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Finn
01-03-2020, 07:48 PM
When we are talking about Dinarization it has the following treats: brachycephaly+flat occiput (steephead).

The old anthropologist called it Dinarization of Dinarid phenotype because it occurred mostly there and may be they also thought it had some kind of connection with Dinaric people.

IMO it has no direct connection to the Dinaric population (although it certainly occurred there!) it occurs anywhere, regarding Europe from England to Poland and the Balkan.

It has been a speciale 'trademark' or 'stigma' of the Bell Beakers. Some even stated that the dominant phenotype of the Bell Beaker was Dinarid. I translate it as the Bell Beakers have undergone a process of Dinarization. But is has occurred in more times and places.

But what is the key to it? I corresponded with member Moesan about dinarization and our conclusion was: 'it's always tied with hightening of the stature'. I guess this is the key and this can have different roots from better living conditions to sexual selection or both.

This is backed by some works about the Bell Beaker here by Bell Beaker Blogger:


Here's a long excerpt from a 1984 paper by Van der Waals, but the context is important:

In his paper 'Anthropology of Bell Beaker people', presented to the symposium, Professor Kurt Gerhardt summarized and substantiated his views on Bell Beaker physical anthropology (1976). Gerhardt is a representative of the traditional typological approach in physical anthropology, with a keen knowledge of human genetics. He acquired fame by his definition of one specific cranial type, occurring in Bell Beaker contexts: the planoccipital steephead. At Oberried he pointed out that this planoccipital steephead was the most characteristic and numerically important type identified by him among the essentially heterogeneous complex of cranial types in Bell Beaker graves. The type had
never been found with any of the earlier Neolithic Central European groups. He based his arguments on his own research, chiefly comprising finds from Central Europe (from the Elsass to Southwest Poland), but on the basis of inspection of material published and illustrated in Crania Britannica from 1865 he was convinced that planoccipital steepheads were also represented on the British Isles. What made Gerhardt's contribution remarkable was his emphatic demonstration of a systematic sexual dimorphism. Among male 'Bell Beaker' skeletons in Central Europe, he had found more than twice the number of planoccipital steepheads than among female 'Bell Beaker' skeletons of the same area. He furthermore noted that many of the male planoccipital steepheads had been found in the richer Bell Beaker graves, and concluded that 'this remarkable situation asked for a sociological explanation'. During the final discussion of the symposium he explained that he could only think of this situation as resulting from strong endogamy within clans, as with Medieval European high nobility. The resolution of such a social system at the end of the Bell Beaker period could account for the disappearance of the planoccipital steephead in the succeeding Unetice period.

Essentially we learn something that has been recently eluded to in Liesau et al, 2015, and that is a sociological dimension in which head shape is loosely associated with status. In Camino de Yeseras, the flat-head mother lived a good life and was given a rich burial. Ordinary women buried nearby lived hard lives and had modest burials.

The other aspect is the attention or preference given to the development of boys. Throughout much of the Old World, especially the modern MENA nations, boys are nursed substantially longer than girls. In fact, the attention disparity between genders can be cruelly stark. The degree to which girls were swaddled compared to boys may depend on where Beaker girls fell within the sequence of male children as parents would focus attention and resources on their boys.
An interesting point to dove-tail in a later post is the apparent 'ruggedness' of Bell Beaker males. Aside from being taller, they are also much stronger with stronger bones and stronger muscle attachments. Obviously part of this is genetic, part of it is diet, but another aspect could be environmental. In other words some of the skeletal evidence may point to resistance training, or at least 'feats of strength', among the warrior elite. Back to Van der Waals:

In comparing the complete groups of the three periods Czarnetzki demonstrates that thegreatest divergence is between the Late Neolithic (=Corded Ware) and Bell Beaker groups, the smallest between Bell Beaker and Unetice groups, the divergence between Late Neolithic and Unetice being intermediate. The same pattern of divergences emerged when male individuals only were taken into consideration, but among females the divergence between Late Neolithic and the Bell Beaker period was smaller than between the late Neolithic and Unetice. In this case, there appeared to be a normal type of increase in divergence through time. In other words, the gene pool in females remained unchanged into Bell Beaker times, only then certain changes appeared to take place. During the Bell Beaker period, the introduction of a new gene flow must be inferred from the shift in the values active in the formation of epigenetic traits, a shift caused mainly by male individuals.


