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Tolan
01-26-2014, 04:15 PM
As there is no study on L21 in France, I decided to create a map from the participants in the different DNA projects on FTDNA. (U106, U152, L21 and DF27)
I counted the number of French, for each region (total 181), established percentages based on the percentage of R1b known for French regions.
Percentages are relative to the total of haplogroups
Thank you to be lenient on the method used! (Faute de grèves, on mange des merles! ;) )


If my map is correct, L21 is curiusly present in Champagne and Alsace.
I think L21 comes from east, maybe this is the path taken for the first L21?

As a reminder, the map L21 by Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

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Diverclic
01-26-2014, 05:14 PM
Your map tend to indicate / confirm that L21 was not in the area of the 2 other groups. The empty area in the east is the place of U152 maximum. The north could be U106 but that is NOT what the Brabant study in Belgium suggested. U106 in the Brabant study was much more north. Unfortunately L21 was not tested in the Brabant study.
I am wondering what is the part of the computer in the gradient shown on your map. OK L21 strong in Britany. Since it's known that people from Cornwall invaded Britany at the time of King Arthur we can, wonder whether this maximum is really ancient.
My take would be that L21 was the first wave of P312 in France and it covered the whole country. Later, U152 started a conquest from the east. Also, it seems that some L21 in Normandy are coming from the vikings.
With the same data, can you tell what's the major group in the north of France according to these data ?

Tolan
01-26-2014, 05:54 PM
My take would be that L21 was the first wave of P312 in France and it covered the whole country. Later, U152 started a conquest from the east.

Yes, I think that


Also, it seems that some L21 in Normandy are coming from the vikings.

But i don't think that!

Effectively, I do maps for other haplogroups.
For the north, I find a strong presence DF27! Is this a bug or it's known?

1288
1289
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Anglecynn
01-26-2014, 07:36 PM
Interesting maps. Thanks for sharing.

Celtarion
01-27-2014, 12:04 AM
According to Semargl.me, France (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/country/83/) is currently showing 782 samples. Would there be any way to refine the map based on this website?

alan
01-27-2014, 02:55 AM
was there not a recent study that showed more L21 than expected around NE France or Belgium?

Diverclic
01-27-2014, 07:21 PM
About DF27 in the north of France I don't think it's known (I have long been one of the administrator for the project SRY2627, now also gathering DF27 testing from FTDNA). I am not very surprised but it's new. My take for DF27 is that it was the first spread of bronze age people along the atlantic coast (and main rivers). Some early settlements might have disappeared after other subgroups (like L21...) populated "France" (not yet called France).

To answer Alan , I think L21 and DF27 have been poorly tested ; they came after the Busby et al. study and too many people took it as the ultimate study.

Heber
01-27-2014, 11:49 PM
Tolan, These are great maps. It has certainly improved my understanding of DNA in France. Is there enough data to map the SNPs below L21. I will try to do some data analysis in the next few days.
The DF27 map is interesting as it shows a hotspot emanating out of Iberia and SW France. The hot spot in the North is unusual.

R.Rocca
01-28-2014, 12:18 AM
As there is no study on L21 in France, I decided to create a map from the participants in the different DNA projects on FTDNA. (U106, U152, L21 and DF27)
I counted the number of French, for each region (total 181), established percentages based on the percentage of R1b known for French regions.
Percentages are relative to the total of haplogroups
Thank you to be lenient on the method used! (Faute de grèves, on mange des merles! ;) )


If my map is correct, L21 is curiusly present in Champagne and Alsace.
I think L21 comes from east, maybe this is the path taken for the first L21?

As a reminder, the map L21 by Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

1285

Busby indeed provided L21 frequencies for some regions of France. They show as R-S145 and R-M222 in their tables.

Tolan
01-28-2014, 02:36 PM
With the same method, I made a map for Europe (excluding the British Isles).
Thank you to consider this as a rough draft!
I hope that more scientific studies arrive soon!
1312

Anglecynn
01-28-2014, 03:11 PM
With the same method, I made a map for Europe (excluding the British Isles).
Thank you to consider this as a rough draft!
I hope that more scientific studies arrive soon!
1312

I suppose you could use Busby for the British Isles (although a couple of the groups have a low number of samples).

Thanks for the map, very interesting.

Heber
01-29-2014, 12:23 AM
As there is no study on L21 in France, I decided to create a map from the participants in the different DNA projects on FTDNA. (U106, U152, L21 and DF27)
I counted the number of French, for each region (total 181), established percentages based on the percentage of R1b known for French regions.
Percentages are relative to the total of haplogroups
Thank you to be lenient on the method used! (Faute de grèves, on mange des merles! ;) )


If my map is correct, L21 is curiusly present in Champagne and Alsace.
I think L21 comes from east, maybe this is the path taken for the first L21?

As a reminder, the map L21 by Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

1285

Here are the major SNPs under L21 in France.

1315

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/

faute de foie gras on manges du pâté.:).

MJost
01-29-2014, 12:45 AM
Hey Gerard,

You could be changing your French L21 charts with fB4810 Brunet MDKA born in 1616, France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Dieppe, he just went positive for the new DF13>FGC5496 subclade. :)

MJost

Anglecynn
01-29-2014, 01:02 AM
With the same method, I made a map for Europe (excluding the British Isles).
Thank you to consider this as a rough draft!
I hope that more scientific studies arrive soon!
1312

It's interesting that the low zone of L21 in north-east France and Belgium quite closely matches ancient Belgica, and i think there is more U152 in those areas too?

rms2
01-29-2014, 01:05 AM
According to Semargl.me, France (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/country/83/) is currently showing 782 samples. Would there be any way to refine the map based on this website?

Interesting. They show 55 L21+, the highest number for an identified R1b hapologroup in France. Where are they getting their data?

rms2
01-29-2014, 01:21 AM
Based on its representation in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database, France has the highest proportion of L21xDF13.

Thus the L21 phylogenetic trail seems to lead to France, or at least to the Continent.

Diverclic
01-29-2014, 01:55 AM
Here are the data used by Busby et al. The first number is the number of L21 while the second number is the total number of samples. Unfortunately the positioning isn't very precise. Also, I don't understand how the map with a main spot in Britany was derived from these data. One clear difference is a kind of spot in Marseille .
Not shown here : L21 was of course strong in all British isles.

Alpes De Haute Provence 4 - 31
East France 18 - 80
France East 4 - 25
North France 12 - 68
North Central France 13 - 91
North West France 7 - 115
Bouches Du Rhone (At Mouth) 35 - 207
France South 4 - 38
South Central France 15 - 89
South East France 5 - 45
South West France 9 - 83
Vaucluse (Upstream Rhone) 9 - 61
Var (Coastal, E Of Rhone) 13 - 68
France West 3 - 14

Celtarion
01-29-2014, 03:10 PM
Interesting. They show 55 L21+, the highest number for an identified R1b hapologroup in France. Where are they getting their data?

It seems coming from FTDNA/YSEARCH and it's daily updated (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/last-updates/) as far as I can see.

Tolan
01-29-2014, 04:55 PM
It seems coming from FTDNA/YSEARCH and it's daily updated (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/last-updates/) as far as I can see.

The French results are not at all representative:
Half of them (of french R1b), are coming from Northwest: Bretagne, Pays de Loire, Normandie and Poitou (one fifth of the French territory).

It is for this reason that seems to be L21 the first haplogroup in France, but I think it should be U152!

I changed a littile the L21 map that I put here. I do the same thing for U102, U152, DF27.
It is a bit different than Eupedia maps!
To be continued ... : Biggrin1:

1324132113221323

Mikewww
01-29-2014, 05:45 PM
....
I changed a littile the L21 map that I put here. I do the same thing for U102, U152, DF27.
It is a bit different than Eupedia maps!
To be continued ... : Biggrin1:


Thank you. Don't forget that the Sardinian study showed some L21 there. Maybe just a blip though. However, Bologna Italy showed some higher number, around 10% if I remember.

rms2
01-29-2014, 05:50 PM
The U106 frequencies seem a little high.

rms2
01-29-2014, 05:53 PM
Thank you. Don't forget that the Sardinian study showed some L21 there. Maybe just a blip though. However, Bologna Italy showed some higher number, around 10% if I remember.

There was also this study (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0081704#pone.0 081704.s012) that found 24% L21 (n=51) in Val Gardena in the South Tyrol in northern Italy.

Anglecynn
01-29-2014, 08:40 PM
The French results are not at all representative:
Half of them (of french R1b), are coming from Northwest: Bretagne, Pays de Loire, Normandie and Poitou (one fifth of the French territory).

It is for this reason that seems to be L21 the first haplogroup in France, but I think it should be U152!

I changed a littile the L21 map that I put here. I do the same thing for U102, U152, DF27.
It is a bit different than Eupedia maps!
To be continued ... : Biggrin1:

1324132113221323

Very nice maps, thanks. It's interesting how U106 mirrors R1a in Germany, almost like R1a expanded at the expense of U106 there. And accordingly in areas where there is high U106, R1a is quite low (save perhaps southern Germany?)

R.Rocca
01-29-2014, 08:56 PM
The U106 frequencies seem a little high.

As do U152 frequencies. We have to remember that U106 and U152 have been available for commercial testing for a couple of years longer than L21 and quite a few years longer than DF27.

Mikewww
01-29-2014, 09:12 PM
Very nice maps, thanks. It's interesting how U106 mirrors R1a in Germany, almost like R1a expanded at the expense of U106 there. And accordingly in areas where there is high U106, R1a is quite low (save perhaps southern Germany?)

I agree with RMS2 on U106 in most of France. In what've seen in the past, it drops like a rock to the west and south of Caen so Normandy would have lower numbers.

Interestingly, though, I1 carries on nicely across the English Channel coast out to Bretagne.

Heber
01-29-2014, 09:56 PM
Here is a more complete list of SNPs below L21 in France

1325

I would expect U152 and especially L2 to be the dominant R1b SNP in Gaul, associated with La Tene and Halstatt, with L21 having more of an Atlantic profile.

R.Rocca
01-29-2014, 10:25 PM
Here is a more complete list of SNPs below L21 in France

1325

I would expect U152 and especially L2 to be the dominant R1b SNP in Gaul, associated with La Tene and Halstatt, with L21 having more of an Atlantic profile.

Aside from L21 in the North-West and U152 in the North-East and Center-East, R1b-DF27 is likely the most frequent SNP in the rest of France, especially in the SW. If we extrapolate the P312(xU152,L21) in Busby as being mostly DF27+, that becomes very clear.

Mikewww
01-29-2014, 11:05 PM
Aside from L21 in the North-West and U152 in the North-East and Center-East, R1b-DF27 is likely the most frequent SNP in the rest of France, especially in the SW. If we extrapolate the P312(xU152,L21) in Busby as being mostly DF27+, that becomes very clear.

I think that is probably true, but I sure would like to have a lot more study data across central France. Well, nothing new about that.

Webb
01-30-2014, 02:49 AM
In regards to the DF27 map of France and Europe. It's interesting that there are two separate clusters on the map, one in the north of France and the obvious DF27 cluster in the Pyrenees. There are a number of possible scenarios. One would be that one cluster settled the other cluster. Another scenario that I really like, while not necessarily correct, is a division scenario. Currently there are two North/South Cluster clusters forming. The British/Netherlands cluster which is missing a number of the downstream snps that the southern or Pyrenean cluster has. This could be evidence of a division scenario wherein DF27 and more specifically the North/South Cluster had a steady rate of population from Northern France down through the Pyrenees. Then pressure from L21 on the Atlantic making inroads into the center of France and pressure from U152 making inroads into the center of France essentially split DF27 in half, separating the whole into two concentrated populations.

razyn
01-30-2014, 03:47 AM
Leaving out the Isles, and basing the rest on FTDNA project members (of overwhelmingly Isles ancestry, I believe), makes a funny old picture of European distribution of anything. The DF27 part bothers me; the rest is also funny looking, but somebody else's cross of pain to bear. DF27 is also strongly represented in a couple of non-FTDNA projects -- Genomes of the Netherlands, and the Flanders one (Larmuseau et al, May 2013) from less than a year ago. These are lightly discussed or sampled in our circles, so far -- and not considered on these new maps.

I still suspect that a more complete picture of DF27 will show a predominantly east to west movement, beginning not much farther on its westward route than Romania and ultimately pooling, among other unmapped areas, in the places that show hot spots on these maps of its contemporary breeding/survival success. Individual, late clades of it such as M153 certainly have a western distribution and strength. They were the ones identified earlier (before Z196, DF27 itself, or numerous other subclades of it that are old but not nearly so western).

Heber
01-30-2014, 11:54 AM
Aside from L21 in the North-West and U152 in the North-East and Center-East, R1b-DF27 is likely the most frequent SNP in the rest of France, especially in the SW. If we extrapolate the P312(xU152,L21) in Busby as being mostly DF27+, that becomes very clear.

Looking at the Busby data, which is possibly the best source along with Myres.
The highest frequency with a maximum score of 1.0 are:

M269: West of Ireland, Basque
L51: West of Ireland
L11* West of Ireland
P312* West of Ireland
L21* West of Ireland
M222 West of Ireland (Myres, Genographic)

Highest Frequency < 1.0
U152 Switzerland/Alps
DF27 Iberia, SW France

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534767027102/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-m269/

The key result will be L11. The latest high coverage studies are Genographic Mayo and Asturias projects. Summary results were published for Mayo with R1b@92% and very high L21 and M222.
Asturias has yet to be published. I would expect high levels of DF27 and P312 and possibly significant traces of L11.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534767027077/

rms2
01-30-2014, 07:08 PM
And the matrioshki (nesting dolls) effect of Busby's M269 stats for Ireland relates to France how?

Heber
02-01-2014, 12:39 PM
Here is the Busby M269 SNP Frequency Analysis for France
1335
Hotspots are
M269: Basque
L23: Alpes
L11: Alpes
P312: NW France
L21: NW France
U106: Basque
U152: Alps
DF27? S France

As France is a crossroads between Iberia, Alpes and Isles it is good to get a picture of M269 and its SNPs.
U106 is surprising.

Anglecynn
02-01-2014, 01:55 PM
Here is the Busby M269 SNP Frequency Analysis for France
1335
Hotspots are
M269: Basque
L23: Alpes
L11: Alpes
P312: NW France
L21: NW France
U106: Basque
U152: Alps
DF27? S France

As France is a crossroads between Iberia, Alpes and Isles it is good to get a picture of M269 and its SNPs.
U106 is surprising.

Only 6 samples, but still 2 out of 6 being U106 is pretty interesting.

rms2
02-01-2014, 02:19 PM
Only 6 samples, but still 2 out of 6 being U106 is pretty interesting.

Yes, far too small a sample to mean much of anything except that it was always a mistake to consider the Basques as some sort of prehistoric fossil.

R.Rocca
02-01-2014, 02:23 PM
Only 6 samples, but still 2 out of 6 being U106 is pretty interesting.

It's a very deceiving result based on low sampling. Out of 539 Basques, only four were found to be U106 (0.7%) in a 2012 study. So roughly a little less than one percent.

Anglecynn
02-01-2014, 02:50 PM
It's a very deceiving result based on low sampling. Out of 539 Basques, only four were found to be U106 (0.7%) in a 2012 study. So roughly a little less than one percent.

That sounds much more reliable.

rms2
02-01-2014, 03:16 PM
A few days ago I took a look at the stats for y-dna testing in the various countries in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database in which L21xDF13 has been found. Of course, one must be aware that the countries listed as places of ancestral origin are customer reported, and not all of those with y-dna STR tests of 12 markers or more have been SNP tested. Anyway, I created a nice table in Word 2007, but I cannot figure out how to paste it here. All I get is the content of the table, not the table itself, and it looks sloppy and is hard to read that way.

Anyway, L21xDF13 is where France is interesting. Relative to its small proportion of y-dna tests in Ancestral Origins, France has the greatest proportion of L21xDF13 results. That, it seems to me, indicates that the L21 phylogenetic trail leads to the Continent and especially to France.

Ireland, which obviously has the highest frequencies of L21 in the world, is solidly DF13+. I do not know of a single instance of an actual man with a native Irish surname who is L21xDF13, and that despite the thousands of L21+ results from Ireland. There are some McFarlane/McFarlands from Northern Ireland who are DF13-, but that is a Scots surname, and there is a Barnes in the Irish Project who is DF13-, but Barnes is an English surname.

MitchellSince1893
02-01-2014, 03:33 PM
U106 in Basque country might be of Visigothic or Frankish origin.

rms2
02-01-2014, 03:42 PM
U106 in Basque country might be of Visigothic or Frankish origin.

Of course, the "Saracens" in The Song of Roland were actually Basques, and it was the Basques who whipped up on the Frankish rearguard at Roncesvalles and killed Roland and his men. Maybe they kept a handful of Franks alive as slaves?

Anglecynn
02-01-2014, 04:05 PM
A few days ago I took a look at the stats for y-dna testing in the various countries in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database in which L21xDF13 has been found. Of course, one must be aware that the countries listed as places of ancestral origin are customer reported, and not all of those with y-dna STR tests of 12 markers or more have been SNP tested. Anyway, I created a nice table in Word 2007, but I cannot figure out how to paste it here. All I get is the content of the table, not the table itself, and it looks sloppy and is hard to read that way.

Anyway, L21xDF13 is where France is interesting. Relative to its small proportion of y-dna tests in Ancestral Origins, France has the greatest proportion of L21xDF13 results. That, it seems to me, indicates that the L21 phylogenetic trail leads to the Continent and especially to France.

Ireland, which obviously has the highest frequencies of L21 in the world, is solidly DF13+. I do not know of a single instance of an actual man with a native Irish surname who is L21xDF13, and that despite the thousands of L21+ results from Ireland. There are some McFarlane/McFarlands from Northern Ireland who are DF13-, but that is a Scots surname, and there is a Barnes in the Irish Project who is DF13-, but Barnes is an English surname.

What is the estimated age of DF13?

Tolan
02-01-2014, 04:49 PM
I complete my maps with the British Isles.

The year of discovery of SNPs (U106, L21, U152, DF27) appear to affect the percentages.
So, it is preferable to consider the difference on a single map rather than trying to compare percentages between maps.

I would also emphasize that the percentages were calculated based on the percentage of R1b for each European regions according to this page Eupedia: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
If it's numbers are inaccurate or not very accurate, it can move the percentage of a few points!
In addition, R1b (without U106, L21, DF27 and U152), are not taken into account (I have not found a way to have any estimate)


I also added a map adding L21 and DF27 . I think they are haplogroups that originally covered the entire western Europe . Invasions of other groups, including U152 , would that they were confined to the extreme west of the continent.
The Loire seems to be the boundary between L21 and DF27 : North: majority L21, south majority DF27 .
The proportion in Spain L21/DF27 is 30/70 . This is a significant figure for L21 . DF27 and L21 are maybe the same people?

I also think that L21 in Britanay may be explained without involving L21 Britain !
The rate in Britany of L21 seems to be one of the highest in Europe! Only the Breton invasion can not explain it!

1336133713381339

L21+DF27:1340

MitchellSince1893
02-01-2014, 05:24 PM
Don't understand why U106 would be higher in western England vice eastern England (where Danes, Saxons, Angles and Jutes mostly settled), especially in Cornwall and to a lesser extent Devon, and the Forest of Dean area.

Hence on the L21 map, one would expect higher percentages in Cornwall than in SE England.

