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grumpydaddybear
01-10-2020, 01:03 AM
High-resolution inference of genetic relationships among Jewish populations | European Journal of Human Genetics

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0542-y

Abstract
Recent studies have used genome-wide single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) to investigate relationships among various
Jewish populations and their non-Jewish historical neighbors, often focusing on small subsets of populations from a limited
geographic range or relatively small samples within populations. Here, building on the significant progress that has emerged
from genomic SNP studies in the placement of Jewish populations in relation to non-Jewish populations, we focus on
population structure among Jewish populations. In particular, we examine Jewish population-genetic structure in samples
that span much of the historical range of Jewish populations in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia.
Combining 429 newly genotyped samples from 29 Jewish and 3 non-Jewish populations with previously reported genotypes
on Jewish and non-Jewish populations, we investigate variation in 2789 individuals from 114 populations at 486,592
genome-wide autosomal SNPs. Using multidimensional scaling analysis, unsupervised model-based clustering, and
population trees, we find that, genetically, most Jewish samples fall into four major clusters that largely represent four
culturally defined groupings, namely the Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, North African, and Sephardi subdivisions of the Jewish
population. We detect high-resolution population structure, including separation of the Ashkenazi and Sephardi groups and
distinctions among populations within the Mizrahi and North African groups. Our results refine knowledge of Jewish
population-genetic structure and contribute to a growing understanding of the distinctive genetic ancestry evident in closely
related but historically separate Jewish communities.

Note: Paper available on Sci-hub

StillWater
01-10-2020, 03:07 AM
Who ever gets me access to this paper becomes an honorary Litvak.

passenger
01-10-2020, 03:12 AM
Who ever gets me access to this paper becomes an honorary Litvak.


I'm of partial Litvak descent anyway, but you can throw more points my way.

grumpydaddybear
01-10-2020, 03:15 AM
Who ever gets me access to this paper becomes an honorary Litvak.

:)


I would PM it to you, but I couldn't find the way to attach files...

passenger
01-10-2020, 03:39 AM
It's an interesting report, but some of the nomenclature they use for Jewish subdivisions highlights what I suspect to be a common problem among scientific researchers, which is a lack of attention to historical research. For instance, they seem to treat Mediterranean Jewish groups as distinct entities, rather than as part of a Sephardic continuum, wherein Iberian Jews and their descendants may have a greater or lesser expression depending on their prevalence over older local Jewish populations and/or relative newcomers from other regions. "Sephardim" are not just Eastern Sephardim, and Eastern Sephardim, while clearly different, are not a discrete entity from North African Jews. They also are clearly not wholly descended from Iberian Jews, as the article implies.

I'm very curious to know where they got the "Spanish" Jewish samples from and why they seem to plot so closely to Turkish Jews. I rarely hear anything about Spanish Jewish test populations.

StillWater
01-10-2020, 03:43 AM
Notably, some Mizrahi
individuals clustered with Ashkenazi populations, and vice
versa, a pattern seen primarily among populations from the
former Soviet Union and possibly reflecting internal
migration during the Soviet period.

Why is StillWater always right?

StillWater
01-10-2020, 03:53 AM
Why is StillWater always right?

Their Soviet explanation is asinine, unless they didn't check their subjects at all. Those with Mizrachi ancestry from the Soviet period will know it. Much better explanations: migration into East Europe when North Caucasus was included into the Pale, later Mizrachi migrations, such as is said about Gomel, and/or due to both Soviet Mizrachim and Soviet Ashkenazim (from their East Knaanic) descent, sharing common Jewish descent from Greek Black Sea colonies.

StillWater
01-10-2020, 03:55 AM
Their Soviet explanation is retarded, unless they didn't check their subjects at all. Those with Mizrachi ancestry from the Soviet period will know it. Much better explanations: migration into East Europe when North Caucasus was included into the Pale, later Mizrachi migrations, such as is said about Gomel, and/or due to both Soviet Mizrachim and Soviet Ashkenazim (from their East Knaanic) descent, sharing common Jewish descent from Greek Black Sea colonies.

Mind you, I did post Soviet Ashkenazi Gedmatch samples and pointed out that they have evidence of higher Mizrachi admixture by their West Asian in K13. I think I posted 40-70 samples.

StillWater
01-10-2020, 04:09 AM
Lol they only used 1 Belarusian Jewish sample in the set. These "Russian Jewish" samples are going to be at least in part, if not mostly, descended from Belarusian Jews (and Eastern Ukrainian Jews)

hartaisarlag
01-10-2020, 04:11 AM
Mind you, I did post Soviet Ashkenazi Gedmatch samples and pointed out that they have evidence of higher Mizrachi admixture by their West Asian in K13. I think I posted 40-70 samples.

That’s very different from clustering among Mizrahim, though.

StillWater
01-10-2020, 04:18 AM
That’s very different from clustering among Mizrahim, though.

