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Anglecynn
01-22-2014, 03:16 PM
Interesting, i bought access to the article, here are the frequencies for each location:
I'll make some of my own pie charts to better understand it a little later.
From:
Y-chromosomal DNA analysis in French male lineages
Authors: E. Ramos-Luis A. Blanco-Verea M. Bri´on V. Van
Huffel P. S´anchez-Diz A. Carracedo

Alsace (Strasbourg):

BD (SRY10831.1): 0%
E* (M96): 0%
E1b1b1* (M35): 0%
E1b1b1a (M78): 6.17%
E1b1b1b (M81): 0%
E1b1b1c* (M123): 0%
E1b1b1c1 (M34): 3.7%
F* (M213): 0%
G (M201): 3.7%
I* (M170): 7.41%
I2a2 (M26): 1.23%
J*(M304): 1.23%
J1a (M62): 0%
J2 (M172): 8.64%
K*(M9): 1.23%
L (M22): 0%
N1c (Tat): 0%
P* (92R7): 0%
R1* (M173): 0%
R1a (SRY10831.2): 3.7%
R1b1* (P25): 0%
R1b1b2* (M269): 19.75%
R1b1b2a1* (U106): 14.81%
R1b1b2a1a (U198): 0%
R1b1b2a2d (SRY2627): 1.23%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%
R1b1b2a2g (U152): 22.22%
T (M70): 4.94%


Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand):
BD (SRY10831.1): 0%
E* (M96): 2.25%
E1b1b1* (M35): 0%
E1b1b1a (M78): 3.37%
E1b1b1b (M81): 5.62%
E1b1b1c* (M123): 0%
E1b1b1c1 (M34): 1.12%
F* (M213): 0%
G (M201): 8.99%
I* (M170): 3.37%
I2a2 (M26): 1.12%
J*(M304): 3.37%
J1a (M62): 0%
J2 (M172): 7.87%
K*(M9): 1.12%
L (M22): 0%
N1c (Tat): 0%
P* (92R7): 0%
R1* (M173): 0%
R1a (SRY10831.2): 5.62%
R1b1* (P25): 0%
R1b1b2* (M269): 31.46%
R1b1b2a1* (U106): 3.37%
R1b1b2a1a (U198): 0%
R1b1b2a2d (SRY2627): 1.12%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%
R1b1b2a2g (U152): 16.85%
T (M70): 3.37%

Bretagne (Rennes):
BD (SRY10831.1): 0%
E* (M96): 0%
E1b1b1* (M35): 0%
E1b1b1a (M78): 0%
E1b1b1b (M81): 0%
E1b1b1c* (M123): 0%
E1b1b1c1 (M34): 0%
F* (M213): 0%
G (M201): 1.74%
I* (M170): 12.17%
I2a2 (M26): 0.87%
J*(M304): 0.87%
J1a (M62): 0%
J2 (M172): 2.61%
K*(M9): 0%
L (M22): 0%
N1c (Tat): 0%
P* (92R7): 0%
R1* (M173): 0%
R1a (SRY10831.2): 0.87%
R1b1* (P25): 0%
R1b1b2* (M269): 68.7%
R1b1b2a1* (U106): 3.48%
R1b1b2a1a (U198): 0%
R1b1b2a2d (SRY2627): 2.61%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%
R1b1b2a2g (U152): 6.09%
T (M70): 0%


Île-de-France (Paris):
BD (SRY10831.1): 0%
E* (M96): 10.99%
E1b1b1* (M35): 0%
E1b1b1a (M78): 4.4%
E1b1b1b (M81): 5.49%
E1b1b1c* (M123): 0%
E1b1b1c1 (M34): 1.1%
F* (M213): 0%
G (M201): 4.4%
I* (M170): 6.59%
I2a2 (M26): 1.1%
J*(M304): 1.1%
J1a (M62): 0%
J2 (M172): 5.49%
K*(M9): 0%
L (M22): 0%
N1c (Tat): 1.1%
P* (92R7): 0%
R1* (M173): 0%
R1a (SRY10831.2): 2.2%
R1b1* (P25): 1.1%
R1b1b2* (M269): 31.87%
R1b1b2a1* (U106): 7.69%
R1b1b2a1a (U198): 0%
R1b1b2a2d (SRY2627): 1.1%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%
R1b1b2a2g (U152): 14.29%
T (M70): 0%


