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TigerMW
01-24-2014, 09:10 PM
What do you think about this guy from the French project?
f128405 Gaspard Bonifas, 1700, Luxembourg

He has some similar STRs as this DF5 guy.
f75621 Harriss DF5+ 21-246-255-H

If we could get Bonifas to 111 markers that would be nice.

TigerMW
01-24-2014, 11:01 PM
Here is another from the French project although he lists Canada. He looks like a potential DF5+ but 111 markers would sure help in this case too.

f259489 Jerry La Flamme , b. abt 1836 and d. abt 1870

BonBonLaRue
01-25-2014, 04:12 PM
What do you think about this guy from the French project?
f128405 Gaspard Bonifas, 1700, Luxembourg

Bonifas est L21- http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage,frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Reith
10-20-2014, 08:17 PM
DF21 Continental over here. Northern Germany to be exact. Not really close to any others from what I have been told, though I know history well, I am still new at genetics. How can someone tell how old their mutation is? Someone once said that I branched off quite early from the rest of DF21, could this be the remainder of DF21s who did not go to the Isles?

rms2
10-21-2014, 11:54 AM
DF21 Continental over here. Northern Germany to be exact. Not really close to any others from what I have been told, though I know history well, I am still new at genetics. How can someone tell how old their mutation is? Someone once said that I branched off quite early from the rest of DF21, could this be the remainder of DF21s who did not go to the Isles?

Do you have any matches at 67 or more markers? If so, what are their surnames, if you wouldn't mind saying?

zaru7
10-21-2014, 05:46 PM
DF21 Continental over here. Northern Germany to be exact. Not really close to any others from what I have been told, though I know history well, I am still new at genetics. How can someone tell how old their mutation is? Someone once said that I branched off quite early from the rest of DF21, could this be the remainder of DF21s who did not go to the Isles?

Did you test with FTDNA? If so, is your haplotype available for viewing in the DF21 project?

I have just returned a very surprising DF21 result and I suspect that mine is continental. I discovered an NPE in my Y line and am trying to discern my genealogical origins. I have a grand total of 6 exact matches at 12 markers, and none save for my brother beyond that. I am guessing that my Y line comes from an underrepresented area. I have also designed with the help of Thomas and Astrid, a downstream DF21 panel that consists of the six identified "portal" snps that are directly below it. I am awaiting those results, and if I return ancestral, then I will have to take the Big Y plunge. My hope is that I can continue to move forward with limited snp testing until a price drop occurs with FGS or Big Y.

Reith
10-25-2014, 03:54 PM
Yes I am on FTDNA and in the DF21 project. I am still ungrouped though.

rms2
10-25-2014, 04:00 PM
Yes I am on FTDNA and in the DF21 project. I am still ungrouped though.

What do you mean by "ungrouped"? Do you mean you have not yet been placed in one of Mike Walsh's haplotype clusters?

Reith
10-25-2014, 04:04 PM
Group U10, DF21+ Misc

208773 Frederick Reith 1836 Hannover Lower Saxony Germany Germany R-DF21 13 23 14 11 11-14 12 13 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 20 29 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 17 19 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 36 15 9 16 12 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 11 9 14 12 10 11 11 30 12 12 24 13 10 10 19 15 18 14 24 17 12 15 24 12 25 18 10 14 17 9 12 11

Reith
10-25-2014, 04:04 PM
Maybe I should have said grouped with Misc people that are df21

rms2
10-25-2014, 04:06 PM
I guess you mean in the DF21 Project, right?

Celtarion
10-31-2014, 12:52 PM
Hi Everyone,

We have an other DF21+ from France:beerchug:

He will join soon the DF21 project under kit N131630 and has already joined France Hautes Alpes (French High Alps) where his family is coming from based on his research back to 1698 and also joined the french heritage project.

He got tested with Genographic Project, and has no STRs available.

Cheers,

Joss.

Reith
11-14-2014, 02:12 PM
Yes, that is correct. No grouping, just misc.

Rory Cain
03-14-2015, 03:25 AM
Did you test with FTDNA? If so, is your haplotype available for viewing in the DF21 project?

