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evon
01-28-2014, 04:33 PM
OK, making this thread to collect everything ive found out in one place :)

My family is from Western Norway for the most part and all paper trails end within Norway so far.

I have tested my self and my maternal grandmother via 23andme and FTDNA, I have also tested my paternal Aunt along with my maternal uncle over at 23andme.

Confirmed ancestry:

- German ancestry dating a back a few 100 years on my fathers side (Merchants?).

- Romani/Roma/Sinti ancestry from the 1850's along my maternal grandmothers side, also possible distant Romani ancestry via my maternal grandfather (Mercenaries it seems).

- Chinese ancestry that seem to be via my maternal grandfather (No idea when, but it seems connected to the Silk Road).

- Tatar ancestry, likely connected to the Chinese ancestry.


Possible ancestry:

- Sephardic ancestry via my grandmother(we have at least one confirmed Sephardic cousin, and it seems we might have more, along with distant North African ancestry.

- Ashkenazi ancestry, this is likely mixed in with the Romani ancestry, as i have several Ashkenazi matches from Romania and the Balkan in general.

- Dutch ancestry, i will likely never figure this one out, because Norway and Holland have a long history of migrations going both ways.

- English/Irish ancestry, this seems very possible, but again, its hard to say with all the migration both ways.

- Italian, there have been minor Italian immigration to Norway, and i find that in the same tiny village that my maternal grandfather comes from, there is a Italian surname in circulation dating back a few 100 years, along with a good number of large Italian 23andme matches, so it seems likely.

- Portuguese, seems likely due to large 23andme matches, but could be connected to Sephardic ancestry?

- Ukrainian and Russian ancestry, could be connected to the Tatar ancestry?

Will post some more stuff shortly, just needed to make a short summary and save the thread first.

evon
01-28-2014, 04:45 PM
Blog entry about the latest research into our Romani ancestry:

http://scandinaviangeneticshq.blogspot.no/2014/01/romani-detected.html

Baltimore1937
01-28-2014, 05:26 PM
Norwegian sailors have been sailing the Seven Seas for centuries now. I once met a lovely young Eurasian lady in a Hong Kong bar (Feb '69) who said her father was a Norwegian. (My distant cousin?).

evon
01-28-2014, 05:52 PM
Norwegian sailors have been sailing the Seven Seas for centuries now. I once met a lovely young Eurasian lady in a Hong Kong bar (Feb '69) who said her father was a Norwegian. (My distant cousin?).

Yes, but my ancestry from places like China is not from Norwegian or even Romani ancestry entering the Chinese genepool, but Chinese peoples migrating west, entering the Scandinavian genepool via the northern Silk Road.

On that note, i am finding increasing number of Chinese matches on the X chr also, the connection is not via my maternal grandmother, or found in my maternal uncle, so it seems it could be connected to the same matches i have found on the 5th chr via my maternal grandfather in China, at least one of them is from the southern inland province of Guizhou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guizhou), and i am hoping to look closer at it using all of Gedmatch tools :)

evon
01-29-2014, 05:06 PM
My Chinese x-matches via Gedmatch:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/707/8hmg.jpg

I wonder what time frame we are dealing with here, the SNP count is very low, and also if the admixture is European in the Chinese, or vise versa?


Awhile back i also did the X-Chr via Eurogenes, and the results do not match up as East Asian, i will have to investigate more.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/809/957b.png

AJL
01-29-2014, 06:12 PM
The Ashkenazi matches could also be connected to the Sephardi -- another thing to look at that could possibly explain the Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Chinese, and Crimean all at the same time is something like Crimean Karaite ancestry. Though I would also not take sub-300-SNP segments as necessarily true.

evon
01-29-2014, 06:30 PM
The Ashkenazi matches could also be connected to the Sephardi -- another thing to look at that could possibly explain the Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Chinese, and Crimean all at the same time is something like Crimean Karaite ancestry. Though I would also not take sub-300-SNP segments as necessarily true.

The Sephardi connection is via my grandmother, and these matches seem to be via my mother but not not grandmother, so my grandfather, but X-Chr inheritance is still largely a mystery to me..Yes, the SNP count is very low, but the consistent Chinese matches on the same spot is why i thought i should mention it, had it been only one i would not have noted it as anything special. Sadly i have very few matches over at 23andme on my X, so i cant compare them, and even though i would like to share with these people on 23andme, due to the low SNP count would likely not show these matches at all.
The most reasonable explanation is that it is connected to my already known Chinese linage, because it too is via my grandfather, i am hoping to get my grandfathers brother tested this year, and i hope that will reveal some more info on this linage, as sadly my grandfather passed some years ago.

But yes, i have noted that Jews match people in China, Central Asia and India allot, but the Jewish diaspora likely explain all of these matches, no need for karaites ect.

Scarlet Ibis
02-09-2014, 07:27 AM
I would be interested to see what ancestry estimates you would get from AncestryDNA. I would definitely recommend trying it out just for fun if you have extra money to burn.

evon
02-12-2014, 03:14 PM
I would be interested to see what ancestry estimates you would get from AncestryDNA. I would definitely recommend trying it out just for fun if you have extra money to burn.

They dont ship to Europe :( But i could get it via a US based cousin of mine, i did that before to avoid the high shipment cost from 23andme..how much are they, i would like to get two kits, one for me and one for my granny..

PS: my DF13 results are due today from FTDNA...lets see when they come in..

Scarlet Ibis
02-12-2014, 04:58 PM
They dont ship to Europe :( But i could get it via a US based cousin of mine, i did that before to avoid the high shipment cost from 23andme..how much are they, i would like to get two kits, one for me and one for my granny..

PS: my DF13 results are due today from FTDNA...lets see when they come in..

The price is $99, but they're having a $89 sale right now until Feb. 16. Also, I have a promo code for free shipping that your American cousin could use. I can give it to you in a rep comment if you are interested.

Anyway, I took it, and I wouldn't say it was quite as accurate for me as 23andme is. It underestimated my British ancestry. But it gives another perspective of your results, of course. And a major plus to it is that they give you raw data, which you can use for Gedmatch.

evon
02-13-2014, 05:46 PM
The price is $99, but they're having a $89 sale right now until Feb. 16. Also, I have a promo code for free shipping that your American cousin could use. I can give it to you in a rep comment if you are interested.

Anyway, I took it, and I wouldn't say it was quite as accurate for me as 23andme is. It underestimated my British ancestry. But it gives another perspective of your results, of course. And a major plus to it is that they give you raw data, which you can use for Gedmatch.

Thanks for the offer, let me think about it one more night before i decide...

Still waiting for my DF13 :(

evon
03-01-2014, 12:12 PM
Still waiting for DF13 results :(

Also,

I found another Norwegian Romani cousin via FTDNA, she is "2nd cousin twice removed" for my grandmother according to our paper trail with largest segment at 22.02cM and total at 71.42cM. :D

evon
03-04-2014, 08:10 AM
Just when i thought i had my Aunts DNA under control :P

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/eeee.png

In other news, got what seems to be a person with Norwegian Romani ancestry via 23andme. and i am still waiting for the DF13 results..

evon
04-09-2014, 09:38 PM
Cant believe i am still waiting for the FTDNA DF13+ SNP, it was due in February:


SNP: DF13 Batch:548 2/12/2014

:help:

Little bit
04-09-2014, 09:52 PM
My grandfather's DF41 snp took 4 1/2 months! It was due in January and returned in April, looks like you're set for the same experience. It sucks. I called several times and they kept saying that the test failed but I don't believe that to be true. At the time, FTDNA had just had a holiday sale and was rolling out Geno 2.0 and I think piddly snp tests got put on the back burner and they just told customers that the tests failed. Who knows, though?

Btw, my grandfather is still an L21 orphan. Looks like he's negative for everything known past DF13, according to the predictors. Griffith from Cardigan Wales. Let me know if you have any ideas :):

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20/LB234/th_Screenshot2014-02-12at63823PM_zps69fe0c37.png (http://s953.photobucket.com/user/LB234/media/Screenshot2014-02-12at63823PM_zps69fe0c37.png.html)

Good luck to you!

** Edited because it was the DF41 snp, not the L21 snp that took 4 1/2 months. Actually the L21 snp came pretty quick, as did the DF13, which was more proof that my grandfather's DF41 snp test was not likely to fail so many times.

Agamemnon
04-09-2014, 11:25 PM
Evon, where do you think you L21 came from, by which I mean "how did it end up in Norway"?

evon
04-10-2014, 09:52 AM
Evon, where do you think you L21 came from, by which I mean "how did it end up in Norway"?

Hard to say, as i dont think it was only one entry of L21+ into Norway, but several, from Germany, UK and maybe even Holland.

So far my best guess is that my own linage is German in origin..dating back to the German migrations to Western Norway that started back in 1300's and lasted for several 100 years.

evon
04-26-2014, 07:03 PM
Still waiting for DF13, found it a bit weird that it dosnt show up in the new YDNA tree..the good news is that the new Population finder will soon be out and i am planning on ordering Family Finder for my mother next week :) Bye bye 23andme, hello FTDNA, no chance i am testing anymore relatives with 23andme while they have that crappy v4 Chip..

evon
05-04-2014, 07:55 PM
Well, i am DF13+ so what now :P

evon
05-07-2014, 08:52 PM
Just adding Mine and my grandmothers My origin results to the thread:

Mine:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/moi-1.png

Grandmother:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/gran-1.png

I have started taking the Mediterranean connection a bit more serious given i got such a high score in this run, but i dont have much to go on. I think its either Via Portugal or Italy, given my family members get many strong hits in these two countries via Countries of Ancestry and in DNA relatives over at 23andme. Portugal seems like a good bet because it has strong links to Holland which in turn have strong links to Norway, i guess i need to check it out further..

evon
05-17-2014, 02:26 AM
Met a woman from Sardinia tonight, was shocked at how similar she was to my mother, they could have been sisters :O Now i eagerly await my mothers DNA from FTDNA to see if she also get Med :P

evon
05-27-2014, 12:32 PM
Our latest Countries of Ancestry in default:

Paternal aunt:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/aunt-1.png

Me:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/me.png

Maternal uncle:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/uncle-1.png

Maternal grandmother:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/gran-2.png

evon
06-07-2014, 10:51 AM
Thinking i should investigate my grandmothers strong western pull, in both FTDNA My origins and 23andme's Ancestry Composition she scores very high %.

23andme:

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/Untitled-1.png

It seems to be Irish rather then English, and even most of the public English matches have Irish sounding surnames. But i dont know if CoA gives the wrong impression, as iknow English/Irish are over-represented in the 23andme database, so far ive got a few Irish matches in DNA relatives also, but not as many as i would expect, maybe this is due to them not being public?

FTDNA:

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/gran-1.png

Any ideas on how i might further my investigation?

evon
06-17-2014, 04:35 PM
Got my mothers FTDNA results..

Myorigins:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/Screenshotfrom2014-06-17180337.png

So it seems clear that i got the Circumpolar from my fathers side as i expected, same with the Mediterranean ancestry. She also got a substantial part of the Coastal component from my grandmother, as ive seen in my uncle also over on 23andme.

Her mothers Myorigins:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/gran-1.png

Her sons Myorigins:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/moi-1.png

I will now upload her file to Gedmatch and also go through her Family Finder matches, ive had a quick look and i saw she had many of the Romani matches that both me and my grandmother have..

evon
06-17-2014, 05:19 PM
Some non-ethnic Norwegian matches:

- Russian via my grandmother.
- Two central Europeans from around Hungary/Austria via my grandfather.
- A Latvian with German ancestry via my grandfather.
- A bunch of Swedes via my grandmother, many seem to have likely Romani connections..

evon
06-17-2014, 06:14 PM
Looking at my aunts CoA matches in both Italy and Portugal, which are the two main candidates for my Mediterranean ancestry, it seems that Portugal has better matches:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/itapt.png

But the problem with Portugal is that Dutch people have settled in places such as the Azores (Portuguese isle in the Atlantic), and Portuguese have settled in Holland, to make matters even more complicated, Norwegians have settled in Holland and Dutch people have settled in Norway,, so its hard to say which way the migration have gone, I will have to check Gedmatch for clues...But if Portugal is the culprit, then i think it must have been a Portuguese migration via the Netherlands into Norway.
That might also explain my minor North African ancestry, that David over at Eurogenes picked up not too long ago..and i should check if this has a Sephardi link or not..

evon
09-09-2014, 07:08 PM
Was able to track a German ancestor named Wolfgang back to Lübeck Germany 1480 today via paper trail, think he might be my earliest known ancestor so far. Wolfgang migrated to Norway and brought a large estate near a small village which was in our family until my Great Great Grandparent via my mother, whom was a drunk sold it and became ruined :P Now i am working on tracing a closer German relative on my fathers side, iknow he/she is there due to allot of German matches via DNA, but that part of the family has a very short family tree thus far..

J Man
09-10-2014, 02:09 AM
Very nice and interesting research here evon. It is interesting to see you using multiple techniques/results to find out and confirm your ancestry. :)

Erik
09-10-2014, 02:44 AM
Which test do you recommend the best?

Also could you try AncestryDNA and Geno 2.0?

evon
09-10-2014, 03:24 PM
Very nice and interesting research here evon. It is interesting to see you using multiple techniques/results to find out and confirm your ancestry. :)

Well, its the best way, to combine DNA and Digitized records online ect..Yesterday i also was able to get further on my fathers side with some help, i wonder what i will find there as its been kept a "secret" by my paternal family for some reason..


Which test do you recommend the best?

Also could you try AncestryDNA and Geno 2.0?

I have only tested with 23andme and FTDNA (i have also tested with others back in 2008 ect, but only YDNA and mtDNA), i think 23andme has the best database, but they have a crappy V4 chip with very low SNP count, so for now i recommend FTDNA, because it gives you more info via Gedmatch ect..

Ok, back to working on my fathers side..

evon
09-23-2014, 04:05 PM
Thinking i should do some SNP's for my YDNA, what is best to do after testing positive for the following SNP's:


Tests Taken
M173+, M269+, M343+, M207+, P25+, M269+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, L130-, L144-, L159-, L192-,
L193-, L195-, L96-, L226-, DF21-, P107-, U106-, U152-, U198-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-

Dubhthach
09-23-2014, 04:17 PM
Thinking i should do some SNP's for my YDNA, what is best to do after testing positive for the following SNP's:

There's several large scale subclades under DF13, have you done STR testing? It so it might be worth getting a genetic distance report from L21+ admin's (if you are a member of that project)

evon
09-23-2014, 08:08 PM
There's several large scale subclades under DF13, have you done STR testing? It so it might be worth getting a genetic distance report from L21+ admin's (if you are a member of that project)

Yes i have tested 67 markers, i think Rich on this forum might be an admin for that project group...you mean to determine if i match anyone else whom have tested downstream from DF13?

Dubhthach
09-24-2014, 08:22 AM
Yes i have tested 67 markers, i think Rich on this forum might be an admin for that project group...you mean to determine if i match anyone else whom have tested downstream from DF13?

Both Rich and Mike (Walsh) are admins, well if they run a Genetic Distance report you might show up close to men who belong to a specific subclade of DF13. So for example (this is random example) if you showed close matches who are Z253+ then it might hint that you yourself was also Z253+ etc.

Obviously one way to verify without a doubt where you fall in wider Y-chromosome area would be to do some sort of NGS (Next Generation sequencing) test such as BigY, however these are expensive at the moment (circa ~$500)

-Paul

evon
10-01-2014, 09:55 PM
Been trying to look into my aunts Afghan match via 23andme's AF/CoA using Eurogenes, but so far its very ambiguous:

AF(the segment may be larger then 7,5cM, but could be limited by the AF system and health SNP's ect):
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/AF.png
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/AF2.png

K13:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/k13.png
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/K13_col.png
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/k13P.png

K7:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/k7.png
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/K7col.png
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/k7P.png

Dodecad K12b:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/K12b.png
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/k12b-col.png
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/k12bP.png

Cant seem to find a true correlation, there is some presence of African and Mideastern %, but its hard to say if any of them overlap within the proximity of the segment..its also hard to know if one can rely on these calculators on such a fine scale..

evon
10-05-2014, 10:30 AM
Looked at some of the IBD matches from a previous run via Eurogenes, and those whom seem to match the Afghan segment to some degree, although these are smaller matches, they might signal something common here with the larger 7,5cM (+) Afghan match:

Afghan match:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/AF2.png


IBD matches:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/aunt1.png

It looks as if we are dealing with a Eurasian match, maybe connected with migrations going west or east between Europe and Central/South Asia, dont think its Romani, since i would expect more Balkan matches, especially Romania and Hungary, i suspect something related to the Russian expansion, but cant prove anything..

Another segment match that is in close proximity, but might be unrelated, a Turkish cousin, whom also match people on the same segment as far east as Iran and as far west as Spain:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/auntie2.png

evon
10-12-2014, 01:16 PM
Just had a look at some of my grandmothers matches in the Balkans and i realized that one of them have an "Iberian" YDNA linage, i wonder if that is due to this person having Sephardic ancestry? She only have two matches with that YDNA linage, the other having UK/Irish ancestry.

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/sep.png

On another note, i have found what seem to be an Ukrainian segment via my mothers side, it might be Ashkenazi, but probably not. I have 4 Ukrainians and several mixed peoples of partially Ukrainian ancestry on the same segment, the largest is around 7-8cM as far as i can tell, my uncle also have the same segment, but he has less matches there, could be a "Slavic" segment:

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/ashk.png

AJL
10-12-2014, 05:02 PM
Just had a look at some of my grandmothers matches in the Balkans and i realized that one of them have an "Iberian" YDNA linage, i wonder if that is due to this person having Sephardic ancestry?