Also for U152, Kent/SE England usually has some of the highest percentages e.g. Busby. NE Scotland was also a U152 hotspot in Busby.

1341

Tolan
02-01-2014, 05:54 PM
Don't understand why U106 would be higher in western England vice eastern England. Also for U152, Kent usually has some of the highest percentages e.g. Busby.

I know! I was very surprised by counting the U106 in Cornwall!
SW England:
U106: 55
L21: 34
DF27: 20
U152: 14

Heber
02-01-2014, 07:22 PM
I complete my maps with the British Isles.

The year of discovery of SNPs (U106, L21, U152, DF27) appear to affect the percentages.
So, it is preferable to consider the difference on a single map rather than trying to compare percentages between maps.

I would also emphasize that the percentages were calculated based on the percentage of R1b for each European regions according to this page Eupedia: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
If it's numbers are inaccurate or not very accurate, it can move the percentage of a few points!
In addition, R1b (without U106, L21, DF27 and U152), are not taken into account (I have not found a way to have any estimate)


I also added a map adding L21 and DF27 . I think they are haplogroups that originally covered the entire western Europe . Invasions of other groups, including U152 , would that they were confined to the extreme west of the continent.
The Loire seems to be the boundary between L21 and DF27 : North: majority L21, south majority DF27 .
The proportion in Spain L21/DF27 is 30/70 . This is a significant figure for L21 . DF27 and L21 are maybe the same people?

I also think that L21 in Britanay may be explained without involving L21 Britain !
The rate in Britany of L21 seems to be one of the highest in Europe! Only the Breton invasion can not explain it!

1336133713381339

L21+DF27:1340

Very interesting maps. It is the first time I have seen a combined L21 + DF27 map and it reminds me of the traditional Celtic lands map or the Modern EU construct Arch Atlantique.

1342

1343

I agree they appear to be the same people, representive of the Bronze Age Atlantic Celts, with U152 more representative of the traditional Iron Age Le Tene, Halstatt! Gaulish Celts.

razyn
02-01-2014, 08:41 PM
I agree that these maps are becoming more interesting as you continue to refine them. And that the roots of the big haplogroups pictured here lie mostly in the Bronze Age -- before which, we have little evidence that L11 was in Europe.

I'm not as sure there's much reason to refer to people moving from western Asia to Europe four or five thousand years ago as "Celts;" but somebody did call large subsets of these folks that -- about 50 generations later, that we know of. By then, some of them were even going places "from the west," so to speak.

I probably should go look at my copies of recent works by Mallory and Manco again, before I begin to seem intemperate.

rms2
02-01-2014, 11:15 PM
Don't understand why U106 would be higher in western England vice eastern England (where Danes, Saxons, Angles and Jutes mostly settled), especially in Cornwall and to a lesser extent Devon, and the Forest of Dean area.

Hence on the L21 map, one would expect higher percentages in Cornwall than in SE England.

Also for U152, Kent/SE England usually has some of the highest percentages e.g. Busby. NE Scotland was also a U152 hotspot in Busby.

1341

I still don't understand where the percentages for the various haplogroups in Tolan's maps are coming from. They don't make sense to me.

Busby has its limitations, but at least it is a scientific population study.

I think the pie chart for NE Scotland is off. Busby shows U152 in NE Scotland at just 4.5%. U106 there is 19.4%: likely the consequence of the settlement of Northumbrians there by King David I in the 12th century.

U152's highest Scottish frequency in Busby is just 4.8% (West Scotland).

rms2
02-01-2014, 11:26 PM
What is the estimated age of DF13?

Last I heard, it isn't much younger than L21 itself: around 3k-4k years old.

It certainly looks like the L21 that went to Ireland was already all DF13+.

MitchellSince1893
02-02-2014, 02:09 AM
I still don't understand where the percentages for the various haplogroups in Tolan's maps are coming from. They don't make sense to me.

Busby has its limitations, but at least it is a scientific population study.

I think the pie chart for NE Scotland is off. Busby shows U152 in NE Scotland at just 4.5%. U106 there is 19.4%: likely the consequence of the settlement of Northumbrians there by King David I in the 12th century.

U152's highest Scottish frequency in Busby is just 4.8% (West Scotland).

My bad, you're right on the pie charts being off on that map I found online.

To quote you from a molgen.org post it looks like they may have flipped the values of U106 and U152.


Northeast Scotland (N = 67)
L21 = 52.2%
U106 = 19.4%
U152 = 4.5%
P312xL21, U152 = 6.0%

David Mc
02-02-2014, 02:16 AM
It's interesting to note that R-L21 has something of a presence in northern (Schleswig-Holstein) and northwestern Germany. Right around the Saxon homelands, I think... It would be interesting to see how STR's from this area diverge from the Isles and Brittany... Otherwise differentiating native British R-L21 from "German" encroachment might become a bit more challenging. Or am I missing something?

Anglecynn
02-02-2014, 02:19 AM
Don't understand why U106 would be higher in western England vice eastern England (where Danes, Saxons, Angles and Jutes mostly settled), especially in Cornwall and to a lesser extent Devon, and the Forest of Dean area.

Hence on the L21 map, one would expect higher percentages in Cornwall than in SE England.

Also for U152, Kent/SE England usually has some of the highest percentages e.g. Busby. NE Scotland was also a U152 hotspot in Busby.

1341

Yeah it's quite surprising, maybe because it represented a sort of terminus for U106 there? I mean it pools up when it reaches the sea in the low countries too, either that or it's local variation from the national average?

Anglecynn
02-02-2014, 02:22 AM
It's interesting to note that R-L21 has something of a presence in northern (Schleswig-Holstein) and northwestern Germany. Right around the Saxon homelands, I think... It would be interesting to see how STR's from this area diverge from the Isles and Brittany... Otherwise differentiating native British R-L21 from "German" encroachment might become a bit more challenging. Or am I missing something?

I had always thought it possible that some of the L21 here did not get here with Celts, but it's quite surprising how high it is there, much more than would be expected.

Many things with these frequencies are surprising, and it'd be good to have it corroborated in the future to see if some of the unusual aspects are actually real.

Tolan
02-02-2014, 07:53 AM
Don't understand why U106 would be higher in western England vice eastern England (where Danes, Saxons, Angles and Jutes mostly settled), especially in Cornwall and to a lesser extent Devon, and the Forest of Dean area.

Hence on the L21 map, one would expect higher percentages in Cornwall than in SE England.

Also for U152, Kent/SE England usually has some of the highest percentages e.g. Busby. NE Scotland was also a U152 hotspot in Busby.

1341

The U106 percentages in England are equal, or even greater than those of the country of origine of the Angles and Saxons in Germany!
We Can see this also on the maps of Eupedia!
The invasion of the Angles and Saxons in England did not therefore have influenced the U106 rate, perhaps even declined a bit!
The English U106, perhaps comes from the Dutch Bell-Beaker?

Anglecynn
02-02-2014, 12:07 PM
The U106 percentages in England are equal, or even greater than those of the country of origine of the Angles and Saxons in Germany!
We Can see this also on the maps of Eupedia!
The invasion of the Angles and Saxons in England did not therefore have influenced the U106 rate, perhaps even declined a bit!
The English U106, perhaps comes from the Dutch Bell-Beaker?

Although why would the transition between England and Wales be so big? Taking into account movements from England to Wales since those event, there's still not that much. A divide between lowland and upland Britain could partially explain it.
Also, with U106 being higher in the low countries than in northern Germany and Denmark, perhaps the spread of U106 is partly due to Germanic culture reaching a Bell Beaker zone and then spreading U106 a second time?
Although looking at the map, it does look like it was once more common in central Germany, and then was reduced from movement from the east.

rms2
02-02-2014, 02:06 PM
The U106 percentages in England are equal, or even greater than those of the country of origine of the Angles and Saxons in Germany!
We Can see this also on the maps of Eupedia!
The invasion of the Angles and Saxons in England did not therefore have influenced the U106 rate, perhaps even declined a bit!
The English U106, perhaps comes from the Dutch Bell-Beaker?

Can you please clearly explain where you are getting the haplogroup percentages you are using for these maps? I don't mean to be critical, but I think your percentages are wrong in many if not most cases and are misleading people here.

No, the percentages of U106 in England, though high, do not exceed those in the old homelands of the Anglo-Saxons.

In Busby, Friesland leads for U106 with a frequency of 42.6%, and the Netherlands in general is next, with 36.6%. Nothing in Britain, including England, approaches those frequencies.

Here are the pertinent stats for England from Busby:

Central England (N = 165)
L21 = 16.4%
U106 = 18.2%
U152 = 9.7%
P312xL21, U152 = 15.2%

East England (N = 172)
L21 = 12.8%
U106 = 25.6%
U152 = 8.1%
P312xL21, U152 = 17.4%

England Northwest (N = 47)
L21 = 40.4%
U106 = 21.3%
U152 = 6.4%
P312xL21, U152 = 10.6%

England Southeast (N = 52)
L21 = 15.4%
U106 = 26.9%
U152 = 15.4%
P312xL21, U152 = 21.2%

England Southwest (N = 48)
L21 = 37.5%
U106 = 25%
U152 = 8.3%
P312xL21, U152 = 6.3%

I for one do not believe that U106 got to Britain as early as the Bronze Age. It is not widespread enough to have arrived that early, and its distribution too closely resembles the spread of the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants, the English. IMHO, U106 was not part of Rhenish Beaker and is closely connected to the development and expansion of Germanic languages. The Germans (in the broadest sense) did not begin arriving in the neighborhood of the Lower Rhine until about 700 BC, and it took them until around 200 BC to dislodge the Celts and push them west across the Rhine. Since U106, I believe, was connected to this movement of Germans, it was not present in the Lower Rhine during the Beaker (Bronze Age) Period.

I realize the results from two sets of remains are not a lot, but the only ancient y-dna we have from Beaker Folk tested U106-, and it came from an area that today is rich in U106: Germany. The two sets of male Beaker remains from Kromsdorf, Germany, were R1bxU106. One of them tested M269+; with the other they could only get as far as M343+. They did not test them for P312 or any of its downstream SNPs. Perhaps because the site was in Germany they expected them to be U106+.

JRW
02-02-2014, 03:45 PM
Thank you for taking the initiative to create these maps. They are very interesting and thought provoking.

However, I (as well as others) do not understand from your description how you constructed the maps. For example, for the map of France, for the numerator, I think you summed the number of FTDNA testers participating in a haplogroup/clade project, by haplogroup/clade, who identified their MDKA as having come from a specific town/province/department/region to arrive at a total for that haplogroup/clade for a particular region. Those haplogroups/clades would be R1b-U106, R1b-L21, R1b-U152, and R1b-DF27. Am I understanding this correctly?

So, for the denominator, is it just the sum of the four haplogroups/clades? Therefore, the percentages we are looking at would be the relative percentage of say, U106, to the total of the four haplogroups/clades. Correct? If not, what is denominator?

I apologize if my questions seem too basic.

Thanks.

Tolan
02-02-2014, 04:46 PM
Thank you for taking the initiative to create these maps. They are very interesting and thought provoking.

However, I (as well as others) do not understand from your description how you constructed the maps. For example, for the map of France, for the numerator, I think you summed the number of FTDNA testers participating in a haplogroup/clade project, by haplogroup/clade, who identified their MDKA as having come from a specific town/province/department/region to arrive at a total for that haplogroup/clade for a particular region. Those haplogroups/clades would be R1b-U106, R1b-L21, R1b-U152, and R1b-DF27. Am I understanding this correctly?

So, for the denominator, is it just the sum of the four haplogroups/clades? Therefore, the percentages we are looking at would be the relative percentage of say, U106, to the total of the four haplogroups/clades. Correct? If not, what is denominator?

I apologize if my questions seem too basic.

Thanks.

My maps are not perfect, that's for sure!
Busby is probably closer to the truth that my maps!
In many parts of Europe, I do not have a lot of results and they are "flimsy."

For my calculations, here is my method: Example for Normandy
U106: 6
L21: 16
U152: 4
DF27: 3

Total: 29

Estimation R1b in Normandie: 76% http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

So: (29*100)/76 = 38
38 is the denominator

U106: 15,7%
L21: 42%
U152: 10,5%
DF27: 7,8%

This method has a flaw: the R1b * are not included in this calculation.
Assuming that 20% of R1b in Normandy are neither U106, L21, DF27, U152 (Which would be much!)
We would have the following results:

U106: 11,5%
L21: 30,7%
U152: 7,7%
DF27: 5,8%

So all percentages on my maps are maybe too high, but it's the same rule for all regions of Europe!

That said, I find that my maps have some logic on the whole!
Except perhaps in some areas, and usually, it is those, that we notice in the first!;)

rms2
02-02-2014, 05:04 PM
I understand your method now, but where are you getting the numbers for the various haplogroups? From FTDNA projects?

Tolan
02-02-2014, 06:54 PM
I understand your method now, but where are you getting the numbers for the various haplogroups? From FTDNA projects?
Yes, on the map

JRW
02-02-2014, 08:18 PM
Thanks, Tolan, very helpful. So, you used the FTDNA project group data for the distribution of R1b among its haplogroups/clades, and the Eupedia data for the allocation of R1b among the Y haplogroups by region. I would think the Eupedia Y chromosome distribution data should be rather good. And, I don't know of a reason why the FTDNA project group data would be biased other than potentially for the amount of time a subject SNP has been tested publicly relative to the others.

rms2
02-03-2014, 09:02 AM
IMHO, better to rely on population studies, like Busby et al, when available. Places of ancestral origin in FTDNA projects are customer reported and not always reliable. Often they are the product of the wish being father to the thought. There are people who report Norman ancestry, for example, who read somewhere that their surname has a Norman origin but who have no other connection to Normandy.

Tolan
02-03-2014, 05:38 PM
IMHO, better to rely on population studies, like Busby et al, when available. Places of ancestral origin in FTDNA projects are customer reported and not always reliable. Often they are the product of the wish being father to the thought. There are people who report Norman ancestry, for example, who read somewhere that their surname has a Norman origin but who have no other connection to Normandy.

A case like this, normally I don't count him! ;)
Unless, he has informed a specific place in Normandy (I counted on the maps of the projects).
One of the benefits of the projects, it's is that, usually, members have done a little genealogy and know their ancestors before the twentieth century. While scientific studies studying the current populations.
The twentieth century brought inter-regional mixture.


Otherwise, I made a small mistake in the cutting England!
In my maps, East Anglia should be with the East-Center not in the Southeast.:redface:

Is it there was a strong immigration of Normans (from France) in the South East with William the Conqueror? The high rate of L21 is necessarily decreased the rate of U106!
I do not exclude of course, a sample not enough representative, as perhaps also in Northern France!
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/Europemix2.png

GoldenHind
02-03-2014, 06:03 PM
The population influx into England with William the Conqueror is thought to have been very small. Substantial portions of the incomers also came from Brittany and Flanders, and some were from other areas of northern France, such as the Pas de Calais. They were not concentrated in any particular area of England, but spread out through the entire country.

rms2
02-03-2014, 08:04 PM
I'll give you another example from my personal experience, but there have been others. I encountered a man, who shall remain nameless, who listed an Eastern European country as the place of origin for his y-dna mdka. He was L21+ and had an English-looking surname. When I contacted him, I found out that Eastern European country was actually his mother's home country. Last I checked, he had not changed it.

I have encountered others who, with very little to go on, have laid claim to this or that European country.

I would rather see a Google map with push-pins for reported results than a map that purports to show haplogroup percentages but actually does more harm than good.

Webb
02-03-2014, 08:30 PM
I'll give you another example from my personal experience, but there have been others. I encountered a man, who shall remain nameless, who listed an Eastern European country as the place of origin for his y-dna mdka. He was L21+ and had an English-looking surname. When I contacted him, I found out that Eastern European country was actually his mother's home country. Last I checked, he had not changed it.

I have encountered others who, with very little to go on, have laid claim to this or that European country.

I would rather see a Google map with push-pins for reported results than a map that purports to show haplogroup percentages but actually does more harm than good.

I see what you are saying, however, I went back and scanned pretty quickly through the DF27 project, and compared his map with a few other recent DF27 maps, and he is pretty much spot on for current populations.

avalon
02-03-2014, 10:45 PM
A case like this, normally I don't count him! ;)
Unless, he has informed a specific place in Normandy (I counted on the maps of the projects).
One of the benefits of the projects, it's is that, usually, members have done a little genealogy and know their ancestors before the twentieth century. While scientific studies studying the current populations.
The twentieth century brought inter-regional mixture.


Otherwise, I made a small mistake in the cutting England!
In my maps, East Anglia should be with the East-Center not in the Southeast.:redface:

Is it there was a strong immigration of Normans (from France) in the South East with William the Conqueror? The high rate of L21 is necessarily decreased the rate of U106!
I do not exclude of course, a sample not enough representative, as perhaps also in Northern France!
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/Europemix2.png

Thanks for the map Tolan, although as rms2 has said these frequencies are not based on a scientific sample so caution is needed.

Having said that, it would not surprise me if U106, which I believe is a "Germanic" marker in Britain is at reasonable levels in SW England. The modern counties of Devon, Somerset and Dorset had all been incorporated into the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex by the 8th century. From memory, the People of the British Isles project showed in their maps that Devon had as much "Germanic" ancestry as much of Northern England.

Cornwall resisted the English for much longer but nowadays Cornwall is thoroughly anglicised despite the best efforts of nationalists to revive the Cornish language. In my experience, Cornwall is packed full of English blow ins and the numbers of native Cornish men with deep ancestry must surely be dwindling.

The problem we have with Cornwall is limited data IMO. Busby's sample for SW England was from Exeter which is in Devon.

Heber
02-03-2014, 10:54 PM
Tolan,

Thanks for the great map.
I have used both the project data and published study data in my analysis.
I come to similar conclusions to yours.

My preferred sources for research are

for M269 published studies, Busby and Myres.
for the Y Phylogenetic Tree, Tyler Smith, Wei and Zhu
for Celtic Archealogy, Professor Barry Cunliffe.
for Celtic Language, Professor John Koch.
for Irish Surnames, McLysagh, Keating, Woulfe.
for old Irish Genealogies, McFirbis and O Cleary.

Looking at the (simplified) Busby data, which is possibly the best published source source for M269.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534767059037/

The highest frequency with a maximum score of 1.0 are:

M269: West of Ireland, Basque
L51: West of Ireland
L11* West of Ireland
P312* West of Ireland
L21* West of Ireland
M222 West of Ireland (Myres, Genographic)

Highest Frequency < 1.0
U152 Switzerland/Alps
DF27 Iberia, SW France

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-m269/

This would appear to indicate that expansion occurred
for L21 in the Isles,
for DF27 in Iberia
for U152 in the Alps.

The latest high coverage studies are Genographic Mayo in Ireland and Asturias project in Iberia.
Summary results were reported for Mayo with R1b@92% and very high L21 and M222 and many new SNPs under M222.

Here is a map of L21 and its SNPs in Ireland based on project data.

You can see the hotspots for DF49 in Mayo and Donegal.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534766931939/

Both Mayo and Asturias detailed results have yet to be published.
I would expect high levels of DF27 and P312 and possibly significant traces of L11 for Asturias.

Here is my best understanding of how the various SNPs under M269 expanded.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534767058376/

This map will change as the new Big Y and FGC results become clear.
I hope that the frequently promised new Phylogenetic Tree will be published soon.
This should show the expansion of
U152 and in particular L2,
L21 and in particular DF13 and M222
DF27 extreme expansion.

