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Finn
01-03-2020, 07:48 PM
When we are talking about Dinarization it has the following treats: brachycephaly+flat occiput (steephead).

The old anthropologist called it Dinarization of Dinarid phenotype because it occurred mostly there and may be they also thought it had some kind of connection with Dinaric people.

IMO it has no direct connection to the Dinaric population (although it certainly occurred there!) it occurs anywhere, regarding Europe from England to Poland and the Balkan.

It has been a speciale 'trademark' or 'stigma' of the Bell Beakers. Some even stated that the dominant phenotype of the Bell Beaker was Dinarid. I translate it as the Bell Beakers have undergone a process of Dinarization. But is has occurred in more times and places.

But what is the key to it? I corresponded with member Moesan about dinarization and our conclusion was: 'it's always tied with hightening of the stature'. I guess this is the key and this can have different roots from better living conditions to sexual selection or both.

This is backed by some works about the Bell Beaker here by Bell Beaker Blogger:


Here's a long excerpt from a 1984 paper by Van der Waals, but the context is important:

In his paper 'Anthropology of Bell Beaker people', presented to the symposium, Professor Kurt Gerhardt summarized and substantiated his views on Bell Beaker physical anthropology (1976). Gerhardt is a representative of the traditional typological approach in physical anthropology, with a keen knowledge of human genetics. He acquired fame by his definition of one specific cranial type, occurring in Bell Beaker contexts: the planoccipital steephead. At Oberried he pointed out that this planoccipital steephead was the most characteristic and numerically important type identified by him among the essentially heterogeneous complex of cranial types in Bell Beaker graves. The type had
never been found with any of the earlier Neolithic Central European groups. He based his arguments on his own research, chiefly comprising finds from Central Europe (from the Elsass to Southwest Poland), but on the basis of inspection of material published and illustrated in Crania Britannica from 1865 he was convinced that planoccipital steepheads were also represented on the British Isles. What made Gerhardt's contribution remarkable was his emphatic demonstration of a systematic sexual dimorphism. Among male 'Bell Beaker' skeletons in Central Europe, he had found more than twice the number of planoccipital steepheads than among female 'Bell Beaker' skeletons of the same area. He furthermore noted that many of the male planoccipital steepheads had been found in the richer Bell Beaker graves, and concluded that 'this remarkable situation asked for a sociological explanation'. During the final discussion of the symposium he explained that he could only think of this situation as resulting from strong endogamy within clans, as with Medieval European high nobility. The resolution of such a social system at the end of the Bell Beaker period could account for the disappearance of the planoccipital steephead in the succeeding Unetice period.

Essentially we learn something that has been recently eluded to in Liesau et al, 2015, and that is a sociological dimension in which head shape is loosely associated with status. In Camino de Yeseras, the flat-head mother lived a good life and was given a rich burial. Ordinary women buried nearby lived hard lives and had modest burials.

The other aspect is the attention or preference given to the development of boys. Throughout much of the Old World, especially the modern MENA nations, boys are nursed substantially longer than girls. In fact, the attention disparity between genders can be cruelly stark. The degree to which girls were swaddled compared to boys may depend on where Beaker girls fell within the sequence of male children as parents would focus attention and resources on their boys.
An interesting point to dove-tail in a later post is the apparent 'ruggedness' of Bell Beaker males. Aside from being taller, they are also much stronger with stronger bones and stronger muscle attachments. Obviously part of this is genetic, part of it is diet, but another aspect could be environmental. In other words some of the skeletal evidence may point to resistance training, or at least 'feats of strength', among the warrior elite. Back to Van der Waals:

In comparing the complete groups of the three periods Czarnetzki demonstrates that thegreatest divergence is between the Late Neolithic (=Corded Ware) and Bell Beaker groups, the smallest between Bell Beaker and Unetice groups, the divergence between Late Neolithic and Unetice being intermediate. The same pattern of divergences emerged when male individuals only were taken into consideration, but among females the divergence between Late Neolithic and the Bell Beaker period was smaller than between the late Neolithic and Unetice. In this case, there appeared to be a normal type of increase in divergence through time. In other words, the gene pool in females remained unchanged into Bell Beaker times, only then certain changes appeared to take place. During the Bell Beaker period, the introduction of a new gene flow must be inferred from the shift in the values active in the formation of epigenetic traits, a shift caused mainly by male individuals.


https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2016/09/sexual-dimorphism-of-bell-beaker-folk.html

After the BB the sexual preferences obviously changed in the main parts of Europe and therefore this phenotype is today a minority in many parts of Europe!? Steepheads have in the end lost some ground :biggrin1:

JonikW
01-04-2020, 01:00 AM
When we are talking about Dinarization it has the following treats: brachycephaly+flat occiput (steephead).

The old anthropologist called it Dinarization of Dinarid phenotype because it occurred mostly there and may be they also thought it had some kind of connection with Dinaric people.

IMO it has no direct connection to the Dinaric population (although it certainly occurred there!) it occurs anywhere, regarding Europe from England to Poland and the Balkan.

It has been a speciale 'trademark' or 'stigma' of the Bell Beakers. Some even stated that the dominant phenotype of the Bell Beaker was Dinarid. I translate it as the Bell Beakers have undergone a process of Dinarization. But is has occurred in more times and places.

But what is the key to it? I corresponded with member Moesan about dinarization and our conclusion was: 'it's always tied with hightening of the stature'. I guess this is the key and this can have different roots from better living conditions to sexual selection or both.

This is backed by some works about the Bell Beaker here by Bell Beaker Blogger:



https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2016/09/sexual-dimorphism-of-bell-beaker-folk.html

After the BB the sexual preferences obviously changed in the main parts of Europe and therefore this phenotype is today a minority in many parts of Europe!? Steepheads have in the end lost some ground :biggrin1:

If this was exhibited more in elite males than in females and others in the same population group, I'd look at the swaddling that was alluded to in that Beaker quote first. We've all seen the Hun skulls and know what binding can mean when carried out in extreme. Perhaps these wealthy males were bound into something like a modern baby carrier, but with a head tie, for a prolonged period. As a western European I remember being surprised that my son was extremely tightly swaddled in hospital after he was born in Moscow 19 years ago and also being curious about how that might affect bone development if prolonged over time. That didn't involve his skull, fortunately...

Finn
01-04-2020, 08:33 AM
If this was exhibited more in elite males than in females and others in the same population group, I'd look at the swaddling that was alluded to in that Beaker quote first. We've all seen the Hun skulls and know what binding can mean when carried out in extreme. Perhaps these wealthy males were bound into something like a modern baby carrier, but with a head tie, for a prolonged period. As a western European I remember being surprised that my son was extremely tightly swaddled in hospital after he was born in Moscow 19 years ago and also being curious about how that might affect bone development if prolonged over time. That didn't involve his skull, fortunately...

Yes could be the praxis. But even today people have that phenotype without swaddling... If it was done then this is most probably a signal that the sexual selection for those who had a 'natural' steep head was strong. And that the status was high.

It delivers us a major sign of the BB spread.

oz
01-04-2020, 10:36 AM
The flat back of the skull makes your neck look thicc
That's why the ladies like it.

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 10:56 AM
You should not forget the Keltic Nordic phenotype as well.It is connected with BB movements and many Dutch people,belgians,british and some French as well have the Keltic Nordic phenotype,witch in this case the cephalic index is more mesocephalic than Brachy.The former dutch goalkeeper Edwin Van Der Sar,Dries Van Agt,Wim Kok are very good examples of this phenotype.I have been in Netherlands many times,the south is mostly Keltic Nordic proper,Some North Atlantid/Atlantomed with many Alpine individuals like Mark Rutte,Van Persie and Jan Balkenende.The northern regions are way more different in terms of looks.By far more germano-nordic.People there look closer to scandinavians than anything.

Finn
01-04-2020, 11:39 AM
You should not forget the Keltic Nordic phenotype as well.It is connected with BB movements and many Dutch people,belgians,british and some French as well have the Keltic Nordic phenotype,witch in this case the cephalic index is more mesocephalic than Brachy.The former dutch goalkeeper Edwin Van Der Sar,Dries Van Agt,Wim Kok are very good examples of this phenotype.I have been in Netherlands many times,the south is mostly Keltic Nordic proper,Some North Atlantid/Atlantomed with many Alpine individuals like Mark Rutte,Van Persie and Jan Balkenende.The northern regions are way more different in terms of looks.By far more germano-nordic.People there look closer to scandinavians than anything.

Though the hotspots of the Beakers are above the Rhine, especially NE Dutch, the Veluwe (in the center even nowadays a R1b-P312 hotspot) and Drenthe (outmost NE).
Regarding BB is 'Keltic Nordic' not specific. Brachy + flat occiput is.....

Finn
01-04-2020, 11:40 AM
The flat back of the skull makes your neck look thicc
That's why the ladies like it.

May be liked it ;)

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 11:58 AM
Though the hotspots of the Beakers are above the Rhine, especially NE Dutch, the Veluwe (in the center even nowadays a R1b-P312 hotspot) and Drenthe (outmost NE).
Regarding BB is 'Keltic Nordic' not specific. Brachy + flat occiput is.....

Dutch people are very meso-dolicho(both in south and in northern regions) C.I.Well,i have never really seen any Dutch in my life with flat occiput.Its exactly the opposite.The most brachy individuals in Netherlands are those with borreby looks with germanic character profile.Arjen Robben is an a good example and he looks kinda germanic on look.Its true thought that KN is not 100% accurate but IMO it’s connected with BB or maybe later migrations(celtic,la tene,hallstatt) but definetly not connected with the germanic expansion.

Finn
01-04-2020, 12:17 PM
Dutch people are very meso-dolicho(both in south and in northern regions) C.I.Well,i have never really seen any Dutch in my life with flat occiput.Its exactly the opposite.The most brachy individuals in Netherlands are those with borreby looks with germanic character profile.Arjen Robben is an a good example and he looks kinda germanic on look.Its true thought that KN is not 100% accurate but IMO it’s connected with BB or maybe later migrations(celtic,la tene,hallstatt) but definetly not connected with the germanic expansion.

I don't want to make it a 'freak' show, so I show it and will delete it soon after, but I guess this is quite clear:

_deleted photo's_

the metrics
Your cephalic index is: 83.8 (brachycephalic)
Your height/length index is: 74.8 (hypsicephalic)
Your height/breadth index is: 89.2 (acrocephalic)
Your facial index is: 88.1 (leptoprosopic)
Your upper facial index is: 56.3 (mesene)
Your nasal index is: 56.9 (leptorrhine)

That's pretty 'dinarized':)

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 12:20 PM
Also to mention that British people are extremely Dolichocephalic(probably The most Dolicho nation) and The majority of them have BB ancestry pretty much. So, The FLAT-Occiput=BB dinarism dosnt suits me tbh. The most FLAT occiput nations in EU are in balkans(albanians, South Slavs, Greeks etc) people with non BB roots. For me the above theory is pretty much Wrong.

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 12:26 PM
Is this guy you posted Dutch? He is indeed very Dinaric and has a Balkan vibe as well.
My whole point is that flat occiput is probably a progress and not neccesary associated with some kind of historical ancestry.

Finn
01-04-2020, 12:30 PM
Is this guy you posted Dutch? He is indeed very Dinaric and has a Balkan vibe as well.
My whole point is that flat occiput is probably a progress and not neccesary associated with some kind of historical ancestry.

It's me....stocky North Dutch ;)

No connection with the Balkans though a severe shot BB is assumable.

Finn
01-04-2020, 12:34 PM
My whole point is that flat occiput is probably a progress and not neccesary associated with some kind of historical ancestry.

I totally agree, It's probably cultivated amongst the BB.....

Finn
01-04-2020, 03:11 PM
Dutch people are very meso-dolicho(both in south and in northern regions) C.I.Well,i have never really seen any Dutch in my life with flat occiput.Its exactly the opposite.The most brachy individuals in Netherlands are those with borreby looks with germanic character profile.Arjen Robben is an a good example and he looks kinda germanic on look.Its true thought that KN is not 100% accurate but IMO it’s connected with BB or maybe later migrations(celtic,la tene,hallstatt) but definetly not connected with the germanic expansion.

I guess that Gerhardt was more actual in his description of the phenotypes of the BB graves (he debunked the Borreby category).
This is based on the work of Gerhardt about Bell Beakers, divided in four "phenotypes" (published in: Julius, Wahl 2018):

https://www.mupload.nl/img/jjsuvflt.56.46.png

I guess this is also accurat for the nowadays European population.

I'm close to the first one.

Johnny ola
01-04-2020, 03:58 PM
Yes, Finn the first skull seems also very close with Arjen Robben's skull. I can't say for sure if its Borreby or Dinarization, thought Arjen is not very robust but quite the opossite he seems also to have very leptorihne nose.

Finn
01-05-2020, 09:12 PM
Yes, Finn the first skull seems also very close with Arjen Robben's skull. I can't say for sure if its Borreby or Dinarization, thought Arjen is not very robust but quite the opossite he seems also to have very leptorihne nose.

This from E.A. Hooton's Up from the Ape (New York, 1947). He describes the dominant Bell Beaker type. In fact he describes dinarization. But he stays in the paradigma of some 'racial mix' of "Nordic' and 'Alpines' as if that were 'races' in stead of phenotypes....

I guess dinarization is a better description for what has happened with the Bell Beaker phenotype than a supposed 'racial mixing', that's IMO fully outdated.


'British Bronze Age (Beaker type)

Distinguishing Characters:
A. Head form: more massive and globular, less pointed than Dinaric
B. Face form: broader in malar region, squarer, gonial angles more marked
C. Nose form: fleshier than the ordinary Dinaric nose, shorter
D. Skin color: usually florid or ruddy
E. Hair color: oftener reddish
F. Body build: heavier and broader than average Dinaric(?)

In the Bronze Age, or just before the introduction of bronze, Britain
was invaded by tall, massive roundheads who seem to have come from
about the same area near the mouth of the Rhine and northwestern
Germany from which the later Anglo-Saxons sailed. (years and years before Olalde- Finn ;) Probably other
brachycephals came to England later during this period, but the custom
of cremation obscures their racial affinities. British anthropologists
have long recognized a contemporary English and Scottish type as
probably surviving from these Bronze Age invaders or as an effect of
recombination of the same subracial elements.


It is tall, heavy-boned, weighty and, in middle and advanced years,
obese. The skin is usually florid or beefy, the eyes blue or light
mixed. Sometimes, however, and especially in Shetland, and in parts of
North England, and Scotland, and Ireland, the hair and skin are dark.
The head is massive, brachycephalic and sometimes rather flattened
behind. If the high, pointed Armenoid-Dinaric brachycephaly exist in
this type, it is uncommon. Brow-ridges are heavy, malars prominent,
and the face rather broad, but not short. The nose is usually long,
wide, and convex-decidely beaky. Beard and body hair are strongly
developed.

It has ordinarily been considered an Alpine-Nordic cross, and it is
clear enough that both of these elements frequently enter into its
composition. However, the nasal convexity and occasionally flattened
occiput perhaps qualify the type more correctly as Dinaric. This is
the opinion of Coon, who points out that the blend could not have been
formed in situ in Britain because of the absence of any antecedent
Alpine type that is an essential ingredient. As a matter of fact, Coon
thinks that the brachycephlic element in the John Bull type is closer
to the ancient massive Borreby type that the supposedly reduced Alpine
derivative.

If the Dinaric theory of British Bronze Age origins is correct, the
type harks back in respect of its nasal convexity to some ultimately
Middle or Near Eastern element, much adultered and modified by
admixture with western European types. As a matter of fact, probably
some of the so-called Bronze Age types are merely crosses of later
Nordic longheaded blonds with the pure Alpines(?).

rikvdb
10-04-2020, 08:05 AM
You should not forget the Keltic Nordic phenotype as well.It is connected with BB movements and many Dutch people,belgians,british and some French as well have the Keltic Nordic phenotype,witch in this case the cephalic index is more mesocephalic than Brachy.The former dutch goalkeeper Edwin Van Der Sar,Dries Van Agt,Wim Kok are very good examples of this phenotype.I have been in Netherlands many times,the south is mostly Keltic Nordic proper,Some North Atlantid/Atlantomed with many Alpine individuals like Mark Rutte,Van Persie and Jan Balkenende.The northern regions are way more different in terms of looks.By far more germano-nordic.People there look closer to scandinavians than anything.

Belgian people are usually more brachycephalic than anything else. My cephalic index is around 88. I am from the Dutch speaking part.
Don't believe the old maps of cephalic index, as they are always different and vague as fuck.
Though closer to the Dutch border there are somewhat more Nordic tendencies on average.

dosas
10-04-2020, 09:06 AM
Flat occiput is almost entirely preventable through physiotherapy, certain pillows and even helmets in extreme cases. My babies suffered from it and now there is not a sign of it (early physiotherapy).

rikvdb
10-04-2020, 09:25 AM
Flat occiput is almost entirely preventable through physiotherapy, certain pillows and even helmets in extreme cases. My babies suffered from it and now there is not a sign of it (early physiotherapy).

But it isn't necessarily a medical condition. It depends on the exact angles and the position of the eyes and such.

dosas
10-04-2020, 11:02 AM
But it isn't necessarily a medical condition. It depends on the exact angles and the position of the eyes and such.

The hospital prescribed immediate treatment with 10 hour physiotherapy sessions per week for both. I mean we could have left it and not do it (we had the choice) but then what would we have said to our kids when they'd be older and ask us why their skull looks like a squashed egg-plant?

So we did what we thought was right for them and went through with the physio and now their heads are perfectly symmetrical and very beautiful I might add. We send the physiotherapist a basket of treats every Xmas.

Finn
10-04-2020, 11:08 AM
The hospital prescribed immediate treatment with 10 hour physiotherapy sessions per week for both. I mean we could have left it and not do it (we had the choice) but then what would we have said to our kids when they'd be older and ask us why their skull looks like a squashed egg-plant?

So we did what we thought was right for them and went through with the physio and now their heads are perfectly symmetrical and very beautiful I might add. We send the physiotherapist a basket of treats every Xmas.

I guess there is a difference between a medical case and a 'regular' flat occiput.

dosas
10-04-2020, 12:39 PM
I guess there is a difference between a medical case and a 'regular' flat occiput.

The flat occiputs are the result of the following process, their 'severeness' mileage may vary, depending on the case. Ours were on the severe side but not to the point where we would have to use a helmet. When the baby is pushed through the vaginal opening, or having a certain position in the womb prior to getting to the right position for exit, due to softness of the bone the head comes out squished.

