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David Mc
01-25-2014, 07:05 AM
I thought I might open up a thread on K1a4 and her deeper subclades. I am particularly interested in K1a4a1, so some of my questions will doubtlessly zero in on this smaller cluster. Donít let that dissuade you from coming at it from other angles, though.

My first question has to do with K1a4ís origins and entry into Europe. Maciamo, from Eupedia, has argued that there is a clear correlation between K and R1bís expansion into Europe (see here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29155-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-K)). While not limiting his discussion to K1a4, he places a great deal of focus on this subclade, which is rather helpful for our purposes here.

He writes:


Neolithic lineages would probably have a greater diversity (more subclades) because they expanded earlier. However the trimming of the Neolithic/Chalcolithic population would have slowed down their diversification from the Bronze Age. In contrast, Indo-European lineages would have thrived from the Bronze Age onwards, resulting in a sudden expansion of deep subclades. This is exactly what we observe with K1a4. The subclades that remained behind in Anatolia and the Caucasus have become K1a4f. In Ukraine, the Balkans and Germany we see the appearance of K1a4a. K1a4a1 seems to have developed in Germany, probably around the same time as the branching of R1b-L11 into P312 and U106.

What do you think? Is this a solid working model for K1a4ís entry into European. Did it arrive with Indo-European speaking R1b men?

David Mc
01-25-2014, 07:14 AM
Another question, this time focusing in on subclade K1a4a1.

Speaking of K1a4a1, the Genographic Project tells us that, “Today, this line is most common in Luxembourg (9 percent), Croatia (4 percent), Denmark (3 percent), Spain (2 to 3 percent), Sweden (2 percent), and the British Isles (2 percent).”

So what's going on with Luxembourg? Why do we have such a high percentage of K1a4a1 in this tiny piece of land? It seems to me that this could reflect a South German origin for the subclade along the lines of Maciamo's model above, but I don't honestly know. I'd love to hear some thoughts.

Rathna
01-25-2014, 08:10 AM
From these samples of the Ian Logan site we can see that K1a4 is completely European:
K1a4 11485
1. AY495261(European) Coble K1a4 07-JAN-2008
A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
2. AY495263(European) Coble K1a4 07-JAN-2008
A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
4. EU130551(Italy) FTDNA K1a4 12-SEP-2007
A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 524.1C 524.2A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G A12358G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G A16051G T16224C T16311C T16519C
5. EU564851 FTDNA K1a4 25-MAR-2008
A73G G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T 524.1C 524.2A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G G3010A A3480G C4137T A4769G G5237A C7028T A8531G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G G15930A T16224C T16311C T16519C
6. FJ348212 Irene K1a429-NOV-2008
A73G T152C A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G T4313C A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A G9064A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
So are completely European all the subclades, with only K1a4b1, K1a4c with presence out of Europe We don't understand why K1a4f
K1a4f A7118G T16093C
59. GU722601 FTDNA K1a4f 22-FEB-2010
A73G A263G T279C 315.1C C411A C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A7118G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C T16311C T16519C
should demonstrate that the origin was in Middle East and above all demonstrate the link with Y haplogroup R1b.
I spoke in this section of mtDNA K1a17 and the pretension of Eupedia it is of Middle Eastern origin. From K1a there are many subclades, from 1 to 27 so far, and they are overwhelmingly European.
I think that Maciamo has no credibility by a scientific point of view in all what he says.

Rathna
01-25-2014, 10:36 AM
mtDNA hg. K1a4 is important also to deepen a discourse I have elsewhere hinted: the use of Behar2012b of the FTDNA clones. If we look at the 13 samples given for the K1a4 haplogroup, we can see that the FTDNA samples, once used, should have been deleted, so it would have appeared that those clones were sequenced again in Israel's labs. But not always it has happened:
1) MC947/JQ702505 is the same of the MC16484/FTDNA/EU139551
2) MC1353/JQ702911 is the same of the MC16851/FTDNA/EU564851
3) MC4098/JQ705656 is (probably) the same of the MC16527/FTDNA/EU219921, because they differ in the mutations:
C150T C264T C6518TT C10961T A13681G A15613G T16093C with "topologically missing" A11914G the second

C264T C6518TT C10961T A13681G A15613G T16093C C16189Y with "topologically missing" A11914G and C16189T the first.
Was this clone actually sequenced again or has been done a great confusion in reporting the results?


Haplogroup K1a4 has 13 samples
Sample Id: MC947 NCBI Id: JQ702505 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] A12358G; A16051G;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Italy Geography: Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
Sample Id: MC1072 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C T372C 522.1A 522.2C 522.3A 522.4C G10586A T12957C T16093Y
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C152T
Country: United States Geography: PA Ancestry: Reference: Contact:
Sample Id: MC1353 NCBI Id: JQ702911 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] G207A; G3010A; C4137T; G5237A; A8531G; G15930A;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
Sample Id: MC1738 NCBI Id: JQ703296 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] T3290C; A6437G;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.]Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
Sample Id: MC1803 NCBI Id: JQ703361 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] G5237A; A8531G; A8642G; A11167G; G15497A;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
Sample Id: MC3604 NCBI Id: JQ705162 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] A7358G; A8350c; A11566G; T16093Y;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
Sample Id: MC4098 NCBI Id: JQ705656 Unresolved Options: K1a4; Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C264T; C6518T; C10961T; A13681G; A15613G; T16093C; C16189Y;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] A11914G(L1'2'3'4'5'6); C16189T(L2'3'4'6);
Country: Switzerland Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
Sample Id: MC14636 NCBI Id: AY495261 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.]
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Coble 2004 Contact:
Sample Id: MC14638 NCBI Id: AY495263 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.]
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography Ancestry: Reference: Coble 2004 Contact:
Sample Id: MC16484 NCBI Id: EU130551 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] A12358G; A16051G;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: FamilyTreeDNA Contact:
Sample Id: MC16527 NCBI Id: EU219921 Unresolved Options: K1a4; Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C150T; C264T; C6518T; C10961T; A13681G; A15613G; T16093C;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] A11914G(L1'2'3'4'5'6);
Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: FamilyTreeDNA Contact:
Sample Id: MC16851 NCBI Id: EU564851 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] G207A; G3010A; C4137T; G5237A; A8531G; G15930A;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: FamilyTreeDNA Contact:
Sample Id: MC17438 NCBI Id: FJ348212 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] T4313C; G9064A;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C152T(L2'3'4'5'6);
Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Pichler 2008 Contact:

David Mc
01-25-2014, 09:31 PM
Hi Rathna,

Thanks for your reply. After reading it, I combed through Jean Manco's Ancient DNA database, isolating Haplotype K and its subclades to get a better picture of where K is found down though the millennia. I've created a new thread to show what we have so far: K in Ancient DNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1951-K-in-Ancient-DNA&p=28580#post28580). Hopefully this will help fill in some of the blank spaces.

