118,0.0168,0.021,0.0114,0. 0045,0.0025,0.0019,0.0002,-0.0062,0.001,-0.0009,-0.0001,-0.0058,0.0162,0.0062,-0.0064,0,-0.0031,0.0107,0.0118,0.0003,-0.0002,0.0045,0.0053
CZE_EBA:I7202,0.0113,0.0124,0.0153,0.023,0.0086,0. 0087,0.0032,0.0024,-0.0038,-0.0084,-0.0061,-0.001,-0.0054,-0.0041,0.0126,-0.0033,-0.0172,0.0009,0.0022,0.0017,0.0078,0.005,0.0057,0. 005,-0.0076
CZE_Starounetice_EBA:I5035,0.0111,0.0127,0.0147,0. 019,0.0096,0.0065,0.002,0.0022,0.0005,-0.0011,-0.0081,0.0038,-0.0161,-0.0188,0.0294,0.0117,-0.0115,-0.0065,0.0057,-0.0021,0.019,0.01,-0.0082,-0.0162,-0.0051
CZE_Unetice_EBA:I5043,0.0112,0.0119,0.0151,0.0219, 0.012,0.0051,0.0018,0.0018,0.0019,-0.0044,-0.005,0.0013,-0.0051,-0.0077,0.0162,0.0097,0.0054,0.002,0.0034,0.0044,0. 01,0.0092,0.0039,0.0064,-0.0017
CZE_Unetice_EBA:I5044,0.0113,0.0133,0.015,0.0164,0 .0091,0.0063,0.0001,0.0017,-0.0001,-0.0042,-0.0015,-0.0005,-0.0021,0.0062,0.0077,0.0085,-0.0169,0.006,-0.0033,0.0098,0.003,-0.001,-0.0023,-0.0017,-0.0036
DEU_Halberstadt_LBA:I0099,0.0113,0.013,0.0155,0.01 69,0.0104,0.0086,0.0032,0.0022,0.0023,-0.0028,0.0013,0.0015,-0.0096,-0.0109,0.0116,0.0131,0.0058,-0.003,0.0005,0.0038,0.0021,0.0024,0.0029,0.006,0.0 023
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.0107,0.0138,0.0139,0.0082, 0.0132,0.0011,0.0005,0.0005,0.0017,0.0098,-0.0008,0.0075,-0.0141,-0.0144,0.0077,0.0166,0.0131,-0.0015,0.0077,0.0019,0.0064,0.0032,-0.0041,0.0008,0.007
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.0109,0.0138,0.0149,0.0127,0. 0137,0.0059,-0.0013,0.0009,0.0069,0.0101,0.0014,0.0045,-0.0136,-0.0003,0.0086,0.0012,-0.0069,-0.005,0.0104,0.0101,0.0056,0.003,0.0012,-0.0045,-0.0039
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.0116,0.0133,0.0123,0.0106,0 .0118,0.0013,0.0011,0.0025,0.0026,0.0055,0.0008,0. 0079,-0.0114,-0.0109,0.0127,0.0114,0.0165,0.0046,0.0026,0.0026,0 .005,-0.0017,0.0009,-0.0022,-0.0014
DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44,0.0109,0.0142,0.015,0.0027,0. 016,-0.0007,-0.0008,0.0003,0.0043,0.0155,0.0008,0.0062,-0.0121,-0.0022,0.0039,0.0063,-0.002,-0.0021,0.0036,0.0009,-0.0066,-0.0067,-0.0011,-0.0022,-0.0027
DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50,0.0106,0.0151,0.0116,-0.0008,0.0172,-0.0012,-0.0014,-0.0009,0.0109,0.0171,-0.0036,0.0058,-0.015,-0.0076,-0.0016,0.011,0.0163,0.0034,0.001,-0.0046,0.0021,0.0001,0.0023,-0.0043,-0.0087
DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6,0.0113,0.0127,0.0175,0.0167,0. 0111,0.0065,0.0004,-0.0012,0.0014,0.001,-0.0039,0.008,-0.0026,-0.0109,0.0111,0.0023,-0.0033,-0.0011,0.0023,0.0022,0.006,-0.0027,-0.0033,0.0012,-0.0051
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.0112,0.0141,0.0147,0.01 02,0.0115,0.0033,0.0063,-0.0005,-0.0009,0.006,0.0049,0.0058,-0.0125,-0.0137,0.0056,0.0122,0.0091,-0.0021,0.0036,0.0031,-0.0026,-0.003,-0.0031,0.0158,-0.0034
DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415adult_d,0.0109,0.0118,0.0165 ,0.0206,0.0058,0.0081,-0.0007,0.0001,-0.0093,-0.0069,-0.0021,0.0047,-0.0052,-0.0145,0.0196,0.0154,0.0129,0.0011,-0.0039,0.0085,0.0099,-0.0019,0.0042,0.0027,-0.0134
DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child,0.0119,0.0126,0.0132,0 .0158,0.0097,0.0069,0.0025,0,-0.0001,0.0015,-0.0038,0.0084,-0.0088,-0.0147,0.0151,0.0052,-0.0036,0.0014,0.0041,0.0077,0.0024,0.0037,-0.0015,-0.0053,-0.0043
DEU_Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d,0.0112,0.0154,0.0127,0 .0017,0.0151,-0.0041,0.0014,0.005,0.0049,0.0172,0.004,0.0086,-0.0084,-0.0084,-0.007,0.0006,0.0012,-0.003,-0.0045,0.0046,-0.0024,0.0077,-0.0011,-0.0053,-0.0099
DEU_Unetice_EBA:I0115,0.0113,0.0123,0.0177,0.0201, 0.0131,0.009,0,0.0069,-0.0031,-0.0137,-0.0043,0.0038,-0.0099,-0.0084,0.012,0.0025,-0.0013,0.0007,0.0005,0.0113,0.0101,-0.0008,-0.0012,0.0037,-0.0012
DEU_Unetice_EBA:I0116,0.0114,0.012,0.0166,0.0191,0 .0098,0.0064,0.0028,-0.0015,0.0008,-0.005,0.0021,-0.0004,-0.0063,-0.0057,0.011,0.0015,-0.0072,0.0018,0.0006,-0.0015,0.0017,-0.0015,0.003,-0.0084,0.0017
DEU_Unetice_EBA:I0117,0.0111,0.0126,0.017,0.019,0. 0127,0.0055,0.0004,0.0034,0.0022,-0.0002,-0.0013,0.003,-0.0078,-0.0099,0.0079,0.0035,-0.0058,0.0017,0.0067,-0.0028,0.0062,0.006,-0.0034,-0.0013,-0.0026
DEU_Unetice_EBA:I0164,0.0114,0.0122,0.0169,0.0202, 0.0088,0.0076,0.0027,0.0021,-0.006,-0.0109,-0.0007,0,-0.0035,-0.0086,0.0221,0.0074,-0.008,-0.0044,0.0024,0.0111,0.0042,0.0044,0.0006,0.0108,-0.0039
DEU_Unetice_EBA:I0803,0.0108,0.0116,0.0129,0.021,0 .0089,0.0051,0.002,-0.0037,-0.0034,-0.0108,-0.0024,0.0081,0.0055,-0.0079,0.0056,0.0195,0.0019,-0.0021,-0.0059,0.0036,0.0027,0.0102,0.0022,-0.0032,0.0042
Iberia_Southwest_BA:I10939,0.0103,0.0142,0.0115,-0.0044,0.018,-0.0051,0.0004,0.0008,0.0233,0.0333,-0.0023,0.0049,-0.0125,-0.0107,0.0054,0.0056,-0.0015,-0.0054,0,0.001,0.0145,0.0019,-0.0007,-0.0253,0.0023