If done correctly it should also show the sequence of these expansions.
So we have to be patient a little bit longer.

Here is the Busby M269 SNP Frequency Analysis for France

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534767041230/

Hotspots are
M269: Basque
L23: Alpes M
L11: Alpes M
P312: NW France
L21: NW France
U152: Alps
DF27? S France

As France is a crossroads between Iberia, Alps and Isles it is good to get a picture of M269 and its SNPs there.

Anglecynn
02-04-2014, 12:20 AM
A case like this, normally I don't count him! ;)
Unless, he has informed a specific place in Normandy (I counted on the maps of the projects).
One of the benefits of the projects, it's is that, usually, members have done a little genealogy and know their ancestors before the twentieth century. While scientific studies studying the current populations.
The twentieth century brought inter-regional mixture.


Otherwise, I made a small mistake in the cutting England!
In my maps, East Anglia should be with the East-Center not in the Southeast.:redface:

Is it there was a strong immigration of Normans (from France) in the South East with William the Conqueror? The high rate of L21 is necessarily decreased the rate of U106!
I do not exclude of course, a sample not enough representative, as perhaps also in Northern France!
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/Europemix2.png

It looks almost like U152 expanded at the expense of DF27 in this map.

rms2
02-04-2014, 12:24 AM
Sorry, but I think Tolan's maps need reworking, unless you all really believe L21 has a frequency of 16% in NW Germany, for example, or that U106 is at 24% in the southern half of Scotland, 15% in the northern half, and that U152 is at 27% in SE Spain.

JRW
02-04-2014, 05:12 AM
IMHO, better to rely on population studies, like Busby et al, when available. Places of ancestral origin in FTDNA projects are customer reported and not always reliable. Often they are the product of the wish being father to the thought. There are people who report Norman ancestry, for example, who read somewhere that their surname has a Norman origin but who have no other connection to Normandy.

Indeed. There is a degree of error with all self-reporting. However, the problem isn't limited to FTDNA projects. I have read DNA population studies where the researchers will take DNA samples from men in a given town and ask the sample provider to confirm that his grandparents were born in the same area (at least this is better than just taking a cheek swab from any Joe who walks into the local clinic). Hopefully, the participant answers honestly and correctly -- but, who really knows?

IMO, for the purpose of these maps, the issue isn't one of error per se (there is some, no doubt), but one of bias. Is there any reason to believe that L21 project participants, for example, would incorrectly report certain locales for their MDKAs at a higher or lower rate than U106, U152, or DF27 project participants? Unless I see evidence to the contrary, I would have to assume that the errors on birthplace of a MDKA are randomly distributed -- across haplogroups and regions -- and are not so high as to be significant (although they could be if the sample is too small).

True random statistical sampling of a size to achieve a 95% confidence level by region would be great. Most population studies of DNA, however, aren't designed to achieve that. Busby, for example, only used 64 men from Hamburg (Table S1, Busby Data Supplement), a city of over 1.8 million people and having an immigrant population estimated at 30% (Wikipedia), to represent North Germany -- an area having over 5 million residents. I suppose that was OK for the purposes of the Busby paper... but, IMO, not a good basis for inferring a region's haplogroup distribution today, much less several thousand years ago.

rms2
02-04-2014, 09:01 AM
I have no desire to beat Tolan over the head for his maps, which look really good but just need some tweaking with regard to haplogroup percentages, but it's not as if there aren't glaring discrepancies between them and the best data we have: Busby et al. All of Busby's samples for Germany were relatively low in L21, not just Hamburg. One has to conclude that there just isn't a lot of L21 in Germany now. Hubert believed the Beaker Folk from the Rhineland who settled in the Isles left their homeland nearly lock, stock, and barrel. Maybe he was right.

I mentioned some of the other problems with Tolan's percentages. They aren't the only ones, but whatever. I'm not sure what the exact problem is that is producing these discrepancies, but it's making those maps, as they now stand, unreliable and in fact misleading.

Maciamo Hay's maps have their limitations, but at least he seems to have relied on data from actual scientific papers.

corner
02-04-2014, 11:55 AM
Feels like some of the picture is missing/blurred at the moment without a comprehensive academic study of all P312 subclades (including DF27, DF19, DF99, L238 etc) from right across Europe. Is there one in the pipeline?

rms2
02-04-2014, 12:53 PM
Here's another thought on the paucity of L21 in Busby's stats for Germany. L21 is a northern or (now) a northwestern haplogroup. It probably was much more frequent in NW and western Germany in the past than it is now in part because the Celts retreated west of the Rhine beginning in about 200 BC under mounting Germanic population pressure. Thus you see L21 in Busby at 5-6% in the Netherlands and Friesland and jumping to about 9% in Belgium (in the Brabant Project stats) and even higher as one moves west into northern France.

Webb
02-04-2014, 02:09 PM
Here's another thought on the paucity of L21 in Busby's stats for Germany. L21 is a northern or (now) a northwestern haplogroup. It probably was much more frequent in NW and western Germany in the past than it is now in part because the Celts retreated west of the Rhine beginning in about 200 BC under mounting Germanic population pressure. Thus you see L21 in Busby at 5-6% in the Netherlands and Friesland and jumping to about 9% in Belgium (in the Brabant Project stats) and even higher as one moves west into northern France.

If you get a chance, please scan the Slagel Surname Project at FTDNA, I believe I have mentioned this before. There are 15 lineages in this project, all with variations on spelling. It is a locality surname, someone from the town of Schlegel, which is in Thuringia in Germany. There are 6 P312 lineages, 3 of these are predicted L21 by Mike on a different thread, one confirmed L21, one confirmed SRY2627, and one confirmed U152. That is 40% P312, and 27% L21. That is pretty high, and maybe a true depiction of the layering of M269 in Germany, one not being captured by population genetic studies.

rms2
02-04-2014, 07:42 PM
If you get a chance, please scan the Slagel Surname Project at FTDNA, I believe I have mentioned this before. There are 15 lineages in this project, all with variations on spelling. It is a locality surname, someone from the town of Schlegel, which is in Thuringia in Germany. There are 6 P312 lineages, 3 of these are predicted L21 by Mike on a different thread, one confirmed L21, one confirmed SRY2627, and one confirmed U152. That is 40% P312, and 27% L21. That is pretty high, and maybe a true depiction of the layering of M269 in Germany, one not being captured by population genetic studies.

Interesting and diverse group, in terms of y haplogroups. I see one confirmed M222+ in there and another likely one. Too bad they don't have the SNP report function turned on.

It is surprising to me that no one has done a really thorough study of y haplogroups in European countries like Germany, but, honestly, I would be really surprised if L21 showed up there much higher than it did in Busby.

Tolan
02-08-2014, 07:31 PM
The Germans (in the broadest sense) did not begin arriving in the neighborhood of the Lower Rhine until about 700 BC, and it took them until around 200 BC to dislodge the Celts and push them west across the Rhine. Since U106, I believe, was connected to this movement of Germans, it was not present in the Lower Rhine during the Beaker (Bronze Age) Period.

I realize the results from two sets of remains are not a lot, but the only ancient y-dna we have from Beaker Folk tested U106-, and it came from an area that today is rich in U106: Germany. The two sets of male Beaker remains from Kromsdorf, Germany, were R1bxU106. One of them tested M269+; with the other they could only get as far as M343+. They did not test them for P312 or any of its downstream SNPs. Perhaps because the site was in Germany they expected them to be U106+.

Do you think the celts in the Lower Rhine were L21?
That would explain the 16% rate in Lower Saxony.
If U106, came after, and as U152, probably known to a fairly recent expansion to the north, it would mean that Western Europe were mainly occupied by L21 and DF27.
I made a map DF27 vs L21, it is boring to see that the area occupied by the Belgians (between the Somme in France and the Rhine) are mostly DF27, and this in the four areas that I do the calcul (Nord/Picardy, Flanders, Wallonia, and the Rhineland).
Some consider the Belgians as a mix of Celtic and Germanic, but others consider that they were neither of them!
Maybe the Celtic in Eastern Rhine could not go to the other side of the river because the land was already occupied ...

NB: I do some changes on my maps:
1) I added the results of the DNA project SRY2627 (I avoided duplication with DF27 dna project)
2) I added the HT35 percentages for southern Italy, which has reduced U152

The maps here:http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/R1bsousgroupes.htm

Il Papà
02-08-2014, 07:53 PM
Do you think the celts in the Lower Rhine were L21?
That would explain the 16% rate in Lower Saxony.
If U106, came after, and as U152, probably known to a fairly recent expansion to the north, it would mean that Western Europe were mainly occupied by L21 and DF27.
I made a map DF27 vs L21, it is boring to see that the area occupied by the Belgians (between the Somme in France and the Rhine) are mostly DF27, and this in the four areas that I do the calcul (Nord/Picardy, Flanders, Wallonia, and the Rhineland).
Some consider the Belgians as a mix of Celtic and Germanic, but others consider that they were neither of them!
Maybe the Celtic in Eastern Rhine could not go to the other side of the river because the land was already occupied ...

NB: I do some changes on my maps:
1) I added the results of the DNA project SRY2627 (I avoided duplication with DF27 dna project)
2) I added the HT35 percentages for southern Italy, which has reduced U152

The maps here:http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/R1bsousgroupes.htm

your map of U152 doesn't seems totally correct, a study published last year found almost 40% of U152 in tuscany.

rms2
02-08-2014, 09:55 PM
Tolan,

It seems to me the percentages are still way off in many areas. I think you would be better off sticking with Busby et al.

razyn
02-09-2014, 12:17 AM
If Tolan's mapped percentages seem off to you (Stevo) because they don't agree with Busby et al, that doesn't mean the latter got them right. It was academic, for whatever value that may add, but only used a few markers to deduce a few haplogroups reliably, before e.g. DF27 was "discovered" (or anyway before Busby et al had heard of it). I also recall Mikewww's well-taken points about the peculiar and agenda-driven marker selections of that study. Too bad DNA-Forums isn't still around, so we could reference that discussion thread. Anyway, a lot has been discovered (and even published) since that went to press.

rms2
02-09-2014, 12:56 AM
If Tolan's mapped percentages seem off to you (Stevo) because they don't agree with Busby et al, that doesn't mean the latter got them right. It was academic, for whatever value that may add, but only used a few markers to deduce a few haplogroups reliably, before e.g. DF27 was "discovered" (or anyway before Busby et al had heard of it). I also recall Mikewww's well-taken points about the peculiar and agenda-driven marker selections of that study. Too bad DNA-Forums isn't still around, so we could reference that discussion thread. Anyway, a lot has been discovered (and even published) since that went to press.

Busby et al has its limitations, for example, it has an eastern bias in England, but at least it was a scientific study. Of course Busby "got them right" in the sense that the results are what they are. But Tolan's percentages are based on self-reported ancestral locations from FTDNA projects - a minefield, in my experience - and R1b percentages in various countries as reported on a chart at Eupedia. A few errors here and there and the resultant percentages can be way off - and in my opinion that is what we are seeing. For example, I do not believe SE Spain is 25% U152, that the U106 percentages in France are as high as Tolan has them, or that L21 is as high in Germany as Tolan's map shows.

I'm sorry Busby was not able to include DF27 in its study, but it did not have DF99 or DF100 either. That does not invalidate the rest of its findings, however.

Tolan
02-09-2014, 05:21 AM
There is not enough data to Tuscany alone! I divided Italy in 3: Northern Italy, South and Sicily.
I could make a nice shading of to the south as Maciamo did, but it would have been speculation!


I am not going to spend my time to explain my maps! I know well that my maps are not perfected!
The percentages are not precise, but give an idea of the situation!
I am saddened that you did not understand it!

I would have liked discussing the separation between DF27 and L21 by the Rhine.
Sorry to have bothered you, I would not come any more with my maps!

MJost
02-09-2014, 05:27 AM
There is not enough data to Tuscany alone! I divided Italy in 3: Northern Italy, South and Sicily.
I could make a nice shading of to the south as Maciamo did, but it would have been speculation!


I am not going to spend my time to explain my maps! I know well that my maps are not perfected!
The percentages are not precise, but give an idea of the situation!
I am saddened that you did not understand it!

I would have liked discussing the separation between DF27 and L21 by the Rhine.
Sorry to have bothered you, I would not come any more with my maps!

Don't take things to serious as these things have been discussed to death. I like a new opinion once in a while. Please continue.

MJost

MitchellSince1893
02-09-2014, 07:02 AM
Tolan,

Don't take the comments here personally. I think that if it was initially understood how the maps were constructed i.e. imperfect FTDNA reported results, then folks would have known why there would be differences between your maps and other results.

As a GIS analyst, I for one appreciate your attempts to graphically display this data.

Hang in there.

Tolan
02-09-2014, 07:14 AM
Thank you!
We try to match archeology with genetics. Maybe this is a mistake. Archaeology is very incomplete, and dissemination of culture does not necessarily mean migration of people.
Maybe genetics can bring new vision!
Otherwise, I do not think my maps are really different from other ...
Genetics is getting better accept in France, and more and more French are interested.
New entries are welcome!
I remain convinced that the data FTDNA are a goldmine once we have correctly identified their limitations

Webb
02-09-2014, 02:35 PM
There is not enough data to Tuscany alone! I divided Italy in 3: Northern Italy, South and Sicily.
I could make a nice shading of to the south as Maciamo did, but it would have been speculation!


I am not going to spend my time to explain my maps! I know well that my maps are not perfected!
The percentages are not precise, but give an idea of the situation!
I am saddened that you did not understand it!

I would have liked discussing the separation between DF27 and L21 by the Rhine.
Sorry to have bothered you, I would not come any more with my maps!

I would like to hear your thoughts in regards to DF27 and L21 by the Rhine.

rms2
02-09-2014, 03:00 PM
I think the maps look good (as I said), but the percentages are off and need to be tweaked. I don't think it would be right to let erroneous haplogroup percentages pass without comment simply because someone might be offended. At least one person I know has already started posting the maps elsewhere on the net. Pretty soon they'll show up in Wikipedia as Gospel: the Vikings, the Goths, and the Anglo-Saxons will all be L21+, the Gauls U106+, and the Catalonians U152+.

alan
02-09-2014, 03:42 PM
I think on most L21 maps the continental cline you see in France almost continues into England. It is generally thought that the British L21 map represents a major chunk being taken out of the otherwise strong L21 in SE England. I think we should view the French cline as similar - L21 has had a massive bite taken out of it from the east/south-east. IMO the same general impression is given on the British and French maps - i.e. L21 was early and has been massively dented from the east and south-east by U106 and U152. Given the almost continuous cline from the isles to France in L21 I think it would be very inconsistent and the result of preconceptions to not interpret the cline in the same way on both sides of the channel. IMO the first dent in L21 may have started early with the slow but contract increase in the influence of west-central Europe seen from c. 1200-0 and the main clade representation is U152 and that this impact only reached the isles in the Iron Age and made only modest impact but probably started to impact L21 in France as early as the Urnfield and Hallstatt C phase. U106 IMO had no impact west of the Rhine or in the isles until Roman times and after. The fact that even after all this time its frequency levels dramtically increase where German was spoken as a folk language either now or in historic times clearly shows that it was strongly linked to Germanic languages.

JRW
02-09-2014, 04:09 PM
Tolan,

As you are discovering, genetic genealogy hobbyists are a tough group -- do not take the comments personally. The challenges of using samples drawn today's populations to infer earlier populations are huge. We have to be aware of how and for what purpose a data set was developed to be able to place that information into context. Even then, without understanding the area of the population being sampled and it's history, the information is of limited value. No one (I hope) would use the haplogroup distribution found in New York City today, to draw conclusions about the haplogroup distribution of New York City's population 100 years ago, much less 500 years ago. And, (I hope) no one would use New York City's haplogoup distribution to draw conclusions about the haplogroup distribution of New York State outside of the City. Yet, I observe hobbyists, and even some academics, committing the equivalent for cities and areas in Europe.

What I like about the FTDNA data is the broad scope of the data -- it isn't drawn only from big urban populations, which tend to be more reflective of country's population mix than that of a small town, or limited geographies. The problem with the data, of course, is that not all geographies are equally well represented and the error arising from self-reporting. What I like about data sets from academic studies is that there is an effort to impose a scientific approach and methodology, including quality control, and most are peer reviewed. However, researchers design them for researching a particular issue, and there is a high risk in using the data for researching or interpreting a different issue. So, we are very limited in our ability to do what we want to do as genetic genealogy hobbyists.

At a minimum, the maps you created got hobbyists thinking, stimulated discussion and served to remind us that we do not have good data from which to draw conclusions about pre-historic regional populations. And for that, I say, thank you.

Jim

wlharris1055@yahoo.com
02-09-2014, 05:52 PM
Amen Brother.

Tolan,

As you are discovering, genetic genealogy hobbyists are a tough group -- do not take the comments personally. The challenges of using samples drawn today's populations to infer earlier populations are huge. We have to be aware of how and for what purpose a data set was developed to be able to place that information into context. Even then, without understanding the area of the population being sampled and it's history, the information is of limited value. No one (I hope) would use the haplogroup distribution found in New York City today, to draw conclusions about the haplogroup distribution of New York City's population 100 years ago, much less 500 years ago. And, (I hope) no one would use New York City's haplogoup distribution to draw conclusions about the haplogroup distribution of New York State outside of the City. Yet, I observe hobbyists, and even some academics, committing the equivalent for cities and areas in Europe.

What I like about the FTDNA data is the broad scope of the data -- it isn't drawn only from big urban populations, which tend to be more reflective of country's population mix than that of a small town, or limited geographies. The problem with the data, of course, is that not all geographies are equally well represented and the error arising from self-reporting. What I like about data sets from academic studies is that there is an effort to impose a scientific approach and methodology, including quality control, and most are peer reviewed. However, researchers design them for researching a particular issue, and there is a high risk in using the data for researching or interpreting a different issue. So, we are very limited in our ability to do what we want to do as genetic genealogy hobbyists.

At a minimum, the maps you created got hobbyists thinking, stimulated discussion and served to remind us that we do not have good data from which to draw conclusions about pre-historic regional populations. And for that, I say, thank you.

Jim

MJost
02-09-2014, 07:06 PM
I think the maps look good (as I said), but the percentages are off and need to be tweaked. I don't think it would be right to let erroneous haplogroup percentages pass without comment simply because someone might be offended. At least one person I know has already started posting the maps elsewhere on the net. Pretty soon they'll show up in Wikipedia as Gospel: the Vikings, the Goths, and the Anglo-Saxons will all be L21+, the Gauls U106+, and the Catalonians U152+.
Your right, it just seems to happen, 'because I read it on the Internet" it true all the time.

MJost

MJost
02-09-2014, 10:11 PM
Ok, here is my run on the Busby 8/11 study at 15 STRs a couple of years ago that shows variance calculations, as is.

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1730/884.abstract?sid=e242d620-b13f-414c-bbdf-110d54cabc2a


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNM3FOYWxVX1praWs/edit?usp=sharing

MJost

Agamemnon
04-10-2014, 03:14 AM
Genetics is getting better accept in France, and more and more French are interested.

Unfortunately, that's not exactly true... France will remain the black hole of European population genetics for some time, I'm afraid!