I have just returned a very surprising DF21 result and I suspect that mine is continental. I discovered an NPE in my Y line and am trying to discern my genealogical origins. I have a grand total of 6 exact matches at 12 markers, and none save for my brother beyond that. I am guessing that my Y line comes from an underrepresented area. I have also designed with the help of Thomas and Astrid, a downstream DF21 panel that consists of the six identified "portal" snps that are directly below it. I am awaiting those results, and if I return ancestral, then I will have to take the Big Y plunge. My hope is that I can continue to move forward with limited snp testing until a price drop occurs with FGS or Big Y.

Your post above says you are DF21+ but your profile aongside says you are DF5+. If you are DF5+, you would not bother with testing the "sons" of DF21, as you would automatically be Z246+ (and DF25+). Unless you have some aversion to joining projects, you might consider joining the R-DF21 Project and watching which sub-group we place your kit into.

Rory Cain
03-14-2015, 03:32 AM
Yes, that is correct. No grouping, just misc.

Not quite correct. Your group is "U10 Miscellaneous". The "U" means that the members of this group have not discovered their sub-clade of DF21. That may because they are singletons who don't match anyone else. Also because they may not yet have discovered that they can test SNP markers through FTDNA's Advanced Orders menu. People regularly depart the U10 Misc sub-group either by taking a SNP test for one of the "sons" of DF21, or by recruiting their close matches into the R-Df21 Project so that we create a new sub-group for them. In the latter case, their new sub-group's namt will still have a "U" in front of the name, unless one of the new members you recruit has a downstream SNP result. As admins, we can only use the info you supply us, and our is a SNP-based project. The moment you produce a positive result for a downstream SNP we will have you up and out of U10 Misc.

03-14-2015, 02:59 PM
What do you think about this guy from the French project?
f128405 Gaspard Bonifas, 1700, Luxembourg

He has some similar STRs as this DF5 guy.
f75621 Harriss DF5+ 21-246-255-H

If we could get Bonifas to 111 markers that would be nice.

Hello Mike:
I have some lower level matches with Bonifas surname. For what its' worth, being a member of the Harris Surname Project I do know many Harris descendants claim descent from Norman and French lines. There are 664 YDNA members in the Project. Some Harris families appear to descend from Ansgot, also known as Crespin de Bec, the forefather of the Crispin family. The lordship of Bec in the Pays de Caux was held by Gilbert Crispin I whose family's nickname was Herissee. Others claim they are named for locations in the regions of Avranches, Pays de Caux and St. Pol in Normandy. Locations of interest include the fief of Herissiere near Avranches and locations named Hericourt in northern France. Early family name variations appear to include de Harcourt, de Hericourt, de Heriz and de Heris, among other variations.. Some claim Heris and Harris derive from Har/Her-hris, a composite of two Old Norse words which seems somewhat at odds with Harry being "Son of Home Ruler" or "Son of Harry" or "Son of Henry" being used by others in the Isles. Some claim a tie to Calvert Family Surname. Name variations in the Project include: Ayres, AAris, Arras, Haris, Harries, Harris, Harriss, Harry, Harrys, Heriz, Herrice, Herries, Herry, Harrison, etc.

Rory Cain
03-16-2015, 11:40 AM
Mr Harriss left the R-DF21 Project some years ago after attacking everyone else involved with that project including it's affable admin David Reynolds. His sub-clade was DF21 > Z246 > DF25 > DF5 so a different subclade your probable S5488 Subclade. Therefore anyone matching Mr Harriss would more likely be his sub-clade than yours. Sorry to dash any hopes. I hope your pending S5488 result proves helpful.

03-16-2015, 11:50 AM
You may be reading into my post.... I have no hopes or bias whatsoever about those lines. Most claiming Norman ancestry are I M253 with a Stag on Coat of Arms. Whereas the M269 and L21 Harris have a Falcon and Herries (Hedgehogs) on their Arms.

Rory Cain
03-18-2015, 02:19 AM
You may be reading into my post.... I have no hopes or bias whatsoever about those lines. Most claiming Norman ancestry are I M253 with a Stag on Coat of Arms. Whereas the M269 and L21 Harris have a Falcon and Herries (Hedgehogs) on their Arms.