While it takes us beyond K1a4, I think it does suggest that you are right in placing it in Europe earlier than Maciamo does. K1a, at least, seems to appear in both northern Germany and Spain sometime around 5000 BC with the LBK and Epicardial cultures, respectively. I'm not sure I'm much clearer yet, as to how it got to these locations, but it's something to work from.

David Mc
01-25-2014, 10:04 PM
I've asked Maciamo to respond to the question posed immediately above. I look forward to hearing his thoughts on the matter...

Rathna
01-25-2014, 10:33 PM
Hi David, I think we all are sincerely searching for the truth. Behar 2012b gives to K1a an age of 18433.3 +/- 1732.8 years, i.e. to say that a sample of K1a has been found 5000 years BC has no meaning. And where has it been before?
My K1a1b1e is more recent and I think having demonstrated that it probably was born in Italy: I have found 1 sample also amongst the 105 Tuscans of the 1KGP. A percentage of about 1% is unthinkable for a so rare haplotype. British K1a1b1e certainly derives from the Italian one, having the mutation 477C I haven't. A few days ago a sample at a GD of 1 from mine (i.e. probably without my mutation in T11204C) has appeared on FTDNA. I wrote to the owner, who has a Spanish surname. The origin of her maternal line could shed an important light on the origin of this halogroup. Unfortunately she didn't reply and probably won't do it in the future.

David Mc
01-25-2014, 10:47 PM
to say that a sample of K1a has been found 5000 years BC has no meaning. And where has it been before?

I agree that if it was presented as a bare fact the 5000 BC sample date would have no meaning. When it is presented within the context of no positives in Europe from either the mesolithic (probably) or the paleolithic, however, it does indeed lead to the question, "Where has it been before?" As the earliest concrete dates for K appear in Syria (6800-6000 BC), it looks like it was in the Levant before it was in Europe. Of course new discoveries in ancient DNA may reveal a completely different picture; the may show that you are right. Until then, though, it looks to me like it came into Europe from the Near East sometime in the neolithic.

Please don't take this as an outright rejection of your model. I don't have any personal bias here, and I'm not invested in any particular model. I look forward to seeing where the evidence leads us, though.

Rathna
01-25-2014, 11:13 PM
Yes, this is what pretty all think. What disturbed me is the link of K1a4 with Middle East and the hg. R1b that Maciamo did, and I think having demonstrated wrong. About the origin of K it is important also the origin of U, and above all U8b'K from which K was born, and its presence in Italy is huge, also on 23andMe and some samples I had from the owners.
Another method for demonstrating something is to see where the subclades are, and, as I have said above, overwhelmingly they are in Europe. This has been demonstrated also from the recent paper of Costa et alii about the Ashkenazi K. Personally I leave a possibility only to the Caucasus, where probably was born K3.
About Y R1b I have written a lot: you can see not only "Rathna's reassessment of genetic materials", not created by me but by the administrators, but the more recent "R1b phylogeny", where we are collecting data about the last tests, many in progress.

David Mc
01-29-2014, 03:46 AM
Maciamo has amended his article to place the European expansion of K/Ka1 etc. in the neolithic. He still argues that there is an important correlation between the frequencies of R1b and K, but he links this with R1b's replacement of most neolithic male lines and the possible addition of other K mitochondrial lines coming in with R1b. Either way, it's nice to see more information coming in about this particular haplogroup.

I would still love to know what's going on with Luxembourg, though...

vettor
04-08-2014, 06:43 AM
My wife just got her Ftdna results which says K1a4
her extra mutations are - 315.1C
522.1A
522.2C
522.3A
522.4C
C3970T
A12273G
T16304C

and she matches nothing in the new project#16 apart from just K1a4

her matches so far are

3 from Finland
2 from Austria
2 from Switzerland
1 from Friuli north Italy
1 from Israel


Fasta is not working at the moment so I cannot use J.Lick site

Rathna
04-08-2014, 09:20 AM
My wife just got her Ftdna results which says K1a4
her extra mutations are - 315.1C
522.1A
522.2C
522.3A
522.4C
C3970T
A12273G
T16304C

and she matches nothing in the new project#16 apart from just K1a4

her matches so far are

3 from Finland
2 from Austria
2 from Switzerland
1 from Friuli north Italy
1 from Israel


Fasta is not working at the moment so I cannot use J.Lick site

Why do you need the Lick calculator? If you have the coding region mutations, you have had an FMS, which is the complete and definitive test of the mt. Your wife's results should be these:
A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G C3970T A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12273G A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16304C T16224C T16311C T16519C

And where do your wife come from? From the Alpine Region like You? In this case we could discuss again what Costa et al. 2013 say:

"Haplogroup K is rarer in the North Caucasus than in Europe or the Near East (<4% (ref. 23)) and the three Ashkenazi founder clades have not been found there (Supplementary Note 2). We tested all eight K lineages out of 208 samples from the North Caucasus, and all belonged to the Near Eastern subclades K1a3, K1a4 and K1a12. Haplogroup K is more common in Chuvashia, but those sampled belong to K1a4, K1a5 and pre-K2a8".


P.S. Your wife's haplotype matches at least 8 people on SMGF from the Alpine Region to the Isles and Finland, seeming just an expansion from what I call the "Italian Refugium" and you perhaps the "Alpine" one.
Of course all these people come from one or two ancestresses and the origin may be from everywhere, but your wife may contribute to this research.

vettor
04-08-2014, 10:17 AM
Why do you need the Lick calculator? If you have the coding region mutations, you have had an FMS, which is the complete and definitive test of the mt. Your wife's results should be these:
A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G C3970T A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12273G A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16304C T16224C T16311C T16519C

Because ftdna does not use #16 and JLick does.
Her CR is

A769G A825t A1018G T1189C A1811G A2758G C2885T A3480G T3594C C3970T G4104A
T4312C G7146A T7256C A7521G T8468C T8655C G8701A G9055A C9540T T9698C A10550G
T10664C A10688G C10810T C10873T C10915T T11299C A11467G T11485C A11914G A12273G
A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T13506C T13650C C14167T T14798C
...................................

