M222 (L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222) downstream SNP tracking

[Dubhthach]

I see Iain Kennedy has reported that advanced notification of his results has him as M222* with regards to Chromo2 results. This puts him as the second known person with origins in Scotland in this part of M222. He mentions that up to 17% of samples fall into this grouping. Here's the quote form M222 mailing list.



--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Iain Kennedy <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:59 AM
Subject: [R-M222] Chromo2 raw results
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>


I have received advance notification of my raw results and after analysing the file it appears that I am ancestral for all the new SNPs in the Jim Wilson diagram. I have just double checked this directly with Jim to confirm. I have therefore placed myself provisionally right at the top of the diagram alongside Steve Lominac. Apparently 17% of samples so far are in this group but I don't know how many samples that is based on, it seems that the initial batch are back from the lab so it may be more than when the diagram was first released. My paper trail is entirely Scottish and traces back to Fortingall in Perthshire in 1660. No known Irish names are in this group so far. Make of it what you will, and I await more results eagerly. The upload of raw results is still a few days away so its probably best if we leave them to get on with it.

If and when people do get their results, if they wish to appear in the M222 diagram I am maintaining please can they send me a copy of their raw data file.

http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf



Iain


Here is a PNG version of Iain's M222 tree.
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/m222-nov2013.png

We also have another DF85+ in the form of 11952 (Barnett)

-Paul
(DF41+)

[rossa]

Are these new results giving a clearer picture of M222's entry to Ireland and it's spread?

[Dubhthach]

Are these new results giving a clearer picture of M222's entry to Ireland and it's spread?

Until Chromo2 results for M222 start coming in it's kinda hard to tell. Some of early analysis is pointing at Irish M222+ been mostly S661+. Whereas M222* (S661-) appears more scottish. This could point to origin point for M222 in Northern Britain (circa 2,000 years ago).

Once the results come in along with the "Big Y" results it's going to get interesting.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Dubhthach]

Another DF85+ result, MacAdam (88644)

-Paul
(DF41+)

[rossa]

Until Chromo2 results for M222 start coming in it's kinda hard to tell. Some of early analysis is pointing at Irish M222+ been mostly S661+. Whereas M222* (S661-) appears more scottish. This could point to origin point for M222 in Northern Britain (circa 2,000 years ago).

Once the results come in along with the "Big Y" results it's going to get interesting.

-Paul
(DF41+)

The Gallagher, Doherty & O'Donnell cluster is interesting. What about Cain/O'Kane and McLaughlin cluster (maybe early days to call a few a cluster) that seems more distant? I wonder if it will give a more complicated picture of the UiNiall surnames.

[Dubhthach]

The Gallagher, Doherty & O'Donnell cluster is interesting. What about Cain/O'Kane and McLaughlin cluster (maybe early days to call a few a cluster) that seems more distant? I wonder if it will give a more complicated picture of the UiNiall surnames.

At a casual glance you could be looking at the spilt between the Cinéal Chonaill (DF85?) and the Cinéal nEoghain (S588). These two "kindreds" made up the "Northern Uí Néill". Both share a common ancestry in the form of S660. What's going to be interesting is who comes out as S660+, DF85-, S588-. Or S661+, S660-

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Dubhthach]

One the M222 yahoo list we have the first confirmed S588*, this is a SNP parallel to DF85 both been subclades of S660.

McBride (235771) -- he has already tested DF85- with FTDNA which confirms ScotlandsDNA/Irelands/DNA propose clade structure under M222.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[TigerMW]

One the M222 yahoo list we have the first confirmed S588*, this is a SNP parallel to DF85 both been subclades of S660.

McBride (235771) -- he has already tested DF85- with FTDNA which confirms ScotlandsDNA/Irelands/DNA propose clade structure under M222.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Paul D,

I'm trying to get the M222 guys to post their Chromo 2 results in a Folder under Files on the L21 yahoo group. We need to start getting these saved all in one place before we get behind and lose track of them.

Dr. Wilson is supposed to send me a list of all their SNPs downstream of L21, the tree as he can tell it and then I'll be able to merge it in with Y DNA SNP report screen data and we'll get a consolidated view of the SNPs, rather than all manual note taking.

[Dubhthach]

New DF85+ in Ireland project:
N115028 -- Coleman

Two additional DF85-, we move DF85- into their own group within the project so as to seperate them out form the large M222 (DF85 untested) group.

271782 -- Thomason -- DF85-
N114844 -- Moran -- DF85-

Iain Kennedy posted the following updated trees:

http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf

http://www.kennedydna.com/S474.jpg

http://www.kennedydna.com/S474.jpg

S476 appears to be a SNP between DF49 and DF23. All DF23+ are S476+, however they must have found some DF49+,S476- men in ScotlandsDNA/IrelandsDNA testing.

The other key finding is a new SNP under M222. This is shaping up to be the "DF13 of M222". This SNP is S7073, according to Iain there is one confirmed M222+, S7073-, the testee is anonymous and of Scottish origin. Again it's pointing towards the North of Britain as source location for M222.




List

I have several updates to the M222 tree this evening. Jim Wilson has provided a list of SNPs which he considers phylogenetically equivalent to M222 and are (mostly) on the Chromo2 chip. As the list is now too long to force into a personal name in my tree I have also posted the raw tree diagram he sent me which primarily shows the top level above and below, so it is not a replacement for the whole earlier diagram.

There are three features in his new diagram:
1. What appears to be a new hg between S474/DF49 and S193/DF23 called S476 which is not on the ISOGG tree.
2. The new list of M222 equivalents
3. A new SNP below M222 called S7073.

I have moved everything at the root of M222 below S7073 but having not seen Steve Lominac's raw file yet I can't confirm that he is positive for it. I am as is Rob McBride too of course.

The other change to the diagram, which Rob McBride spotted and neither Jim nor I did is that he is positive for F3952, one of the SNPs we got off Geno 2.0 which previously only a Mitchell was positive for. I have double checked with Jim and he reviewed the raw genotype and agrees with this placement. My checking procedures have been amended accordingly and I have added Mitchell to the diagram too.

Upper tree update:

http://www.kennedydna.com/S474.jpg

Main tree from M222:

http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf

Iain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Iain Kennedy <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Revised M222 tree
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>


Yes there was a note of an unnamed Scot who is S7073- but it wasn't clear if he is the sole person in this group, my guess is that he is for the time being.

Iain





> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:04:22 +0000
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Revised M222 tree
>
> I'm assuming some M222+/S7073- have been found in Chromo2.0 results to
> result in new phylogeny. Otherwise they would have had it equivalent to
> M222.
>
> The new SNP between DF23 and DF49 will be useful for those DF49+ who have
> tested DF23-, that's for sure!
>
> -Paul
> (DF41+)
>

-Paul
(DF41+)

[RGM]

I have Chromo2 and an upgrade to 111 markers pending on my own line, but I've just got back 37-marker results for my maternal uncle, who is also confirmed M222 via 23andMe, and not quite sure what to make of them. He has DYS390=24 and DYS391=10, almost everything else follows the M222 modal. Surname is Lee. While I'm trying to be proactive with my own line, I think I might just wait a while on his line and see what other options present themselves. It's both frustrating and exciting to be part of M222 at the moment.

[RGM]

Got my Chromo2 results in today. Going by the M222 chart, I am S660+ and S659+, but S588- and S673-. I also tested DF85- at FTDNA. Looks like a few other S660* results also came in today, so it should be interesting moving forward.

[Dubhthach]

S660/S659 is looking like it's going to be the big one when it comes to M222 in Ireland anyways. What's your FTDNA kit number?

Iain Kennedy posted the following tree back in December.
http://www.kennedydna.com/M222_2013Dec16.jpg

-Paul
(DF41+)

[RGM]

S660/S659 is looking like it's going to be the big one when it comes to M222 in Ireland anyways. What's your FTDNA kit number?

Sorry, I keep forgetting that I'm not a celebrity.

B4058.

[Dubhthach]

In Ireland project we've (well my co-admin Margaret Jordan) have created a subgroup for men who are S660/S659* you and Callahan are in at the moment. No doubt this group will grow as more Chromo2 results come in.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[TigerMW]

Chromo 2 is a very nice test for M222+/NW Irish people. It provides some branching structure and subclade discernment that is sorely needed for such a large and youthful group.

You'll now see S series SNPs starting to show up in some reports. I've integrated Chromo 2 results into the R1b-L21_Haplotypes files and R1b-L21_Tree_Chart (for people who upload or send me their raw results). M222 gets a lot of benefit from some of the subdivisions. There is some interesting stuff that we might see about the early branching with M222.

[rivergirl]

I have a relative who is M222+
91925, Brennan

I havn't looked at his results in ages, and have no idea about the new SNPs.
Is there anywhere I can go to see which cluster he might be part of ?

I dont know if he has any yDNA sample left at FTDNA for further SNP testing, and I cant provide any more as he has passed away.
(The last test I ordered for him, (Family finder) did not have suffiicent sample available. )

[Dubhthach]

I see that Iain Kennedy has posted following update. It would seem that S668 is actually above DF97. The phlogeny would be:
M222+ -> S7073+ -> S658+ -> S661+ -> S660+/S659+ -> DF85+ -> S673+ -> S668+ -> DF97+



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Iain Kennedy
Date: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 8:15 PM
Subject: [R-M222] Another Chromo2 result
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>


List,

An important result has come in, Bill McCollum (DF85+ DF97-) is S668+ indicating S668 is between DF85 and DF97.

Iain

[TigerMW]

I see that Iain Kennedy has posted following update. It would seem that S668 is actually above DF97. The phlogeny would be:
M222+ -> S7073+ -> S658+ -> S661+ -> S660+/S659+ -> DF85+ -> S673+ -> S668+ -> DF97+

Yes, the S series of SNPs has a lot to offer for M222 people.

I just wish we could see those physical (standardized) locations for the S series to see how they line up with FGC results, YSEQ offerings or future Big Y results.

[TigerMW]

There are a lot of good things happening as far as discovering the M222 tree. There are over 1000 M222+ confirmed people in DNA projects, at the very least. There needs to be a separate thread for this.

[TigerMW]

....The phlogeny would be:
M222+ -> S7073+ -> S658+ -> S661+ -> S660+/S659+ -> DF85+ -> S673+ -> S668+ -> DF97+
The R1b-L21_Tree_Chart already is updated to reflect this. The next version of the haplotype spreadsheet will include this in the haplogroup label and remove S668=DF97 equivalence.


I'm using DF104 as the lead with SNP for the S661(identical to DF104) branch and I'm using DF106 as the lead with SNP for the S659(identical)/S660(equivalent) branch.

[RGM]

Can anyone confirm that at this point there aren't any clear individual SNP tests that Lee, kit 307501, should take? I'm aware that Chromo2 or the Big Y would be the best option, but the kit isn't mine and I'd like to keep the number of times I ask them to spit to a minimum. Clearly the M222 tree will be fleshed out further, possibly in the near future, so I'd like to wait before having them take another major test. But if FTDNA has enough of a sample left and there are individual SNPs that look promising, we could do that.

