The Royal House of Stewart (L21>DF13>DF41>L745)

[rms2]

I thought I would start a thread in the brand new DF41 subforum on the Royal House of Stewart, family of a number of famous kings and queens of Scotland and England. The Stewart y-dna has been tested and confirmed DF41>L745. A number of Stewart men with valid paper trails to the royal Stewarts have tested L745+, including Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Scott,_10th_Duke_of_Buccleuch), direct y-dna descendant of King Charles II. Scott tested L745+ (S463+) with ScotlandsDNA. Scott's estate includes Drumlanrig Castle (http://www.drumlanrigcastle.co.uk/).

The Stewarts are particularly interesting, not only because of their fame, but because they claim descent from Alan fitz Flaad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_fitz_Flaad), an 11th-century Breton knight who was granted the barony of Oswestry in Shropshire by King Henry I of England.

[Alessio B. Bedini]

I had seen the project Stewart on FTDNA and is very interesting.

[rms2]

We have a couple of Corsican Stuarts (variant spelling) in the L21 and DF41 projects who are L745+. I am a little rusty on the details of their story now, but, as I recall, their y-dna ancestors were among those who fled to France and Spain following the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745-46. I think one of the lines in Spain took the surname Estuarte.

[Dubhthach]

Looks like a new SNP has been found by ScotlandsDNA that provides a deep spilt in Stewart L744/L745/L746 lineage. Larry posted the following link on the DF41 yahoo group:

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/2014files/scotnews2014/20140131-royalty.html

Relevant snippet here:


Sir John Stewart of Bonkyll died in 1298 fighting alongside William Wallace at the Battle of Falkirk, but his well-documented pedigree allowed ScotlandsDNA to carry out tests on his descendants, and those of his brother James, the 5th High Steward of Scotland and the grandfather of Robert II, the first Stewart king.

Dr Jim Wilson, the group’s chief scientist, carried out ancestry tests on the descendants of Sir John’s sons Richard and Angus, and of his brother, and discovered a marker that originated more than 700 years ago.

He said the exciting discovery was made possible by the remarkable pedigree of the Stewart family.

The results show that that the modern descendants of both sons of Sir John carry a Y chromosome marker S781+ that is absent in the descendants of James.

Dr Wilson added: “By a straightforward process of deduction that means that the marker arose in Sir John Stewart of Bonkyll, and not in his father. If it had, the descendants of James would also carry it, and they do not.” Having made the discovery, ScotlandsDNA checked its database of ancestry tests for men with the Stewart surname and found that 20 per cent of them share Sir John’s lineage, while 30 per cent are descended from his brother James.


That would put S781 as having arisen in 13th century.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[rms2]

I am still waiting for the Duke of Buccleuch to invite us all out to Drumlanrig Castle for a DF41+ reunion festival. ;)

[Joe B]

BritainsDNA press release about SNP S781.

Royal Scotland, Royal Stewart

Published: February 28, 2014

In a ground-breaking new study, we have for the first time identified a historical character with the beginning of a single male DNA lineage, the man who founded a branch of the Royal Stewart line.
http://www.britainsdna.com/about/press-releases

ROYAL SCOTLAND, ROYAL STEWART.pdf (http://www.britainsdna.com/files/press-release/Press%20Release:%20Royal%20Scotland%20Royal%20Stew art%20%5BBritainsDNA%2028-02-2014%5D.pdf)

It is precisely this sort of research that brings our history racing across the centuries. Historian,
Alistair Moffat, commented that in the year of the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn, thousands of
men can claim to be directly descended from the Stewarts who fought alongside Bruce and they can
directly identify with generations of famous figures who shaped Scotland, Britain and Ireland.

Dr Jim Wilson said “These findings arose from a combination of deep pedigrees and DNA data.
We can then use DNA alone to determine if people are descended in the male line from Sir John
of Bonkyll and in time other historical individuals – whether noblemen or commoners. This is the
start of a new era in genealogy, where we will be able to draw family trees without paper records.”

[Dubhthach]

I see that they have released the SNP position data with regards to Chromo 2. In case of S781 here's what's in the spreadsheet:

hg19 chromo2ID alias type ref alt
18538470 S781 S781 SNP G A

[rms2]

Larry Walker posted something a few days ago over at the DF41 Facebook group that I just got around to reading today. It pretty much blows the tradition of Stewart patrilineal descent from the Breton knight Alan Fitz Flaad out of the water. The Stewarts are descended from Alan Fitz Flaad, but that is along a matriline and not their patriline.