A16129G T16187C C16189T T16223C T16224C G16230A T16278C T16304C



And where do your wife come from? From the Alpine Region like You? In this case we could discuss again what Costa et al. 2013 say:

"Haplogroup K is rarer in the North Caucasus than in Europe or the Near East (<4% (ref. 23)) and the three Ashkenazi founder clades have not been found there (Supplementary Note 2). We tested all eight K lineages out of 208 samples from the North Caucasus, and all belonged to the Near Eastern subclades K1a3, K1a4 and K1a12. Haplogroup K is more common in Chuvashia, but those sampled belong to K1a4, K1a5 and pre-K2a8".


Her family , both lines comes from the zone between Conegliano to Motta di Livenza ( Veneto) at least to 1757


P.S. Your wife's haplotype matches at least 8 people on SMGF from the Alpine Region to the Isles and Finland, seeming just an expansion from what I call the "Italian Refugium" and you perhaps the "Alpine" one.
Of course all these people come from one or two ancestresses and the origin may be from everywhere, but your wife may contribute to this research.

thanks
regards

Rathna
04-08-2014, 11:29 AM
A769G A825t A1018G T1189C A1811G A2758G C2885T A3480G T3594C C3970T G4104A
T4312C G7146A T7256C A7521G T8468C T8655C G8701A G9055A C9540T T9698C A10550G
T10664C A10688G C10810T C10873T C10915T T11299C A11467G T11485C A11914G A12273G
A12308G G12372A T12705C G13105A G13276A T13506C T13650C C14167T T14798C
...................................

A16129G T16187C C16189T T16223C T16224C G16230A T16278C T16304C


These are the RSRS values. Click rCRS and see if your wife's values coincide with mine.

P.S. Anyway your wife is from Veneto. Good news for me and for my theories.

vettor
04-08-2014, 11:55 AM
These are the RSRS values. Click rCRS and see if your wife's values coincide with mine.

P.S. Anyway your wife is from Veneto. Good news for me and for my theories.

ok, here you go


16224C
16304C
16311C
16519C


73G
263G
315.1C
497T
523.1C
523.2A


750G
1189C
1438G
1811G
2706G
3480G
3970T
4769G
7028T
8860G
9055A
9698C
10398G
10550G
11299C
11467G
11485C
11719A
12273G
12308G
12372A
14167T
14766T
14798C
15326G

Enjoy

You know what the ancient Greeks said when they named Italy....translated, they said.......from the Toe to the Po are Italians , the rest are barbarians

vettor
04-11-2014, 07:35 AM
ran my wife's data via JLick and as I suspected , K1a4 and K1a are the only matches

1) K1a4

Defining Markers for haplogroup K1a4:
HVR2: 73G 263G 497T
CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G
HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1a4 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨ U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨ 1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 497T (16093C) ⇨ K1a ⇨ 11485C ⇨ K1a4 ⇨ (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)

Good Match! Your results also had extra markers for this haplogroup:
Matches(28): 73G 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G 16224C 16311C
Mismatches(0): (16093T)
Extras(5): (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)

Rathna
04-11-2014, 08:25 AM
Extras(5): (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)

315.1C and 16519C shouldn't be considered extra mutations, because they are very stable in hg. K. This is said on the wrong assumption that K1a4 is of Middle Eastern and not European origin (position assumed also from Costa et al. 2013: "We tested all eight K lineages out of 208 samples from the North Caucasus, and all belonged to the Near Eastern subclades K1a3, K1a4 and K1a12").
As I said above, when someone gets an FMS, he has no need of the JLick calculator (which could be useful for partial tests like that of 23andMe), because he may understand his haplogroup through Phylotree.

vettor
04-11-2014, 09:19 AM
315.1C and 16519C shouldn't be considered extra mutations, because they are very stable in hg. K. This is said on the wrong assumption that K1a4 is of Middle Eastern and not European origin (position assumed also from Costa et al. 21013: "We tested all eight K lineages out of 208 samples from the North Caucasus, and all belonged to the Near Eastern subclades K1a3, K1a4 and K1a12").
As I said above, when someone gets an FMS, he has no need of the JLick calculator (which could be useful for partial tests like that of 23andMe), because he may understand his haplogroup through Phylotree.

Thanks

But I have to satisfy my wife with something she can see .............I did not doubt you.

Also, others might be interested.

vettor
05-31-2014, 07:06 PM
These are the RSRS values. Click rCRS and see if your wife's values coincide with mine.

P.S. Anyway your wife is from Veneto. Good news for me and for my theories.

My wife got her MyOrigins done, they are ............99% European and 1% Anatolian ( 81% north Med Basin, 8% trans-ural, 6% north circumpolar, 4% european northlands)

Surname matches from Veneto and Friuli: ( none is hers, but 2 match her line in the last 2 hundred years )
Zorzenoni
Stolfo
Lovo
Freddi
Salvadego

from Modena
Canoto

biggest Cm shared is 31.5 with a person with surname Ott from Black forest Germany and
and 41.5 with person from Carnia ( friuli ) and or Venetian Coast from towns between JESOLO and CAORLE


I would like to know your theories on this area

Rathna
06-01-2014, 11:29 AM
I would like to know your theories on this area

vettor, who knows me knows that I use above all the mt and the Y for my researches. I use the autosome only for a close relatedness: by it I contributed to find the father of an adopted American and some interesting input I had also for my ancestry, but I have used above all 23andMe, I know a little Family Finder, thus MyOrigins. Anyway the autosome cannot say anything about the mt or the Y, which are too far for having lost some trace. It seems to me that, also by MyOrigins criteria, your wife is overwhelmingly Italian, and above all from old Italian origin (81% North Mediterranean Basin).
To investigate the 31,5 Cm with a person from the Schwarzwalden Forest: it is likely that he/she has some Italian recent input. But this is only my hypothesis.

vettor
06-02-2014, 09:10 PM
vettor, who knows me knows that I use above all the mt and the Y for my researches. I use the autosome only for a close relatedness: by it I contributed to find the father of an adopted American and some interesting input I had also for my ancestry, but I have used above all 23andMe, I know a little Family Finder, thus MyOrigins. Anyway the autosome cannot say anything about the mt or the Y, which are too far for having lost some trace. It seems to me that, also by MyOrigins criteria, your wife is overwhelmingly Italian, and above all from old Italian origin (81% North Mediterranean Basin).
To investigate the 31,5 Cm with a person from the Schwarzwalden Forest: it is likely that he/she has some Italian recent input. But this is only my hypothesis.

thanks

maybe we need to investigate the adriatic-refugium ..........something I have been reading since the 2012 conference

http://bonesandskulls.co.uk/2012/12/29/adriatic-refugium/

http://grottadifumane.eu/publication/a-new-cultural-frontier-for-the-last-neanderthals-the-uluzzian-in-northern-italy/wppa_open/

GailT
06-06-2014, 04:18 AM
FernŠndez et al. found K among early farmers in Syria (link (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/06/ancient-mtdna-from-pre-pottery.html)).