That's PCA-dependent and I didn't have access to Mountain Jewish or Bukharian Jewish samples. It's not hard to get them to cluster. Model them on a few references, one being very similar to the coordinates for Georgian Jewish. Then, my sister comes out majority Georgian Jewish. Then have a bunch of typical Ashkenazim be a part of that set, that way the Georgian-Jewish like component will explain a ton of the variation (with Mizrachim and Ashkenazim present, despite my sister breaking that pattern - she's 1 sample relative to many others in the set). That Georgian Jewish-like component will become one of the principal components then. What you see then is her (an Ashkenazi) "clustering among Mizrachim". The clustering is the result of common descent, as opposed to common descent being the result of clustering (in this case). Their "clustering" is a mere consequence of what I've observed.

Seabass
01-10-2020, 05:11 AM
Okay the one 'Italian Jew' from this study grouped with thr Ashkenazi Jews looks rather very gentile Italian no? I would expect Italys Ashkenazi community to fit within the broader Ashkenazi genetic realm.

Happy to see three new Iberian Jews as opposed to just the one strange Belmonte Jew in the Behar study yonks ago. Slightly annoyed that they didn't analyse the three iberian Jews up against the Moroccan and Algerian Jews which some may in part descend significantly from Iberian Jews. The study would be a lot more informative with italqi and Romaniotes included too. I'm intrigued to see 1-2 of the 3 Iberian Jews plot closely to Turkish Jews.

eolien
01-10-2020, 08:38 AM
"Samples. We obtained 535 samples from people representing 32 populations, 29 Jewish and 3 non-Jewish (Karaite, Palestinian, Tajik)."

Karaite non-Jewish? I guess this is the new Israeli reality :(

eolien
01-10-2020, 12:29 PM
Okay the one 'Italian Jew' from this study grouped with thr Ashkenazi Jews looks rather very gentile Italian no? I would expect Italys Ashkenazi community to fit within the broader Ashkenazi genetic realm.

Happy to see three new Iberian Jews as opposed to just the one strange Belmonte Jew in the Behar study yonks ago. Slightly annoyed that they didn't analyse the three iberian Jews up against the Moroccan and Algerian Jews which some may in part descend significantly from Iberian Jews. The study would be a lot more informative with italqi and Romaniotes included too. I'm intrigued to see 1-2 of the 3 Iberian Jews plot closely to Turkish Jews.

Who are these Iberian Jews if i may ask, since i am not familiar with such a group?

In my limited understanding, you can easily skew a PCA map by choosing which populations to include. For example you exclude the southern italians and suddenly the sephardic jews are next to Cyprus (i hope that this was not done intentionally).

It is also unfortunate that they did not include syrian jews and syrians. The whole article does not add much compared to what we already know. This is unfortunate because in Israel you can find any jewish sample you want. I think it is an unwillingness to ask controversial questions.

StillWater
01-10-2020, 01:15 PM
"Samples. We obtained 535 samples from people representing 32 populations, 29 Jewish and 3 non-Jewish (Karaite, Palestinian, Tajik)."

Karaite non-Jewish? I guess this is the new Israeli reality :(

The only thing this has to do with Israel is act as an excuse to criticize it. This is a widespread opinion among the orthodox.

Principe
01-10-2020, 01:25 PM
Quick question to the users that have access are any Y samples provided?

Targum
01-10-2020, 01:31 PM
The only thing this has to do with Israel is act as an excuse to criticize it. This is a widespread opinion among the orthodox.

It is a universally held position in Halakhah( Jewish jurisprudence) that Karaites (Qaraim) are not Jews legally. It is also recognized that they are descended from Jews, and if they renounce the Karaite “heresy “ before a Beit Din they can re-enter the Jewish community and marry within it, provided there is no provable evidence of mamzerut arising from a forbidden marriage, itself a consequence of a Karaite divorce not acceptable under Halakhah.

eolien
01-10-2020, 02:09 PM
The only thing this has to do with Israel is act as an excuse to criticize it. This is a widespread opinion among the orthodox.

This is a trollish comment but it is a scientific paper published in majority by Israeli authors, new samples are also from Israel but I see for the first time that an academic journal claiming that Karaites are not Jews. Usually they make a distinction between rabbinic and non-rabbinic Jews. IMO quite disturbing. Just think what happened to all the karaites in eretz israel?

StillWater
01-10-2020, 02:33 PM
This is a trollish comment but it is a scientific paper published in majority by Israeli authors, new samples are also from Israel but I see for the first time that an academic journal claiming that Karaites are not Jews. Usually they make a distinction between rabbinic and non-rabbinic Jews. IMO quite disturbing. Just think what happened to all the karaites in eretz israel?

Whose comment is trollish? Google the lead author's name. You'll find that her middle name implies that she either is orthodox or grew up orthodox. She isn't the average Israeli.

Her middle name isn't used in the paper.

Erikl86
01-10-2020, 03:05 PM
This is a trollish comment but it is a scientific paper published in majority by Israeli authors, new samples are also from Israel but I see for the first time that an academic journal claiming that Karaites are not Jews. Usually they make a distinction between rabbinic and non-rabbinic Jews. IMO quite disturbing. Just think what happened to all the karaites in eretz israel?

