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alienalp
01-25-2020, 02:10 AM
Or about J1a3. There is nothing on internet. When i search those haplogroups :D i see my own reddit post which i have deleted later and another topic from this forum :D
Any help appreciated.
J-Z2215 > J-Y29696 > J-PF7261 > J-PH128 > J-Y30278 > J-F17410
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F17410/

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject?iframe=yresults

There are four people from F17410 and its parent. One from Iran and others from Armenia.
One has very Turkish name. And others has Arabic and Persian names.
Genetic testing is very rare in my country so it is not surprising there is nobody from Turkey and it is not surprising there are Armenians since there was bidirectional assimilation. Though all of those surnames being Turkish or Arabic/Persian is important point.

konian lusitanum
01-25-2020, 04:53 AM
there is , plenty masters in DNA here that can help you , maybe are busy at moment as soon they come online you going get some information about your haplogroup

J1 DYS388=13
01-25-2020, 05:19 PM
deleted

Ilgar
01-25-2020, 06:54 PM
Salam qardaş. Could you please write down your known SNP?

alienalp
01-25-2020, 07:21 PM
J1a3b is a European branch of J1. It is shown as J-Z18463 on this tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z18463/

An example of J1a3b in Turkey would be very significant.

Where can I see the full information about your results?


Edit: Never mind. I see from your other post you mean J1a3b on the ISOGG tree, not the FTDNA tree.

Lol. What does this supposed to mean? So isogg and FTDNA have different trees? Isn't that haplogroup subclade of J1a2 ?

And genetic testing in Turkey extremely rare. There may be people who carry that haplogroup how can you know.

alienalp
01-25-2020, 07:24 PM
Salam qardaş. Could you please write down your known SNP?

Aleyküm selam. I have full genome sequence. Which ones you want? I have checked many mutation from isogg database. All of them were positive for J1a3b and also i am negative for j1a3b1 mutations.

Ilgar
01-25-2020, 07:43 PM
Got it. So you should have Bam file then, right?

alienalp
01-25-2020, 08:03 PM
Yes. i updated first message with ftdna ytree link.

Ilgar
01-25-2020, 08:15 PM
Yes. i updated first message with ftdna ytree link.

Upload your bam file to yfull, it will show you your genetic matches, calculations and so on.

alienalp
01-25-2020, 08:37 PM
Upload your bam file to yfull, it will show you your genetic matches, calculations and so on.

It doesnt seem like free :D

Ilgar
01-26-2020, 02:42 AM
Yaklaşık 50 usd olalı. İlk olarak para ödemeden indir, bakalım seni hangi subklada ait edecekler. Sonradan ücreti ödemezsen silerler :D

alienalp
01-26-2020, 01:50 PM
Yaklaşık 50 usd olalı. İlk olarak para ödemeden indir, bakalım seni hangi subklada ait edecekler. Sonradan ücreti ödemezsen silerler :D

I already found my subclade. It is in my first post. By the way what is Y-DNA (M) ? Is it y-dna haplogroup of mother's father ?

J1 DYS388=13
01-26-2020, 01:59 PM
Can't you post exactly what Full Genomes told you? Something like "Your terminal SNP is J-FGCxxxxx" or "Your branch is J1 M267" or "Your location on the Y-DNA tree is ..."

alienalp
01-26-2020, 02:10 PM
Can't you post exactly what Full Genomes told you? Something like "Your terminal SNP is J-FGCxxxxx" or "Your branch is J1 M267" or "Your location on the Y-DNA tree is ..."

My full genome sequence does not give my y-dna haplogroup. I found it by checking SNP's manually. Actually back then when i have only MyHeritage raw data i did write small script that parses isogg database and finds haplogroup from available SNP's. So i already know my haplogroup was J1 for sure and most likely j1a3b.
My terminal subclade is J-F17410 in FTDNA tree. And it is called j1a3b in isogg tree. So i am also J1 M267 branch.

J1 DYS388=13
01-26-2020, 02:17 PM
The Full Genomes web site says: "Y-Chromosome Sequencing and Analysis
Searching for your ancestral lineage? Y-Chromosome Sequencing provides detailed insight into your fatherline. Our in-depth analysis will trace your lineage back through specific regions of the world, giving you a fuller understanding of your family’s history, as well as insight into more recent mutations in your genetic code that make you unique. Through our comprehensive database, you’ll also gain access to our Y-DNA tree, with an interactive graphic map to bring your history to life." Do you have access to the Full Genomes Y-DNA tree?

alienalp
01-26-2020, 02:28 PM
The Full Genomes web site says: "Y-Chromosome Sequencing and Analysis
Searching for your ancestral lineage? Y-Chromosome Sequencing provides detailed insight into your fatherline. Our in-depth analysis will trace your lineage back through specific regions of the world, giving you a fuller understanding of your family’s history, as well as insight into more recent mutations in your genetic code that make you unique. Through our comprehensive database, you’ll also gain access to our Y-DNA tree, with an interactive graphic map to bring your history to life." Do you have access to the Full Genomes Y-DNA tree?

I did it with Dante Labs and they don't provide any information or utility related to Y-dna. But its not important since SNPs are publicly available and you can find your haplogroup by yourself.

J1 DYS388=13
01-26-2020, 02:36 PM
Well then it appears that you already know more about J-F17410 than anyone else does, except that its age is estimated at 2200 years: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F17410/

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 03:02 PM
My terminal subclade is J-F17410 in FTDNA tree. And it is called j1a3b in isogg tree. So i am also J1 M267 branch.
I'd say that an Armenian origin is possible. This is based on the fact that there is already a F17410* sample from Armenia as well as a couple Serbs who are F17410>FT19410. I think it's pretty clear that these Serbs are the descendants of Armenians who were settled in the Balkans by the Byzantines, this is supported by the fact that FT19410 split from F17410 some time during the Early Medieval (6th Century AD). Armenian settlement in the Balkans dates between the 6th and 11th Centuries and was primarily centered on the provinces located in modern day Bulgaria. The brother clades of F17410, Y85140 and S695, are also primarily found in Armenians.

Some of the PF7261+ or Y30278+ Armenian samples are from Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran which would explain the Turkish, Arabic and Persian surnames.

alienalp
01-26-2020, 03:43 PM
I'd say that an Armenian origin is possible. This is based on the fact that there is already a F17410* sample from Armenia as well as a couple Serbs who are F17410>FT19410. I think it's pretty clear that these Serbs are the descendants of Armenians who were settled in the Balkans by the Byzantines, this is supported by the fact that FT19410 split from F17410 some time during the Early Medieval (6th Century AD). Armenian settlement in the Balkans dates between the 6th and 11th Centuries and was primarily centered on the provinces located in modern day Bulgaria. The brother clades of F17410, Y85140 and S695, are also primarily found in Armenians.

Some of the PF7261+ or Y30278+ Armenian samples are from Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran which would explain the Turkish, Arabic and Persian surnames.

Armenians and Turks are seriously mixed and great portion of Turkey genetically very close with Armenians. If there is a haplogroup found in Armenians then it is also found in Turkey. It is just genetic testing is seriously rare in Turkey and in other Turkic communities. Meanwhile it is seriously common among Armenians. For example my mother side actually genetically more Caucasian and more close to Armenians than my father side.
Also fun fact that Armenians are genetically way way more close to Turkomans than overall Turkey.

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 03:52 PM
Armenians and Turks are seriously mixed and great portion of Turkey genetically very close with Armenians. If there is a haplogroup found in Armenians then it is also found in Turkey. It is just genetic testing is seriously rare in Turkey and in other Turkic communities. Meanwhile it is seriously common among Armenians. For example my mother side actually genetically more Caucasian and more close to Armenians than my father side.
It's expected that two neighbouring peoples would mix with each other, it happens in most regions of the world. It is clear though that J-F17410 itself can be linked to the Armenians. Even the formation date, ~2,200 years ago, fits in with the period of time in which the Artaxiad dynasty was reigning over the Kingdom of Armenia (from 189 BCE to 12 AD).

alienalp
01-26-2020, 04:28 PM
It's expected that two neighbouring peoples would mix with each other, it happens in most regions of the world. It is clear though that J-F17410 itself can be linked to the Armenians. Even the formation date, ~2,200 years ago, fits in with the period of time in which the Artaxiad dynasty was reigning over the Kingdom of Armenia (from 189 BCE to 12 AD).