This is naturally negated by the process of the skull growing and eventually hardening, but the occupit problem arises when the baby has a relatively heavy and/or big skull and lies on a certain angle (usually on the back of the head or on the side if the baby turns to the light or dark when sleeping).

The way you avoid the occiput forming is through the use of one of these pillows, in mild cases,


https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/H5a875a590fb94451b1b8895f5c9ee6bcX.jpg?smt_ispass_ 4583380

https://image.youbeli.com/screenshots/508538_932653.jpg

or with physio/helmets in more serious cases:



https://www.nicklauschildrens.org/NCH/media/img/general/cranial-remodeling-helmet-1d.jpg

https://opedge.com/Content/OldArticles/images/2006-05_05/f-4-1.jpg


Physio (best choice imo) cures it by jumpstarting the baby's muscle (back, arms, chest, legs) development allowing the baby to accelerate the speed of them being able to start turning around, crawling, sleeping or lying down in different positions, turning their neck easily, etc. As such, the baby is no longer 'trapped' in a certain lying position, causing the relative large/heavy head to create an occupit.

This thread is treating the condition as some sort of classification trophy in terms of 'racial uniqueness', based on outdated publications (in relation to modern medicine and physiotherapy) and it's borderline comical.

Finn
10-04-2020, 05:37 PM
The flat occiputs are the result of the following process, their 'severeness' mileage may vary, depending on the case. Ours were on the severe side but not to the point where we would have to use a helmet. When the baby is pushed through the vaginal opening, or having a certain position in the womb prior to getting to the right position for exit, due to softness of the bone the head comes out squished.

This is naturally negated by the process of the skull growing and eventually hardening, but the occupit problem arises when the baby has a relatively heavy and/or big skull and lies on a certain angle (usually on the back of the head or on the side if the baby turns to the light or dark when sleeping).

The way you avoid the occiput forming is through the use of one of these pillows, in mild cases,


https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/H5a875a590fb94451b1b8895f5c9ee6bcX.jpg?smt_ispass_ 4583380

https://image.youbeli.com/screenshots/508538_932653.jpg

or with physio/helmets in more serious cases:



https://www.nicklauschildrens.org/NCH/media/img/general/cranial-remodeling-helmet-1d.jpg

https://opedge.com/Content/OldArticles/images/2006-05_05/f-4-1.jpg


Physio (best choice imo) cures it by jumpstarting the baby's muscle (back, arms, chest, legs) development allowing the baby to accelerate the speed of them being able to start turning around, crawling, sleeping or lying down in different positions, turning their neck easily, etc. As such, the baby is no longer 'trapped' in a certain lying position, causing the relative large/heavy head to create an occupit.

This thread is treating the condition as some sort of classification trophy in terms of 'racial uniqueness', based on outdated publications (in relation to modern medicine and physiotherapy) and it's borderline comical.

Indeed when there is a situation of medical need to treatment no doubts. I recognize that can be a difficult situation. But I want to stress I don't see it as a 'classification trophy'. It just occurred along the Bell Beakers and their heirs. More factual than to be proud of or see it in the way you describe...I see it not as a trophy, why should I (should I see my chestnust eyes as trophy or my goldblond hair ;) would be pathetic.

Riverman
10-04-2020, 06:09 PM
I think a very important aspect of the whole thing is the inheritance pattern. In my opinion the classic planoccipital skullshape being subdominant in the mixture. Its very interesting that in countries like Bavaria, Austria, Croatia, Czechia and Serbia you can find classic Dinaric specimen on a regular basis, but in my opinion and based on my observations much, much more frequently in fairly unmixed, local and rural people. Its much less frequent in the urban centres and the more mixed places, especially almost no clear cases. It goes as far that if I see a typical German speaking one in Bavaria or Austria, its almost for certain he comes from a quite rural part of the country and will speak a stronger dialect much more often.

Comparing that to the past, its fascinating that Unetice had genetically a strong Bell Beaker impact, and the brachycranic skulls didn't disappear, but directly after the mixture with Corded Ware and Carpathian people in the Unetice centre, the frequency dropped to very low levels. The same happened everywhere where there was a massive mixture with dolichocephals. Whereas those regions which kept their isolated valley status and didn't changed too much after the Bell Beaker dominance was broken, kept their headshape. So what this crania of the Bell Beaker really points to is that they were fairly inbred or at least endogamous people, especially their upper and middle class. This leaves us with another problem, namely that many Rhenish Beaker groups were fairly mixed and this shows especially in the dependent lower class from poor graves. But there seems to have been a constant supply of fairly typical individuals, male more so than females, but this is also because the Dinaric traits are more pronounced in the male - its a more masculine type. However, where did this supply come from, from which centres? We know from the Lech Valley people, which were mostly Bell Beakers, that they had wide ranging marriage networks. I guess the typical phenotype came first into existence because of natural selection or just drift, but was later used as the "signal and trademark" of those belonging to the "ruling class". Like it can happen oftentimes, a trait appears, rather randomly, but if the people which have it win and are successful, it becomes the trademark for success.
That was also the reason why different people adopted different fashions, even head deformation, from a dominant group, as ugly it might have looked, even to themselves. In this case its not necessarily ugly, that's not the point, but it might have developed in a fairly inbred group and was kept alive as a signal of "purity" and "membership". Otherwise Dinarization as a process is common in pastoralists, especially those practising transhumance in higher altitude, living in fairly small groups and again, more clanish and endogamic people. There is actually no group, of which I know, which was not very clanish and endogamous, which has a dominance of this headshape. I read some claim its a dominant trait, I don't believe that at all, at least not for the main characteristics common in Central and South Eastern Europe. Also in couples I know, very rarely the more shortened skull is dominant in the children, and if it appears in the offspring of different looking partners, its usually running in both families. Mix up "pure" ones and the kids are usually meso-dolichocephalic, but the trait can reappear in the following generations, just like expected if being subdominant - same as with blue eyes. Pure dolichocephaly is also not dominant, but again, if mixing the planoccipital brachycephalic with the curvoccipital dolichocephalic, it will tend more towards the latter in the meso-dolichocephalic range.

Finn
10-04-2020, 06:30 PM
I think a very important aspect of the whole thing is the inheritance pattern. In my opinion the classic planoccipital skullshape being subdominant in the mixture. Its very interesting that in countries like Bavaria, Austria, Croatia, Czechia and Serbia you can find classic Dinaric specimen on a regular basis, but in my opinion and based on my observations much, much more frequently in fairly unmixed, local and rural people. Its much less frequent in the urban centres and the more mixed places, especially almost no clear cases. It goes as far that if I see a typical German speaking one in Bavaria or Austria, its almost for certain he comes from a quite rural part of the country and will speak a stronger dialect much more often.

Comparing that to the past, its fascinating that Unetice had genetically a strong Bell Beaker impact, and the brachycranic skulls didn't disappear, but directly after the mixture with Corded Ware and Carpathian people in the Unetice centre, the frequency dropped to very low levels. The same happened everywhere where there was a massive mixture with dolichocephals. Whereas those regions which kept their isolated valley status and didn't changed too much after the Bell Beaker dominance was broken, kept their headshape. So what this crania of the Bell Beaker really points to is that they were fairly inbred or at least endogamous people, especially their upper and middle class. This leaves us with another problem, namely that many Rhenish Beaker groups were fairly mixed and this shows especially in the dependent lower class from poor graves. But there seems to have been a constant supply of fairly typical individuals, male more so than females, but this is also because the Dinaric traits are more pronounced in the male - its a more masculine type. However, where did this supply come from, from which centres? We know from the Lech Valley people, which were mostly Bell Beakers, that they had wide ranging marriage networks. I guess the typical phenotype came first into existence because of natural selection or just drift, but was later used as the "signal and trademark" of those belonging to the "ruling class". Like it can happen oftentimes, a trait appears, rather randomly, but if the people which have it win and are successful, it becomes the trademark for success.
That was also the reason why different people adopted different fashions, even head deformation, from a dominant group, as ugly it might have looked, even to themselves. In this case its not necessarily ugly, that's not the point, but it might have developed in a fairly inbred group and was kept alive as a signal of "purity" and "membership". Otherwise Dinarization as a process is common in pastoralists, especially those practising transhumance in higher altitude, living in fairly small groups and again, more clanish and endogamic people. There is actually no group, of which I know, which was not very clanish and endogamous, which has a dominance of this headshape. I read some claim its a dominant trait, I don't believe that at all, at least not for the main characteristics common in Central and South Eastern Europe. Also in couples I know, very rarely the more shortened skull is dominant in the children, and if it appears in the offspring of different looking partners, its usually running in both families. Mix up "pure" ones and the kids are usually meso-dolichocephalic, but the trait can reappear in the following generations, just like expected if being subdominant - same as with blue eyes. Pure dolichocephaly is also not dominant, but again, if mixing the planoccipital brachycephalic with the curvoccipital dolichocephalic, it will tend more towards the latter in the meso-dolichocephalic range.

Rural, yes, strong dialect indeed...but Bayer hold on Riverman!:P

Buxoro
10-04-2020, 10:14 PM
I guess there is a difference between a medical case and a 'regular' flat occiput.

Imo flat occiputs should be regarded as abnormality and be treated asap. Its just cruel to kids not to prevent it while modern medicine/healthcare could do it.

Riverman
10-04-2020, 10:30 PM
Imo flat occiputs should be regarded as abnormality and be treated asap. Its just cruel to kids not to prevent it while modern medicine/healthcare could do it.

I saw many normal babies from parents which were planoccipital brachycephals. The normal headshape doesn't look as extreme as in the picture provided. Actually the occiput becomes steeper looking as they mature. Its somewhat the opposite of many mesocephals, which appear to be more curvoccipital very early but it decreases while they age. The main difference in infants is that the whole head looks much more globular and the curve of the occiput being flatter and looked at from the back broader. Normal planoccipitals don't start as extreme imho. The typical Dinaric appearance comes with the maturation, not just with the occiput, but also the face and nose growing significantly and more so in adolescence. In the young its not as pronounced, in feminine women less so, most in adult males.

Buxoro
10-04-2020, 10:40 PM
I saw many normal babies from parents which were planoccipital brachycephals. The normal headshape doesn't look as extreme as in the picture provided. Actually the occiput becomes steeper looking as they mature. Its somewhat the opposite of many mesocephals, which appear to be more curvoccipital very early but it decreases while they age. The main difference in infants is that the whole head looks much more globular and the curve of the occiput being flatter and looked at from the back broader. Normal planoccipitals don't start as extreme imho. The typical Dinaric appearance comes with the maturation, not just with the occiput, but also the face and nose growing significantly and more so in adolescence. In the young its not as pronounced, in feminine women less so, most in adult males.

I am not talking about typical dinaric headshape rather of more extreme cases of flat occiputs which can be evident already in babies.

Riverman
10-04-2020, 11:02 PM
I am not talking about typical dinaric headshape rather of more extreme cases of flat occiputs which can be evident already in babies.

I know, I just wanted to stress the difference, because the medical condition is caused by wrong positioning, with the baby always lying on the back without support, and a rather soft occipital bone structure or even unfavourable sutures. There are also medical conditions which can produce atypical forms of dolichocephaly, which too need (even more than a flatter occiput) treatment. Classical example being scaphocephaly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphocephaly

In real life its quite noticeable, but some people just confuse the medical conditions for a flat occiput or long head shape with the normal shape variation.

xenus
10-04-2020, 11:43 PM
Are you saying that there has been sexual selection for the "Dinaric" phenotype (especially skull the skull shape) of physical anthropology that is beyond just riding the coat tails of height selection?

Mr.G
10-05-2020, 12:45 AM
When I see someone with a relatively flat occiput and steep forehead, to me that is the most aesthetically appealing head shape.

Finn
10-05-2020, 05:18 PM
Are you saying that there has been sexual selection for the "Dinaric" phenotype (especially skull the skull shape) of physical anthropology that is beyond just riding the coat tails of height selection?

yes this is at least the thesis of Gerhardt, he spent a life time in studying Bell Beaker remains. The 'Dinaric' phenotype was 'cultivated' among the Bell Beakers. May be first along the Rhenish/Dutch Beakers . The big head shape etc. could well go along other overgrown features....as Riverman pointed out.

Riverman
10-05-2020, 05:44 PM
yes this is at least the thesis of Gerhardt, he spent a life time in studying Bell Beaker remains. The 'Dinaric' phenotype was 'cultivated' among the Bell Beakers. May be first along the Rhenish/Dutch Beakers . The big head shape etc. could well go along other overgrown features....as Riverman pointed out.

More decisive is in my opinion that Yamnaya and Corded Ware were not shorter than Bell Beakers. So if height selection was important for Bell Beakers, it certainly is for the classic modern Dinarics, it was from a different substrate or based on a different way of life. There was no reason to develop that headshape for height alone, because like explained, some of the tallest people were (and are) dolichocephalic, actually even the direct steppe ancestors of the Bell Beakers. Yet they changed their phenotype. So other reasons have to be considered, whatever they may be, since many selective processes affecting the phenotype being not fully explained by now.

Cascio
10-05-2020, 07:20 PM
When I see someone with a relatively flat occiput and steep forehead, to me that is the most aesthetically appealing head shape.

Each to their own.:behindsofa:

Finn
10-05-2020, 07:22 PM
More decisive is in my opinion that Yamnaya and Corded Ware were not shorter than Bell Beakers. So if height selection was important for Bell Beakers, it certainly is for the classic modern Dinarics, it was from a different substrate or based on a different way of life. There was no reason to develop that headshape for height alone, because like explained, some of the tallest people were (and are) dolichocephalic, actually even the direct steppe ancestors of the Bell Beakers. Yet they changed their phenotype. So other reasons have to be considered, whatever they may be, since many selective processes affecting the phenotype being not fully explained by now.

@Riverman there was a prelude among Yamna,
a Yamna woman (Shupta):

https://www.mupload.nl/img/pju422.03.58.png

Riverman
10-05-2020, 10:47 PM
Yes, there were actually some at least approaching similar proportions and many of the Eastern European specimen were also hypermorphic with quite large facial measurements. So its not totally new by any means, but what makes Bell Beakers so special is that they were among the first with a very high frequency, especially in the core group of wealthy and medium burials.

xenus
10-05-2020, 11:56 PM
It's not easy to definitively prove that it's not just basic founder effects and population replacement at work. That said, I for one would enjoy seeing a 10 page article titled "Ancient Dutch women preferred a man who could take a hit to the head"

rikvdb
10-06-2020, 12:33 AM
It's not easy to definitively prove that it's not just basic founder effects and population replacement at work. That said, I for one would enjoy seeing a 10 page article titled "Ancient Dutch women preferred a man who could take a hit to the head"

The Belgians look more "Dinaric" than the Dutch.

Riverman
10-06-2020, 08:12 AM
It's not easy to definitively prove that it's not just basic founder effects and population replacement at work. That said, I for one would enjoy seeing a 10 page article titled "Ancient Dutch women preferred a man who could take a hit to the head"

That's not the point either, because some of the most robust and resilient skulls being dolichocephalic. Like I said, there are only speculative explanations out there, nothing definitive. Yet it must have been selection at work, because we see shifts taking place from one shape to the other in different times and environments. There are also environmental changes which are not based on genetics and selection, like based on nutrition and way of life, but these too explain just a fraction of the observable changes. This means that we can just observe what happened, but the final and definite causes might still need to be explained by new research and data. Yet I say that a major precondition is a rather secluded and endogemous group of people, especially at the start of the process. This is even more true for the Bell Beakers, which appear in unusual places for the process and not just as transhumant pastoralists of the mountains.

On second thought you might be onto something though, because robust skulls became actually LESS IMPORTANT in Bell Beakers than they were in Corded Ware. Because the main weapons changed from clubs and axes towards arrows and daggers in war and from the blunt axes to daggers in duels. So whereas in Corded Ware warfare a hard skull was very, very important to survive, Bell Beakers were much more likely being stabbed or shot to death. So a reduction in skull robustness and resilience was not needed, but was less important at their time than before. Its like they could afford to reduce the bone thickness and robustness of the skull. The ritual duels of Corded Ware warriors led to hard blows to the head resulting in small fractures on the skull, which could be survived, but could be deadly too. Bell Beakers seem to have primarily used their daggers in the ritual duels. That change in weaponry, fighting style in war and duels, with different wounds inflicted, is actually one of THE major shifts between Corded Ware and Bell Beaker, which should be much more stressed. Its as important as the increased use of Copper in the latter and directly related to it as well. But its also a very different ideology and fighting style.

Ibericus
10-06-2020, 09:33 AM
I doubt women in those times had much of a say regarding their sexual partners. And if they did they would pick those most capable to feed and protect their families, regardless of the shape of their heads...

Maybe tall heads just happen to pass more easily through the birth canal? Meaning more successful births and less mortality.

Riverman
10-06-2020, 09:53 AM
I doubt women in those times had much of a say regarding their sexual partners. And if they did they would pick those most capable to feed and protect their families, regardless of the shape of their heads...

I think you are mostly right, but that still could have affected the social and reproductive success, because even in very patriarchal societies there is oftentimes at least the tendency that "ugly" or just "less appealing" partners had to make a better price and offer. Like to balance out their obvious physical disadvantage. And having not the physical signal of "belonging and social dominance" is a direct issue for "a provider".This means a very important high status male could still get the most attractive and fertile young woman, but for others it could still make a difference to "look different". And like explained, the steep occiput seems to have become kind of a trademark, I see no other explanation as why they kept this trait in all Bell Beakers and those sticking to the tradition afterwards. Its like they cherished it more as a signal of "belonging". So someone looking different would have had the "outsiders", "commoners" or even "slave-look" for them probably. With the exact opposite in the Corded Ware competitors. Its also interesting that they did the opposite in many ways:
Corded Ware long : Bell Beaker short heads
Corded Ware preferred stone : Bell Beaker copper
Corded Ware fought close distance with axes : Bell Beaker preferred arrows and daggers
Corded Ware blunt axes duels : Bell Beakers being knifers
Corded Ware burial men East-West with the head to the West, face to the South, if North-South, face to the right (East) : Bell Beaker burial men with their head to the North, feet to the South, face turned to the left (there are exceptions to this, like to the other points, but usually, the distinction holds).

The list could be prolonged, but there is reason to assume Bell Beakers want to distinguish themselves from the Corded Ware tradition. Probably the physical appearance, even if it developed by chance, was part of this socio-cultural development?
Basically by looking at a man from the distance, as soon as you could see how he looked, even without special garment, you would have been able to make the difference.