Actually, despite the fact that I myself do view Karaites as Jews, it makes perfect sense genetically to distinguish them from Jews, especially in a study that split hairs over substructure among the different Jewish communities.

Considering:

Karaites haven't been marrying with Jews for almost a millennia.
Karaites define Jewishness patrilinealy, so one would expect perhaps different autosomal results as opposed to Rabbinic Jews which define Jewishness matrilinealy


Don't forget that before I've posted here the results from the Egyptian Karaites, we were all in the dark about what would they look like. And before Kevin Brook's uniparental analysis on Karaites, we didn't know they would share the same subclades.

And last but not least, you do bash Israel whenever you got the chance....

grumpydaddybear
01-11-2020, 12:55 AM
Quick question to the users that have access are any Y samples provided?

I did not see any references to data availability in the paper or the Supp.

Would love to see the Ys as well!

Seabass
01-11-2020, 01:01 PM
Who are these Iberian Jews if i may ask, since i am not familiar with such a group?

In my limited understanding, you can easily skew a PCA map by choosing which populations to include. For example you exclude the southern italians and suddenly the sephardic jews are next to Cyprus (i hope that this was not done intentionally).

It is also unfortunate that they did not include syrian jews and syrians. The whole article does not add much compared to what we already know. This is unfortunate because in Israel you can find any jewish sample you want. I think it is an unwillingness to ask controversial questions.

From the supplementary information this is what is said on the Iberian Jewish group 'One Portuguese Jewish sample from Behar et al. was merged with two new Spanish Jewish samples, and we used the label Iberian Jews for this group.' Unfortunately that doesn't say too much, but hopefully at least one of these Iberian Jews, definitely not the Belmonte one, could provide some clues as to the range Iberian descended Eastern Sephardic Jews are.

I'm glad that this study didn't include Southern Europeans in this study that are genetically close to Western Jews since this studies prime focus is the Jews and their very own Jewish specific substructure. Plenty of other studies have already highlighted the close genetic relationship between Southern Italians, Greek Islanders and Western Jews.

Syrian and Lebanese Jews would be great. You would think they could have found more to supplement this study in Israel. A little unfortunate too is the absence of Greek Jews. (Sephardic or Romaniote don't care)

35808

StillWater
01-11-2020, 02:40 PM
From the supplementary information this is what is said on the Iberian Jewish group 'One Portuguese Jewish sample from Behar et al. was merged with two new Spanish Jewish samples, and we used the label Iberian Jews for this group.' Unfortunately that doesn't say too much, but hopefully at least one of these Iberian Jews, definitely not the Belmonte one, could provide some clues as to the range Iberian descended Eastern Sephardic Jews are.

I'm glad that this study didn't include Southern Europeans in this study that are genetically close to Western Jews since this studies prime focus is the Jews and their very own Jewish specific substructure. Plenty of other studies have already highlighted the close genetic relationship between Southern Italians, Greek Islanders and Western Jews.

Syrian and Lebanese Jews would be great. You would think they could have found more to supplement this study in Israel. A little unfortunate too is the absence of Greek Jews. (Sephardic or Romaniote don't care)

35808

One, I'm reluctant to interpret too much from their PCAs till we know how they made them. Consider how many Ashkenazi individuals we had in the West vs East study. When Agamemnon plotted them, almost all were in the big Ashkenazi cloud, with a couple Yekkes closer to Sephardim. Regardless, none plotted among Mizrachim. Let's not forget the main point: that all 471 Ashkenazim plotted in the Western Jewish end of the East Med continuum in the same PCA made by Agamemnon. Meanwhile, this study had how many Ashkenazi samples? (not nearly as many and lol - 1 Belarusian Jew). And about 5 plot in the Mizrachi cluster. As I implied in another post, there is something particular happening in their PCA, that is using a principal component previous PCAs didn't (I'm thinking one of them similar to IRN_HASANLU_IA). When I modeled all the Ashkenazim in that West vs East study to isolate the Mizrachi component, my sister didn't just appear at the top, but had 40% more than the next Ashkenazi, while there was a steady climb up till then. However, she still fell into Agamemnon's Ashkenazi cloud (albeit, what I think is the Mizrachi admixed end of that cloud). This study has about 5 Ashkenazim plotting among Mizrachim, despite relatively small samples sizes. All this implies is that the the 2 axis represent something we're not used to looking at.

StillWater
01-11-2020, 03:35 PM
One, I'm reluctant to interpret too much from their PCAs till we know how they made them. Consider how many Ashkenazi individuals we had in the West vs East study. When Agamemnon plotted them, almost all were in the big Ashkenazi cloud, with a couple Yekkes closer to Sephardim. Regardless, none plotted among Mizrachim. Let's not forget the main point: that all 471 Ashkenazim plotted in the Western Jewish end of the East Med continuum in the same PCA made by Agamemnon. Meanwhile, this study had how many Ashkenazi samples? (not nearly as many and lol - 1 Belarusian Jew). And about 5 plot in the Mizrachi cluster. As I implied in another post, there is something particular happening in their PCA, that is using a principal component previous PCAs didn't (I'm thinking one of them similar to IRN_HASANLU_IA). When I modeled all the Ashkenazim in that West vs East study to isolate the Mizrachi component, my sister didn't just appear at the top, but had 40% more than the next Ashkenazi, while there was a steady climb up till then. However, she still fell into Agamemnon's Ashkenazi cloud (albeit, what I think is the Mizrachi admixed end of that cloud). This study has about 5 Ashkenazim plotting among Mizrachim, despite relatively small samples sizes. All this implies is that the the 2 axis represent something we're not used to looking at.

