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TheAnatolian
02-04-2020, 05:11 AM
I recently took a Y-111 DNA test with FTDNA in order to find out which haplogroup that I belonged to as I have a strong interest in history and knowledge of my ancestors. My paternal side is ethnic Zaza from Dersim, they are an Indo-Iranian language speaking people from South-Eastern Anatolia, similar to Kurds and Iranic people from the Caspian Sea. I knew that I was R1a because my brother had already done a test with 23andme but it wasn't a very deep test, so I decided to do a more in-depth y-DNA test with FTDNA. Initially, I assumed that our subclade would have been R-Z93 like the majority of Indo-Iranian speakers who are R1a. However, to my great surprise, when my results arrived I discovered that I was a part of a rare and somewhat mysterious subclade of R1a called YP5018.

The main cluster of the subclade that I belong covers South-Eastern Anatolia, Northern Mesopotamia, and South Caucuses region with some outliers in Yemen, Qatar, and UAE. The people who have tested positive for YP5018 have been predominantly other Zaza people from the Dersim region, followed by Kurds from Iraq, Armenians, Georgians, Chechnians, Chaldeans, and Arabs from Yemen, Qatar, UAE. The Yemeni samples that I mentioned cluster closest to Zaza samples from Dersim. Our theory is that around 300-600 years ago one of my great, great, grand... uncles migrated to Yemen and settled there mixing with the local population, probably during the Ayyubid or Ottoman era. This explains why the Yemeni YP5018s are located so far from the main cluster in Northern Mesopotamia, South-Eastern Anatolia, and Caucuses region and match closest to people from Dersim rather than Arab samples in Iraq, Qatar, and UAE.

36210

It has been proposed that haplogroup R1a (R-M420) originated somewhere in Southern Siberia at around 18,000 years ago and that YP4141 (our parent subclade) broke away from it some 13,000 years ago and formed a separate branch from the main R-M417 which is associated with the expansion of Indo-European languages during the Bronze Age, especially in Eastern Europe.

We also have a sister subclade, namely YP4131, which broke away from our parent subclade YP4141 and today forms its main cluster on the other side of Europe in Ireland, Scottland, and England of all places. That group also has a number of outliers in Southern Italy, Kuwait, Iran, and India.

36211

There are a few theories about the origins of our subclade but due to a lack of archeological evidence and rarity of our group, it's difficult to prove one theory over the other. One theory is that YP4141 is an archaic branch that originated locally in the Zagros mountains of Iran and which migrated into Europe during the Neolithic period via the Caucuses. Another theory is that YP4141 originated in Europe and then arrived in the Near East during the Indo-European expansion of the Bronze Age but became extinct in Europe hence a lack of samples. The third theory is that YP4141 originated in Southern Siberia and our particular subclade YP5018 migrated to the Near East while YP4131 migrated to the British Isles.

I hope that one day scientists stop ignoring our weird and enigmatic group and put some effort into trying to figure out how we fit into the R1a puzzle. Because at the moment it seems like it's anyone's guess.

What are your theories? I would love to hear everyone's opinions on this frustratingly mysterious subclade of R1a.

Thanks!

ADW_1981
02-07-2020, 05:53 PM
I recently took a Y-111 DNA test with FTDNA in order to find out which haplogroup that I belonged to as I have a strong interest in history and knowledge of my ancestors. My paternal side is ethnic Zaza from Dersim, they are an Indo-Iranian language speaking people from South-Eastern Anatolia, similar to Kurds and Iranic people from the Caspian Sea. I knew that I was R1a because my brother had already done a test with 23andme but it wasn't a very deep test, so I decided to do a more in-depth y-DNA test with FTDNA. Initially, I assumed that our subclade would have been R-Z93 like the majority of Indo-Iranian speakers who are R1a. However, to my great surprise, when my results arrived I discovered that I was a part of a rare and somewhat mysterious subclade of R1a called YP5018.

The main cluster of the subclade that I belong covers South-Eastern Anatolia, Northern Mesopotamia, and South Caucuses region with some outliers in Yemen, Qatar, and UAE. The people who have tested positive for YP5018 have been predominantly other Zaza people from the Dersim region, followed by Kurds from Iraq, Armenians, Georgians, Chechnians, Chaldeans, and Arabs from Yemen, Qatar, UAE. The Yemeni samples that I mentioned cluster closest to Zaza samples from Dersim. Our theory is that around 300-600 years ago one of my great, great, grand... uncles migrated to Yemen and settled there mixing with the local population, probably during the Ayyubid or Ottoman era. This explains why the Yemeni YP5018s are located so far from the main cluster in Northern Mesopotamia, South-Eastern Anatolia, and Caucuses region and match closest to people from Dersim rather than Arab samples in Iraq, Qatar, and UAE.