Midi-Pyrénées (Toulouse):
BD (SRY10831.1): 0%
E* (M96): 1.49%
E1b1b1* (M35): 1.49%
E1b1b1a (M78): 2.99%
E1b1b1b (M81): 1.49%
E1b1b1c* (M123): 0%
E1b1b1c1 (M34): 1.49%
F* (M213): 0%
G (M201): 4.48%
I* (M170): 8.96%
I2a2 (M26): 1.49%
J*(M304): 4.48%
J1a (M62): 0%
J2 (M172): 7.46%
K*(M9): 0%
L (M22): 0%
N1c (Tat): 0%
P* (92R7): 0%
R1* (M173): 0%
R1a (SRY10831.2): 2.99%
R1b1* (P25): 1.49%
R1b1b2* (M269): 31.34%
R1b1b2a1* (U106): 4.48%
R1b1b2a1a (U198): 0%
R1b1b2a2d (SRY2627): 7.46%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 1.49%
R1b1b2a2g (U152): 13.43%
T (M70): 1.49%
Seems like an errant M222 in Toulouse :).
Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille):
BD (SRY10831.1): 0%
E* (M96): 1.43%
E1b1b1* (M35): 1.43%
E1b1b1a (M78): 5.71%
E1b1b1b (M81): 4.29%
E1b1b1c* (M123): 0%
E1b1b1c1 (M34): 0%
F* (M213): 0%
G (M201): 7.14%
I* (M170): 5.71%
I2a2 (M26): 4.29%
J*(M304): 0%
J1a (M62): 0%
J2 (M172): 5.71%
K*(M9): 0%
L (M22): 0%
N1c (Tat): 0%
P* (92R7): 0%
R1* (M173): 0%
R1a (SRY10831.2): 4.29%
R1b1* (P25): 2.86%
R1b1b2* (M269): 28.57%
R1b1b2a1* (U106): 8.57%
R1b1b2a1a (U198): 0%
R1b1b2a2d (SRY2627): 2.86%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%
R1b1b2a2g (U152): 17.14%
T (M70): 0%

Provence-Alpes-Côte d’Azur (Marseille):
BD (SRY10831.1): 2.22%
E* (M96): 0%
E1b1b1* (M35): 2.22%
E1b1b1a (M78): 8.89%
E1b1b1b (M81): 2.22%
E1b1b1c* (M123): 0%
E1b1b1c1 (M34): 0%
F* (M213): 0%
G (M201): 6.67%
I* (M170): 6.67%
I2a2 (M26): 2.22%
J*(M304): 0%
J1a (M62): 0%
J2 (M172): 6.67%
K*(M9): 0%
L (M22): 0%
N1c (Tat): 0%
P* (92R7): 4.44%
R1* (M173): 0%
R1a (SRY10831.2): 0%
R1b1* (P25): 2.22%
R1b1b2* (M269): 37.78%
R1b1b2a1* (U106): 0%
R1b1b2a1a (U198): 0%
R1b1b2a2d (SRY2627): 4.44%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%
R1b1b2a2g (U152): 11.11%
T (M70): 2.2%

Dubhthach
01-22-2014, 03:51 PM
Interesting, i bought access to the article, here are the frequencies for each location:
I'll make some of my own pie charts to better understand it a little later.
From:
Y-chromosomal DNA analysis in French male lineages
Authors: E. Ramos-Luis A. Blanco-Verea M. Bri´on V. Van
Huffel P. S´anchez-Diz A. Carracedo
<<--snip--->>



For such a recent study (December 2013) it's a fairly piss-poor selection of SNP's. What no P312? No L21? (let alone No DF13?), No DF27? Ridiculous, no wonder the M269* figure is at 68.7% in Brittany!

Still thanks for posting the summary.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Mikewww
01-22-2014, 03:57 PM
I'm opening this thread up as it is an important conversation so I'll move some related posts here.

Anglecynn
01-22-2014, 04:03 PM
Thanks for moving it. :)

I'll upload some pie charts and things later on, there are some in the article, but they're not so clear.

Mikewww
01-22-2014, 04:11 PM
Interesting, i bought access to the article, here are the frequencies for each location:
...
From:
Y-chromosomal DNA analysis in French male lineages
Authors: E. Ramos-Luis A. Blanco-Verea M. Bri´on V. Van
Huffel P. S´anchez-Diz A. Carracedo

Alsace (Strasbourg):
R1b1b2* (M269): 19.75%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%

Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand):
R1b1b2* (M269): 31.46%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%

Bretagne (Rennes):
R1b1b2* (M269): 68.7%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%

Île-de-France (Paris):
R1b1b2* (M269): 31.87%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%

Midi-Pyrénées (Toulouse):
R1b1b2* (M269): 28.57%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%

Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille):
R1b1b2* (M269): 28.57%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%

Provence-Alpes-Côte d’Azur (Marseille):
R1b1b2* (M269): 37.78%
R1b1b2a2e (M222): 0%


The R1b1b2* (M269*) in the above represents Z2103+, L51*, L11*, P312*, DF99 and DF27xSRY2627 to go along with L21xM222.

