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ZephyrousMandaru
01-27-2014, 05:51 PM
I can't find the chart at 1:11, do you know where it is?

Caesarea
01-27-2014, 06:14 PM
I can't find the chart at 1:11, do you know where it is?

I have to apologize I left out a couple of numbers..the chart is displayed at 1 hour, 11 minuntes and 13 seconds into video.
Click on the following link http://youtu.be/JYzvkzfyRg8?t=1h11m13s

ZephyrousMandaru
01-27-2014, 08:29 PM
I should also note that most of those Assyrian samples are Nestorian Assyrians, Chaldeans and Syriacs are not well represented here. Both subgroups, at least according to one study I could think of and the few Chaldeans that were tested on 23andMe, display some differences in terms of Y-DNA and possibly mtDNA. Syriacs in particular seem to have produce a high incidence of E1b1b and J1c3.

Caesarea
01-27-2014, 10:39 PM
It would be interesting to see DNA results of Assyrians in Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia.

Mehrdad
01-27-2014, 11:02 PM
c'est très intéressant, alors ça veut dire que les deux populations (Assyriens et Arménien) ont la même origine?!

Humanist
01-27-2014, 11:17 PM
It would be interesting to see DNA results of Assyrians in Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia.

The few thousand Assyrians of Russia/Ukraine are basically my extended family. So, I would not expect them to be different from members of the "Nestorian" church from elsewhere.

As for Assyrians living in Armenia, please see below:

GENETIC AFFINITY OF ASSYRIANS LIVING IN ARMENIA TO DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS OF THE NEAR EAST AND SOUTH CAUCASUS (http://biology.asj-oa.am/8382/1/2011-4_(46).pdf)

Biolog. Journal of Armenia, 4 (63), 2011

A.S. HARUTYUNYAN
Institute of Molecular Biology, National Academy of Sciences, Armenia

Figure 1, from the study. Modified as follows: Green=Aramaic-speaking, Purple=Arabic-speaking.

Due to our high frequency of R1b, the populations, based on those sampled, most similar to us are the Armenians of Karabakh and Syunik.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/PC_assyrian_ydna1.jpg

Caesarea
01-27-2014, 11:56 PM
c'est très intéressant, alors ça veut dire que les deux populations (Assyriens et Arménien) ont la même origine?!

That would be a good question to ask Peter or Humanist.

Tomasso29
01-28-2014, 12:38 AM
That would be a good question to ask Peter or Humanist.

I don't think they have the same origin, but since the adoption of Christianity intermarriages have happened between the two due to living in the same area.

ZephyrousMandaru
01-28-2014, 12:48 AM
I don't think they have the same origin, but since the adoption of Christianity intermarriages have happened between the two due to living in the same area.

That might explain the northern shift that Assyrians have relative to Iraqi Jews and Iraqi Mandaeans.

Tomasso29
01-28-2014, 12:52 AM
That might explain the northern shift that Assyrians have relative to Iraqi Jews and Iraqi Mandaeans.

That's a good possibility. Do you a plot I can refer to btw?

Caesarea
01-28-2014, 01:06 AM
I don't think they have the same origin, but since the adoption of Christianity intermarriages have happened between the two due to living in the same area.

What a coincidence...I was going to post an Armenian priest born in Iraq had told me many years ago (before autosomal DNA testing) Armenians and Assyrians having been marrying since the beginning of Christianity.

This is a fascinating lecture by Dr. Al-Jeloo of the Assyrian and Armenian communities of Urmia (Iran):

http://youtu.be/jCzGAtVmE80
http://youtu.be/wscr3FNol34
http://youtu.be/IYWUi341TGw

I am surprised there are no Armenians researching the Armenian communities in Urmia.

Tomasso29
01-28-2014, 01:13 AM
What a coincidence...I was going to post an Armenian priest born in Iraq had told me many years ago (before autosomal DNA testing) Armenians and Assyrians having been marrying since the beginning of Christianity.

This is a fascinating lecture by Dr. Al-Jeloo of the Assyrian and Armenian communities of Urmia (Iran):

http://youtu.be/jCzGAtVmE80
http://youtu.be/wscr3FNol34
http://youtu.be/IYWUi341TGw

I am surprised there are no Armenians researching the Armenian communities in Urmia.