[Dubhthach]

I see Aidan Byrne has reported a S603+ result on M222 list. He also has Geno 2.0 testing done and I believe he's ordered Full Genome test:



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Aidan Byrne
Date: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:55 AM
Subject: [R-M222] Chromo2 Results.
To: dna-r1b[email protected]


Hi.

I'm after receiving my Chromo2 results. My subtype is S603.

- Aidan.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message


S588 the parent clade of S603 is looking somewhat Cinéal nEoghain compared to DF85/S675 which has several surnames linked to Cinéal Chonaill in it.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[cilldara]

I've received my Chromo2 results. According to BritainsDNA my subtype (S603) "has been seen predominantly in Scotland."

1256

[Dubhthach]

I've received my Chromo2 results. According to BritainsDNA my subtype (S603) "has been seen predominantly in Scotland."

1256

I would imagine that's based off their initial run. If you look at Iain Kennedy's tree, alot of public known surnames in that the wider S588 (of which S603 is a subclade of) are Irish:

http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf

It would probably be worthwhile to download the raw data and send it onto Mike, think he is correlating them within L21 yahoo group.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[cilldara]

S588 and DF85 are big dividers within the M222 family. Does anyone have any opinions on them? I wonder how old are they?

[Dubhthach]

Iain Kennedy posted a new image showing the current known tree phylogeny under M222

http://www.kennedydna.com/M222_tree.png

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Heber]

Paul,
I am counting 33 Potential SNPs below M222 on the BISDNA Tree and Genographic reported 32 in the Mayo project so I suspect the consolidated number should be higher as they are using different platforms and different sample groups. With the imminent BIG Y and FGC results this should yield a good harvest.

[MacUalraig]

Paul,
I am counting 33 Potential SNPs below M222 on the BISDNA Tree and Genographic reported 32 in the Mayo project so I suspect the consolidated number should be higher as they are using different platforms and different sample groups. With the imminent BIG Y and FGC results this should yield a good harvest.

That's just counting the placed SNPs. There I would guess at least another 70-80 discovered but unplaced ones from FGC testing.

[Dubhthach]

Paul,
I am counting 33 Potential SNPs below M222 on the BISDNA Tree and Genographic reported 32 in the Mayo project so I suspect the consolidated number should be higher as they are using different platforms and different sample groups. With the imminent BIG Y and FGC results this should yield a good harvest.

Gerard,

We won't know until the actual information about the SNP's (position etc.) are published. At the moment we are in the dark, from what I recall there are at least a dozen (if not a couple dozen) SNP's that are equivalent to M222 alone.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Dubhthach]

As a note we have a new DF105+ in the Ireland project

Ivers (278775) -- he's tested to 67 STR's and is member of M222 project as well.

The name could potentially be Uí Fhiachrach (descendents of Fiachrae -- half brother of Niall). It could also be scottish in origin though. The personal name it's based on is the norse Ivarr borrowed into middle-Irish.

Here's what Woulfe has (1923 book)
---
Ó hIOMHAIR, Ó hÍOMHAIR—II—O Hyver, O Heiver, O Hewer, O Hiur, O Houre, O Hoare, O Hawrde, O'Hure, Heever, Hever, Hoare, Howard, Ivors, Ivers, Eivers, &c.; 'descendant of Iomhar' or 'Íomhar' (the Norse personal name Ivarr); the name (1) of a Sligo family of the Ui Fiachrach race who were formerly seated at Leacan, now anglicised Lackan, on the east side of Killala Bay; and (2) of a Thomond family, now numerous in Clare and Limerick, but generally known in English as Howards.
--
Mac ÍOMHAIR, Mac IOMHAIR—V—M'Eiver, M'Kewer, MacIvor, MacIver, MacKiver, MacKiever, MacKiver, MacKever, MacKevor, MacKeever, MacKeevor, MacCure, MacIvers, Ivers, Eivers, Keevers, &c.; 'son of Ivarr' (an old Scandinavian personal name); a common surname in the North of Ireland, apparently of Scottish origin. See Mag Íomhair which is the form in use in the West.
-
Mag ÍOMHAIR—V—M'Givor, MacGeevor, MacGeever, MacGaver; a variant of Mac Íomhair, which see.
---

In this case the tester is actually from Ireland and not of the diaspora.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Kwheaton]

Hi all,

I have recently got back my cousins kit PADEN 341945 and all his matches are M222 so I suspect highly that he is as well and he is listed as Niall. We initially only tested to 37 markers and I am doubtful of getting very far as the matching two PEDEN and PADDON kits have only tested to 12 and 25 respectively. I have joined the FTDNA M222 project and am looking for advice on possible SNPS to test. The closest matches have not done much SNP testing only confirmed M222. The 12/12 Peden match is from Coleraine, Londonderry. The other PADDON looks to be from Ayrshire. Closest other surnames are MCHARG 34/37 (6) and MAXWELL 36/37 (10) also a couple of KEITH, MCKEE, and 2 LOWERY---but again no downstream testing. Do I cautiously test a SNP or two via YSEQ.com, wait for a new DEEP Clade or similar panel down the road. Not flush with cash for this endeavor as just finished sponsoring a Full Y on my hubby (R-L2).

Looking for any advice, ideas, suggestions.
Thanks in advance
Kelly

[RGM]

Hi all,

I have recently got back my cousins kit PADEN 341945 and all his matches are M222 so I suspect highly that he is as well and he is listed as Niall. We initially only tested to 37 markers and I am doubtful of getting very far as the matching two PEDEN and PADDON kits have only tested to 12 and 25 respectively. I have joined the FTDNA M222 project and am looking for advice on possible SNPS to test. The closest matches have not done much SNP testing only confirmed M222. The 12/12 Peden match is from Coleraine, Londonderry. The other PADDON looks to be from Ayrshire. Closest other surnames are MCHARG 34/37 (6) and MAXWELL 36/37 (10) also a couple of KEITH, MCKEE, and 2 LOWERY---but again no downstream testing. Do I cautiously test a SNP or two via YSEQ.com, wait for a new DEEP Clade or similar panel down the road. Not flush with cash for this endeavor as just finished sponsoring a Full Y on my hubby (R-L2).

Looking for any advice, ideas, suggestions.
Thanks in advance
Kelly

Hi, Kelly. It's thought that some Padens may get their name from Mac Phaidin, more commonly anglicized as McFadden or McFadyen. Any McFaddens among your cousin's matches?

Whether you do or not, I run the McFadden project at FTDNA and we'd love to have you join. We're too small at this point to be able to be of much use, but slowly growing. The more the merrier.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mcfadden/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

[Kwheaton]

Hi, Kelly. It's thought that some Padens may get their name from Mac Phaidin, more commonly anglicized as McFadden or McFadyen. Any McFaddens among your cousin's matches?

Whether you do or not, I run the McFadden project at FTDNA and we'd love to have you join. We're too small at this point to be able to be of much use, but slowly growing. The more the merrier.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mcfadden/default.aspx?section=ycolorized


Happy to join if it helps. No McFadden's etc matches at 12-25-or 37. Actually the TIP reports show 78.24% probability of a match with MAXWELL in 12 generations and 97.66% within 24. Slightly higher for KEITH 78.28% and 99.29% and a smidgen higher for MCHARG with 78.40 and 99.30% respectively. The tip report on the Peden match is based on only 12 markers and the individual is no longer contactable. What I have found in my WHEATON Surname project is that there were at least 5-6 separate name adoptions within the same county in England in the 1300's and some of this may be true in these Scots/Irish lines as well. So you just never know. It could just be that the various McPaddens etc are just based on the diminutive of Patrick: Paidin. And as you probably know the "P" and "F" are pretty interchangeable.
Kelly

[RGM]

Happy to join if it helps. No McFadden's etc matches at 12-25-or 37. Actually the TIP reports show 78.24% probability of a match with MAXWELL in 12 generations and 97.66% within 24. Slightly higher for KEITH 78.28% and 99.29% and a smidgen higher for MCHARG with 78.40 and 99.30% respectively. The tip report on the Peden match is based on only 12 markers and the individual is no longer contactable. What I have found in my WHEATON Surname project is that there were at least 5-6 separate name adoptions within the same county in England in the 1300's and some of this may be true in these Scots/Irish lines as well. So you just never know. It could just be that the various McPaddens etc are just based on the diminutive of Patrick: Paidin. And as you probably know the "P" and "F" are pretty interchangeable.
Kelly

It would, actually. It's one of those things where people are more likely to participate in something if they see that other people are already doing it. The McFadden project just needs warm bodies at this point.

The Tip reports are interesting, but you have to be careful with them. Especially when you're in a haplogroup like M222 that expanded rapidly. People who are close to the M222 modal values will get a lot of matches that are probably not related in any meaningful way. There is one guy I've seen who literally has 2300 matches at the 25-marker level.

[Kwheaton]

Not able to get my PADEN cousin to test at YSEQ but he was fine with using the sample at FTDNA so ordered DF105 and DF85. Some obviously unavailable at FTDNA so this is a start....I did not order but if these are positive I would try DF97.

Kelly

[Dubhthach]

Just a note in the Ireland project I sponsored a McManus (H1135) for A259, his result has come back as positive. This individual has a GD of 4 from a senior member of the "O'Conor Don" line, and appears to be of McManus of Roscommon family (McManus of Fermanagh are L513+)

Quote from Wolfe (1923)


Mac MAGHNUIS, Mac MAGHNUSA—V—M'Manish, M'Moenassa, MacManus, MacManis, Manus, Manasses; 'son of Maghnus' (Latin 'Magnus,' a name adopted by the Northmen in honour of Charlemagne—Carolus Magnus—and by them introduced into Ireland, anglicised Manus); the name (1) of a Roscommon family, descended from Maghnus, son of Turlough Mor O'Connor, King of Ireland, who was slain in the year 1181, formerly seated in Tirhoohil;


The implication give that we have Byrne, Fallon and O'Reilly A259+ results is that the Uí Briúin of Connacht are potentially A259+. What's intersting of course is that the O'Reilly's belong to the Uí Briúin Bréifne which spilt from the Uí Briúin Aí (O'Connor, McManus etc, Fallon, Byrne.) in the 6th century.

The Byrne's and Fallon's technically form a branch under the Uí Briúin Aí genealogy known as Clann Uatach (the children of Uatu -- who lived in late 8th century).

[Mike Wilson]

Mines just one day into the Testing phase, here's hoping it's not 78 days like the Beta test was:3238

[Dubhthach]

Just looking at my previous message, that McManus (H1135) is awaiting a result for FGC5939, be interesting to see how he tests for that. I'm still annoyed that FTDNA didn't include A259 in their M222 testing bundle, it's similiar to situation with regards to DF41 vis-à-vis CTS2501.

[dp]

Dear Mike,
Welcome to Anthrogenica. :wave:
I myself am upstream waiting for a DF49 Deep Clade test.
David Powell
dp :-)

[Mike Wilson]

324232433244

[Mike Wilson]

My Ysearch result 20 STR's and 2 deviations... 3246

[Mike Wilson]

I am part of Batch 601; no expected completion date yet.