Iberia_Southwest_BA:I10941,0.0108,0.0153,0.0153,-0.0039,0.0237,-0.0045,-0.0021,0.0033,0.0217,0.0352,-0.0023,0.0114,-0.0183,-0.0085,0.0034,-0.0068,-0.0043,-0.0007,0.0025,0.0039,0.009,-0.0007,-0.0116,-0.0187,0.0014
ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA:RMPR851,0.0117,0.0154,0.0117,-0.0032,0.0152,-0.0017,0.0035,0.0018,0.0116,0.0243,-0.0026,0.0074,-0.0149,-0.0081,-0.0046,-0.0046,0.0021,-0.0001,0.0039,-0.0034,-0.0073,0.0035,-0.0025,-0.0079,-0.0024
ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o:RMPR850,0.0091,0.0141,-0.0039,-0.0204,0.0016,-0.0075,0.0009,-0.0013,0.0026,0.007,0.0057,0.0061,-0.0044,0.0058,-0.0011,-0.0085,-0.0112,-0.0021,0.0099,-0.0026,-0.0021,-0.0077,-0.0004,-0.0048,0.0032
ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA:RMPR1021,0.0111,0.0151,0.009 3,-0.0046,0.017,-0.0048,-0.0004,0.0015,0.01,0.0228,0.0026,0.0067,-0.0091,-0.0064,0.0055,-0.0118,-0.0092,-0.0024,0.0039,-0.0101,0.0063,0.0051,-0.0062,-0.0011,0.0067
ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473,0.011,0.0156,0.0094,-0.0061,0.015,-0.001,0,-0.0012,0.0129,0.0227,-0.0018,0.0085,-0.0125,-0.0056,-0.0042,-0.0133,-0.008,0.0032,0.008,-0.0017,-0.0038,-0.0011,-0.0027,0.0019,-0.0029
ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b,0.0108,0.0149,0.0097,-0.0028,0.0118,-0.0009,0.001,-0.0015,0.0068,0.0153,-0.0022,0.0077,-0.0092,-0.003,-0.0027,0.0031,0.0037,0.008,0.0104,-0.0021,-0.0038,0.0043,-0.0004,-0.0026,-0.0022
ITA_Etruscan_o:RMPR475b,0.0065,0.0156,0.0037,-0.0146,0.0151,-0.0067,-0.0077,0.0019,0.0212,0.024,0.0022,0.0042,-0.0046,-0.0051,-0.0021,-0.0116,0.0006,-0.0062,-0.0071,-0.002,-0.0122,-0.0043,0.0001,-0.0077,0.0013
ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b,0.011,0.0145,0.01 2,0.0018,0.0146,0.002,-0.0004,0.0015,0.0116,0.0216,-0.0028,0.006,-0.0144,-0.0107,0.0095,-0.0015,-0.0008,0.0049,0.0024,-0.0026,0.0038,0.0023,-0.0051,-0.0002,-0.0017
ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b,0.0103,0.0154,-0.001,-0.015,0.0062,-0.0063,-0.0005,-0.0018,0.0013,0.0163,0.0011,0.0041,-0.0084,-0.0022,-0.0098,0.0039,0.0138,-0.0021,-0.0022,-0.0017,0.001,0.0048,-0.001,0.0038,0.0008
ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1,0.0107,0.0142,0.0081,-0.0037,0.0078,-0.0032,0.0011,-0.0011,0.0024,0.012,0.0034,0.0038,-0.0093,-0.0009,-0.004,-0.0102,-0.0078,0.0029,0.0038,-0.0093,-0.0058,0.0003,-0.0024,0.0045,-0.0052
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.0112,0.0146,0.0092,-0.0054,0.014,-0.002,-0.0009,-0.0014,0.0122,0.0282,-0.0009,0.009,-0.0229,-0.0074,-0.0062,0.0087,0.0142,-0.0029,0.0043,0.0035,0.0026,-0.0014,0.0021,-0.0052,-0.0063
ITA_Villanovan:RMPR1015,0.0113,0.0153,0.0111,-0.0071,0.0176,-0.0026,-0.0008,-0.0009,0.0117,0.0217,0.0046,0.0033,-0.0111,-0.0137,-0.0045,0.0083,0.0197,0.0027,0.0018,0.0039,0.0043,0 .0032,-0.0068,-0.0063,-0.0024
HRV_IA:I3313,0.0116,0.0149,0.009,-0.005,0.0081,-0.0021,-0.0027,0.0031,0.0018,0.0159,0.0011,0.0078,-0.0142,-0.001,-0.0044,-0.0064,-0.005,0.0039,0.0044,-0.0114,-0.0015,0.0041,0.0012,0.0021,0.0028
HRV_MBA:I4331,0.0113,0.0149,0.0075,-0.0023,0.0126,-0.0025,-0.003,-0.0026,0.0018,0.0154,0.0038,0.0069,-0.0118,-0.0026,-0.0056,0.0049,0.0062,-0.0024,0.0049,-0.0093,-0.0047,-0.0009,-0.0003,0.0032,-0.001
HRV_MBA:I4332,0.0106,0.0145,0.0091,-0.0038,0.0125,0.0008,-0.0018,0.0005,0.0047,0.0176,-0.0037,0.0073,-0.0084,-0.0107,-0.0044,0.0081,0.0157,-0.0009,0.0006,-0.0088,-0.001,0.007,-0.0034,0.0017,-0.002
HUN_Prescythian_IA:IR1,0.0103,0.0083,0.0111,0.0084 ,-0.0006,0.0015,0.0025,0.0006,-0.007,-0.0078,-0.0026,-0.001,0.0019,-0.0061,0.0092,-0.0028,-0.0153,0.0011,0.0109,-0.0029,-0.0041,0.0025,0.0023,0.0024,-0.0006
Scythian_HUN:DA191,0.0108,0.0129,0.0222,0.0119,0.0 155,0.0047,0.0042,0.0073,0.0024,-0.0007,-0.0012,-0.0045,0.0055,-0.0012,-0.003,-0.0001,-0.0104,-0.0017,0.0024,0.0011,-0.0028,0.0051,-0.0023,-0.0094,-0.0023
Scythian_HUN:DA194,0.0115,0.0129,0.0191,0.013,0.01 64,0.007,0.0001,0.0036,0.006,0.0034,-0.0002,0.0012,0.0028,-0.0068,0.0004,0.0148,0.0142,0.0009,0.001,0.0026,0. 0055,-0.0068,0.0015,-0.0123,-0.0038
Scythian_HUN:DA195,0.0103,0.0136,0.0098,0.0042,0.0 102,0.0014,-0.0001,-0.0003,0.0041,0.0087,-0.002,-0.0022,-0.0008,0.0005,-0.0118,0.0087,0.0092,0.0055,0.0059,-0.0005,-0.0093,-0.0062,0.0068,-0.0038,-0.0033
Scythian_HUN:DA197,0.0109,0.0143,0.0171,0.0108,0.0 122,0.0038,-0.0017,0.005,0.0043,0.0018,0.0023,-0.0008,-0.0015,0.0073,-0.0063,0.0034,0.0086,-0.005,0.0015,0.0001,0.0019,0.0006,0.0004,-0.0069,-0.0054
Scythian_HUN:DA198,0.0109,0.0157,0.0067,-0.0088,0.0099,-0.0024,-0.0001,-0.0003,0.007,0.0172,0.0005,0.0061,-0.0048,0.0042,-0.0084,-0.013,-0.0013,0.0078,0.0011,-0.0075,-0.0101,0.0078,-0.0051,0.0058,-0.0082
Scythian_MDA:scy192,0.0109,0.0135,0.0041,-0.0062,0.0051,-0.0046,0.001,0.0003,0.0005,0.0142,0.0058,-0.0004,-0.0047,-0.0065,-0.0098,-0.0073,0.0099,0.0034,-0.0003,0.0028,-0.0094,0.008,-0.0035,-0.0036,0.0015