It appears FernŠndez did not atttempt a full sequence so we might not be able to determine the specific K subclades. But this finding is consistent with the possibility that K arrived in Europe with neolithic farmers from the Near East. And this further undercuts the conclusion of Costa et al. which I've found to be highly speculative and improbable.

vettor
06-06-2014, 07:47 PM
FernŠndez et al. found K among early farmers in Syria (link (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/06/ancient-mtdna-from-pre-pottery.html)).

It appears FernŠndez did not atttempt a full sequence so we might not be able to determine the specific K subclades. But this finding is consistent with the possibility that K arrived in Europe with neolithic farmers from the Near East. And this further undercuts the conclusion of Costa et al. which I've found to be highly speculative and improbable.

The K info relates to other K lines, not K1a4
Only other K I know about in Syria/levant is K1b group

vettor
08-08-2014, 10:54 PM
How to proceed ...............most of you people here are far more clever than me , so I would like your opinion on the following.

My wife is K1a4

On ftdna, she has 4 people who match here on Chr#12 in exactly the same spot . ( so all 5 are together)
All are from different countries...Austria, Germany, Italy and England. ( not including my wife)
3 of the 4 have big ancestry trees. ( the Austrian is missing )
3 of the 4 match each other on the ftdna matrix. ( the German is not part of this )
All 4 are K mtdna ...although some are different to K1a4


Edit.....another arrived

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/k1a4no12_zps80ca28bc.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/k1a4no12_zps80ca28bc.jpg.html)



my question.......how do I proceed?..............sort via names in the trees ( seems like over a hundred to 2 hundred combined)

dp
08-09-2014, 02:25 PM
All not being in mtDNA haplogroup K1a4 only means that they are not all related to the same maternal ancestor. Specifically, I mean the one depicted on the rightmost side of their respective family trees. They have a common (autosomal) ancestor that could be anywhere else in their family trees. I don't see how searching by surname would necessarily help. If your wife has a parent that could take an aDNA test, have him or her tested. That would allow you to isolate which side of your wife's tree the ancestor is on, and narrow down the genealogy. Of course if you could convince your wife's matches to do the same, the genealogy would become much simplier.
dp :-)

vettor
01-31-2015, 06:24 AM
I thought I would try jameslick program ( as I have not used it in 2014 with the new mtdna tree included)

for me and my mtdna it is correct

for my wife designated K1a4 it is correct ( ftdna was also correct )

my son, who is K1a ( in 23andme - v4) is tested as
k1a29

with 16304G as extra and 16093T as different from k1a4 ................can this be correct , can he be different from his mother?
note, in getmatch he and mother are an exact copy


I did find some info on K1a4 here
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDEQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmai68.org%2Fspip%2FIMG%2Fpdf%2Fnc omms3543-s1.pdf&ei=y3XMVOyXNqqIsQTpsYDoCQ&usg=AFQjCNFt0w9bRiIehCmCk_HQ9eoQa-yqeQ&bvm=bv.85076809,d.cWc&cad=rja

dp
01-31-2015, 04:41 PM
I may be not be correct for this instance, but 16093 is notorious for being hard to read. I have seen many Y's in Fasta's there, so it's either a C or a T for the derived allele but they didn't know which. See if that may be the case.
As far a K1a29, I'm not up with the newer haplogroup designations. When I ran K's from GEDBANK in 2012-2013 the highest I found were K1a27s, viz.:
K1a27 JN415475 France ?Lebanese Achilli (2012)
K1a27 JQ705460 Behar (2012).

I checked at Phylotree. You need to check for a C at 11485, a C at 8167, for both of them.
Have both had full mtGenome scans?
Partial ones, like 23andme does can have errors due to lack of testing in defining positions.
I assume your wife was tested at 11485 for a C which got her into K1a4.
Only if your son was tested at both positions and came 11485T then they could use 8167C to place him in K1a29. If this is the case then you need to make sure your wife was tested at both.
Hope this helps,
dp :-)

vettor
01-31-2015, 06:37 PM
I may be not be correct for this instance, but 16093 is notorious for being hard to read. I have seen many Y's in Fasta's there, so it's either a C or a T for the derived allele but they didn't know which. See if that may be the case.
As far a K1a29, I'm not up with the newer haplogroup designations. When I ran K's from GEDBANK in 2012-2013 the highest I found were K1a27s, viz.:
K1a27 JN415475 France ?Lebanese Achilli (2012)
K1a27 JQ705460 Behar (2012).

I checked at Phylotree. You need to check for a C at 11485, a C at 8167, for both of them.
Have both had full mtGenome scans?
Partial ones, like 23andme does can have errors due to lack of testing in defining positions.
I assume your wife was tested at 11485 for a C which got her into K1a4.
Only if your son was tested at both positions and came 11485T then they could use 8167C to place him in K1a29. If this is the case then you need to make sure your wife was tested at both.
Hope this helps,
dp :-)

Thanks ...wife is same from ftdna and Jlick program
My wife did the FULL mtdna tests via ftdna

1) K1a4

Defining Markers for haplogroup K1a4:
HVR2: 73G 263G 497T
CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G
HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1a4 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨ U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨ 1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 497T (16093C) ⇨ K1a ⇨ 11485C ⇨ K1a4 ⇨ (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)

Good Match! Your results also had extra markers for this haplogroup:
Matches(28): 73G 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G 16224C 16311C
Mismatches(0): (16093T)
Extras(5): (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)


my son did the [email protected] V4 test

1) K1a29

Defining Markers for haplogroup K1a29:
HVR2: 73G 263G 497T
CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8167C 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G
HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1a29 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨ U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨ 1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 497T (16093C) ⇨ K1a ⇨ 8167C ⇨ K1a29 ⇨ 16304G (16519C)

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(26): 73G 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 16224C 16311C
Mismatches(0): (16093T)
Extras(1): 16304G (16519C)
Untested(2): 8167 15326