36210

It has been proposed that haplogroup R1a (R-M420) originated somewhere in Southern Siberia at around 18,000 years ago and that YP4141 (our parent subclade) broke away from it some 13,000 years ago and formed a separate branch from the main R-M417 which is associated with the expansion of Indo-European languages during the Bronze Age, especially in Eastern Europe.

We also have a sister subclade, namely YP4131, which broke away from our parent subclade YP4141 and today forms its main cluster on the other side of Europe in Ireland, Scottland, and England of all places. That group also has a number of outliers in Southern Italy, Kuwait, Iran, and India.

36211

There are a few theories about the origins of our subclade but due to a lack of archeological evidence and rarity of our group, it's difficult to prove one theory over the other. One theory is that YP4141 is an archaic branch that originated locally in the Zagros mountains of Iran and which migrated into Europe during the Neolithic period via the Caucuses. Another theory is that YP4141 originated in Europe and then arrived in the Near East during the Indo-European expansion of the Bronze Age but became extinct in Europe hence a lack of samples. The third theory is that YP4141 originated in Southern Siberia and our particular subclade YP5018 migrated to the Near East while YP4131 migrated to the British Isles.

I hope that one day scientists stop ignoring our weird and enigmatic group and put some effort into trying to figure out how we fit into the R1a puzzle. Because at the moment it seems like it's anyone's guess.

What are your theories? I would love to hear everyone's opinions on this frustratingly mysterious subclade of R1a.

Thanks!

I have also been curious about this cluster over the years but haven't looked into it very deeply. What's the age of the split between the western European branch and yours? That should be a supporting factor if the branch in western Europe is a recent immigrant to the area. I just took a look at Yfull for YP4131, and it appears that they are somewhat recent immigrants to the area, descended from YP4132 who also seems West Asian. I'd guess that the Europeans descend from someone absorbed in the Roman Empire and a surviving branch moved north.

TheAnatolian
02-08-2020, 02:39 AM
According to Y-Full, R1a-YP5018 and R1a-YP4132 formed 12,000 years ago, and R1a-YP4131 in the British Isles formed 4,300 years ago but I'm sceptical about how accurate those figure are.

What I do know is that there are meant to be two samples of R1a-YP4141 in the archeological record. One sample form Poland in the medieval period and another Bronze Age Eastern "Kazakh" sample from Aktogay (1618-1513 calBCE) which was R1a-YP4141 and positive to some SNPs on the YP4132 level.

If R1a-YP4141 was in Bronze Age Khazakistan, it must have been in Eastern Europe as well. I'm thinking that the the other R1a-YP4132 samples in Iran, India and Kuwait arrived there during the Bronze Age from Eastern Europe via Central Asia with R1a-Z93. Unfortunately that doesn't explain how or when my subclade R1a-YP5018 arrived there. Unless it also arrived at the same time as it's sister clade from Eastern Europe via Central Asia. And as far as I know, unlike R1a-YP4132, we don't have any examples for R1a-YP5018 in the archeological record.

levantino II
02-08-2020, 05:46 PM
Hello Anatolian

I must ask you how unique YP5018 is on 17 markers. I found one haplotype who could be YP5018, but I'm not shore if it can be mistaken for some other haplogroup.

393-390-19-391-385ab-439-389I-391-389II-458-437-448-GATA H4-456-438-635
13-23-15-11-12/12-12-13-13-30-17-15-19-11-15-11-23

It's from the paper "Population genetics for 17 Y-STR loci in Hui ethnic minority from Liaoning Province, Northeast China"

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314227645_Population_genetics_for_17_Y-STR_loci_in_Hui_ethnic_minority_from_Liaoning_Prov ince_Northeast_China

He is in line 209 (HT204) in Table S1

It looks like YP5018 to me, but I don't know much about value diversity out of J1 haplogroup. If I make mistake, sorry

TheAnatolian
02-08-2020, 11:58 PM
Hello Lavantino,

That is very, very interesting.
I'll be honest, I'm not an expert by any means but the first 8 markers are almost identical. After that it starts looking very different.. You should really show this to an expert and see what they have to say about it.