Bill, my mistake. Yes the way I misread it, it looked like you were thinking your DF21 > possible S5488 kit might have a connection with Mr Harriss' DF21 > FGC3903 etc kit. That would be a distant connection indeed, and I might have known that you would be fully aware of that already. I hope we can add something after DF21 to your ancestral SNP line. Your sub-group are the biggest not to have yet found which "son" of DF21 they were fathered by. So again, I wish you luck with that S5488 test that is still pending.

03-18-2015, 09:42 AM
No worries .... Yes since they took so long on my 111 results I coached them into giving me an SNP test ... I picked S5488.

Rory Cain
03-19-2015, 02:21 AM
No worries .... Yes since they took so long on my 111 results I coached them into giving me an SNP test ... I picked S5488.

I'm impressed. You did well. I'm most interested to see how it goes.

Rory Cain
03-21-2015, 02:41 AM
Maybe I should have said grouped with Misc people that are df21

Another guy just departed that group after a close match joined, to turn Moody from a singleton into a sub-group. Still untested for SNPs, but appear closest to DF25.

oneillabu
03-24-2015, 11:55 PM
DF21 Continental over here. Northern Germany to be exact. Not really close to any others from what I have been told, though I know history well, I am still new at genetics. How can someone tell how old their mutation is? Someone once said that I branched off quite early from the rest of DF21, could this be the remainder of DF21s who did not go to the Isles?

Here is a strange one, a new DF21+ result in my BIGY matches is Gustav Lager b. 1793 who is also Y783.2+ while I am showing as Y783.2 negative however there are a number of people who are DF21 negative showing up as Y783.2+ and they are also CTS9686+ which is a subclade of Z251. This could mean that DF21 is downstream of Y783.2 and split into two differant branches however this would also mean that Z251 people should be DF21+ also because this is the only way that they could be Y783.2+, any ideas anyone?

oneillabu
03-25-2015, 12:03 AM
This is what I meant to say in the above post. This could mean that Y783.2 is downstream of DF21 and split into two differant branches however this would also mean that Z251 people should be DF21+ also because this is the only way that they could be Y783.2+, any ideas anyone?

Huntergatherer1066
03-25-2015, 12:46 AM
This is what I meant to say in the above post. This could mean that Y783.2 is downstream of DF21 and split into two differant branches however this would also mean that Z251 people should be DF21+ also because this is the only way that they could be Y783.2+, any ideas anyone?

It looks like Y783 is a recurrent SNP, Ybrowse also has it in Q, so that is potentially at least three different occurrences. Looking at its chromosomal position it is right in between two dinucleotide STRs (an AT repeat and an AG repeat). Since it is a T>G mutation that seems like a likely explanation for its frequent recurrence.

MJost
03-25-2015, 02:50 AM
My BAM file shows a 't' at 19048392 with 22 reads out of 24. The surrounding area looks clean using BLAT. Someone should check a few BAM files in each subclade and if it does indeed show 'g' then I sure would see if a primer can be developed and then tested.

MJost

oneillabu
03-25-2015, 09:57 PM
Thanks for that, Lager is given as a Dutch surname, can't find any close matches as of yet but he is GD of 15 at 67 markers from the DF5 modal

Rory Cain
04-01-2015, 02:37 AM
No worries .... Yes since they took so long on my 111 results I coached them into giving me an SNP test ... I picked S5488.

Bill, you chose well. Your S5488 test result came back positive. Oneillabu predicted that you would be S5488 and also likely Z16294. Your Brythonic Celtic group as you call it are now out of the "U" (for "DF21 subclade unknown") category and now DF21 > S5488+ (likely Z16294+).

04-01-2015, 05:49 PM
Rory ... Results are in I'm S5488+.

Bill, you chose well.
Your S5488 test result came back positive. Oneillabu predicted that you would be S5488 and also likely Z16294. Your Brythonic Celtic group as you call it are now out of the "U" (for "DF21 subclade unknown") category and now DF21 > S5488+ (likely Z16294+).

Rory Cain
04-03-2015, 11:27 PM
Rory ... Results are in I'm S5488+.