Maybe the V4 from [email protected] is the issue as my batches for myself for [email protected] v3 and ftdna both work perfectly..................then again my sample from genbank is used to define the marker on the new tree

dp
01-31-2015, 06:54 PM
Thanks ...wife is same from ftdna and Jlick program
My wife did the FULL mtdna tests via ftdna

1) K1a4

Defining Markers for haplogroup K1a4:
HVR2: 73G 263G 497T
CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G
HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1a4 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨ U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨ 1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 497T (16093C) ⇨ K1a ⇨ 11485C ⇨ K1a4 ⇨ (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)

Good Match! Your results also had extra markers for this haplogroup:
Matches(28): 73G 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G 16224C 16311C
Mismatches(0): (16093T)
Extras(5): (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)


my son did the [email protected] V4 test

1) K1a29

Defining Markers for haplogroup K1a29:
HVR2: 73G 263G 497T
CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8167C 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G
HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1a29 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨ U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨ 1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 497T (16093C) ⇨ K1a ⇨ 8167C ⇨ K1a29 ⇨ 16304G (16519C)

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(26): 73G 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 16224C 16311C
Mismatches(0): (16093T)
Extras(1): 16304G (16519C)
Untested(2): 8167 15326

Maybe the V4 from [email protected] is the issue as my batches for myself for [email protected] v3 and ftdna both work perfectly..................then again my sample from genbank is used to define the marker on the new tree

They assigned him to something they didn't test for. I think they saw the hypervariable 16304G and jumped the gun on his assignment. Look at the raw data to make sure they tested T11485C.
Have a good weekend.
dp :-)

wombatofthenorth
03-29-2015, 11:39 PM
I thought I might open up a thread on K1a4 and her deeper subclades. I am particularly interested in K1a4a1, so some of my questions will doubtlessly zero in on this smaller cluster. Don’t let that dissuade you from coming at it from other angles, though.

My first question has to do with K1a4’s origins and entry into Europe. Maciamo, from Eupedia, has argued that there is a clear correlation between K and R1b’s expansion into Europe (see here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29155-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-K)). While not limiting his discussion to K1a4, he places a great deal of focus on this subclade, which is rather helpful for our purposes here.

He writes:



What do you think? Is this a solid working model for K1a4’s entry into European. Did it arrive with Indo-European speaking R1b men?

I see that he suggests k1a4a1 originated in Germany. OTOH, the latest on Geno 2.0 suggests k1a4a1 originated most likely in Southeastern Europe or Anatolia about 9,000 years ago.

David Mc
03-29-2015, 11:55 PM
I haven't found the Genographic Project to be helpful or accurate in their predictions of origins. That isn't to say that they are wrong in this case; I myself have no idea where K1a4a1 originated (frustratingly). I'm only saying their track record isn't great.

Edited to add: If you look at the bottom of the K1a4a1 map you will read, "Note: This branch is not accompanied by a major movement on the map, and research on this branch is continuing."

You will see the same note on all of the branches below K.

Ceri
04-06-2015, 08:17 PM
K1a4a1 matches my mtdna. This is all new to be but happy to share results for research

David Mc
04-06-2015, 09:43 PM
Hi Ceri, and welcome to Anthrogenica. are you able to say anything about your maternal ancestor's earliest known origins?

Ceri
04-10-2015, 11:47 AM
Hi

Apologies this very new and ever so slightly confusing at the moment. My MTDNA is K1a4A1. Happy to join groups etc but wading through numbers at the moment trying to make some sense of it all Regards Ceri

Ceri
04-10-2015, 11:49 AM
Hi

Apologies, I can trace my earliest maternal ancestry only back to about late 1700's and that would be in Gloucestershire. The Chromo 2 results from Wales DNA to match a previous Oxford Ancestors result although there is far more detail on the new results. I doubled up as it didn't cost much more to test my brother for both X & Y tests.

David Mc
04-10-2015, 07:09 PM
Hi Ceri. Thanks for sharing. My own maternal line is K1a4a1 and English, as well (as far back as we can trace, anyway). K1a4a1 seems to have a strong presence in northwest Europe.

dp
04-10-2015, 09:56 PM
Dear Ceri,
I'm another K1a4a1. I'm in branch c. A tiny little subbranch (with about 12 members known) and from control region D-loop tests maybe another dozen possible. It's members are either here in the USA or are in countries that border the North Sea.
Yours,
dp :-)

Ceri
04-11-2015, 12:55 PM
Hi. Will be happy to share results of Chromo 2 test . I am not sure if the Wales DNA tests are suitable for genealogical comparisons from the info I have read so far. Fascinating stuff though. Regards Ceri

Ceri
04-12-2015, 04:41 PM
Hello David

I am not sure which branch I am in. The following appear in my results from Wales DNA: 73G 146C 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 6260A 7028T 9698C 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 11840T 12308G 12372A 13740C 14167T 14798C 16224C 16311C 16519C.
This is all quite new really so very much finding my way around. Earliest maternal ancestry is English Regards Ceri

vettor
04-12-2015, 06:55 PM
Hello David

I am not sure which branch I am in. The following appear in my results from Wales DNA: 73G 146C 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 6260A 7028T 9698C 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 11840T 12308G 12372A 13740C 14167T 14798C 16224C 16311C 16519C.
This is all quite new really so very much finding my way around. Earliest maternal ancestry is English Regards Ceri

the surname Ceri is popular in northern italy , north of Modena and south of Mantua ...dating from 1311 ......from the town called Carpi

Anticamente chiamata de' Ceri, le prime notizie di essa risalgono al 1311. Nel secolo XIV alcuni di detta famiglia figurano tra gli amministratori del comune di Carpi. Degno di speciale menzione ť Masino del fu Manfredino Ceri distinto giurista che, nel 1353,

Masino Ceri from the late Manfred Ceri has stood out

David Mc
04-12-2015, 07:13 PM
the surname Ceri is popular in northern italy , north of Modena and south of Mantua ...dating from 1311 ......from the town called Carpi...

Very interesting. I had assumed Ceri was short for Ceridwen, but I suppose there are other possibilities.

David Mc
04-12-2015, 07:30 PM
Hi again, Ceri.