Finn
10-06-2020, 11:11 AM
I think you are mostly right, but that still could have affected the social and reproductive success, because even in very patriarchal societies there is oftentimes at least the tendency that "ugly" or just "less appealing" partners had to make a better price and offer. Like to balance out their obvious physical disadvantage. And having not the physical signal of "belonging and social dominance" is a direct issue for "a provider".This means a very important high status male could still get the most attractive and fertile young woman, but for others it could still make a difference to "look different". And like explained, the steep occiput seems to have become kind of a trademark, I see no other explanation as why they kept this trait in all Bell Beakers and those sticking to the tradition afterwards. Its like they cherished it more as a signal of "belonging". So someone looking different would have had the "outsiders", "commoners" or even "slave-look" for them probably. With the exact opposite in the Corded Ware competitors. Its also interesting that they did the opposite in many ways:
Corded Ware long : Bell Beaker short heads
Corded Ware preferred stone : Bell Beaker copper
Corded Ware fought close distance with axes : Bell Beaker preferred arrows and daggers
Corded Ware blunt axes duels : Bell Beakers being knifers
Corded Ware burial men East-West with the head to the West, face to the South, if North-South, face to the right (East) : Bell Beaker burial men with their head to the North, feet to the South, face turned to the left (there are exceptions to this, like to the other points, but usually, the distinction holds).

The list could be prolonged, but there is reason to assume Bell Beakers want to distinguish themselves from the Corded Ware tradition. Probably the physical appearance, even if it developed by chance, was part of this socio-cultural development?
Basically by looking at a man from the distance, as soon as you could see how he looked, even without special garment, you would have been able to make the difference.

Somehow this gives a more massive appearance.....
It's a combination of brachycephaly but also hypsicephaly!
Gerhardt (1976):40073

We can't look with the eyes of the Bell Beakers so what is preferred or not is unknown to us even strange. But the first impression stays massive. And with endogamy this phenotype could be spread within a few generations.

Dinarization has no direct genetic relation with genetics from a certain place (Balkans) it can occur everywhere. But it also correspondences also with elongation, with tallness, overgrown. Or not.... Indeed Riverman the Steppe pastoralist of Single Grave may have been also robust and tall (on average). But aren't the ones with such a 'Dinaric' phenotype even nowadays somewhat larger than average or is this humbug?

By the way C.S. Coon is may be not in every aspect a good a reliable source, but he explicit mentions the 'Dinarics' with regard to Lower Saxony (even Weser-Elbe) as present, in combination with some darker pigment ('As among the Fehmarners, however, there is a tendency for a shorter-statured, rounder-headed, smaller-headed, darker-pigmented, more frequently concave-nosed and more leptorrhine element to segregate itself. This type, which is Dinaric'). Again I don't know what his sources were in this respect and if this is reliable. But I guess it's not only Austria and Bayern and other Central European surroundings were Dinarization played a role.

Riverman
10-06-2020, 11:32 AM
Dinarization has no direct genetic relation with genetics from a certain place (Balkans) it can occur everywhere. But it also correspondences also with elongation, with tallness, overgrown. Or not.... Indeed Riverman the Steppe pastoralist of Single Grave may have been also robust and tall (on average). But aren't the ones with such a phenotype even nowadays somewhat larger than average or is this humbug?

The typical Dinarics are among or even the tallest Europeans, yes, but not all with that headshape! So the headshape (short-flat occiput-rather high) as such must be seen somewhat independently from height, because there are massive-tall and not so much specimen.


By the way C.S. Coon is may be not in every aspect a good a reliable source, but he explicit mentions the 'Dinarics' with regard to Lower Saxon (even Weser-Elbe) as present, in combination with some darker pigment ('As among the Fehmarners, however, there is a tendency for a shorter-statured, rounder-headed, smaller-headed, darker-pigmented, more frequently concave-nosed and more leptorrhine element to segregate itself. This type, which is Dinaric'). Again I don't know what his sources were in this respect and if this is reliable. But I guess it's not only Austria and Bayern and other Central European surroundings were Dinarization played a role.

Its also noteworthy where Bell Beakers survived the best and its indeed in the mountain valleys of Southern Germany, in groups like Adlerberg and Straubing, while, as I wrote earlier, in Unetice and succeeding cultures, this combination of traits largely disappeared and was heavily diluted. So the "Bavarian" and "Southern German" connection is very old and its even possible that it was, that way, introduced to the cisalpine in Italia and more Dinaric-Balkan regions. So there is somewhat of a potential link, yet the frequency drastically fell until the late Iron Age in most of their former strongholds. But then again, to explain it means a lot of speculation, I don't have the exact causalities proven nor does, to my knowledge, anybody else. There are a lot of things to consider, some of which nobody might think about right now, but will be proven with more genetic and especially GWAS studies.

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 12:05 PM
Finn do you score any Dutch/British beaker in your autosomal DNA or you are fully north Dutch like? I am asking because your flat occiput it is probably connected with BA admixture.

Riverman
10-06-2020, 12:08 PM
Finn do you score any Dutch/British beaker in your autosomal DNA or you are fully north Dutch like? I am asking because your flat occiput it is probably connected with BA admixture.

I don't think it works that way, because think about how few alles might determine headshape and how much of it is being used for ancestral analyses, even though its still a small fraction of the total genome. Basically that's why someone can look like a Swede but being Greek and a Sweed looking Greek...its those few decisive allels which determine the phenotype. So individuals which shift in phenotype might also shift, somewhat, on average, from their main population, but they don't have to or its just a small effect overall. Another question more important in this respect would be whether many relatives and neighbours from the home villages had the same phenotypical traits, or whether it just popped up by chance in one family again.

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 12:34 PM
I don't think it works that way, because think about how few alles might determine headshape and how much of it is being used for ancestral analyses, even though its still a small fraction of the total genome. Basically that's why someone can look like a Swede but being Greek and a Sweed looking Greek...its those few decisive allels which determine the phenotype. So individuals which shift in phenotype might also shift, somewhat, on average, from their main population, but they don't have to or its just a small effect overall. Another question more important in this respect would be whether many relatives and neighbours from the home villages had the same phenotypical traits, or whether it just popped up by chance in one family again.

Belenux people have BB genes(thought less compared to Brits and Irish). My point is that Nordic people rarely have this specific type of skull witch btw I don't agree that it can be found only among BB devired groups. Balkaners for example are not BB but they have such type of skull shape.

Riverman
10-06-2020, 12:43 PM
Belenux people have BB genes(thought less compared to Brits and Irish). My point is that Nordic people rarely have this specific type of skull witch btw I don't agree that it can be found only among BB devired groups. Balkaners for example are not BB but they have such type of skull shape.

No, that is a misunderstanding, I never wanted to say that it can only appear in BB derived people, which would of course be complete nonsense, because similar shapes even appear outside of Europe and outside of the West Eurasian variation with zero relationship to BB. What I meant is that exactly this widespread BB ancestry leads to BB-like shapes reappearing here and there again, but it means nothing for the individual's ancestry, its just random. I could mean something only if there is kind of "a cluster" with many family members and even neighbours, a whole region being shifted in this direction. And even then it could be caused by endogamy, drift or recent selection rather than ancient persistence.

Finn
10-06-2020, 12:48 PM
Finn do you score any Dutch/British beaker in your autosomal DNA or you are fully north Dutch like? I am asking because your flat occiput it is probably connected with BA admixture.

I have no other known ancestors than North Dutch annex border NW Germany.
But it's very clear that even with the recent Viking samples that come close to us, Finn Mom has a BB Lech in her top close matches! When I leave out the Vikings for me also. When I leave out the Vikings for Finn Mom this sample is even on place 3!!! Very anachronistic and remarkable. So close to and Germanics and BB.

https://www.mupload.nl/img/8pkqycwzsqf.47.25.png

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 12:49 PM
No, that is a misunderstanding, I never wanted to say that it can only appear in BB derived people, which would of course be complete nonsense, because similar shapes even appear outside of Europe and outside of the West Eurasian variation with zero relationship to BB. What I meant is that exactly this widespread BB ancestry leads to BB-like shapes reappearing here and there again, but it means nothing for the individual's ancestry, its just random. I could mean something only if there is kind of "a cluster" with many family members and even neighbours, a whole region being shifted in this direction. And even then it could be caused by endogamy, drift or recent selection rather than ancient persistence.

BTW is also wrong I think that BB especially Dutch/British were 100% brachy. Look at modern British and Irish people most of them have long skulls. So, in some way you might be correct and I would bet even environmental issues about the formation of our skull.

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 12:52 PM
I have no other known ancestors than North Dutch annex border NW Germany.
But it's very clear that even with the recent Viking samples that come close to us, Finn Mom has a BB Lech in her top close matches! When I leave out the Vikings for me also. When I leave out the Vikings for Finn Mom this sample is even on place 3!!! Very anachronistic and remarkable. So close to and Germanics and BB.

https://www.mupload.nl/img/8pkqycwzsqf.47.25.png

I see, do you know how much BB related autosomal the average Dutch gets? And in what areas is stronger?

Riverman
10-06-2020, 12:57 PM
BTW is also wrong I think that BB especially Dutch/British were 100% brachy. Look at modern British and Irish people most of them have long skulls. So, in some way you might be correct and I would bet even environmental issues but the formation of our skull.

They were not, there was variation, but the rise in frequency especially in the rich and moderate burials was just so steep, that its still a diagnostic signal. However, the change in skull shape occured AFTER the Bell Beaker dominance was broken and not everywhere the same way. Like those people which became diluted and lost the BB tradition had significantly lower frequencies. I always use Unetice, because its the main group in this respect. It wasn't all environmental, because you still had the obviously BB derived and mixed skulls. So I guess the BB created a combined effect of selection, including social selection and endogamy. As soon as this regime was broken and gene pool diluted, the trait dropped in frequency.

Finn
10-06-2020, 01:00 PM
I see, do you know how much BB related autosomal the average Dutch gets? And in what areas is stronger?

I don't know exactly, but I do know the area were my mother comes from was a TRB/SGC/BB hotspot.

And as we look to R1b 116, the 'Bell Beaker' marker is this still strong on the Veluvian area, just NE above the Rhine with some spread in the whole Northern area (except the most western part of Friesland which was depopulated in the fourth century).

https://www.mupload.nl/img/33kwgcclj00.png

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 01:04 PM
They were not, there was variation, but the rise in frequency especially in the rich and moderate burials was just so steep, that its still a diagnostic signal. However, the change in skull shape occured AFTER the Bell Beaker dominance was broken and not everywhere the same way. Like those people which became diluted and lost the BB tradition had significantly lower frequencies. I always use Unetice, because its the main group in this respect. It wasn't all environmental, because you still had the obviously BB derived and mixed skulls. So I guess the BB created a combined effect of selection, including social selection and endogamy. As soon as this regime was broken and gene pool diluted, the trait dropped in frequency.


I see. Its weird how the gene pool in british isles and Ireland didn't changed enough with the arrival of Celts and later Germanics. With exception south England and some related Celtic and also Germanic Markers their autosomal DNA didn't changed at all. This was not the situation in mainland Europe where BB affected badly by Celts and later Germanics and even Slavs.

Riverman
10-06-2020, 01:09 PM
I see. Its weird how the gene pool in british isles and Ireland didn't changed enough with the arrival of Celts and later Germanics. With exception south England and some related Celtic and also Germanic Markers their autosomal DNA didn't changed at all. This was not the situation in mainland Europe where BB affected badly but Celts and later Germanics and even Slavs.

We'll see. By the way, Unetice was not THAT different also if just looking at the autosomal profile, yet they had a completely different phenotype.

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 01:19 PM
I don't know exactly, nut I do know the area were my mother comes from was a TRB/SCG/BB hotspot.

And as we look to R1b 116, the 'Bell Beaker' marker is this still strong on the Veluvian area, just NE above the Rhine with some spread in the whole Northern area (except the most western part of Friesland which was depopulated in the fourth century).

https://www.mupload.nl/img/33kwgcclj00.png

I think the whole Benelux and even some parts of northwest Germany have some BB genetic profile. Thought it is hard to separate it from the Celto-Germanic genes. I think also the Belgian dialect was a BB related dialect of IE origins but neither Germanic or Celtic. The northwestblock is the answer i would say.

rikvdb
10-06-2020, 01:22 PM
I think the whole Benelux and even some parts of northwest Germany have some BB genetic profile. Thought it is hard to separate it from the Celto-Germanic genes. I think also the Belgian dialect was a BB related dialect of IE origins but neither Germanic or Celtic. The northwestblock is the answer i would say.

As a Belgian, I have heard several times that the Flemish accent is partially influenced by an extinct type of French like (or closely related to) Piccardian language.

Finn
10-06-2020, 01:59 PM
I think the whole Benelux and even some parts of northwest Germany have some BB genetic profile. Thought it is hard to separate it from the Celto-Germanic genes. I think also the Belgian dialect was a BB related dialect of IE origins but neither Germanic or Celtic. The northwestblock is the answer i would say.

Yes I think the BB are constitutional (substrate) for both Islands Celts and North Sea Germans.....I don't know what the relationship is with the Belgians. The old BB hotspot laid all above the Rhine not beneath.

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 02:01 PM
Yes I think the BB are constitutional (substrate) for both Islands Celts and North Sea Germans.....I don't know what the relationship is with the Belgians. The old BB hotspot laid all above the Rhine not beneath.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Belgian_language

Finn
10-06-2020, 02:10 PM
I see, do you know how much BB related autosomal the average Dutch gets? And in what areas is stronger?

Compare the two maps through the eye lashes Johnny, one with the Beaker settelments, and one with modern spread of Rb S116......

I don't think I'm drunk ;)

https://www.mupload.nl/img/m00lordawsje.04.06.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/hofvhuy66.png

Veluvian on top (area NE of the Center) but also in Drenthe (more NE wards), but in Drenthe the Chauken/ Saxons came in much more heavy than on the Veluwe so little bit more moderate. But that's my educated guess. My view for a better one.

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 02:34 PM
Nice map. We need samples from Jastford and Northwest block to understand better Germanic genetics. I will agree with you Finn that Northsea Germanics have adopted a related BB admixture in their autosomal hence their southerness compared to Nordic/Scandinavian people. I think NE Netherlands and NW Germany was a hotspot of BB who eventually assilimated to Franks and to various germanic people.

Finn
10-06-2020, 02:38 PM
Nice map. We need samples from Jastford and Northwest block to understand better Germanic genetics. I will agree with you Finn that Northsea Germanics have adopted a related BB admixture in their autosomal hence their southerness compared to Nordic/Scandinavian people. I think NE Netherlands and NW Germany was a hotspot of BB who eventually assilimated to Franks and to various germanic people.

You be suprised....I plot in the G25 NW Europe right on the grandma of Evon! And Bergen is quite Nordic to me.

Finn
10-06-2020, 02:39 PM
Nice map. We need samples from Jastford and Northwest block to understand better Germanic genetics. I will agree with you Finn that Northsea Germanics have adopted a related BB admixture in their autosomal hence their southerness compared to Nordic/Scandinavian people. I think NE Netherlands and NW Germany was a hotspot of BB who eventually assilimated to Franks and to various germanic people.

I see the Bavarian samples as Jastorf ones, they equal Elb Germans.

alan
10-06-2020, 02:47 PM
Did someone not find that GAC skulls, despite them being farmers, did have a significant amount in common with bell beakers. Hard to ignore that when GAC is one of the prime suspects for the non-steppe component in bell beaker. GAC of course were far far more light pigmented than any other contemporary group. So, do some of the bell beaker traits not likely derive from a particularly big GAC rounder headed fair pigmented component in their genetic makeup combined with a tall strong darker pigmented narrower skulled steppe type? In contrast (perhaps - I am not actually sure about this) where steppe people mixed with farmer groups with more typical farmer skulls (say TRB in the north and Balkans farmers in the SE) the outcome was different.

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 02:48 PM
You be suprised....I plot in the G25 NW Europe right on the grandma of Evon! And Bergen is quite Nordic to me.

Nice. I know that your autosomal is very Nordic(but your skull is not :)��).

Yes Jastorf probably had similar autosomal with the Bavarian sample.

Finn
10-06-2020, 02:51 PM
Nice. I know that your autosomal is very Nordic(but your skull is not :)��).

Yes Jastorf probably had similar autosomal with the Bavarian sample.

May be it's time to leave the stereotype behind us ;)

Johnny ola
10-06-2020, 02:52 PM
May be it's time to leave the stereotype behind us ;)

Arjen Robben agrees B)

Riverman
10-06-2020, 02:53 PM
Nice. I know that your autosomal is very Nordic(but your skull is not :)��).

Yes Jastorf probably had similar autosomal with the Bavarian sample.

Nordic and Northern is not the same, because its phenotype vs. geographical origin and genetic profle. Like some South West Norwegians can be by far more Northern shifted genetically, yet they might be basically looking more like many Bavarians do as well. The same was true in ancient times already, because the phenotype being determined by a limited number of allels, drift and selection. Especially in prehistoric times the distribution might have been even more skewed, because by everything we have so far, Unetice looks more modern Northern European both genetically and phenotype-wise than many inhabitants of Scandinavia at the same time.

Finn
10-06-2020, 02:54 PM
Did someone not find that GAC skulls, despite them being farmers, did have a significant amount in common with bell beakers. Hard to ignore that when GAC is one of the prime suspects for the non-steppe component in bell beaker. GAC of course were far far more light pigmented than any other contemporary group. So, do some of the bell beaker traits not likely derive from a particularly big GAC rounder headed fair pigmented component in their genetic makeup combined with a tall strong darker pigmented narrower skulled steppe type? In contrast (perhaps - I am not actually sure about this) where steppe people mixed with farmer groups with more typical farmer skulls (say TRB in the north and Balkans farmers in the SE) the outcome was different.

Could be the case but TRB-West had a reverse kind of HG ve EEf compared to Poland, 60-70% HG and 30-40% EEF, Poland 80% EEF-20% HG (just from memory).
A mixture of SGC (man) and TRB (woman)...into BB.... is likely. Only the Ertebölle HG types were kind of small and had very sloping heads and big jaws....don't see the connection with Dinarization yet....