When you go to parents. You see there is a huge. Really huge gaps between parents and there is literally nothing between https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y29696/ and J-F17410. If it was Armenian origin it was very likely that we would see Armenian samples in parent branches. There isn't single Armenians sample withing 14600 ybp until 2200 ypb. So most probably this haplogroup got into Armenians later than 2200 ypb. And statistically it is very unlikely to assume it happened 2200 years ago.
There is a sibling branch of J-Y29696 which is J-Z2217 and it has soo many sample. J-Y29696 is like joke despite it has formed about 14600 years ago. There is only 14 sample including me. It is so rare that they may create new branch upon interpreting my raw data :D I sent my data to yfull. Hopefully i will be founder of my own branch :D (I actually don't know shit about this. Just talkin :D)

It seems like yfull put me to J-PH128 despite i have checked so many snps and they were positive for J-F17410F and parents between J-PH128. This probably means some parent will become sibling if there isn't errors with my raw data because this is not possible. Though they didn't completed process yet.

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 04:42 PM
When you go to parents. You see there is a huge. Really huge gaps between parents and there is literally nothing between https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y29696/ and J-F17410. If it was Armenian origin it was very likely that we would see Armenian samples in parent branches. There isn't single Armenians sample withing 14600 ybp until 2200 ypb. So most probably this haplogroup got into Armenians later than 2200 ypb. And statistically it is very unlikely to assume it happened 2200 years ago.
There is a sibling branch of J-Y29696 which is J-Z2217 and it has soo many sample. J-Y29696 is like joke despite it has formed about 14600 years ago. There is only 14 sample including me. It is so rare that they may create new branch upon interpreting my raw data :D I sent my data to yfull. Hopefully i will be founder of my own branch :D (I actually don't know shit about this. Just talkin :D)
Well, J-F17410 is a downstream of Y30278 which in turn is a downstream of Y29696>PF7261>PH128. J-Y30278 itself is ~8,500 years old which would mean that it originated sometime during the Neolithic, probably somewhere around Eastern Anatolia or Transcaucasia. Which means that it's a local clade that was absorbed by incomers, in this case IE speakers such as Armenians. However, the TMRCA of Y30278 and the formation age of its downstreams (F17410, Y85140 and S695) is only ~2,200ybp. This means that the common ancestor lived during the 2nd Century BCE (181 BCE), based on the fact that Y30278 is most diverse and common among Armenians, I'd say that the common ancestor was an Armenian who lived within the Kingdom of Armenia (funnily enough the Artaxiad dynasty took control over the kingdom in 189 BCE, under Artaxias I). And so, we can assume that the current 3 clades under Y30278 are of Armenian origin and spread with them.

alienalp
01-26-2020, 04:52 PM
Well, J-F17410 is a downstream of Y30278 which in turn is a downstream of Y29696>PF7261>PH128. J-Y30278 itself is ~8,500 years old which would mean that it originated sometime during the Neolithic, probably somewhere around Eastern Anatolia or Transcaucasia. Which means that it's a local clade that was absorbed by incomers, in this case IE speakers such as Armenians. However, the TMRCA of Y30278 and the formation age of its downstreams (F17410, Y85140 and S695) is only ~2,200ybp. This means that the common ancestor lived during the 2nd Century BCE (181 BCE), based on the fact that Y30278 is most diverse and common among Armenians, I'd say that the common ancestor was an Armenian who lived within the Kingdom of Armenia (funnily enough the Artaxiad dynasty took control over the kingdom in 189 BCE, under Artaxias I). And so, we can assume that the current 3 clades under Y30278 are of Armenian origin and spread with them.

It seems like yfull put me to https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH128/ (The one with new tag should me). It seems like they need to change tree because I am positive for J-F17410F and checked many SNPs from its parents. So current tree needs to be changed if it is not because they didn't completed interpretation process yet. Maybe there is a wrong defining SNP in J-Y30278. I will manually check all SNPs.

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 05:03 PM
It seems like yfull put me to https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH128/ (The one with new tag should me). It seems like they need to change tree because I am positive for J-F17410F and checked many SNPs from its parents. So current tree needs to be changed if it is not because they didn't completed interpretation process yet. Maybe there is a wrong defining SNP in J-Y30278. I will manually check all SNPs.
I see, so is your kit id YF68142? It's possible that they haven't finished analysis, but you still shouldn't be classified as PH128* if you're indeed F17410+. Who are your closest matches on Yfull?

alienalp
01-26-2020, 06:03 PM
I see, so is your kit id YF68142? It's possible that they haven't finished analysis, but you still shouldn't be classified as PH128* if you're indeed F17410+. Who are your closest matches on Yfull?

I feel like idiot but it seems like it was my mistake. I mean at first i have checked SNPs correctly but later i am confused which clade i was from :D. I am J1a3 and negative for J1a3a or b. It was my mistake. I was so sure that i was thinking yfull tree is wrong. LOL, i feel idiot now.

Edit: Though I am positive for 2 of J1a3a (There are 5) mutations from isogg tree.

Ilgar
01-26-2020, 07:10 PM
Honestly this looks like a sampling bias as armenians are being tested too much. I guess those people can be result of armenisation since we know real hindo european armenians are under R1b and I2.

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 07:10 PM
I feel like idiot but it seems like it was my mistake. I mean at first i have checked SNPs correctly but later i am confused which clade i was from :D. I am J1a3 and negative for J1a3a or b. It was my mistake. I was so sure that i was thinking yfull tree is wrong. LOL, i feel idiot now.

Edit: Though I am positive for 2 of J1a3a (There are 5) mutations from isogg tree.
So you are negative for F17410? I'm not too familiar with the Isogg nomenclatures. What SNPs did FTDNA test you as positive for?

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 07:13 PM
Honestly this looks like a sampling bias as armenians are being tested too much. I guess those people can be result of armenisation since we know real hindo european armenians are under R1b and I2.
Well yeah, J-Y30278 was at one point in time absorbed by the Armenians as it is local to the region, the Armenians on the other hand are IE incomers. Point is that the downstreams seem to correlate best with the Armenians and their expansions.

Ilgar
01-26-2020, 07:16 PM
Also fun fact that Armenians are genetically way way more close to Turkomans than overall Turkey.
LOL how did you figure out that? :D Have you seen any turkoman sample other than mine? I mean real turkoman with archive paper trail etc. By the way that dude with Azerbaijani flag under J-S695 is ethnic armenian we know him personally ...

alienalp
01-26-2020, 07:27 PM
So you are negative for F17410? I'm not too familiar with the Isogg nomenclatures. What SNPs did FTDNA test you as positive for?

Yeah i am positive for J-PH128 and negative for J-Y30278 (parent of F17410). I don't have my account information yet. There is a Sardinian with me And we are seriously distant with J-Y30278 (62 SNP which i am checking manually right now and all seem like negative)

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 07:33 PM
Yeah i am positive for J-PH128 and negative for J-Y30278 (parent of F17410). I don't have my account information yet. There is a Sardinian with me And we are seriously distant with J-Y30278 (62 SNP which i am checking manually right now and all seem like negative)
Ah, okay. This is interesting as it would mean that you will probably form a new cluster under PH128. This would support an origin around Anatolia and Transcaucasia. It's pretty safe to say that your paternal ancestor was a local of the region who was assimilated by the arriving Turks. Can't exactly say from what culture or group though. Should note however that there is an ethnic Armenian from Turkey who is seemingly PF7257* (PH128). There are also some PH128 samples from Italy, England, Northern Ireland, Greece, Bosnia, Serbia Iran, Ukraine and Armenia on the FTDNA Y-Tree.

Where in Turkey is your paternal side from by the way?

alienalp
01-26-2020, 07:38 PM
LOL how did you figure out that? :D Have you seen any turkoman sample other than mine? I mean real turkoman with archive paper trail etc. By the way that dude with Azerbaijani flag under J-S695 is ethnic armenian we know him personally ...