Scythian_MDA:scy197,0.0108,0.0138,0.0078,-0.0074,0.0075,-0.0046,0.0066,-0.0023,0.0011,0.0193,-0.0036,-0.0009,-0.0075,0.0002,-0.0078,-0.0089,0.0011,-0.0001,0.0106,-0.0082,-0.0038,-0.0008,0.0027,-0.0023,-0.0075
Scythian_MDA:scy300,0.0102,0.0138,0.0068,-0.0097,0.0054,-0.0019,-0.0007,-0.0032,0.0038,0.0184,0.0043,0.0045,-0.003,-0.0007,-0.007,0.0017,-0.0006,0.0036,0.0098,-0.0052,-0.0033,0.0101,-0.0003,-0.0006,0.0086
Scythian_MDA:scy301,0.0099,0.0086,0.0081,0.005,0.0 007,0.0017,-0.0007,-0.0012,-0.0086,0.0012,-0.0042,-0.0013,-0.0052,-0.0043,0.0023,0.007,0.0063,0.0033,0.007,0.0073,-0.0081,0.0087,0.0056,0.0012,0.001
Scythian_MDA:scy305,0.0104,0.0125,0.0029,-0.0044,0.0058,-0.0024,-0.0005,-0.0005,0.0011,0.0123,-0.0024,0.0049,-0.0094,0.006,-0.0075,0.0005,-0.0042,0.0033,0.013,-0.0066,-0.0074,0.0047,-0.006,0.0062,0.0023
Scythian_MDA:scy311,0.0105,0.0093,0.0046,0.0014,0. 003,0.0033,-0.0006,-0.0038,-0.0032,0.0038,0.0031,0.0046,-0.0093,-0.0046,0.0019,0.017,0.0083,0.0033,0.0048,-0.0027,-0.0079,-0.0001,-0.0041,0.0098,-0.0029
Scythian_MDA_o:scy303,0.0114,0.0129,0.0173,0.0196, 0.0121,0.0072,0.0036,0.0015,0.0035,-0.0041,-0.0005,0.0016,-0.0052,-0.0081,0.0113,0.0185,0.0111,0.001,-0.0012,0.0051,0.0056,0.001,-0.0016,0.0009,0.0069
Scythian_RUS_Urals:MJ42,0.0068,-0.0077,0.0153,0.0146,-0.0127,0.0028,-0.0019,0.0001,-0.0084,-0.0097,-0.0051,-0.0043,-0.0052,-0.0152,0.0089,0.0069,-0.0039,-0.005,0.0053,-0.0027,-0.0138,0.0074,-0.0032,0.0077,0.0056
Scythian_UKR:MJ13,0.0102,0.0115,0.017,0.0178,0.005 ,0.0037,-0.0014,0.0007,-0.0058,-0.0153,0.001,0.0011,0.0057,0.003,-0.0019,-0.0022,-0.0147,-0.0058,0.0125,-0.0012,0.0049,0.0029,0.0055,-0.0002,0.0036
Scythian_UKR:MJ14,0.0119,0.0119,0.0123,0.0203,0.01 16,0.0036,0.0052,0.0108,-0.0025,-0.0135,-0.0027,-0.0035,0.0169,0.0056,-0.013,-0.0021,0.0165,0.0037,0.0084,0.0122,0.0008,0.0041,0 .0109,0.001,-0.0073
Scythian_UKR:MJ15,0.0096,0.0015,0.011,0.0211,-0.0102,0.007,-0.0013,-0.0047,-0.0145,-0.0171,-0.0041,0.0004,-0.0059,-0.0094,0.0108,0.0064,0.0006,0.0055,-0.0035,0.0005,0.0029,0.0009,0.0006,-0.0005,-0.0005
Scythian_UKR:MJ16,0.0094,0.0065,0.0085,0.0171,0.00 06,0.0057,-0.0001,0.0082,-0.0048,-0.0088,0.0019,-0.0014,-0.0048,-0.0023,0.006,0.0111,0.008,0.0088,-0.0085,0.0019,0.0003,-0.008,0.0027,0.0037,-0.0042
Scythian_UKR:MJ34,0.0101,0.0092,0.0097,0.012,0.000 2,0.0019,0.0007,0.0026,-0.0034,-0.0087,0.0008,-0.0002,-0.0033,-0.0034,0.0068,0.0057,-0.0001,-0.0009,0.0009,0.0013,-0.0018,0.0013,-0.0038,-0.0093,0.0038
Scythian_UKR:MJ35,0.0096,0.008,0.0076,0.0155,-0.0022,0.0053,0.0058,0.0051,-0.0057,-0.0044,-0.0133,-0.0074,0.0107,-0.0071,0.0027,0.0036,-0.0042,0.002,-0.0055,0.0062,-0.015,-0.008,-0.0073,-0.0035,0.0065
Scythian_UKR:MJ46,0.0096,0.006,0.0074,0.011,-0.0005,0.0054,-0.0003,-0.0051,-0.003,-0.0063,-0.0062,0.0005,-0.0162,-0.0105,0.0077,-0.0136,-0.0037,0.001,-0.0039,0.0001,-0.006,-0.0041,-0.0006,0.0001,-0.0071
Scythian_UKR:scy009,0.011,0.0142,0.0183,0.0178,0.0 146,0.0075,0.0043,0.003,0.0021,-0.0059,-0.002,-0.0036,0.0052,0.0093,0.0009,0.0065,0.0032,-0.0045,-0.0023,0.0027,0.0054,-0.0004,0.0034,-0.0176,0.0026
Scythian_UKR:scy010,0.0101,0.0133,0.0137,0.0138,0. 0115,0.0063,-0.0028,0.0001,-0.0021,-0.0029,-0.0005,-0.005,-0.0076,-0.0003,-0.0046,0.0108,0.0156,-0.0056,0.0144,0.005,0.0015,0.0031,-0.0073,-0.0023,-0.0016
Scythian_UKR:scy011,0.0092,0.0075,0.0082,0.0089,-0.0037,0.0029,0.0035,-0.0016,-0.0095,-0.0161,-0.0018,0.0039,-0.0072,0.0041,0.0005,0.0067,-0.0089,0.0058,0.0049,0.0059,-0.0102,-0.0106,0.009,0.0016,-0.0012
Baltic_EST_IA:0LS10_1,0.0109,0.0091,0.026,0.031,0. 0116,0.0124,0.0021,0.009,-0.0055,-0.0232,0.0071,-0.0147,0.0202,0.0021,-0.0053,0.0057,0.0212,-0.002,0.0022,0.0053,-0.0001,0.003,-0.0016,-0.014,0.0005
Baltic_EST_IA:V10_2,0.0108,0.0101,0.0263,0.0268,0. 0144,0.0076,0.001,0.0086,0.008,-0.0189,0.0055,-0.0035,0.0216,0.0093,-0.0027,0.0112,0.0135,0.0023,0.0035,0.0139,0.0058,-0.0015,-0.0006,-0.0051,-0.0007
Baltic_EST_IA:V11_1,0.0118,0.0116,0.0226,0.0281,0. 0134,0.0142,0.0041,0.006,-0.0002,-0.0161,0.0004,-0.0159,0.0148,0.0173,-0.0036,-0.006,0.0112,-0.0007,0.0015,0.0068,0.0041,-0.0064,0.0024,-0.0082,-0.0016
Baltic_EST_IA:V12_1,0.0114,0.012,0.0255,0.0256,0.0 12,0.0117,0.0056,0.0057,-0.0003,-0.0205,-0.0033,-0.0051,0.0112,0.0181,-0.0053,0.0054,0.0069,0.0022,0.001,0.0088,0.0017,-0.0048,0.0068,-0.0061,-0.0041
Baltic_EST_IA:VII4_1,0.0113,0.0107,0.0245,0.027,0. 0163,0.009,0.0017,0.0057,0.0023,-0.0211,0.0035,-0.0102,0.0097,0.0034,-0.0079,0.0091,0.0074,-0.0042,0.002,0.0124,0.0088,0.0019,0.0098,-0.0019,-0.0015
Baltic_EST_IA:X04_1,0.011,0.0108,0.023,0.0289,0.01 73,0.0116,0.0076,0.0055,0.0007,-0.0195,-0.0017,-0.0046,0.012,0.0196,0.0048,0.0046,0,-0.0002,0.006,0.0092,0.001,0.0017,0.002,-0.0116,-0.0005

