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View Full Version : The origin of the mysterious R1a2a YP4141 > YP5018



TheAnatolian
02-04-2020, 05:35 AM
I recently took a Y-111 DNA test with FTDNA in order to find out which haplogroup that I belonged to as I have a strong interest in history and knowledge of my ancestors. My paternal side is ethnic Zaza from Dersim, they are an Indo-Iranian language speaking people from South-Eastern Anatolia, similar to Kurds and Iranic people from the Caspian Sea. I knew that I was R1a because my brother had already done a test with 23andme but it wasn't a very deep test, so I decided to do a more in-depth y-DNA test with FTDNA. Initially, I assumed that our subclade would have been R-Z93 like the majority of Indo-Iranian speakers who are R1a. However, to my great surprise, when my results arrived I discovered that I was a part of a rare and somewhat mysterious subclade of R1a called YP5018.

The main cluster of the subclade that I belong covers South-Eastern Anatolia, Northern Mesopotamia, and South Caucuses region with some outliers in Yemen, Qatar, and UAE. The people who have tested positive for YP5018 have been predominantly other Zaza people from the Dersim region, followed by Kurds from Iraq, Armenians, Georgians, Chechnians, Chaldeans, and Arabs from Yemen, Qatar, UAE. The Yemeni samples that I mentioned cluster closest to Zaza samples from Dersim. Our theory is that around 300-600 years ago one of my great, great, grand... uncles migrated to Yemen and settled there mixing with the local population, probably during the Ayyubid or Ottoman era. This explains why the Yemeni YP5018s are located so far from the main cluster in Northern Mesopotamia, South-Eastern Anatolia, and Caucuses region and match closest to people from Dersim rather than Arab samples in Iraq, Qatar, and UAE.

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It has been proposed that haplogroup R1a (R-M420) originated somewhere in Southern Siberia at around 18,000 years ago and that YP4141 (our parent subclade) broke away from it some 13,000 years ago and formed a separate branch from the main R-M417 which is associated with the expansion of Indo-European languages during the Bronze Age, especially in Eastern Europe.

We also have a sister subclade, namely YP4131, which broke away from our parent subclade YP4141 and today forms its main cluster on the other side of Europe in Ireland, Scottland, and England of all places. That group also has a number of outliers in Southern Italy, Kuwait, Iran, and India.

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There are a few theories about the origins of our subclade but due to a lack of archeological evidence and rarity of our group, it's difficult to prove one theory over the other. One theory is that YP4141 is an archaic branch that originated locally in the Zagros mountains of Iran and which migrated into Europe during the Neolithic period via the Caucuses. Another theory is that YP4141 originated in Europe and then arrived in the Near East during the Indo-European expansion of the Bronze Age but became extinct in Europe hence a lack of samples. The third theory is that YP4141 originated in Southern Siberia and our particular subclade YP5018 migrated to the Near East while YP4131 migrated to the British Isles.

I hope that one day scientists stop ignoring our weird and enigmatic group and put some effort into trying to figure out how we fit into the R1a puzzle. Because at the moment it seems like it's anyone's guess.

Which theory do you think is the most plausible, and why? I would love to hear everyone's opinions on this frustratingly mysterious subclade of R1a.

Thanks!

RCO
02-04-2020, 03:00 PM
R1a-YP4141 correlates pretty well with other ancient Iranian peoples and haplogroups like J1-FGC6064 in terms of chronology, bifurcations and locations. R1a-YP4141 arrived and merged with the same ancient Y-DNA "J" and mtDNA "HV-H" mating complex forming the CHG-Iranian-Rakhigarhi Mesolithic continuum in the anastomosis of Pre-Proto-Indo-European languages and cultures.

Power77
02-05-2020, 07:45 AM
It seems to me that R1a-YP4141 spread to West Asia (and the Caucasus) with Indo-Iranian speakers alongside other lineages such as R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283, and maybe even Q1b-L275.