It is not about Y-dna. It is been a while since i have seen it but it was done by Armenians. It was comparing Armenians with Central Asian Turkic countries.

alienalp
01-26-2020, 07:40 PM
Ah, okay. This is interesting as it would mean that you will probably form a new cluster under PH128. This would support an origin around Anatolia and Transcaucasia. It's pretty safe to say that your paternal ancestor was a local of the region who was assimilated by the arriving Turks. Can't exactly say from what culture or group though.

Where in Turkey is your paternal side from by the way?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Alanya,+Antalya/@36.5438362,31.9950995,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x14dca27b822cd5fb:0xd160c 1c8b3dc170b!8m2!3d36.5443978!4d31.9956207

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 07:42 PM
It is not about Y-dna. It is been a while since i have seen it but it was done by Armenians. It was comparing Armenians with Central Asian Turkic countries.
In terms of auDNA Armenians are pretty distant to Turkmens and are far closer to Turks from Turkey. They're also pretty close to Azeris.

Armenian Average
0.02178378 Turkish_Trabzon
0.05085342 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05352174 Azeri_Turkey
0.05780534 Azeri
0.05814177 Turkish_Adana
0.06540068 Turkish_Central
0.06585907 Azeri_Dagestan
0.07179985 Turkish_Istanbul
0.09464277 Turkish_Northwest
0.09471084 Turkish_North
0.09519421 Turkish_Aydin
0.09754601 Turkish_Southwest
0.10118279 Turkish_Balikesir
0.10219177 Turkish_South
0.11413242 Turkish_Balkans
0.19981815 Turkmen
0.21017426 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Ilgar
01-26-2020, 07:46 PM
Ah, okay. This is interesting as it would mean that you will probably form a new cluster under PH128. This would support an origin around Anatolia and Transcaucasia. It's pretty safe to say that your paternal ancestor was a local of the region who was assimilated by the arriving Turks. Can't exactly say from what culture or group though.

Where in Turkey is your paternal side from by the way?

Well I wouldn't rush considering he has no matches at all. And also 7-8000 tmrca is enough time to visit central asia and back migrate as a turk. We know that Oguz turks were already mix of haplogroups while counquering anatolia, even today turkmens from central asia have 5-8 % p58. Nevertheless, yes there is high possibility for alienalp having local ancestor.

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 07:50 PM
Well I wouldn't rush considering he has no matches at all. And also 7-8000 tmrca is enough time to visit central asia and back migrate as a turk. We know that Oguz turks were already mix of haplogroups while counquering anatolia, even today turkmens from central asia have 5-8 % p58. Nevertheless, yes there is high possibility for alienalp having local ancestor.
True, it is possible. But, in my opinion, pretty unlikely. Your cluster is pretty interesting in regards to this as it seems to be made up of individuals who are of Turkmen ancestry.

alienalp
01-26-2020, 08:02 PM
In terms of auDNA Armenians are pretty distant to Turkmens and are far closer to Turks from Turkey. They're also pretty close to Azeris.

Armenian Average
0.02178378 Turkish_Trabzon
0.05085342 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05352174 Azeri_Turkey
0.05780534 Azeri
0.05814177 Turkish_Adana
0.06540068 Turkish_Central
0.06585907 Azeri_Dagestan
0.07179985 Turkish_Istanbul
0.09464277 Turkish_Northwest
0.09471084 Turkish_North
0.09519421 Turkish_Aydin
0.09754601 Turkish_Southwest
0.10118279 Turkish_Balikesir
0.10219177 Turkish_South
0.11413242 Turkish_Balkans
0.19981815 Turkmen
0.21017426 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

You are right. I was trying to say Armenians more closer to Turkomans than how much Turks close to Turkomans.


Well I wouldn't rush considering he has no matches at all. And also 7-8000 tmrca is enough time to visit central asia and back migrate as a turk. We know that Oguz turks were already mix of haplogroups while counquering anatolia, even today turkmens from central asia have 5-8 % p58. Nevertheless, yes there is high possibility for alienalp having local ancestor.
There are studies that link all agglutinative languages to each other. I mean propose that all of those languages diverged from same language. Including Sumerian and Turkic language and there are studies that links Turkic languages and Sumerian.
Obviously i am most probably didn't come from Central Asia in recent history but GOD knows how many times different group of people in Anatolia assimilated.

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 08:11 PM
You are right. I was trying to say Armenians more closer to Turkomans than how much Turks close to Turkomans.


There are studies that link all agglutinative languages to each other. I mean propose that all of those languages diverged from same language. Including Sumerian and Turkic language and there are studies that links Turkic languages and Sumerian.
Obviously i am most probably didn't come from Central Asia in recent history but GOD knows how many times different group of people in Anatolia assimilated.
Turks are actually closer to Turkmens than Armenians are. Only those from Trabzon are very distant to Turkmens.

Distance to: Turkish_Trabzon
0.20350288 Turkmen
0.21424265 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Southwest
0.11075969 Turkmen
0.12098441 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_South
0.10108624 Turkmen
0.11156071 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Northwest
0.11569111 Turkmen
0.12658985 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_North
0.10984576 Turkmen
0.12085928 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Kayseri
0.15268812 Turkmen
0.16324753 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Istanbul
0.14840014 Turkmen
0.15903287 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Central
0.13829641 Turkmen
0.14887066 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Balkans
0.15823235 Turkmen
0.16854851 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Balikesir
0.11151503 Turkmen
0.12175955 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Aydin
0.11409894 Turkmen
0.12477682 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Adana
0.14604673 Turkmen
0.15646470 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Any study connecting Sumerian to the Turkic languages shouldn't be taken seriously.

alienalp
01-26-2020, 08:14 PM
Any study connecting Sumerian to the Turkic languages shouldn't be taken seriously.

Why do you think that ? There are serious people thinks this is possible.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3c8f/69b8dbedd197e09a3d5f2af720b5ac84faa3.pdf
http://www.federatio.org/mi_bibl/AlfredToth_Agglutinative.pdf
https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37380

It seems like the guy tagget with new not me

Kelmendasi
01-26-2020, 08:29 PM
Why do you think that ? There are serious people thinks this is possible.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3c8f/69b8dbedd197e09a3d5f2af720b5ac84faa3.pdf
http://www.federatio.org/mi_bibl/AlfredToth_Agglutinative.pdf
https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37380
Well they can be serious in believing it, doesn't mean that they are credible. Practically every credible linguist has come to the conclusion that the Sumerian language was a language isolate, a language that formed its own branch separate from every other language group. It's also pretty clear that the Sumerians were locals in the region and spoke a native language.

Turkic on the other hand is a large language family that seems to have originated between the areas of modern day Kazakhstan and Mongolia (possibly around the Altai mountain range). It's also pretty clear that the origin of Proto-Turkic post-dates the Bronze Age and is younger than Sumerian. The Turkic languages are far closer to the Mongolic languages than they are to West Eurasian language groups (Indo-European and Semitic for example), their similarities even led certain linguists to group them together (alongside Tungusic) in the hypothetical Altaic language family.

alienalp
01-26-2020, 08:57 PM
Well they can be serious in believing it, doesn't mean that they are credible. Practically every credible linguist has come to the conclusion that the Sumerian language was a language isolate, a language that formed its own branch separate from every other language group. It's also pretty clear that the Sumerians were locals in the region and spoke a native language.

Turkic on the other hand is a large language family that seems to have originated between the areas of modern day Kazakhstan and Mongolia (possibly around the Altai mountain range). It's also pretty clear that the origin of Proto-Turkic post-dates the Bronze Age and is younger than Sumerian. The Turkic languages are far closer to the Mongolic languages than they are to West Eurasian language groups (Indo-European and Semitic for example), their similarities even led certain linguists to group them together (alongside Tungusic) in the hypothetical Altaic language family.

I am really sorry but it turned out that new gut is not me and the original post is true. The reason i assumed i was wrong because ybrowser was giving hg38 coordinates and i was checking those coordinates from hg19 browser. LOL.
And i am confused because of isogg tree and didn't pay enough attention. Isogg tree is clearly wrong.
So original post is 100% accurate for sure. Sorry again.
And i found who sent the kit in the J-F17410*. Someone from a Russian forum. (http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=8559.120) And the guy who sent that kit is also from sibling subclade seems like he is very enthusiast about it. I sent him a message.