Yea you'd be surprised how many Assyrians have Armenians in their family and vice versa.

I'm sure there are many Armenians in Urmia and Iran in general, it's just that the vast majority probably lived in Anatolia which get's more focus.

ZephyrousMandaru
01-28-2014, 01:28 AM
That's a good possibility. Do you a plot I can refer to btw?

There's this one, it's based on the Dodecad K12a calculator.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x554q90/525/middleeastk12a.jpg

Armenians are in Eastern Turkey, Assyrians are in Northern Iraq. Iraqi Mandaeans, Iraqi Jews and Iranian Jews are all in and near Southern Iraq. The Eurogenes SPA, which predicts an ethnic groups ethnogenesis prior to any recent migrations, plots us in Southern Iraq.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/740x568q90/832/eurogenesreplottedmdsme.jpg

Humanist
01-28-2014, 06:44 AM
That would be a good question to ask Peter or Humanist.

It is a rather complicated question. And, depends on how far back in time you wish to consider (please see the Assyrian thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=28877&viewfull=1#post28877)). Dienekes ran numerous IBD (Identity by Descent) analyses in his Dodecad projects, and save for a select Assyrian or two, Assyrian IBD sharing with Armenians was rather unremarkable.

Assyrian #5 is Syriac Orthodox/Chaldean Catholic with known Armenian ancestry. Assyrian #10 is a Syriac Orthodox. Assyrian #13 is Chaldean Catholic.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/IBD_assyrian-1.png


Note the position, and sharing with other communities (majority from "Nestorian" church):

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/heatmap.png


Also, there is Y-STR data:

Y chromosome diversity in Kurds and Assyrians living in Armenia

Yepiskoposyan et al (http://www.yhrd.org/files/3rd_y_user_workshop_talk_abstacts.pdf).


Overall, Assyrians and Kurds appear to be genetically distinct from the general Armenian population, with Fst values suggesting that Assyrians are the most differentiated group from all Armenian regional populations and from Kurds.

alan
01-28-2014, 11:52 AM
That is an interesting thought - Armenians and Assyrians are both Christians and that would lead to more likely intermarriage in historic times

newtoboard
01-28-2014, 12:44 PM
So where was the overlap between Armenians and Assyrians? South-Central Turkey? Given how east Kurds plot I guess they are more recent migrants to Turkey(why are they plotting so East and South though?)? What about Azeris? That map of greater Armenia shows significant modern Azeri and Talysh land in Armenia. I wonder if they are recent migrants? I thought the Zagros and Araxes were supposed to be ethnic borders that bound Iranian speakers (similar to the Indus and Himalayas separating Indo-Aryan speakers from ira. Was there any difference in the language of Adiabene and Osrhoene? I assume both were Assyrian. I wonder what the vassal states of Gordyene and Sophene spoke.

newtoboard
01-28-2014, 12:47 PM
That is an interesting thought - Armenians and Assyrians are both Christians and that would lead to more likely intermarriage in historic times

But Armenians seem to have lineages Assyrians lack such as E-V13, I2, and R1a-Z283. But these might be regionally distributed so intermarriage might not mean these lineages show up in Assyrians. I wonder why I shows up in Iranians, Kurds, Georgians and Armenians but not Assyrians though.

Humanist
01-28-2014, 01:08 PM
Was there any difference in the language of Adiabene and Osrhoene? I assume both were Assyrian. I wonder what the vassal states of Gordyene and Sophene spoke.

Adiabene ~ Sureth (Church: Church of the East ("Nestorian" + Chaldean Catholic))
Osrhoene ~ Turoyo* (Church: Syriac Orthodox)

*

Turoyo, or Surayt, is a variety of Aramaic traditionally spoken in eastern Turkey and north-eastern Syria by the Syriac people. Turoyo is not mutually intelligible with Western Neo-Aramaic having been separated for over a thousand years, while mutual intelligibility with Assyrian Neo-Aramaic and Chaldean Neo-Aramaic is higher.