It could be, but it could be a Roma connection as well:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Movimiento_gitano.jpg

evon
10-12-2014, 08:35 PM
It could be, but it could be a Roma connection as well:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Movimiento_gitano.jpg

Yes, its of course also possible, there might have been some gitanos with that YDNA linage migrating to the Ottoman realms at the same time as the Sephardic exodus, i will need to investigate more, will see if the segment overlaps with a cousin whom is part Sephardi...

I also heard that FTDNA will now accept 23andme/AncestryDNA autosomal transfers for free with limited access, and 40$ for full access, that should boost my database over at FTDNA :)

evon
10-12-2014, 09:06 PM
Sadly we are not sharing at 23andme, so i cant locate the segment of this Romanian cousin :(

evon
10-24-2014, 08:00 PM
I might have solved the mystery with the Afghan match on my aunts CoA over at 23andme, as i looked at the various other overlapping (or at least in the same region) segments via CoA, and i read on one of the profiles that this person was of German Volga ancestry, migrated to Ukraine in 1750, and whose ancestors got deported to labor camps by the Soviets during WWII, these camps where located in Tajikistan, so it is possible that the Afghan person is somehow connected to this event, and that a Volga German upon escape, or release from the labor camps left descendants in present day Afghanistan...

So far it seems reasonable, but there is a twist to the plot, as upon further investigation i could see that on the CoA of this Volga German there was allot of fully Jewish matches that overlapped on the same spot, and so the match in Afghanistan might very well be connected to Jewish migrations, as its fairly common for Jews to get matches in Central Asia, especially Uzbekistan, i am now awaiting a reply from the Volga German regarding if this person has the same Afghan match in DNA relatives, and or if there is any possibility of Jewish ancestry for this segment.

As if this wasnt enough, i also found out that my aunts highest DNA relative, whose YDNA is G1* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M285), a linage that is connected with the same region, or eastern Iran, and also connected to Jews, and Kuwait (https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupgproject/main-menu) (she also has a matching segment with a fully Kuwaiti person in CoA), so now i wonder if all of this is maybe connected, or if i am just sleep deprived enough to see connections were there is none?

YDNA G1* frequency:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/G1_haplogroup.png

My aunts G1* match:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/Screenshotfrom2014-10-24213203.png


*sleepy*....

evon
11-07-2014, 11:36 AM
Got what seems to be a first, a cousin whose name suggest Corsican ancestry:

3rd to Distant Cousin
0.16% shared, 1 segment (12cM)
U5b1c G2b

Interestingly his top matches on default are Mostly in Eastern Europe (Ashkenazi it seems):

Russia 0.5%
Ukraine 0.4%
Romania 0.4%
Poland 0.3%
Mexico 0.3%
Belarus 0.3%
Brazil 0.2%
United Kingdom 0.1%
Spain 0.1%
Norway 0.1% <-- Me
Jamaica 0.1%
Italy 0.1%
Greece 0.1%
Germany 0.1%
France 0.1%
Cuba 0.1%


When i turn it down below 7,5cM, there is a huge increase in what seems to be Sephardic matches in Turkey, Egypt, Syria etc...very interesting DNA i must say...I think our overlapping segment is the 10th chromosome location where i also got allot of Ukrainian and Austrian matches, and a large Belorussian Jewish match, so i wonder if this is a Jewish segment, but if so, is it Sephardic or Ashkenazi, or just generic?

His Ashkenazi score is rather low, so could all this be due to Common med ancestry shared between Jews and others whom have ancestry from the greater med region? as iknow i have ancestry from that region, and it dosnt seem to be Jewish in nature, although i cant rule out Sephardic ancestry at this point...

His Ashkenazi score:

Not declared Ashkenazi Jewish 12.2%–12.5%
Declared Ashkenazi Jewish 1.8%–2.4%


Also, just to note, he does not share DNA with with my maternal Uncle or grandmother, nor does he share DNA with my Paternal aunt, so Romani ancestry seems to be ruled out, unless he somehow is related to me via my maternal grandfather..

evon
11-10-2014, 09:57 PM
Ok, this is just down right weird, i was looking at a close Finnish Kale cousin of my grandmother (share around 36cM) and i noted that she has an exact same Afghan match in CoA as my paternal aunt, at around 7,5cM same as my aunt, and located on the very same spot as my aunt, but my aunt does not have any known Romani ancestry...Must investigate further, just seems too weird to be a coincident, and i doubt this Finnish kale has any Norwegian ancestry from Western Norway...

Humanist
11-10-2014, 10:03 PM
YDNA G1* frequency:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/G1_haplogroup.png

That is not at all an accurate frequency map.

From the same Wikipedia page as that map:


The highest reported concentration of G1 and its subgroups in a single country is in Iran, with next most frequent concentrations in neighboring countries to the west.

EDIT: By the way, there are some N Europeans who are members of G1. One of my (very) distant G1 cousins is a Welshman.

evon
11-10-2014, 10:09 PM
That is not at all an accurate frequency map.

From the same Wikipedia page as that map:

EDIT: By the way, there are some N Europeans who are members of G1. One of my (very) distant G1 cousins is a Welshman.

Yes iknow, That hot spot seems to be connected to the Pakistani G branch, guess they have messed it up due to changes in names used by 23andme/ISOGG etc....

Also the G1 YDNA cousin is likely not linked to the theory, it was just something that struck me as i was researching it...

evon
11-11-2014, 10:44 AM
Two Compositions, one Finnish Kale cousin and the Other Russian Kalderesh Romani cousin:

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/Screenshotfrom2014-11-11113113.png

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/Screenshotfrom2014-11-11113458.png


Think its starting to look as if the North African connection is via Finnish Kale ancestry, but i cant rule out Med ancestry via another line just yet..Also noteworthy is that my grandmother and the Finnish Kale cousin share a large segment that might overlap with the small West African segment..

evon
11-15-2014, 12:44 PM
Some more compositions of anonymous people with Romani connections, many of whom are cousins of mine:

Eastern Europe and Balkan:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/South.png


Northern Europe:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/North.png

Was surprised by the Romani with over 1% south Asian in UK...Also starting to see some trends, with North Africa and Weak Sub-Saharan African % as a common feature of some Romani, maybe it reflects migration via North Africa to Iberia by one branch?

AJL
11-16-2014, 05:48 AM
When i turn it down below 7,5cM, there is a huge increase in what seems to be Sephardic matches in Turkey, Egypt, Syria etc...very interesting DNA i must say...I think our overlapping segment is the 10th chromosome location where i also got allot of Ukrainian and Austrian matches, and a large Belorussian Jewish match, so i wonder if this is a Jewish segment, but if so, is it Sephardic or Ashkenazi, or just generic?

Very hard to say. There was some influence going both ways. However, with a Corsican connection in the midst I am tempted to guess at a likely Sephardi origin.

evon
11-16-2014, 10:45 AM
Very hard to say. There was some influence going both ways. However, with a Corsican connection in the midst I am tempted to guess at a likely Sephardi origin.

I think it might be right, i have sent him a message about his ancestry, so lets see.
One problem though is that CoA only show a singular chromosome bar, when it should show two bars, so these segments may not overlap in the way they seem to do, which is a major pain in the "#¤ when trying to solve ancestry per segments...

John9826
11-19-2014, 09:45 PM
Evon, my myOrigins map looks a lot like your grandmother's. I was wondering if you would like to compare notes of if you had any comments about my map. The Finnish comes from my father's side, but I have no idea where the Eastern European comes from.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rzah785tk6dhv97/Screenshot%202014-10-01%2021.44.01.png?dl=0

evon
11-20-2014, 11:39 AM
Evon, my myOrigins map looks a lot like your grandmother's. I was wondering if you would like to compare notes of if you had any comments about my map. The Finnish comes from my father's side, but I have no idea where the Eastern European comes from.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rzah785tk6dhv97/Screenshot%202014-10-01%2021.44.01.png?dl=0

Cant really say much about your ancestry based on such a map alone, you should look at your matches, also you could upload your data into Gedmatch.com

John9826
11-20-2014, 12:16 PM
Cant really say much about your ancestry based on such a map alone, you should look at your matches, also you could upload your data into Gedmatch.com

I entered my data and my GEDCOM into GEDMATCH.com. Do you have any ancestors from the Nord-Trondelag area? Just trying to figure out where the Eastern Europe stuff comes from.

Regards,

John

evon
11-20-2014, 06:26 PM
I entered my data and my GEDCOM into GEDMATCH.com. Do you have any ancestors from the Nord-Trondelag area? Just trying to figure out where the Eastern Europe stuff comes from.

Regards,

John

I have some ancestry from Around Rřros and possible Trondheim, but thats about it i think...my grandmothers eastern Europe is via Romani ancestry, but i dont think its the case for everybody who gets eastern europe obviously..

Scarlet Ibis
11-21-2014, 07:41 AM
Evon, my myOrigins map looks a lot like your grandmother's. I was wondering if you would like to compare notes of if you had any comments about my map. The Finnish comes from my father's side, but I have no idea where the Eastern European comes from.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rzah785tk6dhv97/Screenshot%202014-10-01%2021.44.01.png?dl=0

Not to butt in, but it looks like you have a Swedish surname. You might be interested in also checking out Western Swedish user "Salkin's" results for comparison. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3408-Salkin-s-myOrigins

evon
11-28-2014, 06:17 PM
The likely Sephardic/med connection in some pictures:

Me and Corsican/French guy:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/Cors_me.png
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/cors_meA.png

Seemingly overlapping segments:

Me -- Ukrainian:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/me_ukr.png

Me -- Portuguese:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/me_por.png

Me -- Corsican/French -- Italian:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/cors_Ita.png

Me -- Polish Ashkenazi:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/me_ash2.png

Me -- Belorussian Ashkenazi:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/me_ash.png

Corsican/French -- Sephardic/Ashkenazi?
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/Cors_sep1.png

evon
12-02-2014, 10:55 PM
Ok, am stuck on this, cant seem to find a way around it, so i am hoping someone can help?

Ive looked at this segment:
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af228/njal2010/Cors_me.png

Trying to see if it matches my mother, but since she is not in the 23andme database i have to rely on FTDNA or Gedmatch, the problem is that i cant isolate the specific segment and have to rely on huge shared segments that seem to incorporate this particular segment, but this seems to be too crude as my maternal uncle also seem to share these segments with me, but he does not match this particular segment with a third party over at 23andme, so what can i so?

Me and my mothers shared segments in numbers via FTDNA:

Chromosome:10 Start Location: 88087 End Location: 135327873 centiMorgans (cM): 176.25 # of Matching SNPs: 39139


Me and my maternal uncles shared segment in numbers via 23andme:

Chromosome:10 Start Location: 6000000 End Location: 78000000 centiMorgans (cM): 85.8 # of Matching SNPs: 14870


So any advice?

evon
01-10-2015, 12:53 PM
Been sending out sharing invites to my British and Irish matches via COA at 23andme, found one so far whom is likely linked via Romani ancestry and known migrations, as he also shares DNA with another Swede whom have Romani ancestry as well as lots of matches in the Balkan region...

evon
01-10-2015, 11:23 PM
Noticing that allot of my UK/Irish matches have low % Ashkenazi, I wonder if some of that might be noise, but so far it seems to be real due to Ashkenazi mtDNA linages etc, in fact Jewish history in Ireland is very unknown to me..Any suggestions as to why my UK/Irish Romani related matches keep showing up low levels of Ashkenazi?

here are some of them ive noted so far:

Person 1 UK:

100%
European

Northern European
49.3%
British & Irish
7.0%
French & German
2.6%
Scandinavian
34.9%
Broadly Northern European

Southern European
0.8%
Balkan
0.7%
Broadly Southern European
0.1%
Ashkenazi
4.5%
Broadly European

Person 2 Ireland:

100%
European

Northern European
94.6%
British & Irish
4.9%
Broadly Northern European
0.1%
Ashkenazi
0.5%
Broadly European

Person 3 Ireland:

100%
European

Northern European
96.7%
British & Irish
1.4%
French & German
1.8%
Broadly Northern European
< 0.1%
Ashkenazi
< 0.1%
Broadly European

Others tend to have North African %, could these two be related to Sephardic ancestry and not Ashkenazi?

Person 1 UK:

99.9%
European

Northern European
50.7%
British & Irish
6.6%
Scandinavian
5.7%
French & German
0.1%
Finnish
36.1%
Broadly Northern European

Southern European
0.2%
Iberian
< 0.1%
Broadly Southern European
0.5%
Broadly European
0.1%
Middle Eastern & North African
< 0.1%
North African
< 0.1%
Broadly Middle Eastern & North African
< 0.1%
Unassigned

Person 2 UK:

99.7%
European

Northern European
74.7%
British & Irish
5.2%
French & German
1.2%
Scandinavian
17.7%
Broadly Northern European

Southern European
0.2%
Iberian
0.4%
Broadly Southern European
0.2%
Broadly European
0.2%
Middle Eastern & North African
0.2%
North African
< 0.1%
Broadly Middle Eastern & North African
0.1%
East Asian & Native American

East Asian
0.1%
Broadly East Asian
< 0.1%
Broadly East Asian & Native American
< 0.1%
Unassigned

What is lacking is South Asian, but then again that is rare among people of mixed Romani ancestry, while those with full UK Romani ancestry tend to have around 1% South Asian, low levels of North African is also common for many Romani..So any thoughts?

evon
01-14-2015, 09:52 PM
Adding another one to the list:

Person 2 UK:

100%
European

Northern European
53.0%
British & Irish
9.4%
French & German
0.6%
Scandinavian
0.2%
Finnish
35.0%
Broadly Northern European
0.7%
Eastern European
0.4%
Ashkenazi
0.7%
Broadly European
< 0.1%
Sub-Saharan African
< 0.1%
West African
< 0.1%
Broadly Sub-Saharan African

Anyone sharing with allot of Brits and Irish, wondering if this is a common occurrence?

evon
01-19-2015, 10:26 PM
Had a major breakthrough thanks to an american cousin of mine, mapped a good number of new lines, several of whom are German, and I tracked one back to a guy born in Wismar in 1612, whom settled in my ancestral village, so now ive found two German lines to Northern Germany (Wismar and Lübeck), and another which is surely also German, but which I have not found its point or origin for yet.. Other than that ive found two which are likely Danish, but could also be German? and additionally I found a very mysterious person whom is simply known as Baltzar, whom I suspect is also German..It seems that all the major families in that village were German merchants whom gained citizenship from Bergen city, which was a Hanseatic city during those days.. One of the German surnames, Kramer, is often listed as Jewish, but in this case I think its German and not Jewish in origin..The other two German names, Hess and Klingenberg are not Jewish for sure..Dont know about Baltzar though...?

Baltimore1937
01-20-2015, 12:53 AM
Baltzar looks something like a Balthasar I have on my tree. Taking it from the first record I saw, Dr. Balthazar Salinus/Salinas was born in Danzig (now Poland) in 1587. He died in Gripsholm Castle, Stockholm Sweden in 1660.

Klingenburg is along the Hessen-Bavarian border SE from Frankfurt. It produces a local red wine that is sold at nearby Schloss Mespelbrunn, Bavaria.

evon
01-20-2015, 11:05 AM
Baltzar looks something like a Balthasar I have on my tree. Taking it from the first record I saw, Dr. Balthazar Salinus/Salinas was born in Danzig (now Poland) in 1587. He died in Gripsholm Castle, Stockholm Sweden in 1660.

Klingenburg is along the Hessen-Bavarian border SE from Frankfurt. It produces a local red wine that is sold at nearby Schloss Mespelbrunn, Bavaria.

Klingenberg in this case is from Lübeck, born in 1480. The name is occupational, like Smith or Archer in UK, and not a place name in this instance..Hess on the other hand might be a place name...

Baltimore1937
01-20-2015, 02:19 PM
Klingenberg in this case is from Lübeck, born in 1480. The name is occupational, like Smith or Archer in UK, and not a place name in this instance..Hess on the other hand might be a place name...

Thanks for the information. For quite awhile I thought I had King John in my tree. So I sort of neglected other lines. In the case of Balthasar Salinus from Danzig, it might be a Balt ancestral line. The surname looks rather like Lithuanian, for example. Wasn't Danzig a Haseatic city?

evon
01-20-2015, 05:32 PM
Thanks for the information. For quite awhile I thought I had King John in my tree. So I sort of neglected other lines. In the case of Balthasar Salinus from Danzig, it might be a Balt ancestral line. The surname looks rather like Lithuanian, for example. Wasn't Danzig a Haseatic city?

I dont know the tradition in Lithuania, but in Norway it was common for foreigners to "Norwegianize" their name, and to adopt a Norwegian surname within one generation in most instances...

Baltimore1937
01-20-2015, 07:35 PM
I was thinking about your mysterious name Baltzar. That might be a geographical name (Baltic area), or point to substrate Balt peoples who were there before the Slavs and Germans moved in. As for my Salinus line, I have to do more research at Ancestry.com. And that does not have much to do with DNA. His daughter is how I'm connected.

evon
01-20-2015, 07:57 PM
I was thinking about your mysterious name Baltzar. That might be a geographical name (Baltic area), or point to substrate Balt peoples who were there before the Slavs and Germans moved in. As for my Salinus line, I have to do more research at Ancestry.com. And that does not have much to do with DNA. His daughter is how I'm connected.