Biloo
04-10-2014, 05:28 AM
Great map Tolan !
Your map will be even better if you could color Austria in red.
Austria is a hot spot for U106, U152 frequency is very low in this country compared to other alpine regions

Celtarion
04-10-2014, 07:56 AM
Unfortunately, that's not exactly true... France will remain the black hole of European population genetics for some time, I'm afraid!

As you already know, french law does not allow to do some DNA testing, however, a french magazine has stated that between 10 000 up to 20 000 french males/females get tested every year (in 2011). While the french were tested mainly in Switzerland and Belgium since 2000, it seems that Spain is now leading the way with 18 000 french males/females DNA tested every year (in 2011).

Only 6% of the DNA testing made are legal. DNAsolutions is where the french get tested.

Diverclic
04-10-2014, 08:21 AM
May be so many french get tested but : what kind of tests ? I suspect most of these are paternity tests, nothing to do with haplogroup identification. I am tired to hear these comments on french law : the law by itself is outdated ; a sequencing, like those of BigY or Fullgenomes was not even considered. Same for the type of test made by 23andME . The french law was against STR called in french "empreintes genetiques" (genetic prints) and that's all.
What I don't like in the kind of post above is that it tries to maintain the impact on occasional readers. That's the main point : there are in France some people who want to consider this distance to genetic tests as part of our "culture" which is wrong. It was just a mistake and may be with the economical difficulties it will be said and changed for an active development of DNA sequencing in France. I hope so.

Heber
04-10-2014, 10:33 AM
25 Human Genomes Available for Download

France is a center of excellence in Biotechnology as witnessed by Institute Pasteur and others. This Dataset which is the public domain contains French samples. I believe it is only a matter of time that medical testing will be used routinely in a clinical environment and genealogist can obtain ancestry information from that source.

In December 2013, the nonprofit Simons Foundation launched its Genome Diversity Project with 25 human genome sequences from 13 diverse populations around the world. The genomes include Sudanese, Han, Papuan, Australian, and French individuals, among others. The data was released in conjunction with a Nature paper that reported the first complete genome sequence of a Neanderthal.

The foundation, which sponsors research in basic science and mathematics, offers the data for download as a pilot initiative for the project, which will eventually contain 250 genomes from 125 diverse populations. Simons Foundation officials hope the data will be useful to scientists studying human genetic variation, such as evolutionary biologists and historians of human migration.

http://www.datainnovation.org/2014/04/25-human-genomes-available-for-download/

However the ban on paternity testing was upheld last year.

http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/mgtow-general-discussion/13697-paternity-testing-ban-upheld-france.html

Agamemnon
04-10-2014, 01:19 PM
As you already know, french law does not allow to do some DNA testing, however, a french magazine has stated that between 10 000 up to 20 000 french males/females get tested every year (in 2011). While the french were tested mainly in Switzerland and Belgium since 2000, it seems that Spain is now leading the way with 18 000 french males/females DNA tested every year (in 2011).

Only 6% of the DNA testing made are legal. DNAsolutions is where the french get tested.

All true, but we must also acknowledge the fact that DNA testing is frowned upon by most french society as a whole, I mean just look at what our current minister of culture has to say about DNA testing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb4EFSZ9X5M

What a genius, no wonder France's lagging behing every developped country with such a mindset... And people still wonder why I feel no affinity to the French, well here's one out of many reasons.

Seriously, after having spoken to numerous french people (des F de souche, pas des immigrés), I cannot refrain from showing a healthy dose of skepticism when someone starts claiming that french attitudes towards population genetics are changing: They are not.

Agamemnon
04-10-2014, 01:29 PM
there are in France some people who want to consider this distance to genetic tests as part of our "culture" which is wrong.

You cannot deny that there is a general distrust of population genetics in France, the "mood" is actually quite hostile to personal testing.
I recall speaking to a very famous archeologist two months ago, who actually worked on the Avellaner cave's paper, and I was shocked at how hostile & neglectful his stance towards genetic testing was.

And that's not the only case, I've spoken to many other "brainy" folks out there who looked at me as if I were a madman spewing nazi trivia & clichés all around.
That's the main problem here, if you start talking about DNA testing you almost immediately get labeled a racist, a nazi & whatnot.
I know it because I experienced it firsthand, and it's something you can clearly spot, a clear difference with Muricans, Canadians & even Brits who have a healthy approach towards DNA testing as a whole.

The very few times population genetics gets mentioned in the media here, it almost always turns into some sort of politically correct vendetta trying to cast doubt onto DNA testing's usefulness... I can't even imagine someone publishing a book like "Origins of the British" or "Ancestral Journeys" here in France without getting a lawsuit from the part of some oh-so legitimate "anti-racist" organisation, that's just unthinkable.

Tolan
04-10-2014, 03:22 PM
Agamemnon,
Pease, do not mix everything!

I think that the video makes reference to the law under Sarkosy, who wanted to use genetic testing to prevent abuse in the family reunion (regroupement familial) about emigration to France.

It is true that too many French archaeologists reject the DNA test, but they are "old idiots."
I hope in the new generation of archaeologists .. :)
DNA testing in France are not prohibited in a scientific or medical setting.

There was still some scientific studies in France which were realized.


Personally, I noticed on the French forums, not dedicated to the genetics, as forums of history or genealogy, that there is less "levée de boucliers" which there was still some years ago.

Agamemnon
04-10-2014, 04:42 PM
Agamemnon,
Pease, do not mix everything!

I think that the video makes reference to the law under Sarkosy, who wanted to use genetic testing to prevent abuse in the family reunion (regroupement familial) about emigration to France.

It is true that too many French archaeologists reject the DNA test, but they are "old idiots."
I hope in the new generation of archaeologists .. :)
DNA testing in France are not prohibited in a scientific or medical setting.

There was still some scientific studies in France which were realized.


Personally, I noticed on the French forums, not dedicated to the genetics, as forums of history or genealogy, that there is less "levée de boucliers" which there was still some years ago.

Well, these "old idiots", as you call them, are the ones who end up educating new generations of archeologists... And given the intellectual prowess of this generation, there's much to bet future archeologists will be just as dogmatic.

There have been a few good studies in France, aDNA studies for the most, but it's far from glorious to say the least.

This "levée de boucliers" you speak of is a general trend in french society, and I find it particularly disturbing.
All laymen in France are naturally inclined to display negative attitudes towards DNA testing, you can take my word for it.

And Filippetti isn't just referring to Sarkozy, she's referring to DNA testing in general... Which is why this speech is so telling.

alan
04-10-2014, 05:38 PM
Things can change quickly though and the same Nazi specter also made anything about genetics or human anthropology controversial until recently.

Generally speaking the idea of seeing membership of a nation on the basis of blood lines is something in which most Europeans have a very different attitude to Americans - who dont apply a bloodline membership rule to their own country but do tend to apply it to their ancestral country. Truth is that in Europe, national identity concepts are now similar to the idea of being an American - i.e. it is based on residence/citizenship and not blood lines. On a folk level in Europe the main identifier is language for national identity and dialect for local identity.

Membership of national or local identities in Europe tend to be considered more to depend on being brought up there, having the local dialect etc than anything to do with deeper ancestry or bloodlines. The primary identification of national or local identity by dint of local upbringing rather than ancestry is of course a necessity in an increasingly complex population and to not make that the primary qualifier and much more important than distant ancestral bloodlines etc would generally be seen as racist in Europe.

Because language or dialect is seen as the primary identifier of a member of a nation or local identity rather than bloodlines, the simple use of ethnic identifiers like 'Irish' 'Scottish' etc by people based on bloodlines does seem odd to the locals and some will actually object or ridicule this - terms like 'of Irish descent' etc go down a lot better.

Gray Fox
04-10-2014, 07:44 PM
I recently had an experience with a self proclaimed linguist, who vehemently disagreed that dna testing may help to show the extent of those people descended from Celtic speaking ancestors. I stated that Devon often isn't included in the general pan-celtic sphere and that it should at least be given a nod. He questioned my reasoning and I mentioned one of the recent studies which showed, that as one moves west in the county, that L21 levels rise drastically until reaching a high frequency in Cornwall. Of course this was interpreted as a threat to all of the recent immigrants to the area and that it would inevitably alienate those who didn't belong to the more Celtic inclined dna groups. We ended up agreeing to disagree and I left the group.

alan
04-10-2014, 08:52 PM
Funny enough the influx into the west country in recent generations that has most annoyed locals is actually mostly about wealthy people based in London buying 2nd homes they only live in for small parts of the year and therefore making the locals unable to afford houses in their own villages. The 2nd homes that are only lived in for a few months a year tends to lead to the local shops, pubs, post-offices etc struggling to exist. Locals, especially fishermen etc, in that area are often the victim of the prettiness of their villages. All the pretty fisherman's cottages at the sea front are occupied by rich people, often as 2nd homes, and the fishermen often have to live miles away from the harbours somewhere less chocolate box pretty where the house prices are kept down. An enormous amount of English villages no longer have real balanced communities of all social classes and are retirement villages or commutes for rich people who work in London. I think people expecting to find character filled yokels living in thatched cottages may be disappointed. Paradoxically, the rather feudal arrangement of tied cottages where cottages come with a job on some local big landlords estate is one of the few ways where balanced, real communities with local working people doing modest jobs can live in quaint villages and cottages.


I recently had an experience with a self proclaimed linguist, who vehemently disagreed that dna testing may help to show the extent of those people descended from Celtic speaking ancestors. I stated that Devon often isn't included in the general pan-celtic sphere and that it should at least be given a nod. He questioned my reasoning and I mentioned one of the recent studies which showed, that as one moves west in the county, that L21 levels rise drastically until reaching a high frequency in Cornwall. Of course this was interpreted as a threat to all of the recent immigrants to the area and that it would inevitably alienate those who didn't belong to the more Celtic inclined dna groups. We ended up agreeing to disagree and I left the group.

Agamemnon
04-10-2014, 09:51 PM
BTW Tolan, the U152 hotspot in Catalonia seems weird to say the least, rather unexpected.

Celtarion
04-10-2014, 11:18 PM
Agamemnon,
DNA testing in France are not prohibited in a scientific or medical setting.


They are not, but they need accreditation and authorisation from the government, just fact.


May be so many french get tested but : what kind of tests ? I suspect most of these are paternity tests, nothing to do with haplogroup identification. I am tired to hear these comments on french law : the law by itself is outdated ; a sequencing, like those of BigY or Fullgenomes was not even considered. Same for the type of test made by 23andME. The french law was against STR called in french "empreintes genetiques" (genetic prints) and that's all.
What I don't like in the kind of post above is that it tries to maintain the impact on occasional readers. That's the main point : there are in France some people who want to consider this distance to genetic tests as part of our "culture" which is wrong. It was just a mistake and may be with the economical difficulties it will be said and changed for an active development of DNA sequencing in France. I hope so.

Well since I started to be interested in DNA testing, I have been given the opportunity to talk and to meet a good number of Breton, and some of them placed an order anyway, but I have always warned them regarding the french law, it's there, it exists. The law is outdated as you said it, but still there anyway. And yes, they are mainly paternity test, but it gives a sign of some sort of interest in DNA testing anyway, I know, it's not about haplogroup and all, but hey, it's a start.

I'm not trying to maintain an impact on occasional readers and majority of them don't speak english and this is not the place where they would go to learn about DNA as beginner, it would be too much "technical" to understand, ISOGG would be a better place as a start. Based on your comment, I'm just proud to say that since I launched my blog in french end of september last year, it is a great success as I have been asked a good number of question, and I'm glad that we have knowledgeable and great people from the world to help and to answer my question when I need.

Again this week and for the first time, someone with a variant of my surname from the US which I was discussing for a month has finally placed a 67 Y-DNA order. His paper trail shows that his family is from Brittany which is quite interesting. Waiting for the kit to be returned from now.

With the french, it's all about time, confidence and understanding (and pricing). But if you look at the current tools, websites etc.. They are all in english, so it does not help nor encourage them to get DNA tested, however, I encourage them to use google chrome as an additional help and as an alternative.

Thanks,

Joss.

Gray Fox
04-10-2014, 11:58 PM
Funny enough the influx into the west country in recent generations that has most annoyed locals is actually mostly about wealthy people based in London buying 2nd homes they only live in for small parts of the year and therefore making the locals unable to afford houses in their own villages. The 2nd homes that are only lived in for a few months a year tends to lead to the local shops, pubs, post-offices etc struggling to exist. Locals, especially fishermen etc, in that area are often the victim of the prettiness of their villages. All the pretty fisherman's cottages at the sea front are occupied by rich people, often as 2nd homes, and the fishermen often have to live miles away from the harbours somewhere less chocolate box pretty where the house prices are kept down. An enormous amount of English villages no longer have real balanced communities of all social classes and are retirement villages or commutes for rich people who work in London. I think people expecting to find character filled yokels living in thatched cottages may be disappointed. Paradoxically, the rather feudal arrangement of tied cottages where cottages come with a job on some local big landlords estate is one of the few ways where balanced, real communities with local working people doing modest jobs can live in quaint villages and cottages.

There's a somewhat similar happening in the region that I live due to tourism for our lake (Lake Cumberland). Every year starting in May large flocks of people from the north, mainly Ohio, drive down to the area in force. We affectionately refer to them as the Buckeye Navy. Of course in the states there isn't really anyone complaining about this as it does bring in high amounts of revenue for the region. We're not old enough (in terms of settlement and familial seats) for anyone to feel as though their home or culture is being degraded.

Celtarion
04-11-2014, 11:37 AM
I was browsing the web and got this link from a french forum:

Forensic Population Genetics – Original Research
Y-chromosomal DNA analysis in French male lineages
E. Ramos-Luisa, b, Corresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, A. Blanco-Vereab, M. Briónb, V. Van Huffelc, P. Sánchez-Diza, A. Carracedoa, b

Received 29 July 2013; received in revised form 16 December 2013; accepted 18 December 2013. published online 31 December 2013.

Abstract
French population, despite of its crucial geographic location for repopulation movements of Europe across time, it has been insufficiently characterized at the genetic level, especially for Y-chromosomal DNA variation. In order to make a genetic structure characterization, we have analyzed the Y-chromosome diversity of 558 male individuals, scattered along 7 different French regions: Alsace (Strasbourg), Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand), Bretagne (Rennes), Île-de-France (Paris), Midi-Pyrénées (Toulouse), Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille) and Provence-Alpes-Côte d’Azur (Marseille). A total of 17 Y-chromosome STRs and 27 Y-chromosome SNPs were genotyped for each individual. Even though we find that most of the individual populations in France were not differentiated from each other, Bretagne population shows population substructure, an important fact to be considered when establishing general population databases.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187249731300255X (Y-chromosomal DNA analysis in French male lineages)

Sorry in advance if it has already been discussed on Anthrogenica, but I didn't find it anywhere on the forum using the search bar...

1708

1709

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87939976/Index2.png
(I tried to reduce the size of the last picture displayed, but I didn't succeed :wacko:)

Tolan
04-11-2014, 02:26 PM
I was browsing the web and got this link from a french forum:

Forensic Population Genetics – Original Research
Y-chromosomal DNA analysis in French male lineages
E. Ramos-Luisa, b, Corresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, A. Blanco-Vereab, M. Briónb, V. Van Huffelc, P. Sánchez-Diza, A. Carracedoa, b

Received 29 July 2013; received in revised form 16 December 2013; accepted 18 December 2013. published online 31 December 2013.

Abstract
French population, despite of its crucial geographic location for repopulation movements of Europe across time, it has been insufficiently characterized at the genetic level, especially for Y-chromosomal DNA variation. In order to make a genetic structure characterization, we have analyzed the Y-chromosome diversity of 558 male individuals, scattered along 7 different French regions: Alsace (Strasbourg), Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand), Bretagne (Rennes), Île-de-France (Paris), Midi-Pyrénées (Toulouse), Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille) and Provence-Alpes-Côte d’Azur (Marseille). A total of 17 Y-chromosome STRs and 27 Y-chromosome SNPs were genotyped for each individual. Even though we find that most of the individual populations in France were not differentiated from each other, Bretagne population shows population substructure, an important fact to be considered when establishing general population databases.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187249731300255X (Y-chromosomal DNA analysis in French male lineages)

Sorry in advance if it has already been discussed on Anthrogenica, but I didn't find it anywhere on the forum using the search bar...



Unfortunately, it lacks two markers for understanding: L21 and DF27.
These two markers are in R1b1b2.
If I do not make mistakes (this is a ancien classification), the "g" for U106, "h" for U152, "d" for SRY2627 and "e" for M222 (which is part of L21)

Dubhthach
04-11-2014, 02:43 PM
Without testing L21 or DF27 it's no wonder the figures for R1b1b2* are so high particulary in Brittany. Sloppy research for a paper published in 2013!!! Even if they had tested P312 it would have at least looked better.

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
04-11-2014, 05:59 PM
Of course, Busby et al got a figure of 40% L21 for their sample of 115 Breton men. P312xL21,U152 was 20.9%. Probably most of that was DF27.

Tolan
04-12-2014, 04:11 PM
Location of members of R1b DNA projects:
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zgZdGd_UYZcU.kwUm_4VjB7pQ

As can only do 3 layers in Google Maps, I have grouped DF27 (yellow circle) and U106 (red star) in a single layer, a layer L21 (blue diamond) and a layer U152 (green square)

Gray Fox
04-13-2014, 06:11 AM
I did something similar to what you are doing, but with SRY2627 only, and I can say that most if not nearly all of the yellow circles around the Poitou region likely belong to that sub clade. If testing were possible I believe the numbers would similar to those in Catalonia. I don't really think the Val d'aran percentage is reflective of a long time presence. Most likely a recent founder effect.

Perhaps you could start another thread, Tolan? I feel like this discussion would get more attention in a P312 all category.

Diverclic
04-13-2014, 10:41 AM
Let's go back to the reading of the little data with have for France.
I see the U152 group as linked to these "typical gaulish rounded head and a large moustache". Asterix is depicting this probable U152 type. It came from the alps. Presently there are larger densities south of the Alps in the Po area but toponymy is pointing towards a more nortern side of the Alps as the main origin (Hallstatt culture) ; an iron age culture at the time of the main expansion. Yet diffusion was earlier as data are indicating and when I compare the Corsica villages with the Ligurian area on the continent I notice the same kind of compact type of villages in mountains, an area good for sheeps. All these areas are still at good U152 densities. There are little data available (that's really a shame) on Bituriges area but U152 (L20) people were detected and it's known that this area was conquered early as part of the domain of tombs with buried charriots (bronze age). At that time the Bituriges area was an exception so much west ; this culture was much more east and centered on the Alps.
DF27 seems to fit with the Bell Beaker expansion on the Atlantic side, an early spread between Portugal and the present day Nederlands. At the same time the Rhone area for bell beakers would have been U152 following the explanation above. I believe DF27 evolution as Z196 and Z198 were that of a culture of traders, navigating on main rivers and the Atlantic coast. Tin (bronze age) and Amber might have been the 2 main products but not only. These population made counters on the western side of the european continent. One exception : the whole Iberian peninsula was inhabited with, as it seems, cultural exchanges with the indigenous populations (I2a - G2a3b). The whole Aquitania from Roman times was from this culture mainly. The language wasn't IE indicating that these traders had the language of the main populations they lived with for such a long time.
L21 is the P312 outcome in areas not yet U152. The group, it seems had a huge expansion but was later defeated by U152. It's possible that the Belgae expansion is reflecting this U152 expansion against L21 at the roman times, U152 reaching the eastern coast of Bristish isles. hence western Europe has a first "layer" of L21 (with some DF27 subgroups) and a second (mainly aristocratic) U152 layer.