M222 is basically negligible so we can look at the R1b1b* as the maximums for L21 in these regions. Z2103, L51*, L11*, DF99 probably only take up a couple of percentage points. That's a bit dangerous to assume, though. I don't think P312* is too big but that is also a bit dangerous.

That leaves primarily DF27xSRY2627 to deal with estimate/project the remainder being L21.

Dubhthach
01-22-2014, 04:20 PM
My feeling is that DF27 makes up a big chunk of that M269*. If we look at busby there was significant chunks of what he defined as P312* (xL21, xU152, xSRY2627). In this day and age publishing a report like the above which doesn't even keep up with Busby (2011) is rather poor form if you ask me.

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
01-22-2014, 04:24 PM
I'm running out of time to be on the computer this morning, so I don't have time to look things up, but wasn't Ramos-Luis et al updated with, at least, L21 results?

Maybe I am misremembering.

Mikewww
01-22-2014, 04:28 PM
I'm running out of time to be on the computer this morning, so I don't have time to look things up, but wasn't Ramos-Luis et al updated with, at least, L21 results?

Maybe I am misremembering.
This is from their December 2013 report/update or whatever it was. This is only a few weeks old as far as publishing goes. No L21 in sight that I can see, just testing for M222.

They sorely need to test for L21 and DF27, at the least.

Dubhthach
01-22-2014, 04:51 PM
I downloaded the Busby spreadsheet and created the following PNG, deleted some of the columns just left what I felt were relevant, beats typing it out anyways!

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/france2.png

If that appears bit squashed browse directly to image here:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/france2.png

-Paul
(DF41+)

alan
01-22-2014, 04:58 PM
Feels like someone should be spinning a truncheon and saying 'nothing to see here'

palamede
01-22-2014, 05:22 PM
Excentric values

Alsace (Strasbourg):

E1b1b1c1 (M34): 3.7%
K*(M9): 1.23%
T (M70): 4.94%

Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand):

E* (M96): 2.25%
E1b1b1b (M81): 5.62%
G (M201): 8.99%
J*(M304): 3.37%
K*(M9): 1.12%
T (M70): 3.37%

Bretagne (Rennes):

Île-de-France (Paris):

E* (M96): 10.99%
E1b1b1b (M81): 5.49%
N1c (Tat): 1.1%

Midi-Pyrénées (Toulouse):

E* (M96): 1.49%[/B]
J*(M304): 4.48%[/B]

Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille):

E* (M96): 1.43%
E1b1b1* (M35): 1.43%
E1b1b1a (M78): 5.71%
E1b1b1b (M81): 4.29%
G (M201): 7.14%

Provence-Alpes-Côte d’Azur (Marseille):

BD (SRY10831.1): 2.22%
E1b1b1* (M35): 2.22%
P* (92R7): 4.44%

Anglecynn
01-22-2014, 05:35 PM
Feels like someone should be spinning a truncheon and saying 'nothing to see here'

It still seems pretty useful, despite the glaring oversight with them not testing for some key markers, but at least we have a good idea of some others too. I guess for now it'll just have to be inferred as Mikewww says. Shame but still useful.

Bretagne and Alsace seem to be more different than the others, but there's a number of things i find interesting, like in Bretagne I is quite high (about 12%) and much higher than all the others, but R1a and U106 are very negligible, and in Alsace U152 is the top dog followed by U106, which makes sense.

Anglecynn
01-22-2014, 05:43 PM
Excentric values

Alsace (Strasbourg):

E1b1b1c1 (M34): 3.7%
K*(M9): 1.23%
T (M70): 4.94%

Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand):

E* (M96): 2.25%
E1b1b1b (M81): 5.62%
G (M201): 8.99%
J*(M304): 3.37%
K*(M9): 1.12%
T (M70): 3.37%

Bretagne (Rennes):

Île-de-France (Paris):

E* (M96): 10.99%
E1b1b1b (M81): 5.49%
N1c (Tat): 1.1%

Midi-Pyrénées (Toulouse):

E* (M96): 1.49%[/B]
J*(M304): 4.48%[/B]

Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille):

E* (M96): 1.43%
E1b1b1* (M35): 1.43%
E1b1b1a (M78): 5.71%
E1b1b1b (M81): 4.29%
G (M201): 7.14%

Provence-Alpes-Côte d’Azur (Marseille):

BD (SRY10831.1): 2.22%
E1b1b1* (M35): 2.22%
P* (92R7): 4.44%

Yeah i thought some of them were a little unusual.

