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Nqp15hhu
12-26-2019, 01:54 PM
So, I am still trying to get my head around the origin of this sub group. As stated previously, within my FTDNA Y-67 results we have the main surnames of:

1. Elliott/Ellenwood/Ellingwood/Ellwood.
2. McClean/McLean/McClain.
3. Glendinning/Clendinning/Clendaniel.

Those make up the vast majority of my matches, say around 200.

When we look at this site (which is very good), we see that these names make up the bulk of the A1 subgroup and are quite prominent: https://gorrenberry.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/A1-Clade-Report.pdf

I am still trying to determine my surname's place of origin and whether I am an NPE or not. Still no conclusion.

But what strikes me as odd is this McClean thing. Where does that all fit in? What is the point of origin of L193, where did it begin and do most of the surnames cluster around one or two counties? Or is there sub clusters within L193?

Dave-V
12-26-2019, 05:32 PM
L193 was originally recognized as a “superfamily” very early in Y-DNA testing when Adam Bradford wrote that report on the cluster along with surname origins. Interestingly while the cluster age has been pushed back since this report and we could add a lot through additional SNP and STR detail, the basic analysis still holds.

There was a lot of subsequent good discussion on this in the L513 Yahoo! Groups Forum in the following 3-4 years after this report that outlined several theories of the L193 progenitor (if you find an archive from those days, he was generally referred to as “Mr. Big” which would make a good search term). But most of those theories were based on the idea that he was an early medieval figure since at the time L193 was thought to be about 1000-1400 years old and it’s now believed to be quite a bit older. But there might be useful additional analysis in those old discussions particularly about distributions and surname connections.

I would say while there are offshoots in many locations, L193 appears to me to be more lowland Scottish than Highlands. The simplest explanation of course is that its distribution reflects a Scottish origin and therefore a very ancient Scottish line, but given its age we can’t rule out more complex scenarios like one or more branches having left Scotland only to come back later; so the fact that some surnames in the superfamily are believed to be of Norman origin could mean that NPEs brought those surnames into the superfamily but we can’t completely rule out it being more complicated.

The spread of L193 crosses clan and geographical boundaries and perhaps more importantly doesn’t show a clear influence from any of the traditional alliances between various Scottish factions through the ages, which could be either a result of it having been well-distributed already by the time later alliances were established or could simply mean that all those complex and highly fluid Scottish alliances didn’t restrict movement and intermarriage long enough for ripple effects to be evident in Y-DNA distributions or surname connections.

There ARE subclusters in L193 now clearly; probably best mapped in the R1b-L513 haplogroup project, but I don’t believe anyone has spent enough analysis time to produce an update to Adam Bradford’s original report that analyzes those subclusters compared to Scottish surnames and Scottish history in more detail. Would certainly be an interesting exercise though.

That’s all in no way a real answer to your question of course; I was just trying to lay out for the thread here what work had been done on this previously.

Nqp15hhu
12-27-2019, 01:36 PM
I am just wondering if I am an NPE who is an Elliott by Y Line. I match A LOT of Elliott people and John Crozier in this image: https://elwald.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ELLOTT-1610-R-L193.jpg

Muireagain
01-10-2020, 10:32 PM
I am wondering it L513 originated from the Skye area? I looked at L513 can came up with these families:

A7 is found on the Western side of Scotland:
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>A8 Clan Kennedys from Ayrshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>A8 Clan Little from Ayrshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>FGC32082 Clan Vans from Wigtownshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>Z18059 Clan Glendinning from Dumfriesshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>BY651>BY15236 McScumin of Ayrshire/Wigtownshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>BY651>BY11221 Clan Elliots
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>PF6141>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>A1069>Z17814 Clan MacLean
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>PF6141>Z17816 MacDuff/MacKintosh of Perthshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>FGC30224>Z17817 Black/MacDuffee
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>FGC30224>ZS4584>ZS4576>ZS4578 Sinkler of Glasgow
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>FGC30224>ZS4584>BY4017 Clan Drummonds
L513>S5668>A7>Z21253>S7828>Z21262 Clan MacKenzies
L513>S5668>A7>Z21253>S7828>BY11203>BY11186 MacIvor
L513>S5668>A7>Z17819>Z17820>FGC13503>FGC13508>FGC13495 a MacPherson (not from Clan Chattan who seem to be L1065)

Z16340 is found in Western area of Oriel lands in Ireland
L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>FGC9804>FGC9809>FGC9800>Z16337>BY3093 the Maguires
L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>FGC9804>FGC9809>FGC9800 C14 Sept MacCaffery/Guthrigh
L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>Z20655>Y140575 Brynes of Monaghan

Z16361 is found in Skye and the western side of Ireland
L513>S6365>Z16361>Z16372>Z18080 > Z18079>~20117088-C-A>ZS5208 Clan Nicholson
L513>S6365>Z16361>Z16372>BY404>BY402 O’Shea from Co. Clare
L513>S6365>Z16361>Z16372 O’Healy of Cork?
L513>S6365>Z16361>CTS750>FGC13411>BY11289>Z17626>Z17624 Devine of Co. Dongeal
L513>S6365>Z16361>CTS750>FGC13411>FGC32363>S8124 Anglin of Cork (Corca Luighe)

L705 is found in Ireland?
L513>S6365>L705>Z16403>Z16407>BY553 Barrett of Mayo?
L513>S6365>L705>Z16403>Z16407>Z17909>ZW05>ZW06>ZW01 Welsh of Kilkenny?