I just calculated: there exist approx 10 Ashkenazim at least as Mizrachi admixed as my sister (assuming the normal distribution applies). Consider how likely it is that by chance, they found 5 of those 10. Of course, their PCA is the reason.

StillWater
01-11-2020, 05:33 PM
Though, I've mentioned it once before, it was a long time ago. A parsimonious explanation for much of the variation in Ashkenazim are the Radhanites:

1. A lot, if not the vast majority, were Mizrachim
2. They're the ones who likely brought East Asian women to Eastern Europe (MRCA date going back to the silk road) and we find elevated West Asian among Ashkenazim in the exact same places where we find elevated East Asian among Ashkenazim.
3. They may even be responsible for the South Asian that's sometimes picked up:


Text of Ibn Khordadbeh's account
These merchants speak Arabic, Persian, Roman,[5] the Frank,[6] Spanish, and Slav languages. They journey from West to East, from East to West, partly on land, partly by sea. They transport from the West eunuchs, female slaves, boys, brocade, castor, marten and other furs, and swords. They take ship from Firanja (France[7]), on the Western Sea, and make for Farama (Pelusium). There they load their goods on camel-back and go by land to al-Kolzum (Suez), a distance of twenty-five farsakhs. They embark in the East Sea and sail from al-Kolzum to al-Jar and al-Jeddah, then they go to Sind, India, and China. On their return from China they carry back musk, aloes, camphor, cinnamon, and other products of the Eastern countries to al-Kolzum and bring them back to Farama, where they again embark on the Western Sea. Some make sail for Constantinople to sell their goods to the Romans; others go to the palace of the King of the Franks to place their goods. Sometimes these Jew merchants, when embarking from the land of the Franks, on the Western Sea, make for Antioch (at the head of the Orontes River); thence by land to al-Jabia (al-Hanaya on the bank of the Euphrates), where they arrive after three days’ march. There they embark on the Euphrates and reach Baghdad, whence they sail down the Tigris, to al-Obolla. From al-Obolla they sail for Oman, Sindh, Hind, and China.
These different journeys can also be made by land. The merchants that start from Spain or France go to Sus al-Aksa (in Morocco) and then to Tangier, whence they walk to Kairouan and the capital of Egypt. Thence they go to ar-Ramla, visit Damascus, al-Kufa, Baghdad, and al-Basra, cross Ahvaz, Fars, Kerman, Sind, Hind, and arrive in China.
Sometimes, also, they take the route behind Rome and, passing through the country of the Slavs, arrive at Khamlidj, the capital of the Khazars. They embark on the Jorjan Sea, arrive at Balkh, betake themselves from there across the Oxus, and continue their journey toward Yurt, Toghuzghuz, and from there to China.[8]

Would be interesting we could find some South Asian MTDNA in Ashkenazim.

And of course, the one Mizrachi YDNA clade we have among Ashkenazim with MRCA dates also aligns with this period and the MRCA for the East Asian women: https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC13184/

Note that jewishdna.net observes: "No persons on the Germanic part of the Ashkenazi countries is reported in this group."

StillWater
01-12-2020, 02:53 AM
And of course, the one Mizrachi YDNA clade we have among Ashkenazim with MRCA dates also aligns with this period and the MRCA for the East Asian women: https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC13184/

Note that jewishdna.net observes: "No persons on the Germanic part of the Ashkenazi countries is reported in this group."

It's worth noting that this clade is more evidence of a Mizrachi entrance into Knaan Yevan: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR-M124?iframe=yresults

There is a Romaniote member in the Mizrachi subgroup of R-FGC13184. However, I'm having a hard time understanding his entry for his ancestor. Is he saying he descends from a migration of Turkey to Georgia to Greece? Given that the Turkish location is Eastern (Erzurum), an initial migration from Iran/Iraq is close by. More so, only one Polish Jewish member in it, rest being much closer to the Russian border.

It's worth noting that this mirrors Karaite migrations and ones we read of in Khazarian history (Jews migrating from Byzantium and Persia). Maybe this is the result of Babylon->Asia Minor->Greece->"Canaanite Greece" = "Knaan Yevan" (Belarus, Ukraine)

hartaisarlag
01-12-2020, 02:58 AM
There is a Romaniote member in the Mizrachi subgroup of R-FGC13184. However, I'm having a hard time understanding his entry for his ancestor. Is he saying he descends from a migration of Turkey to Georgia to Greece? Given that the Turkish location is Eastern (Erzurum), an initial migration from Iran/Iraq is close by. More so, only one Polish Jewish member in it, rest being much closer to the Russian border.

