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artemv
12-18-2019, 09:30 AM
Ancient Sardinian samples of jet unpublished paper are out.
I will post results of my happlogroup research here (if someone else has checked other samples, they are wellcome).

Here is some data from the pre-print about individs that have been checked:
All of them from EBA, and the same location archeological site Su Crucifissu Mannu at Porto Torres:


ID
Age (CAL BP)
mtDNA
Y(reported)
Y(detailed)


SUC005
4233-4088
K1a4a1
I2a1b1
I-Y6098


SUC006
4420-4260
H1av
I2a1b1
I-M223(I-Y3670?)


SUC007
4411-4245
J2a1a1
I2a1b1
I-PF692(I-Y34539?)



Here are some details:
SUC005
No doubts about this sample, all three Y6098 synonimes that have calls are positive, no upstream negatives.
S9403+(3 reads)
Y6098+(2 reads)
CTS9515/M744+(1 read)

SUC006
This sample has 10 derived and 1 ancestral calls for M223. However, the only ancestral call has just 1 read and is a T->C mutation, so we likely got ancestral T because of deamination from C. I will not copy here all the positive M223 synonimes, we should not doubt this is an I-M223 sample (they also had no doubt and reported I2a1b1 in pre-print).
We have a downstream negative:
Y34538-(1 read)
And after that downstream positives:
Z2086+(1 read)
Z2082+(2 reads)
I guess this sample is Y3670, and upstream negative Y34538 is an error, but I've added a question sign to stay on the safe side.

SUC007
S23467+(2 reads)
Further downstream we have:
L1228+(1 read)
S20581+(1 read)
Even more further:
Y34538+(1 read) - this a C->T mutation, so it could be possible here we got T because of deamination. Again wanted to stay on safe side and only claimed this is an I-PF692 individ, but we have a good chance this individ belongs to Y34539 branch.

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 11:07 AM
SUC005 could also be PF692, he has one derived SNP at that level:

Y18949+ C>A (1 read)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUC006 is definitely Y3670, he has three derived SNPs at that level:

Y3683+ T>A (2 reads)

Z2082+ G>C (2 reads)

Z2086+ T>C (1 read)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUC007 could be Y34539, as you already wrote.


As for the remaining two samples from Su Crucifissu Mannu:

SUC003; 2123-1944 BC; Su Crucifissu Mannu, t.16; Porto Torres, SAS; Bonnanaro A_EBA; I2a1b1-M223>Y6098>S23680>PF692* (xY34539) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PF692/)

S19522+ G>T (1 read)

L1228+ G>C (2 reads)

Y34538/FGC70381- C>T (2 reads)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUC009; 1858-1662 BC; Su Crucifissu Mannu, t.22; Porto Torres, SAS; Bonnanaro B_MBA; I2a1b-Y10705(>pre-L38?) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L38/)

Y10705 level:

FGC29644/Y10708+
SK1262/Y11315+
S2599+
FGC36958+
S2490+
Y13071/FGC29630+
S2503+
Y10710/FGC29585+
Y13459/FGC29589+
S2504+
Y10705/FGC29562+
S2500-

L38 level:

Y13463/FGC29582+ G>T (2reads)
S10886+ T>C (1 read)
Y10706/FGC29572-
S154/L38-
Y11324/FGC29600-
FGC29621-
S2552-
Y11319/FGC29553-
S2492-
FGC29622-
S2507-
FGC29704/Y13456-
SK1261/S2520-
L39/S155-
S156/L40-
S2604-
Y13464/SK1265/FGC19136-

Logistic
12-18-2019, 03:41 PM
Thanks

rafc
12-18-2019, 03:48 PM
Great initiative, I hope you guys continue!

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 04:13 PM
MA89; 3370-3110 BC; Cannas di Sotto, t. 12; Carbonia, SS; Filigosa_ECA; R1b1b-V2219>V88>Y7777>Y8451* (xY8447,V35) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y8451/)

Y8451 level:

Y8451/FGC20971/V4580+
Y8453/FGC21029+
FGC21011/Y7783+
FGC21063/Y7784+
FGC21034/SK2063/V2197+
FGC20976+
Y8462/FGC21027/V6846+
FGC20992/V1732+
Y8449/FGC21010+

Y8447 level:

Y8447/FGC20970/V5557-
FGC20998/Y8458-

V35 level:

SK2066- C>T (2 reads)
SK2068- G>C (2 reads)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

MA110; 1220-1050 BC; Ingurtosu Mannu; Donori, CA; Nuragic II_LBA; R1b1b-V2219>V88>Y7777>Y8451>pre-V35 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V35/)

Y8451 level:

Y8453/FGC21029+
FGC21030/Y7773/Z30279/V5535+
FGC21011/Y7783+
FGC21063/Y7784+
Y8454/FGC20979+
FGC21034/SK2063/V2197+
FGC20976+
Y8462/FGC21027/V6846+
Y8449/FGC21010+
Y8451/FGC20971/V4580- A>G (1 read)

V35 level:

SK2066+ C>T (5 reads)
SK2068+ G>C (13 reads)
SK2069+ G>C (5 reads)
Z30249+ C>A (1 read)
V35- T>A (6 reads)