Z16386 is found in Ireland?
L513>S6365>Z16385>Z16386>Z16387>Z17801 Kingston (Mac Oinseamain) of west Co. Cork
L513>S6365>Z16385>Z16386>Z16387 Monahan of Galway

CTS3087 is found in Islay
L513>S6365>CTS3087>CTS10651 Sinclairs (Mhic nan Cearda) of Islay

And the very old break with all of the above is found in Ross?
L513>Z23532>FGC32624>FGC32631 Ross

Nqp15hhu
01-11-2020, 09:56 AM
So how do all the regions link up then? There must be different subregions? They talk about the Celtic people arriving in Ireland in the 3rd century, but this looks as though L193 has been around since before that??? So was there a tribe before the celts?

Jon
01-27-2020, 01:45 PM
Hi Guys,

Interesting topic. I think that L513 seems very old in the isles - a good paper to read is Joe Floods Phylogeny of L21 and its offshoots, which puts L193 in a larger context:

https://www.academia.edu/24686284/The_phylogenealogy_of_R-L21_four_and_a_half_millennia_of_expansion_and_red istribution

I think Dave hits it on the head when he said that there are now lots of subgroups to focus on. For example I'm trying to look more closely at the distribution of Z17817, and even FGC36506, for my lines.

In general, I don't think L193 can be seen as lowland. The stats I got back in the day from SDNA listed Perthshire and the Hebrides as the areas with most L193 positive testees. The Hebrides is not an area people tended to move INTO - its an area of traditionally very high out-migration. Also there is a long history of movement from the western isles into Perthshire, due to various factors. I think of L193 as ubiquitously Scottish, with well defined subgroups in more focused areas.

rms2
01-27-2020, 02:29 PM
I would beware of anything written by Joe Flood. Not too long ago he claimed R1b-U106 first arose in Cornwall, and he frequently argues at YFull's Facebook group against a steppe origin for R1b-M269. Joe has always had a preference for the obsolete idea that R1b-M269 is native to western Europe.

In the paper you cited above, he claims R1b-L21 probably arose in Britain. That is unlikely, since the very earliest British Beaker finds (c. 2400 BC) are already L21+, some of them DF13+ (downstream of L21), and the Amesbury Archer was born and raised on the Continent. It's true that we don't have the Archer's genome, but we do have that of a younger Beaker man buried only about three meters away from him, "the Companion", who was probably his son, since the two of them share an anomaly in the bones of their feet that indicates they were closely related. The Companion was R1b-L21, and his remains date to 2470-2140 BC (midpoint 2305 BC). Since the Archer was probably his father, the Archer was probably R1b-L21, as well, unless one wants to claim that L21 first appeared in the Companion.

Anyone can post papers on Academia. Let the reader beware. Many of them are garbage.

Jon
01-27-2020, 07:35 PM
OK - thanks for the warning rms2!

However: I still think it's pretty much established that wherever, however and whenever L513/L193 arrived in the isles, it (L513) is very much present today in folks of Scottish and/or Irish origin, with L193 having a particular focus on Scotland. Disentangling the various lines downstream is the thing.

rms2
01-29-2020, 09:28 AM
OK - thanks for the warning rms2!

However: I still think it's pretty much established that wherever, however and whenever L513/L193 arrived in the isles, it (L513) is very much present today in folks of Scottish and/or Irish origin, with L193 having a particular focus on Scotland. Disentangling the various lines downstream is the thing.

Tangles aren’t likely to get untangled through reading stuff by Joe Flood. That’s the thing in this context.

Jon
01-31-2020, 04:27 PM
Agreed rms2. Large pinches of salt are required - but I must say I liked his general geographical comparison of some of the L21 subclades. Yes, based on very small sample sizes and out of date ageing, but let's face it, it's hard to deny that, for example, L513 is heavily Scottish/Irish, and L193 is almost exclusively Scottish in the PD population. I reckon the only game in town with this stuff is waiting for the bigger aDNA studies to come out.

rms2
02-01-2020, 01:52 PM
Agreed rms2. Large pinches of salt are required - but I must say I liked his general geographical comparison of some of the L21 subclades. Yes, based on very small sample sizes and out of date ageing, but let's face it, it's hard to deny that, for example, L513 is heavily Scottish/Irish, and L193 is almost exclusively Scottish in the PD population. I reckon the only game in town with this stuff is waiting for the bigger aDNA studies to come out.

I doubt there is enough salt in the world to make anything by Joe Flood worth reading. Just my opinion.

spruithean
02-01-2020, 04:02 PM
I doubt there is enough salt in the world to make anything by Joe Flood worth reading. Just my opinion.