I dont think so, but it could be German, as its a very rare name in Norway, but not so much in Germany..

Jean M
01-20-2015, 08:31 PM
I was thinking about your mysterious name Baltzar. That might be a geographical name (Baltic area), or point to substrate Balt peoples who were there before the Slavs and Germans moved in.

The term 'Balts' is not an ancient one. It is a modern name coined by linguists for a group of languages.

I assume that 'Baltzar' is derived from the personal name Balthazar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthazar

evon
01-20-2015, 09:46 PM
I assume that 'Baltzar' is derived from the personal name Balthazar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthazar

Yes, its what I also think. He is the first mentioned person with that name in the whole wider region for over a 100 years, hence I think he is an immigrant, likely German, but could be anything really..Will contact the source to see if I can get some more info..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthazar_(given_name)


Balthazar (also spelled Balthasar, Balthassar, or Baltazar), from Phoenician ��������-������-���������� Balat-shar-usur,meaning "Baal protects the King" is the name commonly attributed to one of the Three Wise Men, at least in the west. Though no names are given in the Gospel of Matthew, this was one of the names the Western church settled on in the 8th century, based on the original meaning, though other names were used by Eastern churches (for more information see Biblical Magi). It is an alternate form of the Babylonian king Belshazzar, mentioned in the Book of Daniel.

Baltimore1937
01-21-2015, 06:06 PM
My Balthasar Salinus looks to be German or Silesian. His father, Gasparus Salinus, is variously given as born at Marienburg, Prussia or in eastern Silesia about 1559. That area was earlier within the Austrian empire. My Springer line back then also came from eastern Silesia. They they must have known each other, within a few generations, etc.

evon
01-21-2015, 10:01 PM
Been looking at another side of my family, found a line that goes back to Danish nobility, some lines also include famous people such as Ragnar Lodbrok, but I am highly skeptical of anything before 1500's, but the nobility seems to be real enough...

Baltimore1937
01-22-2015, 10:56 PM
My Balthasar Salinus looks to be German or Silesian. His father, Gasparus Salinus, is variously given as born at Marienburg, Prussia or in eastern Silesia about 1559. That area was earlier within the Austrian empire. My Springer line back then also came from eastern Silesia. They they must have known each other, within a few generations, etc.

One last two cents worth. It looks like that Springer line was really Saxons of the German variety. They seem to pop up over a wide geographical area over the centuries, and seem to have been early allies of the Franks (Charlemagne). One tree goes back to France. I also saw in passing a tree that is interested in the Springers named Boehner (spelling?). Hmm... Maybe I should vote Republican.

evon
01-28-2015, 09:37 PM
Mothers side so far via paper trail:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vdfr.jpg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/vulcanphoto/media/New-Mind-Map_1w38vdfr.jpg.html)

evon
02-10-2015, 10:01 PM
The recent update really cleared things up with regards to my Corsican 12cM match, now we have allot of common matches in CoA, and most are Jewish, just sent out allot of new invites, one Finnish/Jewish guy accepted and we match, he has also got allot of the same Jewish matches there...

J Man
02-11-2015, 12:30 AM
Good stuff evon...I have myself recently just noticed a few new Finnish matches that are of decent size (one is just over 13 cM) on Family Finder at FTDNA. I am lucky though that I know that the vast majority of these Finnish matches come from my paternal grandmother's side. Makes them easier to narrow down.

evon
02-11-2015, 12:58 PM
Here is a segment matching "chart", for what seems to be a Sephardic segment, I am unsure about the 4gp Romanian Jew, identification of "Jewishness" made on the basis of surname Harris, and even more so with regards to the 4gp Italian Jew, identification made on the basis of this person having Aaron as part of the nickname hence the "?".

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vkke.jpg

evon
02-11-2015, 01:00 PM
Good stuff evon...I have myself recently just noticed a few new Finnish matches that are of decent size (one is just over 13 cM) on Family Finder at FTDNA. I am lucky though that I know that the vast majority of these Finnish matches come from my paternal grandmother's side. Makes them easier to narrow down.

Yes, I am very fortunate to have tested several of my family members, otherwise I would have had to work 2x as hard to figure things out..

evon
03-29-2015, 09:56 AM
Simplified overview of my non-Norwegian linages thus far uncovered using paper trail:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vwhx.jpg

So it seems I have uncovered the suspected Jewish branch, but it seems to be Ashkenazi in nature and not Sephardi, which seem off, but it could be that this is a Ashkenazi person with mixed ancestry? I am currently trying to extend this branch into Germany by as many generations as I can, the biggest challenge is the lack of a standardized surname, which means that you get allot of variation, which again make the search all the more difficult, lucky I got some help from a very competent Norwegian woman from my city whom is also researching similar ancestry via a YDNA J1 linage...

evon
04-06-2015, 09:27 PM
Have to love stereotypes, as soon as I told my grandmother about the discovery of a Jewish ancestral line, her eyes light up as she said that explained why I was so good at handling money :P

evon
04-09-2015, 07:01 PM
Found my first solid British lines so far, one going back to English/Welsh nobility, and the other going back to the Scottish highlands, both at around 1600, but I need to confirm the correctness of the paper trail before I settle down..

paulgill
04-09-2015, 08:43 PM
Interesting, you been just little lucky, I guess.

evon
04-09-2015, 09:41 PM
Interesting, you been just little lucky, I guess.

Lucky? how so?

paulgill
04-09-2015, 11:52 PM
Lucky? how so?Well, you have now found out that you belong to the Royal lineage, is not that being lucky, most can only imagine such a connection.

evon
04-10-2015, 08:48 AM
Well, you have now found out that you belong to the Royal lineage, is not that being lucky, most can only imagine such a connection.

Hmm, dont really consider myself lucky, dont see why having noble ancestry should make me feel like that, except maybe because its easier to trace noble lines back in time...Personally I find merchants much more interesting than nobles..

Eitherway, I need to confirm the correctness of this papertrail, the linage also leads to Scotland, more specific Killin.

The noble line in question is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Grey_of_Powis

I also have another noble line via my mothers side, but it leads to Scandinavian nobility:

http://www.roskildehistorie.dk/stamtavler/adel/Maanestjerne/Maanestjerne.htm

Arbogan
04-10-2015, 11:26 AM
tatar and chinese ancestry? Don't take offence my friend, but I think you're reading alot into these tools.

evon
04-10-2015, 02:50 PM
tatar and chinese ancestry? Don't take offence my friend, but I think you're reading alot into these tools.

Actually that part of my distant ancestry was discovered by David W (Generalissimo/Polako), but it is likely the same ancestry, that traces back to China by way of Tatars in Russia, and my best guess at this moment is that it came to Norway by way of Romani migrations, as we know they mixed with Tatars in Balkan, or rather with slaves of Tatars, which were themselves likely Tatars..But this is very distant, the shared Tatar ancestry is likely around 500 years old, I dont think it is more recent than that, and the Chinese shared ancestry could be 1000 years old or even older, who knows? But due to the randomness of DNA inheritance, it seems I still carry some of that shared DNA, which is via my maternal side.

Arbogan
04-10-2015, 02:59 PM
Actually that part of my distant ancestry was discovered by David W (Generalissimo/Polako), but it is likely the same ancestry, that traces back to China by way of Tatars in Russia, and my best guess at this moment is that it came to Norway by way of Romani migrations, as we know they mixed with Tatars in Balkan, or rather with slaves of Tatars, which were themselves likely Tatars..But this is very distant, the shared Tatar ancestry is likely around 500 years old, I dont think it is more recent than that, and the Chinese shared ancestry could be 1000 years old or even older, who knows? But due to the randomness of DNA inheritance, it seems I still carry some of that shared DNA, which is via my maternal side.

And you share that with you mother and her family aswell? How would a tatar end up in norway.

evon
04-10-2015, 03:40 PM
And you share that with you mother and her family aswell? How would a tatar end up in norway.

Like I said, my best guess is that it came with Romani migrations into Scandinavia, as Romani have some Tatar ancestry that they picked up in the Balkans. The common Chinese/Tatar ancestry was found in both myself and my maternal uncle, but not my paternal aunt, so it is via my maternal side, I am not sure if I had tested my maternal grandmother at the time of this discovery, but since I have Romani ancestry via both my maternal grandmother and maternal grandfathers side, this shared ancestry could have come from either one, or both? Either way, it came from my maternal side.

Arbogan
04-11-2015, 06:25 PM
Like I said, my best guess is that it came with Romani migrations into Scandinavia, as Romani have some Tatar ancestry that they picked up in the Balkans. The common Chinese/Tatar ancestry was found in both myself and my maternal uncle, but not my paternal aunt, so it is via my maternal side, I am not sure if I had tested my maternal grandmother at the time of this discovery, but since I have Romani ancestry via both my maternal grandmother and maternal grandfathers side, this shared ancestry could have come from either one, or both? Either way, it came from my maternal side.

Tatars from what I understand are a muslim ethnicity. Muslims very rarely engage in outmarriage. I can attest to that. From what I recall reading about austen henry layard, he was meet with suspiciousness and was called a feranghi(foreigner, corrupted cognate from frank) and kuffar when he was visting muslim areas in SW Iran and Iraq. And tatars as far I've read, where never present in balkans as a recorded demograph. I think if you do have steppe-ural ancestry, it's more likely to be from a source like mordivins or other uralic peoples. As for romanis. Correct me if i'm wrong weren't the known population in scandinavia mostly settled in finland?

evon
04-11-2015, 08:00 PM
Tatars from what I understand are a muslim ethnicity. Muslims very rarely engage in outmarriage. I can attest to that. From what I recall reading about austen henry layard, he was a meet with suspiciousness and was called a ferangi(foreigner, corrupted cognate from frank) and kuffar when he was visting muslim areas in SW Iran and Iraq. And tatars as far I've read, where never present in balkans as a recorded demograph. I think if you do have steppe-ural ancestry, it's more likely to be from a source like mordivins or other uralic peoples. As for romanis. Correct me if i'm wrong weren't the known population in scandinavia mostly settled in finland?

First of all, not all Tatars are muslims, just like not all Romani are Christian, some Romani are muslims etc.

Secondly the proposed mixing between Romani and Tatar peoples happened when both these peoples were slaves to Romanian lords, so dont think these slaves had much of a choice in the matter, you can read about it here if you want more info on the matter: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/29790296?uid=3738744&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21105965785921

Thirdly, Tatars live all over Eurasia, from China in the East to Poland in the West, those Tatars that lived in Romania could be of any geographical background, they had been slaves of the former Golden horde, but were now slaves of the Romanian bayans whom took over Romania/Moldova from the Golden horde, but they are recorded as being Tatars, prior to their assimilation into the larger Romani population.

Romani peoples have migrated and settled all over Europe:
https://reportingliveukraine.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/map.jpg
https://reportingliveukraine.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/map.jpg


And local terms:
4314
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Romanis-historical-distribution.png



My own ancestry is a mixture of Romanisćl and Finnish kale, as all Norwegian Romani are a mixture of these two groups, and one of my grandmothers closest Romani DNA relatives is infact a Finnish kale, while we also have numerous Norwegian Romani DNA relatives, as well as Romani from Romania, Russia, Hungary etc, but these are all via my maternal grandmother (Her grandmother was Romani) and maternal grandfather (His mother was Romani), whom both have Romani ancestry, as is visible in church records and such...

MitchellSince1893
04-11-2015, 10:33 PM
...
My own ancestry is a mixture of Romanisćl and Finnish kale, as all Norwegian Romani are a mixture of these two groups, and one of my grandmothers closest Romani DNA relatives is infact a Finnish kale, while we also have numerous Norwegian Romani DNA relatives, as well as Romani from Romania, Russia, Hungary etc, but these are all via my maternal grandmother (Her grandmother was Romani) and maternal grandfather (His mother was Romani), whom both have Romani ancestry, as is visible in church records and such...

Sent you a PM

evon
04-21-2015, 04:55 PM
Maps are fun :)

Family connections via paper trail so far, Red = mothers side, Blue = Fathers side:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/europe3244.jpg

evon
07-17-2015, 09:45 AM
Got a new Iranian hit on the 10th chromosome, thought it would be Romani or Jewish in origin, but so far he dosnt match any of my other relatives, neither does he match the Jewish related matches on the same spot..

Iranian (Christian?)
3rd to Distant Cousin
0.15% shared, 1 segment
H6a1b J2a1a

His name sounds Christian, but he has an allot of middle eastern and such Jewish matches mixed with Christian and Muslim matches...Jewish Iranian?

Helgenes50
07-17-2015, 10:00 AM
Got a new Iranian hit on the 10th chromosome, thought it would be Romani or Jewish in origin, but so far he dosnt match any of my other relatives, neither does he match the Jewish related matches on the same spot..

Iranian (Christian?)
3rd to Distant Cousin
0.15% shared, 1 segment
H6a1b J2a1a

His name sounds Christian, but he has an allot of middle eastern and such Jewish matches mixed with Christian and Muslim matches...Jewish Iranian?

Evon,

To understand better your different results
How many générations back, is your nearest Romani ancestor ?
Thanks

evon
07-17-2015, 10:28 AM
Evon,

To understand better your different results
How many générations back, is your nearest Romani ancestor ?
Thanks

Like this for the Romani and known Jewish lines via papertrail:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Screenshot%20from%202015-07-17%20122020.png

evon
07-17-2015, 10:39 AM
A quick google round gave me either Muslim or Sephardic Jewish origin for the surname, and the first name being derived from an Ancient Roman name. He was born in Teheran with family locations in Markazi Province and Isfahan Province.

Helgenes50
07-17-2015, 11:00 AM
Like this for the Romani and known Jewish lines via papertrail:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Screenshot%20from%202015-07-17%20122020.png

It's very recent and in your case all the South Asian is diluted ( at 23andme), I thought that it was more distant.
The proof that the autosomes decrease very quickly

evon
07-17-2015, 06:24 PM
It's very recent and in your case all the South Asian is diluted ( at 23andme), I thought that it was more distant.
The proof that the autosomes decrease very quickly

Depends, I think on average Nordic Romani would have around 1-5% South Asian using Ancestry Composition in its current state, and my grandmother has around 0.7%, so thats not too big a drop, but the real % is likely around 1-4% for her, and around 0.5-1% for me, as we have several segments with ties to South Asian, but which are not part of the calculation done by Ancestry Composition..But it is also worth keeping in mind that Nordic Romani like all Romani groups, have also Balkanite and Middle Eastern DNA etc as part of the ingroup DNA signature, and my grandmother also get 0.5% East European using current Ancestry Composition calculation, which is from the same source.. Our biggest DNA segment match with other Norwegian Romani are at around 35cM and 21.6cM with Finnish Kale, but on average we get around 15-10cM with Romani in Balkan...Unfortunately due to Jewish ancestry on my fathers side, its very hard to tell them apart when looking at my own results alone, as they are often very similar in geographic placement and so on..

evon
07-17-2015, 06:38 PM
I think my Iranian cousin must have recent Jewish ancestry as his score seems high:

His results:

Default:

Not declared Ashkenazi Jewish
2.9%–3.5%
Declared Ashkenazi Jewish
1.0%–1.6%

5cM + colonies:

Not declared Ashkenazi Jewish
12.6%–13.3%
Declared Ashkenazi Jewish
2.1%–4.3%

Most of the larger Iranian segments on default are all Jewish, plus a "Russian-Romanian segment"..My guess is he has recent Jewish ancestry and its our common ancestry...

Arbogan
07-17-2015, 08:46 PM
Got a new Iranian hit on the 10th chromosome, thought it would be Romani or Jewish in origin, but so far he dosnt match any of my other relatives, neither does he match the Jewish related matches on the same spot..

Iranian (Christian?)
3rd to Distant Cousin
0.15% shared, 1 segment
H6a1b J2a1a

His name sounds Christian, but he has an allot of middle eastern and such Jewish matches mixed with Christian and Muslim matches...Jewish Iranian?

I think this is a clear example of false signalling. The likehood of this is extremely unlikely. I also have many of these ambiguous matches from Europe sharing similar segment sizes(they range between 0.10 and 0.20). But I highly doubt that they're signals for actual shared lineages. My rule of thumb is that matches with less than 2 segments, and matches from distant locations are false signalling. Matches with that are .30% and above, with multiple segments are usually robust enough to assume shared ancestry. The probability of someone of Iranian descent or even Persian-Jewish descent transferring their lineages to Norway, within a time frame which where it would be Detactable, is extremely low. As much as I respect your fascination with these ambiguous connections. I'd advise caution when making assumptions based on such dubious unsubstantiated findings.

evon
07-17-2015, 09:06 PM
I think this is a clear example of false signalling. The likehood of this is extremely unlikely. I also have many of these ambiguous matches from Europe sharing similar segment sizes(they range between 0.10 and 0.20). But I highly doubt that they're signals for actual shared lineages. My rule of thumb is that matches with less than 2 segments, and matches from distant locations are false signalling. Matches with that are .30% and above, with multiple segments are usually robust enough to assume shared ancestry. The probability of someone of Iranian descent or even Persian-Jewish descent transferring their lineages to Norway, within a time frame which where it would be Detactable, is extremely low. As much as I respect your fascination with these ambiguous connections. I'd advice caution when making assumptions based on such dubious unsubstantiated findings.