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 04:43 PM
SUA002; 2270-2030 BC; Riparo sotto roccia Su Asedazzu; Seulo, CA; Bonnanaro A_EBA; R1b1b-V2219>V88>(pre?)M18 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M18/)

V88>M18 level:

YP5453+ C>G (1 read)
PF6331+ C>T (1 read)
PF6379+ C>T (2 reads)
PF6368+ G>A (1 read)
PF6360+ T>C (2 reads)
MF51826- G>A (1 read)

V88>Y7777 level:

Y8442- C>T (1 read)
FGC21018/Y8460- T>G (7 reads)
Y7785/FGC21036- T>C (4 reads)


-------------------------------------------------------------

SUA001; 1410-1230 BC; Riparo sotto roccia Su Asedazzu; Seulo, CA; Nuragic I_MBA; R1b1b-V2219>V88>M18 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M18/)

V88>M18 level:

PF6331+ C>T (2 reads)
PF6379+ C>T (1 read)

V88>Y7777 level:

Z30239- G>A (1 read)
FGC21018/Y8460- T>G (6 reads)

-------------------------------------------------------------

SUA003; 1260-1060 BC; Riparo sotto roccia Su Asedazzu; Seulo, CA; Nuragic II_LBA; R1b1b-V2219>V88>M18 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M18/)

V88>M18 level:

PF6379+ C>T (1 read)

V88>Y7777 level:

FGC21018/Y8460- T>G (2 reads)

Trojet
12-18-2019, 04:50 PM
As I posted elsewhere, the three J2b-L283's from the Nuragic culture, all dated to the Late Bronze Age, are as follows:

ORC003 is J-L283+ Z627+ YP157+ Z585-
ORC007 is J-L283+ YP157 NC Z585- Z615-
ORC008 is J-L283+ Z627+ YP157 NC Z615-

So ORC003 is surely J-YP157. The other two have no calls for J-YP157 clade, but most likely they belong there as well considering they are negative for Z585 and Z615. Not surprising here. Considering its distribution, J-YP157 subclade would've probably been my first choice to appear in ancient Sardinia: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP157/

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 05:29 PM
ORC003; 1369-1128 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic I_MBA; J2b2a1-L283>Z600>YP157* (xYP71) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP157/)

L283 level:

Z587+
Z592+
Y1276+
Z2405/AM00232a/AMM141/CTS174+
L283+
Z588+
Z590+
S23664/AM00225/AMM134/Z2675+
AMM121/AM00212/Z612+
AM00215/AMM124/CTS9313/Z2518+
AMM116/Z603.2/AM00207/Z603+

L283>Z600 level:

Z8411/Y1279+ A>G (2 reads)

L283>Z600>YP157 level:

YP157+ A>G (3 reads)

L283>Z600>YP157>YP71 level:

YP66/Z28758- G>T (1 read)
YP72- G>A (2 reads)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORC007; 1285-1127 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA; J2b2a1-L283(>YP29?) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP29/)

L283 level:

Y1276+
L283+
Z588+
Z590+
Y1277/Z8407+
S23664/AM00225/AMM134/Z2675+
Z589+
AMM121/AM00212/Z612+
AMM142/AM00232b/Z582+

L283>YP29 level:

YP91+ C>T (1 read)
YP29- G>C (1 read-->A!)

L283>Z600 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>YP157 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>YP157>YP71 level:

YP118- C>T (2 reads)
YP36- G>T (2 reads)

L283>Z600>Z585 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>Z585>YP113 level:

Z28755/YP6- A>G (1 read)
YP89- A>G (1 read)
YP88- T>A (2 reads)

L283>Z600>Z585>Z615 level:

AMM125/AM00216/Z615- G>C (1 read)

L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597 level:

AM00230/AMM139/Z628- C>T (1 read)

Trojet
12-18-2019, 05:41 PM
ORC007; 1285-1127 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA; J2b2a1-L283(>YP29?) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP29/)

L283 level:

Y1276+
L283+
Z588+
Z590+
Y1277/Z8407+
S23664/AM00225/AMM134/Z2675+
Z589+
AMM121/AM00212/Z612+
AMM142/AM00232b/Z582+

L283>YP29 level:

YP91+ C>T (1 read)
YP29- G>C (1 read-->A!)

L283>Z600 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>YP157 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>YP157>YP71 level:

YP118- C>T (2 reads)
YP36- G>T (2 reads)

L283>Z600>Z585 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>Z585>YP113 level:

Z28755/YP6- A>G (1 read)
YP89- A>G (1 read)
YP88- T>A (2 reads)

L283>Z600>Z585>Z615 level:

AMM125/AM00216/Z615- G>C (1 read)

L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597 level:

AM00230/AMM139/Z628- C>T (1 read)

Interesting find! I did not check ORC007 and ORC008 that closely. Even though there is one read there, YP91+ and YP29? makes sense, as I know there should be a split there once the new YFull samples are processed that will look something like this:

J-BY55372>Alsace, France
J-BY55372>YP91>Norway
J-BY55372>YP91>YP29>USA, Sardinia

More SNPs will probably be discovered at the current J-YP29 level due to the new higher resolution tests (Y700, etc) that might have coverage. Let's see..