U106 seems "germanic" and it was mainly on both banks of river Rhine. At middle ages times the Saxon population invaded the British isles, thus creating a main layer in the British isle population. It's still very much unclear who where the "germans" depicted by Julius Caesar as clearly different from Celtic populations.

rms2
04-13-2014, 12:59 PM
I have cobbled together a Google map of European data for U106; P312xL21,U152; L21; and U152 from the Busby et al study, with a green balloon for the Brabant DNA Project results and a red balloon for the Genome of the Netherlands results. I did not include any sample locations where the sample size was less than 25, and I left out the Caucasus locations. For almost all of them, the relevant categories all had a frequency of 0% (in two locations, P312xL21,U152 had a frequency of under 1%, but that was it). I understand the Brabant DNA Project took samples from all over Belgium and part of the southern Netherlands, but I do not know the locations from which the Genome of the Netherlands samples were taken, so I just stuck that balloon in Amsterdam.

Obviously, Busby did not test for DF27, which is a major shortcoming of that study. I would guess that most of the P312xL21,U152 in Busby is in fact DF27.

Some of the map coordinates supplied in the Busby spreadsheet were a little off, which you will see when you click on the balloons, but I copied and pasted them directly from the spreadsheet, so the errors (few in number) are not mine.

Busby Europe: U106; P312xL21,U152; L21; and U152. (Plus the Brabant DNA Project and Genome of the Netherlands Project results.) (http://goo.gl/maps/TRznX)

rms2
04-13-2014, 01:01 PM
Let's go back to the reading of the little data with have for France.
I see the U152 group as linked to these "typical gaulish rounded head and a large moustache". Asterix is depicting this probable U152 type. It came from the alps. Presently there are larger densities south of the Alps in the Po area but toponymy is pointing towards a more nortern side of the Alps as the main origin (Hallstatt culture) ; an iron age culture at the time of the main expansion. Yet diffusion was earlier as data are indicating and when I compare the Corsica villages with the Ligurian area on the continent I notice the same kind of compact type of villages in mountains, an area good for sheeps. All these areas are still at good U152 densities. There are little data available (that's really a shame) on Bituriges area but U152 (L20) people were detected and it's known that this area was conquered early as part of the domain of tombs with buried charriots (bronze age). At that time the Bituriges area was an exception so much west ; this culture was much more east and centered on the Alps.
DF27 seems to fit with the Bell Beaker expansion on the Atlantic side, an early spread between Portugal and the present day Nederlands. At the same time the Rhone area for bell beakers would have been U152 following the explanation above. I believe DF27 evolution as Z196 and Z198 were that of a culture of traders, navigating on main rivers and the Atlantic coast. Tin (bronze age) and Amber might have been the 2 main products but not only. These population made counters on the western side of the european continent. One exception : the whole Iberian peninsula was inhabited with, as it seems, cultural exchanges with the indigenous populations (I2a - G2a3b). The whole Aquitania from Roman times was from this culture mainly. The language wasn't IE indicating that these traders had the language of the main populations they lived with for such a long time.
L21 is the P312 outcome in areas not yet U152. The group, it seems had a huge expansion but was later defeated by U152. It's possible that the Belgae expansion is reflecting this U152 expansion against L21 at the roman times, U152 reaching the eastern coast of Bristish isles. hence western Europe has a first "layer" of L21 (with some DF27 subgroups) and a second (mainly aristocratic) U152 layer.

U106 seems "germanic" and it was mainly on both banks of river Rhine. At middle ages times the Saxon population invaded the British isles, thus creating a main layer in the British isle population. It's still very much unclear who where the "germans" depicted by Julius Caesar as clearly different from Celtic populations.

Personally, I think the amount of U152 spread by the Romans is greatly underestimated.

Diverclic
04-13-2014, 01:16 PM
Well, I do hope the roman influence can be targetted by more SNPs. Until now I saw no U152 signature from Rome itself. The cisalpine gauls early incorporated to the roman empire and the Provinciae (Marseille) alo U152 rich and early incorporated in the roman empire are 2 important sources for sure but is that really "roman". U152 in early Rome might exist but I don't think any such roman signature is known as of today and the question is : how many of the old roman lineages were U152 ?
For example the L20 lineage I described for the Bituriges doesn't look roman. So, which lineage for the romans ?

Gray Fox
04-14-2014, 06:38 AM
One perspective from my French dna cousin..

"French dont like DNA testing too much for several reasons, first of all lots of them are scared because of what happened during wolrd war 2, some others are scared not to be who they are (lots of them think they are 100% French), and the last one is political as they are about 12 native people co-existing in France and DNA could reveal a perticaular DNA that would reinforce the feeling of separatism (Breton, Basques, Catalan, Occitans etc...) and at a time when Scottland might end up free from the UK, all that makes it difficult to find any one to test."

Also I didn't want my last post to be misconstrued as a focus on SRY2627, I was speaking for the group at large.

Diverclic
04-14-2014, 07:45 AM
I don't think basic french people are so much scared. The ones who don't want testing on a large scale are those who "want" immigration in France. This creates 2 types of "french" people : new comers and people with lineages in France from much longer times (but not always from France as France had immigration also long ago). Let me precise my point. Why no scientific studies on french population (genetic studies) ? Well, any serious scientific study would have to distinguish between present day "french people" and ask for french people with a french grand father . This is typically the kind of taboo in present day France.
How did we get there ? Well, i suspect the jewish question isn't very far but colonization is also at work. France had colonies and even territories like Algeria where people had the french nationality. When french retreated from Algeria no one expected the algerian people to follow in France ! In the early 80s french companies were happy to get workers speaking french (they had been at french school in Algeria) and not as difficult as french workers (unions etc...). The same applied progressively to other french territories and french companies got addicted to this kind of cheap workers.
Also it seems that for some reason a large part of the french jewish community doesn't wish genetic tests. All these positions are against the sense of scientific progress as sequencing. I belive that a change will occur but I can't tell when.

rms2
04-14-2014, 10:51 AM
Well, I do hope the roman influence can be targetted by more SNPs. Until now I saw no U152 signature from Rome itself. The cisalpine gauls early incorporated to the roman empire and the Provinciae (Marseille) alo U152 rich and early incorporated in the roman empire are 2 important sources for sure but is that really "roman". U152 in early Rome might exist but I don't think any such roman signature is known as of today and the question is : how many of the old roman lineages were U152 ?
For example the L20 lineage I described for the Bituriges doesn't look roman. So, which lineage for the romans ?

I don't know, but U152 is far too common and widespread in Italy to attribute entirely to Cisalpine Gauls, and it shows up fairly substantially in other places, like Crete and Sardinia, for examples, where the Celts really did not go, but which the Romans controlled for nearly a millennium.

It always amazes me how little of the genetic profile of Europe is attributed to the Romans, when their republic and then empire, and their language, religion, and culture, were central facts of its existence for over a thousand years.

Tolan
04-14-2014, 03:05 PM
I think that European haplogroups were essentially fixed well before Roman times. Germanic migration, nomadic people much more than the Romans are probably the last to be upset, in some regions, the proportions of haplogroups.
I think the Roman haplogroups were as varied as the Italian of today

Agamemnon
04-14-2014, 03:41 PM
Personally, I think the amount of U152 spread by the Romans is greatly underestimated.

I think Italic speakers carried Z56 and Z192 for the most, as far as I know these are the most reliably Italic clades of U152.
But it really on depends on what you mean with "spread by the Romans" as you could argue that a fair chunk of Cisalpine Gauls also "spread" throughout the empire after having been assimilated by the Romans, and there's much to bet that Cisalpine Gauls might've carried Z36.

I tend to think the opposite: That the Roman contribution to U152's spread is largely overestimated and exaggerated.


I find U152's frequency in Catalonia intriguing since it tends to fit with the Urnfield horizon's maximum extent.


It always amazes me how little of the genetic profile of Europe is attributed to the Romans, when their republic and then empire, and their language, religion, and culture, were central facts of its existence for over a thousand years.

The Romans relied on assimilation, not population replacement.
Which is why any large-scale contribution of the Romans to Europe's genetic profile is controversial, to say the least.

This can be seen quite clearly in the low levels of IBD sharing with Italians throughout Europe.


Also it seems that for some reason a large part of the french jewish community doesn't wish genetic tests. All these positions are against the sense of scientific progress as sequencing. I belive that a change will occur but I can't tell when.

I don't know where you got this weird impression, but it's far from true.
Jews are probably some of the least hostile folks when it comes to DNA testing in France.

The game-changer is that there is no right wing in France (the "Front National" is but a mere copy of Marchais' communist party) and that the French aspire to fulfill Utopian ideals where "equality" has become an ideology.
Which is why putting the emphasis on the native French people's roots is a taboo, and those who try to endorse or at least publicise those roots are non-french for the most (such as Zemmour or Finkielkraut, both non-natives who use the "F de souche" label, which drives all the leftist nutcases crazy).

This is the main reason, and as we all know once you disagree with leftist dogma you immediately get labeled a "nazi", a "racist", a "fascist" & whatnot... This is what happens when you put their holy (and nonsensical) dogma of "equality" in jeopardy.
All of this doesn't make DNA testing very appealing, especially if you take the huge amount of nonsensical propaganda about personal genetics in the media.

France is an extreme case of cultural marxism having pervaded and infected not only the body politic, but society & culture as a whole.
Most native French people are very unenthusiastic about DNA testing... If not completely hostile towards the whole concept.

palamede
04-14-2014, 04:26 PM
We shouldn't exagerate the role of original Romans in the population of the Empire. The meaning of the "Roman People" changed from a small ethnic group grouping Latins and some part of Sabins and Etruscans to a communauty of people holding the Roman citizenship progressively, this thru several crisis :
- The slaughters of Romans and Allies by Hannibal of the years (218-201BC) of the second punic war, specially in the bloody battles of Trebia, Trasimene Lake, Cannae. This obliged to give the Roman citizenship to a lot of allies, mercenaries and freed slaves.
- Permanent foreign wars during the second century BC with some defeats. In more, the losses of soldiers were more important by exhaustion, illnesses, bad food than by fight often.
- The political troubles in Roma and Italy (Social war and competitions between parties and armies) obliged to give Roman citizenship to all the Italians including Ligures and Cisalpine Gauls in the first century BC. Dozens of thousands of surviving soldiers enrolled outside Italy received the citizenship at their end of service. In more, prosperous inhabitants of the province bought the citizenship to the Roman governors.

Roman citizenship became a political status before a cultural fact and less and less an ethnic grouping.
Immigration to Roma city and Campany were a lot more important than emigration to the provinces.

There were moves of soldiers, merchants and slaves from province to province, but it is difficult to estimate the importance of definitive emigration.

Written before reading Agamennon's post. I am also exasperated by the cultural marxism of the politically dominant groups, specially in medias (and more specially in public radio and TV channels owned by the French state whatever the right or left governments and population votes).

Tolan
04-14-2014, 05:47 PM
I don't know where you got this weird impression, but it's far from true.
Jews are probably some of the least hostile folks when it comes to DNA testing in France.

The game-changer is that there is no right wing in France (the "Front National" is but a mere copy of Marchais' communist party) and that the French aspire to fulfill Utopian ideals where "equality" has become an ideology.
Which is why putting the emphasis on the native French people's roots is a taboo, and those who try to endorse or at least publicise those roots are non-french for the most (such as Zemmour or Finkielkraut, both non-natives who use the "F de souche" label, which drives all the leftist nutcases crazy).

This is the main reason, and as we all know once you disagree with leftist dogma you immediately get labeled a "nazi", a "racist", a "fascist" & whatnot... This is what happens when you put their holy (and nonsensical) dogma of "equality" in jeopardy.
All of this doesn't make DNA testing very appealing, especially if you take the huge amount of nonsensical propaganda about personal genetics in the media.

France is an extreme case of cultural marxism having pervaded and infected not only the body politic, but society & culture as a whole.
Most native French people are very unenthusiastic about DNA testing... If not completely hostile towards the whole concept.

I agree! You know France and French very well.
But we must not generalize too much .. This thought is rather that of elites, the media and leftists and cities in general.


An equality imposed can become an injustice..
An unemployed person who gains(wins) so much that a worker is equal but inequitable!

However, I find that there is, more and more, difference of mentality between the campaign and the city and it is true, that to say that we are "français de souche", it is considered as racist by many.

Diverclic
04-14-2014, 06:39 PM
I don't know where you got this weird impression, but it's far from true.
Jews are probably some of the least hostile folks when it comes to DNA testing in France.
I got this idea from the comparison of USA jewish community and french jewish community in DNA stuff. Some french jews are very interested but it's a minority, while, just like american jews DNA could give answers that genealogy can't give them most of the time. May be I am wrong, but also, the jewish community is so active in politics and/or society debates that I only understand this way the dogma still so powerful in France. I don't share your view on right/ left opposition on such a matter. Now, you isolated my sentence : I didn't say that the law was because of the jewish community - far from that. My sentence was meaning that the opposition that could have come from the jewish community didn't work in France.

Back to genetics :

I find U152's frequency in Catalonia intriguing since it tends to fit with the Urnfield horizon's maximum extent.
I agree. There are several layers of U152. The first one might be the Rhone area of Bell Beakers with a later move to the upper Rhone area. If this timing is correct ten the Urnfield culture is well in the early stages of U152 expansion.

Celtarion
04-14-2014, 06:45 PM
One perspective from my French dna cousin..

"French dont like DNA testing too much for several reasons, first of all lots of them are scared because of what happened during wolrd war 2, some others are scared not to be who they are (lots of them think they are 100% French), and the last one is political as they are about 12 native people co-existing in France and DNA could reveal a perticaular DNA that would reinforce the feeling of separatism (Breton, Basques, Catalan, Occitans etc...) and at a time when Scottland might end up free from the UK, all that makes it difficult to find any one to test."

Also I didn't want my last post to be misconstrued as a focus on SRY2627, I was speaking for the group at large.

I would partially disagree with your cousin :-) Being from Brittany myself, we have a strong culture in this area and the result of my DNA testing has never affected me and if it would have been different, it would have not affected me either, we are what we are. It hasn't changed the way of my thinking, however, it has changed the fact that I want to know more (thanks to you guys for giving me this addiction ;)). WWII is an isolated thinking as nobody would make a such comparison with WWII in France and DNA testing, never.

The French are not silly to think that they are 100% French, and I have never heard about that before. Who would think that we are 100% of an specific ethnicity except people who think that they have a pure ethnicity. Thanks god, we are all different and colorful, otherwise, life would certainly be boring :amen:

There was a poll today in France relating to a dramatic case (a rape in secondary school) and there will be a DNA collection to find who is the criminal. The question was: Are you shocked that DNA is taken from minor pupils? 91% of the people answered no.
Sorry to make this comparison, but just to say that DNA testing does not shock in France as much as we think, I know it is for a different reason, just fact.

But I have to admit that, the lack of knowledge and misunderstanding of DNA testing is a serious issue in France and this is where the lack of interest is important in conjunction with barrier language (and pricing).

It is a false idea to say that it would reinforce separatism in France, as usual, better to dissimulate what we don't want to talk about rather than leaving the people to make their own opinion/idea, this shows where the progress is. Remember, France does not accept DNA testing due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families, with the French government citing psychologists who state that fatherhood is determined by society rather than biology.

I got some french tested lately, and they were happy to have it done, whatever the result was, they were happy by what they got, some of them were surprised, but all with no exception were not disappointed, and there is no reason to be.

Joss.

Gray Fox
04-14-2014, 07:11 PM
I would partially disagree with your cousin :-) Being from Brittany myself, we have a strong culture in this area and the result of my DNA testing has never affected me and if it would have been different, it would have not affected me either, we are what we are. It hasn't changed the way of my thinking, however, it has changed the fact that I want to know more (thanks to you guys for giving me this addiction ;)). WWII is an isolated thinking as nobody would make a such comparison with WWII in France and DNA testing, never.

The French are not silly to think that they are 100% French, and I have never heard about that before. Who would think that we are 100% of an specific ethnicity except people who think that they have a pure ethnicity. Thanks god, we are all different and colorful, otherwise, life would certainly be boring :amen:

There was a poll today in France relating to a dramatic case (a rape in secondary school) and there will be a DNA collection to find who is the criminal. The question was: Are you shocked that DNA is taken from minor pupils? 91% of the people answered no.
Sorry to make this comparison, but just to say that DNA testing does not shock in France as much as we think, I know it is for a different reason, just fact.

But I have to admit that, the lack of knowledge and misunderstanding of DNA testing is a serious issue in France and this is where the lack of interest is important in conjunction with barrier language (and pricing).

It is a false idea to say that it would reinforce separatism in France, as usual, better to dissimulate what we don't want to talk about rather than leaving the people to make their own opinion/idea, this shows where the progress is. Remember, France does not accept DNA testing due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families, with the French government citing psychologists who state that fatherhood is determined by society rather than biology.

I got some french tested lately, and they were happy to have it done, whatever the result was, they were happy by what they got, some of them were surprised, but all with no exception were not disappointed, and there is no reason to be.

Joss.

That also happens to be where he is from! I think though that he was referring to those people hostile towards the idea more than your everyday normal citizen.

rms2
04-14-2014, 08:28 PM
I knew someone would roll out the old "the Romans relied on assimilation" chestnut, and apparently more than one person did. Look, U152 is quite common in Italy: too widespread and common to attribute it to Cisalpine Gauls alone. It also exists substantially in places the Romans went that Cisalpine Gauls did not. Yes, Gauls served in the Roman Army, as did Britons, Germans, Middle Easterners, people who were left-handed, etc.

The Roman Empire was a massive undertaking that altered the languages, religion, legal systems, and culture of much of Europe, and lasted, at least in the East, until 1453. It stirred the human pot mightily, IMHO. To think it had little genetic impact to me is laughable.

rms2
04-14-2014, 08:45 PM
. . .


I find U152's frequency in Catalonia intriguing since it tends to fit with the Urnfield horizon's maximum extent.


Upon what are you relying for U152's frequency in Catalonia?

Not Tolan's maps from page 2 of this thread, I hope? There is no way U152 is that frequent throughout southern Spain, ranging from 7% in the southwest to 15% (!) in the south central to 27% (!) in the southeast.

In Busby et al, U152 goes from 0.8% in Seville (n=127) to 7.1% in Valencia (n=168). L21 had exactly the same frequencies in both places.

Agamemnon
04-14-2014, 08:50 PM
Upon what are you relying for U152's frequency in Catalonia?

Tolan's map of course :)

I doubt U152 is that common back there though, my guess is it should be around 5 to 6%.

Either way, I think Urnfield was a crucial step U152's history.

rms2
04-14-2014, 08:58 PM
Tolan's map of course :)

I doubt U152 is that common back there though, my guess is it should be around 5 to 6%.

Either way, I think Urnfield was a crucial step U152's history.

Yeah, I think that is right: 5-7%, that high due to proximity to France. Same thing for L21.

Agamemnon
04-14-2014, 09:11 PM
I knew someone would roll out the old "the Romans relied on assimilation" chestnut, and apparently more than one person did. Look, U152 is quite common in Italy: too widespread and common to attribute it to Cisalpine Gauls alone. It also exists substantially in places the Romans went that Cisalpine Gauls did not. Yes, Gauls served in the Roman Army, as did Britons, Germans, Middle Easterners, people who were left-handed, etc.

