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Bealfire
02-04-2020, 09:53 PM
So far so good.

We have a 35kya Paleolithic Romanian woman with basal U6*.

A 25kya Dzudzuana man with U6 in Georgia.

And finally plenty of 15kya U6 in Taforalt. Iberomaurusian culture being 23kya to 25kya.

MtDNA U6 and mtdna U5 are sisters. They were born from the same West Eurasian autosomal mother somewhere around 45-40kya maximum.

U6 is *estimated* having entered North Africa 25 to 30kya.

So very little time and space actually separate mtdna U6* in Paleolithic Romania and the direct ancestors of Iberomaurusians.

So the theory of Iberomaurusians being Cromagnon isn't far fetched at the end of the day because Mesolithic Europeans and Mesolithic Iberomaurusians were definitely closely related via mtDNA and morphological appearance.

In fact the theory of Iberomaurusians having inherited Eurasian DNA from Mesolithic Europe/Balkan or Mesolithic Anatolia is still circulating around the web.

The theory of their Eurasian DNA is a Dzudzunua-like source spreading from Paleolithic West Asia has become widespread due to the recent papers (2017).

Milkyway
02-06-2020, 10:18 AM
Yes, I think mtDNA U6 has been found in a couple of UP Romanian fossils (~35 kyr). However, there's no evidence they're directly related to the Dzudzuana people or Iberomaurisians (we don't have genomic DNA to test that). Haplogroup R1b was also found in a 14000 year old man from Northern Italy (Villabruna 1) and a substantial amount of present-day Italian men are R1b, but their subclades aren't directly related to Villabruna 1 and they arrived much later to the region. Curiously, virtually all U6 in Europe (its frequency is highest in Iberia) appears to be descended from NW African clades.

Kristiina
02-06-2020, 12:14 PM
It is very useful to have a look at the phylogenetic tree of U6 haplotypes in order to judge their dispersal pattern:
Additional file 2: U6 phylogenetic tree based on 230 complete sequences

It is part of this fairly recent paper:
The history of the North African mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U6 gene flow into the African, Eurasian and American continents, 2014
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062890/

This paper on both U6 and M1 is also fairly recent and informative:
Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa, 2012

https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-12-234

epoch
02-06-2020, 12:49 PM
Yes, I think mtDNA U6 has been found in a couple of UP Romanian fossils (~35 kyr). However, there's no evidence they're directly related to the Dzudzuana people or Iberomaurisians (we don't have genomic DNA to test that). Haplogroup R1b was also found in a 14000 year old man from Northern Italy (Villabruna 1) and a substantial amount of present-day Italian men are R1b, but their subclades aren't directly related to Villabruna 1 and they arrived much later to the region. Curiously, virtually all U6 in Europe (its frequency is highest in Iberia) appears to be descended from NW African clades.

IIRC the Hervella paper showed the Muierii sample to be *basal* U6. So there might be a chance they actually are directly related.

Milkyway
02-06-2020, 02:53 PM
IIRC the Hervella paper showed the Muierii sample to be *basal* U6. So there might be a chance they actually are directly related.

I meant from a more global perspective, that is, if Paleolithic populations with U6 lineages are related and/or ancestral to one another. I think this can only be tested with genomic DNA.

Nebro
02-06-2020, 05:53 PM
Most likely U6 entered north africa with E1b1b at 25,000 yr and founded the Iberomaurusian industry, because the Iberomaurusians appearance seems to be correlated with the Eurasian back-migration into north africa.
an intermediate population who lived between Levant and Caucasus is the likely ancestor.

drobbah
02-06-2020, 06:09 PM
Most likely U6 entered north africa with E1b1b at 25,000 yr and founded the Iberomaurusian industry, because the Iberomaurusians appearance seems to be correlated with the Eurasian back-migration into north africa.
an intermediate population who lived between Levant and Caucasus is the likely ancestor.

E1b1b (E-M215) originated in the Horn of Africa not in the Levant unless you are suggesting that E-M215 men entered North Africa from the south when U6 females entered Africa from the Levant.

Bealfire
02-06-2020, 06:31 PM
[Moderator: racist comment deleted]

There's no real concrete material proof of this. For now all the oldest EM215 are in North Africa and Levant. Oldest EM215* lineage found in North Africa too.

Nebro
02-06-2020, 06:42 PM
E1b1b (E-M215) originated in the Horn of Africa not in the Levant unless you are suggesting that E-M215 men entered North Africa from the south when U6 females entered Africa from the Levant.
Horn of africa origin is no longer supported by ancient dna ..the Diversity stuff is outdated.
It seems ancient dna points to multiple back migrations from Near east carrying E1b1b into africa into northern and east africa from the levant or arabia.
The E1b1b in horn africa is assosiated with Eurasian ancestry from the levant.
Seems to have replaced the haplogroup B and A..preserved by Hadza-like groups.

thejkhan
02-06-2020, 08:21 PM
E-M35 originated in North Africa and all the relevant aDNA should make that pretty obvious by now.

drobbah
02-06-2020, 08:50 PM
Horn of africa origin is no longer supported by ancient dna ..the Diversity stuff is outdated.
It seems ancient dna points to multiple back migrations from Near east carrying E1b1b into africa into northern and east africa from the levant or arabia.
The E1b1b in horn africa is assosiated with Eurasian ancestry from the levant.
Seems to have replaced the haplogroup B and A..preserved by Hadza-like groups.

E-M215 originated in the Horn of Africa with a time gap of at least 11k years between it and E-M35.It was the E-M78 back-migrants from the Sudan to the Horn which probably brought Dinka/Natufian ancestries.It is very possible the Hunter Gatherers that inhabited modern Somalia carried lineages like E-V16 which have not been found in North Africa but in the Horn and Arabia (descendants of Horners).Apparently Riech lab at Harvard have the Buur Heybe (pre-Somali HGs) specimens so hopefully we can get some ancient DNA and will give us a clearer picture in the peopling of the Horn and East Africa.


Within this clade, the posterior probability (0.97) strongly favors an eastern African placement for the origin of the E-M215 diversity, as previously suggested by Semino et al. (2004) and Gebremeskel and Ibrahim (2014), whereas a northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).


Despite we assigned most previous deep E-M35 eastern African clades to a single haplogroup (E-V1515), our phylogeographic analysis slightly favors an eastern African origin for E-M35 (posterior probability = 0.64). We found a new clade, defined by V1515 mutation, which originated and differentiated in eastern Africa (posterior probability = 0.99), and expanded southward in recent times as a single terminal clade (E-M293).

Gebremeskel, E. I., & Ibrahim, M. E. (2014). Y-chromosome E haplogroups: their distribution and implication to the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralism. European Journal of Human Genetics, 22(12), 1387-1392.