Humanist
01-28-2014, 01:21 PM
Given how east Kurds plot...(why are they plotting so East and South though?)?

I would not make much of that particular map. Both Kurds and Iranians are shifted too far to the east. I used Armenians, Assyrians, and other populations as the anchors, not the Kurds or Iranians. It is really difficult to include populations with significantly different histories on maps of this sort. For instance, if you anchored the other populations by the Kurds and Iranians, they would all be shifted significantly to the west and north. That said, and as already stated, this was a particularly weak map, so I would not make much of it.

newtoboard
01-28-2014, 01:23 PM
Adiabene ~ Sureth (Church: Church of the East ("Nestorian" + Chaldean Catholic))
Osrhoene ~ Turoyo* (Church: Syriac Orthodox)

*

I've never really heard either language. Could you post a song or something that displays how your language sounds?

Humanist
01-28-2014, 01:47 PM
But Armenians seem to have lineages Assyrians lack such as E-V13, I2, and R1a-Z283. But these might be regionally distributed so intermarriage might not mean these lineages show up in Assyrians. I wonder why I shows up in Iranians, Kurds, Georgians and Armenians but not Assyrians though.

The intermarriages between members of the Church of the East and Armenians is a relatively recent occurrence. The last two centuries, and in particular since the unfortunate events of ~ 100 years go. That is why you find those "blips" in the IBD sharing between a few Assyrians and Armenians, in the chart above. Plus, there is the whole linguistic aspect. Scholars such as Geoffrey Khan of Cambridge are now saying that we "must have spoken [Assyrian] Akkadian." There is absolutely no indication that we ever spoke Armenian as a group.

My opinion, as it has been for a very long time, is that a good deal of the ancestry shared by Assyrians and Armenians may be ancient. The Hurrians are the best candidates for this shared ancestry, in my opinion. Before the "Semites" arrived, and before the "Indo-Europeans" arrived, the Hurrians called these lands home.

Humanist
01-28-2014, 01:47 PM
I've never really heard either language. Could you post a song or something that displays how your language sounds?

Later on, in another thread.

ZephyrousMandaru
01-28-2014, 05:16 PM
I also wanted to mentioned that I noticed some differences between certain Armenian groups as well, Western Armenians seem to be closer to Assyrians than Eastern Armenians are.

Western Armenians [5,] "Armenian_D" "6.643"
Western Armenians [6,] "Armenians_15_Y" "6.8088"
Eastern Armenians [10,] "Armenians" "12.5706"

These differences between Eastern Armenians and Assyrians are even more apparent when a Chaldean or Syriac sample is used in comparison.

Chaldean Man's genetic distance with Armenian groups.



[11,] "Armenian_D" "13.0804"
[12,] "Armenians_15_Y" "13.3289"
[21,] "Armenians" "18.7337" (Very Distant)

This pattern is more or less repeated with this other Chaldean.


[7,] "Armenians_15_Y" "10.2645"
[8,] "Armenian_D" "11.2725"
[15,] "Armenians" "16.1289"

I'm not sure if this other man is Chaldean, but I strongly suspect he might either be a Chaldean or Syriac but the general pattern is again repeated.


[11,] "Armenian_D" "14.279"
[13,] "Armenians_15_Y" "14.4485"
[21,] "Armenians" "20.1122"

I believe this Tomasso's results, he is a slightly closer to the Western Armenians than the other Chaldeans are. But is still relatively distant from the Eastern Armenians.


[7,] "Armenians_15_Y" "9.7806"
[8,] "Armenian_D" "10.0055"
[14,] "Armenians" "15.8304"

Humanist
01-28-2014, 06:14 PM
I also wanted to mentioned that I noticed some differences between certain Armenian groups as well, Western Armenians seem to be closer to Assyrians than Eastern Armenians are.

Western Armenians [5,] "Armenian_D" "6.643"
Western Armenians [6,] "Armenians_15_Y" "6.8088"
Eastern Armenians [10,] "Armenians" "12.5706"

The Armenian population "Armenians" is the Behar et al. sample (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Z3KYL6AmkM/TkTaXeASbgI/AAAAAAAAD6w/s4hiKdp6sB4/s1600/ADMIXTURE%2BArmenians_12.png).