The Roman Empire was a massive undertaking that altered the languages, religion, legal systems, and culture of much of Europe, and lasted, at least in the East, until 1453. It stirred the human pot mightily, IMHO. To think it had little genetic impact to me is laughable.

It is anything but a "chestnut", the Romans really relied on assimilation.
Which is why so many emperors were of non-Italic origin.

Roman citizenship was the means which enabled the Roman empire to maintain a firm grip onto its territory, which is why ethnic criteria took a day off.

The fact that Vulgar Latin was adopted in Gaul, Iberia & Britain isn't exactly surprising: The local Celts spoke a language more or less similar to the Latin language of the intruding Romans, both were derived from a Celto-Italic ancestor.
The similarities in speech surely eased the assimilation process.

In places where it was totally alien, Latin never really took off... Which is why the Eastern Empire was Greek-speaking, putting the military administration aside of course.

The same thing happened with Arabic, which was adopted by people who spoke related Semitic languages (such as Aramaic) at first before overthrowing related Afroasiatic languages (such as Coptic & Berber).
In places where it was foreign, Arabic didn't take off either... Places such as Iran and Iberia.

Culturally, as Horace said, "Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit"... So we're dealing with a strawman here (there's much to bet that the pre-Etruscan Italic speakers led a very similar lifestyle to that of the Iron Age Celts).

All in all, I am not claiming that the Romans had no impact, which would be a ridiculous thing to say... What I am saying though, is that there isn't much compelling us to label a sizeable portion of U152 "Roman".
U152 probably spread in Central Europe with the Eastern Bell Beakers, before expanding with Urnfield and related cultural horizons...
Not very "sexy", I know, but that's a more realistic approach than labeling it Roman.
Z56 seems to have spread out with Italic tribes, so there's the possibility it came to France, Iberia & the Isles with the Romans... But this is by no means certain, likely perhaps but not certain.

We must keep in mind that the Latins were but a branch of the Italic people, along with the Falisci, Umbri and Osci who also ended up being assimilated by their stronger Roman neighbour.

rms2
04-14-2014, 09:35 PM
It is anything but a "chestnut", the Romans really relied on assimilation.

It is a very old chestnut, constantly trotted out and repeated, especially if one wants that U152 was not spread by the Romans. That is what makes it an old chestnut.



Which is why so many emperors were of non-Italic origin.

Roman citizenship was the means which enabled the Roman empire to maintain a firm grip onto its territory, which is why ethnic criteria took a day off.

The fact that Vulgar Latin was adopted in Gaul, Iberia & Britain isn't exactly surprising: The local Celts spoke a language more or less similar to the Latin language of the intruding Romans, both were derived from a Celto-Italic ancestor.
The similarities in speech surely eased the assimilation process.

In places where it was totally alien, Latin never really took off... Which is why the Eastern Empire was Greek-speaking, putting the military administration aside of course.

The same thing happened with Arabic, which was adopted by people who spoke related Semitic languages (such as Aramaic) at first before overthrowing related Afroasiatic languages (such as Coptic & Berber).
In places where it was foreign, Arabic didn't take off either... Places such as Iran and Iberia.

Culturally, as Horace said, "Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit"... So we're dealing with a strawman here (there's much to bet that the pre-Etruscan Italic speakers led a very similar lifestyle to that of the Iron Age Celts).

We're not dealing with a "strawman", which involves misrepresentation of the original topic. I did not do that; in fact, if anyone did, it wasn't me.

I apologize ahead of time for sounding grumpy, but I really dislike unnecessary and unwanted lectures in history. I am fairly well acquainted with ancient and medieval European history. I won't go into a c.v. to justify that statement, but please spare me.

The Romans did not get the opportunity to "assimilate" anyone without first coming in force with a large contingent of Italian troops. Yes, they made citizens out of many non-Italians, but that is not really germane to the idea that the Romans spread U152 about their empire.



All in all, I am not claiming that the Romans had no impact, which would be a ridiculous thing to say... What I am saying though, is that there isn't much compelling us to label a sizeable portion of U152 as "Roman".
U152 probably spread in Central Europe with the Eastern Bell Beakers, before expanding with Urnfield and related cultural horizons... Not very "sexy", I know, but that's a more realistic approach than labeling it Roman.
Z56 might've spread out with Italic tribes, so there's a possibility it came to France, Iberia & the Isles with the Romans... But this is by no means certain, likely perhaps but not certain.

We must keep in mind that the Latins were but a branch of the Italic family, along with the Falisci, Umbri and Osci who also ended up being assimilated by their stronger Roman neighbour.

Again, please spare me the stuff I already know. Funny thing: I think it is the idea that Romans spread U152 around that people find unsexy. Most seem to prefer northern barbarians to Mediterraneans.

First off, the Beaker Folk are too early to be relevant to this discussion, since doubtless they spread early Italo-Celtic to begin with and are probably originally responsible for nearly all of the P312 nearly everywhere it is found.

Your argument does not deal with what I said before: U152 is too general and common in Italy to attribute it all to Cisalpine Gauls, and it is found in places where the Gauls did not go or did not settle in substantial numbers.

Agamemnon
04-14-2014, 09:57 PM
It is a very old chestnut, constantly trotted out and repeated, especially if one wants that U152 was not spread by the Romans. That is what makes it an old chestnut.

I really fail to see how I am denying U152 a potential association with Romans, it's not an "old chestnut" since it relies on facts.


We're not dealing with a "strawman", which involves misrepresentation of the original topic. I did not do that; in fact, if anyone did, it wasn't me.

I apologize ahead of time for sounding grumpy, but I really dislike unnecessary and unwanted lectures in history. I am fairly well acquainted with ancient and medieval European history. I won't go into a c.v. to justify that statement, but please spare me.

The Romans did not get the opportunity to "assimilate" anyone without first coming in force with a large contingent of Italian troops. Yes, they made citizens out of many non-Italians, but that is not really germane to the idea that the Romans spread U152 about their empire.

Again, please spare me the stuff I already know. Funny thing: I think it is the idea that Romans spread U152 around that people find unsexy. Most seem to prefer northern barbarians to Mediterraneans.

First off, the Beaker Folk are too early to be relevant to this discussion, since doubtless they spread early Italo-Celtic to begin with and are probably originally responsible for nearly all of the P312 nearly everywhere it is found.

Your argument does not deal with what I said before: U152 is too general and common in Italy to attribute it all to Cisalpine Gauls, and it is found in places where the Gauls did not go or did not settle in substantial numbers.

Like I said, Italic speakers weren't all that different from the "northern barbarians" you speak of, until they stumbled on the Etruscans and the Greeks that is.... But I tend to think the opposite, many laymen are willing to view themselves as the descendants of legionnaries (you can see this with other haplogroups such as J2 or E-V13).

Either way, I did not attribute all Italian U152 to Cisalpine Gauls, this is a gross misrepresentation of what I am saying.

However I do think the Cisalpine Gauls & Ligurians left behind a non-negligible amount of lineages in Italy, and I wouldn't be surprised to see this confirmed when we'll get our hands on aDNA samples in a few years.

I also think we shouldn't expect U152's phylogeny to stick to the linguistic side of the story, which is already blur by its very own self (Venetian comes to mind)...
Though I'm fairly confident we'll be able to make a distinction between Italic and non-Italic clades of S28 one day or another.

alan
04-14-2014, 10:16 PM
I think given the amount of U152 in Italy it is pretty inconceivable that at least some of it is not down to Italian settlers and soldiers spreading into Gaul etc. I dont think a huge amount of it is of Roman origin but it would be distinctly odd if some isnt.

Tolan
04-15-2014, 04:12 AM
The French are not silly to think that they are 100% French, and I have never heard about that before. Who would think that we are 100% of an specific ethnicity except people who think that they have a pure ethnicity. Thanks god, we are all different and colorful, otherwise, life would certainly be boring :amen:


Me!, I am 100% French!
All my ancestors come from a small area of ​​100km in diameter, at least since the seventeenth century. And I do not think my ancestors more ancients come from much further.
I am neither proud of it nor ashamed!
I am not alone in this case in France, but some millions!
Countrymen are often denigrated in France, often ignored!
I do not see why those who have multiple origins would be superior to others, and I can not let you say that!

Bolgeris
04-15-2014, 09:07 AM
Error edited in the wrong place.. i am L20...

Rathna
04-15-2014, 09:16 AM
Error edited in the wrong place.. i am L20...

But unfortunately you deleted your interesting post!

palamede
04-15-2014, 09:28 AM
I am not 100% French, but almost because my father was from Charleroi country in Belgian Hainaut (Wallony), French Hainaut exists also as an extension, both are the south part of the Gallic (and very romanized) city of Nervii. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervii

Due to an earlier "demographic transition" in 19th century and to the big human losses of the First World War on a country with weaker young generation, France began to know an important immigration.

"France, immigration country" is a political legend before 1800, artificially created by the political parties and medias. Before 1800, 90% of population was born, married, and was dead in the same small region, ofter in the same village or neighbouring villages as showed by the genealogical trees (Nobles, soldiers and merchants were exceptions). But thru the 19th and 20th centuries, it was less and less true.

While the immigrants were from European origin, the problem was not too political, even what they said about the virtue of "cultural assimilation" was a little exagerated.

But when the extra-European immigration became important in the seventies (Before 1970, the myth was these workers will come back in their homeland) , the political, intellectual and mediatic speeches changed their themes in all political parties and the virtues lent to multiculturalism became popular in elites (specially in medias and show bizz). These virtues of multiculturalisn were less and less popular when it became obvious an important part (not all) of the moslem immigrants wished to liveg in an independant and traditional way and we are in this state of the identity crisis.

All this added to the "traditional" pseudo-marxists and all environmental-origin speeches to explain the tensions in France about the genetic tests about origins. For genetic tests about illnesses or forensic medicine, the pros and the cons are not different from other countries.

It must be noticed the state of mind is not very different in French-speaking part of Belgium, Switzerland.

As son of peasants, I think Tolan is a little exagerated about the contempt of countrymen by city men in France. Maybe different in Brittany with the old opposition of roman catholic, royalist, chouan and speaking Briton or Gallo countrymen and the free-mason, republican, "blue" and French-speaking town men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chouannerie

Personnally, I see a despising and condescending attitude of high and middle bureaucraty of administrations and big firms with its connections in the political, intellectual and mediatic worlds versus the remaining parts of population. I precize there are a few very authentic intellectuals who have a more deep, understanding and independant analysis .

Diverclic
04-15-2014, 11:25 AM
An unusual part of thread with mainly frecnh speakers, exchanging in english !
I'll talk about my surroudings. First , despite all what can be said on scientific sampling allowed in France, I note that NOTHING was done in the whole ancient province of Berry , the territory of the Bituriges in Roman times (and earlier !). What kind of sampling of France can "avoid" this part ? This, only to insist : the scientif sampling of France is still to be done.
I have been part of several genealogy associations. genealogy is very active in France and many people have both an interest in their own origin and also an interest in history of their region. I tried to introduce genetic tests (for Bituriges understanding) : no interest. The absence of french involvement (no french companies) and the cost seem to be the first stops.

rms2
04-15-2014, 12:11 PM
I really fail to see how I am denying U152 a potential association with Romans, it's not an "old chestnut" since it relies on facts . . .


"The Romans relied on assimilation" is an old chestnut because it is repeatedly trotted out as if it were the only fact, and as if the Romans (meaning, in this case, native Italians) never went anywhere outside of Italy themselves but somehow managed assimilation, including language change, via mental telepathy.

But, look, I did not mean to start a big argument over this, and I do not think you are denying U152 a potential association with the Romans. All I said to start with is that I think the Roman spread of U152 is greatly underrated, and I still think that is true. One almost never sees it done. It's always Hallstatt this and La Tene that.

Tolan
04-15-2014, 01:26 PM
"The Romans relied on assimilation" is an old chestnut because it is repeatedly trotted out as if it were the only fact, and as if the Romans (meaning, in this case, native Italians) never went anywhere outside of Italy themselves but somehow managed assimilation, including language change, via mental telepathy.

But, look, I did not mean to start a big argument over this, and I do not think you are denying U152 a potential association with the Romans. All I said to start with is that I think the Roman spread of U152 is greatly underrated, and I still think that is true. One almost never sees it done. It's always Hallstatt this and La Tene that.

I agree, some Roman went almost everywhere in the Roman Empire, but many of Roman would be needed to appears in the DNA tests!
1000 Romans in a local population of 100 000 inhabitants, it is only 1 %! And the Roman were not all U152, thus I think that it is undetectable in the test!

palamede
04-15-2014, 01:54 PM
About French provinces with or without known studies about haplogroup frequencies.

- Flanders-Artois : Study of E. Ramos-Luis et al in the Blood Institutes, edited by Celtarion above in this thread (NPC). 12% hg E is too higher for "Francais de souche". In the majority of France for "Francais de souche", the balkanic E-V13 varies from 0,5% (Brittany) to 5% (East France), the oriental E-V34 from 0 to 2% and the total of remaining E is below 1%, except the Maghrebin E-V81 in Corsica certainly and maybe along Med and South Atlantic coasts, but this is not proved.
- Picardy : no study except 62% R1b in Somme Bay according to Balaresque and al.
- Ile De France : 2 studies without interest : Paris forensic institute (R1b less than 40%) and Ramos-Luis (IDF) with 10,5% of Sub-Saharian E and 10% E non-Sub-Saharian.
- Normandy : results in Eupedia, I don't know their origin : 76% R1b, 5% E, ......
- Champaign : no study
- Lorraine : no study
- Alsace : 2 studies : Strasbourg forensic institute and Ramos-Luis, they are probably exact enough.
- Burgundy : no study
- Franche-Comte and Bugey : no study
- Brittany : several studies without the immmigration problem, exact enough : Balaresque, Ramos-Luis, West Brittany by Brest University (I bet the Brest team received threats at the pre-publication and renounced to do the definite publication).
- Loire Valley with provinces of Anjou, Touraine, Orleanais, Berry : no study
- Poitou-Saintonge : results in Eupedia, I don't know their origin : 74,5% R1b, 1,5% E, ......
- Guyenne-Aquitaine : No result
- Limousin : No result
- Marche/Bourbonnais : No study
- Auvergne : one study Ramos-Luis with very strange results, needs to be verified absolutely : 5,5% R1a, 9% G, 8% J2, 3,5% J1b, 12,5% E, 4,5% T. 2 possile explanations: population of Auvergne is really special or forged study.
- Central Mountains with the provinces of Forez, Vivarais, Velay, Gevaudan, Rouergue, Quercy : No study
- Lyonnais : 2 studies : Lyon forensic institute and Ramos-Luis, they are probably exact enough.
- Alpine regions with provinces of Savoy, Dauphiné, High Provence : no study
- Comtat Venaissin (Vaucluse) : Myres et al gives 58% R1b but no other results, possible because Rhone Valley was a corridor of population moves.
- Gascogne and Basque country : several good Spanish studies
- Midi-Pyrenees with several small provinces : study of Ramos-Luis, to be verified. No study in French Pyrenees similar to good studies in Spanish Pyrenees, distribution of R1b-SRY2627 and I-L26 are not known.
- Languedoc and Roussillon : No study
- Low Provence : several studies but Myres and Ramos-Luis don't give the same result for R1b : Myres 66-67 % and Ramos-Luis 58%, maybe Myres study was more inland and Ramos-Luis more coastal if no other problems.
- Corsica : several good Italian studies

I think the majority of French genetician scholars regret the state, but none will dare to confront with the forces which control the administration , the scholar and research posts , the rewards , carreers and good reputation. For French people, it is useless to explain what are the forces. For others , I prefer to avoid.

alan
04-15-2014, 02:04 PM
The way France has just been described could easily be England. Pretty well tight knit communities in many rural areas slowly breaking down with industrial revolution and internal and later external migration primarily into the cities. There is a similar division between multi-ethnic cities being more to the left and countryside either conservative or Liberal voters. I think this is a pan 1st world change that has been going on for couple of centuries and even longer than that in a less dramatic way.

Celtarion
04-15-2014, 07:42 PM
Me!, I am 100% French!
All my ancestors come from a small area of ​​100km in diameter, at least since the seventeenth century. And I do not think my ancestors more ancients come from much further.
I am neither proud of it nor ashamed!
I am not alone in this case in France, but some millions!
Countrymen are often denigrated in France, often ignored!
I do not see why those who have multiple origins would be superior to others, and I can not let you say that!

Aww my apologies for the misinterpretation, I didn't mean that multiple origins would be superior to others at all, and this is not what I have written either, and this is not my thinking at all. Sorry for letting you thinking about that, I should have been more specific.

Webb
04-15-2014, 08:00 PM
"The Romans relied on assimilation" is an old chestnut because it is repeatedly trotted out as if it were the only fact, and as if the Romans (meaning, in this case, native Italians) never went anywhere outside of Italy themselves but somehow managed assimilation, including language change, via mental telepathy.

But, look, I did not mean to start a big argument over this, and I do not think you are denying U152 a potential association with the Romans. All I said to start with is that I think the Roman spread of U152 is greatly underrated, and I still think that is true. One almost never sees it done. It's always Hallstatt this and La Tene that.

My issue with the Hallstatt and La Tene association with U152, and I guess you could even include Roman spread of U152 is the reduced numbers of U152 in Spain. If it was carried by Hallstatt and La Tene Celts or Roman soldiers, I would expect to see more of it in Spain and we do not. There is simply not much of U152 present there and I have yet to come across anyone who is willing to address this lack of U152 in Spain.

rms2
04-15-2014, 08:31 PM
I agree, some Roman went almost everywhere in the Roman Empire, but many of Roman would be needed to appears in the DNA tests!
1000 Romans in a local population of 100 000 inhabitants, it is only 1 %! And the Roman were not all U152, thus I think that it is undetectable in the test!

On a pure numbers basis, perhaps, but elites generally enjoy a reproductive advantage far in excess of their beginning numbers. To the victor goes the spoils, including the women.

rms2
04-15-2014, 08:34 PM
My issue with the Hallstatt and La Tene association with U152, and I guess you could even include Roman spread of U152 is the reduced numbers of U152 in Spain. If it was carried by Hallstatt and La Tene Celts or Roman soldiers, I would expect to see more of it in Spain and we do not. There is simply not much of U152 present there and I have yet to come across anyone who is willing to address this lack of U152 in Spain.

U152 is present in Spain at high enough percentages to reflect a Roman impact. I don't think there was that much Hallstatt and La Tene influence there, which is reflected in the fact that P-Celtic never caught on in Iberia.

palamede
04-16-2014, 07:05 AM
On a pure numbers basis, perhaps, but elites generally enjoy a reproductive advantage far in excess of their beginning numbers. To the victor goes the spoils, including the women.

Rich,

It is not really true for people with relatively strict monogamous sexual relation like Christian people and before christianity, the wife was more respected in Western European countries than elsewhere as related by antique historians.
It is true you need this paradigm to explain a recent arrival of the dominant R1b-L51 and downstairs in Western Europe (from 40% to 95%)

How do you explain important frequency of U152 in Wallony, Maritime Flanders, East coasts of England and Scotland and the fact one sub-branch of R1b-L2 seems the privilege of France, UK (and probalby Belgium).

Outside Italy and Switzeland, L2 is the essential of U152 in Germany, France, Belgium and UK and it is a lot less true in Italy (specially Central Italy with Z36, Z56 and Z193).