The best thing for you to do at this point would be to join the K mtDNA Haplogroup Project, which you can find here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K

The administrator's name is William Hurst, and he's truly amazing. He will guide you through your next steps and, hopefully, help you determine which branch you belong to. One of the things he will likely suggest is sending your Chromo2 files to Genbank. I did that myself, and the end result was that I finally found myself placed in the extremely rare K1a4a1i branch. William is definitely your man here. You never know... maybe you'll be joining our very exclusive branch. We're always on the lookout for new members :-)

Ceri
04-19-2015, 08:11 AM
Thank you, will do. Regards Ceri

paulpink
10-07-2015, 02:09 PM
Hi, I'm Paul. I'm new to all of this. I sent a sample to 23andme. My mtDNA haplotype is k1a4a1. My mother's side comes from a small village in central Sicily. We can trace names back into the 1800s, but I suspect that they have been there longer because it is so rural. Interestingly, that town has its own dialect, which has its own fascinating history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily

I'm very interested in learning more about the origins of this haplogroup. If it is helpful to post more information about my family history or more from my 23andme results, please let me know. Are there other free/low-cost resources I should look into? Much thanks!

J1 DYS388=13
10-07-2015, 03:15 PM
I'm afraid it's a widespread European type, https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K/default.aspx?section=mtresults

About 10,000 years old, and "likely of European origin" according to an academic paper (A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages, Marta D. Costa et al.)

It isn't an Ashkenazi type.

Agamemnon
10-07-2015, 03:28 PM
I'm afraid it's a widespread European type, https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K/default.aspx?section=mtresults

About 10,000 years old, and "likely of European origin" according to an academic paper (A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages, Marta D. Costa et al.)

It isn't an Ashkenazi type.

It's a mystery to me why some would still use this paper since it contradicts its own conclusions (read the sup data) and was overturned by Fernandez et al.'s re-analysis of Syrian PPNB remains. I know it was widely publicised by the mainstream media, and I know why the mainstream media was eager to publicise this paper, but really, this paper is only slightly better than Zoossmann-Diskin's on the very same topic.

J1 DYS388=13
10-08-2015, 07:12 AM
So K1a4a1 is not about 10,000 years old? Or is it not likely of European origin?

David Mc
10-08-2015, 07:58 AM
A while ago I would have said K1a4a1 originated in Europe. I'm less inclined to think so now.

The earliest K's so far were found in the Middle East and date from the 7th millennium BC. The earliest remains in Europe that have tested positive for K1a4a1 are from the Cardial Culture which entered into Europe from-- you guessed it-- the Levant. It genuinely looks like it came to Europe with the wave of Near Easter settlers whose advent signaled the beginning of the neolithic.

It's worth mentioning, though, that other K1 variations show up in other parts of Europe at a fairly early date as well (comparable to Cardial, or at least appearing shortly after). It's this that introduces some uncertainty and hinders me from making any absolute statements as to its origins. My money would be firmly on the Cardial culture, though.

One caveat: It's true that K1a4 is primarily European. So it's possible that it was born there, but it would still have been born from the older Near Eastern stock.

As to the age of K1a4a1, 10,000 years seems a bit too old to me... I would have guessed it was 7000-8000 years old.

J1 DYS388=13
10-08-2015, 08:14 AM
What is the best way to estimate the age of a branch?

GailT
10-08-2015, 05:42 PM
What is the best way to estimate the age of a branch?

The supplement of the Behar et al. 2012 paper has age estimates for most subclades, but some have a small sample size and large uncertainty. You can do an updated estimate by looking at the diversity (average number of mutations) for all FMS samples in your subclade and then use the Soares spreadsheet age calculator.

J1 DYS388=13
10-08-2015, 07:02 PM
Can I ask you about that Behar 2012 supplement. Take this line:

Haplogroup Time estimate (years) SD (years)
K1a10a 2693.4 3531.6

I'm no stranger to statistics. But I've never seen a standard deviation which is larger than the mean. And what is that a standard deviation of? A series of estimates or something?

Or are we supposed to read "Time estimate 2693.4 SD 3531.6" as meaning "failed operation for this haplogroup" ?

David Mc
10-11-2015, 01:19 AM
Just noticed that "Supplementary Data Table 1" of the Eight Thousand Years of Natural Selection in Europe paper has two Anatolian Neolithic K1a4 results dated to 6500-6200 BC. Another link in the chain leading back to the Near East.

wombatofthenorth
12-30-2015, 08:02 AM
I'm k1a4a1. I'm mostly Latvian and we've traced a lot of my mom's ancestry to 1700 or 1600s within Latvian, however, her mother's mother's mother was said to have been born in Germany and that branch were said to have come to Riga from Germany maybe around the mid to lateish 1800s and been pretty well off. It's the one line we haven't tracked much at all yet on her side.

FeyliDNAproject
06-03-2016, 03:56 PM
The feyli dna project has found 2 hits of K1a4.

Abd.H
06-09-2016, 06:32 PM
I received my mtDNA results today and my mtDNA haplogroup is K1a .

wombatofthenorth
06-10-2016, 11:24 PM
I'm k1a4a1. I'm mostly Latvian and we've traced a lot of my mom's ancestry to 1700 or 1600s within Latvian, however, her mother's mother's mother was said to have been born in Germany and that branch were said to have come to Riga from Germany maybe around the mid to lateish 1800s and been pretty well off. It's the one line we haven't tracked much at all yet on her side.

It's more uncertain now as to where she was born, maybe in Latvia, maybe in Germany. Having a horrible time finding the 1870 birth record anywhere. Going by DNA tests whatever the German is seems like it would have to be a rather East German type German since my mom gets nothing but Eastern European and Finnish and Siberian on Geno 2.0 NG and only gets a modest bit of Broadly Northwestern European on 23 and not at all 25% or even 12%.
Funny that the one line we thought we be the only line we'd be able to trace is turning into the only line we can't trace!

wombatofthenorth
06-10-2016, 11:28 PM
Oh also between Geno 2.0, 23 and Geno 2.0 NG it seems my mom is negative for all of the main a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h sub-branches of k1a4a1 (although partially positive for a couple of them I think (in at least one case it was positive for one the back mutation markers but negative for the positive and I think the same in another branch too and I think also one early backmutation too apparently that spot is known to flip a lot though), i.e. a pretty weird pattern).

Abd.H
06-11-2016, 01:21 PM
How can I determine my further subgroups?
I received my results just as K1a ,but i saw most people results as k1a4a1 ,K1a10a or K1a1b1 etc..

dp
06-11-2016, 02:25 PM
It depends on who you tested with and what base positions they tested. Can you give us a list of the + and - results, or maybe in the form T16311C.
dp :-)

How can I determine my further subgroups?
I received my results just as K1a ,but i saw most people results as k1a4a1 ,K1a10a or K1a1b1 etc..