Its not improbable to me, and I have several examples of segments coming from my maternal grandmother which is reduced by 50% in my own DNA, and considering how little DNA one find within the general Jewish genepool, its easy to see how this particular segment could have arrived in Norway during the middle of the 1730's within the DNA of a Jewish person migrating from East Prussia. Looking at Jews in general, they tend to match with most other Jews, even across wast distances and time spans, due to the small size of their collective genepool. You see something similar in Romani peoples, which have been an active participant of endogamy for hundred of years, which is why they have managed to pass on South Asian DNA in large quantities, despite having been present in Europe for near 1000 years now, and similarly to Jews, if you match one, you are bound to match allot of them on a single segment because of this tiny genepool..

Arbogan
07-17-2015, 09:14 PM
Its not improbable to me, and I have several examples of segments coming from my maternal grandmother which is reduced by 50% in my own DNA, and considering how little DNA one find within the general Jewish genepool, its easy to see how this particular segment could have arrived in Norway during the middle of the 1730's within the DNA of a Jewish person migrating from East Prussia. Looking at Jews in general, they tend to match with most other Jews, even across wast distances and time spans, due to the small size of their collective genepool. You see something similar in Romani peoples, which have been an active participant of endogamy for hundred of years, which is why they have managed to pass on South Asian DNA in large quantities, despite having been present in Europe for near 1000 years now, and similarly to Jews, if you match one, you are bound to match allot of them on a single segment because of this tiny genepool..

At 1 segment 0.16% it's unlikely to mean anything. I have 10-15 of all shared with people of certified northern European and southern European ancestry. It doesn't mean I'm related to any of them. The lack of genetic diversity amongst jews, doesn't explain it either. I have no idea why you cling to the notion of exotic ancestry. Frankly, with all due respect, If I a was romani, I'd find such ancestry-fetishizing pursuits insulting.

evon
07-17-2015, 09:23 PM
at 1 segment 0.16% it's unlikely to mean anything. I have 10-15 of them all of northern European and southern European ancestry. It doesn't mean I'm related to any of them. The lack of genetic diversity amongst jews, doesn't explain it either.

You are free to have that opinion, but unless you have any good theories to explain them all away, it is just an opinion.. And of course a small genepool equals more interconnection, it ensures that any given segment will be shared by more people within that genepool, regardless of geographical placement of individuals within that genepool, and it is also why Ashkenazi jews as an example have so many shared hereditary illnesses, because the small genepool raises the risk of getting them as a product of that limited genepool.

It is also why Romani peoples have links to India and Pakistan even though the exodus was around 1000 years ago..Similar with Icelandic people, they are all related due to living nearly isolated on an island for around 800 years, and thus they will have a high number of connections to each other..

Arbogan
07-17-2015, 09:38 PM
Nevertheless it doesn't justify your claims of Romani, Jewish or any other remote ancestry. As much as it's entertaining, and fascinating to play around with ideas of exotic ancestry. It's also a rather demeaning prospect.

evon
07-17-2015, 10:59 PM
Nevertheless it doesn't justify your claims of Romani, Jewish or any other remote ancestry. As much as it's entertaining, and fascinating to play around with ideas of exotic ancestry. It's also a rather demeaning prospect.


Ehm, Its nothing exotic or remote with regards to the Romani part of my ancestry, my great grandmother was after all a Romani, and the Romani community in Norway are like other Norwegians in most respects, so hardly exotic, unless you count country/ballad music enthusiast as exotic :violin:

Romani singer from Norway (also I not my cup of tea at all):

https://youtu.be/0M8-EFLZeTY

With regards to the Jewish ancestry, it is as distant as is English to many Americans, but it dosnt change the fact that its there, both via paper trail and DNA..

If you are only out to troll I would suggest you do it somewhere else, or perhaps come up with a good theory for why you are right and I am wrong..But we both know that wont happen at this point :wacko:

Arbogan
07-17-2015, 11:30 PM
Ehm, Its nothing exotic or remote with regards to the Romani part of my ancestry, my great grandmother was after all a Romani, and the Romani community in Norway are like other Norwegians in most respects, so hardly exotic, unless you count country/ballad music enthusiast as exotic :violin:

Romani singer from Norway (also I not my cup of tea at all):

https://youtu.be/0M8-EFLZeTY

With regards to the Jewish ancestry, it is as distant as is English to many Americans, but it dosnt change the fact that its there, both via paper trail and DNA..

If you are only out to troll I would suggest you do it somewhere else, or perhaps come up with a good theory for why you are right and I am wrong..But we both know that wont happen at this point :wacko:

Trolling? Not at all. You might not be aware of it yourself. But it's a real social phenomenon addressed by sociologists and anthropologists:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/us/12genes.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0
A north-american variety of it is called the native-american princess syndrome. In your case you might have confirmed ancestry. In many cases western people make unwarranted claims to have remote ancestry. Out of the "exotic" factor.

AnnieD
07-18-2015, 01:13 AM
Delete.

evon
07-18-2015, 11:14 AM
Trolling? Not at all. You might not be aware of it yourself. But it's a real social phenomenon addressed by sociologists and anthropologists:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/us/12genes.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0
A north-american variety of it is called the native-american princess syndrome. In your case you might have confirmed ancestry. In many cases western people make unwarranted claims to have remote ancestry. Out of the "exotic" factor.

You are trolling, because you use rhetoric and unfounded opinion to try and undermine DNA connections, which is like saying the earth is flat because you think so, contrary to scientific evidence. We are talking about testable DNA connections, not cultural or even linguistic for that matter, which are harder to test and verify.

I am not trying to claim Jewish heritage or Romani heritage for that matter, there is an important difference between heritage and ancestry that you fail to understand here. Having Romani and Jewish ancestry dosnt make me a Romani or Jew, neither do I want to be identified as such. I am what I am regardless of what any DNA test or paper trail might teach you and the difference is found in wanting to uncover your ancestral past, of course the discoveries will effect your personal picture of yourself, but not to the point of wanting to identify with any given ethnic group that you have ancestry from, as I belong to a Norwegian ethnic group already.

And I doubt the concept of noble savage and its exoticism co-runner belong in this discussion, because I am an outspoken critic of Romani beggars from Balkan in Norway, which would run contrary to any such idealism.

So unless you have actual evidence to present why these DNA connections are not to be trusted, I have no reason to take you anymore serious than I would a common troll..

Arbogan
07-18-2015, 06:08 PM
You are trolling, because you use rhetoric and unfounded opinion to try and undermine DNA connections, which is like saying the earth is flat because you think so, contrary to scientific evidence. We are talking about testable DNA connections, not cultural or even linguistic for that matter, which are harder to test and verify...
Rhetoric from observance at social phenomenon. It's not unfounded. It's observable, and it's quantifiable, as many people display such behaviour. It's frequently written about by sociologists dealing with topics such as race, ancestry, identity. So levying the accusation of trolling(such claims serve to undermine your own counter-argument) doesn't change the matter of fact. And contrary to what you state. You present no hard evidence. You point to some mutations of dubious value, and chose to interpretate it as real ancestry. When they could be anything. Such as super-conserved areas of dna, or coincidental mutational areas. Which are found within science, frequently. Had we taken every strip of shared allele as real ancestry, there would an impossible migratory pattern.





And I doubt the concept of noble savage and its exoticism co-runner belong in this discussion, because I am an outspoken critic of Romani beggars from Balkan in Norway, which would run contrary to any such idealism.
Let me say, this doesn't help your cause my friend.




So unless you have actual evidence to present why these DNA connections are not to be trusted, I have no reason to take you anymore serious than I would a common troll..
Because they're statistically insignificant. And hundreds of thousands of 23andme customers have them, without them having any real value pertaining to actual ancestral ties. And because 23andme geneticists that design their tools, warn people not to look too much into allele segments that are inbetween 5-6 centimorgans.

You might think this is hostile for it's bluntness. But this an earnest, sincere request for you to re-examine your notions on this.

Anyway I apologize if I seem a bit polemical. Which is not my intention. My intention is to persuade you to take the countries of ancestries tool with a grain of salt.

evon
07-18-2015, 08:58 PM
Rhetoric from observance at social phenomenon. It's not unfounded. It's observable, and it's quantifiable, as many people display such behaviour. It's frequently written about by sociologists dealing with topics such as race, ancestry, identity. So levying the accusation of trolling(such claims serve to undermine your own counter-argument) doesn't change the matter of fact. And contrary to what you state. You present no hard evidence. You point to some mutations of dubious value, and chose to interpretate it as real ancestry. When they could be anything. Such as super-conserved areas of dna, or coincidental mutational areas. Which are found within science, frequently. Had we taken every strip of shared allele as real ancestry, there would an impossible migratory pattern.

Because they're statistically insignificant. And hundreds of thousands of 23andme customers have them, without them having any real value pertaining to actual ancestral ties. And because 23andme geneticists that design their tools, warn people not to look too much into allele segments that are inbetween 5-6 centimorgans.


You buttress your argument by relaying on so called soft sciences, when the argument is about DNA, a hard science, that is part of the rhetoric.

Saying that segments via Countries of Ancestry is bogus because they are statistical insignificant is not presenting any proof for your argument, its merely adding a few more words without content, so again, trolling. If you want to back up the statement you need to present me with some actual evidence to support your claim, otherwise it is as I have said a few times now, just your opinion, and nothing else..where is the evidence for your claim?

And with regards to evidence for how segments have meaning, you can have a look at this chart I made from a segment located at approximately the same spot as the "Iranian" segment:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vwl7.jpg

It goes a long way in demonstrating how a segment is connected between various peoples of shared ancestry, thus pointing towards a potential "origin" for that segment, and there are countless such examples, with segments that show clear affinity between Norwegians, to Romani or British oriented segments etc. Had the segments been random and insignificant as you suggest, then people from ancestry with no known common connection would show up there, such as West Africans or Han Chinese to make an example, but that likely rarely happens, and infact I have never seen it.

Another thing, there is a big difference between a few odd segments at 5-6cM and multiple segments with a clear pattern at around 10cM as shown above. We also have odd segments with people in Iran and the Levant, but I have not mentioned them here because I have not observed any particular patterns to their location and possible overlapping with other similar located segments. But still, 5cM should not be dismissed simply due to its size, as one can inherent a small part of a larger segment from one of your parents, so if your mother had a segment of Norwegian origin at around 25cM, you could end up with 5cM, but that dosnt make it bogus.




You might think this is hostile for it's bluntness. But this an earnest, sincere request for you to re-examine your notions on this.

Anyway I apologize if I seem a bit polemical. Which is not my intention. My intention is to persuade you to take the countries of ancestries tool with a grain of salt.

Bluntness or honesty does not make your argument correct, and I am well aware of the dangers of reading too much into segments and admixture for that matter, but I have been doing this DNA business for nearly 10 years now, and have amassed allot of evidence for these claims, which are not based solely on Countries of Ancestry, but have been collected via several parties such as FTDNA, 23andme, Eurogenes and via paper trail, and I am not wrong in claiming Romani ancestry, and I feel increasingly certain about the Jewish ancestry also...

PS: you might want to look at your own ethnic claim ;)

Arbogan
07-18-2015, 10:41 PM
You buttress your argument by relaying on so called soft sciences, when the argument is about DNA, a hard science, that is part of the rhetoric
It was complimentary sociological perspective. It wasn't my main argument.



Saying that segments via Countries of Ancestry is bogus because they are statistical insignificant is not presenting any proof for your argument, its merely adding a few more words without content, so again, trolling. If you want to back up the statement you need to present me with some actual evidence to support your claim, otherwise it is as I have said a few times now, just your opinion, and nothing else..where is the evidence for your claim?
You're accusing me of being verbose and having arguments without proof. You're not meeting my argument or my reasoning at all. You haven't addressed my points.
My points were:

A. Similar mutations can happen across the board and arise in different genetic demographs without any necessary hereditary relationships. F.ex Sub saharan Africans can have the same genes that code for dark skin as an unrelated population. Similarly, recent mutations can occur in individual families without them being related to each other. It's called

B. Some areas of DNA can be archaic, and are not subject to recombination the same way as other areas within DNA. Hence hyperconserved.

If you don't believe me, just look at any encyclopedia regarding genetic mutations, I mean damn, Even Wikipedia will suffice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation#Spontaneous_mutation


What's been your counter argument so far?


And with regards to evidence for how segments have meaning, you can have a look at this chart I made from a segment located at approximately the same spot as the "Iranian" segment:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vwl7.jpg


It goes a long way in demonstrating how a segment is connected between various peoples of shared ancestry, thus pointing towards a potential "origin" for that segment, and there are countless such examples, with segments that show clear affinity between Norwegians, to Romani or British oriented segments etc. Had the segments been random and insignificant as you suggest, then people from ancestry with no known common connection would show up there, such as West Africans or Han Chinese to make an example, but that likely rarely happens, and infact I have never seen it.?
How is that hard evidence? It ambiguous and open to interpretation. Do you know how many Jewish and northern-west European segments matches I have on 23andme? They must be nearing in the high 2 digits. I even have europeans and European americans of assorted ancestry in relative finder, with small percentages with single segments.

What is more likely. That I have a European ancestor, who made it all the way to an ambiguous largely unknown area in the Iranian plateau, or vice versa. Or that there are some small mutational commonalities between west-Eurasians?

I could probably make my own diagram chart, showing my inferential supposed European/jewish ancestor via different connections.

The fact that your relationship diagram shows, relationships across the board also doesn't mean anything, at 5 CM. How many segments do you actually share with them?



Another thing, there is a big difference between a few odd segments at 5-6cM and multiple segments with a clear pattern at around 10cM as shown above. We also have odd segments with people in Iran and the Levant, but I have not mentioned them here because I have not observed any particular patterns to their location and possible overlapping with other similar located segments..
According to your own diagram, the only significant segments, is from a French/Corsican and a French/Tunisian. The rest are questionable.



But still, 5cM should not be dismissed simply due to its size, as one can inherent a small part of a larger segment from one of your parents, so if your mother had a segment of Norwegian origin at around 25cM, you could end up with 5cM, but that dosnt make it bogus.
Here is where we disagree.





Bluntness or honesty does not make your argument correct, and I am well aware of the dangers of reading too much into segments and admixture for that matter, but I have been doing this DNA business for nearly 10 years now, and have amassed allot of evidence for these claims, which are not based solely on Countries of Ancestry, but have been collected via several parties such as FTDNA, 23andme, Eurogenes and via paper trail, and I am not wrong in claiming Romani ancestry, and I feel increasingly certain about the Jewish ancestry also...

Appeal to authority won't help you here. I've been reading about genetics and involved in my own personal research for 5 years aswell. And have participated in 3 tests official tests. That doesn't make me an geneticist or biologist, who can asses hereditary genetics. With all due respect. You've been doing what everyone who has an interest an amateur interest in genetics. Interpretating and inferring. I don't know why you become defensive over someone challenging your notion.





PS: you might want to look at your own ethnic claim ;)
Not sure what you're implying here. So I'm not sure what I've said that is notable or absurd. If you're referring to my self designation, as Kassitic. The kassites were present in lorestan, ilam and Kermanshah. All their known excavated settlements and graves were there. If they had left any genetic imprints, it would have been there. I only need samples from that time period to confirm it.


anyway, don't take this as an attack. I'm just challenging your notions.

evon
07-18-2015, 11:54 PM
You're accusing me of being verbose and having arguments without proof. You're not meeting my argument or my reasoning at all. You haven't addressed my points.
My points were:

A. Similar mutations can happen across the board and arise in different genetic demographs without any necessary hereditary relationships. F.ex Sub saharan Africans can have the same genes that code for dark skin as an unrelated population. Similarly, recent mutations can occur in individual families without them being related to each other. It's called

B. Some areas of DNA can be archaic, and are not subject to recombination the same way as other areas within DNA. Hence hyperconserved.

If you don't believe me, just look at any encyclopedia regarding genetic mutations, I mean damn, Even Wikipedia will suffice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation#Spontaneous_mutation

Those spontaneous mutations that happen are the main mechanism for evolution, and they happen over a very slow time frame (1000's of years), and is not very relevant regarding the debate on segment sharing as is the case here. As first off, if a gene mutates it is just one gene, while the segment minimum included in Countries of Ancestry consists of 750 SNP's, thus we are talking about allot of genes, and the chance that a whole segment visible via Countries of Ancestry is a random mutation is extremely low, so low its a nonsense concept to suggest it as you do.

With regards to the so called "cold spots", they are real, but this is not one of them last I checked, I know there is one on the 6th chromosome, but I have not observed or heard anyone mention one on the 10th chromosome.





How is that hard evidence? It ambiguous and open to interpretation. Do you know how many Jewish and northern-west European segments matches I have on 23andme? They must be nearing in the high 2 digits. I even have europeans and European americans of assorted ancestry in relative finder, with small percentages with single segments.

What is more likely. That I have a European ancestor, who made it all the way to an ambiguous largely unknown area in the Iranian plateau, or vice versa. Or that there are some small mutational commonalities between west-Eurasians?

I could probably make my own diagram chart, showing my inferential supposed European/jewish ancestor via different connections.

The fact that your relationship diagram shows, relationships across the board also doesn't mean anything, at 5 CM. How many segments do you actually share with them?

Just because you cant see the clear pattern, dosnt mean it is not there, I have observed that people from the Middle Eastern region usually get mostly Jewish related segment matches in Europe (including locations with historical Jewish presence such as Poland and Russia), and that is clearly not a coincidence, and the reason is obvious, Jews are originally Middle eastern and have historically had a strong presence in that part of the world. So if you have such matches in Europe, chances are that they represent gene flow from the Middle East into Europe via Jews, whats so incredible about that? Just like if you get matches in Saudi Arabia or Yemen etc, which could reflect migration of Arabic tribes with the advent of Islam, nothing shocking about that either..