[David Wilson]

Mike, have you joined either the R-M222 Project or the Wilson project at FTDNA?

I'm not clear if you are MPPS9 in the table segment in your first post. If so, you might want to take a look at X47H8 in Ysearch -- matches 19/20 and offers dozens more STR values that might (or, to be realistic, might not) predict what most of your future results could be.

[Mike Wilson]

David

Ran that but looks like I will just have to wait and see, BTW I joined up on FTDNA M222+ group a few months ago.

Mike

[Mike Wilson]

Since I last looked before Xmas they have added a one I could purchase

under CTS12173 I now have

DF97

In blue so it's a Test Available.

[Dubhthach]

So it seems that that we have our first A259+/A260-



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Wilson [email protected] [R1b-M222-Project] <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:53 PM
Subject: RE: [R1b-M222-Project] Big Y report for 312908 appears to divide A259 from A260 -- UPDATE: SPLIT CONFIRMED
To: [email protected]



Confirmation from BAM file inspection by Iain Kennedy: A259 and A260 are split, with A260 lying downstream of A259.
David Wilson

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 6:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-M222-Project] Big Y report for 312908 appears to divide A259 from A260

Results for Johnson 312908 (adoption in a recent generation; patrilineal surname Connelly) show A259 derived and do not mention A260. Furthermore, not one of the known SNPs below A259 or A260 is reported as positive, so we cannot deduce the state of A260 from downstream evidence.
The VCF file shows A259 as a high quality SNP and does not include A260, so it’s not a matter of a weak read on a SNP that could be derived. The BED file shows that the range including A260 was reliably read in the testing process.
The overall results reported every expected SNP down to the A259 level, and then another 15 NVs that are not shared with any other individual.
The representative of the tested individual has given me permission to report this summary to the lists.
Just as a footnote, results for this Big Y test were returned in 30 days – ordered late November, back for Christmas.
David Wilson




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Iain Kennedy via <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:41 PM
Subject: [R-M222] A259 & A260
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>


I've just had a chance to view the raw data for the kit that was supposed to split these SNPs so can now confirm it is A259+ A260-
(Johnson 312908) as predicted by David Wilson from the VCF and BED files. Thanks to the kit owner for sharing.

I'm trying to round everything up for a tree update and hopefully it should be ready in the next day or two. The current live version is still the one from Dec. 22nd.

Iain



A260 is part of the FTDNA bundle, they hadn't included A259 (Even though it was already available as indidivual snp with people tested positive for it).

As an aside I've sponsored one of the two A259+ McManus's for A260, this lineage appears to be FGC5939- so it's worthwhile to see if they are also positive for A260 (particulary given links this surname has to O'Conor's of Connacht)

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Jessie]

My brother is confirmed M222 on FTDNA so I've ordered the M222 SNP Pack. I don't know the difference between the M222 Bundle and M222 SNP Pack but the SNP Pack was the one that came up on the Order Form. My father was from Boyle, Co Roscommon. It would be nice to pinpoint some links to other M222s in Ireland.

[Dubhthach]

My brother is confirmed M222 on FTDNA so I've ordered the M222 SNP Pack. I don't know the difference between the M222 Bundle and M222 SNP Pack but the SNP Pack was the one that came up on the Order Form. My father was from Boyle, Co Roscommon. It would be nice to pinpoint some links to other M222s in Ireland.

Jessie, Boyle is right in middle of "M222 country" in the west of Ireland that's for sure going on evidence we are seeing so far. What's your paternal surname as a matter of interest?

-Paul

[Jessie]

Jessie, Boyle is right in middle of "M222 country" in the west of Ireland that's for sure going on evidence we are seeing so far. What's your paternal surname as a matter of interest?

-Paul

Surname is Carroll. My FTDNA kit no is 358888. My brother is in the Carroll Project, L21, M222 and also the Ireland Project. It would be interesting to find a link to the Uí Néill or some other branch. I'm really the only family member interested in genetics although my father would have been fascinated if he was still alive.

I just thought I'd add that my father used to tell us his family were descended from Princes :) but we always found this quite amusing. I always wondered if there was some connection to the Princes of Oriel (The O'Carroll Oriel) as they were in Louth but that doesn't appear to be the case.

[Huntergatherer1066]

My brother is confirmed M222 on FTDNA so I've ordered the M222 SNP Pack. I don't know the difference between the M222 Bundle and M222 SNP Pack but the SNP Pack was the one that came up on the Order Form. My father was from Boyle, Co Roscommon. It would be nice to pinpoint some links to other M222s in Ireland.

They're the same thing, the M222 Bundle was the early name for it then it was changed to SNP Pack

[Mike Wilson]

Still waiting naturally

Awaiting Lab Results
Awaiting Tests
Tests Lab Procedure Batch Expected Notes
M222 SNP Pack SMS-M222 601

[Mike Wilson]

A reposting from Yahoo Groups: In the last 24 hours results for more than 50 M222 SNP Packs were posted. There are still a dozen SNP Pack orders in the “pending” list. The line between those groups is not crisp, because at least one of the supposedly completed Packs still had R-M222 as a terminal SNP and showed the “testing in progress” color code for all SNPS below M222.

Mine's still pending as there is an issue with FGC 5939

A260
R-A260

Z70
R-Z70
FGC5939
R-FGC5939
PF3988

[Mike Wilson]

So sad just seeing this still

M222 BY196 Y2601 Y2602

R-M222

FGC4077
R-FGC4077
A725
R-A725
FGC12948
R-FGC12948
M4491
R-M4491
A359
R-A359
S566S568
R-S568
S658
R-S658
DF104
R-DF104
F1400
R-F1400
CTS11548BY197
R-CTS11548
DF105DF109
R-DF105
PF3292
R-PF3292
CTS8580
R-CTS8580
CTS9501
R-CTS9501
PF910
R-PF910
A223
R-A223
A224
R-A224
A260
R-A260
Z70
R-Z70
FGC5939
R-FGC5939
PF3988
R-PF3988
BY198
R-BY198
CTS10488
R-CTS10488
FGC4133
R-FGC4133
FGC4134
R-FGC4134
S588
R-S588
F499
R-F499
PF7301
R-PF7301
S7049
R-S7049
S7814
R-S7814
PF2028
R-PF2028
BY199More...
R-BY199
DF85
R-DF85
S673
R-S673
CTS3771
R-CTS3771
S668
R-S668
CTS12173
R-CTS12173
DF97FGC8739
R-FGC8739
CTS8002
R-CTS8002
M226
R-M226
CTS6

Used Gold as it's too much work to use the Red and Orange for all the rest as displayed on FTDNA.

[Jessie]

My brother is now confirmed S588 after some initial mixup where he was FGC5939 and R-S588. Does anyone know much about S588 and is FTDNA going to add some of the further snps downstream from there? Also is S588 mainly Irish?

[MacUalraig]

I would say S588 is too old and too much movement has occurred since then to determine if its 'Irish' or 'Scottish' - it certainly has a good mix of both.
You should find all the SNPs below it at YSEQ and family tree with the key exception of S603 (so far) which is only at YSEQ.

YFull have its age as 1750y on their tree:
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M222/

Current tree (http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf)with all results

[Huntergatherer1066]

My brother is now confirmed S588 after some initial mixup where he was FGC5939 and R-S588. Does anyone know much about S588 and is FTDNA going to add some of the further snps downstream from there? Also is S588 mainly Irish?

It looks like your brother is negative for all of the SNPs on the M222 Bundle Pack that are downstream of S588 (F499, PF7301, S7049, S7814, PF2028, BY199-BY205), so look for the SNPs that are not downstream of any of these.

[Jessie]

It looks like your brother is negative for all of the SNPs on the M222 Bundle Pack that are downstream of S588 (F499, PF7301, S7049, S7814, PF2028, BY199-BY205), so look for the SNPs that are not downstream of any of these.

There are snps under S588 that FTDNA haven't added such as S603.

[Dubhthach]

In Irish context S588 appears linked to surnames connected to Cinéal nEoghain (Cenél nEógain in Old Irish). Early days though, like other major DF105 clades such as DF85 and A259 you are seeing ages that would point the specific SNP's arising at about (or just before) the "dawn of recorded history" in Ireland (eg. arrival of christianity)

[Jessie]

In Irish context S588 appears linked to surnames connected to Cinéal nEoghain (Cenél nEógain in Old Irish). Early days though, like other major DF105 clades such as DF85 and A259 you are seeing ages that would point the specific SNP's arising at about (or just before) the "dawn of recorded history" in Ireland (eg. arrival of christianity)

So that is more Northern Uí Neill than Southern? I don't suppose there is much information on the net about this. Might have to test S603 at yseq.

[Dubhthach]

So that is more Northern Uí Neill than Southern? I don't suppose there is much information on the net about this. Might have to test S603 at yseq.

Yup Northern Uí Néill, by the 9th century the Cenél nEógain had excluded the Cenél Conaill from the Kingship of Aileach (In Tuaisceart == "The North"), likewise in the South Clann Chólmain had excluded Síl nÁedo Sláine from the overkingship.

These two dynastical groups then operated a system of rotation when it came to the titular Highkingship eg. a Cenél nEógain HighKing would be succeed by a Clann Cholmáin Highking, who in turn would be suceed by a Cenél nEógain highking (etc. etc.)

Of course the earliest layer of history of Uí Néill has undergone rewriting for political reasons to reflect this shift in dynamics by late 9th century, so for example some of other Uí Néill "kindreds" basically got written out of history/side lined, usually using the favourite political tool of having St. Patrick damn their titular ancestor (examples include Cairbre, Fiachu, Laoghaire etc.)

For more of that see this Chapter from "Early Christian Ireland"
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/eci_ui_neill.html

[Dubhthach]

We now have a S588+ O'Neill in the Ireland project. I had sponsored him for both DF105 and S588.

[Dubhthach]

some other news which I posted on relevant mailing lists:


Finally got a bunch of sponsored results back:

O'Rourke (252995) -- A259+
Ford (155225) -- A259+
Costigan (239642) -- A259+
Kernan (251396 ) -- A259+

The significance of this is that O'Rourke, Ford and Kernan are all Uí Briúin Bréifne names, not only that but they belong to distinct kindreds within the Uí Briúin Bréifne.

---
Ó RUAIRC—II—O Ruairc, O Rowarke, O'Rourke, O'Roarke, O'Rorke, Rourke, Roarke, Rorke, &c.; 'descendant of Ruarc' (older Ruadhrac, from Norse Hrothrekr); the name of several distinct families in different parts of Ireland. The O'Rourkes of Breifney, one of the most celebrated families in Irish history, were chiefs of the great clan of Ui Briuin Breifne, whose territory comprised the present counties of Leitrim and Cavan. Three of them, in the 10th and 11th centuries, were kings of Connacht. As lords of Breifney, they sometimes ruled over a district extending from Kells in Meath to Drumcliff in Sligo; but after the 12th century, their power gradually declined. O'Reilly became lord of East Breifney, the present Co. Cavan, and O'Rourke's lordship was confined to West Breifney, the present Co. Leitrim, which was known as Breifney-O'Rourke. The O'Rourkes took a leading part in the Elizabethan wars, in which they suffered severely, but retained considerable property down to the Cromwellian confiscations. Many of them attained to high distinction in the military service of continental powers, especially of Poland and Russia. A branch of the Ui Maine, in Co. Galway, also bore this name, but was never very numerous and, if it survives, cannot now be distinguished from Ó Ruairc of Breifney. The same applies to the other families of the name, some of whom are mentioned above under the form of Ó Ruadhraic.