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 05:54 PM
ORC008; 1191-999 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic III_LBA; J2b2a1-L283>Z600 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/)

L283 level:

Z595+
L283+
Z590+
Y1277/Z8407+
Z589+
AMM121/AM00212/Z612+
AM00215/AMM124/CTS9313/Z2518+
Z2519/CTS10105+

L283>YP29 level:

YP91- C>T (2 reads)
YP65- T>C (1 read)

L283>Z600 level:

Z8415+ C>A (1 read)

L283>Z600>YP157 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>YP157>YP71 level:

YP130- A>G (1 read)
YP72- G>A (4 reads)

L283>Z600>Z585 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>Z585>YP113 level:

YP75-
YP89-
YP15-
YP74-
YP179-

L283>Z600>Z585>Z615 level:

AMM125/AM00216/Z615- G>C (1 read)

L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597 level:

AM00199/AMM108/Z597- C>T (1 read)
AM00230/AMM139/Z628- C>T (2 reads)
AMM143/AM00233/Z584- T>C (1 read)
Z2505- T>G (2 reads)

Principe
12-18-2019, 06:07 PM
Interesting find! I did not check ORC007 and ORC008 that closely. Even though there is one read there, YP91+ and YP29? makes sense, as I know there should be a split there once the new YFull samples are processed that will look something like this:

J-BY55372>Alsace, France
J-BY55372>YP91>Norway
J-BY55372>YP91>YP29>USA, Sardinia

This is indeed an interesting find, how do you suspect pre Z615 made into Sardinia? The story for Z615 onwards is pretty much solved Caucasus>some Steppe Population>Western Balkans, how about these earlier branches? Maybe an undocumented movement from the Caucasus or Anatolia into Italy/Sardinia during the EBA or MBA? Because its clear L283 was not in Sardinia during the Neolithic nor Chalcolithic.

Principe
12-18-2019, 06:14 PM
Also is someone going to check out the E and J1 sample?

Or I’ll check them out!

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 06:21 PM
ISB001; 1880-1690 BC; Su Grutta ’e is Bittuleris; Seulo, CA; Bonnanaro B_MBA; I2a1a1a-L158>Y3992>Z2049>Y11222 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y11222/)

L158 level:

PF4015/L673/CTS5821+
CTS7671/PF4026+
PF3767/CTS7964+
V1304/PF3962+
CTS4448/PF4009+
CTS8644/PF4033+
CTS7373/PF4024+
PF3874+
Y3993+
PF4065+
CTS11548/PF3877+
PF4079+
PF4082/CTS12199+
PF4083/CTS12499+
PF4085+
PF3973/V1900+

L158>Y3992 level:

PF3994/CTS1659+
PF3741/CTS5526+
CTS1369/PF3960+
PF4049+
PF3832/S6104+
PF3976/V2245+
Y3992+

L158>Y3992>Z2049 level:

PF3633/CTS1132+ G>A (3 reads)

L158>Y3992>Z2049>Y11222 level:

Y11895+ A>G (1 read)
Y11894+ G>A (1 read)

L158>Y3992>Z2049>Y11222>Z27396 level: *no calls*

L158>Y3992>Z2049>Y11222>Z27396>PF6921 level:

Z27429/PF6935-

L158>Y3992>Z2049>Y11222>Z27396>Y15581 level:

Y15659-
Y15660-
Y26684-

L158>Y3992>Z2049>Y11222>BY40578 level: *no calls*

L158>Y3992>Z2049>Y11222>BY40578>Y21997 level:

FGC75932-
Y38217/FGC75971-

L158>Y3992>Z2049>Y11222>BY40578>Y14718 level: *no calls*

L158>Y3992>Z2049>Y11222>BY40578>Y14718>Y15473 level:

Y15473- C>A (1 read)

Trojet
12-18-2019, 06:22 PM
This is indeed an interesting find, how do you suspect pre Z615 made into Sardinia? The story for Z615 onwards is pretty much solved Caucasus>some Steppe Population>Western Balkans, how about these earlier branches? Maybe an undocumented movement from the Caucasus or Anatolia into Italy/Sardinia during the EBA or MBA? Because its clear L283 was not in Sardinia during the Neolithic nor Chalcolithic.

After the Alsace and the Norway samples which are upstream, and since we have no J-L283 in Sardinia pre Bronze Age, I honestly think they likely made it to Sardinia through continental Europe (maybe NW Balkans>Italy>Sardinia).

Also, as I posted elsewhere, recently an Armenian BigY splits the J-L283 node! He is negative for 7 L283 SNPs, among them Z622 and Z577. If we assume current J-L283 TMRCA at 5400 ybp, the Armenian should split at ~6000 ybp. This suggests that J-L283>Z622, where the two European branches stem from, migrated en masse from further east sometime between 6000-4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA).

I think the Sardinian branches likely represent some MBA migration that contained various clades and that got isolated there. I guess investigating the origin of the Nuragic culture should give us a clue..