Hui sample
13-23-15-11-12/12-12-13-13-30-17-15-19-11-15-11-23

R1a-YP5018 sample
13-23-15-11-12/12-12-12-12-13-13-30-16-9/9-11-12-26

TheAnatolian
02-10-2020, 06:42 AM
Is there anyone on here who can assist me to figure out how these samples relate to one another? I.e if there is one Basal sample that split off first. Is it even possible with the information below?
Just by looking at the numbers, I can roughly see that the two Turkey samples and the Yemeni sample are the closest to each other and form their own cluster. The Chechen 1 sample is the most distant from all other samples and Qatar seems to be somewhat evenly distant to all the others and Georgia looks like it might have some type of relationship with Qatar, but I am not sure how.

If there are any mathematical geniuses on here, I would greatly appreciate your assistance in shedding some light on how this subclade moved around and evolved. Thanks!

Turkey 1 13 23 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12-12-13-17 11 10 19-23 15 16 18 17 34-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 14 12 27 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 12 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 15 25 15 12 15 27 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 11 11
Turkey 2 13 23 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 32 18 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12-12-16-17 11 10 19-23 15 16 20 17 35-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 14 12 26 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 12 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 15 25 15 12 15 27 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 11 11
Yemen 13 23 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12-12-16-17 11 10 19-23 15 17 18 17 34-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 14 12 27 24 19 12 12 12 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 13 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 15 25 15 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 12 11
Qatar 13 23 17 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 32 12-12-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 17 19 16 34-37 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 14 12 27 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 11 9 18 15 17 15 26 15 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 15 17 9 11 11
Georgia 2 13 24 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-9 11 12 25 15 0 31 12-12-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 17 18 18 35-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 15 12 12 13 11 12 12 13 34 15 9 14 12 26 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 14 24 13 11 9 18 15 19 16 26 15 12 15 26 12 23 18 10 15 17 9 11 11
Chechen 1 13 23 15 10 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 12 25 15 19 29 12-13-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 15 36-36 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 21-22 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 37 15 9 14 12 26 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 13 23 13 11 9 17 15 17 15 25 15 12 15 25 12 23 18 11 15 17 9 12 11

levantino II
02-10-2020, 07:07 AM
It's hard to say what branches are older and what are younger just on the value of the markers, especially when all members of the clade had common ancestor relatively recently. According to YFull common ancestor for four members of the YP5018 is 2700 years before present. STR homogenity also support such estimation

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP5018/

About previous post: scientists in scientific papers mostly use just 17 markers of first 37 markers which use FTDNA. It'a a little bit lame, good for determination of the haplogroup (but not always) and for determination of the branch if common ancestor is older than 2000-3000 years. I wanted to answer but it would take a little bit more time and non stop checking of english:)

Anyway I think that Hui man also belong to YP5018. I didn't success to find similar haplotypes in some other branches especially R1a and R1b

TheAnatolian
02-10-2020, 10:53 AM
I just did some research on the Hui, as I hadn't heard of them before reading your post. At first I thought it was strange that YP5018 would exist in an ethnic group from China don't speak a Turkic language like the Uyghurs but speak Mandarin and have mixed thoroughly with Han Chinese. But then I learnt that the Hui are originally descended from merchants, soldiers and craftsmen who came to China from Islamic Persia and Central Asia during the 7th-13th centuries. If they came from Iran think it's very plausible that it is indeed YP5018. Well-done in spotting it!

TheAnatolian
03-02-2020, 03:52 AM
A couple of people on molgen have claimed that they have discovered ancient samples that could be R-yp4141 from Meolithic Ukraine and Bronze Age Kazakhstan. I was able to find the data for the two samples in the European Nucleotide Archives with the help of xenus. Is there anyone here who has the capabilities and interest in analysing these two samples to verify that they are yp4141 > pre yp5018 as claimed by Russian posters on Molgen?

Alternatively, if anyone has any advice on how I can veriy these claims myself I would be eternally greatful. Please see the molgen posts and sample data links below.

I5876 Dereivka I Ukraine_Mesolithic 7040-6703 calBCE R1a
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg473675
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB22652

I4773 Aktogai_MLBA Kazakhstan 1618-1513 calBCE (3290±20 BP, PSUAMS-2607)
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=12152.30
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS3411787

Ilgar
05-15-2020, 06:00 PM
Those English people has very low just 950 TMRCA so we can just consider them one lineage. There should be some turkic people in central asia given this subclade was present there in modern Kazakstan (ancient dna bronze age). And kurdish alevi baxtiyari tribe of turkmen origin has this subclade too. Still enigma though.