Google "Greek-Pasinler(TUR)-->L.Tsintskaro(GEO)" — seems to be attached to a good number of kits in different haplogroups. Someone should contact the kit manager in this case.

StillWater
01-12-2020, 03:11 AM
Google "Greek-Pasinler(TUR)-->L.Tsintskaro(GEO)" — seems to be attached to a good number of kits in different haplogroups. Someone should contact the kit manager in this case.

After googling it, this might be an example of what Agamemnon spoke of, and the migration listed is typical of the ethnicity in the rest of the kits. These seem to be Pontic Greeks and this particular one is almost surely a case of one with a patrilineal Jewish ancestor. Of course, the surname sounds suggestive of recent Jewish origin, but Greeks may have it too. It also shows that same pattern that Agamemnon observed (assuming this guy is also Pontic) in his Cohen subclade - that of mostly far eastern Ashkenazim (Litvaks in that particular case), with some Pontics.

edit: think I found the clarification: "Greek from Pasinler (Lower Tsintskaro), Turkey" https://jewishdna.net/AB-085b-dataFTDNA.html

Seems he's a Pontic Greek. Agamemnon, where art thou?

hartaisarlag
01-12-2020, 03:23 AM
After googling it, this might be an example of what Agamemnon spoke of, and the migration listed is typical of the ethnicity in the rest of the kits. These seem to be Pontic Greeks and this particular one is almost surely a case of one with a patrilineal Jewish ancestor. Of course, the surname sounds suggestive of recent Jewish origin, but Greeks may have it too. It also shows that same pattern that Agamemnon observed (assuming this guy is also Pontic) in his Cohen subclade - that of mostly far eastern Ashkenazim (Litvaks in that particular case), with some Pontics.

edit: think I found the clarification: "Greek from Pasinler (Lower Tsintskaro), Turkey" https://jewishdna.net/AB-085b-dataFTDNA.html

Seems he's a Pontic Greek. Agamemnon, where art thou?

Good synthesis—this looks big.

Táltos
01-13-2020, 03:16 AM
Hi everyone,
Please refrain from using links to Sci Hub. The team agreed back in 2016 that it was in violation of our Terms of Service, section 4.

Please review. Thanks.
https://anthrogenica.com/faq.php

hartaisarlag
01-13-2020, 04:15 AM
Hi everyone,
Please refrain from using links to Sci Hub. The team agreed back in 2016 that it was in violation of our Terms of Service, section 4.

Please review. Thanks.
https://anthrogenica.com/faq.php

Again, happy to share the PDF, obtained via kosher institutional access. PMs welcome.

StillWater
01-13-2020, 04:27 AM
Again, happy to share the PDF, obtained via kosher institutional access. PMs welcome.

I'm a graduate of SciHubU

hartaisarlag
01-13-2020, 04:33 AM
I'm a graduate of SciHubU

OK Litvak

jetshop
01-13-2020, 07:55 AM
I'm a graduate of SciHubU

When I'm off campus, it actually is simpler and easier to read papers through SciHub than it is going through the official portal owned by my university.

chocoholic
01-15-2020, 05:05 AM
Okay the one 'Italian Jew' from this study grouped with thr Ashkenazi Jews looks rather very gentile Italian no? I would expect Italys Ashkenazi community to fit within the broader Ashkenazi genetic realm.

Happy to see three new Iberian Jews as opposed to just the one strange Belmonte Jew in the Behar study yonks ago. Slightly annoyed that they didn't analyse the three iberian Jews up against the Moroccan and Algerian Jews which some may in part descend significantly from Iberian Jews. The study would be a lot more informative with italqi and Romaniotes included too. I'm intrigued to see 1-2 of the 3 Iberian Jews plot closely to Turkish Jews.

I responded to the DM you sent last week regarding Italkim. I think that compared to Ashkenazim and even Sephardim they plot more like Gentile southern Italians in some cases. This was the case for a Calabrian with an Italki grandparent.

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/general-interest/dna-and-genealogy-for-beginners/21067-italian-jews/page2

StillWater
01-15-2020, 05:46 AM
I responded to the DM you sent last week regarding Italkim. I think that compared to Ashkenazim and even Sephardim they plot more like Gentile southern Italians in some cases. This was the case for a Calabrian with an Italki grandparent.

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/general-interest/dna-and-genealogy-for-beginners/21067-italian-jews/page2

Why wouldn't someone who is 1/4 Italki and 3/4 Calabrian plot like a Southern Italian?

chocoholic
01-15-2020, 07:59 AM
I meant that his DNA showed up as almost 100% Italian on 23andme, which surprised me. Barely any Middle Eastern or Ashkenazi DNA showed up for him.

Seabass
01-18-2020, 12:05 PM
Any chance the autosomal data will become available to the public and used in G25? From this study we have the below...

* 1 Djerban Tunisian Jew
* 2 Egyptian Jews (do not appear all that Sephardic and may likely be Karaite)
* 1 Iberian Jew that looks considerably close to Eastern Sephardic Jews
* Some Algerian Jews finally
* Better quality and quantity of Bulgarian, Turkish and Tunisian Jews.
* A large number of Moroccan Jews, with a small group showing a potential to maybe cline towards one of the Iberian Jews.