Ruderico
12-18-2019, 06:30 PM
Also is someone going to check out the E and J1 sample?

Or I’ll check them out!

Well you know what I'm on the lookout for :)

Principe
12-18-2019, 06:34 PM
Well you know what I'm on the lookout for :)

Yup I sure do :) the sample is a very poor quality the only sure thing I can confirm at the moment is that its negative for PF1962 and thus all downstreams as well as V65.

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 06:43 PM
ISC001; 2294-2141 BC; S’Iscia ‘e sas Piras; Usini, SAS; Bonnanaro A_EBA; I2a1b1-M223>Y6098>S23680>PF692 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PF692/)

PF692 level:

YP5422+ C>A (1 read)
Y18949+ C>A (1 read)
L1228+ G>C (2 reads)

PF692>Y34539 level: *no calls*

PF692>Y34539>FGC70305 level:

FGC70349-
FGC70333-
FGC70335-
FGC70357-
FGC70359-
FGC70383-
FGC70364-

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORC004; 1385-1135 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic I_MBA; I2a1b1-M223>Y6098>S23680>PF692 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PF692/)

PF692 level:

S24785+ A>G (1 read)
Y18949+ C>A (1 read)

PF692>Y34539 level: *no calls*

PF692>Y34539>FGC70305 level:

FGC70347-
FGC70349-
Y108771-
FGC70359-
FGC70364-

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 07:20 PM
SEC002; 2472-2342 BC; Serra Crabiles, t.3; Sennori, SAS; Monte Claro_LCA; G2a2a1a2a1a-PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239(>pre-Z6802?) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3239/)

PF3239 level:

Z6130+
Z6043+
PF3239+
S19892/Z6493/FGC8009+
PF3240+
FGC5666/Z6476+
PF3247+
Z6480/FGC5667+

PF3239>Z6802 level:

PF3230+ C>T (2 reads)
PF3143-
PF3242-
Z6236-
Z6037-

PF3239>L166 level:

Z1370/Z1370.2-
Z6134-
FGC5696-
Z6219-
Z6209-
L167-
L166-
Z6135/S10301-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

SEC001; 2455-2201 BC; Serra Crabiles, t.3; Sennori, SAS; Monte Claro_LCA; G2a2a1a2a1a-PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3239/)

PF3239 level:

Z6043+
S11565/Z6200+
Z6277+
S19892/Z6493/FGC8009+
PF3240+

PF3239>Z6802 level:

PF3143- A>T (3 reads)

PF3239>L166 level:

Z6134-
FGC5696-
Z6219-
FGC5675/Z6516-
L167-
L166-
Z6135/S10301-

Principe
12-18-2019, 07:40 PM
SNN001 at the moment remains E-M35, negative for sure for PF1962 and V65

VIL007 at the moment is J1-Z2331, https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2331/

Trying to get further calls it is a tricky sample appears to be negative at Z2317, but it can just be sample quality.

Kelmendasi
12-18-2019, 07:44 PM
SNN001 at the moment remains E-M35, negative for sure for PF1962 and V65

VIL007 at the moment is J1-Z2331, https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2331/

Trying to get further calls it is a tricky sample appears to be negative at Z2317, but it can just be sample quality.
From what time period and culture are these samples?

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 07:47 PM
ORC006; 1261-1090 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA; G2a2b2b1a1a-PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378 (>PF3376?) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3378/)

PF3378 level:

PF3378+
PF3398+
PF3379+
PF3423+
PF3366+
PF3393+

PF3378>PF3376 level:

PF3439+ C>T (1 read)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

MA112; 1260-1060 BC; Is Arutas; Cabras, OR; Nuragic II_LBA; G2a2b2b1a1-PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-F872/)

PF3359 level:

BY21786/FGC66775+ G>A (1 read)
PF3375+ G>A (1 read)

PF3359>F1193 level: *no calls*

PF3359>F1193>PF3369 level: *no calls*

PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872 level:

PF3394+ G>A (1 read)

PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572 level: *no calls*

PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214 level: *no calls*

PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>F807 level:

FGC7331-
FGC7282-
Y36003-

PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378 level: *no calls*

PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378>PF3376 level: *no calls*

PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378>Z7016 level: *no calls*

PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378>Z7016>Z7022 level: *no calls*

PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378>Z7016>Z7022>BY63384 level: *no calls*

Principe
12-18-2019, 07:48 PM
From what time period and culture are these samples?

This one is part of the samples not listed but I think medieval tbh the other sample under VIL is a well defined branch under L51.

Kelmendasi
12-18-2019, 08:12 PM
This one is part of the samples not listed but I think medieval tbh the other sample under VIL is a well defined branch under L51.
Still very interesting to see J-Z2331 show up in Sardinia, seems like J1 had quite some spread.

Principe
12-18-2019, 08:21 PM
Still very interesting to see J-Z2331 show up in Sardinia, seems like J1 had quite some spread.

Phoenicians and Carthaginians had quite a large presence there, so its not necessarily shocking, even on the J1 tree under Z2331 there are 13 Sardinian samples.