TheAnatolian
06-28-2020, 03:04 AM
It is true that there are two sister branches in Eastern Anatolia, one (R-FT256473) belonging to Kirmancki speaking Alevi people from Hozat, Dersim, and the other branch (R-FT333533) from Divigri & Erzincan regions who belong to Turkish or Turkmen Alevis. These two branches are downstream from a common branch (R-BY73972) but we are yet to find a member of this ghost branch so we do not know it's origin yet. Although it is downstream from R-S3738 which is found in Yemen so I think it is safe to say that it will be found somewhere in the Middle East.

I myself belong to the Bextiyari tribe (R-FT256473) that you are speaking of. I have read the claims that the Alevi Baxtiyari tribe is of Turkmen origin. I'm not about to rule anything out just yet but I don't see any conclusive evidence for it. Firstly, if you look at the etymology of the word Bahtiyar itself, it is an Iranic word, not Turkic one. Secondly, I and the other Alevi Kirmaci and Turkmens have a distant match from a Sunni Kurd from Suleimaniya in the Kurdistan region of Iraq. Unfortunately, he has only done Y-12 test so we cannot read much into it but we're planning on helping him upgrade his kit so we can see just how closely or distantly he is related to us. If he is from that (R-BY73972) branch then I think that would be good evidence to suggest that the Bextiyari tribe is of a Kurdish origin and not a Turkmen.

38183

I agree that R-YP4141>R-YP4132 could have arrived to India, Iran, and the general Middle East through Kazakhstan but if it did, it would have done so with the Indo-Iranian speakers of the Andronovo Culture just as R-Z93>Z94 did during the Bronze Age.

As for R-YP5018, unfortunately, unlike its sister clade R-YP4132 we are yet to discover R-YP5018 in Europe or on the Eurasian Steppe so we cannot definitively say that both haplogroups R-YP5018 and R-YP4132 arrived together. But I can tell just by looking at the modern samples of R-YP5018 that it can be found in a multitude of ethnic and religious groups from Yemen int Southern Arabia to Chechniya and Georgia so it must have present in the region for many thousands of years. I doubt it very much that it arrived with Turkic tribes in the Middle Ages.

DMXX
06-28-2020, 04:09 AM
Firstly, if you look at the etymology of the word Bahtiyar itself, it is an Iranic word, not Turkic one.

Don't intend to nitpick, but due to the formative cultural synergism between the Medieval Turkic and Iranic-speaking world in Central Asia, I don't think the ultimate origin of the name "Baxtiyar" tells us much about the tribe's origins. This of course doesn't diminish the rest of your analysis (which looks independent of the etymology of that name).

You are correct - "Baxtiyar" is ultimately of Iranic origin (the root noun, baxt, has an obvious derivation from Indo-Iranian *bagha, compare with Avestan baga, "good fate"; baxt is also one of those "core Iranic" vocab terms that's found in Iranic speakers from Anatolia all the way through to the Pamirs).

One could argue, with equal plausibility, that your particular tribe received it's name via a Turkish intermediary - Much the same as the Danishmend dynasty (whose eponymous ancestor, Danishmend Ghazi, bore a name that's quite obviously Persian).
I've seen some bizarre claims that "Danishmend" was a Turkic name, but the root term dan is either an Iranicised form of the Arabic word for religion deen (the origin of this term is disputed by scholars dispute the multiple Semitic cognates), or is derived from an originally Iranian term related to Avestan daena (which, coincidentally, also translates to religion or faith).
This term is (oddly enough) a contentious one, as the use of "danishmend" has different applications depending on one's culturo-historical familiarity with it (f.ex. Turks recognise it as the name of a Turkish dynasty, Iranians view it as a slightly outdated denominator of vocation, Pakistanis seem use it via Urdu through a reduction of the original definition as an adjective, "intelligent").

TheAnatolian
06-28-2020, 10:34 AM
DMXX -

Yes, you are absoluelty right, we can't completely rule it out but from my experience, the vast majority of Turkic tribes in Anatolia have Turkic names. But yeah, I'm definitely not basing my whole argument on the Iranic origin of the word Baxtiyar.

Your understanding of Iranic language is impressive. I wonder if the Baxt is also derived from the old Iranic word for God, Baga?

DMXX
06-29-2020, 05:12 AM
I wonder if the Baxt is also derived from the old Iranic word for God, Baga?

Not derived, but of the same origin.