El Greco
01-26-2020, 11:54 PM
On YFULL id: YF68142 is not an alienalp. He's mine. If the alienalp is J-F17410 *, it is certainly linked to the Armenians and their westward migration within the Byzantine Empire.

alienalp
01-27-2020, 12:15 AM
On YFULL id: YF68142 is not an alienalp. He's mine. If the alienalp is J-F17410 *, it is certainly linked to the Armenians and their westward migration within the Byzantine Empire.
Yes that was a mistake by me. But i dont think this related to Armenians if it was the case there would be many Armenians from parent branches. But there is none. Those people are most probably assimilated Caucasian Christian Turks.
I actually found who sent the kit in my clade. I am waiting for reply.

El Greco
01-27-2020, 01:08 PM
At different times throughout history, different nations have lived. The Turks were first mentioned only in the 6th century, and in the 11th century they penetrated Anatolia.
As Kelmendashi says, the cluster was created 2000 years ago, when Armenia was located in the area. Byzantium was in contact with the Armenians and moved them west. The Byzantine Armenian dynasties are well known, with which the entire state apparatus was. Their descendants today live all over the Balkans and Anatolia.
If there is anyone else on YFULL with whom you will share a common ancestor in the 12th century, you can say that your ancestors then fell under Turkish (Ottoman) rule.

YFULL is the best for it.

Kelmendasi
01-27-2020, 03:20 PM
Yes that was a mistake by me. But i dont think this related to Armenians if it was the case there would be many Armenians from parent branches. But there is none. Those people are most probably assimilated Caucasian Christian Turks.
I actually found who sent the kit in my clade. I am waiting for reply.
The fact that Armenians are absent in clusters such as basal PF7261 or PH128 is irrelevant as they are over 8,000 years old, and so can't be connected to any modern population. The TMRCA for Y30278 can be linked to the Armenians with quite a bit of confidence. This common ancestor lived in a time period when a power dynasty, the Artaxiads, ruled over the Kingdom of Armenia. Also the fact that Y30278 is diverse in Armenians suggests that it can be linked to them. There is also the F17410>FT19410 Serbs who are certainly descended from Armenians who were settled by the Byzantines.

I don't see how you could link Y30278 to Turkic speakers, what groups are you referring to when you say "Caucasian Christian Turks"? The Turks only expanded into Anatolia during the 11th Century, as was stated by El Greco. The common ancestor for Y30278 carriers lived during the 2nd Century BCE, and it's clear that he was from West Asia.

alienalp
01-27-2020, 04:44 PM
The fact that Armenians are absent in clusters such as basal PF7261 or PH128 is irrelevant as they are over 8,000 years old, and so can't be connected to any modern population. The TMRCA for Y30278 can be linked to the Armenians with quite a bit of confidence. This common ancestor lived in a time period when a power dynasty, the Artaxiads, ruled over the Kingdom of Armenia. Also the fact that Y30278 is diverse in Armenians suggests that it can be linked to them. There is also the F17410>FT19410 Serbs who are certainly descended from Armenians who were settled by the Byzantines.

I don't see how you could link Y30278 to Turkic speakers, what groups are you referring to when you say "Caucasian Christian Turks"? The Turks only expanded into Anatolia during the 11th Century, as was stated by El Greco. The common ancestor for Y30278 carriers lived during the 2nd Century BCE, and it's clear that he was from West Asia.

From my father side i am genetically related to various Jewish populations and Cypriots. Cypriot Turks have different tongue and they are very distinguishable from their tongue when i first said my father that we are genetically related to Cypriots my father told me that people frequently ask him if he is from Cyprus because of the way he talks.
Also from my mother side i am genetically close to Caucasian Turks and when i searching for a Caucasian Turkic people (It was kumyks i guess) i came across with a paper about different mutations in Turkish language and places that researcher found mutation and there was a common mutation (a suffix) in Kumyk's daily language and my village's. It is very weird because my mother's village is very small and very weird coincidence that a researcher found this. Though it is something very minor.
And this is joke but my dna does not support Indo-european languages. Although i think Turkish is best language because languages should be regular. I have been struggling with learning English. My brain very stubborn about ignoring irregularities and since i learnt a regular language as my native, it finds irregularities in English is very unnecessary.

El Greco
01-27-2020, 06:51 PM
Alienalp mixes autosomal, mitochondrial and Y / DNA. One need not be stubborn and all this should be understood as relaxed as possible.
The result here is the result of a Y chromosome transmitted from father to son and having nothing to do with either language, physical appearance or nation. With it, it is easiest to trace the lineage along the male line and the migration of the ancestors with the obligatory information on historical facts.

Yours and my common ancestor PH 128 lived 8500 years ago most likely in the area of ​​present-day Armenia among the tribes that preceded the ancient Armenians.

As you can see by now, you share your SNP F17410 with an Armenian who is from an Armenian aristocratic family, but that does not mean anything to you because your common ancestor is not a nobleman but a person who lived in Armenia about 2000 years ago. We will never know the status of the ancestors, but based on available historical sources and population trends, your ancestors came from the East and settled in Antalya. They were residents of Armenia, Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey. For earlier peoples to whom your ancestors probably belonged (Hittite, Urartu ...), look in the literature.

alienalp
01-27-2020, 07:00 PM
Alienalp mixes autosomal, mitochondrial and Y / DNA. One need not be stubborn and all this should be understood as relaxed as possible.
The result here is the result of a Y chromosome transmitted from father to son and having nothing to do with either language, physical appearance or nation. With it, it is easiest to trace the lineage along the male line and the migration of the ancestors with the obligatory information on historical facts.

Yours and my common ancestor PH 128 lived 8500 years ago most likely in the area of ​​present-day Armenia among the tribes that preceded the ancient Armenians.

As you can see by now, you share your SNP F17410 with an Armenian who is from an Armenian aristocratic family, but that does not mean anything to you because your common ancestor is not a nobleman but a person who lived in Armenia about 2000 years ago. We will never know the status of the ancestors, but based on available historical sources and population trends, your ancestors came from the East and settled in Antalya. They were residents of Armenia, Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey. For earlier peoples to whom your ancestors probably belonged (Hittite, Urartu ...), look in the literature.

That is your assumption. In my last message i didn't refer to Y-dna in anywhere. Beside that i don't have mtdna test. I was talking about overall genetic composition of my parents. There are people who curious about this. Especially at that Russian forum. You are making so much assumption without any solid argument.
Beside that i have checked many Armenian in that list and frequency of Turkish/Persian/Arabic surnames not as high as to consider all of them has Turkish/Persian/Arabic surnames as coincidence. In Ottoman era Muslims didn't have surname. Christians Turks and other ethnicities had . Since Local Muslim population didn't have surname at all. For an Armenian to have Turkish surname is impossible except if he was a Christian Turk. Back then religion was real ethnicity and Christian Turks mixed lot with Armenians. However actually those Christian Turks also came from Caucasia so your assumption may be correct from that perspective.

Ilgar
01-27-2020, 07:56 PM
Again, need to check whole internet for this branch cause no nation in the region does the DNA tests like armenians do, hence it can be sampling bias. Thus, drawing conlusions based on yfull flags can be tricky here.

RCO
01-27-2020, 10:09 PM
Of course J1 has been for a long time in Eastern Anatolia and Northern Iran. In my FGC6064 branch we can find two Armenians separated by 12900 years bp - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y177646/ Eastern Anatolia is a pretty competitive region and no haplogroup prevailed or became completely hegemonic there. Another observation is that FGC6064 can be speaking Indo-European languages since PIE times and that`s a good theory just like any other because FGC6064 is very ancient and bushy around those regions.