Capitalis
12-19-2019, 06:44 PM
A lot of recent archaeological work suggests that the north-east French, and southern Low Countries were culturally incredibly close to the southern English in the period 2000-1000BC. So much so it has been described as a single 'maritory' - a cultural territory united by the English Channel. We tend to look too much at beaker and then jump to the end of the bronze age/iron age and ignore the 1200 years in between. This is simply because every Tom, Dick and Harry know about beakers, Hallstatt and La Tene but the cultures in between are not as well known. However, there was a sustained and constant strong connection and that went right down to basic stuff like pottery and house types, not just elite fancy goods. So, I would suggest that both sides of the English channel were heavily interacting and intermarrying and low level migration was going on for 1000 years before the better known links at the end of the bronze age and iron age. The populations were probably almost identical genetically prior to the whole Urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene sequence that people tend to focus too much on.They almost certainly must have spoken the same language.


What really bothers me is how close MBA/LBA (Southern) England and Netherlands were; I think, in part, they might have been an identical population. I have no idea what this means in terms of language, and as always I'll point out that I'm not interested in who spoke what.

I don't see why, if the two populations were so close, that the movement wouldn't have continued throughout the IA and Roman eras. So this (theorised) closeness means that England was already continentally shifted prior to the migration period (just as LBA Scotland may have been Norse-shifted).

I based my comment on PCA plots, but don't worry, I know my status here.

MitchellSince1893
12-19-2019, 07:34 PM
On a personal note, I don't think my y-dna line's arrival to Britain is associated with this English Channel maritory culture...too early.

Around 1000 BC U152>>>>FGC12401 had descendants that ended up in Italy, Hungary, and Britain. According to Bigtree.net the Hungarian/Italian line split from each other circa 800 BC. So my line may have been an Urnfield or early Hallstaat arrival.

But I'm sure many other U152 lines could have arrived during the Maritory period.

Finn
12-19-2019, 07:37 PM
What really bothers me is how close MBA/LBA (Southern) England and Netherlands were; I think, in part, they might have been an identical population.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Is the resemblance with Unetice or with or MBA/LBA Isles....??? What would be the explanation.....???

How do you interpret this in the light of the following North Dutch results:

pen= 0

FinnMom,
"fit": 1.1314,
"CZE_Unetice_EBA": 54.8,
"ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA": 20.6,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 8.4,
"DEU_Unetice_EBA": 7.2,
"DEU_Lech_EBA": 5.2,
"CZE_EBA": 3.2,
"Scythian_MDA_o": 0.6,

FinnDad,
"fit": 1.0748,
"CZE_EBA": 27,
"DEU_Unetice_EBA": 20.8,
"CZE_Unetice_EBA": 16.2,
"DEU_Lech_EBA": 15.6,
"ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA": 10.8,
"Scythian_MDA": 9,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 0.4,
"CZE_Bilina_BA": 0.2,

pen= 0,001

FinnMom,
"fit": 1.2798,
"CZE_Unetice_EBA": 43.2,
"CZE_Bilina_BA": 23,
"CZE_EBA": 7.8,
"Scythian_MDA_o": 7.6,
"DEU_Lech_EBA": 5.8,
"DEU_Unetice_EBA": 4.4,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 1.8,
"ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA": 1.4,
"ITA_Etruscan": 1.2,
"Scythian_MDA": 1.2,
"ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA": 1,
"Iberia_Southwest_BA": 0.6,
"HRV_MBA": 0.4,
"Scythian_HUN": 0.4,
"HRV_IA": 0.2

FinnDad,
"fit": 1.2316,
"CZE_Bilina_BA": 24.4,
"DEU_Unetice_EBA": 24.2,
"CZE_EBA": 17.2,
"CZE_Unetice_EBA": 13.6,
"DEU_Lech_EBA": 10.6,
"ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA": 2,
"ITA_Etruscan": 1.8,
"Scythian_MDA": 1.8,
"ITA_Proto-Villanovan": 1.6,
"ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA": 1,
"DEU_Halberstadt_LBA": 0.8,
"HRV_IA": 0.6,
"Scythian_HUN": 0.4

alan
12-20-2019, 11:16 AM
Indeed Mitch, and this is how they situated. I remember also something that you brought in about the streams in the North Sea/ Channel. This could also cause this kind of split:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/j3vc43ghj.54.51.png


You can see that the these Northern Elp part is also (Proto-) Saxon territory!!!

yes that is the maritory group of cultures and the closeness sometimes is incredible. I fully expect that the populations of both the English and continental coasts of the English channel had very very similar populations and a continuous gene flow took place. So, I would expect especially close similarity genetically. I think we may be overfocussing on the beaker era at one end and the final part of the Bronze Age and Iron Age at the other and overlooking the period in between. Indeed I think there would have been a ripple effect of geneflow that effected with whole isles but with the degree being far less on the Atlantic side due to being downstream in the contact chain.