Why is the Dodecad Armenian population labelled as "Western Armenians?"

ZephyrousMandaru
01-28-2014, 06:28 PM
The Armenian population "Armenians" is the Behar et al. sample (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Z3KYL6AmkM/TkTaXeASbgI/AAAAAAAAD6w/s4hiKdp6sB4/s1600/ADMIXTURE%2BArmenians_12.png).

Why is the Dodecad Armenian population labelled as "Western Armenians?"

I thought the Dodecad Armenians were Western Armenians? Weren't those admixed Armenians excluded from the sample though? I thought Dienekes removed the outliers. By "Western Armenians" I am referring tot he general region that Armenians in Anatolia are from, which to the Armenians is called "Western Armenian".

Humanist
01-30-2014, 10:26 PM
Dienekes (2012)

fastIBD analysis of Afroasiatic groups (Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Berbers, Somalis, Amharas, etc.) (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-afroasiatic-groups.html)


45 clusters were inferred with 29 dimensions.

I can't comment on all 45 clusters, so I'll just limit myself to the ones that are significantly represented among Project participants: 1. Ashkenazi, 4.Assyrian/Mandaean, 6. Somali, 7. Moroccan, 8. Algerian/Tunisian, 9. Sephardic, 10. Morocco Jews, 11. Iran/Iraq Jews, 12. Non-Jewish Ethiopians, 13. Saudi, 14. Arab #1, 15. Arab #2, 16. Egyptian

Humanist
01-30-2014, 10:32 PM
I also wanted to mentioned that I noticed some differences between certain Armenian groups as well, Western Armenians seem to be closer to Assyrians than Eastern Armenians are.

I think you may be doing something wrong, Zeph. There should not be that much difference between members of the three Assyrian churches when comparing to Armenians. Just refer to the numerous Assyrian population portraits and compare the samples against one another.

ZephyrousMandaru
01-30-2014, 11:37 PM
I think you may be doing something wrong, Zeph. There should not be that much difference between members of the three Assyrian churches when comparing to Armenians. Just refer to the numerous Assyrian population portraits and compare the samples against one another.

Well, the Behar Armenians, excluding the outliers, seem to be more "Caucasus", and less "Southwest Asian" than the other Armenian sample sets. I don't know how else to explain such a drastic difference, other than Syriacs and Chaldeans may have a greater "Levantine" cline or that the Behar Armenians have a greater "Caucasian" cline. Either that, or Dienekes didn't remove the admixed Armenians, but I'm pretty sure he did otherwise you'd see a larger genetic dissimilarity between not only the Assyrian samples, but the other Armenian sets as well, certainly greater than 15-20 for Chaldeans. I used individual Chaldean samples from GED Match in the Dodecad K12b Oracle and typed in their admixture values individually.

I don't know that comparing each individual Chaldean with each individual Behar Armenian is going to change this.

For reference, these are my genetic distances to all three Armenian sample sets.


[7,] "Armenian_D" "9.3686"
[8,] "Armenians_15_Y" "9.718"
[15,] "Armenians" "15.2269"

I'm closer to the Behar Armenians than most of the Chaldeans are.

Ahaddad
02-18-2014, 04:44 AM
14291430143114321433

In Map of colours point Green, Blue, Red and brown how is the colour that i have the trust of my origin place?

ZephyrousMandaru
02-18-2014, 08:17 PM
14291430143114321433

In Map of colours point Green, Blue, Red and brown how is the colour that i have the trust of my origin place?

What are the sets and fractions? Your green spot is very shifted to the West towards Syria, but perhaps that's to be expected for a Chaldean. East Assyrians of the Nestorian church usually plot in Northern Iraq. McDonald's BGA plots you with Armenians, and in one plot the cross-hairs are even proximal to the Georgian cluster. These are results are somewhat accurate, but lack of reference populations and the fact that the "Armenian" samples is anchored in Yerevan is probably what's causing you to cluster so closely to both Armenians and Georgians.