Kelmendasi
01-28-2020, 05:13 PM
That is your assumption. In my last message i didn't refer to Y-dna in anywhere. Beside that i don't have mtdna test. I was talking about overall genetic composition of my parents. There are people who curious about this. Especially at that Russian forum. You are making so much assumption without any solid argument.
Beside that i have checked many Armenian in that list and frequency of Turkish/Persian/Arabic surnames not as high as to consider all of them has Turkish/Persian/Arabic surnames as coincidence. In Ottoman era Muslims didn't have surname. Christians Turks and other ethnicities had . Since Local Muslim population didn't have surname at all. For an Armenian to have Turkish surname is impossible except if he was a Christian Turk. Back then religion was real ethnicity and Christian Turks mixed lot with Armenians. However actually those Christian Turks also came from Caucasia so your assumption may be correct from that perspective.
As has been said before, a number of those Armenians are from Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran. As a result of this, surnames of Turkish, Persian or Arabic etymology wouldn't be something out of the ordinary. Anyways, surnames don't always say much. Have you got any genetic evidence which would suggest that these Armenians are assimilated "Christian Turks" who came from the Caucasus?

Kelmendasi
01-28-2020, 05:17 PM
Again, need to check whole internet for this branch cause no nation in the region does the DNA tests like armenians do, hence it can be sampling bias. Thus, drawing conlusions based on yfull flags can be tricky here.
Could be, but I think there's too much here that suggests a link between the downstreams of Y30278 and Armenians for it to just be a result of sampling bias. If it turns out that a new branch under Y30278 is discovered, that lacks Armenians but includes other West Asians, then I guess connecting Y30278 to the Armenians would be a lot trickier.

alienalp
01-28-2020, 06:21 PM
As has been said before, a number of those Armenians are from Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran. As a result of this, surnames of Turkish, Persian or Arabic etymology wouldn't be something out of the ordinary. Anyways, surnames don't always say much. Have you got any genetic evidence which would suggest that these Armenians are assimilated "Christian Turks" who came from the Caucasus?
Muslims never had surnames. And for example one of those guys have surname of "nazarbek-yuzbasiyan". I am not sure about nazarbek it seems like it is a name used in Kyrgyzstan but Yuzbasiyan clearly Turkish and i don't understand how an Armenian can end up with such surname unless his ancestor is someone converted from Muslim to Christian in Ottoman era or he was a Christian Turk.
The guy who is in same clade with have surname of Melik-Shahumian. Melik is Persian and Shahum is Arabic. And for instance it is similar to name of this Seljuk sultan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik-Shah_I (Coincidence that my name is his father's name :D)

Beside that on platforms like myHeritage i have never seen an Armenian match. (Though i am aware that doesn't mean anything in terms of Y-DNA)

Kelmendasi
01-28-2020, 07:02 PM
Muslims never had surnames. And for example one of those guys have surname of "nazarbek-yuzbasiyan". I am not sure about nazarbek it seems like it is a name used in Kyrgyzstan but Yuzbasiyan clearly Turkish and i don't understand how an Armenian can end up with such surname unless his ancestor is someone converted from Muslim to Christian in Ottoman era or he was a Christian Turk.
The guy who is in same clade with have surname of Melik-Shahumian. Melik is Persian and Shahum is Arabic. And for instance it is similar to name of this Seljuk sultan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik-Shah_I (Coincidence that my name is his father's name :D)

Beside that on platforms like myHeritage i have never seen an Armenian match. (Though i am aware that doesn't mean anything in terms of Y-DNA)
I don't know where you got the idea that Muslims never had surnames during the Ottoman era, could you provide some sources? Based on Ottoman registers of the Balkans, I can say for sure that Muslims did have surnames. Most of these surnames were/are of Arabic or Persian etymology. Maybe it was different for West Asia.

Nazarbek seems to be an Armenian name, or at least it is mainly found among Armenians. A noble family from Tbilisi, Georgia, went by the name Nazarbekian. They were of ethnic Armenian origin. As for the name Yuzbasiyan, from what I can see there is an artist called Arto Yuzbasiyan. He is from Istanbul, however it is noted that he is of Armenian descent http://www.robertsgallery.net/gallery-artist/arto-yuzbasiyan/. Surname itself may be of Turkic or Armenian origin though, don't really know. It is likely that Shahumian has something to do with the Shahumyan province of Azerbaijan. This province is primarily inhabited by ethnic Armenians.

You're putting too much emphasis on surnames and their etymologies. Surnames don't always say much, take the Balkans for example. Still, there is no evidence that would suggest that these Armenians are of Turkic origin. For starters you would have to specify which Turkic population they came from. On the other hand, there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting an Armenian link.

alienalp
01-28-2020, 07:22 PM
I don't know where you got the idea that Muslims never had surnames during the Ottoman era, could you provide some sources? Based on Ottoman registers of the Balkans, I can say for sure that Muslims did have surnames. Most of these surnames were/are of Arabic or Persian etymology. Maybe it was different for West Asia.

Nazarbek seems to be an Armenian name, or at least it is mainly found among Armenians. A noble family from Tbilisi, Georgia, went by the name Nazarbekian. They were of ethnic Armenian origin. As for the name Yuzbasiyan, from what I can see there is an artist called Arto Yuzbasiyan. He is from Istanbul, however it is noted that he is of Armenian descent http://www.robertsgallery.net/gallery-artist/arto-yuzbasiyan/. Surname itself may be of Turkic or Armenian origin though, don't really know. It is likely that Shahumian has something to do with the Shahumyan province of Azerbaijan. This province is primarily inhabited by ethnic Armenians.

You're putting too much emphasis on surnames and their etymologies. Surnames don't always say much, take the Balkans for example. Still, there is no evidence that would suggest that these Armenians are of Turkic origin. For starters you would have to specify which Turkic population they came from. On the other hand, there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting an Armenian link.

The things is it is fact that there are too much Christian Turk or converted Muslim mixed with Armenians and it is same for Armenians. Beside that i am just speculating. Nazarbek is not Armenian name. Nazar is Arabic and bek is Turkish. But it doesnt seem like from Turkey Turkish. I hope you are aware that Shahumyan means sons of Shahum so name of the place actually comes from an Arabic surname.
We are talking about Armenians i am aware that those guys are ethnic Armenians.

Kelmendasi
01-28-2020, 07:34 PM
The things is it is fact that there are too much Christian Turk or converted Muslim mixed with Armenians and it is same for Armenians. Beside that i am just speculating. Nazarbek is not Armenian name. Nazar is Arabic and bek is Turkish. But it doesnt seem like from Turkey Turkish. I hope you are aware that Shahumyan means sons of Shahum so name of the place actually comes from an Arabic surname.
We are talking about Armenians i am aware that those guys are ethnic Armenians.
Sure, there was mixing, but in your previous posts you stated how you thought that these Armenians are descended from Christian Turks from the Caucasus who were assimilated. I'm just curious as to what group in specific you were referring to and how you came to such conclusions...

The etymology of Nazarbek may not be Armenian (need to find sources actually confirming this), but point is that all of the individuals that bear this name are ethnic Armenians. Again, it doesn't matter if the etymology of Shahumyan is Arabic. Point was that this family took the surname possibly due to origin from the province, not necessarily because they were the descendants of an individual named Shahum. By the way, there was a famous Bolshevik by the name of Stepan Shaumian. He was an ethnic Armenian from Tbilisi, but resided in Baku. Possibly that he had origin from Azerbaijan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Shaumian

alienalp
01-28-2020, 08:05 PM
Sure, there was mixing, but in your previous posts you stated how you thought that these Armenians are descended from Christian Turks from the Caucasus who were assimilated. I'm just curious as to what group in specific you were referring to and how you came to such conclusions...

The etymology of Nazarbek may not be Armenian (need to find sources actually confirming this), but point is that all of the individuals that bear this name are ethnic Armenians. Again, it doesn't matter if the etymology of Shahumyan is Arabic. Point was that this family took the surname possibly due to origin from the province, not necessarily because they were the descendants of an individual named Shahum. By the way, there was a famous Bolshevik by the name of Stepan Shaumian. He was an ethnic Armenian from Tbilisi, but resided in Baku. Possibly that he had origin from Azerbaijan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Shaumian

I am actually just speculating :D, In context of Y-dna it doesnt matter much even if they were assimilated Turks. But i think that interaction of Armenians and people who carry this y-dna started later than 2000 ypb because otherwise we could see other branches in Armenians from parents formed in older times.