Finn
12-26-2019, 07:13 PM
yes that is the maritory group of cultures and the closeness sometimes is incredible. I fully expect that the populations of both the English and continental coasts of the English channel had very very similar populations and a continuous gene flow took place. So, I would expect especially close similarity genetically. I think we may be overfocussing on the beaker era at one end and the final part of the Bronze Age and Iron Age at the other and overlooking the period in between. Indeed I think there would have been a ripple effect of geneflow that effected with whole isles but with the degree being far less on the Atlantic side due to being downstream in the contact chain.


In this respect the position of Barbed Wire/ Elp is interesting.

R1b U106 is a (proto) Germanic marker. But it is still somewhat enigmatic. The (proto) Germanic gene pool is to be found in the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia (zenith is the Jastorf area). The R1b U106 spread in this area during BA. We have an early bird Rise98 2300-2000 BC in Scania. And than (very clear outside the proto-Germanic area) about 2000 BC a R1b U106 sample near Prague. The third early ancient R1b U106 sample is from Oostwoud North Holland 1800 BC, that is connected to the Elp culture.

What seems clear is that during the Bronze Age there must have bean fast spread of Y-DNA R1b U106 in the proto-Germanic area. This time is congruent with the so called Barbed Wire Beaker and the evolvements c.q derivatives /Sogel Wohlde/ Kummerkeramik summarized as Elp culture that effects the whole (proto) Germanic/ Jastorf area. On the one hand Barbed Wire Beaker (/Elp) seems to be a continuation of the Bell Beakers but on the other hand there were certain shifts like for example the grave position North-South in stead of East-West.

Regarding the fast spread of R1b U106 the Sogel Wohlde Warriors are a very potential candidate. In the proto-germanic Bronze Age area they are the most likely candidate for a rapid and dominant spread of their Y-DNA, they had a very high status seen by their iconic tumulus graves, you even can recognize in the nowadays landscape, about 3800 years later! They were very different from the man graves of the Bell Beaker period, other gear etc etc. Their origin is....???

Keep in mind: there is no single proof, no samples, so speculative and just educated guesses.
But I can't identify a group (like the Sogel Wohlde Warriors) that had such a position in the Elp culture and could potential (read well potential no proof) spread a Y-DNA type like R1b U106....So I bet they are the responsible ones for spreading R1b U106. But my view for a better one!

But one thing is clear: a map of the R1b U106 hotspot area is totally congruent with that of the Elp culture.

mihaitzateo
12-28-2019, 10:42 AM
Well,it is not during the Iron Age but is attested that at least some of the Gaulish Belgae tribes members fled to lowlands from SE Britain, during the Roman Empire conquest .

https://youtu.be/eIHRnhr9cCI

jadegreg
01-10-2020, 02:20 PM
Not wishing to derail the thread. Could I ask which study British IA M1489 is taken from. I'm presuming I0156 (Hinxton 1), I0160 (Hinxton 4) and I0789 (Linton) are taken from the East of England Saxon Study, but I've got no idea where M1489 is to be found (both academically and geographically)

tatals
01-10-2020, 05:09 PM
Not wishing to derail the thread. Could I ask which study British IA M1489 is taken from. I'm presuming I0156 (Hinxton 1), I0160 (Hinxton 4) and I0789 (Linton) are taken from the East of England Saxon Study, but I've got no idea where M1489 is to be found (both academically and geographically)

Here: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326



"Near Melton, East Yorkshire, a first century AD late Iron-Age settlement gave human remains predominantly of adult females and non-adults from which five individuals were sampled. From these, the best preserved individual with known date was M1489 (between 210 BC and 40 AD). Norton Bishopsmill, dates to 650–910 AD and was a Christian Anglo-Saxon cemetery excavated in the village of Norton, Teesside, northeast England."

K33
01-14-2020, 04:41 PM
Below is a 4-way model for areas associated with Insular Celtic languages.

CZE_Hallstatt, 775 BC: [Late] Proto-Celtic
IRL_BA, 1750 BC: Pre-Celtic NW Indo-European substrate (perhaps a "dead" brother branch to Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic?)
SWE_IA, 519 CE: "Germanic"
Rome_Imperial: Cretan/Calabrian-like

The Anglo-Saxon samples were omitted as they harbor obvious Celtic-related drift probably even predating their invasion of England. Thus the SWE_IA component covers not only Norse but also the genuinely "Germanic" portion of the Anglo-Saxon contribution.

https://i.imgur.com/jZkptVq.png

It doesn't surprise me that Brittany is the most genuinely "Celtic" region today, since you have the Gallic substrate plus an additional influx of Brythonic-speakers... ironically Ireland seems to be a relatively "late" refuge of Celtic language spread by elite dominance, contra to popular perception.

Jessie
01-17-2020, 11:20 AM
Below is a 4-way model for areas associated with Insular Celtic languages.

CZE_Hallstatt, 775 BC: [Late] Proto-Celtic
IRL_BA, 1750 BC: Pre-Celtic NW Indo-European substrate (perhaps a "dead" brother branch to Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic?)
SWE_IA, 519 CE: "Germanic"
Rome_Imperial: Cretan/Calabrian-like

The Anglo-Saxon samples were omitted as they harbor obvious Celtic-related drift probably even predating their invasion of England. Thus the SWE_IA component covers not only Norse but also the genuinely "Germanic" portion of the Anglo-Saxon contribution.

https://i.imgur.com/jZkptVq.png

It doesn't surprise me that Brittany is the most genuinely "Celtic" region today, since you have the Gallic substrate plus an additional influx of Brythonic-speakers... ironically Ireland seems to be a relatively "late" refuge of Celtic language spread by elite dominance, contra to popular perception.

Thanks for the model but I don't think IRL_BA which are the Rathlins are going to be good fits for all those populations. There is still a lot we don't know and the Celtic groups could have also been different. I know some of the Roman British models work much better for British people than myself for example so I think it is very difficult unless we get ancient models from all these populations. They are interesting to look at though.

This is what I got using that model.

Target: Jessie_scaled
Distance: 2.3834% / 0.02383432
66.8 IRL_BA
27.4 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
5.8 SWE_IA

Distance to: Jessie_scaled
0.03031179 IRL_BA
0.04045569 SWE_IA
0.05131057 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.16335011 ITA_Rome_Imperial

ITA_Rome_Imperial is very distant.

Ruderico
01-17-2020, 11:45 AM
Could try those Gaelic references from Iceland instead of Rathlin, and/or maybe the Levanluhta outlier as a proxy for Germanic, it usually works well with regular coordinates for that

K33
01-17-2020, 03:43 PM
Thanks for the model but I don't think IRL_BA which are the Rathlins are going to be good fits for all those populations. There is still a lot we don't know and the Celtic groups could have also been different. I know some of the Roman British models work much better for British people than myself for example so I think it is very difficult unless we get ancient models from all these populations. They are interesting to look at though.

The purpose of using IRL_BA is that its a pre-Italo-Celtic Indo-European sample. I'm not sure which of the Bell Beaker groups are ancestral to Hallstatt (or if they're all equally ancestral), but I am pretty sure that IRL_BA shares less drift with Central European Hallstatt people than the "contemporary" Central European Beakers do, by virtue of them being likely ancestral to Hallstatt.

Finn
01-17-2020, 05:04 PM
Could try those Gaelic references from Iceland instead of Rathlin, and/or maybe the Levanluhta outlier as a proxy for Germanic, it usually works well with regular coordinates for that

Ruderico I don't really get it why is Levantlutha in Finland is a proxy for Germanic? At his best it is some kind of Germanic outlier.....but still with doubts.