Abd.H
06-11-2016, 03:01 PM
I tested mtFull Sequence with ftdna and these are the results
Where can i find my list of the + and - results?
9755

dp
06-11-2016, 04:00 PM
Thanks. I assumed you were using a 23andme kit. I'd say since you are at FTDNA that what they report is accurate.
K1a is found in the Med area. 2 kits from Perdasdefogu, Sardinia in Fraumene (2006) were K1a4-C14947T, Two kits in (Behar 2012b) were K1a-T961C. [These may have defined into branches not recognized when I did this in 2012] Other K1a's that were K1a's not above, were from Portugal (Pereira 2007), 2 from Italy (Gasparre 2007), 2 South Tyrol Italy (Pichler 2010), a Tunisia (Costa 2009), a Lebanese FTDNA kit, a possible Austrian (Kloss-Brandstatter 2010), one kit from Yerevan, Armenia and one from Baku, Azerbaijan (Schonberg 2011), two FTDNA Armenian, one FTDNA Canada French, and 35 other FTDNA kits from not specified (Behar 2012b). Sorry not in order but that gives donor ethnicity of K1a's on GENBANK not otherwise rectified into lower subclades as of end of 2012.
dp :-)

I tested mtFull Sequence with ftdna and these are the results
Where can i find my list of the + and - results?
9755

Abd.H
06-11-2016, 05:07 PM
Thanks David
You mean that maybe I am just K1a and I don't have younger subclade ?
Any way I joined K mtDNA Haplogroup Project and I just have one match from Poland
9756

dp
06-15-2016, 06:16 PM
Harmoush,
I'm responding to your K1a28 posting here to keep this thread together.
The currently recognized branches of K1a are (in reverse order):


From Phylotree Build 17
K1a31: C150T T8952C
K1a30: C150T G15650A
K1a29: T8187C
K1a28: T466C T6017C G9287A C15544T
K1a27: A7202G C16176T
K1a26: T195C! G4113A
K1a25: T152C! A4158G T14308C
K1a24: C150T C15625a
K1a23: T5093C
K1a20-K1a22: not defined
K1a19: T12338C
K1a18: T6680C A6881G
K1a17: G247A! T4561C T15670C
K1a16: T195C! T6367C
K1a15: T195C! G8155A
K1a14: T195C! G8020A T9977C C15626T
K1a13: T195C! T146C! G1709A A9545G
K1a12: G5460A
K1a11: C150T A16t T199C 8281-8289d T9938C G16129A!
K1a10: T195C! G16048A
K1a9: T195C! A16524G
K1a8: C295a
K1a7: C431a
K1a6: G8790A T10454C C16527T
K1a5: T11017C
K1a4: T11485C
K1a3: A13117G
K1a2: T11025C
K1a1: (C144T) G11914A!

Your kit can not be resolved into a lower branch at this time.
Yours,
dp :-)

vettor
09-08-2016, 06:11 PM
How can I find matches with this mutation from my Wife's marker ..........she is plain K1a4 and all other extensions to this marker are noted as negative, but she has ....as per Ian Logan

As for your wife's sequence she does have a unique mutation:
A12273G - mutation in tRNA for Leucine (CUN) (MT-L2) . . . . . Unique in this sequence

wombatofthenorth
09-10-2016, 06:49 PM
I haven't found the Genographic Project to be helpful or accurate in their predictions of origins. That isn't to say that they are wrong in this case; I myself have no idea where K1a4a1 originated (frustratingly). I'm only saying their track record isn't great.

Edited to add: If you look at the bottom of the K1a4a1 map you will read, "Note: This branch is not accompanied by a major movement on the map, and research on this branch is continuing."

You will see the same note on all of the branches below K.

I don't know it seems reasonable to me when you see where it is found that it probably came late (relatively speaking) out of Anatolia or some area around there like they suggest.

wombatofthenorth
09-10-2016, 06:55 PM
Oh also between Geno 2.0, 23 and Geno 2.0 NG it seems my mom is negative for all of the main a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h sub-branches of k1a4a1 (although partially positive for a couple of them I think (in at least one case it was positive for one the back mutation markers but negative for the positive and I think the same in another branch too and I think also one early backmutation too apparently that spot is known to flip a lot though), i.e. a pretty weird pattern).

An update, we have finally broken through a bit on my mom's Germans living in Latvia side. One interesting thing is it seems like the strictly maternal line of that group might actually trace back to the Netherlands to someone born around 1810-1828.

Again it seems curious that we negative for all the many known little sub-groups and yet though test positive for one of the defining markers for 2 or 3 of those sub-groups but negative for the other defining sub-group marker(s) so it seems odd to be partially positive for a few different of the sub-groups (and not in a pattern that seems to easily track well).

David Mc
09-11-2016, 12:17 AM
I don't know it seems reasonable to me when you see where it is found that it probably came late (relatively speaking) out of Anatolia or some area around there like they suggest.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. You don't know what seems reasonable?

dp
09-12-2016, 08:16 PM
How can I find matches with this mutation from my Wife's marker ..........she is plain K1a4 and all other extensions to this marker are noted as negative, but she has ....as per Ian Logan

As for your wife's sequence she does have a unique mutation:
A12273G - mutation in tRNA for Leucine (CUN) (MT-L2) . . . . . Unique in this sequence


is this her kit:
11581
if not there is more than one with that polymorphism.
-dp

vettor
09-13-2016, 05:43 AM
is this her kit:
11581
if not there is more than one with that polymorphism.
-dp

yes it is ..........Genbank seems to have changed it back to K1a4

Dewsloth
09-14-2016, 04:49 AM
I may be not be correct for this instance, but 16093 is notorious for being hard to read. I have seen many Y's in Fasta's there, so it's either a C or a T for the derived allele but they didn't know which. See if that may be the case.
As far a K1a29, I'm not up with the newer haplogroup designations. When I ran K's from GEDBANK in 2012-2013 the highest I found were K1a27s, viz.:
K1a27 JN415475 France ?Lebanese Achilli (2012)
K1a27 JQ705460 Behar (2012).

I checked at Phylotree. You need to check for a C at 11485, a C at 8167, for both of them.
Have both had full mtGenome scans?
Partial ones, like 23andme does can have errors due to lack of testing in defining positions.
I assume your wife was tested at 11485 for a C which got her into K1a4.
Only if your son was tested at both positions and came 11485T then they could use 8167C to place him in K1a29. If this is the case then you need to make sure your wife was tested at both.
Hope this helps,
dp :-)

Sorry, so a "Y" is inconclusive? I'm obviously not a K, but I found this thread because it's the only one in the forum which mentions C16189Y, which I just got from FTDNA, and I don't have the slightest idea what it means.

wombatofthenorth
09-15-2016, 09:05 PM
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. You don't know what seems reasonable?