Pribislav
12-18-2019, 10:57 PM
SNN001 at the moment remains E-M35, negative for sure for PF1962 and V65.

SNN001; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377>CTS9320 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9320/)

V13 level:

Z21285/Y3182+ A>G (1 read)

Z1056/PF2240/CTS7633+ C>G (1 read)

Z21284/Y3864+ T>A (1 read)

V13>Z1057 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762 level:

Y3762/SK888+ C>T (1 read)

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377>CTS9320 level:

S20250+ G>A (3 reads)

All downstream SNPs are *no calls*.

Trojet
12-18-2019, 11:12 PM
SNN001; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377>CTS9320 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9320/)

V13 level:

Z21285/Y3182+ A>G (1 read)

Z1056/PF2240/CTS7633+ C>G (1 read)

Z21284/Y3864+ T>A (1 read)

V13>Z1057 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762 level:

Y3762/SK888+ C>T (1 read)

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377>CTS9320 level:

S20250+ G>A (3 reads)

All downstream SNPs are *no calls*.

Interesting. They don't seem to have anything about this sample in the preprint. I wonder what time period it comes from..

Trojet
12-19-2019, 01:50 AM
ORC007; 1285-1127 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA; J2b2a1-L283(>YP29?) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP29/)

L283 level:

Y1276+
L283+
Z588+
Z590+
Y1277/Z8407+
S23664/AM00225/AMM134/Z2675+
Z589+
AMM121/AM00212/Z612+
AMM142/AM00232b/Z582+

L283>YP29 level:

YP91+ C>T (1 read)
YP29- G>C (1 read-->A!)

L283>Z600 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>YP157 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>YP157>YP71 level:

YP118- C>T (2 reads)
YP36- G>T (2 reads)

L283>Z600>Z585 level: *no calls*

L283>Z600>Z585>YP113 level:

Z28755/YP6- A>G (1 read)
YP89- A>G (1 read)
YP88- T>A (2 reads)

L283>Z600>Z585>Z615 level:

AMM125/AM00216/Z615- G>C (1 read)

L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597 level:

AM00230/AMM139/Z628- C>T (1 read)


Interesting find! I did not check ORC007 and ORC008 that closely. Even though there is one read there, YP91+ and YP29? makes sense, as I know there should be a split there once the new YFull samples are processed that will look something like this:

J-BY55372>Alsace, France
J-BY55372>YP91>Norway
J-BY55372>YP91>YP29>USA, Sardinia

I see ORC007 has one negative read for YP65 which should be at YP91 level. So he should be negative for YP29 too, makes sense considering this is the younger SNP. However, assuming the single positive read for YP91 is not a false positive, ORC007 defines another split above the Norwegian.

Hopefully we get more SNPs at those levels as the new tests are Y700, and maybe there will be another SNP that has coverage there. Considering the YP65- result, at this point I suspect YP91 might be a false positive (questionable if he belongs to this branch).

Webb
12-19-2019, 02:52 PM
SNN001; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377>CTS9320 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9320/)

V13 level:

Z21285/Y3182+ A>G (1 read)

Z1056/PF2240/CTS7633+ C>G (1 read)

Z21284/Y3864+ T>A (1 read)

V13>Z1057 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762 level:

Y3762/SK888+ C>T (1 read)

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377 level: *no calls*

V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377>CTS9320 level:

S20250+ G>A (3 reads)

All downstream SNPs are *no calls*.

As there anyway you could take a look at SNN002? Thanks.

Pribislav
12-19-2019, 04:24 PM
As there anyway you could take a look at SNN002? Thanks.

SNN002 is a really low quality sample, judging by the number of covered SNPs, but I think it's safe to say he belongs to P312:

P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579+ C>A (5 reads)

The only derived SNP below P312 is:

Z272+ G>A (1 read)

In theory SNN002 could indeed be Z272, since he has no negatives at upstream levels (Z195 and DF27), but we should bear in mind it is covered with only one read.

Johane Derite
12-20-2019, 10:00 AM
I guess investigating the origin of the Nuragic culture should give us a clue..

We can now say pretty confidently that the Sherden Sea Peoples were probably same J-L283 as these Nuragic people. See image:

https://i.imgur.com/oPPKmR6.png

Trojet
12-20-2019, 03:10 PM
We can now say pretty confidently that the Sherden Sea Peoples were probably same J-L283 as these Nuragic people. See image:

https://i.imgur.com/oPPKmR6.png

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing :)

Principe
12-20-2019, 03:45 PM
We can now say pretty confidently that the Sherden Sea Peoples were probably same J-L283 as these Nuragic people. See image:

https://i.imgur.com/oPPKmR6.png

For me there was no doubt that Sherden were from Sardinia although we still don’t have any adna proof of this, the odds are very likely.

Also this is something I haven’t voiced publicly yet, but I think there’s a chance that some of the Sea Peoples settled in Southern Italy, groups like the Oenotrians and Elymnians that have vague origins with a Aegean background story, also all the stories of Trojans who migrated to the Peninsula, not saying this is true but I think its a possibility, I was convinced Etruscans were going to be one of those groups and it turns out that wasn’t true.