Humanist
02-18-2014, 09:40 PM
The intermarriages between members of the Church of the East and Armenians is a relatively recent occurrence. The last two centuries, and in particular since the unfortunate events of ~ 100 years go. That is why you find those "blips" in the IBD sharing between a few Assyrians and Armenians, in the chart above. Plus, there is the whole linguistic aspect. Scholars such as Geoffrey Khan of Cambridge are now saying that we "must have spoken [Assyrian] Akkadian." There is absolutely no indication that we ever spoke Armenian as a group.

My opinion, as it has been for a very long time, is that a good deal of the ancestry shared by Assyrians and Armenians may be ancient. The Hurrians are the best candidates for this shared ancestry, in my opinion. Before the "Semites" arrived, and before the "Indo-Europeans" arrived, the Hurrians called these lands home.

Dr. Asahel Grant (1841)



The Armenians are the only people in this vicinity with whom they can have intermixed ; but, as they have images or pictures in their churches to which the Nestorians have a great abhorrence,they are considered by the latter little better than idolaters. Consequently they form no alliances, or, if they occur at all, they are certainly extremely rare ; as much so, at least, as foreign marriages were among the ancient Hebrews. Every case that has come to my knowledge where Armenians have asked for Nestorian females, the high ecclesiastics have peremptorily forbidden the purposed connexion. The following extract from the journal of Mr. Stocking, of this mission, presents a case in point : A petition was brought to the bishop from one of the principal Armenians residing in the village, requesting his permission that a Nestorian girl of that village might be united in marriage to his son. The bishop gave a decided answer in the negative. He said the same request had been made to him in the city, with an offer of a sum of money ; but that he had refused the application, telling the man who brought it that the money and its owner might perish together, that he would never consent to his people becoming Armenians." The Jews also testify that the Nestorians are as careful as themselves not to form alliances with others.

Ahaddad
02-20-2014, 02:51 AM
yes, but my origin by this map is in south syria????

Ahaddad
02-23-2014, 06:43 AM
if put me with populations like lebanese, syrians, assyrians i will be not close to armenian and georgian i think.

ZephyrousMandaru
02-23-2014, 06:54 AM
K = 10 Admixture Run By Everest59

Papuan 1.13%
Native American One 1.20%
SW Asian-Med 38.16%
East Asian 0%
Native American Two 0%
Gedrosia-Caucasus 50.63%
European 5.03%
South Asian 0%
Kalash 2.73%
African 0%

ZephyrousMandaru
02-23-2014, 06:55 AM
if put me with populations like lebanese, syrians, assyrians i will be not close to armenian and georgian i think.

You'll probably cluster closely with Assyrians and Iraqi/Iranian Jews and Mandaeans, if they're included. Followed closely by Armenians, Lebanese Christians, etc.

Humanist
02-23-2014, 08:12 AM
You'll probably cluster closely with Assyrians and Iraqi/Iranian Jews and Mandaeans, if they're included. Followed closely by Armenians, Lebanese Christians, etc.

Perhaps Ahaddad's father (Chaldean Catholic) will. But, Ahaddad is also part N Italian and Lebanese.

ZephyrousMandaru
02-23-2014, 08:41 AM
Perhaps Ahaddad's father (Chaldean Catholic) will. But, Ahaddad is also part N Italian and Lebanese.

Hmm, in that case, he might cluster with Ashkenazim Jews, and maybe Cypriots. His father will probably cluster with Iraqi/Iranian Jews and Assyrians. In fact, considering his dad is Chaldean, his genetic distance relative to Iraqi/Iranian Jews and Mandaeans will be slightly less than a Nestorian Assyrian's.

Humanist
02-24-2014, 04:06 AM
First time Kurdish Jews (i.e. Jews from what is today N Iraq, and speakers of NENA languages related to Sureth) have been sampled, as far as I know (Behar et al. (http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints)). At least with regard to autosomal DNA. The results are as one would expect.