---
Mac CONSHNÁMHA—IV—M'Conave, M'Kinnawe, M'Enawe, MacAnawe, Kinnavy, Kineavy; (Adams); Forde, Ford; 'son of Cú-rhnámha' (the swimming-hound, expert swimmer); the name of a family in Co. Leitrim who were formerly chiefs of Muinter Kenny, in the present barony of Dromahaire. It was popularly supposed to be 'Mac an Átha,' son of the ford, and was accordingly 'translated' Ford, Forde. I find it also anglicised Adams, which shows that it must have been sometimes mistaken for Mac Ádhaimh, which see.

---
Mac THIGHEARNÁIN—IV—M'Kiernane, M'Kemane, MacKiernan, MacKernan, MacCarnon, MacHarnon, Kiernan, Kernan, Kernon, and, by translation, Lord; 'son of Tighearnán' (diminutive of 'tighearna,' a lord); the name (1) of a branch of the O'Connors in Co. Roscommon, who are descended from Tighearnán, grandson of Turlough Mor O'Connor, King of Ireland; (2) of a Breifney family, of the same stock as the O'Rourkes, who were formerly chiefs ofTellach Dhunchadha, now the barony of Tullyhunco, in the west of Co. Cavan; and (3) of a Fermanagh family, of the same stock as the Maguires, who were formerly chiefs of Clann Fearghaile. See Mac Tighearnáin.
---
TEALLACH DHUNCHADHA, household of Dunchadh, son of Maonach, the eighth in descent from Duach Galach, son of Brion, son of Eochaidh Muighmheadhoin, King of Ireland; a branch of the Ui Briuin, which see; the clan-name of the MacKernans; now represented by the barony of Tullyhunco, in the west of Co. Cavan.
---

Ford (as angliscation of Mac Conshnámha) belongs to Tellach Cerbhaill which is a branch of Muinter Mailmórda -- the senior line of which is the O'Reilly family. Kernan as a Tellach nDúnchadha family last shared a common genealogical connection to Muinter Mailmórda in the 6th century. (see Bart Jaski's tree).

-Paul
(DF41+)


What I'd forgotten in above mail is that Costigan is actually a McGovern by MDKA, the McGovern's were the main family of Tellach Echadh


---
Mag SHAMHRADHÁIN, Mag SHAMHRÁIN—IV—Magoveran, Magovern, Magawran, Magauran, Magaurn, Magurn, MacGaveran, MacGovran, MacGovern, MacGowran, MacGouran, MacGauran, MacGaurn, Gooravan, Gorevan, Gorevin, &c.; 'son of Samhradhán' (diminutive of samhradh, summer); the name of an old Breifney family, the head of which was chief of Tellach Eachach, now the barony of Tullyhaw, in the north-west of Co. Cavan; still very numerous.

-
TEALLACH EACHACH, household of Eochaidh, son of Maonach (see Teallach Dhunchadha); a branch of the Ui Briuin, which see; the clan-name of the Magurans; now represented by the barony of Tullyhaw, in the north-west of Co. Cavan.
---

Within context of Uí Briúin Bréifne, the "Tellach Echach" and "Tellach nDúnchadha" form an early branch, Bart Jaski's tree shows them grouped together as "Cenél Brénnainn"

See Bart's tree here:
www.academia.edu/4144299/Genealogical_tables_of_medieval_Irish_royal_dynast ies (pg 153 -- if you download the pdf it's page 91 of 126)

[Jessie]

Thanks for all your posts Dubhthach. I'm especially impressed with your knowledge of Irish names and their history. Someone was saying that S603 is now available for testing at FTDNA but it doesn't appear for order on my brother's tree yet. It would be great if it does become available.

[MacUalraig]

Thanks for all your posts Dubhthach. I'm especially impressed with your knowledge of Irish names and their history. Someone was saying that S603 is now available for testing at FTDNA but it doesn't appear for order on my brother's tree yet. It would be great if it does become available.

It's available under Upgrade/Advanced orders, select SNP and type in S603 and there it is. They may not have registered it as part of their tree yet, they tend to only use internal evidence so that might have to wait for a few already placed people to get a result with them.

[Dubhthach]

Thanks for all your posts Dubhthach. I'm especially impressed with your knowledge of Irish names and their history. Someone was saying that S603 is now available for testing at FTDNA but it doesn't appear for order on my brother's tree yet. It would be great if it does become available.

Thanks well I tend to spend way too much of my income on books such as the following:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/bedtime-reading.jpeg

[rossa]

Has anything important been revealed in recent M222 testing? Is there any patterns popping up with surnames, for example?

[Dubhthach]

Has anything important been revealed in recent M222 testing? Is there any patterns popping up with surnames, for example?

Most certantly, up until recently we just had M222 as a massive monolith which wasn't particulary usefull. We are now seeing certain connected surnames showing up under the same SNP's.

So for example (been from the west of Ireland I'm actually really interested in this branch and I'm DF41+!!)
A259: appears to be defining SNP for the Uí Briúin. It was originally regarded as been equivalent to A260, as a result rather unfortunatly FTDNA didn't include it in it's M222 bundle (but did include A260).

The Uí Briúin are one of the three Connachta who claim descent from Brion the older half-brother of Niall Noígiallach.

In the post above all the surnames that had tested A259+ are Uí Briúin and specifically "Uí Briúin Bréifne" (eg. O'Rourke, O'Reilly, Kernan, McGovern) surnames.

DF85 appears linked to several Cenél Conaill (Northern Uí Néill) surnames of Donegal
S588 appears linked to several Cenél nEogain (Northern Uí Néill) surnames.

The current substructure under M222 looks like this, it obviously underwent a bottleneck (there are over 25 SNP's that are equivalent to M222!) followed by rapid expansion, if indeed it's primary SNP linked to Uí Néill and their Connachta brethern (they make up the "Dál Cuinn" -- descendants of Conn Cétchathach -- Conn of the Hundred Battles), than such a rapid expansion/prolifeation of subclades would actually make sense given the historical narrative which sees them exploding out and basically dominating northern half of Ireland (north of line from Galway to Dublin eg. Leath Cuinn -- Conn's half) over a very short period of 100-200 years.

[Dubhthach]

"The fact is, we know less about the origin of the Uí Néill, and therefore of the Connachta and Airgialla, than of any other major people in Ireland. The Uí Néill emerge into history like a school of cuttlefish from a large ink-cloud of their own manufacture; and clouds and ink continued to be manufactured by them or for them throughout their long career. Only one thing seems consistent, their claim of sole right to the kingship of Tara."

https://books.google.ie/books?id=1g57cMJMXtwC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=u%C3%AD+n%C3%A9ill+cuttlefish+ink+of+history&source=bl&ots=zy6Q0a-m-0&sig=O3EZySmf5nhhCv_N7dXLgx4-zhk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mAQbVfS_D8aC7gaVt4HoAg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=u%C3%AD%20n%C3%A9ill%20cuttlefish%20ink%20of%20h istory&f=false

Says it all ;)

That "cuttlefish analogy" is generally used in several works, it's quite apt as with the arrival of christianity came the written word and one of the key aspects of Early Ireland was the astute use of political propaganda and rewriting of history using the tools of manuscript and ink.

[rossa]

Thanks, I'm on the Rootsweb mailing list, but between their old format and Yahoo Mails recent change that makes reading chains a nightmare, I wasn't able to follow developments.
Regarding the school of cuttlefish analogy, does it seem that instead of a dynasty emerging within Ireland that a "proto-dynasty" arrived and then expanded even more?

[Dubhthach]

Rossa,

Well the whole "weave" of genealogical/dynastical tradition of Dál Cuinn claims a common origin with later fission into seperate "threads" so when you think of the main dynastical groups operating during the 9th-10th century within Leath Cuinn (Conn's half) you have the Uí Néill, the Uí Briúin and the Uí Fiachrach (Uí nAilleo were basically wiped out at beginning of 8th century -- they were the third of the "Three Connachta") all 3 of these "dynasties" claim descent from one man who is traditionally placed as having lived in the 4th century.

This been Eochaid Mugmedón (Eochaidh the slave-lord), of course this might be a genealogical falsehood uniting powerful dynasts which were connected anyway (say at tribal level -- as can be seen by presence of M222 and more specifically DF105 among some of surnames linked).

The Dál Cuinn were earlier known as the Moccu Cuinn -- moccu is a word that you see on ogham stones but which stopped been used in Old Irish period, it's generally translated as "tribe" and glossed as "gens" in latin commentary, so "Moccu Cuinn" = "Tribe of Conn"

Conn been Conn Cétchathach (Conn of the Hundred battles), what's interesting about Conn is that the earliest kinglists are poem-saga's involving Conn (involving prophecy etc.) so he's clearly important character in the overall mythos of these dynastical groups. His grandfather been Tuathal Techtmar whose story perhaps represents a quasi-historical account of movement from northern Britain into northern half of Ireland (in 1-2nd century AD)

[Dubhthach]

In other news McManus (H1081) who was confirmed A259+ has come back with an A260- result. This is significant as only one A259+/A260- man is known and that was via BigY testing. In McManus case his testing was viable individual SNP's. What's interesting of course is McManus family of Roscommon are regarded as been a branch of the O'Connor's having spilt off in early 13th century. This individual (along with our other A259+ McManus) has a match at 67 markers with a senior member of the O'Conor family.

[Jessie]

My brother has come back S603-. He is R-S588+ so I'm not sure if that is it as far as testing his y-dna line.

He is a genetic distance of 5 at 67 strs to 2 McGees and 1 McGeehan.

[MacUalraig]

Branches under S588 are:
S7814
S603
F3952
S7049
A5386-90

so it depends on which tests you have done.

[Jessie]

Branches under S588 are:
S7814
S603
F3952
S7049
A5386-90

so it depends on which tests you have done.

Only done the S603 test. I didn't realise there was much more under S588. I suppose it might be more economical to test at Y-seq or possibly wait until FTDNA update their testing.

[MacUalraig]

Definitely a good move to use YSEQ IMHO.

[Dubhthach]

A rather interesting map based on the Chromo 2.0 dataset, it's only of M222 (comparison map with S660 would be interesting!), it would be good to have fineer grain territorial division as well as an idea of how many men were tested per region:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/m222_spread.png

[TigerMW]

A rather interesting map based on the Chromo 2.0 dataset, it's only of M222 (comparison map with S660 would be interesting!), it would be good to have fineer grain territorial division as well as an idea of how many men were tested per region:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/m222_spread.png

I find it ironic that we see 0% M222 on the Wales, but when it comes to finding DF49+ M222- people, Wales and Welsh surnames have a way of popping up.