Webb
12-20-2019, 03:53 PM
Has anyone found the time periods for SNN001 and SNN002?

Johane Derite
12-21-2019, 07:17 PM
I honestly think they likely made it to Sardinia through continental Europe (maybe NW Balkans>Italy>Sardinia).

If we assume current J-L283 TMRCA at 5400 ybp, the Armenian should split at ~6000 ybp. This suggests that J-L283>Z622, where the two European branches stem from, migrated en masse from further east sometime between 6000-4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA).

I think the Sardinian branches likely represent some MBA migration that contained various clades and that got isolated there. I guess investigating the origin of the Nuragic culture should give us a clue..

Since you mention Armenia, I also noticed some cultural similarities between the Nuragics and bronze age Armenian kurgan finds. See image:

https://i.imgur.com/tswqOPn.jpg

There is without a doubt a cultural connection between these artefacts. They are made in a similar way, and both depict the totemic animals, especially deers but also goats, at the front of the chariot/boat. These finds are a bit later than the 6000-4400 ybp window though, but point to a common mythology or belief system.

This is a bit more speculative but supports your migration route through continental Europe. See image:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/02/88/e50288c96dfc183bf8c972af48bcf05b.jpg

This is a find from the Glasinac Culture in around the Illyrian coast.

The birds from the bronze age Glasinac cult chariot resemble very closely the totemic bird that is depicted atop the top left Nuragic boat statue, and the composition is also similar.

I think there is a cultural relation.

Glasinac I culture supposedly begins around 1800BC, around the same time as beginning of Nuragic, and is associated with the Autariatae tribe. It also fits the J-L283 found in the Illyrian coast in Mathieson paper.

A further remark. This type of Deer totem was also used as a chariot ornament by the Hittites. See image:

http://thirstyfish.com/photos/post001364.jpg

Trojet
12-21-2019, 08:58 PM
Since you mention Armenia, I also noticed some cultural similarities between the Nuragics and bronze age Armenian kurgan finds. See image:

https://i.imgur.com/tswqOPn.jpg

There is without a doubt a cultural connection between these artefacts. They are made in a similar way, and both depict the totemic animals, especially deers but also goats, at the front of the chariot/boat. These finds are a bit later than the 6000-4400 ybp window though, but point to a common mythology or belief system.

This is a bit more speculative but supports your migration route through continental Europe. See image:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/02/88/e50288c96dfc183bf8c972af48bcf05b.jpg

This is a find from the Glasinac Culture in around the Illyrian coast.

The birds from the bronze age Glasinac cult chariot resemble very closely the totemic bird that is depicted atop the top left Nuragic boat statue, and the composition is also similar.

I think there is a cultural relation.

Glasinac I culture supposedly begins around 1800BC, around the same time as beginning of Nuragic, and is associated with the Autariatae tribe. It also fits the J-L283 found in the Illyrian coast in Mathieson paper.

A further remark. This type of Deer totem was also used as a chariot ornament by the Hittites. See image:

http://thirstyfish.com/photos/post001364.jpg

Interesting information!

For the bolded, we may have evidence in the J-Y21045 branch. It splits right at ~1900 BC: One subbranch defined by J-YP9 in Sardinia, while its "brother" J-Z38300 mostly in North Albania.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/

Johane Derite
12-21-2019, 10:36 PM
Interesting information!

For the bolded, we may have evidence in the J-Y21045 branch. It splits right at ~1900 BC: One subbranch defined by J-YP9 in Sardinia, while its "brother" J-Z38300 mostly in North Albania.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/

Amazing, I didn't connect this before.

Johane Derite
12-21-2019, 11:30 PM
Armenians seem to have a tradition of sacrificing Deer and Doves/Pigeons. This is very speculative but it could possibly be of the same religious substrate that we see in the deer and birds in those bronze figures.

"Throughout the day, doves and deer would be sacrificed in the name of the gods. Usually the horns of the deer were painted colorfully. There also was set up a big bonfire at nighttime where kids and young adults would try to jump over and around it to scare and drive away bad spirits. The celebrating people would bring their first set of harvest of the year to share with others.

Horseback riding races were done, as well as deer racing. The let go hundreds of doves into the air for good luck. Dancing, singing, intellectual and athletic competitive games were a big part of the celebrations, where competitors would try to impress the ones they admire in the audience."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navasard?oldformat=true

Reozek
02-07-2020, 04:42 PM
error

Reozek
02-07-2020, 04:43 PM
36287

Nuragic Sardinians seems to have few steppe (green) in K4, is it noise or real

Apparently the sardinian population in the bronze age was mixed "racialy" speaking, including bell beaker dinarics and other types like the one from Rinaldone culture

Reozek
02-13-2020, 05:16 PM
SNN002 is a really low quality sample, judging by the number of covered SNPs, but I think it's safe to say he belongs to P312:

P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579+ C>A (5 reads)

The only derived SNP below P312 is:

Z272+ G>A (1 read)

In theory SNN002 could indeed be Z272, since he has no negatives at upstream levels (Z195 and DF27), but we should bear in mind it is covered with only one read.

which time period is this sample ? Nuragic?