Samples representing the geographic region associated with the Khazar Khaganate are widely spread along the plot. Populations from the northern Volga region (Chuvash and Tatar; see Figure 1) are located far from Jewish, Middle Eastern, and Southern European populations and do not appear in the highest-magnification plot focused on the Jewish samples. Populations from the North Caucasus are largely placed in the upper right part of this plot, falling between Turks, Azeris, and Eastern Europeans (Figure 2a). The four South Caucasus populations are less closely clustered than the North Caucasus populations, with Azeris overlapping Iranians and Turks, and Abkhasians appearing closer to Eastern Europeans, Kurds, and Turks. The Georgians and Armenians fall close to each other, with Georgians placed between Eastern European populations, North Caucasus populations, Southern Europeans, and the cluster of Ashkenazi Jews, Middle Eastern Jews, Sephardi Jews, Cypriots, and Druze; Armenians lie somewhat closer to this latter cluster, particularly to the tight cluster containing Azerbaijani, Georgian, Iranian, and Kurdish Jews. Within the Khazar region, the farther south a population is, the closer it lies to Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations. No particular similarity of Ashkenazi Jews with Volga or North Caucasus populations is evident; further, the South Caucasus populations fall closer to non-Ashkenazi Middle Eastern Jewish populations than to Ashkenazi Jews.

ZephyrousMandaru
02-24-2014, 04:24 AM
First time Kurdish Jews (i.e. Jews from what is today N Iraq, and speakers of NENA languages related to Sureth) have been sampled, as far as I know (Behar et al. (http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints)). At least with regard to autosomal DNA. The results are as one would expect.

I don't think Armenians are a proper Caucasian population. They're more of an Anatolian population, so in that respect, I consider them more of a Northern Middle Eastern ethnic group than a Caucasian one.

Humanist
02-24-2014, 04:31 AM
I don't think Armenians are a proper Caucasian population.

Elhaik was the one who used the Armenians as a proxy for Khazars. Apparently, he is not convinced by the most recent study regarding Askhenazi origins:

http://www.homolog.us/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Capture14.png

ZephyrousMandaru
02-24-2014, 04:47 AM
Elhaik was the one who used the Armenians as a proxy for Khazars. Apparently, he is not convinced by the most recent study regarding Askhenazi origins:

http://www.homolog.us/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Capture14.png

Clearly, he doesn't understand population history very well then. The ethnogenesis of the Armenian people occurred further south of where they are today. Their territories bordered countries in the Middle East such as Northern Syria and Iraq. North Caucasians populations are very genetically distant from Armenians. Hell, even ethnic groups as far south as Syria and Lebanon are closer to Armenians than say, Chechens are. Also, the Khazars were a Turkic-speaking peoples, if Ashkenazim Jews were descended from the Khazars, how come they barely register any East Eurasian admixture?

Why don't they have any East Eurasian uniparental haplogroups? If I had speculate as to what the Ashkenazim Jews looked like genetically, prior to settling in Europe and intermingling with the locals, is that they were like Mesopotamian Jews or a mixture between Canaanite Jews and Mesopotamian Jews.

Humanist
02-24-2014, 05:21 AM
David over at Eurogenes (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/genetic-affinities-of-estonian-poles.html) has already put the samples to use.

I have marked the Assyrians.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/eurogenes_behar.jpg

sparkey
02-25-2014, 04:55 PM
David over at Eurogenes (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/genetic-affinities-of-estonian-poles.html) has already put the samples to use.

I have marked the Assyrians.

What's the explanation for tending to be closer to Lebanese Muslims than Lebanese Christians? Most of the rest looks pretty expected, like being very close to Mandaeans.

alan
02-25-2014, 05:12 PM
What is the angle on that and what are the competing ideas? I am assuming this relates to how much modern Jews relate to the ancient Levantine population and I can see how politics and ideology could raise its ugly head but I am not sure I understand the details of this.


Elhaik was the one who used the Armenians as a proxy for Khazars. Apparently, he is not convinced by the most recent study regarding Askhenazi origins:

http://www.homolog.us/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Capture14.png

ADW_1981
02-26-2014, 12:14 AM
What is the angle on that and what are the competing ideas? I am assuming this relates to how much modern Jews relate to the ancient Levantine population and I can see how politics and ideology could raise its ugly head but I am not sure I understand the details of this.

The paper raised the point which I have raised here and other forums such as 23andMe. Khazars would be more like a hybrid Turkic/Iranic people from north of the Caucasus, not within the Trans-Caucasus region which seems to retain a lot of Babylonian type farmer ancestry.