RCO
02-05-2020, 12:40 PM
What are the similarities between R1a-YP4141 and J1-FGC6064 ?
1 - Both can be found in ancient Iranian peoples around the Caspian Sea.
2 - Both bifurcated and expanded around 12000 ybp in Northern Middle East, that's a decisive Mesolithic indicator of well organized and ancient branches related to the initial Neolithization and domestication of animals.
3 - Both can be found in Iran, Georgia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iraq, Persian Gulf.
4 - Both can be found in Kurds, Zaza
5 - Both have successful isolated Western European branches in Britain and/or Portugal

TheAnatolian
02-06-2020, 04:48 AM
You certainly make some interesting points about the similarities between R1a-YP4141 and J1-FGC6064. It's an angle that I hadn't thought about until now.
So just to clarify, are you proposing that R1a-YP4141 and J1-FGC6064 were a part of the Neolithic Farmer expansion from Anatolia into Europe? If so, how do we reconcile that with the lack of R1a-YP4141 in the rest of Anatolia, Greece, Balkans, Sardinia or the Iberian Peninsula? The only sample that I have heard about coming from the Mediterranean region is a single R1a-YP4131 sample from Calabria, in Italy. https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=36.46269711932093%2C51.34192345331678&spn=32.157521%2C56.425781&z=4&mid=1xoby146BKX50zmwv052UFNkqYHg I would have expected to see more R1a-YP4141 in North and West Anatolia, not just concentrated in one little corner and also in the Balkans and Mediterranian in general as those areas were not completely whitewashed by the Bronze Age expansion like in the rest of continental Europe.

Generalissimo
02-06-2020, 05:21 AM
What are the similarities between R1a-YP4141 and J1-FGC6064 ?
1 - Both can be found in ancient Iranian peoples around the Caspian Sea.
2 - Both bifurcated and expanded around 12000 ybp in Northern Middle East, that's a decisive Mesolithic indicator of well organized and ancient branches related to the initial Neolithization and domestication of animals.
3 - Both can be found in Iran, Georgia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iraq, Persian Gulf.
4 - Both can be found in Kurds, Zaza
5 - Both have successful isolated Western European branches in Britain and/or Portugal

Ridiculous.

There was no R1a in the Near East until the Bronze Age.

RCO
02-06-2020, 10:24 AM
Just follow the data. Do you have any scientific title or publication ?

Generalissimo
02-06-2020, 11:06 AM
Just follow the data. Do you have any scientific title or publication ?

Yes, and the most important ones are listed at the bottom of this image.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CdN1sEbEiis/XXocjUcDplI/AAAAAAAAIOo/5peJ8j1tMYQ7kHpl1ET2p-v5FlmgRGWAACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Ancient_Y-hg_R1a_v2.jpg

RCO
02-06-2020, 11:30 AM
R1a-YP4141 bifurcated around 12000 ybp long before the Ukrainian samples. The location of basal branches and the chronology of the bifurcations are good indicators for classifying phylogenies.

Generalissimo
02-06-2020, 11:42 AM
R1a-YP4141 bifurcated around 12000 ybp long before the Ukrainian samples. The location of basal branches and the chronology of the bifurcations are good indicators for classifying phylogenies.

Iran: 0/6

RCO
02-06-2020, 11:53 AM
The split time is more relevant here.

Generalissimo
02-06-2020, 12:12 PM
The split time is more relevant here.

Only in your dreams.

Modern variation isn't relevant at all.

RCO
02-06-2020, 01:48 PM
Just like in any other haplogroup since A00. Cladistics. Phylogenetic systematics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monito_del_monte

TheAnatolian
02-08-2020, 10:53 AM
There are two archaeological samples of R1a-YP4141 that I know of. One is a medieval sample from Poznań, Poland and another Bronze Age Eastern "Kazakh" sample from Aktogay (1618-1513 calBCE) which was R1a-YP4141 and positive to some SNPs on the YP4132 level. How do you think these are connected with the modern samples coming out of Kuwait, Iran and India? Back migration from Europe?

RCO
02-08-2020, 12:22 PM
What are the references and sources ? You can find R1a-YP4141 in the United States and it doesn't change anything because they don't have ancient diversity and ancient different/organized clusters. YP4141 is quite different in terms of origins, matches, bifurcations. Only in Northern Middle East and in Ancient Iranian peoples we can find 12 ybp splits like YP5018/YP4132. Eastern European R1a is local, derived, recent and they have always been there because they are very young, just like R1b in Ireland or J1 in Arabia, they are not basal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_(phylogenetics)

TheAnatolian
02-09-2020, 12:08 AM
I searched, but couldn't find any direct sources for those two samples. Unfortunately, all that I could find were second-hand references to them in google searches.

Coldmountains
02-09-2020, 10:26 AM
Like Generalissimo said modern samples and frequencies of this clade are irrelevant and don't say anything coherent and conclusive about the origin of this clade.