:lol: this is the truth!

MacUalraig
02-05-2020, 07:46 PM
There have been some important additions to the R-A8 tree on YFull in the last few weeks:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-A8/

Mix of lowland, highland and Ulster paper trails (not all marked with flags yet). Three of the kits were funded from my project.

TigerMW
02-05-2020, 08:52 PM
I am wondering it L513 originated from the Skye area? I looked at L513 can came up with these families:

A7 is found on the Western side of Scotland:
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>A8 Clan Kennedys from Ayrshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>A8 Clan Little from Ayrshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>FGC32082 Clan Vans from Wigtownshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>Z18059 Clan Glendinning from Dumfriesshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>BY651>BY15236 McScumin of Ayrshire/Wigtownshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>BY651>BY11221 Clan Elliots
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>PF6141>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>A1069>Z17814 Clan MacLean
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>PF6141>Z17816 MacDuff/MacKintosh of Perthshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>FGC30224>Z17817 Black/MacDuffee
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>FGC30224>ZS4584>ZS4576>ZS4578 Sinkler of Glasgow
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>FGC30224>ZS4584>BY4017 Clan Drummonds
L513>S5668>A7>Z21253>S7828>Z21262 Clan MacKenzies
L513>S5668>A7>Z21253>S7828>BY11203>BY11186 MacIvor
L513>S5668>A7>Z17819>Z17820>FGC13503>FGC13508>FGC13495 a MacPherson (not from Clan Chattan who seem to be L1065)

Z16340 is found in Western area of Oriel lands in Ireland
L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>FGC9804>FGC9809>FGC9800>Z16337>BY3093 the Maguires
L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>FGC9804>FGC9809>FGC9800 C14 Sept MacCaffery/Guthrigh
L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>Z20655>Y140575 Brynes of Monaghan

Z16361 is found in Skye and the western side of Ireland
L513>S6365>Z16361>Z16372>Z18080 > Z18079>~20117088-C-A>ZS5208 Clan Nicholson
L513>S6365>Z16361>Z16372>BY404>BY402 O’Shea from Co. Clare
L513>S6365>Z16361>Z16372 O’Healy of Cork?
L513>S6365>Z16361>CTS750>FGC13411>BY11289>Z17626>Z17624 Devine of Co. Dongeal
L513>S6365>Z16361>CTS750>FGC13411>FGC32363>S8124 Anglin of Cork (Corca Luighe)

L705 is found in Ireland?
L513>S6365>L705>Z16403>Z16407>BY553 Barrett of Mayo?
L513>S6365>L705>Z16403>Z16407>Z17909>ZW05>ZW06>ZW01 Welsh of Kilkenny?

Z16386 is found in Ireland?
L513>S6365>Z16385>Z16386>Z16387>Z17801 Kingston (Mac Oinseamain) of west Co. Cork
L513>S6365>Z16385>Z16386>Z16387 Monahan of Galway

CTS3087 is found in Islay
L513>S6365>CTS3087>CTS10651 Sinclairs (Mhic nan Cearda) of Islay

And the very old break with all of the above is found in Ross?
L513>Z23532>FGC32624>FGC32631 Ross

We have to keep in mind these are mostly reported EKA origins. There is also information in the surname/family and clan histories.

For example, the Barrett's of Tirawley (Co. Mayo) are reported in poems as descending from a Norman knight named Bareid and a brother of Walsh and son of Walynus. I think these are primarily symbolic and general heritage indicators but there is some consistency. The L705/CTS11744 Walsh and Barrett people really are related and they also related to people from Wales (Evans, Jones, Morgan (as in Glamorgan) as well as Gardiner from West Midlands. Wales is the launch point for the Cambro-Norman invasion of Ireland. There is a Welsh connection that is hard to ignore.

Z16340 has early branching located in Belgium and Sweden.

Nqp15hhu
02-07-2020, 02:07 AM
I must admit to being surprised with the number of southern Irish L193 members. Was there a historic link with Scotland Southern Ireland prior to the Plantation?

Jon
02-10-2020, 01:25 PM
I must admit to being surprised with the number of southern Irish L193 members. Was there a historic link with Scotland Southern Ireland prior to the Plantation?

Do you mean southern Irish L193 - or L513? I do think L193 is primarily found in those with ancestry leading back to Scotland. In L513 though, lots of southern Irish. And yes, there always has been a close link between the south of Scotland (especially south west) and the whole island of Ireland. Not just Dalriada, but also informal migrations back and forth over the millennia. The main evidence that I'm aware of is: Ogham inscriptions; place names (in the south west of Scotland there are huge numbers of sites bearing witness to Irish missionary priests and saints) and of course, genetics.

Nqp15hhu
02-11-2020, 07:34 PM
Thatís ok. I donít usually associate ROI has having a connection to Scotland. There isnít much cultural evidence of that.

Nqp15hhu
06-07-2020, 10:09 PM
What happens to this group? https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/little/5791/

Where can I read Ann's papers and research?