What is interesting is the alleged Stewart descent from Kenneth Mac Alpin, as follows:

I: Patrilinear Descent of Walter the High Steward

Note.- each succeeding generation is the son of the previous one.

24.Ere of Irish Dairiada (Dal naraide)
23.Fergus Mor Mae Ere, d.501
22.Domangart
21. K. Gabran of Dalriada, c.548-558
20.Aedan Mac Gabran, d.608, m. Ygerna de Acqs
19.Eochaid Buide (younger brother of the historical King Arthur)
18.Donald Brec
17.Domangart
16.Eochaid, d.696
15. Eochaid
14. Aed the White (Aed Find)
13.Eochaid the Poisonous, d.781
12. Alpin
11. K. Kenneth MacA]pin [sic]
10. K. Aed (Aeth), d.878
9.Doir, b.870-d.936
8.Murdoch, b.900-d.959
7.Ferguard, b.929-d.980
6.Kenneth, b.960-d.1030
5.Banquo, Thane of Lochaber, b.990-k.1043
4.Fleance, Thane of Lochaber, b.1020-d. c.1064
3.Walter, Thane of Lochaber, b. c.1045-d.1093
2.Alan of Lochaber, b. c. 1088-d. 1 153, father of-
1.WALTER FITZ ALAN, 1st HIGH STEWARD OF SCOTLAND, d. 1177

Here is the link that contains the rather convincing argument:

http://www.mckinneyandstewart.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2816&tree=McKinneyandStewart

[rms2]

There was some heated discussion of this over on that thread about the y-dna of the kings, chieftains, etc., of Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. It seems there are many claimants to descent from the kings of Dalriada, and not all of the claims can be correct, since the y haplogroups and/or subclades are different.

Be that as it may, what is interesting to me about this is the idea that the Stewarts descend in their y-dna line not from Alan Fitz Flaad the Breton knight, but from Alan of Lochaber, the Scottish noble.

[Dubhthach]

I see the first S781+ result in the DF41+ project has come, we already had a L744+/S781- result. In the case of the S781+ he belongs to the "Corsican Stuarts" who have been in Corsica since the mid 18th century.

Here are the genetic differences from the s781- Stewart
GD @ 67 STR's: 4
GD @ 111 STR's: 8

Quite a tight connection, given the age of the split. Though there could be some convergence on STR values due to random mutation. Be interesting to get some of the other L744+ who have a GD of 7-9 (at 67 markers) from the S781+ Stuart to test. From looking in the Stewart project on FTDNA there are at least two more S781+ confirmed men in it.


-Paul
(DF41+)

[rms2]

The Duchess of Alba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayetana_Fitz-James_Stuart,_18th_Duchess_of_Alba) died on 20 November 2014. Here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2844167/Hundreds-wellwishers-converge-Seville-cathedral-pay-respects-eccentric-Duchess-Alba-laid-rest.html) is an article on her massive funeral in Spain. She was a descendant of James II and thus a Stewart.


http://youtu.be/7Vj0j-H_OnY

[Dubhthach]

The Duchess of Alba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayetana_Fitz-James_Stuart,_18th_Duchess_of_Alba) died on 20 November 2014. Here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2844167/Hundreds-wellwishers-converge-Seville-cathedral-pay-respects-eccentric-Duchess-Alba-laid-rest.html) is an article on her massive funeral in Spain. She was a descendant of James II and thus a Stewart.


http://youtu.be/7Vj0j-H_OnY

Through the Duke of Berwick, who was a famous jacobite general and "bastard son" of James II. I believe in case of Duchess of Alba the surname of the family was thus "Fitzjames" (son of James)

The Duke of Grafton (descended from Charles II) bears surname "Fitzroy" (Son of the King). Just as well for the Stewarts that even if the main "Royal lineage" died out there were many "dalliances" (to use a term!) that have kept the lineage hale and hearty to this day.

-Paul

[rms2]

I am not trying to speak ill of the Duchess of Alba, but looking at photos of her reminded me of the ravages of time (and bad plastic surgery). She was beautiful when young but wasn't looking too good in recent photos, in large part due to plastic surgery that someone apparently badly botched.