https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2016/09/sexual-dimorphism-of-bell-beaker-folk.html

After the BB the sexual preferences obviously changed in the main parts of Europe and therefore this phenotype is today a minority in many parts of Europe!? Steepheads have in the end lost some ground :biggrin1:

JonikW
01-04-2020, 01:00 AM
When we are talking about Dinarization it has the following treats: brachycephaly+flat occiput (steephead).

The old anthropologist called it Dinarization of Dinarid phenotype because it occurred mostly there and may be they also thought it had some kind of connection with Dinaric people.

IMO it has no direct connection to the Dinaric population (although it certainly occurred there!) it occurs anywhere, regarding Europe from England to Poland and the Balkan.

It has been a speciale 'trademark' or 'stigma' of the Bell Beakers. Some even stated that the dominant phenotype of the Bell Beaker was Dinarid. I translate it as the Bell Beakers have undergone a process of Dinarization. But is has occurred in more times and places.

But what is the key to it? I corresponded with member Moesan about dinarization and our conclusion was: 'it's always tied with hightening of the stature'. I guess this is the key and this can have different roots from better living conditions to sexual selection or both.

This is backed by some works about the Bell Beaker here by Bell Beaker Blogger:



https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2016/09/sexual-dimorphism-of-bell-beaker-folk.html

After the BB the sexual preferences obviously changed in the main parts of Europe and therefore this phenotype is today a minority in many parts of Europe!? Steepheads have in the end lost some ground :biggrin1:

If this was exhibited more in elite males than in females and others in the same population group, I'd look at the swaddling that was alluded to in that Beaker quote first. We've all seen the Hun skulls and know what binding can mean when carried out in extreme. Perhaps these wealthy males were bound into something like a modern baby carrier, but with a head tie, for a prolonged period. As a western European I remember being surprised that my son was extremely tightly swaddled in hospital after he was born in Moscow 19 years ago and also being curious about how that might affect bone development if prolonged over time. That didn't involve his skull, fortunately...

Finn
01-04-2020, 08:33 AM
If this was exhibited more in elite males than in females and others in the same population group, I'd look at the swaddling that was alluded to in that Beaker quote first. We've all seen the Hun skulls and know what binding can mean when carried out in extreme. Perhaps these wealthy males were bound into something like a modern baby carrier, but with a head tie, for a prolonged period. As a western European I remember being surprised that my son was extremely tightly swaddled in hospital after he was born in Moscow 19 years ago and also being curious about how that might affect bone development if prolonged over time. That didn't involve his skull, fortunately...

Yes could be the praxis. But even today people have that phenotype without swaddling... If it was done then this is most probably a signal that the sexual selection for those who had a 'natural' steep head was strong. And that the status was high.

It delivers us a major sign of the BB spread.

oz
01-04-2020, 10:36 AM
The flat back of the skull makes your neck look thicc
That's why the ladies like it.

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 10:56 AM
You should not forget the Keltic Nordic phenotype as well.It is connected with BB movements and many Dutch people,belgians,british and some French as well have the Keltic Nordic phenotype,witch in this case the cephalic index is more mesocephalic than Brachy.The former dutch goalkeeper Edwin Van Der Sar,Dries Van Agt,Wim Kok are very good examples of this phenotype.I have been in Netherlands many times,the south is mostly Keltic Nordic proper,Some North Atlantid/Atlantomed with many Alpine individuals like Mark Rutte,Van Persie and Jan Balkenende.The northern regions are way more different in terms of looks.By far more germano-nordic.People there look closer to scandinavians than anything.