Finn
10-06-2020, 02:58 PM
Arjen Robben agrees B)


yeah yeah off topic he is the regional hero here....some fans cried because he is back in the home club, but weren't the BB very robust (no blessures ;) ROFLOL

alan
10-06-2020, 06:56 PM
I suspect the flattening of the rear skull happens when a group with a genetic trend for skulls to be softer in the early phase meet a cradling tradition. Perhaps exacerbated by a group having larger heavier skulls thus making it more likely to happen to a baby. There may be an advantage to skulls remaining softer for longer relating to brain development. Intelligence? https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/big-headed-babies-are-likely-earn-university-degrees-scientists-suggest-a7315826.html

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190121103406.htm

Finn
10-07-2020, 04:05 PM
I suspect the flattening of the rear skull happens when a group with a genetic trend for skulls to be softer in the early phase meet a cradling tradition. Perhaps exacerbated by a group having larger heavier skulls thus making it more likely to happen to a baby. There may be an advantage to skulls remaining softer for longer relating to brain development. Intelligence? https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/big-headed-babies-are-likely-earn-university-degrees-scientists-suggest-a7315826.html

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190121103406.htm

Thanks Alan I guess you got a point there. Because in the case of Dinarization there is not only brachecephaly but als a hypsicranic development.
In the most severe case which is an anomaly we see this in more extreme way this:

APERT'S syndrome (S. ACROCEPHALOSYNDACTYLY)
- autosomal dominant or sporadic BRACHYTURRICEPHALY = BRACHYCEPHALY + TURRICEPHALY, s.
TURMSCHÄDEL* = short and high skull; prominent forehead and flat occiput.

The result of this, and this is also the case with more ore less 'normal' Dinarized cases this leads to this:

intracranial volumes tend to be higher than normal!

http://www.neurosurgeryresident.net/Dev.%20Developmental%20anomalies/Dev9.%20Cranial%20&%20Vertebral%20Anomalies.pdf

So Dinarization leads to a bigger brain volume.....

Rokus has spent also a blog on this issue. He associates Dinarization with "overall brain shrinkage and an increased cerebellum". So a shrink in stead of more volume.
Maybe he not taken in account that Dinarazation along the Bell Beaker has lead to more brainvolume (besides an increased cerebellum?).
https://rokus01.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/evolutionary-tales-behind-otzis-mesocephalic-skull/

Should make sense because this Dinarization must have had an evolutionary advantage, otherwise how could they spread all over the place?

So in the end not 'dumb' ;) massive big heads but bright 'eggheads' ??:biggrin1:

Riverman
10-07-2020, 04:25 PM
Thanks Alan I guess you got a point there. Because in the case of Dinarization there is not only brachecephaly but als a hypsicranic development.
In the most severe case which is an anomaly we see this in more extreme way this:

The result of this, and this is also the case with more ore less 'normal' Dinarized cases this leads to this:

http://www.neurosurgeryresident.net/Dev.%20Developmental%20anomalies/Dev9.%20Cranial%20&%20Vertebral%20Anomalies.pdf

So Dinarization leads to a bigger brain volume.....

Rokus has spent also a blog on this issue. He associates Dinarization with "overall brain shrinkage and an increased cerebellum". So a shrink in stead of more volume.
Maybe he not taken in account that Dinarazation along the Bell Beaker has lead to more brainvolume (besides an increased cerebellum?).
https://rokus01.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/evolutionary-tales-behind-otzis-mesocephalic-skull/

Should make sense because this Dinarization must have had an evolutionary advantage, otherwise how could they spread all over the place?

So in the end not 'dumb' ;) massive big heads but bright 'eggheads' ??:biggrin1:

Dinarization does not increase brain volume at all. Not absolutely and not relatively (to height and weight). You always have compare them to the Northern European and steppe people, in comparison to those, the brain volume is the same or lower. What Dinarisation does instead, is to create a maximum volume with a minimum surface. So it, potentially, saves skull bone material. To get a skull with the same brain volume and resilience, you need more surface with a longhead vs. a roundhead. This means if the nutrition would have been not sufficient and especially the intake of calcium low, or anything along these lines, the reduced surface would have been a minimal saving without quality losses in density and volume.
Not saying that this is the cause for the process, but talking about brain volume and skull structure, this is the correlation, nothing else. Individually people with long heads can have larger/smaller brain volume or those with short heads as well, its independent. That's totally independent from that problem. But the structural change affects the whole skull, in every aspect, the chewing muscles, stability and surface area in particular. Dolichocephals have as a tendency worldwide larger teeth, stronger chewing muscles and harder skull. That's not true for small, gracile Mediterraneans, but many other variants. That there was a problem with calcium and vitamin D levles is known, also from early farmers, and there might have been different strategies to adapt to this. In the North the best adaptive strategy seem to have been depigmentation and lactase persistence, but this was not fully evolved when the Bell Beakers spread (!). Its interesting that with the shift towards this optimal adaptation brachycephalisation largely disappeared again from the North. This was of course primarily due to the influx of new people and the inheritance pattern, but probably at least a small part can be attributed to this too, who knows...

So there are many possible relationships, but I think there is another one, which however goes more for the typical specimen, which is hormonal-growth related. The most extreme forms of Dinarization almost always have akromegaloid tendencies, but this is not true at all for all people with this headshape, which can be small and gracile people. Again, a lot of speculation and little proof so far. Some facts are known, but what was really causative is unknown. Only new data and research, especially GWAS can help.

Finn
10-07-2020, 04:55 PM
Dinarization does not increase brain volume at all. Not absolutely and not relatively (to height and weight). You always have compare them to the Northern European and steppe people, in comparison to those, the brain volume is the same or lower. What Dinarisation does instead, is to create a maximum volume with a minimum surface. So it, potentially, saves skull bone material. To get a skull with the same brain volume and resilience, you need more surface with a longhead vs. a roundhead. This means if the nutrition would have been not sufficient and especially the intake of calcium low, or anything along these lines, the reduced surface would have been a minimal saving without quality losses in density and volume.
Not saying that this is the cause for the process, but talking about brain volume and skull structure, this is the correlation, nothing else. Individually people with long heads can have larger/smaller brain volume or those with short heads as well, its independent. That's totally independent from that problem. But the structural change affects the whole skull, in every aspect, the chewing muscles, stability and surface area in particular. Dolichocephals have as a tendency worldwide larger teeth, stronger chewing muscles and harder skull. That's not true for small, gracile Mediterraneans, but many other variants. That there was a problem with calcium and vitamin D levles is known, also from early farmers, and there might have been different strategies to adapt to this. In the North the best adaptive strategy seem to have been depigmentation and lactase persistence, but this was not fully evolved when the Bell Beakers spread (!). Its interesting that with the shift towards this optimal adaptation brachycephalisation largely disappeared again from the North. This was of course primarily due to the influx of new people and the inheritance pattern, but probably at least a small part can be attributed to this too, who knows...

So there are many possible relationships, but I think there is another one, which however goes more for the typical specimen, which is hormonal-growth related. The most extreme forms of Dinarization almost always have akromegaloid tendencies, but this is not true at all for all people with this headshape, which can be small and gracile people. Again, a lot of speculation and little proof so far. Some facts are known, but what was really causative is unknown. Only new data and research, especially GWAS can help.

If this is the case, why does extreme kind of Dinarization does create more volume?

From the paper (^^^)

intracranial volumes tend to be higher than normal! (but 45% patients have intracranial
hypertension)


?

Riverman
10-07-2020, 05:22 PM
If this is the case, why does extreme kind of Dinarization does create more volume?

From the paper (^^^)


?

;)

Intracranial volume ≠ brain volume and size. This should be obvious, especially if comparing with other pathological conditions like hydrocephalus. Also I was speaking about normal variation and averages.

Finn
10-07-2020, 05:34 PM
;)

Intracranial volume ≠ brain volume and size. This should be obvious, especially if comparing with other pathological conditions like hydrocephalus. Also I was speaking about normal variation and averages.

There is a correlation between intracranial volume and brain volume, https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Relation-Between-Total-Intracranial-Volume-and-Whole-Brain-Volume-in-28-Normal-Subjects_fig1_14219114

And Apert's syndrome is of course an anomaly but it gives in extremity what is more moderate in 'usual' Dinarization the case. So in usual Dinarization the increase in volume will be not that extreme.

Riverman
10-07-2020, 05:55 PM
There is a correlation between intracranial volume and brain volume, https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Relation-Between-Total-Intracranial-Volume-and-Whole-Brain-Volume-in-28-Normal-Subjects_fig1_14219114

And Apert's syndrome is of course an anomaly but it gives in extremity what is more moderate in 'usual' Dinarization the case. So in usual Dinarization the increase in volume will be not that extreme.

Apert's syndrom is a complex condition and affects many aspects of the craniofacial structures. I wouldn't even compare it with normal Dinarization. Its like comparing Down syndrome with East Asians, the similarity is very superficial in both cases. Obviously in normally developed heads there is a clear correlatoin between intracranial volume and brain size, sure. However, the really important aspect is that a smaller Dinaric head, by measurments, can still have the same intracranial volume as a dolichocephal with slightly larger measurements, simply because of the more globular cranial shape. This doesn't tell you anything who got a bigger brain, but its important to keep in mind.

Finn
10-07-2020, 06:10 PM
Apert's syndrom is a complex condition and affects many aspects of the craniofacial structures. I wouldn't even compare it with normal Dinarization. Its like comparing Down syndrome with East Asians, the similarity is very superficial in both cases. Obviously in normally developed heads there is a clear correlatoin between intracranial volume and brain size, sure. However, the really important aspect is that a smaller Dinaric head, by measurments, can still have the same intracranial volume as a dolichocephal with slightly larger measurements, simply because of the more globular cranial shape. This doesn't tell you anything who got a bigger brain, but its important to keep in mind.

Wiseguy contra wiseguy?:biggrin1:

What I said is not like Down comparing with East Asian, that's pathetic Riverman!

Of course Apert syndrome is an anomaly, with much complications, agree but 'short and high skull; prominent forehead and flat occiput.' is absolutely likewise....so will be the effect on the brain volume (but in 'usual' Dinaric less extreme).

May be just may be I have a point here Riverman ;)

davit
10-08-2020, 01:57 AM
Yes, there were actually some at least approaching similar proportions and many of the Eastern European specimen were also hypermorphic with quite large facial measurements. So its not totally new by any means, but what makes Bell Beakers so special is that they were among the first with a very high frequency, especially in the core group of wealthy and medium burials.


Is the large dimensions from their ANE/WHG ancestry or CHG?

Riverman
10-08-2020, 09:13 AM
Is the large dimensions from their ANE/WHG ancestry or CHG?

The ANE were the tallest and most robust guys around. They were well-fed mammuth hunters which adapted to the cold by increasing size and not reducing extremities. This is the best way to do it, but there are breaking points, when its no longer sustainable: If it gets extremely cold and the protection doesn't suffice to withstand it, or if the nutrition gets worse, which is particularly important and potentially deadly in an extremely cold environment. In my opinion a lot of the ANE dispersals can be attributed to first the LGM, which they tried to evade, and then the megafauna and mammuth steppe disappearing, from which they lived a good life and had a high level selection environment and were, overall, well-fed. CHG got already influenced by the ANE influx before, like I said, comparing Dzudzuana and then CHG, its apparent and in between these two was the LGM as the first major push factor for ANE. The EHG moved west and settled around the Russian river systems, concentrating on hunting game and especially fishing. Until they came first into contact with half-Neolitized CHG people and then the Western Neolithic which expanded onto the steppe and into the river systems.
But if you look at the EHG remains, these were very massively and robust built individuals ("hypermorphic"). Actually Yamanya individuals are, in comparison, more often refined and gracile, most likely both due to selection and admixture with less robust CHG and Western Neolithic specimen combined. This trend accelerates with Corded Ware. So there is a decrease of extremely robust built individuals from EHG -> Yamnaya -> Corded Ware -> Bronze Age. Bell Beakers fit into this for the most part, just doing it in a different way.

Finn
10-08-2020, 10:13 AM
The ANE were the tallest and most robust guys around. They were well-fed mammuth hunters which adapted to the cold by increasing size and not reducing extremities. This is the best way to do it, but there are breaking points, when its no longer sustainable: If it gets extremely cold and the protection doesn't suffice to withstand it, or if the nutrition gets worse, which is particularly important and potentially deadly in an extremely cold environment. In my opinion a lot of the ANE dispersals can be attributed to first the LGM, which they tried to evade, and then the megafauna and mammuth steppe disappearing, from which they lived a good life and had a high level selection environment and were, overall, well-fed. CHG got already influenced by the ANE influx before, like I said, comparing Dzudzuana and then CHG, its apparent and in between these two was the LGM as the first major push factor for ANE. The EHG moved west and settled around the Russian river systems, concentrating on hunting game and especially fishing. Until they came first into contact with half-Neolitized CHG people and then the Western Neolithic which expanded onto the steppe and into the river systems.
But if you look at the EHG remains, these were very massively and robust built individuals ("hypermorphic"). Actually Yamanya individuals are, in comparison, more often refined and gracile, most likely both due to selection and admixture with less robust CHG and Western Neolithic specimen combined. This trend accelerates with Corded Ware. So there is a decrease of extremely robust built individuals from EHG -> Yamnaya -> Corded Ware -> Bronze Age. Bell Beakers fit into this for the most part, just doing it in a different way.

An add when you look at the Rhenish/Dutch Beakers they fished in the following gene-pool: TRB_West and Single Grave Culture (CW). TRB-West were 60-70% Ertebølle like (see also Blatterhöhle MN). Ertebølle types (HG) were relative small, but robust, sloping heads and big jaws. The SGC will be according Riverman has described. Gerhardt used the words: 'robust doliomorphics'.

Johnny ola
10-08-2020, 10:50 AM
An add when you look at the Rhenish/Dutch Beakers they fished in the following gene-pool: TRB_West and Single Grave Culture (CW). TRB-West were 60-70% Ertebølle like (see also Blatterhöhle MN). Ertebølle types (HG) were relative small, but robust, sloping heads and big jaws. The SGC will be according Riverman has described. Gerhardt used the words: 'robust doliomorphics'.

Johan cruyff was something similar(Dutch BB+Robust Nordic) thought.

Finn
10-08-2020, 11:36 AM
Johan cruyff was something similar(Dutch BB+Robust Nordic) thought.

I don't know let's not make this posting apricity like ;)

davit
10-08-2020, 02:27 PM
The ANE were the tallest and most robust guys around. They were well-fed mammuth hunters which adapted to the cold by increasing size and not reducing extremities. This is the best way to do it, but there are breaking points, when its no longer sustainable: If it gets extremely cold and the protection doesn't suffice to withstand it, or if the nutrition gets worse, which is particularly important and potentially deadly in an extremely cold environment. In my opinion a lot of the ANE dispersals can be attributed to first the LGM, which they tried to evade, and then the megafauna and mammuth steppe disappearing, from which they lived a good life and had a high level selection environment and were, overall, well-fed. CHG got already influenced by the ANE influx before, like I said, comparing Dzudzuana and then CHG, its apparent and in between these two was the LGM as the first major push factor for ANE. The EHG moved west and settled around the Russian river systems, concentrating on hunting game and especially fishing. Until they came first into contact with half-Neolitized CHG people and then the Western Neolithic which expanded onto the steppe and into the river systems.
But if you look at the EHG remains, these were very massively and robust built individuals ("hypermorphic"). Actually Yamanya individuals are, in comparison, more often refined and gracile, most likely both due to selection and admixture with less robust CHG and Western Neolithic specimen combined. This trend accelerates with Corded Ware. So there is a decrease of extremely robust built individuals from EHG -> Yamnaya -> Corded Ware -> Bronze Age. Bell Beakers fit into this for the most part, just doing it in a different way.

Interesting.

-Was ANE more robust than WHG?
-If ANE was robust and tall why are Amerindian populations generally not tall and robust, at least not tall?
-Also is there a reason SE Asian or NE Asian lineages were able to replace the early paternal lineages of ANE? Is that where the robustness comes from or is robustness common to all hunter gatherers in cold climates?

Riverman
10-08-2020, 02:50 PM
Interesting.

-Was ANE more robust than WHG?

They were certainly taller.


-If ANE was robust and tall why are Amerindian populations generally not tall and robust, at least not tall?

Only the maize farmers and tropical Indians are short and I would attribute that to secondary size reduction. The woodland Indians and the more cold adapted Southern American foragers were both fairly tall and robust overall. Additionally, they mixed with East Asians and went through a cold adaptation phase the Caucasoid branch of ANE avoided by evading the hardest spots of the LGM and/or following large mammals which could feed them well.


-Also is there a reason SE Asian or NE Asian lineages were able to replace the early paternal lineages of ANE? Is that where the robustness comes from or is robustness common to all hunter gatherers in cold climates?

Most hunter gatherers are more robust actually, especially on the skull. But not necessarily tall, that's not the same thing. The main reason for ANE being replaced in the East is, in my opinion, that they were cut off from the main body of West Eurasians and had to retreat to a fairly limited refuge during the LGM. While they were in part hiding out there and at the same time moving on to America, which was the much better spot to be in at that time and afterwards, the East Asians developed on into the full fledged Mongoloid type. And these modern East Asians had real population centres and a successful adaptation. When, after the LGM, they moved out of their secluded LGM centre, the fringe groups had practically no chance to stand the pressure, both because of the numbers and level the Mongoloid core had reached by that time. This is why you have the large scale replacement from East Siberia, over Japan, to South East Asia by the same core group of people, starting before the Neolithic, but getting full pace with the Neolithic transition, in which the North Chinese river people controlled one, if not the, most important population centre in human history, the Hwangho. Practically everything is dwarfed in comparison, this is one of the primary populatoin centres for biological and cultural development of mankind. Hunter gatherers from Eastern Siberia needed to be highly specialised horse warriors to stand a chance, and this too was done - taught by incoming Indo-Europeans, by the Turko-Mongols on the Eastern steppe primarily.
These are the two big opportunities in East Asia: Control the Eastern steppe and become horse warriors or controlling the big river system of the Hwangho and expanding a farmer civilisation. Those people which managed to do that were successful, the others were eventually replaced or will be in the near future. This is of course also a numbers game, like always.

Finn
10-08-2020, 03:30 PM
Interesting.

-Was ANE more robust than WHG?
-If ANE was robust and tall why are Amerindian populations generally not tall and robust, at least not tall?
-Also is there a reason SE Asian or NE Asian lineages were able to replace the early paternal lineages of ANE? Is that where the robustness comes from or is robustness common to all hunter gatherers in cold climates?

I don't know if you can fully compare WHG with Ertebølle HG (that is dominant in TRB West). I found this on the web:


They were not very tall, often, but not always, strongly built with solid bones. Measurements have shown that the average height for men was 166 cm and for women 154 cm.


That means long skull with sloping forehead, prominent eyebrow-ridges and nasal bridge, slightly protruding and powerful jaws with strong jaw muscles.


I see by no means a connection with our topic the BB steephead...on the contrary! So I think it's a development out of some kind of SGC 'clan'.