According to your own diagram, the only significant segments, is from a French/Corsican and a French/Tunisian. The rest are questionable.


No, like I said, there is a difference between free interpretation and interpretation within a pattern as is the case with the diagram, it shows that if you triangulate between segments you can find a common connector between these matches, and the common element here is Jewish and Mediterranean focus, which is often the same. The size of a segment alone is not the biggest importance, the pattern is, but of course the larger it is, the more likely it is to be recent.







Appeal to authority won't help you here. I've been reading about genetics and involved in my own personal research for 5 years aswell. And have participated in 3 tests official tests. That doesn't make me an geneticist or biologist, who can asses hereditary genetics. With all due respect. You've been doing what everyone who has an interest an amateur interest in genetics. Interpretating and inferring. I can't help that you get defensive, that someone challenges the ideas you have constructed around paltry "evidence".

Not sure what you're implying here. So I'm not sure what I've said that is notable or absurd. If you're referring to my self designation, as Kassitic. The kassites were present in lorestan, ilam and Kermanshah. All their known excavated settlements and graves were there. If they had left any genetic imprints, it would have been there. I only need samples from that time period to confirm it.

The point was that if you are new to the DNA game, you might not have observed the data from enough angels to be able to see patterns that are there, hence many people scream eureka when they find a "strange" singular segment and base their investigation on that alone, while it is not what I have done, I have used the superb paper trail database we have in Norway which goes back to around 1500 for most branches, and have further complimented it with several DNA tests of many family members and have also used various tools for interpretation, which have over time unveiled various parts of my ancestry, as I would hate to get it wrong. Hence I usually double check everything over time. The Jewish part of my ancestry is the latest discovery I have mad in this regard, and I found a candidate via paper trail for that part of my ancestry, sadly I have not been able to track him further than Königsberg in East Prussia yet, but hopefully I will get beyond that point also, and my guess is that he is of Sephardic ancestry whom migrated due to the introduction of draconian laws on the Jewish community there during his early life, but the motivation for his migration is just a theory at the moment.

The Romani part of my ancestry is about as solid as one can get, and has been confirmed by the Romani community in Norway which do their own independent work in tracking "Lost" Romani children due to Norwegian assimilation policies during the last centuries. When I first started investigating the Romani ancestry I was under the impression that my great grandmother was a vagabond Norwegian, but did not know she was of a Romani family, as my grandmother called her a Gypsy, but I always took it with a grain of salt, with DNA tests and later with the help of the local Romani community in Norway, I learned that she belonged to one of the known Romani families, and they were happy to add our family to their own archives. The funny thing is that I was put on this track by looking at the DNA signature via my grandmother, whom is it turns out of another Romani family, whom has also been confirmed by the Romani community here, so both lines go back to two different Romani families, who were "united" in the form of my mother and so passed on to me.

Lets talk about the Kassites for a minute, if you would apply the same standards of inquiry to your own ancestry as you do on mine, you would quickly come to the conclusion that you can never figure out if you are related to them, because any result would be random and due to mutations that have nothing to do with ancestry, which is of course bullshit, but it seems to be what you believe...

Agamemnon
07-18-2015, 11:58 PM
Please everyone, tone this down. We can have this discussion without jumping at each other's throats.

evon
07-18-2015, 11:59 PM
Please everyone, tone this down. We can have this discussion without jumping at each other's throats.


Maybe it would be best if you create a separate thread for the subject of DNA data interpretation and Segment reliability, would not mind if others helped me here, as I seem to be talking to the wall ;)

Arbogan
07-19-2015, 01:13 AM
Those spontaneous mutations that happen are the main mechanism for evolution, and they happen over a very slow time frame (1000's of years), and is not very relevant regarding the debate on segment sharing as is the case here. As first off, if a gene mutates it is just one gene, while the segment minimum included in Countries of Ancestry consists of 750 SNP's, thus we are talking about allot of genes, and the chance that a whole segment visible via Countries of Ancestry is a random mutation is extremely low, so low its a nonsense concept to suggest it as you do....

According to who? I've never heard of there being thresholds for the acid bases for genes. 750 SNPs could cover multiple smaller genes or several larger genes. But its not outside of the range of genotypic patterns. In some cases... something as simple as radiation, carcinogenic compounds or compounds with mutagenic properties, can alter entire chromosomes. So why mutations or anomolies that are the size of 750 SNPs or of somewhat larger side. Arising out of mutations or random recombination, are impossible, is beyond me. I think most people have DNA alterations during their life-time due to enviromemtal reasons.

750 SNPs is tiny between, even 3000 snps is tiny. There are millions of them in the entire genome. 750/x000000 and you get the idea.

Besides the difference between populations on SNPs isnt the structure of the acid bases. Its the frequency of genotypes. So there are bound to be stretches of dna that overlap between individuals of different racial and ethnic groups despite overall genetic distance and differentiating. Its entirely plausible that someone of Middle Eastern descent can have stretches of DNA that have the same frequency predominantly found in europeans or a distant group without having inherited dna or sharing direct ancestry within the past thousands of years. Its perfectly within the realm of possibility especially, when were talking about multiple segments of 5 -7 cM. It could be random or simply natural selection.

If you havent noticed some people will score 0,10 to 0,90% on the calculator components formed from populations they have no genetic relationship to. Sometimes it can be put down to statistical nose, other times its a random genetic overlap.

Its way more plausible than the ridicules notion such as sharing an ancient jewish ancestor or jews acquiring genetic admixture from your ancestral population and transfering it to Ireland or Germany or Belarus. This scenerio might be plausible for people with long term contact with jewish populations in urban centers. But not for most.

This ridicules notion held by adherents to the idea that the entire world was experiencing constant global immigration. I remember you trying to argue that indians and middle eastern merchants interrmarried with with russians in transitional areas a while back.






Just because you cant see the clear pattern, dosnt mean it is not there, I have observed that people from the Middle Eastern region usually get mostly Jewish related segment matches in Europe (including locations with historical Jewish presence such as Poland and Russia), and that is clearly not a coincidence, and the reason is obvious, Jews are originally Middle eastern and have historically had a strong presence in that part of the world. So if you have such matches in Europe, chances are that they represent gene flow from the Middle East into Europe via Jews, whats so incredible about that? Just like if you get matches in Saudi Arabia or Yemen etc, which could reflect migration of Arabic tribes with the advent of Islam, nothing shocking about that either.

First of, Jews were a tiny population historically im the middle-east, and mostly settled in the levant. Secondly outside of urban centers(capital etc) their communities were statistically insignificant. Additionally their tradition of being endogamous and conservative, their ethno-religious based segregation. Makes the scenario you suggest very unlikely. That they'd carry small segments of 5 centimorgans, and share ancestry with someone from ancient and medieval pushti-i-kuh, much less someone from the modern day region. And then travel all the way to Europe. As "gene" flow is outside of likehood.

It is just extremely unlikely. Regardless of them being middle-eastern or not. Especially not considering that ashkenazis and sephardics had left middle-east nearly 2000 years ago. Unless we're looking at prehistory. Even then such connections wouldn't appear in IBD runs. Which what countries of ancestry essentiella is.

I mean that has to be the most ridicules inference I've seen in this argument so far. As if jewish immigration is some end all explanation for these phenomenon. When there are multiple factors that make this problematic.

The well-recorded immigration of arab tribes into central and northern west-asia is an entirely differwnt matter and under entirely different circumstances. Arabs came in waves. And as per arab tradition also keept records of their tribes origin and ancestors.






Lets talk about the Kassites for a minute, if you would apply the same standards of inquiry to your own ancestry as you do on mine, you would quickly come to the conclusion that you can never figure out if you are related to them, because any result would be random and due to mutations that have nothing to do with ancestry, which is of course bullshit, but it seems to be what you believe...

You're perfectly correct. If kassitic age graves were excavated , and their dna sequenced. They'd not resemble any modern population, and would come out divergent from any modern population in any of the DNA tool. However what little DNA they share with modern populations would be similar to the genetic profile found in west-Iranian populations. Specifically populations in central zagros and south-western iran. Perhaps they'd even show similar haplogroup patterns or precursors to modern day haplogroups in the region.
At the very least they'd show affinity to west iranian groups as theyre a part of a material culture present in the post neolithic era. Same way europeans show 10x the relationship to various prehistory europeans than any group from different world region

This is different than If I was looking for a connection with Irish people or pattern searching, over miniscule dubious segments I found in family tree dna or 23andme.



Maybe it would be best if you create a separate thread for the subject of DNA data interpretation and Segment reliability, would not mind if others helped me here, as I seem to be talking to the wall...
There is no need to be rude, because of our disagreements. We should continue this discussion without unnecessary pleasantries. Please refrain from immature insults, calling me a "troll" or "wall", is pointless and childish.

evon
07-19-2015, 11:27 AM
According to who? I've never heard of there being thresholds for the acid bases for genes. 750 SNPs could cover multiple smaller genes or several larger genes. But its not outside of the range of genotypic patterns. In some cases... something as simple as radiation, carcinogenic compounds or compounds with mutagenic properties, can alter entire chromosomes. So why mutations or anomolies that are the size of 750 SNPs or of somewhat larger side. Arising out of mutations or random recombination, are impossible, is beyond me. I think most people have DNA alterations during their life-time due to enviromemtal reasons.

750 SNPs is tiny between, even 3000 snps is tiny. There are millions of them in the entire genome. 750/x000000 and you get the idea.

Besides the difference between populations on SNPs isnt the structure of the acid bases. Its the frequency of genotypes. So there are bound to be stretches of dna that overlap between individuals of different racial and ethnic groups despite overall genetic distance and differentiating. Its entirely plausible that someone of Middle Eastern descent can have stretches of DNA that have the same frequency predominantly found in europeans or a distant group without having inherited dna or sharing direct ancestry within the past thousands of years. Its perfectly within the realm of possibility especially, when were talking about multiple segments of 5 -7 cM. It could be random or simply natural selection.

If you havent noticed some people will score 0,10 to 0,90% on the calculator components formed from populations they have no genetic relationship to. Sometimes it can be put down to statistical nose, other times its a random genetic overlap.

Its way more plausible than the ridicules notion such as sharing an ancient jewish ancestor or jews acquiring genetic admixture from your ancestral population and transfering it to Ireland or Germany or Belarus. This scenerio might be plausible for people with long term contact with jewish populations in urban centers. But not for most.

This ridicules notion held by adherents to the idea that the entire world was experiencing constant global immigration. I remember you trying to argue that indians and middle eastern merchants interrmarried with with russians in transitional areas a while back.


First of, Jews were a tiny population historically im the middle-east, and mostly settled in the levant. Secondly outside of urban centers(capital etc) their communities were statistically insignificant. Additionally their tradition of being endogamous and conservative, their ethno-religious based segregation. Makes the scenario you suggest very unlikely. That they'd carry small segments of 5 centimorgans, and share ancestry with someone from ancient and medieval pushti-i-kuh, much less someone from the modern day region. And then travel all the way to Europe. As "gene" flow is outside of likehood.

It is just extremely unlikely. Regardless of them being middle-eastern or not. Especially not considering that ashkenazis and sephardics had left middle-east nearly 2000 years ago. Unless we're looking at prehistory. Even then such connections wouldn't appear in IBD runs. Which what countries of ancestry essentiella is.

I mean that has to be the most ridicules inference I've seen in this argument so far. As if jewish immigration is some end all explanation for these phenomenon. When there are multiple factors that make this problematic.

The well-recorded immigration of arab tribes into central and northern west-asia is an entirely differwnt matter and under entirely different circumstances. Arabs came in waves. And as per arab tradition also keept records of their tribes origin and ancestors.


You're perfectly correct. If kassitic age graves were excavated , and their dna sequenced. They'd not resemble any modern population, and would come out divergent from any modern population in any of the DNA tool. However what little DNA they share with modern populations would be similar to the genetic profile found in west-Iranian populations. Specifically populations in central zagros and south-western iran. Perhaps they'd even show similar haplogroup patterns or precursors to modern day haplogroups in the region.
At the very least they'd show affinity to west iranian groups as theyre a part of a material culture present in the post neolithic era. Same way europeans show 10x the relationship to various prehistory europeans than any group from different world region

This is different than If I was looking for a connection with Irish people or pattern searching, over miniscule dubious segments I found in family tree dna or 23andme.


There is no need to be rude, because of our disagreements. We should continue this discussion without unnecessary pleasantries. Please refrain from immature insults, calling me a "troll" or "wall", is pointless and childish.



Sorry, but suggesting that a 11cM segment with 1200 SNP's is created by chance from radiation and another "mysterious" compounds is simply not good enough, and if it were true, it would render all DNA testing void, including YDNA and mtDNA SNP's. Which in turn would mean that any hope of finding any common DNA between you and Kassitic samples would be impossible, not due to the DNA being archaic, but because any matching you would find could be by chance and not real, regardless of how large it was....I dont even know why I bother replying to this circular argument, it makes no sense at all..

Jews have migrated all over the world and you can see this very clearly if you look at the CoA data of any Jew, here is the 5-+ cM segment matching for one of the Romanian Jews included in my diagram for chromosome 10:

Poland 25.2%
Ukraina 21.4%
Russia 20.7%
Hungary 8.2%
Germany 8.2%
Romania 8.0%
Belarus 7.9%
United Kingdom 5.9%
Lithuania 4.7%
Moldova 3.0%
Austria 1.9%
Slovakia 1.4%
Czech Republic 1.4%
Netherlands 1.2%
Argentina 1.2%
Italy 1.1%
Colombia 1.1%
France 1.0%
Bulgaria 0.9%
Spain 0.8%
Latvia 0.8%
United States 0.7%
Mexico 0.5%
Greece 0.5%
Cuba 0.5%
Turkey 0.4%
Sweden 0.3%
Estonia 0.3%
Bosnia and Herzegovina 0.3%
Syria 0.2%
Peru 0.2%
Macedonia 0.2%
Ireland 0.2%
Finland 0.2%
Croatia 0.2%
China 0.2%
Tunisia 0.1%
Puerto Rico 0.1%
Nicaragua 0.1%
Iceland 0.1%
Hong Kong 0.1%
Chile 0.1%
Brazil 0.1%
Bolivia 0.1%
Serbia 0.0%
Ecuador 0.0%

But of course, to you this must be rubbish, because any of these matches could be by chance, only subject to your own centrist interpretation ;) And it has been common through out history from Jews to jump ship and find a local girl/guy and become part of the majority population of any given area, as with my ancestor. Jews and other diaspora populations all do this, they mix with the local population, its a natural part of human behaviour, and it is the same reason we see mixing between Neanderthals and Humans etc in archaic times also..

You can have a look at the changes and movement of Jewish populations from the Middle East into Europe and elsewhere after the fall of the Roman Empire into the Middle ages:
https://www.academia.edu/11347962/Jewish_Networks_from_the_Fall_of_Rome_to_the_Perio d_of_the_Crusades

I would hardly call the number of Jews in the region insignificant, as can be seen from the paper provided:
https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/285d4y9gao4ckjs9/images/30-5fa24b7616.jpg


And with regards to Arabic tribes and records, they are subject to the same problems as you find all over the "Islamic world", namely that people tend to create fake ties to the ruling elite and religious personas, hence why so many claim to be related to Muhammed etc...So I would not trust them much, in fact I would go as far as saying that most are bogus...

You can read all about the tradition of creating fake family bonds after the arrival of Islam here:
https://www.academia.edu/7885583/MITHRAIC_SOCIETIES_FROM_BROTHERHOOD_IDEAL_TO_RELIG IONS_ADVERSARY

evon
07-25-2015, 10:37 AM
A long standing Croatian cousin of my aunt finally accepted my invite, had a look at his CoA and noticed he shares allot of the same cousins as my family, but the thing that caught my eye was that he also has a Afghan match, his is around 13cM and not overlapping with my aunts segment, but it gave me hope that I might be able to gather more information on this particular mystery of my aunts Afghan segment..So far the theory has been that it is linked to Jewish ancestry, but I need more information in order to figure it out, so I sent a sharing invite to his Afghan match and hopefully that will yield even more information :)

dp
07-25-2015, 04:17 PM
Here is a graph related to the IBD statistics given on Wikipedia (http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Identical_by_descent):
John Walden/Tim Janzen graphs (using GEDmatch data) (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jswdna/ibd/valueofphasingboth.jpg)

I can only phase my kit one way.
From looking at the graphic a 7cM/700 SNPs segment has on average a 50/50 chance of a true match.
The 100% C.I. for IBD minimum length is 15cM, but considering the shape of distributions I have no problem considering 11 or 12cM as potentially IBD --as long as I'm in the 90% C.I (prefer the 95% one though)
For small segments I rely on triangulation with close family members matching the same person on the same segment.
dp :-)

evon
07-25-2015, 04:32 PM
Here is a graph related to the IBD statistics given on Wikipedia (http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Identical_by_descent):
John Walden/Tim Janzen graphs (using GEDmatch data) (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jswdna/ibd/valueofphasingboth.jpg)

I can only phase my kit one way.
From looking at the graphic a 7cM/700 SNPs segment has on average a 50/50 chance of a true (single segment) match.
The IBD minimum length is 15cM, but considering the shape of distributions I have no problem considering 11 or 12cM as potentially IBD --as long as I'm in the 90% C.I (prefer the 95% one though)
For small segments I rely on triangulation with close family members matching the same person on the same segment.
dp :-)

Triangulation is key in verification of segments for me, its the best methodology per today that I am aware of, and the more peoples you can triangulate with, the better.