Dewsloth
01-17-2020, 05:16 PM
Ruderico I don't really get it why is Levantlutha in Finland is a proxy for Germanic? At his best it is some kind of Germanic outlier.....but still with doubts.

I think Lev. is more like coastal/counterclockwise Germanic (Saxon/Viking) and SWE IA is more continental/clockwise Goth-like.

anglesqueville
01-17-2020, 06:05 PM
Ruderico I don't really get it why is Levantlutha in Finland is a proxy for Germanic? At his best it is some kind of Germanic outlier.....but still with doubts.

Not Levänluhta, only their outlier. You may read this post from Eurogenes: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/12/on-trail-of-proto-uralic-speakers-work.html . I'm at the origin of the idea of using Levänluhta_o as a proxy for the early-Germanic speaking population in Scandinavia (source of the important proto-germanic and Germanic substrate in Saami). I thought also of Schrijver's theory, that makes the Germanic shifts raise in a bilingual Uralic+Pre-Germanic population in southern Scandinavia in the early Iron Age. (see Schrijver's "Language Contact and the Origins of the Germanic Languages", chapt. V)

Finn
01-17-2020, 06:11 PM
I think Lev. is more like coastal/counterclockwise Germanic (Saxon/Viking) and SWE IA is more continental/clockwise Goth-like.

This is what our Angles has figured out:
Target: FinnMom
Distance: 2.0161% / 0.02016124
Aggregated
47.8 England_IA
15.4 Sweden_IA
11.2 Levanluhta_IA_o
10.8 Baltic_EST_IA
9.6 Hallstatt_Bylany
5.2 Iberia_North_IA

Target: FinnDad
Distance: 1.6380% / 0.01637968
Aggregated
73.4 England_IA
15.4 Baltic_EST_IA
5.6 Balkans_IA
2.6 Hallstatt_Bylany
2.2 Sweden_IA
0.8 Iberia_North_IA

Target: Finn
Distance: 1.9008% / 0.01900843
Aggregated
66.8 England_IA
17.2 Baltic_EST_IA
9.0 Sweden_IA
6.0 Hallstatt_Bylany
1.0 Levanluhta_IA_o

I consider my mom more proto-Germanic and my father more Germanic, just a matter of ancestry (coastal vs inland North Dutch) so nothing more than a good guess.... but does this stress that Levanthula is Germanic IDUNO

Finn
01-17-2020, 06:16 PM
Not Levänluhta, only their outlier. You may read this post from Eurogenes: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/12/on-trail-of-proto-uralic-speakers-work.html . I'm at the origin of the idea of using Levänluhta_o as a proxy for the early-Germanic speaking population in Scandinavia (source of the important proto-germanic and Germanic substrate in Saami). I thought also of Schrijver's theory, that makes the Germanic shifts raise in a bilingual Uralic+Pre-Germanic population in southern Scandinavia in the early Iron Age. (see Schrijver's "Language Contact and the Origins of the Germanic Languages", chapt. V)

Ah now I read your text Angles!

Yes I'm aware of. But I can't cope it with my ancestry, my mother has some similarities but is more Elp or proto-germanic, my father is a mixture of coastal North Dutch so has more of the Anglo-Saxon stream. Wouldn't it be more plausible than my Dad has a higher Levanlutha. May be I'm wrong I have no real sources in this respect.

anglesqueville
01-17-2020, 06:32 PM
Many questions in what you write, my friend. Does a G25-nMonte (or Vahaduo) model give sensible arguments (in a sense or another)? Is a micro-sample like your parents a reliable basis of thought? (You know for long that my answer is "no"). That said my proposition of using Levänluhta_o as a proto-germanic proxy was nothing more than a proposition.

Finn
01-17-2020, 06:41 PM
Many questions in what you write, my friend. Does a G25-nMonte (or Vahaduo) model give sensible arguments (in a sense or another)? Is a micro-sample like your parents a reliable basis of thought? (You know for long that my answer is "no"). That said my proposition of using Levänluhta_o as a proto-germanic proxy was nothing more than a proposition.

With all the respect Angles but it are results from your modeling ......:behindsofa:

I don't no if it's rely reliable. I only know that my mother has really only ancestry from Hondsrug Drenthe. This is the most ancient population of the (North) Dutch:
https://www.dehondsrug.nl/verhalen/prehistorie/?lang=en

Of course we are all bric a brac, but I'm convinced that the changes that you find ancient genetics in my mothers DNA....of course a subjective., arbitrary remark, nevertheless not totally weird isn't it?

Finn
01-17-2020, 06:59 PM
Many questions in what you write, my friend. Does a G25-nMonte (or Vahaduo) model give sensible arguments (in a sense or another)? Is a micro-sample like your parents a reliable basis of thought? (You know for long that my answer is "no"). That said my proposition of using Levänluhta_o as a proto-germanic proxy was nothing more than a proposition.

May be this is not the whole truth but I guess there is something in it:

The origin of the Drenths
After the collapse of the Roman Empire the Northern Netherlands were largely depopulated. New Germanic tribes moved in as part of the great migrations in the 5th and the 6th centuries. The coastal areas were settled by Anglo-Saxon tribes (the later Frisians), while the Saxons rolled in from the east with their wagons and herds of livestock. Wherever they found good grazing in the open forest (a ‘loo’) for their herds they settled down and started the oldest villages that still exist today. After the land with three rivers they called themselves ‘Drenth’.


from the previous link....

May be this gives an indication more inland saxons (more ancients) in Drenthe and more seafaring Anglo-Saxons in Friesland/Groningen.

Finn
01-17-2020, 07:40 PM
I think Lev. is more like coastal/counterclockwise Germanic (Saxon/Viking) and SWE IA is more continental/clockwise Goth-like.

For what it's worth but I guess Lev. the outlier is more proto Germanic comes close to the inland Saxons of the higher grounds (Finn Mom), SWE IA is more Anglo-Saxon like (Finn Dad)!

So contrary to your conclusion.

Based on these distances, of course arbitrary the are comparing just a little amount of samples....

https://www.mupload.nl/img/1c0gaiiji.31.39.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/02m10pvksscg.35.40.png

Ruderico
01-17-2020, 08:03 PM
This is what our Angles has figured out:
Target: FinnMom
Distance: 2.0161% / 0.02016124
Aggregated
47.8 England_IA
15.4 Sweden_IA
11.2 Levanluhta_IA_o
10.8 Baltic_EST_IA
9.6 Hallstatt_Bylany
5.2 Iberia_North_IA

Target: FinnDad
Distance: 1.6380% / 0.01637968
Aggregated
73.4 England_IA
15.4 Baltic_EST_IA
5.6 Balkans_IA
2.6 Hallstatt_Bylany
2.2 Sweden_IA
0.8 Iberia_North_IA

Target: Finn
Distance: 1.9008% / 0.01900843
Aggregated
66.8 England_IA
17.2 Baltic_EST_IA
9.0 Sweden_IA
6.0 Hallstatt_Bylany
1.0 Levanluhta_IA_o

I consider my mom more proto-Germanic and my father more Germanic, just a matter of ancestry (coastal vs inland North Dutch) so nothing more than a good guess.... but does this stress that Levanthula is Germanic IDUNO

Those models are very overfitted though, Finn, some of those references are too similar to each other.