Riverman
10-08-2020, 03:34 PM
I see by no means a connection with our topic the BB steephead,,,,on the contrary! So I think it's some kind development out of some kind of SGC 'clan'.

Do you have any descriptions of the Paris Basin Neolithics or those from Michelsberg? One thing which must be kept in mind, is the extremely high evaluation of archery in Bell Beakers, which is very untypical for Corded Ware. This can't be just attributed to the increased usage of copper, there is more to it. So an interesting point to raise is, which people close to a BB centre had a tradition of evolved archery? I heard from hearsay once possibly to the West, in France? Or probably from the South East? I really doubt that was coming from SGC, this was, like some aspects of the physical appearance and culture in general, something else. But I'm unable to pin it down...

Finn
10-08-2020, 03:43 PM
Do you have any descriptions of the Paris Basin Neolithics or those from Michelsberg? One thing which must be kept in mind, is the extremely high evaluation of archery in Bell Beakers, which is very untypical for Corded Ware. This can't be just attributed to the increased usage of copper, there is more to it. So an interesting point to raise is, which people close to a BB centre had a tradition of evolved archery? I heard from hearsay once possibly to the West, in France? Or probably from the South East? I really doubt that was coming from SGC, this was, like some aspects of the physical appearance and culture in general, something else. But I'm unable to pin it down...

What is striking is that in the Dutch and NW Germanic context there is not so much o connection with Michelsberg I guess. About 3400 BC the "Tiefstich TRB" spread all over Northern Germany and Northern Netherlands .

https://adnaera.com/2018/09/09/a-first-and-intriguing-glimpse-at-trb-west-group-adna/

The 'assemblage' of the Beakers was in this area:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/4vrq61bnp0.png

Just out of reach Michelsberg:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelsberg_culture#/media/File:Michelsberg_culture.jpg

Finn
10-08-2020, 04:04 PM
Do you have any descriptions of the Paris Basin Neolithics or those from Michelsberg? One thing which must be kept in mind, is the extremely high evaluation of archery in Bell Beakers, which is very untypical for Corded Ware. This can't be just attributed to the increased usage of copper, there is more to it. So an interesting point to raise is, which people close to a BB centre had a tradition of evolved archery? I heard from hearsay once possibly to the West, in France? Or probably from the South East? I really doubt that was coming from SGC, this was, like some aspects of the physical appearance and culture in general, something else. But I'm unable to pin it down...

In this respect I think we must aim at the Pro Truding Foot Beaker:

https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/11/interesting-corded-ware-grave.html

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100351219

rikvdb
10-08-2020, 04:07 PM
Shouldn't we consider more recent migrations to explain the occurrence of "Dinaric" traits amongst the populations of Europe, rather than going back several millennia?

Riverman
10-08-2020, 04:13 PM
What is striking is that in the Dutch and NW Germanic context there is not so much o connection with Michelsberg I guess. About 3400 BC the "Tiefstich TRB" spread all over Northern Germany and Northern Netherlands .

https://adnaera.com/2018/09/09/a-first-and-intriguing-glimpse-at-trb-west-group-adna/

The 'assemblage' of the Beakers was in this area:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/4vrq61bnp0.png

Just out of reach Michelsberg:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelsberg_culture#/media/File:Michelsberg_culture.jpg

I just mention it because the Michelsberger were special and had increased WHG ancestry. Also, from the Brunel paper:

As individuals sampled in the Paris Basin around this period are lacking in our dataset, the hypothesis that places the origin of the Michelsberg into the contact of the Chasséen culture, originating from southern France, and groups from the Paris Basin such as the Cerny culture (Jeunesse et al. 1998), supported by the conclusions of Beau et al. 2017 on the neighboring site of Gougenheim (Beau et al. 2017), remains unsolved.

The Cerny Culture seem to have had cherished archery:


About 100 of these graves are known today, 20 of which yielded flint arrowheads. Several modes of deposit could be identified for these arrowheads: unhafted arrowheads included in a container placed in the grave; several arrows placed next to each other beside the body; or a quiver full of arrows placed on the dead body. These varied situations might have had different meanings. Arrowheads are directly linked to hunting, and imply the use of a bow and arrows. However other artefacts might also be less directly related to hunting equipment. This is the case of the enigmatic «Eiffel towers», bone objects that might have been used as spear tips. It is not possible to ascertain whether the equipment deposited in the grave was the personal belonging of the deceased. Indeed, in several cases - graves of very young children, a person handicapped by an elbow malformation - the individual could not have made use of a bow. The arrows themselves are often too few to constitute a real hunting kit, and sometimes too «precious» to be used as mundane ammunition. The association between arrows and certain individuals is above all a matter of display: one must not jump to the conclusion that hunting was the main activity of all individuals whose grave yielded arrowheads. The status (or function) of hunter was first and foremost a status (or function) that these individuals held in death.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289048795_Cerny_hunters


Shouldn't we consider more recent migrations to explain the occurrence of "Dinaric" traits amongst the populations of Europe, rather than going back several millennia?

No, because the "Dinaric" traits are regional to Europe and persisted since Bell Beakers and did never fully disappear ever since. This is a regional evolutionary trend. Of course, this doesn't mean that other more West Asian influences could have come in or produce similar phenotypes, but for most of Europe this is not important, whereas the regional Dinaric tradition is.

Finn
10-08-2020, 04:19 PM
Shouldn't we consider more recent migrations to explain the occurrence of "Dinaric" traits amongst the populations of Europe, rather than going back several millennia?

In the 'assemblage' area of the Rhenish/Dutch Beakers there were 'only' two clear migration movements 3400 BC TRB/Funnelbeakers, 2800 BC Single Grave Culture/Steppe Pastoralist...c'est ca.

rikvdb
10-08-2020, 04:23 PM
I just mention it because the Michelsberger were special and had increased WHG ancestry. Also, from the Brunel paper:


The Cerny Culture seem to have had cherished archery:



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289048795_Cerny_hunters



No, because the "Dinaric" traits are regional to Europe and persisted since Bell Beakers and did never fully disappear ever since. This is a regional evolutionary trend. Of course, this doesn't mean that other more West Asian influences could have come in or produce similar phenotypes, but for most of Europe this is not important, whereas the regional Dinaric tradition is.

I forgot to add "admixture" to this. I have been told that steep heads and downward pointing noses are because of an admixture where a big European proportioned nose tries to fit a small (Central/West) Asiatic proportioned face.
At least this seems to be the case with Alföld-type traits and so called West Turanid types. I don't know if they are related to the other Dinaric types.

Finn
10-08-2020, 04:28 PM
I just mention it because the Michelsberger were special and had increased WHG ancestry. Also, from the Brunel paper:


The Cerny Culture seem to have had cherished archery:



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289048795_Cerny_hunters



The BB package can be derived from the area you described .....but that are 'pots' not 'people'.


The argument that the ultimate origin of the Bell Beaker pot, the irreducible element of the Bell Beaker Set, was in the Rhineland and specifically the Netherlands, is based on tracing its development from the earlier and smaller beakers of the Single Grave Culture; the so-called ‘Dutch model.’ These smaller beakers had a protruding base (the so-called ‘protruding foot beakers’) and their upper body was decorated with impressed cord. Changes in the size and shape of these beakers and the application of the cord decoration to all of the pot led to the appearance of so-called All-Over-Ornamented beaker (AOO). These were usually All-Over-Cord decorated (AOC). In the Dutch model it is argued that the ‘Maritime’ beaker, with its impressed decoration arranged
in alternate horizontal zones of chevron or herringbone bands, was the first ‘true’ Bell Beaker and that it developed from All-Over-Ornamented beakers, even though Maritime beakers are rare in the Low Countries. As we shall see, this interpretation has been particularly influential in Britain, even though doubts about it have been expressed for some time (e.g. Case 1993, 248).

https://www.academia.edu/24957136/THE_ARRIVAL_OF_THE_BELL_BEAKER_SET_IN_BRITAIN_AND_ IRELAND

Riverman
10-08-2020, 04:32 PM
I forgot to add "admixture" to this. I have been told that steep heads and downward pointing noses are because of an admixture where a big European proportioned nose tries to fit a small (Central/West) Asiatic proportioned face.
At least this seems to be the case with Alföld-type traits and so called West Turanid types. I don't know if they are related to the other Dinaric types.

What's correct is, in my opinion, that the typical Dinaric craniofacial characteristics, especially the more pronounced ones, point rather to a reduction of the chewing apparatus and teeth. This can be either because of an independent evolutionary trend, which is Dinarization, or similar results can be due to a mixture event like you describe it. That's why you can get "pseudo-Dinaric" facial impressions from everywhere. But looking at it from a higher perspective, at the bigger picture, that's not the reason for the spread, the reason is selection. So you are basically right, but it doesn't change about what we're talked about. Its however certainly possible that a mixture event caused a harmonisation process resulting in the typical features. This is why I'd say that Bell Beakers can't be explained from a SGC tradition without any other input that easily. Neither physically nor culturally. So we have to look at the neighbours which might have contributed, both at the physical remains, the artefacts and culture, but of course also the genetics. The Cerny group might prove to be interesting imho. Because if BB really come from the North at all, this is where I would look at.


The BB package can be derived from the area you described .....but that are 'pots' not 'people'.

This is what I doubt. The BB are not exclusively SGC derived, no way. It doesn't work out genetically and it doesn't work culturally. Imho. But let's see what the future results will reveal to us. :)

Finn
10-08-2020, 04:38 PM
I forgot to add "admixture" to this. I have been told that steep heads and downward pointing noses are because of an admixture where a big European proportioned nose tries to fit a small (Central/West) Asiatic proportioned face.
At least this seems to be the case with Alföld-type traits and so called West Turanid types. I don't know if they are related to the other Dinaric types.

I think we must not concentrate on introducing old labels here like Tunarid and Borreby and a bunch of such like outdated stuff.

The Bell Beaker steephead is a phenotype description that is as such without discussion (regarding the Bell Beakers), it's a regional 'development' not some kind of Asiatic offshoot, so let's concentrate on that!

Finn
10-08-2020, 04:43 PM
What's correct is, in my opinion, that the typical Dinaric craniofacial characteristics, especially the more pronounced ones, point rather to a reduction of the chewing apparatus and teeth. This can be either because of an independent evolutionary trend, which is Dinarization, or similar results can be due to a mixture event like you describe it. That's why you can get "pseudo-Dinaric" facial impressions from everywhere. But looking at it from a higher perspective, at the bigger picture, that's not the reason for the spread, the reason is selection. So you are basically right, but it doesn't change about what we're talked about. Its however certainly possible that a mixture event caused a harmonisation process resulting in the typical features. This is why I'd say that Bell Beakers can't be explained from a SGC tradition without any other input that easily. Neither physically nor culturally. So we have to look at the neighbours which might have contributed, both at the physical remains, the artefacts and culture, but of course also the genetics. The Cerny group might prove to be interesting imho. Because if BB really come from the North at all, this is where I would look at.



This is what I doubt. The BB are not exclusively SGC derived, no way. It doesn't work out genetically and it doesn't work culturally. Imho. But let's see what the future results will reveal to us. :)

I guess Davidski is right:


The Dutch Beakers don't exactly sit between the Corded Ware and the other Beaker samples, but generally at the apex of their clusters, suggesting to me that they're not a mixture between Corded Ware and one or more of the other Beaker groups, but rather, as per my recent argumentation, a genetically homogeneous, relatively unique and thus long-standing Corded Ware-related population that may have contributed significant gene flow to the other Beaker groups.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/dutch-beakers-like-no-other-beakers.html

The area in the previous positing is the delivery room for the North European Beakers and offshoot.

It's most likely that BB steephead is a "abbreviation" in the Pro-Truding-Foot-Beaker milieu, the founding fathers of the Northern Bell Beakers or as Rms2 says of the Kurgan Bell Beakers.

rikvdb
10-08-2020, 05:01 PM
Yes I know those names are awful. But I don't know any other way to describe traits.

Finn
10-08-2020, 08:21 PM
What's correct is, in my opinion, that the typical Dinaric craniofacial characteristics, especially the more pronounced ones, point rather to a reduction of the chewing apparatus and teeth. This can be either because of an independent evolutionary trend, which is Dinarization, or similar results can be due to a mixture event like you describe it. That's why you can get "pseudo-Dinaric" facial impressions from everywhere. But looking at it from a higher perspective, at the bigger picture, that's not the reason for the spread, the reason is selection. So you are basically right, but it doesn't change about what we're talked about. Its however certainly possible that a mixture event caused a harmonisation process resulting in the typical features. This is why I'd say that Bell Beakers can't be explained from a SGC tradition without any other input that easily. Neither physically nor culturally. So we have to look at the neighbours which might have contributed, both at the physical remains, the artefacts and culture, but of course also the genetics. The Cerny group might prove to be interesting imho. Because if BB really come from the North at all, this is where I would look at.



This is what I doubt. The BB are not exclusively SGC derived, no way. It doesn't work out genetically and it doesn't work culturally. Imho. But let's see what the future results will reveal to us. :)

What in essence could be the case is that if we take the robust dolichocephalic of the Single Grave Culture as departure point. This robust dolichocephalic transforms in a proces of 'dinarization' and then we get the BB steephead.

Gerhardt (1976), you see here that the steephead is an 'abbreviation' of the robust dolichocephalic (the first transformation).
The 'Aurignacian' skull was like SGC one robust dolichocephalic.

40118

Riverman
10-08-2020, 08:38 PM
What in essence could be the case is that if we take the robust dolichocephalic of the Single Grave Culture as departure point. This robust dolichocephalic transforms in a proces of 'dinarization' and then we get the BB steephead.

Gerhardt (1976), you see here that the steephead is an 'abbreviation' of the robust dolichocephalic (the first transformation).
The 'Aurignacian' skull was like SGC one robust dolichocephalic.

40118

The problem with this is that there needs to be a reason for this, either mixture or selection, likely both. Because the other Corded groups didn't transform and even on the contrary came back to their original form - not fully, but largely - after the Bell Beaker rule was broken. Additionally, it would be easier to explain, if just the headshape changed, but in fact its a different patrilineage, a different autosomal profile (even if just slightly so) and of course a big cultural shift, with a new ideology, technology, weaponry, values and endogamic clans of their own. This doesn't fit well into something like "just a branch of Corded Ware". It just doesn't fit. Too many differences.
So there needs to be a significant new input and in the end, whereever it came from, it will be found. The Cerny group is just a hint to possibilities, because there were intensive relations to these people, just think about the flint dagger production, and also similar cultural shifts, like the archery and burial rite - possible connections even to Iberia. Anyway, it will turn up and out, hopefully rather sooner than later.

Finn
10-08-2020, 08:45 PM
The problem with this is that there needs to be a reason for this, either mixture or selection, likely both. Because the other Corded groups didn't transform and even on the contrary came back to their original form - not fully, but largely - after the Bell Beaker rule was broken. Additionally, it would be easier to explain, if just the headshape changed, but in fact its a different patrilineage, a different autosomal profile (even if just slightly so) and of course a big cultural shift, with a new ideology, technology, weaponry, values and endogamic clans of their own. This doesn't fit well into something like "just a branch of Corded Ware". It just doesn't fit. Too many differences.
So there needs to be a significant new input and in the end, whereever it came from, it will be found. The Cerny group is just a hint to possibilities, because there were intensive relations to these people, just think about the flint dagger production, and also similar cultural shifts, like the archery and burial rite - possible connections even to Iberia. Anyway, it will turn up and out, hopefully rather sooner than later.

I agree there must be a reason, but the proces ('an sich') could be likewise the case.....robust dolios>dinarization>BB steephead.

When it came to a mixture with the Cerny group is that when it influence the Dutch BB it mus have jumped over 'Belgium and South Dutch' over the Rhine. And besides that there are no indices (other than with TRB 3400 BC and SGC 2800 BC) of clear immigration.

Riverman
10-08-2020, 08:55 PM
I agree there must be a reason, but the proces ('an sich') could be likewise the case.....robust dolios>dinarization>BB steephead.

When it came to a mixture with the Cerny group is that when it influence the Dutch BB it mus have jumped over 'Belgium and South Dutch' over the Rhine. And besides that there are no indices (other than with TRB 3400 BC and SGC 2800 BC) of clear immigration.

I don't trust archaeological findings of "no migration", especially not in this so unclear case. Also, you can have a development from every racial form to any other racial form, in theory, over long periods of time and given the selection favours exactly these traits. Yet how likely is it? And what was so different in the Netherlands in particular, which are now one of the most dolichocephalic regions, and were so for most of the time of human habitation. It really makes no sense. If BB really came up their, from SGC-TRB, there must be something else, like an isolated substrate, some influx under the radar or whatever. There must be more to it, its not possible, not in this short period of time and with more of a change. Culturally the same is true. I think the geographical jump from the Cerny or Michelsberger is miniscule in comparison to the differences in genetics, physique, artefacts and culture observable. There must be more to it, people don't change that drastically, in every respect, just like that. That's against any probability and I for myself will only believe it, if any other pathway being excluded and there is a direct proof of absolute continuity. People will get surprised, I'm sure about it.

Finn
10-08-2020, 08:56 PM
The problem with this is that there needs to be a reason for this, either mixture or selection, likely both. Because the other Corded groups didn't transform and even on the contrary came back to their original form - not fully, but largely - after the Bell Beaker rule was broken. Additionally, it would be easier to explain, if just the headshape changed, but in fact its a different patrilineage, a different autosomal profile (even if just slightly so) and of course a big cultural shift, with a new ideology, technology, weaponry, values and endogamic clans of their own. This doesn't fit well into something like "just a branch of Corded Ware". It just doesn't fit. Too many differences.
So there needs to be a significant new input and in the end, whereever it came from, it will be found. The Cerny group is just a hint to possibilities, because there were intensive relations to these people, just think about the flint dagger production, and also similar cultural shifts, like the archery and burial rite - possible connections even to Iberia. Anyway, it will turn up and out, hopefully rather sooner than later.

The protruding foot beakers are the ones who transformed into bell beakers....