I dont think one should obsess about the size of any given segment, sure the larger it is the more likely it is to be recent (within a historical era), but since DNA is randomly reconfigured in each child a chart can only give you an approximation for that individual, and not be used as a manual for all. Hence if an Icelander created a chart based on his matches, the rates would likely be very different from a Turkish person, and so on, because the populations involved are so different in terms of gene pool size, which adding to the randomness involved in DNA inheritance makes any chart useless.

23andme and others have tried to calculate the ages of various segments in general, but they fail every time, as their methodology is fundamentally flawed in this respect.

dp
07-25-2015, 04:41 PM
23andme and others have tried to calculate the ages of various segments in general, but they fail every time, as their methodology is fundamentally flawed in this respect.
agreed. endogamy mergers segments back together. Speaking of phasing and triangulation; when I compare my parents related to my mom's the best I can figure is that one segment is from an ancestor from the early 1700s. I've suspected my dad was kin to her's, but parents related proved it :-) [that makes my mom my cousin]
dp :-)

evon
07-25-2015, 04:52 PM
agreed. endogamy mergers segments back together. Speaking of phasing and triangulation; when I compare my parents related to my mom's the best I can figure is that one segment is from an ancestor from the early 1700s. I've suspected my dad was kin to her's, but parents related proved it :-) [that makes my mom my cousin]
dp :-)

You should see how various branches on my family tree merge into eachother because of endogamy and "village marriages", scary stuff... :behindsofa:

dp
07-25-2015, 04:57 PM
You should see how various branches on my family tree merge into eachother because of endogamy and "village marriages", scary stuff... :behindsofa:
see this post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3380-Happy-Dance-thread-for-when-you-actually-find-paper-trail!&p=57511&viewfull=1#post57511) of mine. It only deals with one sources of multiple paths to one ancestor. I also am descended from (the same) Crawford's and Harrell's multiple ways
dp

Humanist
07-25-2015, 05:06 PM
You can have a look at the changes and movement of Jewish populations from the Middle East into Europe and elsewhere after the fall of the Roman Empire into the Middle ages:
https://www.academia.edu/11347962/Jewish_Networks_from_the_Fall_of_Rome_to_the_Perio d_of_the_Crusades

I would hardly call the number of Jews in the region insignificant, as can be seen from the paper provided:
https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/285d4y9gao4ckjs9/images/30-5fa24b7616.jpg

Not to go OT, but that is a terrific visual. Had not seen it before.

evon
07-25-2015, 05:17 PM
Not to go OT, but that is a terrific visual. Had not seen it before.

Can make a separate thread for that paper if you want, must be many who are interested in it? Just wish it also included other parts of Asia and not just Western regions, especially Central Asia as there was a large Jewish community in that region for a very long time..

Agamemnon
07-25-2015, 05:54 PM
Not to go OT, but that is a terrific visual. Had not seen it before.

Same here, suddenly all these Iranian Jewish matches of mine make sense :P

evon
07-29-2015, 03:40 PM
Made a mind-map of mine and my uncles matches on the mysterious 10th chromosome region I've been looking into lately, Orange matches are via CoA alone, Green and Pink have been triangulated using "Family Inheritance: Advanced":
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vddm.jpg
Looks like they are two separate segments that visually overlap in CoA, but which do not in fact overlap in reality, as can be seen by the lack of matching between several of them via triangulation. My guess is that one of the segments might be related to Romani ancestry via one of my Romani lines, while the other seem to be Jewish in nature, guess it is just coincidental that these two segments are so "close" to each other.

Helgenes50
07-29-2015, 07:20 PM
Made a mind-map of mine and my uncles matches on the mysterious 10th chromosome region I've been looking into lately, Orange matches are via CoA alone, Green and Pink have been triangulated using "Family Inheritance: Advanced":
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vddm.jpg
Looks like they are two separate segments that visually overlap in CoA, but which do not in fact overlap in reality, as can be seen by the lack of matching between several of them via triangulation. My guess is that one of the segments might be related to Romani ancestry via one of my Romani lines, while the other seem to be Jewish in nature, guess it is just coincidental that these two segments are so "close" to each other.

Evon,

At 23andMe*, with the CoA tutorial, I notice that a lot of my segments are shared with Swedish, that is not surprising as Normand. These segments are often shared with Finns, but not with Norwegians. Of course, I share with them other IBDs.

Is it the same in your case ?
I wonder if the difference between Eastern and Western Scandinavian is so important !!!

* we share our data at 23andMe, my pseudo Arvorigad

evon
07-29-2015, 07:47 PM
Evon,

At 23andMe*, with the CoA tutorial, I notice that a lot of my segments are shared with Swedish, that is not surprising as Normand. These segments are often shared with Finns, but not with Norwegians. Of course, I share with them other IBDs.

Is it the same in your case ?
I wonder if the difference between Eastern and Western Scandinavian is so important !!!

* we share our data at 23andMe, my pseudo Arvorigad

The reason why some Norwegians are relatively isolated from Eastern Nordic countries in terms of genepool is likely due to the physical geography of Norway:
http://www.tourchance-bg.eu/img/PROGRAMI/BIG_Scandinavia_13648204334527.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Biogeographical_regions_Scandinavian_mountains.png
Which as you can see is very mountainous, while in Denmark, Sweden and Finland you dont have the same geography and so they have had more interactions with each other. Also Sweden used to have a large Empire that included Finland and parts of the Baltic sea line, which resulted in settlement of Swedes in these parts, especially Finland, which has a large Swedish minority today.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Swedish_Empire_%281560-1815%29_en2.png

I have a few family lines that go to Eastern Norway, such as my Romani lines and so I do have some larger Swedish matches and my grandmother has some very large Finnish Romani matches, but compared to Eastern Norwegians in general we tend to have closer matches in UK and Ireland, as well as Iceland, Faeroe Islands and so on..

J Man
07-29-2015, 09:55 PM
I have always enjoyed following your findings evon and I commend you on the hard work that you have put into this. Not to take any of this away from you here but since the Scandinavian/Fennoscandian theme of this thread is strong I would like to mention that fairly recently my father and I received a rather large 30 cM segment match on chromosome 3 with a Finnish fellow at 23andme. :)

evon
07-29-2015, 10:20 PM
I have always enjoyed following your findings evon and I commend you on the hard work that you have put into this. Not to take any of this away from you here but since the Scandinavian/Fennoscandian theme of this thread is strong I would like to mention that fairly recently my father and I received a rather large 30 cM segment match on chromosome 3 with a Finnish fellow at 23andme. :)

Thanks, just ordered a R1b backbone SNP test from FTDNA which will hopefully solve my YDNA mystery :) So things are going forward....

How distant are your Finnish roots again?

I dont think I have any Finnish ancestry like you, but I do have connections with people whom are of at least partially Finnish ancestry.

My grandmother has a Finnish Kale cousin whom she shares 36cM with across two segments, with the largest segment being 21,6cM, but because the match is Romani with a small genepool, the segment may be much older than it appears just from looking at the cM. My guess is they share a common ancestor 3-400 years ago or so. The rest of us have a few Finnish segments around 8-11cM in CoA.

In DNA Relatives I have a few at around 0.14%, while my grandmothers top matches are around 0.48-0.25%, my maternal uncles largest are around 0.18% and my paternal aunts largest are at 0.07%...So my guess is we have connections with Finland via common Romani ancestry, maybe also via a Swedish line, but thats just speculation at this point..

vettor
07-29-2015, 10:44 PM
The reason why some Norwegians are relatively isolated from Eastern Nordic countries in terms of genepool is likely due to the physical geography of Norway:
http://www.tourchance-bg.eu/img/PROGRAMI/BIG_Scandinavia_13648204334527.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Biogeographical_regions_Scandinavian_mountains.png
Which as you can see is very mountainous, while in Denmark, Sweden and Finland you dont have the same geography and so they have had more interactions with each other. Also Sweden used to have a large Empire that included Finland and parts of the Baltic sea line, which resulted in settlement of Swedes in these parts, especially Finland, which has a large Swedish minority today.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Swedish_Empire_%281560-1815%29_en2.png

I have a few family lines that go to Eastern Norway, such as my Romani lines and so I do have some larger Swedish matches and my grandmother has some very large Finnish Romani matches, but compared to Eastern Norwegians in general we tend to have closer matches in UK and Ireland, as well as Iceland, Faeroe Islands and so on..

Do you know who held scania before the swedes?....I ask because the only very close mtDna match with myself is
Margareta Hokansdotter; b.1630; Ljungby Sweden

But because its claimed she is Finnish, I have my doubts

J Man
07-30-2015, 03:12 AM
Thanks, just ordered a R1b backbone SNP test from FTDNA which will hopefully solve my YDNA mystery :) So things are going forward....

How distant are your Finnish roots again?

I dont think I have any Finnish ancestry like you, but I do have connections with people whom are of at least partially Finnish ancestry.

My grandmother has a Finnish Kale cousin whom she shares 36cM with across two segments, with the largest segment being 21,6cM, but because the match is Romani with a small genepool, the segment may be much older than it appears just from looking at the cM. My guess is they share a common ancestor 3-400 years ago or so. The rest of us have a few Finnish segments around 8-11cM in CoA.

In DNA Relatives I have a few at around 0.14%, while my grandmothers top matches are around 0.48-0.25%, my maternal uncles largest are around 0.18% and my paternal aunts largest are at 0.07%...So my guess is we have connections with Finland via common Romani ancestry, maybe also via a Swedish line, but thats just speculation at this point..

My grandmother on my father's side of the family is/was 100% Finnish by ancestry. Now does it matter much exactly where an IBD segment match is located? Are matches on or near the centromere of a chromosome still real IBD segment matches?

evon
07-30-2015, 10:26 AM
Do you know who held scania before the swedes?....I ask because the only very close mtDna match with myself is
Margareta Hokansdotter; b.1630; Ljungby Sweden

But because its claimed she is Finnish, I have my doubts

Allot of Finnish peoples migrated to Sweden and Norway during the course of history, so she might very well be of Finnish ancestry:

- Forrest Fins:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Finns

- Kvens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kven_people

and others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Finns

Scania have traditionally been part of Denmark and their Swedish dialect is quite close to Danish and at times sounds a bit like my own Bergen dialect..



My grandmother on my father's side of the family is/was 100% Finnish by ancestry. Now does it matter much exactly where an IBD segment match is located? Are matches on or near the centromere of a chromosome still real IBD segment matches?

From memory those located on the edge are more recent than those towards the center, but I have never looked at this theory myself in order to prove or disprove it...

evon
07-30-2015, 07:29 PM
Ordered a copy of "A Dictionary of German-Jewish Surnames" by Lars Menk, in which my potential Jewish surname from Königsberg is listed, feeling very hopeful :)

http://www.avotaynu.com/books/Menk.htm

Will also look into the other German surnames in my family at the same time of course..Anyone want me to look up a surname for them that is found in their list, please let me know and I will do it when I get my hand on the book, which I expect will be at the end of next week...

evon
08-14-2015, 10:51 PM
Nice to hear my long acquired knowledge is benefiting others also, message from a relative of ours via CoA:


I have just found out that one of my great-grandmothers was Romani. I had no idea. Your analysis was unbelievably correct!

evon
08-24-2015, 10:04 PM
Finally started triangulating the first of a series of minor "confusing" segments, it has both a clear Romani and Jewish signature as far as I can tell, my best guess it is Jewish ancestry that has found its way into the Romani genepool a long time ago:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vq64.jpg

Will gather more information tomorrow..

evon
10-07-2015, 03:52 PM
My grandmother and mother just got what seems to be our first Indian Family finder cousin, now I need to figure out if it is via Romani or European colonial etc ancestry that we share a common ancestor..

evon
10-08-2015, 03:46 PM
My grandmother and mother just got what seems to be our first Indian Family finder cousin, now I need to figure out if it is via Romani or European colonial etc ancestry that we share a common ancestor..

She turned out to be everything except Indian, got the name from well traveled parents..haha wish people would stop using names from other cultures, makes my work more complicated.. :P

evon
11-27-2015, 02:12 PM
Lately I have been getting allot of Finnish matches via FTDNA, and a bunch of these Finnish matches seem to share a common segment with me via my fathers side on the 19th chromosome, but I wonder if this is a cold spot, as I remember some people saying they had allot of matches on the 19th chr, however I am not sure if it is this exact segment..

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/finnish.png

Anyone remember anything particular about this location?

Baltimore1937
12-06-2015, 02:14 AM
Yeah, I keep getting the occasional Finnish match at FTDNA, including my latest match. He is in Finland with a list of surnames that are entirely Finnish; nothing to do with me. He is on chromosome #15; 8 segments (I think it was).

evon
12-06-2015, 08:03 PM
Yeah, I keep getting the occasional Finnish match at FTDNA, including my latest match. He is in Finland with a list of surnames that are entirely Finnish; nothing to do with me. He is on chromosome #15; 8 segments (I think it was).

No chr 19 matches?

evon
12-16-2015, 06:24 PM
Got two new FTDNA Family Finder kits in the mail today, will test two of my siblings. Looking forward to exciting new discoveries in 2016..

evon
12-27-2015, 07:33 PM
Updated overview of my foreign and Romani connections via paper trail, I have edited out some closer names for privacy reasons..I also did not include noble lines, as they tend to be very mixed..

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38woe8-edited.png

It is worth noting that the Danish and German ancestry in my grandmother is usually labeled as "British/Irish" (42% at FTDNA and 30% at 23andme), which is erroneous as is obvious from her known ancestry..

ancestryfan1994
12-27-2015, 08:07 PM
Can we say that your family tree expresses how likely it is that people from Scandinavia on average will share ancestry with at least one other Scandinavian country?
Ive seen this quite a few times, where a swede for example has a Finnish grandparent, or a danish great grandparent etc. My Scandinavian matches range evenly among the main three (Norway,Sweden and Denmark), so i would imagine finding out the source of this if there ever was any Scandinavian ancestry would be extremely difficult.

psaglav
12-27-2015, 09:05 PM
This is an amazing thread. It inspired me to dig a little deeper with my matches; I get a lot of interesting 4th and 5th cousins but I wasn't able to match anything with paper trail as I have no paper trail that goes earlier than the 19th c. My grandmother's results should be back next month and my dad's sometime later so I'll probably get a better idea which ones to go after. I might ask for your help (ie. advice).

I do get a lot of Northeastern European/Baltic cousins and almost half of them seem to be Ashkenaz.

evon
12-27-2015, 10:17 PM
Can we say that your family tree expresses how likely it is that people from Scandinavia on average will share ancestry with at least one other Scandinavian country?
Ive seen this quite a few times, where a swede for example has a Finnish grandparent, or a danish great grandparent etc. My Scandinavian matches range evenly among the main three (Norway,Sweden and Denmark), so i would imagine finding out the source of this if there ever was any Scandinavian ancestry would be extremely difficult.

I think my family tree is common for western Norway, but I would not say it is common for Norway as a whole, as Norway is very regional, not allot of movement between the regions (My city is closer to Scotland then to Sweden as an example), I only have a few connections out side of western Norway, and they are via Romani and miners, so not typical..To summarize it, I have more connections to Denmark then I do with other parts of Norway. I think Norwegians around Oslo will have less Danish, Scottish/English matches, and more Swedish and Finnish etc..It all has to do with regionalism and different immigrant populations in the various regions.

This is how we traditionally divide Norway into regions, and ancestry usually reflect these divides:
http://www.ntnu.edu/documents/80943950/300974861/extras_regions_big/f558ee2d-a105-4300-bbb7-7c7a4da81bee?t=1369294552222?t=1369294552393
http://webspace.webring.com/people/au/um_7161/Voyager/LANDSDEL-ENGELSK.GIF
http://www.borealforest.org/world/images/scandinavia.jpg


This regionalism is also evident in the two Norwegian languages, Nynorsk and Bokmĺl:
http://www.lifeinnorway.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/481px-Norwegianmalforms.png



This is an amazing thread. It inspired me to dig a little deeper with my matches; I get a lot of interesting 4th and 5th cousins but I wasn't able to match anything with paper trail as I have no paper trail that goes earlier than the 19th c. My grandmother's results should be back next month and my dad's sometime later so I'll probably get a better idea which ones to go after. I might ask for your help (ie. advice).

I do get a lot of Northeastern European/Baltic cousins and almost half of them seem to be Ashkenaz.

I am glad you found it helpful :) Dont hesitate to ask if you want my opinion on anything..and yes it is possible to reconstruct your ancestry using only DNA results, especially if you have ancestry from a small genepool, like with Jews and Romani etc... If you go by segment matching, as you will likely have a bunch of matches on the same spot for such ethnicities, which is the best clue to such ancestry..

evon
01-07-2016, 09:37 PM
Think I might have just pushed my direct YDNA line back to the year 1519, but where to go from here...I know he was a big time land owner, but where did he get all that property from?

evon
01-16-2016, 04:23 PM
Felt inspired by this blog entry (http://www.jmhartley.com/HBlog/?p=462) regarding chromosome matches, so I thought I would have a look and compare our DNA in a similar way. I have previously noted that myself and several other Norwegians get allot of matches on Chr 19, which I assumed was due to a hot spot there, but it seems I might have been wrong, at least at first glanze.