I don't recall ever seeing plastic surgery that made a normal, otherwise healthy person look better. Plastic surgery is great for people with deformities or injuries who badly need reconstruction, but it doesn't seem to be of much use for people who just cannot accept the fact that they are getting old.

[ALEXANDRINA]

Paul,

Surely in this day and age we can dispense with the disparaging archaic term "Bastard" in this type of environment.
Wouldn't "Natural son" have been more appropriate. No need to quote ad-infinitum those less tolerant than ourselves: time, I argue, to re-word that term which can only be offensive to the many descendants of the line to which you refer.

Alexandrina.

[Dubhthach]

there's a reason why I have the term in inverted comma's I would have thought that was obvious, of course what's funny about this outbreak of PC'ness is my own son was born "out of wedlock" ;)

[Kwheaton]

I missed the earlier posting of this thread....and just happened upon it now. The information on the Sir John of Bonkyll branch and the attendant marker I found recently after following the earlier Royal Stewart project from a distance.

My 2nd great grandmother was a STEWART of this line and she claimed (or so family legend had it) that she was of the Royal Stewrat line and back in the 1800's received an inheritence of $3000 from a Scottish lawyer. Well I always viwed that with a spooful of salt but testing of her male ancestors's descendants has proved it.

Now I know the branch of the family but there's still a gap between my STEWART of Antrim, Ireland and his progenitor Sir John of Bonkyll. But maybe someday even this gap will be filled in with DNA testing....

Bastard or illegitimate may not be PC....but at least the fact of them has lost its pergorativeness.

[rms2]

I missed the earlier posting of this thread....and just happened upon it now. The information on the Sir John of Bonkyll branch and the attendant marker I found recently after following the earlier Royal Stewart project from a distance.

My 2nd great grandmother was a STEWART of this line and she claimed (or so family legend had it) that she was of the Royal Stewrat line and back in the 1800's received an inheritence of $3000 from a Scottish lawyer. Well I always viwed that with a spooful of salt but testing of her male ancestors's descendants has proved it.

Now I know the branch of the family but there's still a gap between my STEWART of Antrim, Ireland and his progenitor Sir John of Bonkyll. But maybe someday even this gap will be filled in with DNA testing....

Bastard or illegitimate may not be PC....but at least the fact of them has lost its pergorativeness.

We may be related. One of my maternal second great grandmothers was a Stewart, and I have Family Finder matches to several of the L746+ Stewarts (I have not checked on their S781 status).

I agree with you and don't see any reason not to use the venerable term bastard, especially when speaking of the various lines of old noble families. It's a useful term whose meaning is pretty clear.

[rms2]

The SNP ZZ52 was recently discovered by Alex Williamson. It is found in the male line of King Robert III of Scotland, one of the Stewarts. The line of SNPs runs like this: P312>L21>DF13>Z39589>DF41>S775>L746>Z38845>ZZ52.

From The Stewart Society:



Marker for male line descendants of King Robert III (1337-1406):
The results of the Big Y test for a documented male line descendant of Sir John Stewart of Blackhall & Ardgowan, d. c.1412, an illegitimate son of King Robert III, have now been received and analysed. Alex Williamson, author of The Big Tree http://www.ytree.net/ has identified a new SNP carried by this individual, which has been given the name ZZ52. Our two other Big Y test results, that is one for Earl Castle Stewart, a descendant of Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany, and the other for a documented descendant of Sir John Stewart, Sheriff of Bute, do not carry this SNP. Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany, and Sir John Stewart, Sheriff of Bute are both brothers of King Robert III. This means that ZZ52 must have occurred in Robert III or one of his male line descendants. In other words, ZZ52 is a distinct marker identifying descendants of Robert III.