Common Indo-Iranian *baghas, from our current reconstructions and based on the multiple connections with other languages (notably proto-Slavic), appeared to have been a multi-purpose word (akin to English "bark" or "mine").
It had three distinct meanings (all of which are shared with proto-Slavic, either directly or through the addition of pre/suffixes) - Portion, fortune/luck and deity.
Both the Avesta and the Rg Veda contain derivatives of *baghas, albeit through slightly differing forms (in the order of the above for Avestan - baxa "portion", bagha "good luck", baxa "non-malignant deity").

Different downstream Indo-Iranian languages have retained at least one derivative of *baghas. In Modern Persian, it's via baxt (luck). In Hindi, it's baht (their currency, ergo, "portion").
As far as I'm aware, only the Slavic languages (bog) and Turkic (beg) have retained the derivation of *baghas that involves deities (in Turkic, as we both know, beg/bey is a traditional title relating to a Lord).

West Iranian-speaking peoples (specifically the Achaemenid Persians and Parthians) did use bagha to refer to God (it's unknown if the Medians did, but it's likely, given the Persians and Parthians had). However, bagha fell out of favour in the Iranian plateau and was replaced by terms such as yazdan (itself an old Indo-Iranian word used in Avestan to mean "divine", yazata) by the Sassanid period. The use of bagh did continue in Sassanid Persia to refer to a Lord, as is the case in the Turkic languages from the Medieval period onwards (and to this day in places like Turkey).

Modern West Iranic languages don't use bagha to refer to God (per the above, their ancestors seemed to have dropped its' use by the Sassanid era). Instead, variants of xodah are used (for Modern Persian and Sorani Kurdish; I believe Kurmanji Kurdish uses xwede).
As with bagha and yazdan, xodah is of Indo-Iranian origins and variants of it were widely used in multiple Iranic languages during the Classical period to denote a "master". The precise etymology of xodah isn't obvious (I've read that it may derive from a cognate of hvadhâta, "self-ruled", but I never found this convincing and there's no consensus I've read from the linguists concerning this). Some other related cognates may be Av. uxdha (a holy prayer).

TheAnatolian
06-29-2020, 12:25 PM
Not derived, but of the same origin.

Common Indo-Iranian *baghas, from our current reconstructions and based on the multiple connections with other languages (notably proto-Slavic), appeared to have been a multi-purpose word (akin to English "bark" or "mine").
It had three distinct meanings (all of which are shared with proto-Slavic, either directly or through the addition of pre/suffixes) - Portion, fortune/luck and deity.
Both the Avesta and the Rg Veda contain derivatives of *baghas, albeit through slightly differing forms (in the order of the above for Avestan - baxa "portion", bagha "good luck", baxa "non-malignant deity").

Different downstream Indo-Iranian languages have retained at least one derivative of *baghas. In Modern Persian, it's via baxt (luck). In Hindi, it's baht (their currency, ergo, "portion").
As far as I'm aware, only the Slavic languages (bog) and Turkic (beg) have retained the derivation of *baghas that involves deities (in Turkic, as we both know, beg/bey is a traditional title relating to a Lord).

West Iranian-speaking peoples (specifically the Achaemenid Persians and Parthians) did use bagha to refer to God (it's unknown if the Medians did, but it's likely, given the Persians and Parthians had). However, bagha fell out of favour in the Iranian plateau and was replaced by terms such as yazdan (itself an old Indo-Iranian word used in Avestan to mean "divine", yazata) by the Sassanid period. The use of bagh did continue in Sassanid Persia to refer to a Lord, as is the case in the Turkic languages from the Medieval period onwards (and to this day in places like Turkey).

Modern West Iranic languages don't use bagha to refer to God (per the above, their ancestors seemed to have dropped its' use by the Sassanid era). Instead, variants of xodah are used (for Modern Persian and Sorani Kurdish; I believe Kurmanji Kurdish uses xwede).
As with bagha and yazdan, xodah is of Indo-Iranian origins and variants of it were widely used in multiple Iranic languages during the Classical period to denote a "master". The precise etymology of xodah isn't obvious (I've read that it may derive from a cognate of hvadhâta, "self-ruled", but I never found this convincing and there's no consensus I've read from the linguists concerning this). Some other related cognates may be Av. uxdha (a holy prayer).

That is fascinating. Thank you for sharing it!

TheAnatolian
07-01-2020, 04:41 AM
By the way, if anyone is interested in this topic I and other members of our subclade have created a Facebook page called 'R-YP4141 & Subclades'.

We are constantly updating the information on there whenever we discover new branches or information relevant to our group. Please feel free to like it and join in the discussion. The link is below.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/573539423259107/