Now if another member of your group was to match your effort by going for Z16294....

oneillabu
04-04-2015, 08:42 PM
I have found the following people with this signature

Ramsey (12th Century Midlothian Scottish clan)
Wilson (15th Century Scottish Ayrshire name)
Taylor (Anglo Saxon or 13th century Scottish Clan Cameron sept)
Long (Various origins)
Pierce (Anglo Norman name)
Harris (Scottish, Irish or English surname)

Plus James, Maddox, Watkins, Williams, Evans, all Welsh

The average GD to Ramsey from all of the above is under 5 at 67 markers indicating a common ancestor for this cluster around 500 years ago. The cluster shares the DYS492 value of 11 with the Ely Carroll cluster which may indicate an ancient connection.

Rory Cain
04-04-2015, 10:56 PM
I have found the following people with this signature

Ramsey (12th Century Midlothian Scottish clan)
Wilson (15th Century Scottish Ayrshire name)
Taylor (Anglo Saxon or 13th century Scottish Clan Cameron sept)
Long (Various origins)
Pierce (Anglo Norman name)
Harris (Scottish, Irish or English surname)

Plus James, Maddox, Watkins, Williams, Evans, all Welsh

The average GD to Ramsey from all of the above is under 5 at 67 markers indicating a common ancestor for this cluster around 500 years ago. The cluster shares the DYS492 value of 11 with the Ely Carroll cluster which may indicate an ancient connection.

That potentially makes Bill Harris' Brythonic Celtic group much larger than what we presently see in the R-DF21 Project. I guess many of these folks simply do not know that they are, or might be, DF21+. Combined with the various other U-series sub-groups in the R-DF21 Project who have yet to test for any SNPs downstream of DF21, but who appear to be S5488+, it could make S5488 quite old. DF5 is estimated by Yfull at 3,600 ybp. S5488 looks old too. It has strong representation in a band south of the Highland Line through Scotland, as well as Ely O'Carroll and Ikerrin in North Munster/ west Leinster. The Welsh S5488 group needs more work, but Welsh DF25+ & DF5 seems to be Llyn Peninsula and North Wales.

Rory Cain
04-18-2015, 09:08 PM
The cluster shares the DYS492 value of 11 with the Ely Carroll cluster which may indicate an ancient connection.

You were right, about Bill Harris' Brythonic group, and probably right about several other DF21 and S5488 groups that exhibit DYS492=11. I have recruited a few more testers to confirm this, although several groups have not responded - or worse, have wasted time and money doing tests based on FTDNA's obsolete Ytree.

Rory Cain
09-17-2015, 11:13 PM
I extract just two sections from
htttp://cruwys.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-look-at-genetic-homeland-case-reports.html


"2) The Origenes' method takes no account of the biased nature of the Family Tree DNA database. Around 70% of FTDNA customers are thought to reside in the United States, and matches with other surnames may often reflect non-paternity events in the US rather than the origin of a surname in the British Isles. This point is nicely demonstrated in Howard Mathieson's critique of the Irish Origenes' case study of the Kiely surname. Furthermore, the FTDNA database has inevitable gaps, and many British and Irish surnames, particularly lower frequency surnames, are not yet represented.

"3) The Origenes' reports do not appear to make any attempt to verify the SNP status of the people in the match lists whose surnames are used to pinpoint the "genetic homeland". SNP testing is important when investigating matches with other surnames in order to ensure that the matches are not false positives. Two men can have matching Y-STR results, but if they do not share the same SNPs they will belong on different branches of the Y-DNA tree and will not share a common ancestor within the last few thousand years. This problem occurs as a result of convergence. Although 37-marker results are most commonly affected the problem can still occur with more distant matches at 67 markers. Convergence is a particular problem in haplogroup R1b, the most common haplogroup in the British Isles which is found at a frequency of about 70% in England and over 80% in Ireland."

I am thinking that much of this criticism would also apply to those who have observed singletons within L21 sub-clades claiming Contnental origins and have swallowed those claims at face value. I remain open to the possibility that we may yet discover a genuine and unambiguous Continental DF21+. Most of those claims appear to come from out of the United States of America, though, rather than from the Continent itself. Supporting evidence is often in short supply. Surname matches are often with Isles surnames. Often little attempt has been made to verify the SNP status. Some may yet prove to be genuine, if the work is put into verifying the claim. Thus far, DF21 appears to remain Isles.