The Stewart Society (http://www.stewartsociety.org/)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3612966/Are-descendant-Robert-Bruce-Unique-genetic-marker-Scottish-king-s-great-grandson.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-36396531

[MikeWhalen]

OMG-she is hideous with all that plastic surgery!
she looks alot like that crazy cat looking like woman in the US....what a horror show

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Duchess+of+Alba&rlz=1C1AFAB_enCA510CA520&tbm=isch&imgil=JcKYUsCMbD0QIM%253A%253BzpCBmxwjjAreIM%253Bh ttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.express.co.uk%25252Fne ws%25252Fuk%25252F460698%25252FHouse-of-Stuart-s-Duchess-of-Alba-could-be-next-Queen-of-Scotland-after-independence-vote&source=iu&pf=m&fir=JcKYUsCMbD0QIM%253A%252CzpCBmxwjjAreIM%252C_&usg=__kr0RNBw2IjAjyoP3o5MOElITK3E%3D&biw=1280&bih=706&ved=0ahUKEwiZrfbAwv3MAhXB6CYKHY36BrYQyjcIigE&ei=hfNJV9nWNcHRmwGN9ZuwCw#imgrc=JcKYUsCMbD0QIM%3A

and I think your right about PS in general-many that get it dont need it, and some get addicted to it and become nightmares


Mike

QUOTE=rms2;59639]I am not trying to speak ill of the Duchess of Alba, but looking at photos of her reminded me of the ravages of time (and bad plastic surgery). She was beautiful when young but wasn't looking too good in recent photos, in large part due to plastic surgery that someone apparently badly botched.

I don't recall ever seeing plastic surgery that made a normal, otherwise healthy person look better. Plastic surgery is great for people with deformities or injuries who badly need reconstruction, but it doesn't seem to be of much use for people who just cannot accept the fact that they are getting old.[/QUOTE]

[rms2]

OMG-she is hideous with all that plastic surgery!
she looks alot like that crazy cat looking like woman in the US....what a horror show . . .

I know, but she was a beauty as a young woman. It's a shame.

These Stewarts are blessed to have everything laid out for them genealogically and genetically and to have so much attention paid to their various lines. The rest of us just had ancestors who died for them at places like Culloden.

One of my maternal second great grandmothers was a Stewart, Orpha Stewart, and I have Family Finder matches with some of the L746+ Stewarts. I'm not sure if any of them is on the ZZ52+ line.

[Dubhthach]

ZZ52 is a good example of been able to match a SNP to specific individual due to wealth of genealogical material. As Robert III was the second stewart king, it gives us improved insight into the lineage.

S781 for example occurred over 100 years prior in parallel line, Robert III is direct descendant of James Stewart (5th High Steward of Scotland), S781 looks like it occured in his brother John Stewart of Bonkyll.

S781 became the royal line through marriage of Henry Stuart (Lord Darnley), to Mary, Queen of Scots. Their son was James VI of Scotland and future James I of England (and Ireland) -- and thus the Stewart kings of England were S781+



BANQUO Good sir, why do you start; and seem to fear
Things that do sound so fair? I' the name of truth,
Are ye fantastical, or that indeed
Which outwardly ye show? My noble partner
You greet with present grace and great prediction
Of noble having and of royal hope,
That he seems rapt withal: to me you speak not.
If you can look into the seeds of time,
And say which grain will grow and which will not,
Speak then to me, who neither beg nor fear
Your favours nor your hate.

First Witch Hail!

Second Witch Hail!

Third Witch Hail!

First Witch Lesser than Macbeth, and greater.

Second Witch Not so happy, yet much happier.

Third Witch Thou shalt get kings, though thou be none:
So all hail, Macbeth and Banquo!

First Witch Banquo and Macbeth, all hail!

[Kiln]

Stewart S781+ here.

S768-

[The Stewart]

Hello Stewart cousin.

Stewart S781+ here too.

[Chebogue]

TAKEN FROM
Paul, Sir James Balfour (Lord Lyon King of Arms) (editor) (1904) The Scots Peerage Founded on Wood’s Edition of Sir Robert Douglas’s Peerage of Scotland Containing an Historical and Genealogical Account of That Kingdom Volume 1 (pageS 9, 10, 11). Edinburgh, Scotland: David Douglas. Can be viewed online at
https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun01pauluoft/page/n7

The traditional account of the descent of the family from Banquo, Thane of Lochaber, and through him from the ancient kings of Scotland, is now generally discredited.

The research of recent years makes it more certain that the Stewarts or Stuarts are of Breton origin, descended from a family which held the office of Seneschal or Steward of Dol, under the Counts of Dol and Dinan in Brittany (to whom it is supposed they were related) in the eleventh century.

We know that Alan Fitz Flaad appears in the English records as Sheriff of Shropshire. He married a wealthy heiress, Avelina de Hesdin. They had three sons: [1] Jordan Fitz Alan, [2] William Fitz Alan, and [3] Walter Fitz Alan.