Ancient dna is only relevant here and R1a was in the Neolithic pretty much restricted to North Eurasia and probably only the western part of it. So any R1a clades even the basal ones arrived later either with Indo-Iranians or other IEs or IE influenced people (Turks,..)

TheAnatolian
02-10-2020, 05:46 AM
Is there anyone on here who can assist me to figure out how these samples relate to one another? I.e if there is one Basal sample that split off first. Is it even possible with the information below?
Just by looking at the numbers, I can roughly see that the two Turkey samples and the Yemeni sample are the closest to each other and form their own cluster. The Chechen 1 sample is the most distant from all other samples and Qatar seems to be somewhat evenly distant to all the others and Georgia looks like it might have some type of relationship with Qatar, but I am not sure how.

If there are any mathematical geniuses on here, I would greatly appreciate your assistance in shedding some light on how this subclade moved around and evolved. Thanks!

Turkey 1 13 23 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12-12-13-17 11 10 19-23 15 16 18 17 34-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 14 12 27 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 12 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 15 25 15 12 15 27 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 11 11
Turkey 2 13 23 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 32 18 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12-12-16-17 11 10 19-23 15 16 20 17 35-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 14 12 26 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 12 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 15 25 15 12 15 27 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 11 11
Yemen 13 23 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12-12-16-17 11 10 19-23 15 17 18 17 34-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 14 12 27 24 19 12 12 12 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 13 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 15 25 15 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 12 11
Qatar 13 23 17 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 32 12-12-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 17 19 16 34-37 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 14 12 27 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 11 9 18 15 17 15 26 15 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 15 17 9 11 11
Georgia 2 13 24 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-9 11 12 25 15 0 31 12-12-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 17 18 18 35-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 15 12 12 13 11 12 12 13 34 15 9 14 12 26 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 14 24 13 11 9 18 15 19 16 26 15 12 15 26 12 23 18 10 15 17 9 11 11
Chechen 1 13 23 15 10 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 12 25 15 19 29 12-13-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 15 36-36 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 21-22 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 37 15 9 14 12 26 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 13 23 13 11 9 17 15 17 15 25 15 12 15 25 12 23 18 11 15 17 9 12 11

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RCO
02-10-2020, 12:33 PM
They need (NGS, NextGenSeq) just like Big Y or other. Scientific facts are archaeological results and NGS clusters, just like Mesolithic J1 in Karelia https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5588-Y-Haplogroup-J-found-in-Karelian-Eastern-Hunter-Gatherer and a modern cluster in Finland https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F2306/
No ancient R1a-YP4141 cluster has ever been found in Eastern Europe, so they only have wishful thinking pretending to be ancient there without any scientific facts.

Generalissimo
02-10-2020, 12:37 PM
They need (NGS, NextGenSeq) just like Big Y or other. Scientific facts are archaeological results and NGS clusters, just like Mesolithic J1 in Karelia https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5588-Y-Haplogroup-J-found-in-Karelian-Eastern-Hunter-Gatherer and a modern cluster in Finland https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F2306/
No ancient R1a-YP4141 cluster has ever been found in Eastern Europe, so they only have wishful thinking pretending to be ancient there without any scientific facts.

There's loads of ancient R1a from Eastern Europe, but no ancient R1a from the Middle East.

TheAnatolian
02-12-2020, 10:58 AM
- Message Deleted -

TheAnatolian
02-12-2020, 11:00 AM
I think RCO has made the most compelling arguement so far regarding the origin of R-YP5018. I understand that there are loads of ancient samples of R1a lines in Eastern Europe that are associated with the Bronze Age expansion of IE languages but there are no proven ancient R-YP4141 samples anywhere in Europe as far as I know. To be honest there aren't even that many modern samples. I find it hard to believe that it originated in Eastern Europe but it's line has subsequently vanished without a trace. Until we see some solid evidence I think that we will have to simply assume that R-YP4141 > R-YP5918 arrived in Iran/Northern Mesopotamia region before the Bronze Age. Just my humble opinion.

Generalissimo
02-20-2020, 08:58 AM
I think RCO has made the most compelling arguement so far regarding the origin of R-YP5018. I understand that there are loads of ancient samples of R1a lines in Eastern Europe that are associated with the Bronze Age expansion of IE languages but there are no proven ancient R-YP4141 samples anywhere in Europe as far as I know. To be honest there aren't even that many modern samples. I find it hard to believe that it originated in Eastern Europe but it's line has subsequently vanished without a trace. Until we see some solid evidence I think that we will have to simply assume that R-YP4141 > R-YP5918 arrived in Iran/Northern Mesopotamia region before the Bronze Age. Just my humble opinion.