Webb
02-13-2020, 06:48 PM
which time period is this sample ? Nuragic?

This is from the Supplemental Paper:

"SITE: Serra Crabiles, t.3
The site is located in Northwestern Sardinia, Sennori municipality (Sassari). It consists of a necropolis
of at least four tombs of the domu de janas type, rock-carved rooms dating to between the final Middle
Neolithic and the Early Copper Age. One of them, tomb 1, yielded human remains which were
attributed to the Late Copper Age (Monte Claro culture) based on ceramic sherds association –
despite the lack of any reliable stratigraphy; in fact, the finding of a Bell Beaker decorated sherd is also
mentioned (Germanŕ 1980). Tombs 2, 3 and 4 were investigated through excavation led by the
Soprintendenza Archeologica Sassari-Nuoro in 1981 (Foschi Nieddu 1984), and in 1993-94 several
additional rooms connected with tomb 4 were discovered and excavated (Rovina 1994).
The human remains sampled for aDNA extraction come from tomb 3, which yielded like tomb 1
potsherds attributed to the Monte Claro phase, but also Bell Bell Beaker cultural markers.
Radiocarbon dates obtained from the human remains analyzed in this study leave some uncertainty,
with chronology covering the interface between the two phases (five dates with a cumulative cal BP 2σ
4
range between 4422 and 4151), but more stringent overlap appears with the Bell Beaker dates from
Padru Jossu (Lai 2009: 318), and some unpublished ones from Bingia ’e Monti."

Reozek
02-13-2020, 07:33 PM
i was wrong Serra Crabiles is labeled as SEC...SNN are part of the new post nuragic samples

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB35094

Reozek
02-13-2020, 10:54 PM
first R1b M269 appeared in the Punic period according to https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/20/22/5763/htm (data from Marcus et al)
36369

it could be an assimilated Nuragic or a slave/immigrant from Punic Spain

rafc
02-25-2020, 08:31 AM
It seems SNN001 is not part of the published paper, or am I misreading it?

Hodo Scariti
02-25-2020, 09:51 AM
first R1b M269 appeared in the Punic period according to https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/20/22/5763/htm (data from Marcus et al)
36369

it could be an assimilated Nuragic or a slave/immigrant from Punic Spain

How could it be an assimilated Nuragic, if it is the first time M269 appears in Sardinia?

Reozek
02-25-2020, 11:31 AM
How could it be an assimilated Nuragic, if it is the first time M269 appears in Sardinia?

it depend if he's nuragic autosomally then it could be a native

RCO
02-25-2020, 02:06 PM
VIL007 at the moment is J1-Z2331, https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2331/

Trying to get further calls it is a tricky sample appears to be negative at Z2317, but it can just be sample quality.


From what time period and culture are these samples?


We also observed J1-L862 in one individual from a Punic site (VIL007) (...) Notably, J1-L862 first appears in Levantine Bronze Age individuals within the ancient reference dataset and is at about 5% frequency in Sardinia today.

SITE: Villamar - Villamar is a modern town of medieval origins situated in the gently rolling fertile hills of the Marmilla district in southern central Sardinia. While there is some
evidence for prehistoric and later settlement in the area of the post-medieval town center, the only archaeological remains that have been systematically recovered and
properly documented are Punic in date, and come from a nearby ancient cemetery. Initial radiocarbon dating of the skeletal material yielded ages ranging from 800 to 400 BCE
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-14523-6/MediaObjects/41467_2020_14523_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Webb
02-25-2020, 02:17 PM
It seems SNN001 is not part of the published paper, or am I misreading it?

It is included in the supplemental excel sheet:

SNN001 SNN001 SNN001 San Nicola Necropoli Esterna Tooth SSSN 02 1077 Sassari, SAS 40.726921 8.558378 Medieval 615 ± 17 -16 MAMS-39534 yes_new 652-553 602.5 Jena SNN001.A0101 UDGhalf 120761 0.121 0.153 5836 male E1b1b1a1b1 3.4002 ± 3.413861 U5a1d2a 34.4 1 (0-2) 0.1586

rafc
02-25-2020, 03:57 PM
It is included in the supplemental excel sheet:

SNN001 SNN001 SNN001 San Nicola Necropoli Esterna Tooth SSSN 02 1077 Sassari, SAS 40.726921 8.558378 Medieval 615 ± 17 -16 MAMS-39534 yes_new 652-553 602.5 Jena SNN001.A0101 UDGhalf 120761 0.121 0.153 5836 male E1b1b1a1b1 3.4002 ± 3.413861 U5a1d2a 34.4 1 (0-2) 0.1586

Thanks, so as most of us expected it is a medieval sample. The noodly appendage that erases all adna V13 before the Roman era is still hard at work, it seems.

ADW_1981
02-25-2020, 04:02 PM
it depend if he's nuragic autosomally then it could be a native

Why would anyone argue that when M269+ hasn't been found in Nuragic remains when there are dozens of samples now? Autosomal results can change after a few generations so it's quite an assumption.