Finn
01-04-2020, 11:39 AM
You should not forget the Keltic Nordic phenotype as well.It is connected with BB movements and many Dutch people,belgians,british and some French as well have the Keltic Nordic phenotype,witch in this case the cephalic index is more mesocephalic than Brachy.The former dutch goalkeeper Edwin Van Der Sar,Dries Van Agt,Wim Kok are very good examples of this phenotype.I have been in Netherlands many times,the south is mostly Keltic Nordic proper,Some North Atlantid/Atlantomed with many Alpine individuals like Mark Rutte,Van Persie and Jan Balkenende.The northern regions are way more different in terms of looks.By far more germano-nordic.People there look closer to scandinavians than anything.

Though the hotspots of the Beakers are above the Rhine, especially NE Dutch, the Veluwe (in the center even nowadays a R1b-P312 hotspot) and Drenthe (outmost NE).
Regarding BB is 'Keltic Nordic' not specific. Brachy + flat occiput is.....

Finn
01-04-2020, 11:40 AM
The flat back of the skull makes your neck look thicc
That's why the ladies like it.

May be liked it ;)

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 11:58 AM
Though the hotspots of the Beakers are above the Rhine, especially NE Dutch, the Veluwe (in the center even nowadays a R1b-P312 hotspot) and Drenthe (outmost NE).
Regarding BB is 'Keltic Nordic' not specific. Brachy + flat occiput is.....

Dutch people are very meso-dolicho(both in south and in northern regions) C.I.Well,i have never really seen any Dutch in my life with flat occiput.Its exactly the opposite.The most brachy individuals in Netherlands are those with borreby looks with germanic character profile.Arjen Robben is an a good example and he looks kinda germanic on look.Its true thought that KN is not 100% accurate but IMO it’s connected with BB or maybe later migrations(celtic,la tene,hallstatt) but definetly not connected with the germanic expansion.

Finn
01-04-2020, 12:17 PM
Dutch people are very meso-dolicho(both in south and in northern regions) C.I.Well,i have never really seen any Dutch in my life with flat occiput.Its exactly the opposite.The most brachy individuals in Netherlands are those with borreby looks with germanic character profile.Arjen Robben is an a good example and he looks kinda germanic on look.Its true thought that KN is not 100% accurate but IMO it’s connected with BB or maybe later migrations(celtic,la tene,hallstatt) but definetly not connected with the germanic expansion.

I don't want to make it a 'freak' show, so I show it and will delete it soon after, but I guess this is quite clear:

_deleted photo's_

the metrics
Your cephalic index is: 83.8 (brachycephalic)
Your height/length index is: 74.8 (hypsicephalic)
Your height/breadth index is: 89.2 (acrocephalic)
Your facial index is: 88.1 (leptoprosopic)
Your upper facial index is: 56.3 (mesene)
Your nasal index is: 56.9 (leptorrhine)

That's pretty 'dinarized':)

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 12:20 PM
Also to mention that British people are extremely Dolichocephalic(probably The most Dolicho nation) and The majority of them have BB ancestry pretty much. So, The FLAT-Occiput=BB dinarism dosnt suits me tbh. The most FLAT occiput nations in EU are in balkans(albanians, South Slavs, Greeks etc) people with non BB roots. For me the above theory is pretty much Wrong.

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 12:26 PM
Is this guy you posted Dutch? He is indeed very Dinaric and has a Balkan vibe as well.
My whole point is that flat occiput is probably a progress and not neccesary associated with some kind of historical ancestry.

Finn
01-04-2020, 12:30 PM
Is this guy you posted Dutch? He is indeed very Dinaric and has a Balkan vibe as well.
My whole point is that flat occiput is probably a progress and not neccesary associated with some kind of historical ancestry.

It's me....stocky North Dutch ;)

No connection with the Balkans though a severe shot BB is assumable.

Finn
01-04-2020, 12:34 PM
My whole point is that flat occiput is probably a progress and not neccesary associated with some kind of historical ancestry.

I totally agree, It's probably cultivated amongst the BB.....