Archeologist Clarke 1964:

The Northern British/North Rhine Beaker Group
The particular interest of the Northern/North Rhine group and its close cousin the Barbed Wire beaker group, is that both groups only just scrape within the definition of beakers of the Bell beaker tradition. Both Northern/North Rhine and the Barbed-Wire beaker groups comprise traditions of mixed Late Corded Ware and peripheral Bell beaker origin. This mixture of traditions can be recognised in the squat, protruding foot, ovoid body beakers with recurved rims, incised or grooved decoration with a poor repertoir of basic beaker motifs and a neolithic poverty of grave associations. To these factors can be added the occasional use of cremation burial rite in a small grave with the beaker beside the cremation heap, and a number of vessels without decoration below the belly.
The Northern/North Rhine beaker group then is represented by the small squat or globular vessels with protruding feet. The decoration frequently consists of heavy grooving below the rim with crude or carelessly incised zones on the body, including metopic motifs. The typical motif is the multiple outlined triangle of the diagnostic form common throughout the Corded Ware tradition and entirely alien in the Bell beaker motif assemblage (Struve, 195 5, p. 136). The origin of the group seems to lie in the similar assemblages found immediately North of the old Rhine Delta and alongthe hinterland of the Frisian coasts. The Dutch examples of this group have been partially defined by Modderrnan ( 1955) but the type is centered across the border in coastal Germany. In this area it would appear that late and devolved Corded Ware groups integrated small bands of beaker settlers producing a pottery assemblage of hybrid character. These folk, with their strong non-beaker background, apparently crossed the North Sea in a series of small bands somewhere around 1700 B.C. or slightly later. The settlers clustered in three foci based on the North Sea Coast: - around the Moray Firth, in the Border Counties and on the Yorkshire Wolds. The domestic assemblage included both undecorated and non-plastic rusticated ware. The main importance of these settlers from across the North Sea lies in the subsequent integration of certain of their pottery features with the later Dutch beakers of the Veluwetype, giving rise to regional insular variations such as the beakers with short, angular.all-over-grooved necks.


Never say never ;)

Riverman
10-08-2020, 08:59 PM
The protruding foot beakers are the ones who transformed into bell beakers....

Archeologist Clarke 1964:

Never say never ;)

Well, they say they are the result of mixture with "devolved Corded Ware" groups, yet who brought the classical Bell Beaker tradition in the first place?

Generalissimo
10-08-2020, 09:20 PM
Well, they say they are the result of mixture with "devolved Corded Ware" groups, yet who brought the classical Bell Beaker tradition in the first place?

No one. They're just paying lip to the Iberian homeland theory.

The Bell Beaker tradition, or it's early version, developed in the Rhine region.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-balkan-connection.html

Riverman
10-08-2020, 09:32 PM
No one. They're just paying lip to the Iberian homeland theory.

The Bell Beaker tradition, or it's early version, developed in the Rhine region.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-balkan-connection.html

Honestly I don't think it works that way. Either this or that. I can buy the "devolved Corded Ware" hypothesis if an input was coming from outside, with significant external influences. Otherwise, no. I know the pro and cons, but just wait for more results to come. These archaeologists thought the same, because such an abrupt change doesn't make any sense, in no sphere (cultural, artefacts, weaponry, physique, genetic).

Generalissimo
10-08-2020, 10:11 PM
Honestly I don't think it works that way. Either this or that. I can buy the "devolved Corded Ware" hypothesis if an input was coming from outside, with significant external influences.

I'm not sure what you mean, because this part of the Corded Ware complex bordered Copper Age societies of Western Europe, and was in close contact with them.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gYHk8ckB7DQ/XDi1YOl7efI/AAAAAAAAHbA/EHIeYYhaFUQhyIx393tjFOLYLL-bIa5vwCLcBGAs/s1600/Corded_influences_in_the_west.png

Riverman
10-08-2020, 10:14 PM
I'm not sure what you mean, because this part of the Corded Ware complex bordered Copper Age societies of Western Europe, and was in close contact with them.

I know that, but the real question is from which exact group and in which way they got the cultural and genetic input which "made them Bell Beakers". My initial point was that a local continuity with just SGC+TRB substrate sufficing to explain the Bell Beaker phenomenon doesn't work out, on no level and in no sphere (culture, ideology, physique, genetic).

Generalissimo
10-08-2020, 10:18 PM
I know that, but the real question is from which exact group and in which way they got the cultural and genetic input which "made them Bell Beakers". My initial point was that a local continuity with just SGC+TRB substrate sufficing to explain the Bell Beaker phenomenon doesn't work out, on no level and in no sphere (culture, ideology, physique, genetic).

It was an outgrowth of the SGC with genetic/cultural influences from the Atlantic facade and later also the Carpathian Basin.

Riverman
10-08-2020, 10:25 PM
It was an outgrowth of the SGC with genetic/cultural influences from the Atlantic facade and later also the Carpathian Basin.

That's a possible interpretation, but I expect something more concrete and proven by actual samples which fit and cultural transmission models in some detail before I swallow it ;)

Finn
10-09-2020, 12:51 PM
That's a possible interpretation, but I expect something more concrete and proven by actual samples which fit and cultural transmission models in some detail before I swallow it ;)

@Riverman the following study is clear about the evolutionary advance of dinarization. Because I guess dinarization only makes sense when it has an evolutionary advantage. And in the case of the Bell Beakers they spread all over the place so they must have had some kind of advantage (otherwise they would be soon have left the scene).

Departure point:

For those specimens with a highercranial vault thickness (brachycrany or round headedness), the cranial vault thickness was thinner. Conversely, for the specimens with lower cranial vault thickness (dolichocrany or narrow headedness), the cranial vault thickness was thicker.


They give the following reasons:

-Adaption to the cold/use of resources


Beal (1972) recognizes the increase of cranial index through evolution and into the modernhuman population. In indentifying that the majority of fossil hominids have long, low heads, he theorizes that the long, low heads of current populations in warm climates is merely a continuance of the ancestral condition. When hominids left Africa, their heads became rounder, allowing them to live in cold climates. By adapting to the advantage of brachycephaly, hominids were better able to exploit the resources of the land and endure the cold weather (Beals 1972)

- Biomechanically efficient

In summary, cranial vault thickness began its sudden decrease one to two hundred thousand years ago (Nawrocki 1991 and Lieberman et al. 2000). It is no coincidence that this change takes place at the same time as the rapid expansion of the brain. These changes created increasingly spherical cranial vaults that became more biomechanically efficient than the hominid skulls before them (Lieberman 1996).

Along with the expansion of the brain, other factors have affected the trend toward greater spherecity of the cranium including advances in technology and eating practices. Large prognathic faces no longer became necessary in the cooking and processing of food, resulting in a decrease of stress on the vault (Nawrocki 1991).A combination of these factors has produced a more efficient, globular cranium for modern humans.


As weapons became more advanced, long-distance technologies, such as spears, eliminated the need for close combat, thus resulting in thinner skulls which are metabolically less expensive (Wolpoff 1980).

Translated to LNBA:
Partly you also pointed at these factors and the need to adept to that. So it's a real possibility that within the Single Grave Culture/ Protruding Foot Beaker this adaption in the form of 'Dinarization' took place. The Steppe herders/pastoralist, as robust dolicho's (=thicker vaulted) settled down in the Rhine Delta adapted to environment and took the Bell Beaker package and so a different, more social complex, life style. This meant a need of a new 'expansion of the brain'. Their close knit endogamous character meant a push in the spread of this steephead phenotype.

https://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/AA/00/06/00/40/00001/bwalter-Undergrad_Honors_Thesis.pdf

Riverman
10-09-2020, 01:06 PM
-Adaption to the cold

That's a pseudo-correlation, because farming and civilisation, as well as other self-domesticating factors became earlier and wider spread in the Northern hemisphere. Some of the most cold adapted people of the world are extremely dolichocephalic, especially the Inuits.


Along with the expansion of the brain, other factors have affected the trend toward greater spherecity of the cranium including advances in technology and eating practices. Large prognathic faces no longer became necessary in the cooking and processing of food, resulting in a decrease of stress on the vault (Nawrocki 1991).A combination of these factors has produced a more efficient, globular cranium for modern humans.

That depends on the starting point and other circumstances involved, because modern humans, even some fully modern and highly evolved ones were extremely dolichocephalic, some even much more so than Neandertals or Homo erectus specimen, which would have been even shorter headed without the protruding supraorbital region by the way.

The reduction of the chewing apparatus allowed the reduction of the skull and temporal bone surface. But we have specimen with very strong masseters with short heads and those with very weakly developed in longheads. So this too is not decisive for the difference in moderns.


As weapons became more advanced, long-distance technologies, such as spears, eliminated the need for close combat, thus resulting in thinner skulls which are metabolically less expensive (Wolpoff 1980).

That's the main factor beside social and sexual selection, hormonal and growth processes associated. There is actually not ONE reason for short heads and not ONE reason for long heads, as there is not just one sort of it anyway. This means every case has to be looked at on its own.
The most sense in the Bell Beaker case makes a mixture with a radically different people and following specific harmonisation processes leading to a distinctive physical appearance, which was also used, since this was an ethnogenesis as well, to distinguish themselves from their Corded Ware relatives. Its delineation on purpose based on a mixture event and cultural transmission event. Which leaves, like said above, the question as to which exact group's input was starting it?

Finn
10-09-2020, 01:52 PM
That's a pseudo-correlation, because farming and civilisation, as well as other self-domesticating factors became earlier and wider spread in the Northern hemisphere. Some of the most cold adapted people of the world are extremely dolichocephalic, especially the Inuits.


Simply said the pastoralist herders from the Steppe became (part-time ;) settlers and agriculturalist in the Rhine Delta. So the general shift is older but for the incoming pastoralist it meant really a shift.


The reduction of the chewing apparatus allowed the reduction of the skull and temporal bone surface. But we have specimen with very strong masseters with short heads and those with very weakly developed in longheads. So this too is not decisive for the difference in moderns.

Nevertheless it's more likely that the herders with more 'large prognathic faces' with their pastoralist life style were less 'needed' in the BB transformation.

Advanced weapons are part of something bigger and that's a big reason why the brain expansioned : it was a real adaption to a more complex society/ culture the BB package was more complicated than the society they were 'fresh from the Steppe'. Cultural chances, adaptions, have lead to a better brain capacity. A better function brain was a real advantage. And this meant and his turn also a cultural push (kind of upwards spiral movement).

Core is that if Dinaraziation would have meant 'degeneration' the BB would be not so successful! Simple as that.....

See:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/209007v1


The most sense in the Bell Beaker case makes a mixture with a radically different people and following specific harmonisation processes leading to a distinctive physical appearance, which was also used, since this was an ethnogenesis as well, to distinguish themselves from their Corded Ware relatives.

Could be (candidates? ;) yes the TRB... the other option is also a real possibility: an adaption, deviation, from within the SGC people themselves, an evolvement can but does not necessarily depending on mixture.

A need to differentiate from Corded Ware looks too much 'identity' based to be useful for this time in the past.

'My research is based on the theory that skulls with a more spherical shape are stronger, and thus are not required to compensate with a thick cranial vault (Demes 1987, Nawrocki 1991, Lieberman 1996).' Thinner vault was in this case congruent with 'Dinarization', as Gerhardt (1976) shows here:
40136

Finn
10-09-2020, 02:24 PM
Bell Beaker blogger already made those options for Single Grave/ Pro Truding Foot Beaker:

Out of SGC

One group may say that this shows the correctness of Lanting and Van der Waals original evolutionary scheme in the Veluwe region (Central) Netherlands, from the type 1d phase to the AOO phase ushering in the Bell Beakers, expanding throughout the Netherlands. (This is probably a good time to pause and refer to Harry Folkens simplified narrative of the Dutch Hypothesis to non-Dutchmen, which can illuminate a confusing topic)


Mixtures

Another way to look at this is that the PFB culture, and specifically its late type 1d phase, has come under the influence of outsiders, typified by the AOO Bell Beaker folk who are simultaneously extending their influence upon the Vlaardingen Culture of the North and West as well as the indigenous Corded Ware of the Central and East. In this scenario, there still may be Corded Ware influence, but not from here. Either way, this would be evidence of an intrusive network, disrupting an older network.

Or they are simple hybrids, a fission between two different cultures and peoples at the atomic level, possibly Maritime folk and PFB folk? I think in a number of places we see Beakerized Corded Ware folk, the Lowlands may be one of those places. I've commented before on the haplogroups of Northeastern Scotland, which may be evidence that some Corded lineages fared better in the West, like the Lowlands, fared better than others.


https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/11/interesting-corded-ware-grave.html

Generalissimo
10-11-2020, 02:38 AM
People will get surprised, I'm sure about it.

There will be some surprises, at least for some, but not in the way you think.

One thing that you'll see, which should be obvious by now anyway, is very strong paternal continuity between western CWC/Single Grave and Bell Beakers.

Once you accept that this is the case, then there's not much room for invasions into CWC territory to create Bell Beakers.

So, naturally, the extreme Beaker brachycephaly must have been a local development, and there's nothing crazy about this idea, considering that it's known that average cephalic indices can shift by several points in populations within a few hundred years, or even less.

By the way, reading Carlos Quiles will rot your brain, so be careful.

Riverman
10-11-2020, 10:05 AM
There will be some surprises, at least for some, but not in the way you think.

One thing that you'll see, which should be obvious by now anyway, is very strong paternal continuity between western CWC/Single Grave and Bell Beakers.

Once you accept that this is the case, then there's not much room for invasions into CWC territory to create Bell Beakers.

So, naturally, the extreme Beaker brachycephaly must have been a local development, and there's nothing crazy about this idea, considering that it's know that average cephalic indices can shift by several points in populations within a few hundred years, or even less.

First of all, Bell Beakers patrilineages are obviously either a very specific, differentiated branch of Corded Ware or a fringe group which was different from the start, because otherwise the distribution of paternal haplogroups would be more evenly spread. Secondly, even if I accept them to come in with the exact same genetic and physical profile as other Corded Ware groups, which is at least possible, the problem remains that admixture is most likely needed to create the process which started their genetic, physical and cultural transformation. This doesn't need to be a break in paternal continuity, like in the case of Proto-Indo-Europeans, which too got changed genetically, physically and culturally first by CHG and later Western Neolithics. And the admixture doesn't even need to exceed let's say 20 %. However, we need to find a people, a local cultural group, which genetic, physical and cultural profile fits the bill. Like descendents from the Cerny group and the Neolithics from the Paris Basin, if saying it was really the Dutch Beakers which were in the centre of the evolution of the Bell Beakers as a whole. Seine-Oise-Marne Culture is close in the time and space, but I have little information about it. However, interesting is the Grand Pressingy flint production, because that's what connects the whole region and shows Western influences in the SGC:


During the Late Neolithic, burial gis of flint occur relatively frequently. Famous examples are the Grand Pressigny daggers in later Single Grave barrows and the plano-convex knives and arrow-heads in Bell Beaker barrows (Lanting & Waals 1976). The daggers in particular have been inter-preted as being indicative of the veneration of martial qualities from the Beaker period onwards (Fokkens 1999).

GP daggers are really important in the Single Grave context and probably best foreshadow the Bell Beaker evolution:


However, the archaeological context in which the earlier French and the later Scandinavian dag-gers were found is entirely different. This is most clearly visible in the province of Drenthe where the landscape is more differentiated and where there has been intensive archaeological research. Whereas the French daggers were exclusively found in burials3, the later daggers of Scandina-vian origin are almost never found in graves4, but instead are located along rivers or near bogs, usu-ally as single finds (figure 7). This paern may suggest that the southern daggers were related to individual members of society, possibly belonging to an emerging elite, and that they symbolized the martial values prevailing in Single Grave society (Fokkens 1999). However, I would argue that this individual member of the elite was very much part of a larger society and may actually be considered a dividual, embedded in the larger society through social links (Fowler 2004). This can be deduced from the apparently very strict regulation of the burial package, indicating that it is not so much the identity of the individual that is referred to in the burial goods, but a position in the social fabric and, possibly, even the position of the community in the larger Single Grave universe. This position may be legitimized by reference to exotic objects like the GP dagger.

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/32664/Van%20Gijn%20_%202010%20_%20Not%20at%20all%20obsol ete%20the%20use%20of%20Bronze%20Age%20flint%20in%2 0the%20Netherlands.pdf?sequence=1

Finn
10-11-2020, 04:43 PM
First of all, Bell Beakers patrilineages are obviously either a very specific, differentiated branch of Corded Ware or a fringe group which was different from the start, because otherwise the distribution of paternal haplogroups would be more evenly spread. Secondly, even if I accept them to come in with the exact same genetic and physical profile as other Corded Ware groups, which is at least possible, the problem remains that admixture is most likely needed to create the process which started their genetic, physical and cultural transformation. This doesn't need to be a break in paternal continuity, like in the case of Proto-Indo-Europeans, which too got changed genetically, physically and culturally first by CHG and later Western Neolithics. And the admixture doesn't even need to exceed let's say 20 %. However, we need to find a people, a local cultural group, which genetic, physical and cultural profile fits the bill. Like descendents from the Cerny group and the Neolithics from the Paris Basin, if saying it was really the Dutch Beakers which were in the centre of the evolution of the Bell Beakers as a whole. Seine-Oise-Marne Culture is close in the time and space, but I have little information about it. However, interesting is the Grand Pressingy flint production, because that's what connects the whole region and shows Western influences in the SGC:



GP daggers are really important in the Single Grave context and probably best foreshadow the Bell Beaker evolution:



https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/32664/Van%20Gijn%20_%202010%20_%20Not%20at%20all%20obsol ete%20the%20use%20of%20Bronze%20Age%20flint%20in%2 0the%20Netherlands.pdf?sequence=1

Yes this GP daggers are significant but are in the category changing pots, not necessarily changing people. There are no archeological indices for an new influx.
It could well be that the chances in phenotype are an adaption within the SGC/ Protruding Foor Beaker (already a subgroup!) itself. They became sedentary, more agriculture, chanced their lifestyle diet etc. And they embraced the BB package (incl archery), a more complex culture/society. Reasons enough.

You will have to explain why it's an absolute necessary to mix before a phenotype chances....