Finn
01-17-2020, 08:18 PM
I think Lev. is more like coastal/counterclockwise Germanic (Saxon/Viking) and SWE IA is more continental/clockwise Goth-like.

A comparison back to basics, the good old Saxons compare to Lev. and Sweden IA.
I say Sweden IA is by fare more 'Germanic' like....Lev stays a little bit outsider (and you in both case the Finns are along the closest).
But convince me otherwise....no problem!!! :)

https://www.mupload.nl/img/atswn4lub5edx.00.05.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/dktbmsrf037j.12.55.png

Finn
01-17-2020, 08:32 PM
Vahduo

Lev.
https://www.mupload.nl/img/gjt12bs.26.16.png

Swed IA
https://www.mupload.nl/img/73bzq4uc2.29.42.png

General is Swed IA closer.

Dewsloth
01-17-2020, 08:50 PM
For what it's worth but I guess Lev. the outlier is more proto Germanic comes close to the inland Saxons of the higher grounds (Finn Mom), SWE IA is more Anglo-Saxon like (Finn Dad)!

So contrary to your conclusion.

Based on these distances, of course arbitrary the are comparing just a little amount of samples....

https://www.mupload.nl/img/1c0gaiiji.31.39.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/02m10pvksscg.35.40.png

If you say so. I think of STR220 as pretty Germanic, but not so much western... and R31 as more western/Saxon/Viking like, but who knows?

See below:
35911

Finn
01-17-2020, 09:06 PM
If you say so. I think of STR220 as pretty Germanic, but not so much western... and R31 as more western/Saxon/Viking like, but who knows?

See below:
35911

Yes I see below and I see that Gaelic has more Lev than Finn Dad for example.
May be an overfitted model too....
And I son't say that Lev. outliers hasn't a proto-Germanic kind of connection.

But use it as a Germanic proxy like Ruderico does is IMO kind of weird, the Lev sample is in the Germanic world an (although related) outlier too.

anglesqueville
01-17-2020, 10:39 PM
With all the respect Angles but it are results from your modeling ......:behindsofa:

I don't no if it's rely reliable. I only know that my mother has really only ancestry from Hondsrug Drenthe. This is the most ancient population of the (North) Dutch:
https://www.dehondsrug.nl/verhalen/prehistorie/?lang=en

Of course we are all bric a brac, but I'm convinced that the changes that you find ancient genetics in my mothers DNA....of course a subjective., arbitrary remark, nevertheless not totally weird isn't it?

With all the friendship Leon, did you forget in which spirit this modelling was made? Sort of "OK let's put together all the Iron Age individuals we have, and see what happens". That was above all a perfect training material for Vahaduo, that had been just published. And once more I never said that what you believe about your mother is false, only that I find it doubtful that a so tiny and distal structure could be seriously detected with a PCA, even very carefully used. And even on this, I may be wrong.

Finn
01-18-2020, 06:28 AM
With all the friendship Leon, did you forget in which spirit this modelling was made? Sort of "OK let's put together all the Iron Age individuals we have, and see what happens". That was above all a perfect training material for Vahaduo, that had been just published. And once more I never said that what you believe about your mother is false, only that I find it doubtful that a so tiny and distal structure could be seriously detected with a PCA, even very carefully used. And even on this, I may be wrong.

It was no offense Angles! Basically I was wondering why Ruderico used Lev. as a proxy for Germanic. I had some doubts about that.....(even more combining it with the initial input of Dewsloth, bringing in Rise174). I guess doubts and debate are some kind of oxygen for a forum? And I know that I'm not the Reich lab (or something familiair). But based on some simple things like distance to the old Saxons (UK)....and in in the believe (based on ancestry) that my genetics could be labeled as pretty Germanic, I think that Lev is not so much a proxy for Germanic (may be more proxy 'proto-Germanic'). That's all not very earthshaking.

May be I'm waiting for a substantial reply of Ruderico why Lev. is so Germanic like that he deserves the label 'proxy'......

IMO it's like using a sample from Süd-Tirol as a proxy for Germanic :biggrin1: It's familiar but a 'proxy'? mmmm

anglesqueville
01-18-2020, 08:47 AM
It was no offense Angles! Basically I was wondering why Ruderico used Lev. as a proxy for Germanic. I had some doubts about that.....(even more combining it with the initial input of Dewsloth, bringing in Rise174). I guess doubts and debate are some kind of oxygen for a forum? And I know that I'm not the Reich lab (or something familiair). But based on some simple things like distance to the old Saxons (UK)....and in in the believe (based on ancestry) that my genetics could be labeled as pretty Germanic, I think that Lev is not so much a proxy for Germanic (may be more proxy 'proto-Germanic'). That's all not very earthshaking.

May be I'm waiting for a substantial reply of Ruderico why Lev. is so Germanic like that he deserves the label 'proxy'......

IMO it's like using a sample from Süd-Tirol as a proxy for Germanic :biggrin1: It's familiar but a 'proxy'? mmmm

I don't have very precise memories of the outputs of this "Iron Age calculator", but I seem to recall that the behaviour of this Levänluhta_outlier was far from being entirely satisfying as a proto-Germanic proxy. But the available individuals from this period for northern Europe are not many, and that was worth a try. I hope that the situation will change this year with the Ancestra Project. Don't worry about "offence" and things of that kind, we are the living proof that two guys can argue from time to time and stay friends (which is the most important).

Ruderico
01-18-2020, 08:49 AM
I already said why, it gives plausible figures in my models which use fewer and more distinct populations as references. I used it after reading Angles' opinion on the sample months ago.

Finn
01-18-2020, 09:03 AM
I already said why, it gives plausible figures in my models which use fewer and more distinct populations as references. I used it after reading Angles' opinion on the sample months ago.

It works in your models because it represents something 'proto-germanic' (corded related?) and that shows up in many (NW) Europeans....but as a Germanic proxy it fails to much on distance.....

Ruderico
01-18-2020, 09:10 AM
I don't think distances alone is a good way to judge that though, I have obviously poor distances to Irish samples but for some reason they work pretty well for my data. My belief is that N/NW Europeans and their ancestors are too similar for G25 and that the end result of using multiple of such populations as references isn't very satisfactory. This isn't surprising as there's a lot of common DNA in that part of the continent. qpAdm might be a better tool

Finn
01-18-2020, 11:20 AM
I don't think distances alone is a good way to judge that though, I have obviously poor distances to Irish samples but for some reason they work pretty well for my data. My belief is that N/NW Europeans and their ancestors are too similar for G25 and that the end result of using multiple of such populations as references isn't very satisfactory. This isn't surprising as there's a lot of common DNA in that part of the continent. qpAdm might be a better tool

May be that's the case indeed!!

Jessie
01-26-2020, 10:49 PM
If you say so. I think of STR220 as pretty Germanic, but not so much western... and R31 as more western/Saxon/Viking like, but who knows?

See below:
35911

This is my result using your model. Interesting to compare myself to the Gaelic samples. I left it at the default setting.

https://i.imgur.com/5VQEIg1.png

sktibo
02-01-2020, 12:13 AM
May be that's the case indeed!!