Interestingly, in a charter dated 1185, William (son of Alan) and Walter (son of Alan) appear as benefactors of the order of Knights Templars.

William Fitz Alan supported David I of Scotland in asserting the rights of the Empress Matilda to the English throne, and his brother Walter Fitz Alan seems to have accompanied David into Scotland; he appears to be identical with the Walter the son of Alan who appears as High Steward of Scotland during the reigns of David I and Malcolm IV.

[rms2]

Interesting! Thanks!

I don't really have a dog in the Stewart fight, but if the Alan of Lochaber argument has been discredited, I wonder what prompted it in the first place. A desire to appear to be as truly native Scots as possible?

[Webb]

TAKEN FROM
Paul, Sir James Balfour (Lord Lyon King of Arms) (editor) (1904) The Scots Peerage Founded on Wood’s Edition of Sir Robert Douglas’s Peerage of Scotland Containing an Historical and Genealogical Account of That Kingdom Volume 1 (pageS 9, 10, 11). Edinburgh, Scotland: David Douglas. Can be viewed online at
https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun01pauluoft/page/n7

The traditional account of the descent of the family from Banquo, Thane of Lochaber, and through him from the ancient kings of Scotland, is now generally discredited.

The research of recent years makes it more certain that the Stewarts or Stuarts are of Breton origin, descended from a family which held the office of Seneschal or Steward of Dol, under the Counts of Dol and Dinan in Brittany (to whom it is supposed they were related) in the eleventh century.

We know that Alan Fitz Flaad appears in the English records as Sheriff of Shropshire. He married a wealthy heiress, Avelina de Hesdin. They had three sons: [1] Jordan Fitz Alan, [2] William Fitz Alan, and [3] Walter Fitz Alan.

Interestingly, in a charter dated 1185, William (son of Alan) and Walter (son of Alan) appear as benefactors of the order of Knights Templars.

William Fitz Alan supported David I of Scotland in asserting the rights of the Empress Matilda to the English throne, and his brother Walter Fitz Alan seems to have accompanied David into Scotland; he appears to be identical with the Walter the son of Alan who appears as High Steward of Scotland during the reigns of David I and Malcolm IV.

Something else that is interestingly related. There is one Montgomery at Ytree who is in the DF27 Douglas cluster. The Montgomery’s accompanied the FitzAlan’s as vassals from Shropshire to Scotland. One of our members here is a Breton and is one block above the Douglas and Sutherland DF27 clusters.

[rms2]

Something else that is interestingly related. There is one Montgomery at Ytree who is in the DF27 Douglas cluster. The Montgomery’s accompanied the FitzAlan’s as vassals from Shropshire to Scotland. One of our members here is a Breton and is one block above the Douglas and Sutherland DF27 clusters.

Any evidence we're talking about the same Montgomerys?

That's one of those surnames spread out amongst a number of different y-dna haplogroups, at least judging from the Montgomery DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Montgomery?iframe=yresults).

Looks like figuring out who the authentic Norman Montgomerys were would be like trying to unravel the Gordian Knot.

[Webb]

Any evidence we're talking about the same Montgomerys?

That's one of those surnames spread out amongst a number of different y-dna haplogroups, at least judging from the Montgomery DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Montgomery?iframe=yresults).

Looks like figuring out who the authentic Norman Montgomerys were would be like trying to unravel the Gordian Knot.

I’m only going to make the observation that the J group is the largest group. The last time I made an observation that the DF27 Douglas group was by far the largest a very heated argument ensued about the Swedish branch of Douglas. And being that I’m DF27 and our numbers here are dwindling due to banishments, I feel I need to tread lightly.

[rms2]

I’m only going to make the observation that the J group is the largest group. The last time I made an observation that the DF27 Douglas group was by far the largest a very heated argument ensued about the Swedish branch of Douglas. And being that I’m DF27 and our numbers here are dwindling due to banishments, I feel I need to tread lightly.

Yeah, there's no telling which modern Montgomerys are the y-line descendants of the ones associated with the Stewarts.

I think the DF27 guys getting banned are mainly Iberian ethno-nationalists still mourning the loss of the LGM Refuge.