Finn
10-11-2020, 04:49 PM
First of all, Bell Beakers patrilineages are obviously either a very specific, differentiated branch of Corded Ware or a fringe group which was different from the start, because otherwise the distribution of paternal haplogroups would be more evenly spread. Secondly, even if I accept them to come in with the exact same genetic and physical profile as other Corded Ware groups, which is at least possible, the problem remains that admixture is most likely needed to create the process which started their genetic, physical and cultural transformation. This doesn't need to be a break in paternal continuity, like in the case of Proto-Indo-Europeans, which too got changed genetically, physically and culturally first by CHG and later Western Neolithics. And the admixture doesn't even need to exceed let's say 20 %. However, we need to find a people, a local cultural group, which genetic, physical and cultural profile fits the bill. Like descendents from the Cerny group and the Neolithics from the Paris Basin, if saying it was really the Dutch Beakers which were in the centre of the evolution of the Bell Beakers as a whole. Seine-Oise-Marne Culture is close in the time and space, but I have little information about it. However, interesting is the Grand Pressingy flint production, because that's what connects the whole region and shows Western influences in the SGC:

GP daggers are really important in the Single Grave context and probably best foreshadow the Bell Beaker evolution:

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/32664/Van%20Gijn%20_%202010%20_%20Not%20at%20all%20obsol ete%20the%20use%20of%20Bronze%20Age%20flint%20in%2 0the%20Netherlands.pdf?sequence=1

About the GP Dagger and further:


As will be presented in the following chapters, for the CW culture there are strong (cultural/exchange) links with other CW groups in Germany and Scandinavia, but there is little to no evidence suggesting (cultural/exchange) links with the south. This appears to change around 2600 BCE, marked by the first occurrence of AOO beak- ers. These can be found throughout the CW region in the Netherlands, but also in large parts of Atlantic Europe, including Britain, France and the Iberian Peninsula
21 See Lanting (2008, 15) for several closed contexts where AOO and CW/BB pottery co-occur.
(see Vander Linden 2006a; Salanova 2000, 12; Case 2004a, 19). Although in the Netherlands the AOO is often seen as the final phase of the CW culture, especially in Atlantic Europe the AOO is rather seen as the first phase of the BB complex.22
That the AOO does not merely concern a new style in pottery decoration is reflected not only by the rather different distribution of the AOO beakers themselves – includ- ing Atlantic Europe – but also by flint daggers (that co-occur with AOO beakers as well as late CW beakers) which were imported from Atlantic Europe (Grand-Pressigny flint daggers from central France and Romigny-Lèhry flint daggers from northern France). As will be argued below (Chapter 5), the introduction of this new type of beaker as well as the introduction of these French daggers does not reflect structural changes in the funerary practice itself, but rather indicate the existence of different exchange lines through which new (styles of) objects start to circulate (see also Salanova 2016). As such it is difficult to decide whether the AOO signifies the final stage of the CW culture or the first stage of the BB complex.23 In fact, it incorporates aspects of both, reflecting a continuation of the CW culture burial ritual but incorporating objects from different regions/networks more in line with the later developments characteristic for the BB complex.


A good recent and free available work:
https://www.sidestone.com/books/stereotype

Riverman
10-11-2020, 04:53 PM
Yes this GP daggers are significant but are in the category changing pots, not necessarily changing people. There are no archeological indices for an new influx.
It could well be that the chances in phenotype are an adaption within the SGC itself. They became sedentary, more agriculture, chanced their lifestyle diet etc. And they embraced the BB package (incl archery), a more complex culture/society. Reasons enough.

You will have to explain why it's an absolute necessary to mix before a phenotype chances....

Because every admixture events changes the fundaments of a given population and its adaptive character. Especially under strong selective pressures, like you describe it, there is a harmonisation process associated with such "destabillised" biological forms. There is no indication why, without such a dynamic, drastic changes in a short time, largely in the same evolutionary setting, the changes are not big enough and after the Bell Beakers demise the characteristic Dinaric-like combination decreased very drastically in frequency. So the logical conclusion is that there was a destabilising admixture, followed by a harmonisation and adaptation process - associated both with the new gene flow as well as new way of living and physical differentiation from the general Corded Ware horizon.
Bell Beakers really evolved away from the general Corded Ware horizon, in the direction of other Copper Age groups. More so culturally and technically, than physically, which is the mystery. But probably there is a distinctive local population, which was influential, which fits in also genetically and physically. In any case, there is no 1 : 1 continuation of Corded Ware, not at all, there is more to it and this has a genetic-biological aspect, a new influence in the package.

Finn
10-11-2020, 04:59 PM
Because every admixture events changes the fundaments of a given population and its adaptive character. Especially under strong selective pressures, like you describe it, there is a harmonisation process associated with such "destabillised" biological forms. There is no indication why, without such a dynamic, drastic changes in a short time, largely in the same evolutionary setting, the changes are not big enough and after the Bell Beakers demise the characteristic Dinaroid combination decreased very drastically in frequency. So the logical conclusion is that there was a destabilising admixture, followed by a harmonisation and adaptation process - associated both with the new gene flow as well as new way of living and physical differentiation from the general Corded Ware horizon.
Bell Beakers really evolved away from the general Corded Ware horizon, in the direction of other Copper Age groups. More so culturally and technically, than physically, which is the mystery. But probably there is a distinctive local population, which was influential, which fits in also genetically and physically.

The Protruding Foot Beakers were already a somewhat differentiated group (own type of pottery etc) within the SGC context. The chances were hundreds of years at least several generations, I agree with Generalissimo that within this timeframe it's real to expect such chances. And as said there are, besides new cultural influxes no signs of new kids on the block!

Riverman
10-11-2020, 05:13 PM
The Protruding Foot Beakers are already a somewhat differentiated group (own type of pottery etc) within the SGC context. The chances were hundreds of years at least several generations, I agree with Generalissimo that within this timeframe is real to expect chances. And as said there are, besides new cultural influxes no signs of new kids on the block!

The genetic profile of BB doesn't fit the continuation theory all too well neither and in such a short period of just a few generations, such fairly drastic changes from almost the opposite in the skull-craniofacial architecture in a way, is hardly thinkable. There are also signs of different phenotypes appearing, within the Bell Beaker context, which even deviate more from the Corded standard, basically going in an Alpine direction or very robust hunter gatherer forms. This too would speak, strongly, for a new influence in the regional population and is largely unseen in the Corded Ware horizon. Like I said earlier, we still don't even have samples from the Cerny group and Paris basin, a lot is still unresolved and there will be surprises - I might be proven wrong, but it woudl be unlogical and against most examples of racial/physical change I know of. There were always "real causes", and in the case of BB there is none, unless there was, initially, a significant admixture event - which doesn't need to be too big, probably like 20 percent.

Finn
10-11-2020, 05:25 PM
The genetic profile of BB doesn't fit the continuation theory all too well neither and in such a short period of just a few generations, such fairly drastic changes from almost the opposite in the skull-craniofacial architecture in a way, is hardly thinkable. There are also signs of different phenotypes appearing, within the Bell Beaker context, which even deviate more from the Corded standard, basically going in an Alpine direction or very robust hunter gatherer forms. This too would speak, strongly, for a new influence in the regional population and is largely unseen in the Corded Ware horizon. Like I said earlier, we still don't even have samples from the Cerny group and Paris basin, a lot is still unresolved and there will be surprises - I might be proven wrong, but it woudl be unlogical and against most examples of racial/physical change I know of. There were always "real causes", and in the case of BB there is none, unless there was, initially, a significant admixture event - which doesn't need to be too big, probably like 20 percent.

You exaggerate because these changes can occur even within few generations, recent example, the Korean case:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12565-020-00529-z
And in this case there was no influx of new people.
It almost seems like wishful thinking, such changes have to be an effect of influx.... the fact is this can be sometimes the case but are no necessity.

homunculus
10-11-2020, 06:43 PM
I've sometimes wondered if the shape of the mother's birth canal could also have an impact on the shape of the child's cranium. If the BB women were tall, lanky and with an androgynous body type, then the child might get their shape determined by the shape of the cervical aperture. Outlandish, and maybe a bit weird but I've noticed that ectomorphic, androgynous women tend to have short skulled offspring. Then again, one can find a lot of variation in cranial length among siblings.

Finn
10-11-2020, 06:48 PM
I've sometimes wondered if the shape of the mother's birth canal could also have an impact on the shape of the child's cranium. If the BB women were tall, lanky and with an androgynous body type, then the child might get their shape determined by the shape of the cervical aperture. Outlandish, and maybe a bit weird but I've noticed that ectomorphic, androgynous women tend to have short skulled offspring. Then again, one can find a lot of variation in cranial length among siblings.

I'm a living example of brachycephaly+ hypsicephaly+ flat occiput....born with cesarean section....so the other way to Rome so to say:biggrin1:

Riverman
10-11-2020, 07:10 PM
You exaggerate because these changes can occur even within few generations, recent example, the Korean case:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12565-020-00529-z
And in this case there was no influx of new people.
It almost seems like wishful thinking, such changes have to be an effect of influx.... the fact is this can be sometimes the case but are no necessity.

You can only compare the same substrate and source type, and the substrate and source type for SGC, if they were really from the common Corded Ware horizon, was the Corded Ware type. And we're not talking about a slight frequency change, we're talking about an "upside down" effect. So a lot of things are possible, but likely its not without a new genetic and typological input. But like I said, its up to future research to find the ultimate origin of Bell Beakers and the probably even rather minor genetic inputs they had before radiating out. We won't solve that in debates, because more knowledgable blokes did it for decades without a final verdict. And the genetic evidence put forward so far just proves the major contributon of Corded Ware to Bell Beakers, nothing more.


I'm a living example of brachycephaly+ hypsicephaly+ flat occiput....born with cesarean section....so the other way to Rome so to say:biggrin1:

A birth being influenced by many factors. Birth problems are, to some degree, inheritable and can occur in the same maternal lineage even with different headshapes.

By the way, there is this evolutionary tendency of saving and reducing robust bones and skulls. We can see that from ANE/Mesolithic Russian foragers -> Dnieper–Donets -> Early Sredny Stog -> Yamnaya -> Corded Ware -> Bell Beaker -> Unetice -> moderns

However, practically every step was induced by new genetic and cultural influences. It didn't start just like that. Obviously Bell Beakers could be interpreted as the "more economic" version for "tall warriors", which all these people were. And the following cultures which reverted back to dolichocephaly could have profited from intensified cattle breeding and milk usage, with lactase persistence and depigmentation, which was not evolved in Corded Ware and "just one the way" in Bell Beakers. But then again, practically every step here and elsewhere was induced by new cultural and genetic inputs.

The Korean example is correct for the environmentally caused deprivation in feudal times and even more so early industrialisation and war, and the reverse effect of high energy, protein rich food and less detrimental lifestyle recently. This is known, the effect is widespread, but not universal, not even in East Asia. Its always based on genetic preconditions and substrate effects. The differences were surely not significant for Bell Beakers vs. Corded Ware and its not for modern people with craniological traits approaching them.

Whether there were new genetic influences in the Single Grave Culture must be tested thoroughly, then we will see whethere there was some and whether they were the true source for the core Bell Beaker group.

Finn
10-11-2020, 08:39 PM
You can only compare the same substrate and source type, and the substrate and source type for SGC, if they were really from the common Corded Ware horizon, was the Corded Ware type. And we're not talking about a slight frequency change, we're talking about an "upside down" effect. So a lot of things are possible, but likely its not without a new genetic and typological input. But like I said, its up to future research to find the ultimate origin of Bell Beakers and the probably even rather minor genetic inputs they had before radiating out. We won't solve that in debates, because more knowledgable blokes did it for decades without a final verdict. And the genetic evidence put forward so far just proves the major contributon of Corded Ware to Bell Beakers, nothing more.


We are definitely not talking about an upside down effect.

The departure point is the dominant feature of SGC: the robust dolichocephalic skull.

Again Gerhardt (1976), especially the first row here we see the development of the SGC kind of skull to BB steephead.
40182

From above this gives a "purse" (old fashioned wallet) impression, flat beneath and towards the top more spherical.

And that's exactly really exactly what the referred paper says:

In this study, the null hypothesis will be rejected and prove that cranial vault thickness does vary when considering cranial index and support the theory that if the skull is more spherical, it is better able to withstand external forces and can, therefore, be thinner in cross section.



Spherical domes are the strongest of all shell structures, while cylindrical shells, those structures that are longer than adjacent sides, are weaker (Demes 1985 and 1987). Thus, a more globular skull is desired for maximum protection of the brain.


That's exactly what happened with the 'transformation' of SGC skull into the BB skull, more spherical, thinner so the possibly of an occurrence of a flattened occiput.

That's the thing, that's an adaption, but not turning upside down....

https://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/AA/00/06/00/40/00001/bwalter-Undergrad_Honors_Thesis.pdf

Riverman
10-11-2020, 08:46 PM
We ar definitely not talking about an upside down effect.

The departure point is the dominant feature of SGC: the robust dolichocephalic skull.

Again Gerhardt (1976), especially the first row here we see the development of the SGC kind of skull to BB steephead.
40182

From above this gives a "purse" (old fashioned wallet) impression, flat beneath and towards the top more spherical.

And that's exactly real exactly what the referred paper says:




That's exactly what happened with the SGC, more spherical, thinner so the possibly of occurrence of a flattened occiput.

That's the thing, that's an adaption, but not turning upside down....

https://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/AA/00/06/00/40/00001/bwalter-Undergrad_Honors_Thesis.pdf

I edited my last post and added some comments. So I don't disagree with you in principle, I just see additional causes.

rikvdb
10-12-2020, 05:11 AM
Is there any possibility that the change in skull shape as shown on that picture is due to a change in the sphenoid bone?

Finn
10-12-2020, 07:25 AM
Whether there were new genetic influences in the Single Grave Culture must be tested thoroughly, then we will see whethere there was some and whether they were the true source for the core Bell Beaker group.

Davidski aka Generalissimo has already shown this!


I've been studying in detail the genetic substructures within the Bell Beaker population with formal statistics and Principal Component Analyses (PCA). As far as I can see, among the two most homogeneous, and thus least likely to be recently admixed, Beaker groups are the Dutch Beakers and also the Dutch and British Beaker males belonging to Y-haplogroup R1b-P312. This, of course, makes good sense, because both the Dutch and British Beakers are so called Rhenish Beakers.

The results are also in line with the observation that the Dutch Beakers are the quintessential Beakers in terms of physique, with three quarters or more sporting exceedingly brachycephalic, planoccipital skulls (like this).

Moreover, these two Beaker groups are among the most Yamnaya-like Beakers, with almost as much Yamnaya-related ancestry as the Corded Ware culture samples from Germany (~60% vs ~70%). As a result, in my PCA of ancient West Eurasian genetic variation the Dutch Beakers form a more or less continuous, west to east cline with these and other Corded Ware individuals that runs all the way to the Yamnaya cluster.



The Dutch Beakers don't exactly sit between the Corded Ware and the other Beaker samples, but generally at the apex of their clusters, suggesting to me that they're not a mixture between Corded Ware and one or more of the other Beaker groups, but rather, as per my recent argumentation, a genetically homogeneous, relatively unique and thus long-standing Corded Ware-related population that may have contributed significant gene flow to the other Beaker groups.


https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/dutch-beakers-like-no-other-beakers.html

Finn
10-12-2020, 07:41 AM
@Riverman and an add, if you want to detect a mix, don't underestimate the Funnelbeaker factor, the difference between Protruding Foot Beaker and later on is some reemerge of the Funnelbeaker genes. The Steppe pastoralist took some funnel beaker woman and this prolonged during BB time.

We have indices for that:

Aspects of Bell Beaker economy are dealt with in papers by Waterbolk (1956), Modderman(1963) and VanZeist (1967, inpress). Pollen spectra from beneath Bell Beaker barrows differ from those of PFB culture (= Protruding Foot Beaker culture, the Dutch branch of the Battle Axe - Corded Ware family) barrows, and appear to be of the same character as those referring to the TRB culture. (Butler en Van der Waals)


The cultural emphasis on drinking equipment already characteristic of the early indigenous Funnelbeaker culture, synthesized with newly arrived Corded Ware traditions. Especially in the west (Scandinavia and northern Germany), the drinking vessels have a protruding foot and define the Protruding-Foot Beaker culture (PFB ) as a subset of the Single Grave culture.
(wiki)

Of course we can't rule out other blends but the strongest indices is the blend with the funnelbeakers/ TRB.

Riverman
10-12-2020, 08:13 AM
Davidski aka Generalissimo has already shown this!






https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/dutch-beakers-like-no-other-beakers.html

Finn, with this he just says that the Dutch Beakers are in his opinion the origin of the other Beakers, because they are more homogeneous and spread their profile, going after the data analyses done so far. This doesn't mean however, that they are "pure Corded Ware", absolutely not, because they deviate in uniparentals and autosomally from "regular Corded Ware", even if they would descend from these. The TRB admixture is know, but the TRB I heard about were mostly dolichocephalic. Gerhardt did mention some "Borreby-like" individuals from Iberia and of course they lived also in the North Sea region, but I don't know a lot about their presence in the local Dutch Beaker substrate. Obviously a local brachycephalic group would fit the bill the best. Alpine-like individuals are known from the French Neolithic, which cultural impact (daggers, archery, burial rite, trade contacts and exchange) we already discussed. We will see how that pans out.

Finn
10-12-2020, 08:28 AM
Finn, with this he just says that the Dutch Beakers are in his opinion the origin of the other Beakers, because they are more homogeneous and spread their profile, going after the data analyses done so far. This doesn't mean however, that they are "pure Corded Ware", absolutely not, because they deviate in uniparentals and autosomally from "regular Corded Ware", even if they would descend from these. The TRB admixture is know, but the TRB I heard about were mostly dolichocephalic. Gerhardt did mention some "Borreby-like" individuals from Iberia and of course they lived also in the North Sea region, but I don't know a lot about their presence in the local Dutch Beaker substrate. Obviously a local brachycephalic group would fit the bill the best. Alpine-like individuals are known from the French Neolithic, which cultural impact (daggers, archery, burial rite, trade contacts and exchange) we already discussed. We will see how that pans out.

No one said it was pure this or pure that (I don't know pure this or that, that is idee fixe).And PTB evolving into BB yes they spread all over the place, for example to England (see Olalde 2018). And Finn Mom coming close to a Lech Valley BB sample doesn't look coincidental to me. I guess the 'breeding area' of the Northern Beakers and their phenotype is indeed the Rhenish area....

As you can see in the 'second row' of Gerhardt in which he shows the 'Dinarization' effect on the more "CM" (give it a name) type of skull. I guess this 'CM' type was prominent along TRB. Gerhardt debunked by the way the 'Borreby' type.

I guess already in TRB the Ertebølle HG skull, that reminds me somewhat of a piranha ;) was already modified to an agricultural life style.

The French daggers are IMO more cultural, more an effect of trade and a widening horizon. No single evidence for the influence of these people.

Riverman
10-12-2020, 08:38 AM
No one said it was pure this or pure that (I don't know pure this or that, that is idee fixe).And PTB evolving into BB yes they spread all over the place, for example to England (see Olalde 2018). And Finn Mom coming close to a Lech Valley BB sample doesn't look coincidental to me. I guess the 'breeding area' of the Northern Beakers and their phenotype is indeed the Rhenish area....

As you can see in the 'second row' of Gerhardt in which he shows the 'Dinarization' effect on the more "CM" (give it a name) type of skull. I guess this was prominent along TRB. Gerhardt debunked by the way the 'Borreby' type.