This is not to say no Khazars contributed to the gene pool of the Ashkenazi, but I imagine it was not substantial when you consider the 4 'major' founder lineages must have been recycling a lot of the same segments generation after generation and none of those founder lineages appear to be related to Central Asia at all. If I had to guess of a Khazar founder, it would likely be elite males from the Turkic/Iranic royalty who may have contributed very little other than a Y signature.

alan
02-26-2014, 01:24 AM
I agree. I couldnt understand how Armenians could be used as stand in Khazars anyway. That seems like madness to me. Like you said, the Khazars were steppe Turkic group with probably a large pre-Turkic (Iranian mainly?) substrate. Phenotypically they are clearly described as European-like with fair skin, light eyes and reddish hair. From what I can gather in the wiki page on Khazars, their main phase in Judaism may have only lasted for 130 years c. 837-960s AD before converting to Islam although Jewish elements may well have lingered on. There is no doubt that SOME remnants did make it into the Jewish population as records of the time do actually note this but it may have been very small. The Wiki page on the khazars is absolutely fascinating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

The conclusions seem to swing wildly between DNA papers on this subject. However, I am somewhat amazed that Armenians, Georgians etc have been used as proxy Khazars, almost to the degree that to my suspicious mind it seems almost mind bogglingly irrational and doomed to fail. I think although it may be hard to get a very close proxy for Khazars, surely the nearest would be central steppe turkic groups with IE steppe substrates or their descendants who moved further south, along the lines of some of the groups noted and listed on this map

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-TurkicLanguages.png



The paper raised the point which I have raised here and other forums such as 23andMe. Khazars would be more like a hybrid Turkic/Iranic people from north of the Caucasus, not within the Trans-Caucasus region which seems to retain a lot of Babylonian type farmer ancestry.

This is not to say no Khazars contributed to the gene pool of the Ashkenazi, but I imagine it was not substantial when you consider the 4 'major' founder lineages must have been recycling a lot of the same segments generation after generation and none of those founder lineages appear to be related to Central Asia at all. If I had to guess of a Khazar founder, it would likely be elite males from the Turkic/Iranic royalty who may have contributed very little other than a Y signature.

alan
02-26-2014, 01:41 AM
What y DNA lines would you think. There seems to have been a huge amount of R1a absorbed into some of these non-IE steppe nomads who arrived from the east. I imagine some R1a, some Q, N etc among Jews could have links back to the lands north of the Caucasus. However, I know nothing at all about how common these would be among Jews today. What sorts of R1a do Jewish people tend to have today?


The paper raised the point which I have raised here and other forums such as 23andMe. Khazars would be more like a hybrid Turkic/Iranic people from north of the Caucasus, not within the Trans-Caucasus region which seems to retain a lot of Babylonian type farmer ancestry.

This is not to say no Khazars contributed to the gene pool of the Ashkenazi, but I imagine it was not substantial when you consider the 4 'major' founder lineages must have been recycling a lot of the same segments generation after generation and none of those founder lineages appear to be related to Central Asia at all. If I had to guess of a Khazar founder, it would likely be elite males from the Turkic/Iranic royalty who may have contributed very little other than a Y signature.

Humanist
02-28-2014, 07:03 AM
What's the explanation for tending to be closer to Lebanese Muslims than Lebanese Christians? Most of the rest looks pretty expected, like being very close to Mandaeans.

Not sure. If I am not mistaken, the Lebanese Muslims (based on Harappa admixture?) were shifted a bit toward the east for whatever reason.

The Syriac Orthodox individuals are always shifted to the west. Such as in the below Eurogenes SPA map of Assyrians. On the below map, the handful of Lebanese Muslims from above may have placed somewhere in the vicinity of extreme eastern Syria/western Iraq. These W Assyrians probably do have greater Levantine affinities as compared to E Assyrians (Chaldean Catholics and "Nestorians").