Mine:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/moi.png

Dont really have the same excessive matches on a singular chr, however my grandmother does, which is likely due to her having more Romani related DNA:

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/besta.png

Need to do some more research, but I am stuck on a pc with only 4gb ram at the moment, so it is difficult to navigate the https://dnagen.net tool...Hopefully I will have 16gb by next weekend...

psaglav
01-16-2016, 10:01 PM
evon, this is one of the best tools I've seen so far! it's so visual and fun. I tend to understand visuals > numbers, so this'll be a great help once I figure it out in more detail.

and you have SO MANY matches!

evon
01-17-2016, 12:06 PM
evon, this is one of the best tools I've seen so far! it's so visual and fun. I tend to understand visuals > numbers, so this'll be a great help once I figure it out in more detail.

and you have SO MANY matches!

It is a nice tool, I only wish it would give you more options in how to organize and visualize the data, but in the future I am sure they will expand upon it..Most of my matches are generic Americans though, followed by Norwegians, Brits, Germans etc...

samirchergui
01-24-2016, 09:32 PM
hi
i think you are the one i am looking for. I tested for 23andme and I share four segment dna with someone may e you. Could you reply thanks a lot

evon
02-04-2016, 04:05 PM
Think I just found a pirate in my family tree :D

psaglav
02-04-2016, 04:21 PM
Awwww yisssss!

evon
02-04-2016, 04:30 PM
Can certainly explain my love for Rum :P haha.. Waiting for the details on this pirate individual from my second cousin...Think he was a pirate in the north sea region though, not the Caribbean..although I could be wrong of course..

psaglav
02-04-2016, 05:05 PM
I spent YEARS playing Pirates on my Amiga. I had the Caribbean map on my bedroom wall.

evon
02-04-2016, 09:39 PM
I spent YEARS playing Pirates on my Amiga. I had the Caribbean map on my bedroom wall.

Haha, We had two Amiga's, 1200 and 500 :D I also had Commodore 64 :D

Here is my pirate ancestor:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristoffer_Throndsen

Probably related to him via several lines it seems.. PS: recommend "Black sails" and "Cross Bones", both are good Pirate shows..

psaglav
02-04-2016, 10:06 PM
Haha, We had two Amiga's, 1200 and 500 :D I also had Commodore 64 :D

Here is my pirate ancestor:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristoffer_Throndsen

Probably related to him via several lines it seems.. PS: recommend "Black sails" and "Cross Bones", both are good Pirate shows..

Ah, let me look into those shows.

I had a C64 and an Amiga 500, too. Never got the 1200, moved on to PCs.

And your ancestor sounds cool! I only have an ancestor who was a (granted, very famous) wrestler. :)

evon
02-05-2016, 12:23 PM
My tree is shrinking :\ found two more ancestral lines going back to the same Scot, and another linage that goes back to another Scot/Englishman..So that makes the Scot my 4 x 11th great grandfather and the other guy 2 x 10th great grandfather..Feeling a bit inbred here...

dp
02-05-2016, 08:47 PM
the Amiga had (in 1990) better graphics than the PC. Reminds me of playing Dungeons and Dragons on an Amiga.
dp:-)

Ah, let me look into those shows.

I had a C64 and an Amiga 500, too. Never got the 1200, moved on to PCs.

And your ancestor sounds cool! I only have an ancestor who was a (granted, very famous) wrestler. :)

evon
03-08-2016, 09:53 PM
Got my brothers FF results, his Myorigins, on the top, is quite different from mine, as he lacks both South European and Finnish etc, but I suspect this is due to the clusters "flowing" into eachother and I hope that with the coming update of Myorigins, that our results will get more similar..As right now it is disappointingly vague and seemingly contradictory
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/bb.png

Although he lacks the close Norwegian Romani match I have, he likely has more Romani related DNA, as he has a very "unmixed" Finnish Kale match in common with my grandmother, in addition to another Norwegian Romani match..Still waiting for Gedmatch and DNA.Land, so still allot of data to look at in the coming days.....

evon
03-08-2016, 11:44 PM
Eurogenes K13 of me and my brother:

Brother:

1 North_Atlantic 51.9
2 Baltic 25.65
3 West_Med 15.04
4 West_Asian 1.87
5 East_Med 1.19
6 Amerindian 0.94
7 Sub-Saharan 0.93
8 Oceanian 0.8
9 South_Asian 0.71
10 East_Asian 0.56
11 Siberian 0.41


Me:

1 North_Atlantic 50.75
2 Baltic 28.74
3 West_Med 12.09
4 West_Asian 3.23
5 East_Med 2.28
6 East_Asian 1.85
7 Oceanian 0.47
8 Sub-Saharan 0.32
9 South_Asian 0.27



Dodecad K12b:

Brother:

1 North_European 49.56
2 Atlantic_Med 39.47
3 Gedrosia 7.93
4 Caucasus 1.78
5 Siberian 0.74
6 Northwest_African 0.22
7 Sub_Saharan 0.16
8 Southeast_Asian 0.15


Me:

1 North_European 51.37
2 Atlantic_Med 38.45
3 Gedrosia 9.14
4 Southeast_Asian 1.04

evon
03-09-2016, 11:26 AM
I have noted a few differences between us from running a good number of calculators, mainly that my brother usually get more south Asian, north Asian and African %, while I get more east/south east Asian.

I wanted to investigate the African % that keep popping up to see if this is real or noise..

Focusing on African components alone in a variety of calculators we got:

MDLP K13:
me: 0.43%
brother: 1.30%

Eurogenes K13:
me: 0.32%
brother: 0.93%

Harappa World:
me: 0%
brother: 0.24%

puntDNAL K12:
me: 0%
brother: 0.29%

Gedrosia K12:
me: 0%
brother: 0.17%

EthioHelix K10+French (listing French value instead):
me: 81.23%
brother: 81.43%

From these values I think the difference is minor and is likely noise, as well as due to him being on FTDNA and me being on 23andme V3 platform..The high African % via MDLP K13 is likely due to the fact that chromosome 21, where he gets most of the African % from, is only covered by 631 SNP's, while the other chromosomes are covered by between 1248 to 12867 SNP's.

evon
03-09-2016, 12:15 PM
Confirmed Norwegian, Swedish and Finnish Romani segments on FTDNA at 5cM+, for my grandmother (mormor), mother (mor), me (meg) and brother (bror):
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/mor_mormor.png
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/meg_bror.png

While I have more segment matches with Norwegian and Swedish Romani, those segments are more likely to be Nordic DNA and not Romani DNA as such, due to the fact that Norwegian and Swedish Romani have mostly Nordic DNA, while our Finnish Romani match (which my brother matches) has mostly Romani DNA. Therefore he most likely has more Romani related DNA..although I will need to look at our Gedmatch matches to confirm this theory..

evon
03-09-2016, 12:57 PM
Our top Romani related matches on Gedmatch following the default 7cM+ setting (meg = me, bror = brother, mor = mother and mormor = grandmother):
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/all_gedmatch.png

As can be seen, some of my matches are likely not via those peoples Romani ancestry, but possibly via their Nordic ancestry, although the lack in overlap between me and my mother for certain segment might be due to the difference between FTDNA and 23andme V3 chipset..

evon
03-20-2016, 09:53 PM
Myorigins V1.0 results for my family (Besta = Grandmother, Mamma = Mother, Storebror = Big brother, Lillebror = Little brother, and Meg = me:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/fam1.png

I really hope the up coming update for myOrigins this year will fix the "British" problem, among other issues as right now it is too crude and does not make a whole lot of sense...

evon
06-27-2016, 07:00 PM
I have been noticing a reoccurring pattern among my matches using the Gedmatch Triangulation tools, there seem to be allot of segment overlap between Russian, German, Italian and Jewish matches..Anyone else noticed the same among your matches? My guess is the majority of these are from my German ancestry, but they could reflect something interesting...Will do some more research..

evon
07-24-2016, 02:37 PM
Really hoping that I will be transferred to the new platform at the start of August, want to solve the riddle of these two matches and their possible Med/Jewish related signature. But perhaps I am being too optimistic and the new platform is still months away? While the Corsican have allot of Sephardic matches in Turkey and Egypt etc, the Iranian have allot of Jewish matches in Iraq, Iran etc...So these are interesting matches..

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Untitlejjjd.png

AJL
07-24-2016, 03:22 PM
I'm also not impressed by how long it's taken 23andme to transition older users, nor by how they use amalgamations of short and likely IBS segments to populate match lists, because match lists have caps.

The net result is it is reasonable to suspect something in excess of 50% of my 23andme matches are identical by population or state, and could never be traced, while at FTDNA the figure is more like 30%.

It's certainly possible that both these matching patterns in your case could pertain to Sephardi ancestry. If I go back to the earliest Ancestry Finder download I kept, from 2010, I had 3 matches from Iran, 3 from Iraq, 1 from Lebanon, 1 from Turkey, and on the other hand 5 from Spain and 3 from Italy (I am not counting French because I have maternal French ancestry). A similar distribution to yours.

At the time they ended Ancestry Finder I had 0 matches from Iran, 0 from Iraq, 0 from Lebanon, 4 from Turkey, 1 from Spain and 3 from Italy.

Between those two periods, lists changed constantly. I haven't listed matches in North Africa and elsewhere Sephardim settled in the former Ottoman Empire (e.g. Bulgaria, Greece) but if you have any of those they may go along with Sephardi ancestry.

evon
07-25-2016, 08:36 PM
I'm also not impressed by how long it's taken 23andme to transition older users, nor by how they use amalgamations of short and likely IBS segments to populate match lists, because match lists have caps.

The net result is it is reasonable to suspect something in excess of 50% of my 23andme matches are identical by population or state, and could never be traced, while at FTDNA the figure is more like 30%.

It's certainly possible that both these matching patterns in your case could pertain to Sephardi ancestry. If I go back to the earliest Ancestry Finder download I kept, from 2010, I had 3 matches from Iran, 3 from Iraq, 1 from Lebanon, 1 from Turkey, and on the other hand 5 from Spain and 3 from Italy (I am not counting French because I have maternal French ancestry). A similar distribution to yours.

At the time they ended Ancestry Finder I had 0 matches from Iran, 0 from Iraq, 0 from Lebanon, 4 from Turkey, 1 from Spain and 3 from Italy.

Between those two periods, lists changed constantly. I haven't listed matches in North Africa and elsewhere Sephardim settled in the former Ottoman Empire (e.g. Bulgaria, Greece) but if you have any of those they may go along with Sephardi ancestry.

I have not been able to triangulate the Iranian match yet, it is one of the things I am hoping to do when I get transferred to the new platform, as from what I understand you will be able to visually see where the segment matches from DNA relative lists are located. The only information I have is what he has supplied, and what I can tell from his AC and CoA before they closed that down and in CoA all his biggest segments 20-30cM etc were with Iraqi and Iranian jews..So I think he has Iranian jewish ancestry, but of course I dont know how our common segment figure into that. The Corsican match I have triangulated, at least as good as CoA would let me, and I made a matching "chart" of segments that overlapped using 23andme's advanced segment matching tool:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vwl7.jpg

Sadly none of these guys are on Gedmatch, I have tried to get them to join, but they have not responded to my query...So we just have to wait for a future transition to the new 23andme...

Here are the AC of these guys, it does not help of course...

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/gggttt.png

ancestryfan1994
07-26-2016, 10:53 AM
I think that its pretty evident that the Iranian has some jewish ancestry, i cant remember if you managed to find out which part of Iran he is from? maybe that would help put things in perspective, you may have touched upon it before.

evon
07-30-2016, 10:40 AM
I think that its pretty evident that the Iranian has some jewish ancestry, i cant remember if you managed to find out which part of Iran he is from? maybe that would help put things in perspective, you may have touched upon it before.

Sorry, didnt see the post until now.. There seems to be a glitch with the forum as I am not getting all the notifications...

As you can see from my earlier post, he has ancestry from Arak and Kashan region, in western Iran between Qom and Isfahan...My best guess is that one of his grandparents were born into a Jewish family, or something like that...

evon
08-22-2016, 07:29 PM
Anybody have an overview of X-Chromosome inheritance statistics? as my sister has a Tatar match on her X-Chromosome which I suspect is via shared Finnish ancestry, but would be great with some time estimates to work with..

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Screenshot%20from%202016-08-22%2021-23-21.png

anglesqueville
08-22-2016, 08:58 PM
I have not been able to triangulate the Iranian match yet, it is one of the things I am hoping to do when I get transferred to the new platform, as from what I understand you will be able to visually see where the segment matches from DNA relative lists are located. The only information I have is what he has supplied, and what I can tell from his AC and CoA before they closed that down and in CoA all his biggest segments 20-30cM etc were with Iraqi and Iranian jews..So I think he has Iranian jewish ancestry, but of course I dont know how our common segment figure into that. The Corsican match I have triangulated, at least as good as CoA would let me, and I made a matching "chart" of segments that overlapped using 23andme's advanced segment matching tool:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/New-Mind-Map_1w38vwl7.jpg

Sadly none of these guys are on Gedmatch, I have tried to get them to join, but they have not responded to my query...So we just have to wait for a future transition to the new 23andme...

Here are the AC of these guys, it does not help of course...

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/gggttt.png

I saw this very late. Not sure it's important: the "corsican-french" is very likely not a native corsican, with more than 68% north western european, and so few southern.

evon
08-22-2016, 09:31 PM
I saw this very late. Not sure it's important: the "corsican-french" is very likely not a native corsican, with more than 68% north western european, and so few southern.

His mother is French and his father is native Corsican from what I understand... Still waiting for 23andme to transfer me so I can start to look for overlapping segments among my DNA relatives...But my guess is we share some distant southern European type ancestry, which could be Jewish in nature, but could also be generic southern European..

evon
10-05-2016, 12:28 PM
Our strange Gedmatch cousin..

My grandmother recently got a strange Gedmatch match at 16cM, the reason it is strange is because the guy she matches has very few high cM matches for his known ancestry (French, Irish and Ukrainian), my grandmother is actually his second highest match. While he is my grandmothers 100th match or something like that..

My grandmothers matching segment:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Screenshot%20from%202016-10-05%2014-03-20.png

My grandmothers top gedmatch matches versus this strange guy (bear in mind that the closest 6 matches for my grandmother are family matches, so disregard those):
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/comparative.png

I have asked him to clarify further about his known ancestry, but I suspect he is either wrong about his ancestry, or his ancestry test got screwed up somehow..As with Irish ancestry he should get a lot more high level matches than my grandmother.

Sleep deprived here today, so please let me know if I dont make any sense... :P Already made one mistake...

Edit:
I double checked one of the matches, I now see he has at least two more Romani related matches, so the shared segment with my grandmother is Romani related after all. However, it still does not answer why he gets so few matches...as he should get tons of matches given how well represented Romani are in the database (due to endogamy and a tiny genepool)...

C J Wyatt III
10-05-2016, 02:05 PM
Our strange Gedmatch cousin..


Just curious, what type kit (e.g. new AncestryDNA, 23andMe V4 chipset, etc.) does he and your grandmother have?

Jack

MacUalraig
10-05-2016, 02:06 PM
Our strange Gedmatch cousin..

My grandmother recently got a strange Gedmatch match at 16cM, the reason it is strange is because the guy she matches has very few high cM matches for his known ancestry (French, Irish and Ukrainian), my grandmother is actually his second highest match. While he is my grandmothers 100th match or something like that..

My grandmothers matching segment:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Screenshot%20from%202016-10-05%2014-03-20.png

My grandmothers top gedmatch matches versus this strange guy (bear in mind that the closest 6 matches for my grandmother are family matches, so disregard those):
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/comparative.png

I have asked him to clarify further about his known ancestry, but I suspect he is either wrong about his ancestry, or his ancestry test got screwed up somehow..As with Irish ancestry he should get a lot more high level matches than my grandmother.

Sleep deprived here today, so please let me know if I dont make any sense... :P Already made one mistake...

Edit:
I double checked one of the matches, I now see he has at least two more Romani related matches, so the shared segment with my grandmother is Romani related after all. However, it still does not answer why he gets so few matches...as he should get tons of matches given how well represented Romani are in the database (due to endogamy and a tiny genepool)...

But how many Ukrainian and French are on the system? I searched the trees for the top Ukrainian surnames and get very few hits for example (unless they spell them differently) eg Kovalenko 8 trees, Bondarenko 7 trees etc

AJL
10-05-2016, 02:28 PM
However, it still does not answer why he gets so few matches...as he should get tons of matches given how well represented Romani are in the database (due to endogamy and a tiny genepool)...

Have you run his (the match's) kit through admix calculators to see where he places and how the segment is painted?

Also, this older paper (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02919.html) discusses a possible reason non-relatives might appear to match with a long segment specifically on chromosome 5.

evon
10-05-2016, 03:23 PM
Have you run his (the match's) kit through admix calculators to see where he places and how the segment is painted?

Also, this older paper (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02919.html) discusses a possible reason non-relatives might appear to match with a long segment specifically on chromosome 5.


My brain isnt 100% today, but if I understood correctly the article says that some parts of chr 5 have slow DNA recombination rates, akin to cold spots? That could explain why my grandmother has inherited a large south Asian Romani related segment on that chromosome (It is the largest south Asian segment of hers).

I ran him through a few admixture calculators, he usually comes out as Romanian or Bulgarian:

Dodecad K12b:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Screenshot%20from%202016-10-05%2014-22-25.png

Eurogenes K15:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Screenshot%20from%202016-10-05%2014-21-02.png

There is a south Asian signal on the location of the segment when I look at chromosome painting for Eurogenes K15, and that basically confirmed what I already suspected..