Also a bizarre assumption when M269+ was more than likely the primary haplogroup of the Italic and related people who contributed significantly to the Roman ethnogenesis.

Reozek
02-25-2020, 04:11 PM
there were Beakers in Sardinia before the Nuragic (i think it's the area of Italy with the highest number of sites) so it's not impossible that some left descendants

the presence of J2a L283 suggest that there was some kind of post neolithic immigration on the island

Principe
02-25-2020, 04:17 PM
there were Beakers in Sardinia before the Nuragic (i think it's the area of Italy with the highest number of sites) so it's not impossible that some left descendants

the presence of J2a L283 suggest that there was some kind of post neolithic immigration on the island

This branch comes to mind

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF6656/

It is the most common U152 branch in Sardinia and does have a TMRCA that should match Beaker expansion, although not sure that it has been found in either papers including ancient samples.

Principe
02-25-2020, 04:19 PM
This branch comes to mind

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF6656/

It is the most common U152 branch in Sardinia and does have a TMRCA that should match Beaker expansion, although not sure that it has been found in either papers including ancient samples.

Its J2b-L283* and its from the Balkans some migration during the EBA from the Caucasus.

Pylsteen
02-25-2020, 04:24 PM
Sardinia is relatively well represented at YFull especially by samples from this paper (https://www.yfull.com/samples-from-paper/2/).

Reozek
02-25-2020, 04:30 PM
Its J2b-L283* and its from the Balkans some migration during the EBA from the Caucasus.

Material culture rather suggest a migration from Bronze age Tuscany (Polada/Asciano), the Etruscan from Civitavecchia has that haplogroup

Principe
02-25-2020, 04:36 PM
Material culture rather suggest a migration from Bronze age Tuscany (Polada/Asciano), the Etruscan from Civitavecchia has that haplogroup

Those would be intermediaries from the initial migration from Caucasus>Balkans. The Etruscan sample belongs to CTS6190 and the ones found in Nuragic Culture are from a different branch nevertheless same origin population might be the source. Whichever ancient BA Italian culture had a Balkan connection is likely the source as the intermediary culture.

vettor
02-25-2020, 04:39 PM
Material culture rather suggest a migration from Bronze age Tuscany (Polada/Asciano), the Etruscan from Civitavecchia has that haplogroup

There is no tuscan in Polada culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polada_culture

Reozek
02-25-2020, 04:43 PM
There is no tuscan in Polada culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polada_culture

Polada influences reached all Central Italy and even Catalunya and Southern France including Corsica

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301753787_Rapporti_fra_Italia_centrale_Corsica_e_S ardegna_durante_l'eta_dei_metalli

vettor
02-25-2020, 04:47 PM
Polada influences reached all Central Italy and even Catalunya and Southern France including Corsica

yes.....but it still is not tuscan

Reozek
02-25-2020, 04:49 PM
i didn't say that Polada is tuscan but that influences from the north spread southward and in the west, i'm talking about the typical vessels with axe handles for example

Hodo Scariti
02-25-2020, 05:07 PM
there were Beakers in Sardinia before the Nuragic (i think it's the area of Italy with the highest number of sites) so it's not impossible that some left descendants

the presence of J2a L283 suggest that there was some kind of post neolithic immigration on the island

The beakers of Sardinia were probably Iberian beakers in origins of the kind pre-2500 BC. But we need some expert explanations about that.

Hodo Scariti
02-25-2020, 05:08 PM
double

Reozek
02-25-2020, 05:14 PM
first Beakers of Sardinia (marittime style) were Iberian in origin, apparently from Sardinia they reached Sicily were they introduced megalithism... the second wave came from Central Europe via the Italian peninsula

http://www.sardegnadigitallibrary.it/index.php?xsl=626&id=680228

Kelmendasi
02-25-2020, 05:20 PM
Those would be intermediaries from the initial migration from Caucasus>Balkans. The Etruscan sample belongs to CTS6190 and the ones found in Nuragic Culture are from a different branch nevertheless same origin population might be the source. Whichever ancient BA Italian culture had a Balkan connection is likely the source as the intermediary culture.
Not to mention that sample I4331 from Middle Bronze Age Croatia (Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia) was J2b-Z38240* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/. The TMRCA for this branch is ~3,700ybp which is interesting as I4331 lived only a couple hundred years later, potentially suggesting that this branch originated in the Western Balkans. CTS6190 is a downstream of Z38240 which further strengthens the point that this branch migrated west from the Balkans.

Principe
02-25-2020, 05:30 PM
Not to mention that sample I4331 from Middle Bronze Age Croatia (Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia) was J2b-Z38240* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/. The TMRCA for this branch is ~3,700ybp which is interesting as I4331 lived only a couple hundred years later, potentially suggesting that this branch originated in the Western Balkans. CTS6190 is a downstream of Z38240 which further strengthens the point that this branch migrated west from the Balkans.

If there is evidence for a movement from the Balkans to Terramare Culture this would be the most likely scenario of how CTS6190 made into Italy unless the Apennine Culture is a better contender?

Reozek
02-25-2020, 05:48 PM
There is a Danubian (Hungary) component in the Terramare culture according to archaeologists