Maybe there is a second irony. If it is so (and I don't know that it is) that Irish pirates took St. Patrick from Wales, apparently, they were not there long, at least if there was M222+ in the groups.

[Dubhthach]

I find it ironic that we see 0% M222 on the Wales, but when it comes to finding DF49+ M222- people, Wales and Welsh surnames have a way of popping up.

Maybe there is a second irony. If it is so (and I don't know that it is) that Irish pirates took St. Patrick from Wales, apparently, they were not there long, at least if there was M222+ in the groups.

Well there's also a tradition that St. Patrick is form Cumbria, thence when people will say "St. Patrick" was Welsh, ye get others saying no he was Scottish. In reality neither existed in the 5th century so at most you could call him a a Briton (Brythonic speaker).

What's intersting about the map is I wonder if the examples of 1-2% in England are result of migration. I do think it's significant the jump to 5% in England North. Which is consistent in Scotland South-East (where there was minimum amount of Gaelic influence -- though some).

I should note as school children the basic story most irish children are told about St. Patrick is that he was kidnapped by Níall himself!

[Mike Wilson]

Just out in the last couple of hours (Friday 15 May 7pm, GMT + 9:30)

M222+ Y2601+ Y2602+ BY196+

R-M222
S658+
DF104+

BY197- CTS11548-

I end here DF105+ DF109+

but now can do FGC5856.

There are 46 of us now

Kennedy
O'Connell
Grannary
Munroe
Kenney
Moreland
John
Power
Sherry
Allen (adopted)
Walton
Cryans
Manley
Dempsey
Meredith
Welch
Hynes
Gwinn
Brown
Liddane
Ivers
Moore
Wilson
Smith
Butler
Whelan(Early)
Larsson
DePew
Moran
Leonard
Lee
Fergus
Dunn C/o M. Head
Bell
Russell
McFadden
McCord
Allred
Manley
Kelly
McCune
Milligan
Mullins
Reilly
McDermott
Porter-MacDaibhéid

[Jessie]

In other news McManus (H1081) who was confirmed A259+ has come back with an A260- result. This is significant as only one A259+/A260- man is known and that was via BigY testing. In McManus case his testing was viable individual SNP's. What's interesting of course is McManus family of Roscommon are regarded as been a branch of the O'Connor's having spilt off in early 13th century. This individual (along with our other A259+ McManus) has a match at 67 markers with a senior member of the O'Conor family.

My Great Great Grandfather was Owen McManus from Roscommon. That's interesting about the O'Conor family.

[AGKnsYab]

Just an observation S603 is not part of the M222 Bundle pack it may be worth checking this out and possibly testing for this as a single SNP
as Jessie has commented on ta kns

[Dubhthach]

Just an observation S603 is not part of the M222 Bundle pack it may be worth checking this out and possibly testing for this as a single SNP
as Jessie has commented on ta kns

It's a good point, though only applicable for those who come back as R-S588 from bundle result. For those who get a R-DF105 result (negative for the DF105 subclades such as DF85, S588), it might be worth testing A259, when the bundle was designed A259 and A260 were seen as been equivalent for some reason they picked A260 over A259 to be included which is unfortunate as we have since found men who are A259+/A260-

[drouhin]

Hello everyone. Found this thread after a Google search.
My father's M222 SNP pack results just came in. He's FGC5939+, surname Murphy . Most distant documented patrilineal ancestor is Ignatius Murphy from Feakle, County Clare. Oral family history has it that the Murphys moved to Clare from somewhere in Galway. He's CAJ43 on ysearch, kit number 145108 at ftdna.

[Dubhthach]

Welcome to the thread, FGC5939 is a sub-branch of wider A260, which is turn is branch of A259. It would seem that surnames that fall into this section of M222 are generally from west of Ireland. Obviously Murphy is very common irish surname and arose multiple independent times (Murchadh was extremely popular first name).

My own theory is that A259 is linked to Uí Briúin of Connacht, there is a Murphy family that is branch of the Uí Briúin.



Mac Murchadha of Clann Tomaltaigh in Connacht
---
CLANN TOMALTAIGH, race of Tomaltach, clan-name of the MacMurroughs of the Magh Aoi, in Co. Roscommon.


I'd recommend you join your father's kit to the Ireland yDNA Project. We have one of large numbers of A260+ (and FGC5939+) men out there:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ireland-heritage

-Paul

[rms2]

Hello everyone. Found this thread after a Google search.
My father's M222 SNP pack results just came in. He's FGC5939+, surname Murphy . Most distant documented patrilineal ancestor is Ignatius Murphy from Feakle, County Clare. Oral family history has it that the Murphys moved to Clare from somewhere in Galway. He's CAJ43 on ysearch, kit number 145108 at ftdna.

Small world! We spent the night of the 7th of July in the Dublin airport waiting for our early morning flight back to Virginia, and they kept playing the 9 o'clock news over and over and over. Anyway, one of the news items was about a woman born in Feakle who had just died in Syracuse, New York at age 113. Kathleen Rollins Snavely (http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0707/713319-oldest-irish-born-woman/) was her name.

[drouhin]

Thanks, Paul! Will do.
Small world indeed, rms2. :) Thanks for the link. Very interesting story about the long-lived lady, including some footage of Feakle on the news report. I've never seen the place before!

[GogMagog]

Biddy Early "the witch" was from Feakle.

[Dubhthach]

Thanks, Paul! Will do.
Small world indeed, rms2. :) Thanks for the link. Very interesting story about the long-lived lady, including some footage of Feakle on the news report. I've never seen the place before!

Within the Ireland project your widest Genetic Distance at 67 markers with someone who is FGC5939 is 14!. the widest with A260+/FGC5939- is 14 as well. It's relatively old subclade going on those numbers. Like all M222+ men you have a huge number of matches at 67 markers, most of which are "false positives" as I can see several who belong to other "subclades" that are parallel to A259/A260 etc. (in which case common ancestor is sometime during the Iron age!)

Generally I suggest that given opportunity (ftdna sale etc.) that M222 men should go to 111 STR's as it does tend to narrow down the set of matches.

[Dubhthach]

Just a note I see that there is now an Flaherty who is A259+ confirmed (no result for A260). He joins a McHugh who is A260+ confirmed via BigY testing. What's interesting about that is historically there was a McHugh (Mac Aodha) family linked to the O'Flaherty's (Ó Flatharta -- Ó Flaithbhertaigh = old spelling) as part of Uí Briúin Seola.

We thus have evidence for surnames linked to Uí Briúin Aí, Uí Briúin Bréifne and now tenatively to Uí Briúin Seola been A259+ (with majority been A260+).

[alan]

I took a trip to Rathcroghan/Cruachan a couple of days ago. Its a total shambles with no signs or info boards to speak of, limited access. There is a visitors centre but it is a mile away. They do guided tours but twice have botched up meaning I have driven for hours for no tour. Their guide map pamphlet is totally useless and really misleading. It could be very cool if done properly. Hopefully its a work in progress because right now really poor compared to other major sites like Newgrange, Tara, Navan Fort etc.

[Dubhthach]

I took a trip to Rathcroghan/Cruachan a couple of days ago. Its a total shambles with no signs or info boards to speak of, limited access. There is a visitors centre but it is a mile away. They do guided tours but twice have botched up meaning I have driven for hours for no tour. Their guide map pamphlet is totally useless and really misleading. It could be very cool if done properly. Hopefully its a work in progress because right now really poor compared to other major sites like Newgrange, Tara, Navan Fort etc.

Indeed, well there's some talk about having a UNESCO world heritage site designation for a number of "Ancient Capitals", the main thing for Cruchan Aí would be the re-routing of the N5 road. There's already plans to do that shifting it several km's to north. The geophyiz of site is actually quite interesting, there's been no archaelogy as far as I know. Given the Irish goverenment's lack of interest in culture (apart from where it can be used to extract money from tourists) I doubt anything will change in next decade:

Main mound shows signs of internal structure, as well as processional way akin to see at Dún Ailinne (Leinster) and Emhain Mhaca.
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/cruachan-ai.png

The number of mounments in area is impressive:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/cruachan.png

[Jessie]

I've looked at my brother's Ydna Haplotype Tree at FTDNA. He is S588 and a test for S603 came back negative. I looked at the tree a few days ago and S590 was orange signifying test in progress. I've looked again today and FGC4113 is orange and also S590 with S595 added in orange also. Has anyone else noticed something similar on their trees?

As far as I know these are under S603 so it seems a bit odd.

[Jessie]

I'll add an image to make it more clear.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2saleer.png

[Dubhthach]

Just a note I see that there is now an Flaherty who is A259+ confirmed (no result for A260). He joins a McHugh who is A260+ confirmed via BigY testing. What's interesting about that is historically there was a McHugh (Mac Aodha) family linked to the O'Flaherty's (Ó Flatharta -- Ó Flaithbhertaigh = old spelling) as part of Uí Briúin Seola.

We thus have evidence for surnames linked to Uí Briúin Aí, Uí Briúin Bréifne and now tenatively to Uí Briúin Seola been A259+ (with majority been A260+).

As a note the Flaherty tester has come back A260+

-Paul

[count arundell]

11 Mar 2005 - John McEwan estimates R1bstr19 (M222) TMRCA at 3362 which is ~1350 B.C.
(incidently about the time Moses was supposedly freeing Israelites -J.L.) and theorizes it may have rapidly expanded from a small group about that time. (The levite and cohanim????)Sorry about capitals,can't see well.

William ONeil R1b1 Netherlands Ashkenazi-Levite 1(earlier)(PRIESTLY MARKER,J ALSO,TEMPLE OF SOLOMON--ISRAEL)***11 COHEN MARKERsSSEEN IN MY FAMILY-HIGH PRIESTS.
emailFTDNA Tip note Y-DNA67 HVR2 ((((incidently about the time Moses was supposedly freeing Israelites))))*************
R1b1a2a1a1b4b H 1 (PRINCES ULSTER/KINGS IRELAND)---R-M222shorthand--KING MARKER.--R1b1b2a1a3 Northern Ireland Ulster 1 **
O'NEILL--KINGS IRELAND/PRINCES ULSTER.

Name ----1--Paternal William Amuligane, b.c.1500, Dempsterton, Dumfries
E-mail


Y-DNA111 R1b1a2a1a1b4b 1

Haplogroups
Y-DNA R1b1a2a1a1b4b Shorthand R-M222
mtDNA N/A

[count arundell]

I have 2 know m-222 matches and maybe 10 kennedy ones.

[count arundell]

Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty, AD (28 February 1898 – 30 October 1963) was an Irish Roman Catholic priest and senior official of the Roman Curia, and significant figure in Catholic resistance to Nazism. During World War II, he was responsible for saving 6,500 Allied soldiers and Jews. His ability to evade the traps set by the German Gestapo and Sicherheitsdienst, earned O'Flaherty the nickname "The Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican". He was the first Irishman named Notary of the Holy Office.

my dna match:

emailFTDNA Tip note Y-DNA37 FMS
R-M269 H27-T16093C 1 --H known haplotype of prince william

[Gray Fox]

11 Mar 2005 - John McEwan estimates R1bstr19 (M222) TMRCA at 3362 which is ~1350 B.C.
(incidently about the time Moses was supposedly freeing Israelites -J.L.) and theorizes it may have rapidly expanded from a small group about that time. (The levite and cohanim????)Sorry about capitals,can't see well.