Arrived from where in Iran/Northern Mesopotamia?

Currently the oldest by far instances of R1a are from Eastern Europe, so these are also the most basal and ancestral clades.

There are even older cases of R1a from Eastern Europe in unpublished data, in the far north of Russia, but none at all from before the Bronze Age anywhere in Asia.

RCO made compelling arguments? LOL

TheAnatolian
02-21-2020, 05:05 AM
I think it's safe to say that R-SYR1542.2 and all the subclades below it are thoroughly European in origin. But I am not 100% convinced about R-YP4141 or R-M479. We all know that haplogroup R originated in Northern Eurasia with the Ancient Eurasians. Is it inconceivable that the R-YP4141 and R-M479 might have split off from R-SYR1542.2 very early on and migrated south into Southern Eurasia / South-Western Eurasia while the more successful SYR1542.2 migrated west to Eastern Europe?

To be honest, I am not emotionally invested in either theory. It would be great if a basal sample of R-YP4141 is found in Eastern Europe or anywhere for that matter, because then at least I will be able to get a definitive answer to my question regarding the origin of the subclade that I belong to. I cannot comment on any unpublished data for obvious reasons. I can only make up my mind using the information that is available to me right now. And by looking at the dates of formation and the TMRCA of the Asian branches of R-YP4141 and R-M479 on YTree at yfull.com, they appear to be much more ancient compared to the ones from Europe.

If there is some unpublished data out there that is going to make me eat my words, then all I can say is that I hope that they start publishing them soon.

JoeyP37
02-21-2020, 01:50 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing more basal clades of R1a in Zagros/Caucasian mountains, if only to put a serious wrench in Carlos Quiles' goofy R1a theories. Finding basal clades in Northern European Russia doesn't help, although I can think of more logical Uralic to Indo-European language shifts than what he puts out.

xenus
02-22-2020, 07:35 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing more basal clades of R1a in Zagros/Caucasian mountains, if only to put a serious wrench in Carlos Quiles' goofy R1a theories. Finding basal clades in Northern European Russia doesn't help, although I can think of more logical Uralic to Indo-European language shifts than what he puts out.

Just a quick search for R1a>YP4141 brought up a post on his site with a link to molgen where someone typed one of the samples from mathieson et al. (2018) as R1a>YP4141>pre-YP5018.
In the supplement the sample was labelled

I5876 Dereivka I Ukraine_Mesolithic 7040-6703 calBCE R1a

let's be fair to carlos though, to put a wrench in his theories would kill him because the only place they'll ever be real is in his head.

TheAnatolian
02-22-2020, 11:54 AM
Just a quick search for R1a>YP4141 brought up a post on his site with a link to molgen where someone typed one of the samples from mathieson et al. (2018) as R1a>YP4141>pre-YP5018.
In the supplement the sample was labelled

I5876 Dereivka I Ukraine_Mesolithic 7040-6703 calBCE R1a



Do you think you could share the link to it? I tried searching for it but was unable to find it. I'd love to read it for myself.

Thanks

TheAnatolian
03-02-2020, 03:50 AM
A couple of people on molgen have claimed that they have discovered ancient samples that could be R-yp4141 from Meolithic Ukraine and Bronze Age Kazakhstan. I was able to find the data for the two samples in the European Nucleotide Archives with the help of xenus. Is there anyone here who has the capabilities and interest in analysing these two samples to verify that they are yp4141 > pre yp5018 as claimed by Russian posters on Molgen?

Alternatively, if anyone has any advice on how I can veriy these claims myself I would be eternally greatful. Please see the molgen posts and sample data links below.

I5876 Dereivka I Ukraine_Mesolithic 7040-6703 calBCE R1a
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,9993.msg473675.html#msg473675
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB22652

I4773 Aktogai_MLBA Kazakhstan 1618-1513 calBCE (329020 BP, PSUAMS-2607)
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=12152.30
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS3411787

TheAnatolian
07-01-2020, 04:55 AM
By the way, if anyone is interested in this topic, myself and other members of our subclade have created a Facebook page called 'R-YP4141 & Subclades'.

We are constantly updating the information on the Facebook page whenever we discover new branches or find any information relevant to our group. Please feel free to join and get involved in the discussion. The link is below.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/573539423259107/

Cheer!