I meant that his DNA showed up as almost 100% Italian on 23andme, which surprised me. Barely any Middle Eastern or Ashkenazi DNA showed up for him.

That's quite peculiar, because the one Sicilian I shared DNA with on 23andme, at 50% threshold he comes out 70% Italian with considerable MENA, yet at the 90% conservative setting his 'Italian' shrinks to a level of 20%. Eastern Sephardic Jews at 90% conservative setting usually never exceed 5% 'Italian' and generally get much below.

StillWater
01-18-2020, 06:29 PM
Any chance the autosomal data will become available to the public and used in G25? From this study we have the below...

* 1 Djerban Tunisian Jew
* 2 Egyptian Jews (do not appear all that Sephardic and may likely be Karaite)
* 1 Iberian Jew that looks considerably close to Eastern Sephardic Jews
* Some Algerian Jews finally
* Better quality and quantity of Bulgarian, Turkish and Tunisian Jews.
* A large number of Moroccan Jews, with a small group showing a potential to maybe cline towards one of the Iberian Jews.



That's quite peculiar, because the one Sicilian I shared DNA with on 23andme, at 50% threshold he comes out 70% Italian with considerable MENA, yet at the 90% conservative setting his 'Italian' shrinks to a level of 20%. Eastern Sephardic Jews at 90% conservative setting usually never exceed 5% 'Italian' and generally get much below.

Given that they labeled Karaites as non-Jews, it's hard to think they forgot to check whether the Egyptian Jews were Karaites.

chocoholic
02-01-2020, 04:46 AM
Any chance the autosomal data will become available to the public and used in G25? From this study we have the below...

* 1 Djerban Tunisian Jew
* 2 Egyptian Jews (do not appear all that Sephardic and may likely be Karaite)
* 1 Iberian Jew that looks considerably close to Eastern Sephardic Jews
* Some Algerian Jews finally
* Better quality and quantity of Bulgarian, Turkish and Tunisian Jews.
* A large number of Moroccan Jews, with a small group showing a potential to maybe cline towards one of the Iberian Jews.



That's quite peculiar, because the one Sicilian I shared DNA with on 23andme, at 50% threshold he comes out 70% Italian with considerable MENA, yet at the 90% conservative setting his 'Italian' shrinks to a level of 20%. Eastern Sephardic Jews at 90% conservative setting usually never exceed 5% 'Italian' and generally get much below.

He’s technically Italkim, not eastern Sephardic or even Sephardic.

StillWater
02-01-2020, 05:40 AM
He’s technically Italkim, not eastern Sephardic or even Sephardic.

You missed Seabass' point and your match is allegedly 1/4 Italki, right?

Seabass
02-01-2020, 08:41 AM
He’s technically Italkim, not eastern Sephardic or even Sephardic.

Well . . . This forum technically hasn't seen a autosomal result of a full Italqi Jew as far as I'm aware. I'm pretty sure sure the 'Italian Jews' in the G25 sheet are of Sephardic identity (not to say any may not descend from Italqim) I'm pretty sure this was concluded after some long discussions about it once in the major Western Jewish thread. Forget though if those samples are from one of the major Atzmon or Behar papers on autosomal Jewish DNA.

I would be most surprised and in a bit of disbelief though if modern Italqi Jews are not more Near Eastern shifted than gentile Southern Italians, as are the allegedly Sephardic Italian Jews. It would only make sense as Italqi branched from Romaniotes.

StillWater
02-01-2020, 02:44 PM
Well . . . This forum technically hasn't seen a autosomal result of a full Italqi Jew as far as I'm aware. I'm pretty sure sure the 'Italian Jews' in the G25 sheet are of Sephardic identity (not to say any may not descend from Italqim) I'm pretty sure this was concluded after some long discussions about it once in the major Western Jewish thread. Forget though if those samples are from one of the major Atzmon or Behar papers on autosomal Jewish DNA.

I would be most surprised and in a bit of disbelief though if modern Italqi Jews are not more Near Eastern shifted than gentile Southern Italians, as are the allegedly Sephardic Italian Jews. It would only make sense as Italqi branched from Romaniotes.

Who concluded it?

StillWater
02-01-2020, 03:09 PM
Here is my Italki match. He looks fully Italki to me by the family tree, though almost surely has some Ashkenazi and maybe Sephardi admixture, though distant - as implied by the translations of the Italian surnames in his tree:

StillWater
02-01-2020, 03:12 PM
Here is my Italki match. He looks fully Italki to me by the family tree, though almost surely has some Ashkenazi and maybe Sephardi admixture, though distant - as implied by the translations of the Italian surnames in his tree:

https://i.imgur.com/1M0fmpB.png

I don't understand how you guys got the illusion that Italkim are converted Italians.

passenger
02-01-2020, 06:12 PM
This is a MH ethnicity breakdown for a fully Italian Jewish match (my mother's) with all Italian Jewish, non-Ashkenazi surnames, going back at least two generations. I have other fully Italian Jewish matches, but a lot of them have high Ashkenazi percentages which seem to be connected to their Northern Italian surnames of Ashkenazi origin (like Morpurgo). This individual probably has Sephardic as well as Italki roots, but I think that's to be expected.