William ONeil R1b1 Netherlands Ashkenazi-Levite 1(earlier)(PRIESTLY MARKER,J ALSO,TEMPLE OF SOLOMON--ISRAEL)***11 COHEN MARKERsSSEEN IN MY FAMILY-HIGH PRIESTS.
emailFTDNA Tip note Y-DNA67 HVR2 ((((incidently about the time Moses was supposedly freeing Israelites))))*************
R1b1a2a1a1b4b H 1 (PRINCES ULSTER/KINGS IRELAND)---R-M222shorthand--KING MARKER.--R1b1b2a1a3 Northern Ireland Ulster 1 **
O'NEILL--KINGS IRELAND/PRINCES ULSTER.

Name ----1--Paternal William Amuligane, b.c.1500, Dempsterton, Dumfries
E-mail


Y-DNA111 R1b1a2a1a1b4b 1

Haplogroups
Y-DNA R1b1a2a1a1b4b Shorthand R-M222
mtDNA N/A

{Moderator}

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[oneillabu]

[Deleted by moderator]



3.11 Invectives and posts devoid of substance (e.g. threads or replies consisting solely of inflammatory content or triviality) will be considered junk postings and deleted. Anthrogenica encourages its members to engage in debate with each other, but discussions that degenerate into little more than flaming and inanity will be considered spam (see Rule 3.9).

[Dubhthach]

I'll add an image to make it more clear.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2saleer.png


I'd suggest asking FTDNA about this through a support request. From what I can see the "Orange" snp's weren't included in original M222 bundle:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ftdna-m222.png

One of them FGC4113 was found shared between two men through BigY/NGS testing:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=576&star=false

[Dubhthach]

So first round of "M222 bundle Mark 2" have come in. I see FTDNA have updated their tree. What's weird is they've put A259 as subclade of FGC5939 under A260!!!!

Even though we have at least 2 men who are A259+/A260- (one from sanger testing of both markers, second from sanger test of A259 + original M222 bundle for A260- result) and one man who is A259+/FGC5939- (sanger testing)

Does anyone know who we contact in FTDNA with regards to fixing their tree here?

[DR30Dave]

Hello
I recently had some testing with FTDNA. I came up as R-S668. Now I am adopted and just found my Bio Parents, father is a Gallagher and mother was a Donnelly. What else can I do with the data I have received from my testing? I am new at all this and much of what I have read is sort of over my head. Any help is appreciated. Is there groups I should join etc....

-David

[dp]

If you haven't already joined:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-1c-7/about/background
in the already tested block type in your kit id & password.
dp :-)

Hello
I recently had some testing with FTDNA. I came up as R-S668. Now I am adopted and just found my Bio Parents, father is a Gallagher and mother was a Donnelly. What else can I do with the data I have received from my testing? I am new at all this and much of what I have read is sort of over my head. Any help is appreciated. Is there groups I should join etc....

-David

[dp]

If you haven't already joined:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-1c-7/about/background
in the already tested block type in your kit id & password.
Also, check out: http://www.ytree.net/ if you have had the Big-Y test @williamson would be interested in your results.
dp :-)

Hello
I recently had some testing with FTDNA. I came up as R-S668. Now I am adopted and just found my Bio Parents, father is a Gallagher and mother was a Donnelly. What else can I do with the data I have received from my testing? I am new at all this and much of what I have read is sort of over my head. Any help is appreciated. Is there groups I should join etc....

-David

[Dubhthach]

Hello
I recently had some testing with FTDNA. I came up as R-S668. Now I am adopted and just found my Bio Parents, father is a Gallagher and mother was a Donnelly. What else can I do with the data I have received from my testing? I am new at all this and much of what I have read is sort of over my head. Any help is appreciated. Is there groups I should join etc....

-David

With a surname of Gallagher the S668 result actually makes a lot of sense, S668 is part of wider DF85 which has been tentatively linked to the Cenél Conaill of Donegal (a kindred of the Northern Uí Néill). Gallagher is a Cenél Conaill surname. Internesting enough with maternal name of Donnelly, it's quite possible that your maternal Grandfather was also M222+, though as Donnelly is a Cenél nEogain surname it's possible that your maternal Grandfather would be S588+ (and thus DF85-)

Either way both are surnames from the North-west of Ireland.

Have you done both STR and SNP testing? Please feel free to join the Ireland yDNA project if you haven't already.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ireland-heritage/about

-Paul

[DR30Dave]

Thank you all so far. Darn you need ten posts for sending PM's

MacUalraig if you are lurking go ahead and use my info. If you need more please ask.

[DR30Dave]

So I ended up ordering the BigY today because I had done the 111 and all the snp packs recommended. I really don't know what to expect but my curiosity gets the best of me.
soon I will meet up with my Gallagher father and I will try to extract any history I can from him....

[Dubhthach]

So I ended up ordering the BigY today because I had done the 111 and all the snp packs recommended. I really don't know what to expect but my curiosity gets the best of me.
soon I will meet up with my Gallagher father and I will try to extract any history I can from him....

Well that should be interesting, especially given how many DF85 men have done BigY, looking at Alex's tree we know that at least 67 of them have shared results, of these 47 men belong to S668.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=959&star=false

From a historical perspective it's also very interesting to have a Gallagher do BigY (don't think any have so far). Within the genealogical tradition the time of spilt between Gallagher family and near relatives such as O'Donnell's, Boyle's, O'Doherty etc. is put in the 6th century AD!

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/cenel-conaill.png

[johndrakestewart]

FTDNA m222 v2 SNP Panel Results received.

New Terminal SNP is BY3343 under DF97.

Samuel Stuart c 1714 Ireland? D 1824 S.Carolina is my brick wall.

Thanks,

john drake stewart

[email protected]

FTDNA Kit# N118485 Fathers Kit # 14385 (67 STR)

[dp]

FTDNA m222 v2 SNP Panel Results received.

New Terminal SNP is BY3343 under DF97.

Samuel Stuart c 1714 Ireland? D 1824 S.Carolina is my brick wall.

Thanks,

john drake stewart

[email protected]

FTDNA Kit# N118485 Fathers Kit # 14385 (67 STR)
Welcome to Anthrogenica :-)
-dp
PS: nice catch.

[Dubhthach]

We now have a second man who is A259+ and A260- who has done BigY see:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=567&star=false

He shares four high quality SNP's with Connelly namely:
6779981-G-C
8340636-G-T
8883830-C-G
21843933-C-T

I'm in process of seeing if I can get one of the A259+/A260- McManus to do BigY, these men show close matches with several O'Connor's (at least one tested A259+) and have matches at 67 STR's with the O'Conor Don lineage (tester close male relative of current O'Conor Don). As McManus is a collateral branch of the O'Connor's of Connacht it will be interesting to see:

(a) how many of the 4 SNP's above they might share
(b) if it helps narrow down wider A259* O'Connor/McManus lineage to period more recent than A259 (YFULL: formed 1900 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybp)

[Dubhthach]

Ok update on above, we have a 111-STR tested McManus who is previous tested A259+ and A260- via SNP testing who has BigY on order. He has a GD of 13 at 111 markers from Connelly (9 at 67 markers). This could potentially help either show that these 5 SNP's are quite old or perhaps might spilt off one or two. Either way it adds an additional datapoint to the A259+/A260- section of the tree.

This particular McManus has a GD of 4 at 67 markers from the O'Conor Don lineage.

[Jessie]

Ok update on above, we have a 111-STR tested McManus who is previous tested A259+ and A260- via SNP testing who has BigY on order. He has a GD of 13 at 111 markers from Connelly (9 at 67 markers). This could potentially help either show that these 5 SNP's are quite old or perhaps might spilt off one or two. Either way it adds an additional datapoint to the A259+/A260- section of the tree.

This particular McManus has a GD of 4 at 67 markers from the O'Conor Don lineage.

Do you know if they are from Roscommon? The reason why I'm wondering is my Great Grandmother was a McManus from Roscommon. They could be family. :)

[Dubhthach]

Do you know if they are from Roscommon? The reason why I'm wondering is my Great Grandmother was a McManus from Roscommon. They could be family. :)

This particular McManus is from the US going back to the mid 18th century, however he has close match (whose English) who has tree back to Roscommon in mid 19th century. There are traditionally regarded as two McManus families, the Connacht (eg. Roscommon) and Fermanagh ones, we can clearly see the difference between these two with testing. With two major clusters poping out one been M222 (and so far A259+/A260-) and other been L513+ and matching Airgialla II signature (with Maguire matches). That make sense given the history of these two families. The Fermanagh McManus family claiming descent from Maghnus Mag Uidhre son of Donn Carrach Mag Uidhre (died. 1302) the first Maguire "king" of Fermangh.

In case of Connacht family the Genealogical tradition puts them as descendants of Maghnus Ua Conchobhair (d. 1181) son of Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair (d. 1156) High-King of Ireland. The apparant close match to O'Conor Don lineage is interesting in this regard as the O'Conor Don line descendes from Maghnus's brother Cathal Crobdearg Ua Conchobair (1152-1224) who was a King of Connacht.

Obviously there are also several smaller groups ⁊ single results with name, which shouldn't be too surprising.

[Dubhthach]

I see the new A259+/A260- BigY tester has joined the Ireland project. At 67 markers he has a Genetic Distance of 13 from other A259+/A260- BigY-er. He has a genetic distance of 10 from the McManus A259+/A260- who has BigY on order.

His closest match in the project is a GD of 8 with a man bearing the surname "Connor" (already confirmed as A259+/A260- via bundle) who currently has 111 STR upgrade on order.

[Jessie]

This particular McManus is from the US going back to the mid 18th century, however he has close match (whose English) who has tree back to Roscommon in mid 19th century. There are traditionally regarded as two McManus families, the Connacht (eg. Roscommon) and Fermanagh ones, we can clearly see the difference between these two with testing. With two major clusters poping out one been M222 (and so far A259+/A260-) and other been L513+ and matching Airgialla II signature (with Maguire matches). That make sense given the history of these two families. The Fermanagh McManus family claiming descent from Maghnus Mag Uidhre son of Donn Carrach Mag Uidhre (died. 1302) the first Maguire "king" of Fermangh.

In case of Connacht family the Genealogical tradition puts them as descendants of Maghnus Ua Conchobhair (d. 1181) son of Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair (d. 1156) High-King of Ireland. The apparant close match to O'Conor Don lineage is interesting in this regard as the O'Conor Don line descendes from Maghnus's brother Cathal Crobdearg Ua Conchobair (1152-1224) who was a King of Connacht.

Obviously there are also several smaller groups ⁊ single results with name, which shouldn't be too surprising.