Finn
01-04-2020, 03:11 PM
Dutch people are very meso-dolicho(both in south and in northern regions) C.I.Well,i have never really seen any Dutch in my life with flat occiput.Its exactly the opposite.The most brachy individuals in Netherlands are those with borreby looks with germanic character profile.Arjen Robben is an a good example and he looks kinda germanic on look.Its true thought that KN is not 100% accurate but IMO itís connected with BB or maybe later migrations(celtic,la tene,hallstatt) but definetly not connected with the germanic expansion.

I guess that Gerhardt was more actual in his description of the phenotypes of the BB graves (he debunked the Borreby category).
This is based on the work of Gerhardt about Bell Beakers, divided in four "phenotypes" (published in: Julius, Wahl 2018):

https://www.mupload.nl/img/jjsuvflt.56.46.png

I guess this is also accurat for the nowadays European population.

I'm close to the first one.

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 03:58 PM
Yes, Finn the first skull seems also very close with Arjen Robben's skull. I can't say for sure if its Borreby or Dinarization, thought Arjen is not very robust but quite the opossite he seems also to have very leptorihne nose.

Finn
01-05-2020, 09:12 PM
Yes, Finn the first skull seems also very close with Arjen Robben's skull. I can't say for sure if its Borreby or Dinarization, thought Arjen is not very robust but quite the opossite he seems also to have very leptorihne nose.

This from E.A. Hooton's Up from the Ape (New York, 1947). He describes the dominant Bell Beaker type. In fact he describes dinarization. But he stays in the paradigma of some 'racial mix' of "Nordic' and 'Alpines' as if that were 'races' in stead of phenotypes....

I guess dinarization is a better description for what has happened with the Bell Beaker phenotype than a supposed 'racial mixing', that's IMO fully outdated.


'British Bronze Age (Beaker type)

Distinguishing Characters:
A. Head form: more massive and globular, less pointed than Dinaric
B. Face form: broader in malar region, squarer, gonial angles more marked
C. Nose form: fleshier than the ordinary Dinaric nose, shorter
D. Skin color: usually florid or ruddy
E. Hair color: oftener reddish
F. Body build: heavier and broader than average Dinaric(?)

In the Bronze Age, or just before the introduction of bronze, Britain
was invaded by tall, massive roundheads who seem to have come from
about the same area near the mouth of the Rhine and northwestern
Germany from which the later Anglo-Saxons sailed. (years and years before Olalde- Finn ;) Probably other
brachycephals came to England later during this period, but the custom
of cremation obscures their racial affinities. British anthropologists
have long recognized a contemporary English and Scottish type as
probably surviving from these Bronze Age invaders or as an effect of
recombination of the same subracial elements.


It is tall, heavy-boned, weighty and, in middle and advanced years,
obese. The skin is usually florid or beefy, the eyes blue or light
mixed. Sometimes, however, and especially in Shetland, and in parts of
North England, and Scotland, and Ireland, the hair and skin are dark.
The head is massive, brachycephalic and sometimes rather flattened
behind. If the high, pointed Armenoid-Dinaric brachycephaly exist in
this type, it is uncommon. Brow-ridges are heavy, malars prominent,
and the face rather broad, but not short. The nose is usually long,
wide, and convex-decidely beaky. Beard and body hair are strongly
developed.

It has ordinarily been considered an Alpine-Nordic cross, and it is
clear enough that both of these elements frequently enter into its
composition. However, the nasal convexity and occasionally flattened
occiput perhaps qualify the type more correctly as Dinaric. This is
the opinion of Coon, who points out that the blend could not have been
formed in situ in Britain because of the absence of any antecedent
Alpine type that is an essential ingredient. As a matter of fact, Coon
thinks that the brachycephlic element in the John Bull type is closer
to the ancient massive Borreby type that the supposedly reduced Alpine
derivative.

If the Dinaric theory of British Bronze Age origins is correct, the
type harks back in respect of its nasal convexity to some ultimately
Middle or Near Eastern element, much adultered and modified by
admixture with western European types. As a matter of fact, probably
some of the so-called Bronze Age types are merely crosses of later
Nordic longheaded blonds with the pure Alpines(?).