Anglecynn
01-22-2014, 06:05 PM
Pie charts, i grouped some things together just for a general overview:

Rennes:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/FranceBretagne.png
Lille:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/FranceLille.png
Paris:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/FranceParis.png
Strasbourg:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/FranceStrasbourge.png
Clermont-Ferrand:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/FranceClermont-Ferrand.png
Marseille:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/FranceMarseille.png
Toulouse:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/FranceToulouse.png

ADW_1981
01-22-2014, 06:13 PM
A lot of my father's Huguenot ancestry comes from Ile De France and Nord Pas-De-Calais.

R.Rocca
01-22-2014, 07:15 PM
Anglecynn, you should try getting your money back. As we discussed when this paper came out, this is just a re-publishing of data that is already 3-y years old. Busby already broke it down further by testing L21.

Anglecynn
01-22-2014, 07:25 PM
Anglecynn, you should try getting your money back. As we discussed when this paper came out, this is just a re-publishing of data that is already 3-y years old. Busby already broke it down further by testing L21.

I still find it pretty interesting though, and useful.

rms2
01-22-2014, 07:30 PM
Anglecynn, you should try getting your money back. As we discussed when this paper came out, this is just a re-publishing of data that is already 3-y years old. Busby already broke it down further by testing L21.

That is probably what I was remembering, but I thought Ramos-Luis himself and his compatriots had published an improved update.

Gray Fox
01-22-2014, 07:52 PM
If, and that's a big IF, my connection across the channel proves fruitful, it is in the general area of Rennes.

Celtarion
01-22-2014, 09:14 PM
I downloaded the Busby spreadsheet and created the following PNG, deleted some of the columns just left what I felt were relevant, beats typing it out anyways!

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/france2.png

If that appears bit squashed browse directly to image here:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/france2.png

-Paul
(DF41+)

I don't like how the population is displayed on the image, I think it is clearly misrepresented and it does not give a clear picture of the area.
Is there a reason as to know why we don't see the subclades in more details ?

Anglecynn
01-22-2014, 09:31 PM
I downloaded the Busby spreadsheet and created the following PNG, deleted some of the columns just left what I felt were relevant, beats typing it out anyways!

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/france2.png

If that appears bit squashed browse directly to image here:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/france2.png

-Paul
(DF41+)

Do you have a link to that spreadsheet? I remember seeing it before but can't remember where to get it.

Dubhthach
01-22-2014, 09:39 PM
I don't like how the population is displayed on the image, I think it is clearly misrepresented and it does not give a clear picture of the area.
Is there a reason as to know why we don't see the subclades in more details ?

That's how the data is presented in the spreadsheet. The sample size for each region is signified by n. Those are the only subclades tested in the study, see the "Data Supplement"

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.abstract

Data Supplement page:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044/suppl/DC1

For the process of making it easier to create a image of results I removed the following colums:
European Region, STR's (Yes or No), Frequency Plot?, Longitude, Latitude

I also set excel to format the fields to show percentages instead of decimal points (eg. 40.00% instead of 0.400 ), this was specifically just the set of samples that have origin in France (code: FRA-)

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
12-20-2014, 02:43 AM
I was bored this evening, so I decided to take a look at the French Heritage Project's Y-DNA Results pages to see if there was anything new there. I found a number of new R-L21 predictions and a couple of new confirmed L21+ results. Of course, for several years there have been quite a few L21+ guys in that project; I'm just talking about some new ones I had not noticed before, especially since FTDNA only started predicting L21+ status since I quit really checking the French Heritage Project regularly.

Anyway, here are the new French L21+ and predicted L21+ folks:

Blouin (kit 156911; confirmed L21+)
Boyer (kit 161120)
Crapeau (kit N8440)
Ducharme (kit 139351)
Feunteun (kit 117607)
Grandbois (kit 131104)
Graveron (kit 92044)
Guerin (kit 75353)
Henrichon (kit 52965; confirmed L21+)
Vaillancourt (kit 159607)

In the old days, back when we had some money in our General Fund, I would have recruited the predictions for L21 testing.

I might have overlooked some, but I don't think so. I just thought this might be interesting.