Thank you for this bit of history. My Great Grandmother was a McManus from Roscommon. This is from my father's maternal side. It is interesting that they might also be M222 which is what my paternal line is and they are also from Roscommon.

[Dubhthach]

Thank you for this bit of history. My Great Grandmother was a McManus from Roscommon. This is from my father's maternal side. It is interesting that they might also be M222 which is what my paternal line is and they are also from Roscommon.

It's a good guess, technically speaking in genealogical sense there were two McManus families one concentrated in Roscommon (branch of O'Connor's) and another in Fermanagh (branch of Maguires). In likes of McManus FTDNA project these two groups stand out as large clusters, but there are obviously McManus men with different Y-DNA haplogroups (believe there are several I2 etc.)

[Dubhthach]

So McManus BigY results came in. Alex still has his results as been provisional at the moment. He shares at the same block of 4 snp's as found in Connelly and Milliken kits. I believe he might also share at least one SNP with Connelly that Milliken doesn't have. His results have been submitted to YFull.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=567&star=false

https://yfull.com/tree/R-A259/

On a related note three additional McManus kits have ordered BigY. These all have Genetic Distance of 5-6 from current McManus BigY. These three appear to share a MDKA in mid 18th century in what is now SE USA. Hopefully this will result in formation of a block of SNP's which are shared with the initial McManus BigY tester. The next step would be to get a A259+/A260- O'Connor to do BigY I imagine.

[marosjor]

So McManus BigY results came in. Alex still has his results as been provisional at the moment. He shares at the same block of 4 snp's as found in Connelly and Milliken kits. I believe he might also share at least one SNP with Connelly that Milliken doesn't have. His results have been submitted to YFull.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=567&star=false

https://yfull.com/tree/R-A259/

On a related note three additional McManus kits have ordered BigY. These all have Genetic Distance of 5-6 from current McManus BigY. These three appear to share a MDKA in mid 18th century in what is now SE USA. Hopefully this will result in formation of a block of SNP's which are shared with the initial McManus BigY tester. The next step would be to get a A259+/A260- O'Connor to do BigY I imagine.

Are the McManus Big Y results as you hoped/expected?

[Dubhthach]

Are the McManus Big Y results as you hoped/expected?

Not hugely surprising, the GD to Connelly/Johnson wasn't massive, plus so far nearly all of A259 falls under A260. We only have a handful of A259+/A260- and so far they all seem to share at least 4 SNP's found in BigY namely:

6779981-G-C
8340636-G-T
8883830-C-G
21843933-C-T

Basically unless we find another A259+/A260- who is widely divergent when it comes to comparing STR's we might not see a A259*, though it is of course possible that someone comes along who breaks the above phylogenetic block (eg. is only positive for 1 or 2 of them)

The extra McManus kits should at least create a new block that could represent that lineage from time it became a distinct surname (O'Connor McManus -> McManus in the 14th century) up to point of divergence of each of individual lines of descent.

McManus kit has been submitted to YFULL, as Connelly is already up there hopefully we should see a TMRCA estimate for shared block between those two kits.

[Dubhthach]

The first of the 3 new McManus BigY results have posted. Unsurpringly they show shared SNP's with existing McManus kit. Alex has updated his tree as below:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/a259-a260neg.png

We are now seeing some sub-structure within the A259+/A260- men who've done BigY. The initial McManus kit is undergoing analysis by YFull at the moment (to compare against the Connelly one), ideally all 4 kits would be submitted which would give us some idea on TMRCA etc.

[Dubhthach]

Just an update on this, our third member of wider McManus grouping has gotten BigY results. We now see a new sub-cluster arise. The two men in this have a probable MDKA in SE US during the late 18th century. There are at least two more expected BigY results from men who are in their genealogical group (SE McManus)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/a259-star.png
15173

Meanwhile as ye may know YFULL have updated their tree. McManus (H1135) had uploaded his results, joining the Connelly/Johnson (312908) kit. The YFULL prediction for shared cluster, using two samples is:

R-Y31294 Y31295 * Y31294 * Y32125+3 SNPs formed 1600 ybp, TMRCA 1000 ybp

This is only on two results, it's planned hopefully to get the other three BigY results into YFULL as well as future ones.

[fridurich]

Very interesting. Nice on getting a tmrca of about 1,000 years ago. Looks like good progress.


Just an update on this, our third member of wider McManus grouping has gotten BigY results. We now see a new sub-cluster arise. The two men in this have a probable MDKA in SE US during the late 18th century. There are at least two more expected BigY results from men who are in their genealogical group (SE McManus)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/a259-star.png
15173

Meanwhile as ye may know YFULL have updated their tree. McManus (H1135) had uploaded his results, joining the Connelly/Johnson (312908) kit. The YFULL prediction for shared cluster, using two samples is:

R-Y31294 Y31295 * Y31294 * Y32125+3 SNPs formed 1600 ybp, TMRCA 1000 ybp

This is only on two results, it's planned hopefully to get the other three BigY results into YFULL as well as future ones.

[Al Scott]

Hello Everyone i am new here i Have Tested at FTDNA Y111,MTFull,Family Finder Last Summer, i just got my Big Y Results My Haplogroup is R-S673 My FamilyTreeDna Kit#510220 William Balliol le Scot born 1251 Barnard Castle Started my long Line of Scott's his Ancestors came from Bailleul France during the Norman Conquest Other ancestral Origins are>Scotland>Kent England>Glemsford,Suffolk England>
Richard Scott born 1607-Boston,USA ca1631-3,He Married Katherine Marbury who had King Edward l (Longshanks) as an ancestor>R.I USA> Coastal Towns in Maine, New Brunswick, Canada 1800's My Father Born in Charlotte County New Brunswick came to Ontario in the 50's. My Scottish YDNA Matches all Fit before William Baliol le Scot, My few Surname Matches are at a Genetic Distance of 1 and would fit The Glemsford Scott's in my Line, I do have Wallace YDNA and other surname matches that fit the History such as Bailey William Wallace had a daughter that Married a William Baillie ll of Hoprig, Grandson of an Alexander Baliol.
So my Ancestry basically goes through the Scottish Wars of Independance (Brave Heart Movie)
I emailed my Big Y Results to the BigY Tree yesterday.

[Dubhthach]

Here's updated BigY tree for A259+/A260- men, we have a new BigY result which spilts the three SNP's that so far were only seen in McManus men:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/a259-june.png

Using the BigY sale currently going and some sponsorship it's been arranged to get a A259+/A260- Connor kit tested for BigY. This should be interesting as he has a GD of 4 at 67 markers from the O'Conor Don lineage kit.

[Jessie]

My brother's Living DNA results have just come in and according to them he is DF109. He is S588 on FTDNA. Can someone tell me something about DF109?

Thanks

[MacUalraig]

My brother's Living DNA results have just come in and according to them he is DF109. He is S588 on FTDNA. Can someone tell me something about DF109?

Thanks
It's upstream of S588. Essentially the main branch of M222 before we branch into S588/DF85/A223 etc. Originally it was called S660 by Dr. Wilson who discovered it (hence I use the S660 name on my chart).

[Robert McBride]

It's upstream of S588. Essentially the main branch of M222 before we branch into S588/DF85/A223 etc. Originally it was called S660 by Dr. Wilson who discovered it (hence I use the S660 name on my chart).

Hi Jessie,
Df104, df106 and df109 should be above S588 and df85. Living DNA's phylogenetic tree below M222 is a mess!

[Dubhthach]

Here's the DF105 and subclade information extracted from Dr. Iain McDonald new dating, I bolded A259, S588 and DF85 which are the three largest DF105 subclades in the Ireland project (via M222 bundle testing)

Data taken from here: http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html

I formatted it for the forum to try and reconstruct as accurately the tree structure.


DF105 214 AD (90 BC — 466 AD)

FGC46310 385 AD (25 AD — 798 AD)

FGC32795 1430 AD (833 AD — 1791 AD)

ZS8379 594 AD (135 AD — 1101 AD)

7509599 684 AD (230 AD — 1138 AD)

A10526 767 AD (298 AD — 1214 AD)

A11215 1543 AD (1116 AD — 1812 AD)

BY198 792 AD (226 AD — 1309 AD)

FGC40507 1166 AD (659 AD — 1546 AD)

6855037 1326 AD (893 AD — 1650 AD)

A1206 577 AD (136 AD — 1043 AD)

FGC23739 939 AD (431 AD — 1388 AD)

BY11687 1642 AD (1222 AD — 1878 AD)

Z18599 431 AD (75 AD — 794 AD)

A224 1077 AD (573 AD — 1480 AD)

FGC32899 1518 AD (1095 AD — 1797 AD)
A822 767 AD (359 AD — 1135 AD)

BY586 1504 AD (1025 AD — 1813 AD)
A984 993 AD (572 AD — 1373 AD)

A11242 1707 AD (1305 AD — 1914 AD)
A981 1345 AD (919 AD — 1680 AD)

FGC4133 599 AD (110 AD — 1061 AD)

A10022 1054 AD (553 AD — 1449 AD)

A11228 1578 AD (1161 AD — 1838 AD)
FGC4134 898 AD (459 AD — 1242 AD)

FGC4125 1160 AD (724 AD — 1536 AD)
A2303 1062 AD (648 AD — 1431 AD)

18617114 1427 AD (1018 AD — 1736 AD)
24481701 1142 AD (751 AD — 1478 AD)

BY11715 1450 AD (1053 AD — 1758 AD)
A744 1559 AD (1183 AD — 1810 AD)

BY11713 1684 AD (1400 AD — 1869 AD)

A259 352 AD (25 AD — 669 AD)

BY18120 896 AD (405 AD — 1330 AD)

BY18115 1050 AD (606 AD — 1420 AD)

BY18179 1234 AD (815 AD — 1579 AD)

A260 483 AD (157 AD — 784 AD)

A5902 851 AD (429 AD — 1258 AD)
BY11723 501 AD (174 AD — 825 AD)

A883 702 AD (331 AD — 1074 AD)

Z38723 817 AD (435 AD — 1195 AD)
A10525 845 AD (426 AD — 1240 AD)

FGC65250 1162 AD (704 AD — 1560 AD)
FGC5939 777 AD (385 AD — 1155 AD)

A6925 1034 AD (599 AD — 1442 AD)
A2216 1245 AD (752 AD — 1655 AD)

S588 432 AD (123 AD — 712 AD)

FGC4113 937 AD (412 AD — 1460 AD)
A9884 1134 AD (608 AD — 1568 AD)
FGC19831 902 AD (339 AD — 1518 AD)
FGC19860 1405 AD (825 AD — 1780 AD)
Z25507 1582 AD (1083 AD — 1862 AD)
S590 688 AD (292 AD — 1131 AD)

S595 1526 AD (1051 AD — 1822 AD)
A5386 1166 AD (690 AD — 1539 AD)

17949897 1564 AD (1155 AD — 1830 AD)
A9883 1520 AD (1097 AD — 1810 AD)
FGC57785 501 AD (177 AD — 840 AD)

A8591 855 AD (402 AD — 1332 AD)
FGC23592 660 AD (297 AD — 1041 AD)