Anyway, during the High Empire the aristocraty in Roman Gaul was the descendants of the nobles of independance time. It is said by antique writers and overall y inscriptions of antiquities, there are a lot of reference. During civil wars, Cesar's cavalry was essentially Gallic nobles, read the texts of Caius Julius Caesar and successors in writings.
Contrary to modern legend, Gaull begin to develop towns and important craft industies since the very important agricultural progress in the last two centuries before the Gaul conquest, thing which contributes to the loss of warrior virtues in the Gaul population and also wealth concentration, except the nobles who reserve the war activity personnally. It is said by Caius Julius Caesar and archeology.

rms2
04-16-2014, 10:23 PM
The Romans had conquered Gaul by about 50 years before the birth of Christ, and Britain before Christianity became widespread in Europe. Christian monogamy was not an obstacle for them. Even after the advent of Christianity, sex and reproduction outside of marriage were commonplace.

I did not say that all of the U152 in Europe was spread by the Romans. I said I think the amount of U152 spread by the Romans is greatly underrated. U152 is almost always chalked up to Hallstatt and La Tene Celts, Belgae, etc.

Judging by Busby and the Brabant DNA Project, U152 is not much more frequent in Wallonia and Flanders than L21, and it is certainly not very frequent at all in Scotland. In England, I think it can be attributed perhaps to some early La Tene influence, to the Belgae, to the Romans, and perhaps some even to the Anglo-Saxons.

Agamemnon
04-16-2014, 10:48 PM
The Romans had conquered Gaul by about 50 years before the birth of Christ, and Britain before Christianity became widespread in Europe. Christian monogamy was not an obstacle for them. Even after the advent of Christianity, sex and reproduction outside of marriage were commonplace.

I did not say that all of the U152 in Europe was spread by the Romans. I said I think the amount of U152 spread by the Romans is greatly underrated. U152 is almost always chalked up to Hallstatt and La Tene Celts, Belgae, etc.

Judging by Busby and the Brabant DNA Project, U152 is not much more frequent in Wallonia and Flanders than L21, and it is certainly not very frequent at all in Scotland. In England, I think it can be attributed perhaps to some early La Tene influence, to the Belgae, to the Romans, and perhaps some even to the Anglo-Saxons.

I agree with most of what you just said, but I find an association with Anglo-Saxons temptative at best given the paucity of U152 in Schleswig-Holstein and Denmark...
That doesn't necessarily mean U152 didn't come with the Anglo-Saxons, after all we don't really know which lineages were carried by the Anglo-Saxons, we can just speculate until we get aDNA results.
But I must say that the paucity of U152 in the Anglo-Saxon homeland does a great disfavour to this theory.

rms2
04-16-2014, 10:58 PM
I agree with most of what you just said, but I find an association with Anglo-Saxons temptative at best given the paucity of U152 in Schleswig-Holstein and Denmark...
That doesn't necessarily mean U152 didn't come with the Anglo-Saxons, after all we don't really know which lineages were carried by the Anglo-Saxons, we can just speculate until we get aDNA results.
But I must say that the paucity of U152 in the Anglo-Saxon homeland does a great disfavour to this theory.

Oh, I don't think much U152 came with the Anglo-Saxons, but the "Anglo-Saxons" included Germans from outside the usual North Sea littoral homelands. There were some Swabians (Schwaben, Suebi or Suevi) among them, for example. There is even an English town, I forget which one, and I don't feel like hunting the reference down, that was named for the Swabians among the Anglo-Saxons. Even some Slavonic Wends accompanied the Anglo-Saxons (but the Wends were probably mostly R1a).

Agamemnon
04-16-2014, 11:14 PM
Oh, I don't think much U152 came with the Anglo-Saxons, but the "Anglo-Saxons" included Germans from outside the usual North Sea littoral homelands. There were some Swabians (Schwaben, Suebi or Suevi) among them, for example. There is even an English town, I forget which one, and I don't feel like hunting the reference down, that was named for the Swabians among the Anglo-Saxons. Even some Slavonic Wends accompanied the Anglo-Saxons (but the Wends were probably mostly R1a).

Good point, I also think a good chunk of R1a-L664 could've come with the Anglo-Saxons, probably Franks who joined the lot.

However I think most of the I2a-M223 which people often tend to associate with intrusive Germanic speakers must've come earlier on with the Celts.
The only other person from Coney Weston who tested came out I2a-M223 for example.
So we have two lineages from this tiny village we know of, R-U152 (my grandfather's lineage, I suspect he was Z49 so I'll transfer his kit to FTDNA just to make sure) and I2a-M223 (Eustache Gates, 1566).

rms2
04-16-2014, 11:59 PM
That area of Suffolk was Iceni territory, wasn't it? A fair number of Roman villas in that area, as well (but your maternal grandfather is probably Z49 so likely descended from Celts). And of course Suffolk was the home of the "South Folk", i.e., Angles.

Roman villas map:

1730

Agamemnon
04-18-2014, 10:59 PM
That area of Suffolk was Iceni territory, wasn't it? A fair number of Roman villas in that area, as well (but your maternal grandfather is probably Z49 so likely descended from Celts). And of course Suffolk was the home of the "South Folk", i.e., Angles.

Roman villas map:

1730

Yes, and my maternal grandpa's village lied in the vicinity of Iceni territory by the way.
Most of Suffolk however was part of the Tinovantes' territory which was the Roman outpost from which the Romans tried settling Iceni lands:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Map_of_the_Territory_of_the_Trinovantes.svg/485px-Map_of_the_Territory_of_the_Trinovantes.svg.png

But yeah, I think you're right in asserting that my grandpa was Z49 as he tested negative to L20 (looked it up on 23andMe) and L2 was a "no call".
So I'll end up transfering the kit to FTDNA just to make sure.
But yeah, I seriously doubt Z49 came with the Romans.

I think my grandfather's lineage coming with the Celts is more realistic than an Anglo-Saxon ethnogenesis because, even though the village has a clearly Germanic name (and there aren't many Celtic toponyms in this area, the opposite is true for hydronyms though), they were all farmers (till the second half of the 19th century, after that they started inventing stuff lol [like the Clarke tin whistle, Robert Clarke is my grandpa's paternal great-grandfather... So my great-great-great grandfather. Another of his descendants worked on the first Rolls Royce, my grandpa's brother designed parts of the Lancaster bomber, etc... ]).

Gray Fox
04-18-2014, 11:13 PM
With Lancashire being the source of my Grandfathers U152 and his DYS492=14 value pretty much guaranteeing his Z56 status, I guess a Roman military presence could well have been the source. Though I'm not entirely convinced of that either. There does seem to be Italian specific sub clades of Z56, but I believe these may be younger? Also, there is a healthy presence of one of its sub clades in Poland and Eastern Europe in general. I've seen a couple of Jewish Z56's with mdka's in Russia as well. I'm not sure how well sampled Italy is, but I do know that France and Germany are/were in the lead for numbers in Ftdna projects. Just a few observations.

Agamemnon
04-18-2014, 11:24 PM
With Lancashire being the source of my Grandfathers U152 and his DYS492=14 value pretty much guaranteeing his Z56 status, I guess a Roman military presence could well have been the source. Though I'm not entirely convinced of that either. There does seem to be Italian specific sub clades of Z56, but I believe these may be younger? Also, there is a healthy presence of one of its sub clades in Poland and Eastern Europe in general. I've seen a couple of Jewish Z56's with mdka's in Russia as well. I'm not sure how well sampled Italy is, but I do know that France and Germany are/were in the lead for numbers in Ftdna projects. Just a few observations.

I do think it is reasonable to ascribe an Italic background to Z56, but I could be wrong.
Its presence amongst Jews could be due to Roman converts (ironically, I'd bet they converted in Judea as Jews were very closed even at the beginning of the diaspora, unlike what you can read here & there).

I think it's a very interesting lineage, but finding it that far north is puzzling to say the least.

rms2
04-19-2014, 12:12 AM
I do think it is reasonable to ascribe an Italic background to Z56, but I could be wrong.
Its presence amongst Jews could be due to Roman converts (ironically, I'd bet they converted in Judea as Jews were very closed even at the beginning of the diaspora, unlike what you can read here & there).

I think it's a very interesting lineage, but finding it that far north is puzzling to say the least.

As I am sure you know, Jews in Western Europe in the 14th century were blamed for the Black Plague and persecuted. Many of them fled to Poland, which was in many ways the most enlightened and open kingdom in Europe at the time. There is a haplotype cluster within L21 known as the "Baltic Cluster" composed, thus far, entirely of Ashkenazim from Poland, the Baltic states, and Russia. Its story and that of Z56 in Poland and elsewhere in Eastern Europe are probably pretty similar.

seferhabahir
03-12-2015, 12:08 AM
As I am sure you know, Jews in Western Europe in the 14th century were blamed for the Black Plague and persecuted. Many of them fled to Poland, which was in many ways the most enlightened and open kingdom in Europe at the time. There is a haplotype cluster within L21 known as the "Baltic Cluster" composed, thus far, entirely of Ashkenazim from Poland, the Baltic states, and Russia. Its story and that of Z56 in Poland and elsewhere in Eastern Europe are probably pretty similar.

I'm going to resurrect this thread because of something I just posted over on the Yahoo L21 forum in response to the possibility that some French royalty might have had Jewish paternal lines. Rich may remember that we talked about this four years ago on another forum when we did not know much about the Baltic Cluster other than its identification from STR markers. That post involved a "pseudo-Baltic Cluster" guy from France named Thierry whose markers seemed to indicate an affinity for the Jewish Baltic Cluster, but also indicated some distance separating him from others in that cluster. We know a little more about the Baltic Cluster now (it is identified by SNP A555 and a slew of other phylogenetic equivalent SNPs and is more properly called 251-z11EE in the spreadsheets).

Here's my (slightly edited) post from Yahoo.

"There is a lot of somewhat wild conjecture on the web about Charlemagne, William I, Theodoric, and the Makhir of Narbonne. These are sometimes used to support some kind of "descent from antiquity and House of David" hypothesis. So, let's stick to what I know.

There is a ysearch entry for someone named Thierry whose ancestor was from Chateau-Thierry, France that matches the DYS388=11, DYS439=11, and DY392=14 Z251 and A555 Jewish signature. Several people have tried to contact him in the past with no success. He would no doubt be Z251 and more than likely A555.

Now whether this person actually exists and whether he really took a DNA test I can't say. His results can be found in Mike's L21 spreadsheet which shows he has several odd-ball STR markers not found in other A555 folks, but in general he looks like the rest of the Jewish Z251 entries. So what can we make of this?

Because there are these additional off-modal markers, this person would not have the same recent common ancestor as the rest of Jewish 251-z11EE (even though he is in that cluster in Mike's spreadsheet). However, he would have a much earlier common ancestor with the rest of that group.

There is historical evidence of Middle East Jewish traders coming to France in the first few centuries of the Common Era. There is also anecdotal evidence of Jewish sages coming to southern France to start up or teach in talmudic academies at a slightly later date. There a couple of possibilities that come to mind:

1) These arriving Middle Eastern traders or sages might have influenced a few local Z251 males to convert to Judaism (in fact, there's evidence some people may have done this as a way to become better educated at the local talmudic academy).

2) Some of the arriving traders or sages might themselves have been "lost" Z251>S9294>FGC11986>A555 but the supporting evidence for that is slim since there isn't really any Z251 in the Middle East. It is possible they were in the Middle East, but then all of them left as part of the Jewish Diaspora.

France is a very under-tested population with regard to DNA which may help explain why there aren't any non-Jewish people with the identifying STR markers of 251-z11EE except for Mr. Thierry. If the non-Jewish descendents of 251-z11EE all stayed in France and the Jewish descendents of 251-z11EE all went (well, got pushed) to Eastern Europe, it would help explain why none of the giant sea of British Isles DNA testers show anything like 251-z11EE (i.e., there isn't any 251-z11EE in the British Isles probably because they all stayed in France or else went to the Grand Duchy of Poland and Lithuania where Jews were welcomed to settle)."

I've been thinking about this recently because I'm also trying to figure out how the well-identified group of R2 Ashkenazic Jews ended up in Eastern Europe, when their forebears were obviously living in the Middle East 2000 years ago based on a set of common SNPs belonging to the set of Mizrachi R2 Jews and the Ashkenazi R2 Jews. I would suggest that the second scenario above is highly likely in the case of R2 (...some of the arriving Jewish traders or sages showing up in in early medieval times might have been R2 Middle Eastern Jews).

Is there a possibility that if more French were tested, we would find some folks with Z251 DNA very similar to Thierry and 251-z11EE? It is all pretty intriguing, especially the fact that Château-Thierry, where Mr. Thierry's ancestor lived, is situated on the Marne River on the slope of a hill, at the top of which are the ruins of an old castle said to have been built about 720 by the Frankish ruler Charles Martel for his puppet Thierry IV (the Merovingian king Theodoric). It is said that after the legendary siege of Narbonne, Charlemagne, or, according to others, Charles Martel, granted numerous privileges to the Jews of the town in reward for the part they had taken in its surrender. Whether true or not, this story is mentioned by two Hebrew writers: Meïr ben Simeon of Narbonne and Abraham ibn Daud of Toledo.

joeflood
02-21-2016, 03:50 AM
I dont think this is right, I am finding 35% L21 in Alsace, almost as much as Brittany and Normandy. Presumably on the other side of the Rhine it is the same, though I am unable to find helpful German data.

It is fairly clear given the [presence of unique early L21 subclades in the area that the R1b Beaker folk sailed up the Rhine from SW England or Brittany, bypassed the marshy lowlands and set up a settlement. As they were normally chasing resources it is unclear what they were doing there, possibly they already knew it was a good place to grow alcohol which we know from their beakers they were fond of,

This also explains the Raithlin admixture in Germany.

Dubhthach
02-21-2016, 08:01 AM
I dont think this is right, I am finding 35% L21 in Alsace, almost as much as Brittany and Normandy. Presumably on the other side of the Rhine it is the same, though I am unable to find helpful German data.

It is fairly clear given the [presence of unique early L21 subclades in the area that the R1b Beaker folk sailed up the Rhine from SW England or Brittany, bypassed the marshy lowlands and set up a settlement. As they were normally chasing resources it is unclear what they were doing there, possibly they already knew it was a good place to grow alcohol which we know from their beakers they were fond of,

This also explains the Raithlin admixture in Germany.

Rathlin admixture in Germany? Isn't it not more case that the Neolithic component in Rathlin samples has more in common with German Neolithic than with Irish Neolithic remains, thence movement would be in other direction?

ffoucart
02-21-2016, 10:57 AM
I'm going to resurrect this thread because of something I just posted over on the Yahoo L21 forum in response to the possibility that some French royalty might have had Jewish paternal lines. Rich may remember that we talked about this four years ago on another forum when we did not know much about the Baltic Cluster other than its identification from STR markers. That post involved a "pseudo-Baltic Cluster" guy from France named Thierry whose markers seemed to indicate an affinity for the Jewish Baltic Cluster, but also indicated some distance separating him from others in that cluster. We know a little more about the Baltic Cluster now (it is identified by SNP A555 and a slew of other phylogenetic equivalent SNPs and is more properly called 251-z11EE in the spreadsheets).
It I remember well, I exchanged with him some times ago.

But they are no links between him and some Royals.

The fact that is name is the same as ancient Counts of Champagne (and some Merovingian kings) is purely coincidental. As the fact he lives at Chateau Thierry.

I think there is some people whose name is Albert, living in Albert, with no links whatsover with the Albert de Luyne. Or people of the name Adhemar living at Montelimar with no links to the Adhemar de Monteil.


I'm
Is there a possibility that if more French were tested, we would find some folks with Z251 DNA very similar to Thierry and 251-z11EE? It is all pretty intriguing, especially the fact that Château-Thierry, where Mr. Thierry's ancestor lived, is situated on the Marne River on the slope of a hill, at the top of which are the ruins of an old castle said to have been built about 720 by the Frankish ruler Charles Martel for his puppet Thierry IV (the Merovingian king Theodoric). It is said that after the legendary siege of Narbonne, Charlemagne, or, according to others, Charles Martel, granted numerous privileges to the Jews of the town in reward for the part they had taken in its surrender. Whether true or not, this story is mentioned by two Hebrew writers: Meïr ben Simeon of Narbonne and Abraham ibn Daud of Toledo.

Most of it is legendary. But what is true is that the social situation of Jews in France (and other parts of Western Europe) was pretty good until the XIth century. Some hold public offices, and it can be argumented that some were knighted in the XI or XIIth centuries.

The relation between Christians and Jews were good enough to eat together for Shabath, and to some bishop to defend intermarriage (so some occured, because you don't have to defend something, if this thing never happens).

The situation changed in the XIth century with the Crusades and the Reconquista, as Jews were in contact with Muslims, and sometimes seen as traitors (slaves traders were mostly Jews).

Forced conversions happened, but most of the times, most of Jewish communities disappeared, either because they were not numerous enough to preserve their tradition, or they flew away to concentrate in specific aeras.

I think that most isolated Jews, or from mixed ancestries (not always seen as Jew by other Jewish communities) simply assimilated in the main stream Christian society.

Rulers (kings or bishop) did sometimes having a politics of politics of assimilating Jews, as they give money in exchange of conversion (you can found many rents paid in the archives).

So, even if this part of History is mysterious (we don't know how many Jews lived in Europe, how many converted, how many keep their faith), it's clear that many of them simply integrated the main stream society.

But there is also some Christians who converted to Judaism, as the ill famed clerk Baldo (who apparently sold his pilmigrage compagnions as slaves and flew away to Muslim Spain).

rms2
02-21-2016, 12:21 PM
Rathlin admixture in Germany? Isn't it not more case that the Neolithic component in Rathlin samples has more in common with German Neolithic than with Irish Neolithic remains, thence movement would be in other direction?

Wasn't it that the Rathlin remains resembled German Bell Beaker, both sets having a sizable steppe component?

rms2
02-21-2016, 12:31 PM
I dont think this is right, I am finding 35% L21 in Alsace, almost as much as Brittany and Normandy. Presumably on the other side of the Rhine it is the same, though I am unable to find helpful German data.

That's odd, because Busby's sample population from Alsace (N=80) was just 5% L21, and sample populations from nearby in Germany had similar frequencies.



It is fairly clear given the [presence of unique early L21 subclades in the area that the R1b Beaker folk sailed up the Rhine from SW England or Brittany, bypassed the marshy lowlands and set up a settlement. As they were normally chasing resources it is unclear what they were doing there, possibly they already knew it was a good place to grow alcohol which we know from their beakers they were fond of,

This also explains the Raithlin admixture in Germany.

As far as I know, there is no evidence that Bell Beaker people expanded out of what is now SW England, "sailed up the Rhine and set up a settlement". Whether Rhenish Bell Beaker can be attributed to Beaker settlers from Brittany is another matter, but there are enough differences between Rhenish and Breton Bell Beaker to render that doubtful.

The three Bronze Age Rathlin men resembled German Bell Beaker and were later than German Bell Beaker. Like German Bell Beaker, they carried a sizable steppe component, and that did not come from SW England or Brittany.

Tomenable
02-21-2016, 01:29 PM
This also explains the Raithlin admixture in Germany.