Kelmendasi
01-28-2020, 08:11 PM
I am actually just speculating :D, In context of Y-dna it doesnt matter much even if they were assimilated Turks. But i think that interaction of Armenians and people who carry this y-dna started later than 2000 ypb because otherwise we could see other branches in Armenians from parents formed in older times.
The lack of Armenians in basal PH128* or PF7261* doesn't mean much given how old these clades are (over 8,000 years old).

Anyways, lets wait for more Turks to test and see how things turn out.

Alkaevli
01-28-2020, 09:41 PM
Armenians and Turks are seriously mixed and great portion of Turkey genetically very close with Armenians.
False. Below is the traditional definition of Anatolia, the overwhelming majority of the population of Anatolia prior to the Turkish migrations was Greek-speaking.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg

Central Anatolian Turks
https://abload.de/img/adszs6jnm.png

West Anatolian Turks
https://abload.de/img/swwzklq.png

Black Sea Turks (Giresun-Ordu-Karabük)
https://abload.de/img/north3gko7.png

Turkish_Trabzon is the closest Turkish average to Armenian, but Trabzon Turks don't descend from Armenians either. Turkish_Trabzon and Greek_Trabzon are almost identical to each other, and both populations descend mostly from a population closely related to modern Laz.
https://abload.de/img/555ekkel.png


Also fun fact that Armenians are genetically way way more close to Turkomans than overall Turkey.
Is this a joke or something?

Distance to: Turkmen
0.01481804 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.06974033 Uzbek
0.07360151 Tajik
0.08030169 Tatar_Lipka
0.10108624 Turkish_South
0.10385260 Bashkir
0.10818571 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.10846884 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10984576 Turkish_North
0.11026906 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.11075969 Turkish_Southwest
0.11151503 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11248365 Tajik_Rushan
0.11409894 Turkish_Aydin
0.11416481 Tatar_Kazan
0.11569111 Turkish_Northwest
0.11641337 Kho_Singanali
0.11686250 Burusho
0.11946643 Uygur
0.12185988 Hazara
0.12301626 Besermyan
0.12450326 Nogai
0.12478298 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.12639428 Tatar_Siberian
0.12803969 Pashtun
0.12870848 Uthmankhel
0.13022136 Tarkalani
0.13114207 Udmurt
0.13246250 Yusufzai
0.13492358 Abazin
0.13628428 Roma_Balkans
0.13829641 Turkish_Central
0.13845070 Kabardin
0.13869547 Jatt_Pathak
0.13890986 Tatar_Mishar
0.13976992 Karachay
0.14032254 Kalash
0.14076722 Kohistani
0.14089649 Kamboj
0.14103015 Ror
0.14118225 Cherkes
0.14124185 Kumyk
0.14144446 Parsi_Pakistan
0.14159654 Chuvash
0.14177030 Parsi_India
0.14183078 Roma_Granada
0.14245324 Circassian
0.14287041 Balkar
0.14377402 Kashmiri_Pandit
0.14384568 Roma_Bilbao
0.14504353 Azeri
0.14604673 Turkish_Adana
0.14620735 Roma_Porto
0.14840014 Turkish_Istanbul
0.14872727 Azeri_Dagestan
0.14917041 Khatri
0.14930905 North_Ossetian
0.15009894 Karakalpak
0.15137514 Punjabi_Jatt
0.15142032 Iranian_Seyyed
0.15241701 Azeri_Turkey
0.15268812 Turkish_Kayseri
0.15336945 Iranian_Bandari
0.15349432 Iranian_Fars
0.15418048 Roma_Madrid
0.15421215 Brahui
0.15478294 Balochi
0.15485150 Komi
0.15550402 Sindhi
0.15823235 Turkish_Balkans
0.15855613 Ingushian
0.16007568 Gujar_Pakistan
0.16132789 Makrani
0.16163229 Chechen
0.16217549 Tabasaran
0.16289223 Lak
0.16376404 Adygei
0.16382294 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.16388471 Ossetian
0.16429289 Avar
0.16442279 Maori
0.16445868 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.16505643 Roma_Barcelona
0.16542895 Yukagir_Forest
0.16588979 Saami
0.16609517 Mari
0.16643145 Darginian
0.16653684 Iranian_Lor
0.16776365 Kaitag
0.16778306 Ezid
0.16789512 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.16928709 Gujar_India
0.17017143 Kubachinian
0.17204314 Brahmin_Gujarat
0.17261977 Kurdish
0.17640301 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.18315134 Brahmin_West_Bengal
0.18375548 Abkhasian
0.18548864 Tlingit
0.18618715 Kazakh
0.18773083 Mordovian
0.18869771 Syrian
0.18955880 Kshatriya
0.19075190 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.19177612 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.19234805 Georgian_Jew
0.19331112 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.19355794 Tubalar
0.19382942 Russian_Pinega
0.19403927 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
0.19457971 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.19507748 Assyrian
0.19630939 Gagauz
0.19650910 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.19680219 Iranian_Jew
0.19680841 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
0.19749787 Iyer
0.19843293 Lebanese_Muslim
0.19851762 Russian_Kostroma
0.19898464 Vepsian
0.19981815 Armenian
0.20070780 Bulgarian
0.20137292 Moldavian
0.20260602 Georgian_Laz
0.20276436 Armenian_Hemsheni

alienalp
01-28-2020, 11:18 PM
False. Below is the traditional definition of Anatolia, the overwhelming majority of the population of Anatolia prior to the Turkish migrations was Greek-speaking.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg

Central Anatolian Turks
https://abload.de/img/adszs6jnm.png

West Anatolian Turks
https://abload.de/img/swwzklq.png

Black Sea Turks (Giresun-Ordu-Karabük)
https://abload.de/img/north3gko7.png

Turkish_Trabzon is the closest Turkish average to Armenian, but Trabzon Turks don't descend from Armenians either. Turkish_Trabzon and Greek_Trabzon are almost identical to each other, and both populations descend mostly from a population closely related to modern Laz.
https://abload.de/img/555ekkel.png


Is this a joke or something?

Distance to: Turkmen
0.01481804 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.06974033 Uzbek
0.07360151 Tajik
0.08030169 Tatar_Lipka
0.10108624 Turkish_South
0.10385260 Bashkir
0.10818571 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.10846884 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10984576 Turkish_North
0.11026906 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.11075969 Turkish_Southwest
0.11151503 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11248365 Tajik_Rushan
0.11409894 Turkish_Aydin
0.11416481 Tatar_Kazan
0.11569111 Turkish_Northwest
0.11641337 Kho_Singanali
0.11686250 Burusho
0.11946643 Uygur
0.12185988 Hazara
0.12301626 Besermyan
0.12450326 Nogai
0.12478298 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.12639428 Tatar_Siberian
0.12803969 Pashtun
0.12870848 Uthmankhel
0.13022136 Tarkalani
0.13114207 Udmurt
0.13246250 Yusufzai
0.13492358 Abazin
0.13628428 Roma_Balkans
0.13829641 Turkish_Central
0.13845070 Kabardin
0.13869547 Jatt_Pathak
0.13890986 Tatar_Mishar
0.13976992 Karachay
0.14032254 Kalash
0.14076722 Kohistani
0.14089649 Kamboj
0.14103015 Ror
0.14118225 Cherkes
0.14124185 Kumyk
0.14144446 Parsi_Pakistan
0.14159654 Chuvash
0.14177030 Parsi_India
0.14183078 Roma_Granada
0.14245324 Circassian
0.14287041 Balkar
0.14377402 Kashmiri_Pandit
0.14384568 Roma_Bilbao
0.14504353 Azeri
0.14604673 Turkish_Adana
0.14620735 Roma_Porto
0.14840014 Turkish_Istanbul
0.14872727 Azeri_Dagestan
0.14917041 Khatri
0.14930905 North_Ossetian
0.15009894 Karakalpak
0.15137514 Punjabi_Jatt
0.15142032 Iranian_Seyyed
0.15241701 Azeri_Turkey
0.15268812 Turkish_Kayseri
0.15336945 Iranian_Bandari
0.15349432 Iranian_Fars
0.15418048 Roma_Madrid
0.15421215 Brahui
0.15478294 Balochi
0.15485150 Komi
0.15550402 Sindhi
0.15823235 Turkish_Balkans
0.15855613 Ingushian
0.16007568 Gujar_Pakistan
0.16132789 Makrani
0.16163229 Chechen
0.16217549 Tabasaran
0.16289223 Lak
0.16376404 Adygei
0.16382294 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.16388471 Ossetian
0.16429289 Avar
0.16442279 Maori
0.16445868 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.16505643 Roma_Barcelona
0.16542895 Yukagir_Forest
0.16588979 Saami
0.16609517 Mari
0.16643145 Darginian
0.16653684 Iranian_Lor
0.16776365 Kaitag
0.16778306 Ezid
0.16789512 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.16928709 Gujar_India
0.17017143 Kubachinian
0.17204314 Brahmin_Gujarat
0.17261977 Kurdish
0.17640301 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.18315134 Brahmin_West_Bengal
0.18375548 Abkhasian
0.18548864 Tlingit
0.18618715 Kazakh
0.18773083 Mordovian
0.18869771 Syrian
0.18955880 Kshatriya
0.19075190 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.19177612 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.19234805 Georgian_Jew
0.19331112 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.19355794 Tubalar
0.19382942 Russian_Pinega
0.19403927 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
0.19457971 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.19507748 Assyrian
0.19630939 Gagauz
0.19650910 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.19680219 Iranian_Jew
0.19680841 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
0.19749787 Iyer
0.19843293 Lebanese_Muslim
0.19851762 Russian_Kostroma
0.19898464 Vepsian
0.19981815 Armenian
0.20070780 Bulgarian
0.20137292 Moldavian
0.20260602 Georgian_Laz
0.20276436 Armenian_Hemsheni