FGC23595 1123 AD (696 AD — 1484 AD)

A12545 1722 AD (1349 AD — 1917 AD)
FGC17916 1756 AD (1420 AD — 1925 AD)
S7814 491 AD (178 AD — 792 AD)

A11307 871 AD (413 AD — 1360 AD)
A694 678 AD (317 AD — 1055 AD)

PF2028 1162 AD (653 AD — 1612 AD)
BY202 742 AD (379 AD — 1092 AD)

BY4142 965 AD (557 AD — 1366 AD)
BY199 977 AD (585 AD — 1340 AD)

13997501 1379 AD (1000 AD — 1669 AD)

7034127 1760 AD (1451 AD — 1925 AD)

DF85 296 AD (7 BC — 571 AD)

14127843 861 AD (334 AD — 1373 AD)
FGC12183 1784 AD (1370 AD — 1946 AD)
FGC35551 1225 AD (631 AD — 1612 AD)

FGC35553 1559 AD (1217 AD — 1785 AD)
A2202 958 AD (505 AD — 1352 AD)

A2203 1528 AD (1151 AD — 1775 AD)

A2208 1710 AD (1434 AD — 1883 AD)
S673 374 AD (73 AD — 654 AD)

A10680 875 AD (345 AD — 1423 AD)
7867217 1005 AD (457 AD — 1498 AD)
FGC32825 950 AD (500 AD — 1361 AD)
DF97 526 AD (220 AD — 805 AD)

FGC39685 1621 AD (1225 AD — 1856 AD)
Z29319 668 AD (327 AD — 1025 AD)
FGC49797 1094 AD (638 AD — 1484 AD)

22470367 1262 AD (832 AD — 1615 AD)
FGC19846 628 AD (301 AD — 958 AD)

FGC19840 1032 AD (635 AD — 1387 AD)

FGC19845 1271 AD (867 AD — 1615 AD)
FGC8840 851 AD (443 AD — 1246 AD)

FGC49693 1084 AD (684 AD — 1426 AD)

FGC49692 1340 AD (974 AD — 1629 AD)

FGC51957 1824 AD (1530 AD — 1951 AD)
BY470 1319 AD (1021 AD — 1549 AD)

FGC52372 1545 AD (1247 AD — 1776 AD)

FGC52373 1698 AD (1434 AD — 1876 AD)
P37 1710 AD (1431 AD — 1885 AD)

[similligan]

It's going to be interesting as the paper trails start meeting the SNPs. For example, looking under FGC4133 and going down to BY11713, we have two men who descend from different sons of a man who was born about 1655. So instead of a range of 1400AD to 1869, the range would possibly still be the early date of 1400AD. but to no later than 1655. That in turn would change the range for A744 which precedes BY11713.

[Dubhthach]

It's going to be interesting as the paper trails start meeting the SNPs. For example, looking under FGC4133 and going down to BY11713, we have two men who descend from different sons of a man who was born about 1655. So instead of a range of 1400AD to 1869, the range would possibly still be the early date of 1400AD. but to no later than 1655. That in turn would change the range for A744 which precedes BY11713.

That's an excellent point, we actually see this with the Stewarts under DF41, specifically under L746 and S781 (Royal line).


L746 1333 AD (1058 AD — 1538 AD)

Z17581 1620 AD (1305 AD — 1862 AD)
Y14197 1616 AD (1337 AD — 1823 AD)
S781 1604 AD (1379 AD — 1773 AD)

A889 1694 AD (1471 AD — 1874 AD)

From testing the various Stewart lineages it's probable that S781 arose in Sir John Stewart of Bonkyll who died in 1298. What seems to be perhaps happening here is that the sampleset of S781 men who have done BigY isn't big enough and is pulling the estimate forward in time. 1604 is too late anyways.

[Gallagher]

Would a 23andMe test yield results relevant to this research? I've sent in a sample and awaiting results.

It may be a moot point as I think my paternal g-g-g-Grandfather already appears in the database.familytreedna Charles Gallagher, R-S668

The age seems to add up to the records I've found in the 1901 census

Although I'm not sure how common the name would've been in 1825 +/-1year, could be a different person.

[Dubhthach]

Would a 23andMe test yield results relevant to this research? I've sent in a sample and awaiting results.

It may be a moot point as I think my paternal g-g-g-Grandfather already appears in the database.familytreedna Charles Gallagher, R-S668

The age seems to add up to the records I've found in the 1901 census

Although I'm not sure how common the name would've been in 1825 +/-1year, could be a different person.

Well 23andme do test for M222, I believe they might have added extra SNP's to list of Y-DNA in their latest iteration but I'm not sure what if any subclades of M222 they might have added.

[MacUalraig]

Would a 23andMe test yield results relevant to this research? I've sent in a sample and awaiting results.

It may be a moot point as I think my paternal g-g-g-Grandfather already appears in the database.familytreedna Charles Gallagher, R-S668

The age seems to add up to the records I've found in the 1901 census

Although I'm not sure how common the name would've been in 1825 +/-1year, could be a different person.

We will be interested to see the raw Y SNP results when you have them. The total number of new SNPs in v5 is modest but you might get lucky.

[Tommy Quinn]

Hi Everyone,
My father is recently deceased but before he died he did Y111 and the snp pack and his terminal snp is A725. Can anyone tell me about this line etc. His name was Quinn from Donegal. I have been doing a bit of research here on A725 and it doesn't seem to be very prolific and not much info on it yet.

[MacUalraig]

Hi Everyone,
My father is recently deceased but before he died he did Y111 and the snp pack and his terminal snp is A725. Can anyone tell me about this line etc. His name was Quinn from Donegal. I have been doing a bit of research here on A725 and it doesn't seem to be very prolific and not much info on it yet.

This is covered by the FGC4077 project as its the biggest sub-branch thereof. I will pm you details including an external email.

[Tommy Quinn]

Thanks :-)

[Eochaidh]

Hi Everyone,
My father is recently deceased but before he died he did Y111 and the snp pack and his terminal snp is A725. Can anyone tell me about this line etc. His name was Quinn from Donegal. I have been doing a bit of research here on A725 and it doesn't seem to be very prolific and not much info on it yet.
What part of Donegal was he from Tommy?

[Tommy Quinn]

Mountcharles/Donegal Town the family has records back to early 1800's but originally we think that the family came from around the Donegal/Tyrone border in the Lagan valley (Raphoe on the Donegal side and Strabane on the Tyrone side but it is mostly speculation and no facts except some autosumnal links with Quinns in the convoy area of Donegal and the general family view that we came from Tyrone.

[Dubhthach]

A725 by itself is probably quite old, here's the dates on Dr. Iain McDonald's site:

FGC4087 127 AD (348 BC — 532 AD)

FGC12948 583 AD (23 AD — 1115 AD)
A725 329 AD (116 BC — 736 AD)

A2299 1029 AD (481 AD — 1477 AD)
FGC811 1543 AD (1056 AD — 1830 AD)
A11360 1072 AD (586 AD — 1442 AD)

2889849 1381 AD (944 AD — 1711 AD)

So it might have arisen in the 4th century (95% probability within range of 116BC to 736AD), that's a fairly old branch that's for sure.

Currently at least 25 A725+ men who have done BigY have shared their results with Alex Williamson, you can see some of the structure here:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=563&star=false

[MacUalraig]

A725 by itself is probably quite old, here's the dates on Dr. Iain McDonald's site:

FGC4087 127 AD (348 BC — 532 AD)

FGC12948 583 AD (23 AD — 1115 AD)
A725 329 AD (116 BC — 736 AD)

A2299 1029 AD (481 AD — 1477 AD)
FGC811 1543 AD (1056 AD — 1830 AD)
A11360 1072 AD (586 AD — 1442 AD)

2889849 1381 AD (944 AD — 1711 AD)

So it might have arisen in the 4th century (95% probability within range of 116BC to 736AD), that's a fairly old branch that's for sure.

Currently at least 25 A725+ men who have done BigY have shared their results with Alex Williamson, you can see some of the structure here:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=563&star=false

Or rather, who have done Y Elite or Big Y.

[Dubhthach]

Or rather, who have done Y Elite or Big Y.

Pedant :P personally I did the test with FGC before they added the 'Elite' to it ;) but yeah I probably should have said NGS (Next Generation Sequencing)

[Gallagher]

I got my 23andMe results and I am indeed an R-M222 person.

I can't seem to find more information past that, although there is a mountain of raw data included that I can't possibly make sense of.

[RGM]

I got my 23andMe results and I am indeed an R-M222 person.

I can't seem to find more information past that, although there is a mountain of raw data included that I can't possibly make sense of.

You won't learn anything more from your 23andMe results. That's as far as they go in terms of Y-DNA.

[Dubhthach]

I'm assuming your surname is Gallagher, in which case a M222+ result isn't really surprising


Ó GALLCHOBHAIR—I—O Galleghure, O'Gallagher, Gallagher, Gallaher, Gallogher, Gollagher, &c.; 'descendant of Gallchobhar' (foreign help); the name of a numerous and once powerful family in Tirconnell, who derive their descent from Maolchobha, King of Ireland in the 7th century. As marshalls of O'Donnell's forces, the O'Gallaghers took a prominent part in all the military movements of Cinel Conaill during the 14th and subsequent centuries. Many of them were distinguished as Bishops of Raphoe and Derry. The name was sometimes shortened to Ó Gallchú, which see.

[Gallagher]

You won't learn anything more from your 23andMe results. That's as far as they go in terms of Y-DNA.

Disappointing.


I'm assuming your surname is Gallagher, in which case a M222+ result isn't really surprising

Yeah I expected it somewhat.

[Dubhthach]

So we got a A10525+ result for a man bearing the surname Flaherty. A10525 is a branch of wider A260 (itself part of A259). What's interesting is this makes it the second Flaherty who is A260+ confirmed, the first one is awaiting a result for A10525.

There's a possibility here we are coming close to a SNP that might mark a segment of the Uí Briúin Seola which the O'Flaherty's were the leading lineage of during the middle ages.

[fridurich]

So we got a A10525+ result for a man bearing the surname Flaherty. A10525 is a branch of wider A260 (itself part of A259). What's interesting is this makes it the second Flaherty who is A260+ confirmed, the first one is awaiting a result for A10525.

There's a possibility here we are coming close to a SNP that might mark a segment of the Uí Briúin Seola which the O'Flaherty's were the leading lineage of during the middle ages.

That would be awesome.

[Robert McBride]

Devlin and myself have a new FGC30690 Big Y match. I can infer from the “snps not matching” column that this new match must share the snps A10530, A10531 and A10534 with Devlin forming a new branch under S588>FGC30690>FGC30697.

[Jessie]

I've just got my brother's BigY results and he is still S588. I've uploaded his VCF file to Y DNA Data Warehouse. Anything else I should do?

http://i67.tinypic.com/28bgxp5.png

[Robert McBride]

I now have a second Devlin Big Y match who like the first is S588>Fgc30690>FGC30697>A10530.
They have a gd of 10 at 111 strs.