I guess already in TRB the Ertebølle HG skull, that reminds me somewhat of a piranha ;) was already modified to a agricultural life style.

The French daggers are IMO more cultural, more an effect of trade and a widening horizon. No single evidence for the influence of these people.

"Pure" in this sense means just being in an average or median position relative to other Corded Ware samples known to us, which the Bell Beakers are not, not by uniparentals, not autosomally. They deviate from the genetic profile of the Corded Ware people more. I tell you what I want:
- Regional Corded Ware samples from the earliest phase
- Regional Rhenish/Dutch Single Grave samples and samples from neighbouring Corded Ware groups, as well as neighbouring Neolithic and Copper Age groups, like Cerny and Seine-Oise-Marne in particular and checking for a South Western or South Eastern European connection at the same time.
- See if the change in cultural and physique was accompanied by a change in genetic structure as well or happened from within a stabilised SGC horizon.
- Physical specimen from local TRB, Cerny, Seine-Oise-Marne for anthropometric comparisons.

If we have all this, and we don't, we can say it with certainty. Before, it remains speculative.


The French daggers are IMO more cultural, more an effect of trade and a widening horizon. No single evidence for the influence of these people.

Having such close proximity, contacts and relations, isn't really a contradiction to admixture? Must be checked, simple as that.

Generalissimo
10-12-2020, 08:45 AM
This doesn't mean however, that they are "pure Corded Ware", absolutely not, because they deviate in uniparentals and autosomally from "regular Corded Ware", even if they would descend from these.

But of course they don't deviate in uniparentals or autosomally from regular Corded Ware.

Corded Ware populations belonged to R1a-M417, R1b-L51 and various subclades of I2. They also showed a range of farmer admixture, and early Beakers were well within this range.

What I demonstrated, and what was then later corroborated by new Y-chromosome data from Corded Ware samples in Germany and Poland, and will be further corroborated by data from Dutch Single Grave, is that the Dutch Beaker population could not have formed due to any significant influences from outside of the Lower Rhine region and surrounds.

Finn
10-12-2020, 08:59 AM
"
Having such close proximity, contacts and relations, isn't really a contradiction to admixture? Must be checked, simple as that.

They were not close, the orientation of Single Grave was clearly NE wards, and already the previous TRB was an offshoot of TRB North. Seine-Oise-Marne area was not close connected to the North European Plain....the gene pool of the North Dutch area has always been the most western outlier of the North European Plain between the North Sea and the Baltics. That's the 'core circulation area'.

Riverman
10-12-2020, 09:02 AM
What I demonstrated, and what was then later corroborated by new Y-chromosome data from Corded Ware samples in Germany and Poland, and will be further corroborated by data from Dutch Single Grave, is that the Dutch Beaker population could not have formed due to any significant influences from outside of the Lower Rhine region and surrounds.

Well, that's important, the "surrounds" and to which zone you limit it. I just wait for the data to come in, then we will see.

Generalissimo
10-12-2020, 10:13 AM
Well, that's important, the "surrounds" and to which zone you limit it. I just wait for the data to come in, then we will see.

I limit it to the westernmost Corded Ware zone, you know, where populations rich in R1b-L151 and identical to early Beakers lived at precisely the right time.

That basically seals it. Now all we have left to discuss are the details.

Riverman
10-12-2020, 10:17 AM
I limit it to the westernmost Corded Ware zone, you know, where populations rich in R1b-L151 and identical to early Beakers lived at precisely the right time.

That basically seals it. Now all we have left to discuss are the details.

The details of the origin of the WHG and Neolithic admixture matter a lot.

Finn
10-12-2020, 10:53 AM
The details of the origin of the WHG and Neolithic admixture matter a lot.

Here some fragment of archeologist Lanting, he very clearly points at a SGC origin of the Rhenish Beakers:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/u6sgcol462ih.45.17.png

https://www.mupload.nl/img/eafugszez.45.37.png

Also interesting re-use of the TRB 'hunebedden':
https://www.mupload.nl/img/bbts5xltm66q.51.38.png

As said the TRB-West is the most likely blending partner and deliverer of the neolithic/hg component (because they lived in the same area!!!).

source (https://ugp.rug.nl/Palaeohistoria/issue/view/3333)

Generalissimo
10-12-2020, 11:11 AM
The details of the origin of the WHG and Neolithic admixture matter a lot.

That's not what I meant. It's been obvious for a long time that the source of farmer ancestry in early Bell Beakers and Corded Ware was Globular Amphora and probably TRB. That is, North-Central Euro farmers, not those from the Carpathian Basin, Iberia or anywhere else.

Dutch Beakers also have excess hunter-gatherer ancestry, and this is likely to be from Blatterhohle_MN-like farmers from the Lower Rhine and surrounds.

Finn
10-12-2020, 11:34 AM
That's not what I meant. It's been obvious for a long time that the source of farmer ancestry in early Bell Beakers and Corded Ware was Globular Amphora and probably TRB. That is, North-Central Euro farmers, not those from the Carpathian Basin, Iberia or anywhere else.

Dutch Beakers also have excess hunter-gatherer ancestry, and this is likely to be from Blatterhohle_MN-like farmers from the Lower Rhine and surrounds.

To be more precise Generalissimo the NE Dutch NW German BB are SGC blended with TRB-West, in the BB time this went further.....

https://adnaera.com/2018/09/09/a-first-and-intriguing-glimpse-at-trb-west-group-adna/
and
https://www.sidestone.com/books/ceci-n-est-pas-une-hache


TRB-Tiefstichkeramik may represent the fusion of both of the EEF streams (Mediterranean/Cardial, and Danubian/LBK, including their differing HG substrate), with North European post-Kongemose HG traditions.


The origin of TRB cosmology as encountered in the netherlands would thus have developed in southern scandinavia only a few centuries before 3400 Bc. it originated during a time when people were abandoning their ways of life as hunter-gatherers and adopted agriculture. although the ertebølle people had been in contact with farmers and agricultural products for centuries, their culture, seen from an archaeological perspective, appeared to be stable. These contacts did not trigger the adoption of agriculture (see Klassen 2004). only hundreds of years after coming into contact with the neolithic farmers did the ertebølle people fully adopt farming, and the tRB culture developed. something changed in ertebølle society between 4100-3500 Bc that made it possible for agriculture to be adopted.

Riverman
10-12-2020, 11:37 AM
That's not what I meant. It's been obvious for a long time that the source of farmer ancestry in early Bell Beakers and Corded Ware was Globular Amphora and probably TRB. That is, North-Central Euro farmers, not those from the Carpathian Basin, Iberia or anywhere else.

Dutch Beakers also have excess hunter-gatherer ancestry, and this is likely to be from Blatterhohle_MN-like farmers from the Lower Rhine and surrounds.

Absolutely. Actually forager ancestry from Western Europe makes a better fit than Neolithic specimen.

Finn
10-12-2020, 12:23 PM
Absolutely. Actually forager ancestry from Western Europe makes a better fit than Neolithic specimen.

And once again, read the latests archeologist works, in the Dutch Beaker (NE Dutch/ NW Germany) case the HG came NOT from SW Europe but from the Ertebölle area.
Take a map and you see that the breeding ground of the Beakers is not only congruent with the Single Grave but follows quite close the North European (German) plain. The Northern Lowland so to say.

From the Neolithics to the whole Bronze Age and may be later these are the 'archeological' and in most respects also the 'genetic' clines in the Netherlands:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/1hlrk1e1bkp.19.42.png

Riverman
10-12-2020, 12:25 PM
I just want a proof and I hope they find good samples from all candidates, this means different times and cultures. I just say its not enough right now, probably you are right, I don't deny that.

Finn
10-12-2020, 02:36 PM
I just want a proof and I hope they find good samples from all candidates, this means different times and cultures. I just say its not enough right now, probably you are right, I don't deny that.

I think our knowledge regarding this will always stay partial, but the archeological and genetic evidences are pointing into the direction of on overlap between the Single Grave in casu Protruding Foot Beaker and the Dutch/ Rhenish Bell Beakers.

And related to the topic I just rer read the text of Gerhardt (1976) on several places in te text he opened the possibility of a connection with corded ware even with single grave, may be in that time could not make a definitive link.

The thesis of BS Walter about the more 'efficient' skull, more spherical and thin was, related to what Gerhardt has shown, an eyeopener to me. It's really congruent wit a a more sedentary, agricultural life style of originally herders and also in dealing with a more complex society (the Bell Beaker package). They made an evolutionary step!

In a posting you talked about 'spirit', in this respect compare a quote of a modern archeologist like John Prescott about the spirit of the Bell Beakers 'were probably related to the inherently expansive pastoral ideology, bolstered by a male warrior ideal, wanderlust, ideologically encouraged travelling/knowledge seeking, but also resource prospecting in a world rapidly embracing metallurgy and trade in exotica' (Prescott 2012) with that of of an old archeologist like Pia Laviosa -Zambotti, she stated about the Bell Beakers as 'civilizers' and bearers of a 'internationalist, expansive, commercial spirit' (Laviosa -Zambotti 1950)...what a resemblance...but may be at the same time, that's may be all too much honor :biggrin1:

Riverman
10-12-2020, 02:40 PM
I think our knowledge regarding this will always stay partial, but the archeological and genetic evidences are pointing into the direction of on overlap between the Single Grave in casu Protruding Foot Beaker and the Dutch/ Rhenish Bell Beakers.

And related to the topic I just rer read the text of Gerhardt (1976) on several places in te text he opened the possibility of a connection with corded ware even with single grave, but didn't may be in that time could not make a link.

The thesis of BS Walter about the more 'efficient' skull, more spherical and thin was, related to what Gerhardt has shown, an eyeopener to me. It's really congruent wit a a more sedentary, agricultural life style of originally herders and also in dealing with a more complex society (the Bell Beaker package). They made an evolutionary step!

In a posting you talked about 'spirit', in this respect compare a quote of a modern archeologist like John Prescott about the spirit of the Bell Beakers 'were probably related to the inherently expansive pastoral ideology, bolstered by a male warrior ideal, wanderlust, ideologically encouraged travelling/knowledge seeking, but also resource prospecting in a world rapidly embracing metallurgy and trade in exotica' (Prescott 2012) with that of of an old archeologist like Pia Laviosa -Zambotti, she stated about the Bell Beakers as 'civilizers' and bearers of a 'internationalist, expansive, commercial spirit' (Laviosa -Zambotti 1950)...what a resemblance...but may be at the same time, that's may be all too much honor :biggrin1:

That idea was based on Bell Beakers being primarily an elite, traders and miners, but now we know, that was not the case. Because if it would have been true, there wouldn't have been such a high replacement rate. They were much more clanish and tribal from my point of view.

Finn
10-12-2020, 04:33 PM
That idea was based on Bell Beakers being primarily an elite, traders and miners, but now we know, that was not the case. Because if it would have been true, there wouldn't have been such a high replacement rate. They were much more clanish and tribal from my point of view.

Yes I recognize that nevertheless, the mobile, expansive and maritime character of the Bell Beakers is still a thing:

From the late 3rd millennium this inland economic system, variously termed Corded Ware, Single Grave, and Battle Axe cultures, was complemented by a maritime counterpart in the form of the Bell Beaker cultures that expanded along the western Mediterranean and along the Atlantic façade before they moved inland, but they never reached further east than Hungary. They brought with them metallurgical knowledge, in addition to maritime skills, and they migrated as skilled artisans according to recent strontium isotope analyses of teeth and bone (Price et al. 2007; Heyd 2007; Vander Linden 2007). The beginning of the 2nd millennium saw the integration between these two social and cultural traditions, supplemented with a new bronze technology that was able to mine and distribute large quantities of metal throughout Europe (Harrison and Heyd 2007).
https://www.academia.edu/236975/Proto_Indo_European_Languages_and_Institutions_An_ archaeological_Approach

Michalis Moriopoulos
10-12-2020, 05:19 PM
So you've got the odd-looking brachycephalic, planoccipital Beakers giving rise to the longheaded "Nordid" Northwestern Europeans while the distinct leptomorphic, dolichocephalic Corded groups gave rise to millions of shortheaded "Osteuropids." You got to admit, it's a bit amusing.

That should tell you all you need to know about the possibility of rapid evolution through selection, which we've seen with depigmentation and lactase persistence, too. No invasions necessary.

Finn
10-12-2020, 05:35 PM
So you've got the odd-looking brachycephalic, planoccipital Beakers giving rise to the longheaded "Nordid" Northwestern Europeans while the distinct leptomorphic, dolichocephalic Corded groups gave rise to millions of shortheaded "Osteuropids." You got to admit, it's a bit amusing.

That should tell you all you need to know about the possibility of rapid evolution through selection, which we've seen with depigmentation and lactase persistence, too. No invasions necessary.

Yep, and some in NW Europe still have that odd look:behindsofa:

Its indeed quite remarkable that out of robust dolichocephalic types this oddity was derived (more spherical skull, thinner vault)....they spread all around the place from Ireland to Norway into the Lech Valley you name it.

And during BA this phenotype went en marge. It's indeed fascinating stuff Michael, capricious!:thumb:

Riverman
10-12-2020, 05:51 PM
So you've got the odd-looking brachycephalic, planoccipital Beakers giving rise to the longheaded "Nordid" Northwestern Europeans while the distinct leptomorphic, dolichocephalic Corded groups gave rise to millions of shortheaded "Osteuropids." You got to admit, it's a bit amusing.

That should tell you all you need to know about the possibility of rapid evolution through selection, which we've seen with depigmentation and lactase persistence, too. No invasions necessary.

The decisive point is that you have to treat every case of phenotypical change on its own. There can be single or multiple reasons for it, and unless you have all the data, you can't properly determine the cause(s). The ancient DNA gives us the breakthrough by offering genetic data for the known transitions. So we can look at a given prehistoric population, how they looked and which genetic traits they had before, during and after a given cultural or physical transition. Its all in the data, its not "one size fits all" solution. Because what can come up by natural selection, alone, can also be caused by a combination of selection and admixture, or admixture alone. Its up to the case in question what's the truth. Like with the immobility vs. mobility, pots not people, there is no general rule which fits all the time. On the long run, like with LP, we will be able to first determine were it came from, how and probably why it spread, that's evolutionary biology in the making.

Roaring
10-12-2020, 06:13 PM
So you've got the odd-looking brachycephalic, planoccipital Beakers giving rise to the longheaded "Nordid" Northwestern Europeans while the distinct leptomorphic, dolichocephalic Corded groups gave rise to millions of shortheaded "Osteuropids." You got to admit, it's a bit amusing.

That should tell you all you need to know about the possibility of rapid evolution through selection, which we've seen with depigmentation and lactase persistence, too. No invasions necessary.

Interestingly enough there is another change going on in Eastern Europe, massive debrachicephalisation, there was a series of studies, all showing that it's not only acceleration of height was happening over the past half of the century, but also increase in head length. Russians and Poles lost about 3 CI points over the last decades.

https://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/meon8/debrachy1.jpg

alexfritz
10-12-2020, 10:34 PM
So you've got the odd-looking brachycephalic, planoccipital Beakers giving rise to the longheaded "Nordid" Northwestern Europeans while the distinct leptomorphic, dolichocephalic Corded groups gave rise to millions of shortheaded "Osteuropids." You got to admit, it's a bit amusing.

That should tell you all you need to know about the possibility of rapid evolution through selection, which we've seen with depigmentation and lactase persistence, too. No invasions necessary.

in last years paper on sardinia this was an observation
it was long thought that the differing craniometric features of the BAs were a sign of a new intruding population

this cranio-facial paper (https://www2.muse.it/pubblicazioni/7/26/FlorisG1994_PA26_The%20human%20population%20of%20S ardinia_IMM&OCR.pdf) highlights the morphometric variants of each prehistoric group from the MN - LBA and this genetic paper (https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-14523-6/MediaObjects/41467_2020_14523_MOESM1_ESM.pdf) highlights that each of the said prehistoric groups is the continuity of its predecessor (supp.Table2 p40) with no signs of a new intrusive pop. (supp.Table1 p36); changing the narrative and indicating that the morphometric changes must indeed have been in situ devs.

Finn
10-13-2020, 11:00 AM
in last years paper on sardinia this was an observation
it was long thought that the differing craniometric features of the BAs were a sign of a new intruding population

this cranio-facial paper (https://www2.muse.it/pubblicazioni/7/26/FlorisG1994_PA26_The%20human%20population%20of%20S ardinia_IMM&OCR.pdf) highlights the morphometric variants of each prehistoric group from the MN - LBA and this genetic paper (https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-14523-6/MediaObjects/41467_2020_14523_MOESM1_ESM.pdf) highlights that each of the said prehistoric groups is the continuity of its predecessor (supp.Table2 p40) with no signs of a new intrusive pop. (supp.Table1 p36); changing the narrative and indicating that the morphometric changes must indeed have been in situ devs.

Thanks Alex fascinating!

alan
10-13-2020, 09:58 PM
I understand there was a move to rounder skulls across northern Europe in the high Medieval era that cannot be explained by population change. It must be something else. Just off the top of my head, I seem to recall that c. 950-1250AD/1000-1300AD had peak warm conditions in northern Europe. This was followed by the Little Ice Age era from the close of the Medieval period to the mid 19th century. The warm spell seems to coincide closely with the period of skulls becoming rounder. I understand that the Medieval warm period of northern Europe was a warm but moist era. Another remarkable thing is the very same period also coincides with a rapid doubling of the population of Europe and 10 years being added to life expectancy. As for why a warm moist period with a sudden huge population growth coincides closely with a move to rounder skulls, I have not got the foggiest idea. But the three things overlap remarkably. This era is followed by population collapse, cold conditions (getting very cool by the end of the Medieval era) and skulls lengthening again. Its almost like the rounder skulls only proliferated in the most favourable climate/population growth conditions of the 10th to 13th centuries. I wonder if the beaker era has any parallels? I have read in the past that the beaker era commenced in an era of favourable climate for NW Europe (though it didnt last). I have also read in the past that there was a marked upturn in population and agricultural activity in the north too.

Staystay
11-20-2020, 05:28 PM
'About 100 of these graves are known today, 20 of which yielded flint arrowheads. Several modes of deposit could be identified for these arrowheads: unhafted arrowheads included in a container placed in the grave; several arrows placed next to each other beside the body; or a quiver (https://outdoorsly.org/best-bow-quiver/) full of arrows placed on the dead body.'
Yes, I've heard of it but I'm not sure which research may give you detailed information.

davit
11-24-2020, 09:54 AM
What do we think of why some Europeans have prominent brow ridges while others don't? WHG trait?