36132

Shamash
02-02-2020, 06:27 PM
Why haven't Yemenite Jews been included in this study? Are they too much alike Muslim Yemenis DNA-wise?

jetshop
02-02-2020, 10:20 PM
This is a MH ethnicity breakdown for a fully Italian Jewish match (my mother's) with all Italian Jewish, non-Ashkenazi surnames, going back at least two generations. I have other fully Italian Jewish matches, but a lot of them have high Ashkenazi percentages which seem to be connected to their Northern Italian surnames of Ashkenazi origin (like Morpurgo). This individual probably has Sephardic as well as Italki roots, but I think that's to be expected.

36132

How can you tell (without asking) if somebody Italian Jewish instead of a non-Jewish Italian who happened to clock some of a Jewish category on MyHeritage? I'm 99.1% AJ on 23andme, yet MyHeritage thinks I'm nearly 20% Greek, and I've also heard of cases in reverse when somebody with no AJ scores it on MH.

passenger
02-02-2020, 10:29 PM
How can you tell (without asking) if somebody Italian Jewish instead of a non-Jewish Italian who happened to clock some of a Jewish category on MyHeritage? I'm 99.1% AJ on 23andme, yet MyHeritage thinks I'm nearly 20% Greek, and I've also heard of cases in reverse when somebody with no AJ scores it on MH.

Well, I could never be entirely certain even if I asked, since nobody can be entirely certain even of their own ancestry. But generally I only post results of people who have a family tree with at least all four grandparents listed with surnames and locations (and preferably more generations). In this case, as I said, the individual has a family tree going back to at least their great-grandparents on all lines, and all of the surnames in the family tree are Italian names that appear on lists of known Italian Jewish surnames, and are not of Ashkenazi or obviously Sephardic origin (i.e. there could evidently be Ashkenazi or Sephardic ancestry farther back in the tree, but it's not obvious through the surnames).

passenger
02-02-2020, 10:34 PM
Well, I could never be entirely certain even if I asked, since nobody can be entirely certain even of their own ancestry. But generally I only post results of people who have a family tree with at least all four grandparents listed with surnames and locations (and preferably more generations). In this case, as I said, the individual has a family tree going back to at least their great-grandparents on all lines, and all of the surnames in the family tree are Italian names that appear on lists of known Italian Jewish surnames, and are not of Ashkenazi or obviously Sephardic origin (i.e. there could evidently be Ashkenazi or Sephardic ancestry farther back in the tree, but it's not obvious through the surnames).

Also, in this particular case, the profile picture of an individual (presumably the owner of the kit) praying in a synagogue is kind of a giveaway, not that that guarantees anything, haha.

chocoholic
02-03-2020, 11:37 PM
You missed Seabass' point and your match is allegedly 1/4 Italki, right?

Yes, at least that’s what he claims. His family was from Calabria. I don’t match him (I didn’t test with 23andme so he COULD match me, but who knows) but someone posted a link on the FTDNA forum.

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/general-interest/dna-and-genealogy-for-beginners/21067-italian-jews/page2

StillWater
02-04-2020, 12:20 AM
Yes, at least that’s what he claims. His family was from Calabria. I don’t match him (I didn’t test with 23andme so he COULD match me, but who knows) but someone posted a link on the FTDNA forum.

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/general-interest/dna-and-genealogy-for-beginners/21067-italian-jews/page2

I can't open the images, but this is clearly someone with distant Jewish/Neofitti ancestry, as opposed to a 1/4 Italki. You can tell this from his description.

chocoholic
02-04-2020, 01:47 PM
I can't open the images, but this is clearly someone with distant Jewish/Neofitti ancestry, as opposed to a 1/4 Italki. You can tell this from his description.

Okay, that makes more sense. I’m surprised the guy referred to his grandpa as Italki though, rather than Sephardic as most conversos do.

StillWater
02-04-2020, 03:09 PM
Okay, that makes more sense. I’m surprised the guy referred to his grandpa as Italki though, rather than Sephardic as most conversos do.

To be fair, I haven't even checked my Italki match surname-by-surname. I'm betting that full Italkim have similar commercial site results to Romaniotes.

chocoholic
02-04-2020, 06:31 PM
To be fair, I haven't even checked my Italki match surname-by-surname. I'm betting that full Italkim have similar commercial site results to Romaniotes.

That’s what I was thinking as well. I actually do have a ¼ Romaniote match and that part of her heritage is reflected through Middle Eastern and West Asian DNA on MyHeritage (she’s also ¼ Ashkenazi and gets 30% Ashkenazi).

adamg
02-17-2020, 10:35 AM
Davidski is using samples from this paper in G25 now.
Do you know link to the dataset somewhere on the net?

Seabass
02-17-2020, 10:42 AM
Davidski is using samples from this paper in G25 now.
Do you know link to the dataset somewhere on the net?