I really do think he is right about that

Finn
02-02-2020, 06:48 AM
I really do think he is right about that

Until now Jessie and I for example come very close in G25 only the Celtic vs Germanic seems to make a decisive difference as it is based on more recent mutations.....

anglesqueville
02-02-2020, 02:37 PM
Until now Jessie and I for example come very close in G25 only the Celtic vs Germanic seems to make a decisive difference as it is based on more recent mutations.....

FI there is no notion of "recent mutation" in autosomal genetics (unless maybe if rare alleles are used, which is not the case afaik). The only difference between Celtic vs Germanic and the casual G25 is the spreadsheet used.

Finn
02-02-2020, 06:37 PM
FI there is no notion of "recent mutation" in autosomal genetics (unless maybe if rare alleles are used, which is not the case afaik). The only difference between Celtic vs Germanic and the casual G25 is the spreadsheet used.

IMO this was a remark of the developer himself (in my words) the difference between G25 en Celtic vs Germanic is that in the hairsplitting job of the NW European amalgam the Celtic vs Germanic is more iron age and beyond ( 'recent' ;)

In G25 is Jessie almost as Anglo-Saxon as I am, in the Celtic vs Germanic she is firmly Irish and I firmly Germanic.

But correct t me If I'm wrong.

anglesqueville
02-02-2020, 07:05 PM
IMO this was a remark of the developer himself (in my words) the difference between G25 en Celtic vs Germanic is that in the hairsplitting job of the NW European amalgam the Celtic vs Germanic is more iron age and beyond ( 'recent' ;)

In G25 is Jessie almost as Anglo-Saxon as I am, in the Celtic vs Germanic she is firmly Irish and I firmly Germanic.

But correct t me If I'm wrong.

In my understanding of your words, that was wrong. But, well, it's not a tragedy! :biggrin1:

Finn
02-02-2020, 08:25 PM
In my understanding of your words, that was wrong. But, well, it's not a tragedy! :biggrin1:

Angles please explain why, because my impression is that in the case of jessie and the finn's they are mostly very close in G25 and not in GvC....so enlighten me.

anglesqueville
02-02-2020, 10:58 PM
Angles please explain why, because my impression is that in the case of jessie and the finn's they are mostly very close in G25 and not in GvC....so enlighten me.

When you talk about "young mutation", I assume you mean that a certain minor allele has appeared in a group recently. In fact, I do not see what other meaning could be given to these words, because an allele is in itself neither old nor young. Now, how to estimate the date of appearance of a minor allele in a group? By deducing from its frequency an estimate of the genetic drift it has suffered? Perhaps. But I would like to eat my hat if such considerations guided the development of the PCA Celtic vs Germanic. No, it was simply drawn up on a list of references in accordance with its purpose, and that has nothing to do with any notion of "young mutation". As for the Finn-Jessie case, I have no idea. Just a guess: I don't remember which are the eigenvalues of C vs G, but I'm ready to bet that this PCA is what I call a "flat PCA", which means that the variability is not concentrated on the 2 first PCs, but is diluted on the 4, or 5 (or more?) first PCs. In such a case the map PC1-PC2 is not completely informative, but I'm sure that you look only to this map as you say that you're not close to Jessie, right? You could perhaps compute some distances? But as I said, it's just a guess, and for this also I will eat my hat if I happen to be wrong.

Jessie
02-03-2020, 05:28 AM
When you talk about "young mutation", I assume you mean that a certain minor allele has appeared in a group recently. In fact, I do not see what other meaning could be given to these words, because an allele is in itself neither old nor young. Now, how to estimate the date of appearance of a minor allele in a group? By deducing from its frequency an estimate of the genetic drift it has suffered? Perhaps. But I would like to eat my hat if such considerations guided the development of the PCA Celtic vs Germanic. No, it was simply drawn up on a list of references in accordance with its purpose, and that has nothing to do with any notion of "young mutation". As for the Finn-Jessie case, I have no idea. Just a guess: I don't remember which are the eigenvalues of C vs G, but I'm ready to bet that this PCA is what I call a "flat PCA", which means that the variability is not concentrated on the 2 first PCs, but is diluted on the 4, or 5 (or more?) first PCs. In such a case the map PC1-PC2 is not completely informative, but I'm sure that you look only to this map as you say that you're not close to Jessie, right? You could perhaps compute some distances? But as I said, it's just a guess, and for this also I will eat my hat if I happen to be wrong.

Thanks for the explanation. From what I can remember David said the Celtic vs Germanic measures British and Irish specific drift.

Finn
02-03-2020, 07:42 PM
When you talk about "young mutation", I assume you mean that a certain minor allele has appeared in a group recently. In fact, I do not see what other meaning could be given to these words, because an allele is in itself neither old nor young. Now, how to estimate the date of appearance of a minor allele in a group? By deducing from its frequency an estimate of the genetic drift it has suffered? Perhaps. But I would like to eat my hat if such considerations guided the development of the PCA Celtic vs Germanic. No, it was simply drawn up on a list of references in accordance with its purpose, and that has nothing to do with any notion of "young mutation". As for the Finn-Jessie case, I have no idea. Just a guess: I don't remember which are the eigenvalues of C vs G, but I'm ready to bet that this PCA is what I call a "flat PCA", which means that the variability is not concentrated on the 2 first PCs, but is diluted on the 4, or 5 (or more?) first PCs. In such a case the map PC1-PC2 is not completely informative, but I'm sure that you look only to this map as you say that you're not close to Jessie, right? You could perhaps compute some distances? But as I said, it's just a guess, and for this also I will eat my hat if I happen to be wrong.

Thanks Angles. It is indeed what Jessie says and you suggest due to a specific genetic drift. The GvC is build around that. The technique that is involved is a black box for me I only can see that in the GvC Jessie and I are in the corners that correspondences with our 'paper trail' (Jessie firmly Irish, I'm in the 'original' Anglo-Saxon/Ingvaeonic like corner).

Finn
02-07-2020, 02:24 PM
When you talk about "young mutation", I assume you mean that a certain minor allele has appeared in a group recently. In fact, I do not see what other meaning could be given to these words, because an allele is in itself neither old nor young. Now, how to estimate the date of appearance of a minor allele in a group? By deducing from its frequency an estimate of the genetic drift it has suffered? Perhaps. But I would like to eat my hat if such considerations guided the development of the PCA Celtic vs Germanic. No, it was simply drawn up on a list of references in accordance with its purpose, and that has nothing to do with any notion of "young mutation". As for the Finn-Jessie case, I have no idea. Just a guess: I don't remember which are the eigenvalues of C vs G, but I'm ready to bet that this PCA is what I call a "flat PCA", which means that the variability is not concentrated on the 2 first PCs, but is diluted on the 4, or 5 (or more?) first PCs. In such a case the map PC1-PC2 is not completely informative, but I'm sure that you look only to this map as you say that you're not close to Jessie, right? You could perhaps compute some distances? But as I said, it's just a guess, and for this also I will eat my hat if I happen to be wrong.

The tombola of all ancient G25 samples makes in my case a very clear picture, close to the old Anglo-Saxons and other Ingvaeonic/North Sea Germanic dwellers.....

https://www.mupload.nl/img/69kw0t.32.44.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/1f9gayl1uh4.14.23.png

Is this my 'habitat'?

https://www.mupload.nl/img/1squhw6p.32.14.png