The hotspot of Rathlin admixture in Germany is Thuringia (it is also the hotspot of I2a2-M223 frequency and the low spot of R1b-U106 frequency):

http://s14.postimg.org/ilmb0axz5/Th_ringen.png

http://s23.postimg.org/3th2vswu3/Turyngia.png

Based on:

Map from the recent study on Irish Neolithic and Bronze Age (http://s23.postimg.org/biopv521n/image.png)

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-S21

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#I2b

=========================

Thuringia (Thüringen):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg/190px-Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg.png

rms2
02-21-2016, 01:34 PM
The hotspot of Rathlin admixture in Germany is Thuringia (it is also the hotspot of I2a2-M223 frequency and the low spot of R1b-U106 frequency):

http://s23.postimg.org/3th2vswu3/Turyngia.png

I know you did not mean this, but using the phrase "Rathlin admixture in Germany" makes it sound as if you think Bronze Age men from Rathlin Island went to Germany and mixed with the people there, when it is simply a case of the Rathlin Island men resembling German Bell Beaker that predates them. That makes a lot of difference, since the movement of Bell Beaker was from the Continent to the Isles and not the other way around.

Also I cannot make that graphic any bigger so that I can really see it well. [Update: Thanks for adding the link to the larger version.]

Tomenable
02-21-2016, 01:39 PM
I know you did not mean this, but using the phrase "Rathlin admixture in Germany" makes it sound as if you think Bronze Age men from Rathlin Island went to Germany and mixed with the people there, when it is simply a case of the Rathlin Island men resembling German Bell Beaker that predates them. That makes a lot of difference, since the movement of Bell Beaker was from the Continent to the Isles and not the other way around.

I used this term because it was used by other users before me. However, just because Bell Beakers expanded from Germany to the Isles doesn't yet mean that there were no any back-migrations later on. But indeed - it could be the case that the movement was just one-way from Central Europe to Ireland and later on Thuringia became a refuge where that admixture survived better than in neighbouring areas.

What we observe is that Thuringians are much more closely related to Bronze Age Irish, than other Germans.

rms2
02-21-2016, 01:43 PM
What's the point you are making with the comment about I-M223 frequency? I could see it if the Rathlin Bronze Age men or if even one of the Bell Beaker men thus far were I-M223; otherwise, you'll need to explain.

rms2
02-21-2016, 01:47 PM
I used this term because it was used by other users before me. However, just because Bell Beakers expanded from Germany to the Isles doesn't yet mean that there were no any back-migrations later on. But indeed - it could be the case that the movement was just one-way from Central Europe to Ireland and later on Thuringia became a refuge where that admixture survived better than in neighbouring areas.

What we observe is that Thuringians are much more closely related to Bronze Age Irish, than other Germans.

As far as I know, there is no evidence of any significant movement of Bell Beaker or Food Vessel people from Bronze Age Britain into Germany. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that Bell Beaker went from the Continent to the Isles and not the other way around.

It is simply an error to turn the resemblance of the Rathlin Island men to German Bell Beaker on its head and refer to it as "Rathlin admixture in Germany". Why not go even further and call the steppe component in the Rathlin men "Rathlin admixture in south Russia"?

Tomenable
02-21-2016, 01:51 PM
Why not go even further and call the steppe component in the Rathlin men "Rathlin admixture in south Russia"?

Because the map posted above does not show any significant resemblance of south Russia peoples to Rathlin genomes.

What it shows is that modern Thuringians are closely related to Bronze Age Irish (as well as to modern Insular Celts).

Please note that even South-Eastern English people are less closely related to Rathlin guys, than are Thuringians.


What's the point you are making with the comment about I-M223 frequency?

Correlation between high frequency of I-M223, low frequency of R1b-S21 and high degree of resemblance to BA Rathlin.

All three maps show that there is something special about Thuringians when comparing them to other Germans.

rms2
02-21-2016, 01:57 PM
Because the map posted above does not show any significant resemblance of south Russia to Rathlin genomes.

You are missing the point. The German/Rathlin resemblance points from German Bell Beaker in the mid 3rd millennium BC to Irish Bell Beaker/Food Vessel in the late 3rd millennium and mid 2nd millennium BC. The direction of movement in both space and time is FROM the Continent TO the Isles and not the other way around.

Referring to that resemblance as "Rathlin admixture in Germany" is as wrongheaded and backwards as referring to the steppe component in Rathlin as "Rathlin admixture in south Russia".

Besides, we're not really talking about admixture. We're talking about descent.

Tomenable
02-21-2016, 01:57 PM
I could see it if the Rathlin Bronze Age men or if even one of the Bell Beaker men thus far were I-M223

One of the Yamnaya men was I-M223, so probably some of the Bell Beaker men were too (considering that they had Yamna ancestry).

That Yamnaya man with a downstream subclade of I-M223 was Ulan IV, kurgan 4, grave 8 [sample RISE552].


You are missing the point. The German/Rathlin resemblance points from German Bell Beaker in the mid 3rd millennium BC

There is no "German/Rathlin resemblance" - there is "Thuringian/Rathlin resemblance". So it can point from Thuringian Bell Beaker.


Referring to that resemblance as "Rathlin admixture in Germany"

Call it Ancient Thuringian admixture in the Bronze Age Rathlin Island, if you want.

The point is that this ancestry survived better in Thuringia than around it. Whether because ancestors of Rathlin men came from Thuringia, or because continental relatives of Rathlin men were displaced by later immigrants in other areas of Central Europe, except for Thuringia.

It could be also reinforced by a back-migration.

Tomenable
02-21-2016, 02:07 PM
The rest of Germany (except for Thuringia) does not resemble Rathlin genomes any more, than - for example - France does.

rms2
02-21-2016, 02:12 PM
Some of the Bell Beaker men could have been I-M223. I expect I2a to turn up in a lot of ancient European cultures, given the fact that it has been present in Europe since at least the Mesolithic period. But thus far none of the Bell Beaker remains, including the Rathlin Island men, has tested I2a.

I think the resemblance of the Rathlin Island men to German Bell Beaker is far more significant than their relatively greater resemblance to modern Thuringians than to other modern continentals.

Tomenable
02-21-2016, 02:17 PM
As for I2a2a-M223:

The oldest sample found so far is from Megalithic Spain (I2a2a1b2 from La Mina). Then in Copper Age Spain (El Portalón, El Mirador, Matojo) there are three samples of I2a2a, one of I2a2a2 and one of I2a2a1. From the Vatya culture and from Lánycsók Csata-alja in Hungary there is one I2a2a, one I2a2a1 and one I2a2a1a2a2. From Yamnaya/Catacomb in Russia there is one I2a2a1b1b2.

In total at least 10 prehistoric samples of I-M223 known so far, in areas from Spain to Russia.


I think the resemblance of the Rathlin Island men to German Bell Beaker is far more significant than their relatively greater resemblance to modern Thuringians than to other modern continentals.

Far more significant for whom ??? For Bronze Age Rathlin Islanders, or for modern Thuringians ???

Modern Thuringians clearly have something unique in their genetics if compared to surrounding groups.

rms2
02-21-2016, 02:22 PM
One of the Yamnaya men was I-M223, so probably some of the Bell Beaker men were too (considering that they had Yamna ancestry) . . .



By far and away most of the Yamnaya men have tested R1b-L23 and so have most of the Bell Beaker men, including those from Rathlin Island. So it doesn't seem likely that I-M223 was the source of the Yamnaya-like ancestry in Bell Beaker or that Yamnaya was the source of the I-M223 in Thuringia. Probably most if not all the I-M223 in Thuringia descends from WHGs who were native to western Europe.

Besides, I-M223 accounts for only about 10% of the y-dna in modern Thuringia anyway. What makes up the other 90%?

Tomenable
02-21-2016, 02:23 PM
By far and away most of the Yamnaya men have tested R1b-L23

No, by far the vast majority of the Yamnaya men have tested R1b-Z2103.


What makes up the other 90%?

Various haplogroups. But for example R1b-U106 is uncommon in Thuringia.


Probably most if not all the I-M223 in Thuringia descends from WHGs who were native to that region.

There was not a single I-M223 in WHG samples so far - see my thread about Y-DNA discontinuities:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5988-Discontinuities-in-Y-DNA-in-Europe-s-prehistory&p=130804&viewfull=1#post130804

The oldest known so far I-M223 is from Neolithic Iberia, not from WHG.

Already ENF in Anatolia had some I, so we can't say for sure, that they absorbed all of it in Europe.

rms2
02-21-2016, 02:32 PM
. . .

Far more significant for whom ??? For Bronze Age Rathlin Islanders, or for modern Thuringians ???

The Rathlin resemblance to German Bell Beaker is far more significant for understanding the source of Bell Beaker in the Isles, since the Rathlin Island men lived and died during the Bronze Age and belonged to a culture immediately derived from Bell Beaker.

rms2
02-21-2016, 02:43 PM
No, by far the vast majority of the Yamnaya men have tested R1b-Z2103.

Which is derived for R1b-L23. I was referring to the common y-dna element in Yamnaya and Bell Beaker thus far.

If you are going to be picky and insist on terminal SNPs, you should have referred to the single I sample from Yamnaya as I-L699 rather than I-M223.




Various haplogroups. But for example R1b-U106 is uncommon in Thuringia.

It's actually about as common as I-M223 there. Look at the frequency bars to the left of those maps.




There was not a single I-M223 in WHG samples so far - see my thread about Y-DNA discontinuities:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5988-Discontinuities-in-Y-DNA-in-Europe-s-prehistory&p=130804&viewfull=1#post130804

The oldest known so far I-M223 is from Neolithic Iberia, not from WHG.

Already ENF in Anatolia had some I, so we can't say for sure, that they absorbed all of it in Europe.

But there has been plenty of I2 in Mesolithic Europe, and, as you said, I-M223 shows up in Neolithic Iberia (~3900-3600 BC), in fact, in a form already derived for a number of SNPs downstream of M223. That means at the very least it predates the arrival of the Indo-Europeans in western Europe and was already far to the west in Spain before Yamnaya began pushing west of the Dniester. So it is very likely the I-M223 in central and western Europe has its source not in Yamnaya but in WHGs already long established there.

Tomenable
02-21-2016, 03:21 PM
So it is very likely the I-M223 in central and western Europe has its source not in Yamnaya but in WHGs already long established there.

Yamnaya themselves already had some WHG admixture (just as it was also in case of Neolithic farmers in Anatolia) - see here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6197-Possible-fertile-crescent-admixture-in-South-Europe&p=132997&viewfull=1#post132997

According to user Tolan, Yamnaya were a mix of EHG, CHG and WHG, but there were probably regional differences in proportions.

Bell Beakers were 2/5 Yamnaya-derived and Corded Ware 2/3 Yamnaya-derived according to Tolan, but from different Yamnaya groups:


If one takes only the part of Yamnaya in CW (59.7%) and BB (41.7%):
CHG: 43 vs. 36
WHG: 9 vs 15
EHG: 40 vs. 44

So that group of Yamnaya which was ancestral to 40% of Bell Beaker genome, had significantly more WHG than that ancestral to CW.

If some groups of Yamnaya were between 9% and 15% WHG-admixed already before emigrating from the steppe, it is reasonable to assume that they carried some subclades of I2 already before their expansion westward. And we have found a confirmation of this already.

If you check my thread "Discontinuities in Y-DNA...", you will see that I2 lineages survived Indo-Europeization much better than most of Neolithic lineages (which suggests that some I2 subclades were part of the Indo-European onslaught, while ENF lineages were not):

You see - G2a was almost annihilated, while frequencies of I2 remained unaffected by Indo-European expansion:

http://s22.postimg.org/gbhqh1jn5/Wykres.png

PS: the graph above does not include several samples of Y-DNA, which have been published already after I made it.

I will update it later, adding new ancient samples.

rms2
02-21-2016, 03:29 PM
It's going to be hard to link any central and western European I2 to Yamnaya, given that I2 was already well established there long before Yamnaya arrived. Maybe if one could identify a Yamnaya-specific I2 clade that would be possible.

Like I said, some Bell Beaker men might turn out to have been I2. Why not? I2 had already been in Europe since at least the Mesolithic. Naturally it's going to turn up in various European cultures.

But there doesn't seem to be much if any justification for looking to I-M223 to provide a connection between those Rathlin men and central Germany.

IMHO additional Bell Beaker remains tested in the coming months and years will be as they have been, overwhelmingly R1b and probably almost all R1b-P312. No doubt some other y haplogroups will pop up from time to time as more sets of remains are tested. I think the same will be true of Yamnaya: its remains will be mostly R1b-L23 (and some L51 and probably P312 will turn up in western Yamnaya).

Tomenable
02-21-2016, 03:36 PM
Maybe if one could identify a Yamnaya-specific I2 clade that would be possible.

I2a2a1b1b2 seems to be Yamnaya specific at this point.

And I2c (xI2c2) seems Anatolian ENF specific for now.

rms2
02-21-2016, 03:42 PM
I2a2a1b1b2 seems to be Yamnaya specific at this point . . .

Time and more ancient y-dna test results will tell.

seferhabahir
02-21-2016, 06:55 PM
It I remember well, I exchanged with him some times ago.

But they are no links between him and some Royals.

The fact that is name is the same as ancient Counts of Champagne (and some Merovingian kings) is purely coincidental. As the fact he lives at Chateau Thierry.

I think there is some people whose name is Albert, living in Albert, with no links whatsover with the Albert de Luyne. Or people of the name Adhemar living at Montelimar with no links to the Adhemar de Monteil.

Most of it is legendary. But what is true is that the social situation of Jews in France (and other parts of Western Europe) was pretty good until the XIth century. Some hold public offices, and it can be argumented that some were knighted in the XI or XIIth centuries.

Do you mean that you have actually had conversations with Thierry in France? His result is sort of a French missing link between the 4000 year gap between British Isles FGC11986 group and the A555 Jewish group, and the only test result that seems intermediary between these groups. I would willingly help buy a Big Y for this individual if he were willing to submit DNA samples to FTDNA (or FGC) to help better define the relationship.

Reith
02-23-2016, 04:14 PM
I dont think this is right, I am finding 35% L21 in Alsace, almost as much as Brittany and Normandy. Presumably on the other side of the Rhine it is the same, though I am unable to find helpful German data.

It is fairly clear given the [presence of unique early L21 subclades in the area that the R1b Beaker folk sailed up the Rhine from SW England or Brittany, bypassed the marshy lowlands and set up a settlement. As they were normally chasing resources it is unclear what they were doing there, possibly they already knew it was a good place to grow alcohol which we know from their beakers they were fond of,

This also explains the Raithlin admixture in Germany.

I think in time we will see more L-21 coming from the Rhine area.

To confuse things even more, there were huge Saxon settlements in Northern Gaul. Think of them as the original "north men" before the Norse showed up and colonized Normandy. Some Saxons even adopted Breton hair styles.

I think the days of saying a tribe was all one haplogroup is over. Just like there could be I in bell beakers, people assimilated each other over hundreds of years.

rms2
02-23-2016, 04:26 PM
. . .

I think the days of saying a tribe was all one haplogroup is over . . .

When did those days ever begin?

On the other hand, one might find a single tribe that was all one y haplogroup, but entire cultures and the big tribal confederacies of the Migration Period were another story.

ffoucart
02-23-2016, 07:01 PM
Do you mean that you have actually had conversations with Thierry in France? His result is sort of a French missing link between the 4000 year gap between British Isles FGC11986 group and the A555 Jewish group, and the only test result that seems intermediary between these groups. I would willingly help buy a Big Y for this individual if he were willing to submit DNA samples to FTDNA (or FGC) to help better define the relationship.
Yes. I think it was on the 23andme forum, months or perhaps years ago. But we never shared our accounts so I know nothing more.
I can try to find the thread, but 23andme is such a mess these days. And the forum is far less active than before.

kevinduffy
02-23-2016, 07:25 PM
I think the days of saying a tribe was all one haplogroup is over.

I think it all depends on the size of the tribe and its contacts with other tribes.

ffoucart
02-24-2016, 01:36 AM
Sadly, the search engine doesn't work anymore on 23andme for the forum. So ancient threads, if not erased, must be searched page by page. I'm already at the page 25 of the R1b1b2 with no result.

Reith
02-24-2016, 02:08 AM
When did those days ever begin?

On the other hand, one might find a single tribe that was all one y haplogroup, but entire cultures and the big tribal confederacies of the Migration Period were another story.

Agree, culture would be more appropriate than tribe

Theconqueror
03-30-2016, 08:40 PM
These are neat maps. Are you able to produce thsi sort of maps for R1B-DF99? There is only a handful of DF99 and there is strong presence in Germany, and it seemed to originated in the Baltic area. For some reason, DF99 didn't follow the path of the others under P-312 and remains in central euirope. DF99 is also found in scandinavia, normandy, and the British isles. Many names seems norman in origin as well.


Yes, I think that

But i don't think that!

Effectively, I do maps for other haplogroups.
For the north, I find a strong presence DF27! Is this a bug or it's known?

1288
1289
1290

Heber
07-31-2016, 07:40 PM
31. JULY 2016. 600 Merovingian graves found near the Somme.
Merovingian burial ground in picardie monchy-lagache near Amiens

Huge Merovingian Cemetery Discovered Near Somme

Recently a very large Merovingian cemetery was discovered. With more than 600 graves the medieval archaeologists from INRAP are excited.

Detail of the excavation at Monchy-Lagache. Source: INRAP

This summer, as part of the construction of a school in the village of Monchy-Lagache east of Amiens in Somme, an archaeological evaluation has – as is required by French law – been carried out . Huge was the amazement, when the archaeologists found a unique cemetery.

Such surveys involve digging trenches 2 m x 2 m and 0,5 cm deep every fifteen meters. The result was the discovery of a huge and unique cemetery, says Richard Rougier, who is scientific and technical deputy director at Inrap-in Picardie, and attached to the CNRS-University of Lille archeology laboratory in Villeneuve-d’Asq. Expected finds will be necklaces and bracelets in women’s graves and scramaxes (throwing axes) in male graves,” says Pascal Depaepe, who is Interregional Director at Inrap in Northern Picardy

Until now four skeletons have been removed for further analysis and the trenches have been closed again. The archaeologists are waiting for a decision from the Regional Direction of Cultural Affairs (DRAC) Amiens, which will decide in late August or early September whether to carry out further excavations.
The trenches cover app. 12% of the surface and the archaeologists estimate that there are about 6-800 graves waiting to be excavated. Given the number of skeletons and the presence of children’s graves, it is probably holding the remains of the population of an entire village. The bodies found are placed at about 1.50 meters underground (which is relatively deep), and out of reach of conventional metal detectors. The discovery confirms that Monchy-Lagache was probably a major Gallo-Roman as well as Merovingian center (AD 400 -600).

The fact that the cemetery does not show signs of ancient or modern looting excites the archaeologists immensely. Neither does there seem to have been any destruction wrought by fighting or shelling during WW1, even though the site is located 14 km south of Peronne.

http://www.medievalhistories.com/merovingian-cemetery-discovered-near-somme/

Une immense nécropole mérovingienne découverte dans la Somme

http://www.la-croix.com/France/Une-immense-necropole-merovingienne-decouverte-dans-la-Somme-2016-07-29-1200779073

MitchellSince1893
07-31-2016, 11:52 PM
I know this is a L21 thread but the 600 Merovingian graves found near the Somme in Picardie near Amiens is prime real estate for finding U152.

Guidon33
09-12-2016, 03:00 PM
Your map is bery interesting. Have you a map for DF13 or the best would be a map for FGC5594. Thanks