I did a basic triangulation of the segment with some of his top matches, they all have some Romani ancestry.
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Screenshot%20from%202016-10-05%2017-12-00.png

So the segment he shares with my grandmother is Romani related.

But I still find it odd that he has so few high cM matches in total with his known ancestry and at least one Romani related DNA segment...

evon
10-05-2016, 03:28 PM
Just curious, what type kit (e.g. new AncestryDNA, 23andMe V4 chipset, etc.) does he and your grandmother have?

Jack


He tested with Ancestry and my grandmother is a V3 23andme kit..

evon
10-05-2016, 03:31 PM
But how many Ukrainian and French are on the system? I searched the trees for the top Ukrainian surnames and get very few hits for example (unless they spell them differently) eg Kovalenko 8 trees, Bondarenko 7 trees etc

I have no idea about Ukrainians, but he should still get Russians etc, due to the closeness between these ethnic groups..Dont know about French? My current theory is that his Irish ancestry is very distant and that the French and Ukrainian is dominant DNA wise, but still, the results are strange...

AJL
10-05-2016, 03:36 PM
My brain isnt 100% today, but if I understood correctly the article says that some parts of chr 5 have slow DNA recombination rates, akin to cold spots? That could explain why my grandmother has inherited a large south Asian Romani related segment on that chromosome (It is the largest south Asian segment of hers).

Yes exactly. In some of those areas mutations are linked to some fairly harmful diseases, so there could be good reason for much of these regions to consist of cold spots.

C J Wyatt III
10-05-2016, 03:36 PM
He tested with Ancestry and my grandmother is a V3 23andme kit..

Thanks.

Do you know if the AncestryDNA kit is recent (say since May). You can use the GM DNA File Diagnostic Utility to see when it was uploaded. If it is since May, you would have to look at the number of SNP's to tell if it was an old kit or a new one.

Jack

evon
10-05-2016, 04:02 PM
Thanks.

Do you know if the AncestryDNA kit is recent (say since May). You can use the GM DNA File Diagnostic Utility to see when it was uploaded. If it is since May, you would have to look at the number of SNP's to tell if it was an old kit or a new one.

Jack

Yes, he uploaded it just a few days ago..I got he impression he tested very recently too...seems very new to the whole DNA thing..

evon
10-05-2016, 04:06 PM
Yes exactly. In some of those areas mutations are linked to some fairly harmful diseases, so there could be good reason for much of these regions to consist of cold spots.

While people on my mothers side usually have very good physical health, there is a clear tendency for serious mental health problems..Dont know if this prevalence is related to this particular segment or not though..

C J Wyatt III
10-05-2016, 04:07 PM
Yes, he uploaded it just a few days ago..I got he impression he tested very recently too...seems very new to the whole DNA thing..

I wonder if there is a compatibility issue? I don't know how much it would affect the 'one-to-many' with default parameters. My impression with the reduced SNP's AncestryDNA kit is that it will match on larger segments, but it is terrible when you reduce the segment size. I've become very aware of what type of kit that I am matching with on GEDmatch.

Jack

evon
10-05-2016, 04:17 PM
I wonder if there is a compatibility issue? I don't know how much it would affect the 'one-to-many' with default parameters. My impression with the reduced SNP's AncestryDNA kit is that it will match on larger segments, but it is terrible when you reduce the segment size. I've become very aware of what type of kit that I am matching with on GEDmatch.

Jack

I looked at some other recently added Ancestry kits on my grandmothers matching list, and none of them have this issue...So I really dont know..

AJL
10-05-2016, 06:21 PM
While people on my mothers side usually have very good physical health, there is a clear tendency for serious mental health problems..Dont know if this prevalence is related to this particular segment or not though..

Hard to say, I don't remember reading about any link between mental illness and Chr 5 but there is often a tradeoff between resistance to one thing and vulnerability to another (e.g. West Nile virus vs. HIV with the CCR5 Delta-32 mutation, or heterozygotes for cystic fibrosis having some immunity to cholera or dysentery).

evon
10-06-2016, 09:58 AM
Well I got a reply from the strange match again, the kit is of an adopted son from Romania (no blood relation with the father who is of French, Ukrainian and Irish ancestry), so it seems Eurogenes and Dodecad were on target..It also explains the Romani connection and the low number of matches with high cM..So it is solved!

evon
11-01-2016, 05:10 PM
Found another potential German Jewish ancestor, a Mogens Katz who was born somewhere unknown around 1650. Wish I could find a good visualizing tool to keep track ff all the families..like a interactive map..

dp
11-01-2016, 09:07 PM
An out of the box idea-- when I was only into mtDNA, I used NETWORK, a FLUXUS product.
http://www.fluxus-engineering.com/sharenet.htm
It is very versatile.
I liked the star algorithim, which is good with a founding event, with rapid population expansion.
My copy expired :-(
-dp

dp
11-01-2016, 09:07 PM
An out of the box idea-- when I was only into mtDNA, I used NETWORK, a FLUXUS product.
http://www.fluxus-engineering.com/sharenet.htm
It is very versatile.
I liked the star algorithim, which is good with a founding event, with rapid population expansion.
My copy expired :-(
-dp

*Sorry for double post*

evon
11-01-2016, 10:43 PM
An out of the box idea-- when I was only into mtDNA, I used NETWORK, a FLUXUS product.
http://www.fluxus-engineering.com/sharenet.htm
It is very versatile.
I liked the star algorithim, which is good with a founding event, with rapid population expansion.
My copy expired :-(
-dp

Not a bad idea, I will try something like that, maybe if I can find a online tool with a similar set up..Thanks for the idea..

evon
11-05-2016, 10:35 AM
My paternal aunt got a curious match via Gedmatch, which I cannot explain at the moment, have sent her an e-mail to see what she says.
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Screenshot%20from%202016-11-05%2011-33-59.png


The match has a notable Indian name and her matches list at default only give her 76 matches in total..Mostly people with western and eastern European names (she also matches a Armenian reference sample), her top matches seems to be Latin american and Polish..

Ran her through Gedrosia K12:

1 S_INDIAN 52.97
2 BALOCHI 20.64
3 SINTASHTA_STEPPE_HERDERS 8.43
4 CAUCASUS 7.64
5 INDO_TIBETAN 3.4
6 EARLY_EUROPEAN_FARMERS 2.33
7 W_SIBERIAN 2.2
8 SE_ASIAN 1.64
9 E_AFRICAN 0.53
10 E_SIBERIAN 0.21


1 GujaratiB 5.65
2 UP_Brahmin 7.68
3 GujaratiC 8.95
4 Nepali 12.13
5 GujaratiA 12.87
6 Meghawal 14.46
7 Tharu 15.68
8 UP_Muslim 15.96
9 GujaratiD 16.06
10 UP_Kol 16.58


1 72.6% GujaratiA + 27.4% Nihali @ 3.18
2 65.6% Nepali + 34.4% UP_Caste @ 3.25
3 52.6% Punjabi_Sikh + 47.4% AP_Chenchu @ 3.35
4 74.3% Nepali + 25.7% Hakkipikki @ 3.42
5 62.8% GujaratiA + 37.2% Gond @ 3.45
6 64.3% Nepali + 35.7% Gond @ 3.48
7 55.4% Gond + 44.6% Punjabi_Sikh @ 3.48
8 70% GujaratiA + 30% AP_Chenchu @ 3.52
9 58.3% Nepali + 41.7% UP_Kol @ 3.54
10 71.3% Nepali + 28.7% UP_Chamar @ 3.68
11 61.7% UP_Kol + 38.3% Punjabi_Sikh @ 3.83
12 69.5% Nepali + 30.5% Piramalai @ 3.88
13 85.6% GujaratiC + 14.4% Turkmen_Afghan @ 3.89
14 55.9% Punjabi_Sikh + 44.1% Nihali @ 3.93
15 85.7% GujaratiC + 14.3% Uzbek @ 3.96
16 56.8% GujaratiA + 43.2% UP_Kol @ 3.98
17 71.6% Nepali + 28.4% AP_Chenchu @ 4
18 64.4% GujaratiA + 35.6% UP_Caste @ 4.04
19 50.2% Gond + 49.8% Sindhi @ 4.04
20 74.2% Nepali + 25.8% Nihali @ 4.08


My guess is that this Indian match has some European ancestry, or maybe this is a manifestation of the weird "Jewish" connection I have noted on a few occasions..

evon
11-30-2016, 01:06 PM
I have finally confirmed that my mothers father has some Norwegian Travelers ancestry, which seems to have a very weak connection to Nordic Romani groups, hence they were likely Travelers and not Romani (Unlike my grandmothers ancestors who were Romani). Upon this revelation I have had a fresh look at my grand uncles matches via Gedmatch, and I stumbled across a match I had not noticed before, got in contact with him and it turns out he is Kurdish from Turkey... I suspect they share some distant Mediterranean type ancestry, could be anything from Jewish to Italian, as I have not explored his family tree very well yet. But I do know there were a few Italian immigrants who settled in his village, and the wider region saw a lot of German settlement (Hence the suspected Jewish connection), so the possibilities are many.. An alternate explanation could be that they share some eastern European type ancestry, which could explain his Jewish DNA matches and the matches the Kurdish guy has in eastern Europe (He matches a Tatar woman that my sister matches also, as I mentioned earlier in this thread).. Either way, will do some more digging...

evon
12-23-2016, 02:51 PM
Came across an Armenian match at 8-9cM/750SNP via Gedmatch for my grandmother, if it is Romani related it is likely around 1000 years old... So looking forward to being transferred to the new 23andme platform, as then I can finally look at isolated segments in more detail..

evon
01-02-2017, 10:56 AM
Seems to be raining Anatolian matches lately, first we get a Kurdish match, then an Armenian and today I see a new Turkish match :ranger:

chenmatthew0428
02-05-2017, 12:25 PM
Hi, Evon! I am new to the forum. I am Chinese. You said you have some Chinese and Tatar relatives on 23andme. Can you post their results on this thread?

evon
02-05-2017, 01:46 PM
Hi, Evon! I am new to the forum. I am Chinese. You said you have some Chinese and Tatar relatives on 23andme. Can you post their results on this thread?

We have some Tatar matches on 23andme, but not any Chinese (at least not that I remember from the top of my head, we are stuck on the old 23andme platform still, so I cannot look into it too much from my end). The link to China is very weak and while I have not really worked too much with it, I have found some weak matches from China via Gedmatch.

You want me to post their admixture results? or the matching segments?

I have a feeling that this eastern connection is somehow related to a few Norwegians that we match, who have mtDNA G2a, a mtDNA group that is found in much of Eurasia, including Tatars in Russia and in China etc..

chenmatthew0428
02-05-2017, 01:49 PM
I am interested in 23andme. I want you to post some Tatar 23andme results. Also Armenians. I also wanted to know the results of Central Asian Tatar. Thanks a lot.

evon
02-05-2017, 03:47 PM
I am interested in 23andme. I want you to post some Tatar 23andme results. Also Armenians. I also wanted to know the results of Central Asian Tatar. Thanks a lot.

I can post a few Tatar admixture results that I posted before,I dont have much information about them, only that I labeled them via photobucket as Tatar, Chuvash a few years ago.

Chuvash:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Chuvash.png

Volga Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Volga_T.png

Balkan Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Balkan_T.png

Central Asian Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Central_T.png

Mishar1:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Mish_T2.png

Mishar2:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Mish_T.png

Mishar/Jewish:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Mish_Jew_T.png

Ukranie Tatar?
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Ukraine_T.png


From memory I think we match the Volga, Ukrainian and the Mishar Tatars...But it has been many years since I looked at this.. What is interesting is that in addition to the Autosomal matches, we also share X matches with Tatars and I think the Chinese matches are via the X Chromosome..

chenmatthew0428
02-05-2017, 03:52 PM
Sorry! May I ask you? Do you have some Chinese 23andme results? I don't have an account so I cannot find my them. Can you post their results?

evon
02-05-2017, 03:58 PM
Sorry! May I ask you? Do you have some Chinese 23andme results? I don't have an account so I cannot find my them. Can you post their results?

I dont have time to add them, as I would first have to identify them within 23andme and then add them.. You can open a thread on it to see if some Chinese people can add their results there...

chenmatthew0428
02-05-2017, 04:00 PM
How about some Asian results with unknown ethnicity?

evon
02-05-2017, 04:08 PM
How about some Asian results with unknown ethnicity?

Better you create a thread for it, I think I posted nearly all of the ones I do have already.. Like I said, I am stuck on the old 23andme platform (all the Tatar results are from the old platform, so when they get transitioned they will change), so I only have access to a limited version of 23andme at the moment..you can ask someone who has transitioned to the new platform to give you some results..

chenmatthew0428
02-05-2017, 04:15 PM
Thanks for the reply! Just one more question. Are you an university student? Do you study genetics?

evon
02-05-2017, 04:31 PM
Thanks for the reply! Just one more question. Are you an university student? Do you study genetics?

Why do you ask? I am actually a Historian, but I work at a library that specializes in old books and other old manuscripts etc...

chenmatthew0428
02-05-2017, 05:06 PM
Sorry for asking! I am actually a high school student that is interested in genetics. I thought most of the people in this website are students. Maybe I am wrong.

evon
02-05-2017, 05:28 PM
Sorry for asking! I am actually a high school student that is interested in genetics. I thought most of the people in this website are students. Maybe I am wrong.

I think most of us here are adults. I know we have a few well known Historians, some well known Genetics bloggers, and others of various background...

evon
05-04-2017, 08:28 PM
Got a very close match via FTDNA yesterday, my mothers 4th cousin :) Common Travelers ancestry..

Native FTDNA accounts:

Matches my grand uncle at:
Total: 167
Largest: 43

Matches my mother at:
Total: 81
Largest: 23

Matches my sister at:
Total: 68
Largest: 19

Matches Brother 1 at:
Total: 38
Largest: 9

Matches brother 2 at:
Total: 54
Largest: 23

Transfer accounts:

Me:
Total: 46
Largest: 23

Grandmother (not closely related to my grand uncle):
Total: 33
Largest: 9

evon
06-28-2017, 04:28 PM
Really hoping that I will be transferred to the new platform at the start of August, want to solve the riddle of these two matches and their possible Med/Jewish related signature. But perhaps I am being too optimistic and the new platform is still months away? While the Corsican have allot of Sephardic matches in Turkey and Egypt etc, the Iranian have allot of Jewish matches in Iraq, Iran etc...So these are interesting matches..

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Untitlejjjd.png


Well I finally transitioned and I have had a quick look at these matches.

I looked at the common matches between me and my Iranian match. We have a few American matches in common, which is to be expected due to their general over-representation in the database. Sadly they are of little help..

http://i67.tinypic.com/ei75vm.jpg

Next I looked at "the Corsican match", he now lists two of his parents as coming from Tunisia and one French. I guess Tunisia represent colonial ties and not actual Tunisian (i.e Berber or Arab).. He also match a 10th chromosome match I have in common with the Iranian guy, so these segments have something in common for sure, despite not matching each other...

We have a lot more matches in common.. and I have tried to count them as follows:

- Colonial mixed: 19
- Jewish colonial: 6
- Jewish: 2
- Norwegian-Russian: 1
- Ukraine-Russia: 1
- Belarus: 1
- English: 1
- Unknown (most seem to be colonials from their ancestry %): 11

Matches on the 10th chromosome segment:

- Jewish:5 (3 colonials with minor Ashkenazi %)
- Eastern Europe: 1
- Colonial: 6
- Unknown: 1

Like I expected the segment has a slight Jewish over-representation, which makes sense given the minor Ashkenazi % of "the Corsican guy". It is a somewhat similar "Jewish-pull" as I have observed with the Iranian guy, whose largest matches were non-Ashkenazi Jews from Iraq, Yemen and Iran etc..

evon
07-04-2017, 06:28 PM
Well I finally transitioned and I have had a quick look at these matches.

I looked at the common matches between me and my Iranian match. We have a few American matches in common, which is to be expected due to their general over-representation in the database. Sadly they are of little help..

http://i67.tinypic.com/ei75vm.jpg

Next I looked at "the Corsican match", he now lists two of his parents as coming from Tunisia and one French. I guess Tunisia represent colonial ties and not actual Tunisian (i.e Berber or Arab).. He also match a 10th chromosome match I have in common with the Iranian guy, so these segments have something in common for sure, despite not matching each other...

We have a lot more matches in common.. and I have tried to count them as follows:

- Colonial mixed: 19
- Jewish colonial: 6
- Jewish: 2
- Norwegian-Russian: 1
- Ukraine-Russia: 1
- Belarus: 1
- English: 1
- Unknown (most seem to be colonials from their ancestry %): 11

Matches on the 10th chromosome segment:

- Jewish:5 (3 colonials with minor Ashkenazi %)
- Eastern Europe: 1
- Colonial: 6
- Unknown: 1

Like I expected the segment has a slight Jewish over-representation, which makes sense given the minor Ashkenazi % of "the Corsican guy". It is a somewhat similar "Jewish-pull" as I have observed with the Iranian guy, whose largest matches were non-Ashkenazi Jews from Iraq, Yemen and Iran etc..

Made a triangulation map, featuring only non-colonial matches, on the 10th chromosome:
http://i66.tinypic.com/21khsvb.jpg

Looks like it can be a useful visualization, so I will do the same for other non-European matches in an effort to discover our shared connection..