Were you expecting a minority to change genetic composition of whole Anatolia. This doesn't change what i said in any manner. If you look at where Armenians lived in Ottoman era correlation is clear. When you mix 10 people to thousand average won't affected that much. So your reply is pretty much irrelevant in this context. Actually Trabzon example confirms my quote and it is not just Trabzon. But Trabzon is simple close to caucasia
Armenians weren't event exists in western Anatolia at all. In Ottoman era they spread little bit to west.

About Turkmens, i think it was a research published by Armenians, it may be wrong or i may not remember correctly or simply we were talking about different Turkmens. I was trying to refer Turkmenistan but anyway.
And why are you saying if it is a joke. In your numbers istanbul is around 0.15 and Armenians are 0.2 depending on data set what i said is obviously possible.

Leper
01-29-2020, 12:23 AM
Were you expecting a minority to change genetic composition of whole Anatolia. This doesn't change what i said in any manner. If you look at where Armenians lived in Ottoman era correlation is clear. When you mix 10 people to thousand average won't affected that much. So your reply is pretty much irrelevant in this context. Actually Trabzon example confirms my quote and it is not just Trabzon. But Trabzon is simple close to caucasia
Armenians weren't event exists in western Anatolia at all. In Ottoman era they spread little bit to west.

About Turkmens, i think it was a research published by Armenians, it may be wrong or i may not remember correctly or simply we were talking about different Turkmens. I was trying to refer Turkmenistan but anyway.
And why the fuck are you saying if it is a joke. In your numbers istanbul is around 0.15 and Armenians are 0.2 depending on data set what i said is obviously possible.

Alkaevli just debunked your jokery (eventhough all he did is repating a well known fact).

It's a GENETICS forum. Either base your ludicrous claims with genetic data & comparisons or get lost.

alienalp
01-29-2020, 01:05 AM
Alkaevli just debunked your jokery (eventhough all he did is repating a well known fact).

It's a GENETICS forum. Either base your ludicrous claims with genetic data & comparisons or get lost.

I don't understand are you reading but anyway here:
Eurogenes k12b:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQa2o4SFRWel9pdnM/edit
I am saying what i said is may be wrong but as you can see definitely not "ludicrous".
I tried to find MDLP K23b but couldn't.

Alkaevli
01-29-2020, 01:31 AM
Were you expecting a minority to change genetic composition of whole Anatolia. This doesn't change what i said in any manner. If you look at where Armenians lived in Ottoman era correlation is clear. When you mix 10 people to thousand average won't affected that much.
Get yourself updated. We know from the medieval Turkic (Karluk, Karakhanid, Kimak, Kipchak) genomes (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0094-2) that present-day Anatolian Turks have significant (but not predominant) ancestry from Central Asia. So yes, the Turkic migrations did change the genetic structure of the peninsula.
https://abload.de/img/pca107jhg.png
https://abload.de/img/pca2myktc.png


Actually Trabzon example confirms my quote and it is not just Trabzon. But Trabzon is simple close to caucasia.
The difference between Turkish_Trabzon and other Turkish samples is that Turkish_Trabzon individuals don't harbor Central Asian ancestry, which is why their average is nearly identical to Greek_Trabzon. Other regions harbor varying levels of Central Asian ancestry and are shifted towards the Medieval Turks on the PCA.

For example, if we use the Karluk samples (900 AD) from Kazakhstan as a Central Asian proxy, this is what we get:

Central Asian (Karluk-like) ancestry ranges between 20% and 30% in central and western parts of the peninsula while Turkish_Trabzon shows almost no sign of Central Asian ancestry.
https://abload.de/img/3210gjm8.png



About Turkmens, i think it was a research published by Armenians, it may be wrong or i may not remember correctly or simply we were talking about different Turkmens. I was trying to refer Turkmenistan but anyway.
The sample "Turkmen" consists of modern Turkmen individuals from Turkmenistan (Yunusbayev et al.).


And why the fuck are you saying if it is a joke. In your numbers istanbul is around 0.15 and Armenians are 0.2 depending on data set what i said is obviously possible.
Mind your tongue. For your information, the difference between 0.15 and 0.2 on Global25 is not small. Armenians are definitely not closer to Turkmens (Turkmenistan) genetically.

Moderator
01-29-2020, 02:13 AM
All members are reminded to keep your language civil.

Ilgar
01-29-2020, 02:58 AM
Could be, but I think there's too much here that suggests a link between the downstreams of Y30278 and Armenians for it to just be a result of sampling bias. If it turns out that a new branch under Y30278 is discovered, that lacks Armenians but includes other West Asians, then I guess connecting Y30278 to the Armenians would be a lot trickier.

For now we have 2 Azerbaijanis under Y30278 (out of ~300) (they do not have armenian ancestry). So I guess this a subclade which was prevalent in anatolia and caucasia back in past before armenians.

AlexanderK
01-29-2020, 08:16 AM
Well they can be serious in believing it, doesn't mean that they are credible. Practically every credible linguist has come to the conclusion that the Sumerian language was a language isolate, a language that formed its own branch separate from every other language group. It's also pretty clear that the Sumerians were locals in the region and spoke a native language.

Turkic on the other hand is a large language family that seems to have originated between the areas of modern day Kazakhstan and Mongolia (possibly around the Altai mountain range). It's also pretty clear that the origin of Proto-Turkic post-dates the Bronze Age and is younger than Sumerian. The Turkic languages are far closer to the Mongolic languages than they are to West Eurasian language groups (Indo-European and Semitic for example), their similarities even led certain linguists to group them together (alongside Tungusic) in the hypothetical Altaic language family.

If you mean Madatov - he is Armenian, while living in Baku (I know him in person and visit him at his 40th anniversary 2 years ago)

It's hard to read and write from smartphone just now. But I am the person who did 10 or so BigY tasts in PH128 and put them to YFull (including myself and my 3rd cousin). This is my personal research. Most are Armenians, while I test 3 Serbians too. This is costly, so I can not test all PH128 available at Ftdna. But every year I test 2-3 more new persons.

alienalp
01-29-2020, 12:02 PM
If you mean Madatov - he is Armenian, while living in Baku (I know him in person and visit him at his 40th anniversary 2 years ago)

It's hard to read and write from smartphone just now. But I am the person who did 10 or so BigY tasts in PH128 and put them to YFull (including myself and my 3rd cousin). This is my personal research. Most are Armenians, while I test 3 Serbians too. This is costly, so I can not test all PH128 available at Ftdna. But every year I test 2-3 more new persons.