It seems reasonable to me that it might have come out of Anatolia (which in an earlier post you had seemed to think wasn't all that reasonable).

David Mc
09-15-2016, 10:49 PM
And that's what threw me. When I started this thread back in January 24th 2014 the prevailing wisdom was that it was European, with one person suggesting that it came to Europe from the Steppe in the Bronze Age. I suggested that it was, in fact, in Europe long before that. The next day I posted that the latest aDNA suggested that it was descended from the LBK and Epicardial cultures, and therefore originated in the Near East. Pretty much every post I've written has been in favor of a Near Eastern origin which entered Europe via Anatolia.

My issue with placing an Anatolian origin down for K1a4a1 specifically is that the earliest K1a4a1 we have is from the Cardial culture in Spain. Again, it is situated in a population whose origins lie in the Near East, but we don't know whether it was born in Europe or Anatolia. My comments regarding the Genographic project were not a rejection of Anatolian/Near Eastern origins, they were a dismissal of the Genographic Project as a reliable source on ancient origins.

CamulogŤne Rix
10-07-2016, 06:59 PM
Happy to join the club! My matrilinear ancestors come from western Germany (Baden-Wurtemberg). In FTDNA I have several 'exact match' with people having chiefly Scandinavian, Anglo-Saxon or Scottish roots.

wombatofthenorth
01-14-2017, 07:32 AM
Got mtDNA full in and am k1a4a1 and not any sub-branch a-i. Have two stable extras in CR. We have one exact match and one match that is missing one of the two stable extras. So I guess that means the group of us could form a new sub-branch k1a4a1j and the ones of us with both the two stable extras a new sub-sub-branch k1a4a1j1. Not sure who names them or how many on a branch before they bother though. But it seems like a new j and j1 branch could be formed now.

MiraOsijek
05-12-2017, 05:13 AM
My mother just got her FTDna results! One more K1a4. My maternal ancestor's earliest known origins are from Sinj (Croatia) around 1750. We are Croatians.

Tomoboy092
07-17-2017, 06:49 PM
My dad and my maternal grandmother are k1a4a1 and for hundreds of years they lived in a small village in Warwickshire central England. k1a4a1 seems too be pretty rare in England am I right in this assumption ?

J1 DYS388=13
07-17-2017, 07:37 PM
My dad and my maternal grandmother are k1a4a1 and for hundreds of years they lived in a small village in Warwickshire central England. k1a4a1 seems too be pretty rare in England am I right in this assumption ?

Wow, K1a4a1 is the type from one of the Amesbury skeletons. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml

vettor
04-30-2019, 06:24 AM
My wife new marker ( an o added )


K1a4o T16304C formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp

id:KT697997.1SRB
id:YF19558 ITA [IT-TV]new

she matches KT697997 .............is there a way to find further info on this ?

J1 DYS388=13
04-30-2019, 07:18 AM
It's from Serbia https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/KT697997.1

vettor
04-30-2019, 06:21 PM
It's from Serbia https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/KT697997.1

thanks

I ask in facebook if my wife's genbank Id can be used in yfull ...............they said they are thinking about it

her ydna is R1a-Z282 and I cannot find any slavic with this
after many admixture tests through gedmatch.

below is an ancient sample test


MDLP K11 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 40.96
2 WHG 24.50
3 EHG 23.04
4 Basal 7.06
5 Iran-Mesolithic 2.86


Finished reading population data. 161 populations found.
11 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Maros_BA @ 11.843218
2 Germany_BA @ 13.284682
3 Germany_Bronze_Age @ 13.284682
4 Vatya_MBA @ 13.990249
5 British_Celtic @ 16.893557
6 Alberstedt_LN @ 18.057152
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany @ 18.205614
8 Hungary_BA @ 18.605776
9 British_IronAge @ 19.312742
10 Hungary_MBA @ 19.500891
11 Halberstadt_LBA @ 20.020096
12 Hungary_IronAge @ 20.278336
13 Bell_Beaker @ 21.606188
14 Bell_Beaker_Czech @ 21.805529
15 Nordic_MN_B @ 21.891865
16 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN @ 22.581715
17 Nordic_BA @ 22.757250
18 British_AngloSaxon @ 22.882101
19 Nordic_LN @ 23.122774
20 Nordic_BattleAxe @ 23.908930

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Corded_Ware_Germany +50% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 2.182456

Adamm
11-14-2019, 10:14 AM
I'm K1a4a1 and I wonder how common it is in North Africa?

Solothurn
11-14-2019, 11:45 AM
My wife is K1a4a1b1 from Cheshire England. 2,500 BCE. No GD=0 matches although 25 matches 1-3. All seem European in origin.

Age taken from here http://thecid.com/mtdnatree/individuals.html

J1 DYS388=13
11-14-2019, 01:28 PM
No K1a4a1 on these projects: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/maghreb?iframe=mtresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlgeriaDNA?iframe=mtresults
Can't see these results: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/morocco-dn-aproject/dna-results

CelticGypsy
06-10-2020, 11:38 PM
I'm K1a4a1d and I am clueless what that means.

J1 DYS388=13
06-11-2020, 07:44 AM
I'm K1a4a1d and I am clueless what that means.

K1a4a1d is one of the most recent branches of K1a4, a type which flourished after coming to Europe in the Neolithic. K1a4a1d only seems to exist in Germany, England, and Ireland (apart from emigrant populations such as the USA). For a collection of cases of K1a4a1d, see Family Tree DNA's mtDNA K Project (possibly one of those cases is yours) at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K?iframe=mtresults

I posted a summary of K1a4 on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/groups/2359809881

David Mc
05-10-2021, 11:10 PM
I was excited to find this paper, which locates my particular (and rather rare) branch of K1a4a1i in ) Herxheim, Germany in the context of LBK (Linear Pottery culture).

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.23.394502v1.full.pdf

vettor
05-15-2021, 06:25 PM
my wife marker went from K1a4*

to K1a4p in yfull ( western balkans )

no change to any other on my families listings

David Mc
05-15-2021, 07:38 PM
my wife marker went from K1a4*

to K1a4p in yfull ( western balkans )

no change to any other on my families listings

It's always nice to have a bit of movement. Congratulations.

vettor
05-16-2021, 03:26 AM
It's always nice to have a bit of movement. Congratulations.

thanks

7 years for 1st upgrade to her marker .....its been a long wait