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Jon
01-22-2014, 05:09 PM
Hi All,
Great that we now have sub forums for L21! I wanted to test things out by asking all L513-interested whether there is an extant table or document showing the known links between current subclades, including TMRCA, closeness of relationship and so on (L193, L69 etc.)? I've been having trouble loading up the Yahoo group site, I know there's lots of stuff over there...

TigerMW
01-22-2014, 10:57 PM
Hi All,
Great that we now have sub forums for L21! I wanted to test things out by asking all L513-interested whether there is an extant table or document showing the known links between current subclades, including TMRCA, closeness of relationship and so on (L193, L69 etc.)? I've been having trouble loading up the Yahoo group site, I know there's lots of stuff over there...
Before there was an L193 we called that group "A1" and before there was an L69.5 we called that group "A2". A2 could also be seen as short for Airghelli II.

L69 is very unstable and not useful for conclusively marking a subclade. However, This version of L69 seems to be very nice advanced marker for A2. Everyone with an A2 STR signature so far is L513+ (and L193-) and everyone is L69+ too. We call it L69.5 because Thomas Krahn acknowledged as the fifth occurrence of L69+ that he was aware of.

There are many groups in L512 but A1 and A2 are worth examining as far as their relationship. They both have the very slow off modal of 640=12. I would not be surprised if we don't discover an SNP that both L193+ and A2 people have.

Jon
01-24-2014, 09:39 AM
Thanks for this Mike. If there was a connection, would this suggest a closer relationship between the groups historically, or could this mutation have happened independently of each other?

TigerMW
01-24-2014, 04:25 PM
Thanks for this Mike. If there was a connection, would this suggest a closer relationship between the groups historically, or could this mutation have happened independently of each other?

I don't know, Jon. I haven't had time to study the surname and clan name histories to go with the genealogies and genetics.

A good person on those topics is Ann Starnsbarger and Adam Bradford. Both are on the 1113combo/L513 yahoo group. Under files, Adam as posted his own origin report and hypothesis on A1, or L193. They have a Scottish Borders preponderance.

Brad Maguire on the same forum is the A2 expert. They have a heavy preponderance around western Ulster and Co. Monaghan. They are mainly the Maguire's and the Byrne's.

Mag Uidhir 6
01-27-2014, 12:43 AM
Jon,

Finding a "historical" common ground for septs within L21 is a challenge indeed!!
Using Alex Williamson's most current data for ages, I find:
DF13 ~3422 years old (w/1692 Y111 mbrs)
L513 ~2940 yo (w/255 Y111 mbrs)
L69.5 -unk- [800-1200 likely] (w/ 169 poss mbrs)
P66 ~188 yo (w/3 Y111 mbrs)

Df49 ~1987 yo (w/ 343 Y111 mbrs)
DF23 ~1809 yo (w/ 327 Y111 mbrs)
Z2961 ~1699 yo (w/ 291 Y111 mbrs)
M222 ~1448 yo (w/291 Y111 mbrs)

Genetically, we (M222 and L513) separated almost 3000 years ago...our various septs below that SNP level have seemingly tended to remain in the Northern/North Western Ireland and Dal Riada regions of Scotland. So it's not a leap of logic for me to "see" similar living patterns (tribes?), communication, commerce and trading between septs. There had to be a significant amount of interaction well before 1000 BC (a good 1500 years prior to most written history), although some stellae or Ogham stones might indicate otherwise??? Carving and metalworking being linked to Y DNA is as rare as hen's teeth within the R1b world, in my opinion...and especially so, when trying to uncloud "Legendary" history from myth via Y DNA.

The mid early AD (1000-1600) era regions of Briefne and Airghialla (Oirghialla/Oriel) are the hereditary homes for my ancestors. In all the histories I've read there were intrigues, commerce and fosterings between the O'Neil and Mag Uidhir Clans. So while Y DNA kinship is elusive, there ARE ties that bind them. Without a time machine, I'm at a loss...but still digging!

Brad

Jon
01-27-2014, 09:41 AM
Brad,

Thanks for all that info. I am still trying to find my way around the various groups and sources, including a recent Scotland's DNA stat of around 5% of men in the Hebrides being L513+. When I look at Semargl's map of L513, it looks like there are clusters in England as well, but even there it seems like a Scotland/Ireland concentration (very similar to L21 generally). The tricky thing for me is which sources are the most up to date/comprehensive! I totally agree that the interaction between the regions, e.g. Dalriada, must have had an effect though.

I was reading recently about the Damnonii tribe in south-west Scotland (probably Strathclyde Britons), and possible links to the Dumnonii of Devon and Cornwall (where M222 is found), over to the Fir Domnann of Ireland. Some people seem to think the tribes were probably linked, but of course so far back, impossible to prove, unless DNA eventually gives us an answer! I'm trying to look more at the actual DNA data these days, as so much of the historical data is conflicting. I'm sure the tribes back then, Britons, Irish Celts, etc. etc. all had shared ancestry going way back.

Having said all that, it does look like there is a link in with L513. I'm still very interested in this possible link between L513 A1 and A2, as that may well indicate a definite connection between the Maguire lands in Ireland and some areas of Britain (especially W Scotland). Thanks again for the info...

Jon