I seriously hope this is a fact and you're right, would be exciting nonetheless even if most those Jewish communities already are featured in the G25 sheet. I believe that paper has better quality samples (at least the more the merrier!) and some unusual ones that may help answer questions relating to intermixing between different Jewish diasporic/ethnic groups and one another.

I checked the G25 sheet and I don't see them yet. The various Ashkenazi groups recently added to G25 were from another random paper I thought on Schizophrenic patients (of Ashkenazi origin?) or something random.

StillWater
02-17-2020, 07:00 PM
I seriously hope this is a fact and you're right

Me too

StillWater
02-17-2020, 07:03 PM
My mom may have a full Italki match on MyHeritage:

46.1 Ashkenazi
7.7 Italian
7.2 Iberian
4.1 Greek and South Italian
10.7 West Asian
16.8 Sephardic
6.4 Middle Eastern

I don't recognize any of the surnames of being typically Ashkenazi-Italian, though there are a lot of Ashkenazi matches in common.

passenger
02-17-2020, 09:30 PM
My mom may have a full Italki match on MyHeritage:

46.1 Ashkenazi
7.7 Italian
7.2 Iberian
4.1 Greek and South Italian
10.7 West Asian
16.8 Sephardic
6.4 Middle Eastern

I don't recognize any of the surnames of being typically Ashkenazi-Italian, though there are a lot of Ashkenazi matches in common.

My mom and I have the same match. I do think he's fully Italian Jewish, though not necessarily "fully" Italki.

I have another similar match with mostly seemingly Italki names, but if you go back a few generations, one of the surnames in that tree is Italian Ashkenazi and another I believe is Provençal. I have to say though, I have the same doubts about finding someone who is "fully Italki" as I do about finding some who is "fully" Romaniote. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem likely to me that there are any pockets of Italkim that haven't mixed with Sephardim and/or Ashkenazim at some point over the centuries, even if they belong to Italian-rite communities.

Claudio
02-21-2020, 04:06 PM
My mom may have a full Italki match on MyHeritage:

46.1 Ashkenazi
7.7 Italian
7.2 Iberian
4.1 Greek and South Italian
10.7 West Asian
16.8 Sephardic
6.4 Middle Eastern

I don't recognize any of the surnames of being typically Ashkenazi-Italian, though there are a lot of Ashkenazi matches in common.


I have 4/5 Myheritage matches very much like the results you highlighted with location Italy,both on my Italian fathers side and separately through my mum on her account,with names like Gentili,Lussato,Coen,but it’s hard to say if the relatedness is through shared Ashkenazi?,Italian? or West Asian & Middle Eastern?
I think (and hope) that when MyHeritage finally update (with there promised larger selection of Western Jewish samples) that a lot of the West Asian & Middle Eastern will disappear for sephardim and anyone with genuine Sephardic ancestry or some such though this is depending on how they implement there newer sample selection into there existing Sephardic Catergory I guess?

StillWater
02-22-2020, 04:00 AM
I have 4/5 Myheritage matches very much like the results you highlighted with location Italy,both on my Italian fathers side and separately through my mum on her account,with names like Gentili,Lussato,Coen,but it’s hard to say if the relatedness is through shared Ashkenazi?,Italian? or West Asian & Middle Eastern?
I think (and hope) that when MyHeritage finally update (with there promised larger selection of Western Jewish samples) that a lot of the West Asian & Middle Eastern will disappear for sephardim and anyone with genuine Sephardic ancestry or some such though this is depending on how they implement there newer sample selection into there existing Sephardic Catergory I guess?

Think Beider said that Luzzatto is of Ashkenazi origin.

sdrucker
02-22-2020, 04:36 AM
I have 4/5 Myheritage matches very much like the results you highlighted with location Italy,both on my Italian fathers side and separately through my mum on her account,with names like Gentili,Lussato,Coen,but it’s hard to say if the relatedness is through shared Ashkenazi?,Italian? or West Asian & Middle Eastern?
I think (and hope) that when MyHeritage finally update (with there promised larger selection of Western Jewish samples) that a lot of the West Asian & Middle Eastern will disappear for sephardim and anyone with genuine Sephardic ancestry or some such though this is depending on how they implement there newer sample selection into there existing Sephardic Catergory I guess?

When is MyHeritage supposed to update? Just curious....what got me on Big Y testing and these groups wasn't being 87% or so Ashkenazi (with four known Ashkenazi grandparents), but what the remaining 13% was (Greek, Balkan, West Asian). Hope I don't found out that I'm 100% like Ancestry. LOL.

StillWater
02-23-2020, 12:53 AM
Here is a database of MTDNA w/ MRCA dates etc: http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/data/mtdna/the_tree/hg/ages.htm#

not all relevant clades are there, but should be helpful.

Seabass
10-25-2020, 12:34 PM
Davidski is using samples from this paper in G25 now.
Do you know link to the dataset somewhere on the net?

Does anyone know if the authors of this study have made the samples available to the public? In light of some pretty disappointing commercial DNA test updates recently, I'm now praying for some of these new ones to make G25 before modern samples are scrapped from it.