Mikewww
12-20-2014, 03:17 AM
Thanks Richard.I will look at the French project for those you've spotted. I will pull in those with 67 or more markers and see if they have matches in the L21 project.

alan
12-20-2014, 03:21 AM
I was bored this evening, so I decided to take a look at the French Heritage Project's Y-DNA Results pages to see if there was anything new there. I found a number of new R-L21 predictions and a couple of new confirmed L21+ results. Of course, for several years there have been quite a few L21+ guys in that project; I'm just talking about some new ones I had not noticed before, especially since FTDNA only started predicting L21+ status since I quit really checking the French Heritage Project regularly.

Anyway, here are the new French L21+ and predicted L21+ folks:

Blouin (kit 156911; confirmed L21+)
Boyer (kit 161120)
Crapeau (kit N8440)
Ducharme (kit 139351)
Feunteun (kit 117607)
Grandbois (kit 131104)
Graveron (kit 92044)
Guerin (kit 75353)
Henrichon (kit 52965; confirmed L21+)
Vaillancourt (kit 159607)

In the old days, back when we had some money in our General Fund, I would have recruited the predictions for L21 testing.

I might have overlooked some, but I don't think so. I just thought this might be interesting.

Wonder if the surnames would help pinpoint locations in France. I know nothing about French surnames other than what I can find googling.

alan
12-20-2014, 03:26 AM
I no longer am optimistic about understanding much about L21 from its current distribution. England is probably a very good example of how much 2000 years of history can diminish L21 in areas which saw waves of later settlement. If so then at least part of the same process would have happened on the continent. In fact the distribution in France kind of echos that in the isles with it looking like it survives best furthest away from the paths of migration. If L21 was dominant in east Cambridgeshire in pre-Roman times as ancient DNA suggests then it has been enormously diminished since then in SE England although still represents a significant substrate.

rms2
12-20-2014, 03:36 AM
If you want to check on those surnames, here (http://www.geopatronyme.com/) is a French site that seems to work pretty well.

CelticGerman
12-20-2014, 06:23 AM
Wonder if the surnames would help pinpoint locations in France. I know nothing about French surnames other than what I can find googling.

You could add the surname Durand to your L21+ list. It's a cousin of my father-in-law with origins in Vendée/Western France. He was tested for 12 markers only (exactly AMH), for our real interest was the mt haplogroup, which is of interest for my wife's ancestry.

CelticGerman
12-20-2014, 06:37 AM
If you want to check on those surnames, here (http://www.geopatronyme.com/) is a French site that seems to work pretty well.

I can confirm. If I enter the different surnames of my wife's ancestry in the Geopatronyme tool, in most cases there is a clear concentration in the region of origin of the oldest known ancestor, for example Berthelon from Saône-et-Loire/Burgundy or Neiter from Moselle/Lorraine). Similar tools for Germany give good results as well. The current distribution of surnames is not a proof for the place of origin as such, but a very good indicator.

rms2
12-20-2014, 03:12 PM
You could add the surname Durand to your L21+ list. It's a cousin of my father-in-law with origins in Vendée/Western France. He was tested for 12 markers only (exactly AMH), for our real interest was the mt haplogroup, which is of interest for my wife's ancestry.

We get a steady stream of French L21's without recruiting or otherwise even trying. After the British Isles, France is the most consistent producer of L21+ results.

rms2
12-20-2014, 04:03 PM
You could add the surname Durand to your L21+ list. It's a cousin of my father-in-law with origins in Vendée/Western France. He was tested for 12 markers only (exactly AMH), for our real interest was the mt haplogroup, which is of interest for my wife's ancestry.

It struck me as a funny coincidence this morning that I had just bumped up this thread with that post about new French L21's when I saw that your father-in-law's cousin had joined the R L21 and Subclades Project. Thanks for joining him to the project.

I know his y-dna is not your primary interest, but I hope you all will upgrade him to 67 or 111 markers sometime.

CelticGerman
12-20-2014, 08:15 PM
It struck me as a funny coincidence this morning that I had just bumped up this thread with that post about new French L21's when I saw that your father-in-law's cousin had joined the R L21 and Subclades Project. Thanks for joining him to the project.

I know his y-dna is not your primary interest, but I hope you all will upgrade him to 67 or 111 markers sometime.

I think I will buy some STR upgrades sooner or later. Even if my own haplogroup is R-CTS4333 (under Z36), I would be happy to help L21 cousins and research in general. I have started with an SNP order (DF13 and DF21).