I saw you that at other forum and saw that you tested the guy who is in same clade with me. How do you see people with PH128 ? FTDNA is so expensive i did full genome sequence for 170 euro with Dante Lab at black friday discount.
I wonder if there are Turks from PH128 at FTDNA?

yfull says i have 26 best quality novel SNPs. So it seems like i will have my own clade.

Ilgar
01-29-2020, 01:00 PM
For now we have 2 Azerbaijanis under Y30278 (out of ~300) (they do not have armenian ancestry). So I guess this a subclade which was prevalent in anatolia and caucasia back in past before armenians.

That was a mistake. We dont have 2 Azerrbaijanis under this subclade that was a confusion. Only Madatov and like it was said he has armenian ancestry

alienalp
01-29-2020, 01:42 PM
That was a mistake. We dont have 2 Azerrbaijanis under this subclade that was a confusion. Only Madatov and like it was said he has armenian ancestry

I think he already knows everybody in tree except me. He is the one who tested all those guys :D

reignman
01-30-2020, 10:29 AM
Haplogroup J-Y30278, especially cluster with TMRCA 2200 ybp is possible to recognize by STR markers.
The highest diversity of this cluster and the majority of results come from Armenians. It is surely that in last 2000-3000 expanded with Armenians.
Except Armenians there are several results found in Serbia, two are on Yfull tree, paternal origin of both samples is from Southeastern Serbia, from area between City of Nis and Bulgarian border. Almost all of results from Southeastern Serbia are probably descendants of two brothers that lived in the second part of 16th century. They moved from Nishava Valley to live in a mountain and higly inaccessible village at the end of the 16th century after Turks took some of their children for janissaries. If some of their taken children for janissaries survived and had descendants, then results from Turkey with common ancestors in last 400 years should appear as we get more and more tested people. Previous place or area of living (before 16th century) of those two brothers is unknown, they had Christian names, and according to results might be descendants of Armenian migrants in the region. There were historically recorded several waves of Armenian settlement.
In Turkey this cluster is observed in Pille and Halast study, when SNP PH128 got name. Place were sample is taken is still unknown.
There are also one Greek with paternal line from Trabzon who belong to this branch, one Ukrainian from East Ukraine and a Russian from Krasnodar.

There are some Armenian results who are surely positive on J-PF7261 and negative on J-Y30278, at least two different subclasters. Their position on the tree is unknown because no one did WGS or Big Y.
Also, on J haplogroup project at FTDNA you can find some early diverged branches of J-PF7257 (currently equivalent to PH128) in Europe (Italy, Ireland). Also, a sample from scientific study from Azerbaijan is confirmed J-PH128.
I think that origin of J-PF7261 and its subclades is in Caucasus region This haplogroup is rare in general, but it shows some diversity in this region.

alienalp
01-30-2020, 01:22 PM
Haplogroup J-Y30278, especially cluster with TMRCA 2200 ybp is possible to recognize by STR markers.

I don't understand this. I am in a terminal clade (https://yfull.com/tree/J-F17410*/) formed 2200 ybp, yet yfull says i have 26 six novel SNPs. Am i getting something wrong or as far as i understand yfull tree is completely based on SNPs.
Genetic testing is seriously rare in my country. (Most of the tests done by Turks who live in foreign countries but those are autosomal) Since you say according to researches PH128 found in Turkey and Azerbaijan and also it is found in me :), It may be found lot in Turks. Though PH128 formed about 11k years ago. And all sub branches of J-Y30278 are formed about 2k years ago. And there are 8k years without any branching. Is it normal?

alienalp
02-06-2020, 05:41 PM
There is Hui Chinise (https://www.wegene.com/question/8097?from=singlemessage) who has J1a3b~ (it should be isogg tree so he is J-Y30278 in yfull tree) and he says his paternal ancestors have Mongolian characteristics.
There is also this page (http://www.ranhaer.com/archiver/?tid-35567.html&page=7) list frequency of haplogroups beloging to a surname. And there are two people with J1a3b~ (FGC35403 = J-Y30278)
So J-Y30278 most probably has central Asian origin and arrived to Anatolia via Caucasus. There is another one from Turkey in FTDNA tree from PH128 (so he is also 90% J-Y30278)

levantino II
02-06-2020, 07:07 PM
There is Hui Chinise (https://www.wegene.com/question/8097?from=singlemessage) who has J1a3b~ (it should be isogg tree so he is J-Y30278 in yfull tree) and he says his paternal ancestors have Mongolian characteristics.
There is also this page (http://www.ranhaer.com/archiver/?tid-35567.html&page=7) list frequency of haplogroups beloging to a surname. And there are two people with J1a3b~ (FGC35403 = J-Y30278)
So J-Y30278 most probably has central Asian origin and arrived to Anatolia via Caucasus. There is another one from Turkey in FTDNA tree from PH128 (so he is also 90% J-Y30278)

This Hui tribesman is not the only one PF7257 in North East China. There si one more in "Population genetics for 17 Y-STR loci in Hui ethnic minority from Liaoning Province, Northeast China". He is line 83 (HT078) in table S1

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314227645_Population_genetics_for_17_Y-STR_loci_in_Hui_ethnic_minority_from_Liaoning_Prov ince_Northeast_China

36270

Values of the participant are:

393-390-19-10-385ab-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-GATA H4-456-438-635
12-23-14-10-14/16-11-13-11-30-19.2-14-20-11-14-11-20

About place of origin of Y30278 I think it's more probably Eastern Anatolia than Central Asia

El Greco
03-15-2020, 12:07 PM
A new branch of https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y94416/ has come out on YFULL, age estimate is TMRCA 1050 ybp.

So the common ancestor lived around the 10th century. I think there is no doubt that this was in the Caucasus region, since the ancestors of the tested Armenian noble origin (Melik) lived here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melik

About the last migration from that region occurred in the mid-11th century when Armenia was annexed by Byzantium. The Byzantines relocate much of the population to the west, primarily noble families and people related to them. A military aristocracy in Anatolia and a civilian aristocracy in the Balkans. This weakens the eastern border of Byzantium and only then does the Seljuk Turks consolidate in this region.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manzikert

Kelmendasi
03-15-2020, 12:34 PM
There is Hui Chinise (https://www.wegene.com/question/8097?from=singlemessage) who has J1a3b~ (it should be isogg tree so he is J-Y30278 in yfull tree) and he says his paternal ancestors have Mongolian characteristics.
There is also this page (http://www.ranhaer.com/archiver/?tid-35567.html&page=7) list frequency of haplogroups beloging to a surname. And there are two people with J1a3b~ (FGC35403 = J-Y30278)
So J-Y30278 most probably has central Asian origin and arrived to Anatolia via Caucasus. There is another one from Turkey in FTDNA tree from PH128 (so he is also 90% J-Y30278)
Just because Y30278 was found among the Hui, it doesn't mean that the haplogroup is of Central Asian origins. The Hui are an ethnic group from China who are believed to trace the majority of their ancestry back to merchants and traders that reached China via the Silk Road. Many for example are believed to descend from Persian or Iranian merchants. Some do claim origin from Muslim central Asian groups, however I still think it's more likely that they got this cluster from a more west Asian source rather than a local one.
As for the "Mongolian characteristics", he just mentioned that they were "big and strong" which doesn't say much.

Current data doesn't support a central Asian origin, but rather an origin in eastern Anatolia or Transcaucasia.

alienalp
03-16-2020, 10:20 PM
Wow, you shouldnt interpret TMRCA like that. Calculated from two sample. It doesnt mean much. You cant assume most recent common ancestor lived in the mid-11th century. It could be hundreds year less or more. And it could be even thousand year before your assumption. Considering we only have two common snp actually mid-11th century is very unlikely.There are more than 20 novel SNP we have and parent has TMRCA of 2100.
So actually this branch is very close to its parent branch. TMRCA is calculated very wrongly because of lack of samples. It should go back way more than that.