[rms2]

I don't feel like mounting a thesis or dissertation-type defense of this right now, but I think there is good reason to see DF41 as a Brythonic haplogroup descended from the original or at least early Beaker invaders of the British Isles. Thus the Stewarts were "double backers", i.e., people who went from Britain to Bretagne (Brittany) and back to Britain.

Not sure how that explains our Irish contingent, but otherwise DF41 in Britain looks like a predominantly Welsh and Scots phenomenon.

[hoxgi]

Supposedly there was a Norman noble and contemporary of William the Conqueror named Roger de Montgomerie who remained In Normandy to control William's estates for him before later moving to England himself. Two Montgomery branches in the Montgomery Surname Project claim descent from him.
One of these is a group of Montgomerys in the R-Z253 Project who share the same terminal SNP, BY35020; the SNP path is Z253>Z2534>ZZ5>A16>BY10>FGC53827>BY35020. Three have tested Big Y-500 and have an average of four private SNPs each.
There is also a very close STR match to these BY35020+ Montgomerys who has the surname Rodger and who is derived for Z253, but has not tested for downstream SNPs.

[rms2]

Supposedly there was a Norman noble and contemporary of William the Conqueror named Roger de Montgomerie who remained In Normandy to control William's estates for him before later moving to England himself. Two Montgomery branches in the Montgomery Surname Project claim descent from him.
One of these is a group of Montgomerys in the R-Z253 Project who share the same terminal SNP, BY35020; the SNP path is Z253>Z2534>ZZ5>A16>BY10>FGC53827>BY35020. Three have tested Big Y-500 and have an average of four private SNPs each.
There is also a very close STR match to these BY35020+ Montgomerys who has the surname Rodger and who is derived for Z253, but has not tested for downstream SNPs.

Could be, but claim is the key word. I wonder who is right.

[chey62]

I have a Narcissa McColphen in my tree; however, that last name does not exist. A Scottish Clan member told me that it could very well be McAlpin as when they emigrated here, they didn't care about spelling and the way the name is pronounced, McAlpin could very well have been misspelled in writing as McColphen. What would be your take on this?

[JonikW]

I have a Narcissa McColphen in my tree; however, that last name does not exist. A Scottish Clan member told me that it could very well be McAlpin as when they emigrated here, they didn't care about spelling and the way the name is pronounced, McAlpin could very well have been misspelled in writing as McColphen. What would be your take on this?

Sounds reasonable to me for one. I've seen similar things on UK censuses.

[rms2]

Sounds reasonable to me for one. I've seen similar things on UK censuses.

I agree. McColphen sounds like someone mishearing McAlpin, or slurring it after having had one or two too many.

[TigerMW]

... I think there is good reason to see DF41 as a Brythonic haplogroup descended from the original or at least early Beaker invaders of the British Isles. Thus the Stewarts were "double backers", i.e., people who went from Britain to Bretagne (Brittany) and back to Britain.

Not sure how that explains our Irish contingent, but otherwise DF41 in Britain looks like a predominantly Welsh and Scots phenomenon.
I don't know the answers on these either but I think there is a good chance that R-L21 in Bretagne consists of all three - "double backers", "old homers" and "Irish immigrants."
Bretagne and Normandy are so close to Britain that it's hard to believe there wasn't some R-L21 from nearly the start of R-L21. Of course, we have the historic reports of Britons fleeing Britain for Bretagne during the Anglo-Saxon times but those people could have just been finding refuge with the old clan. After the Anglo-Saxon times there were other possible cases of folks from the British Isles going over to France.
The other thing to keep in mind is U106's pattern. There is a pretty hard breakpoint of U106 dropping off at Calais.

[rms2]

I don't know the answers on these either but I think there is a good chance that R-L21 in Bretagne consists of all three - "double backers", "old homers" and "Irish immigrants."
Bretagne and Normandy are so close to Britain that it's hard to believe there wasn't some R-L21 from nearly the start of R-L21. Of course, we have the historic reports of Britons fleeing Britain for Bretagne during the Anglo-Saxon times but those people could have just been finding refuge with the old clan. After the Anglo-Saxon times there were other possible cases of folks from the British Isles going over to France.
The other thing to keep in mind is U106's pattern. There is a pretty hard breakpoint of U106 dropping off at Calais.

I don't disagree, but I was talking about DF41 and the Stewarts, not the much broader L21 haplogroup.

[rms2]

At FTDNA, on Family Finder, I have some Stewart matches who are in the Royal Stewart y-dna line (R1b-L746), but I never could tell if they share a common ancestor with me on my Stewart line, which I come by via a second great grandmother on my mom's side, Orpha Eliza Stewart, b. 1842 in McKenzie, Carroll, Tennessee, or on some other line.

Now I have a new male Stewart match at Ancestry, but he hasn't answered the message I recently sent, and I don't know his y-dna haplogroup, since Ancestry doesn't report that. Well, I just noticed a male Stewart match at 23andMe, so I sent him a connection request and a message. 23andMe reports his y-dna haplogroup as R-S775, which is interesting, because S775 is just one step upstream of L746, which is the Royal Stewart SNP. So, I'm guessing this Stewart match of mine is also really R1b-L746 but that 23andMe stops its y-dna reporting on that line at S775.

Hope this gentleman answers my message.

[rms2]

At FTDNA, on Family Finder, I have some Stewart matches who are in the Royal Stewart y-dna line (R1b-L746), but I never could tell if they share a common ancestor with me on my Stewart line, which I come by via a second great grandmother on my mom's side, Orpha Eliza Stewart, b. 1842 in McKenzie, Carroll, Tennessee, or on some other line.

Now I have a new male Stewart match at Ancestry, but he hasn't answered the message I recently sent, and I don't know his y-dna haplogroup, since Ancestry doesn't report that. Well, I just noticed a male Stewart match at 23andMe, so I sent him a connection request and a message. 23andMe reports his y-dna haplogroup as R-S775, which is interesting, because S775 is just one step upstream of L746, which is the Royal Stewart SNP. So, I'm guessing this Stewart match of mine is also really R1b-L746 but that 23andMe stops its y-dna reporting on that line at S775.

Hope this gentleman answers my message.

I was just looking at ThruLines at Ancestry and found another Stewart male match. This one shares descent with me from John Stewart, b. 1738, so I sent him a message to see if he knows his y-dna haplogroup.

Also just noticed a match at Ancestry who is also a match for me at FTDNA, and this one I know is R1b-L746. His tree is private, but he shares matches with me who share common Stewart ancestors with me. One of these matches is the male Stewart I mentioned in my last post, the one who never answered the message I sent him. He shares descent with me from Robert Stewart, b. 1774, the son of the John Stewart mentioned above.

[linthos]

Just came across this thread. Never even thought about these lines as possibilities, but I do have one Stewart in my tree - a 4th great grandmother named Mary Stewart born in 1790, in Edinburgh. I haven't traced that line back any further as of yet.

Editing to add: I do match a number of folks with the surname Stewart, but would have some work to do to see if it's through other connections or that one.

[rms2]

Just came across this thread. Never even thought about these lines as possibilities, but I do have one Stewart in my tree - a 4th great grandmother named Mary Stewart born in 1790, in Edinburgh. I haven't traced that line back any further as of yet.

Editing to add: I do match a number of folks with the surname Stewart, but would have some work to do to see if it's through other connections or that one.

If you've tested with 23andMe, run the name Stewart against your list of relatives and then check their y-dna haplogroups, if they let you see them (not all do). If you're on Ancestry, take a look at ThruLines and see if you have any male Stewart matches you can message and ask about their y-dna. I've done that, but no one is answering the message, which is why I haven't been able to confirm the y-dna haplogroup of my Stewart line.

[JonikW]

This isn't on the Y line but might be of interest to Stewart aficionados. I'm descended from Walter Stewart, 6th High Steward of Scotland, on a Scottish side that married into my Derbyshire Y family in the 18th century. This was a Grossett whose great grandmother was Helen Stewart (married 1672), a daughter of Alexander Stewart 4th Lord Blantyre. Problem is I've got Stewart matches everywhere so have no Idea whether this line is still detectable in a commercial test... I've also got the Muirheads on this line, as celebrated by Sir Walter Scott. The only thing I've inherited is an original 18th century picture of an ancestor at Culloden, which I wrote about for Clan Muirhead in the US last year. It takes pride of place on the wall. He fought for the Government side (like most people around Glasgow), but the picture also documents an ancestor of his who fell fighting for the Scottish king at Flodden. This line interests me more than most and I'd love to know if I have any matches through them today.