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/asy_man_spa1b.png


Here is another map, with locations based on globe13 admixture values for Assyrians (East and West) and Iraqi Mandaeans (the era subsequent to sovereign Mesopotamian control):

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/800px-N-Mesopotamia_and_Syria_east_west_assyrian_-2.png

the SUN child
03-07-2014, 02:46 PM
Assyrians have the same roots as Akkadians and all other Semites. Semitic is an Afro-Asiatic language with strong connections with native African languages. Ancient Assyrians came from Arabia or maybe from Southern Levant.

Modern Assyrians are the most mixed people in the Near East. Their roots lie in Akkadians, ancient Assyrians and other ancient Semtiic tribes, but later on they heavily mixed with the Armenians (Urartu), modern-day Arabs, Turkmen and of course Kurds (Medes)!

Humanist
03-07-2014, 05:25 PM
Modern Assyrians are the most mixed people in the Near East. Their roots lie in Akkadians, ancient Assyrians and other ancient Semtiic tribes, but later on they heavily mixed with the Armenians (Urartu), modern-day Arabs, Turkmen and of course Kurds (Medes)!

If you are going to post nonsense, you better be prepared to support your assertions with genetic data.

Humanist
03-07-2014, 06:09 PM
Banoei et al., Human Biology. February 2008, v. 80, no, I, pp. 73-81., "Variation of DAT1 VNTR alleles and genotypes among old ethnic groups in Mesopotamia to the Oxus region"

Abstract

Variation of a VNTR in the DAT1 gene in seven ethnic groups of the Middle East was used to infer the history and affinities of these groups. The populations consisted of Assyrian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Armenian, Turkmen, and Arab peoples of Iran, Iraq, and Kuwait. Three hundred forty subjects from these seven ethnic groups were screened for DAT1. DAT1 VNTR genotyping showed 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 alleles in the samples. Analysis of these data revealed differentiation and relationship among the populations. In this region, which covers an area of 2-2.5 million km2, the influence of geography and especially of linguistic characteristics has had potentially major effects on differentiation. Religion also has played a major role in imposing restrictions on some ethnic groups, who as a consequence have maintained their community. Overall, these ethnic groups showed greater heterogeneity compared to other populations.



The relationship probability was lowest between Assyrians and other communities. Endogamy was found to be high for this population through determination of the heterogeneity coefficient (+0,6867), Our study supports earlier findings indicating the relatively closed nature of the Assyrian community as a whole, which as a result of their religious and cultural traditions, have had little intermixture with other populations.

the SUN child
03-08-2014, 12:45 AM
If you are going to post nonsense, you better be prepared to support your assertions with genetic data.Of all Semitic speaking cousins of Assyrians, Assyrians have the most of Gedrosia component. Arabs in Saudi Arabia almost don't have ay of that Gedrosia component. Armenians don't have much of Gedrosia component either. Gedrosia component in Assyrians is from the Iranic speaking people and not from Arabs, Akkadians, Jews and other Semites or Armenians (Urartu/Hurrians). If Hurrians had a lot Gedrosia, Armenians would have a lot of Gedrosia. But Armenians don't have much of Gedrosia at all. The only Iranic speaking people next to Assyrians are Kurds, so Assyrian Gedrosia is from the Kurds, period!

Also, there're a lot Turkmen around the Nineveh region. Turkmen lived always with Assyrians. Modern Assyrians actually consist of all people that became Christians. So, almost everybody (without looking at his racial background) who converted into the Christianity became Assyrian.

Genetically speaking Iraqi Arabs are very close to Assyrians. Because of the common (Semitic) roots Sunni Arabs and Assyrians were always close to each other. Even during the Saddam Hussein era Sunni Arabs and Assyrians worked close to each other. Many Arabs that converted into Islam became Assyrians. There're almost no Christian Arabs. Why? Because Christian arabs became Assyrians!

the SUN child
03-08-2014, 12:50 AM
And if I was mostly Assyrian, I would never speak English as my native language? And if Assyrians in Iraq were mostly Assyrian, they would never speak Arabic or Kurdish as their native language? Same goes for Iraqi Mandaeans and countless other modern and ancient peoples, and their "native" languages.Exactly, your native language is the mother tongue of your parents and grandparents.
But I don't get it? Why should this be impossible? They have a lot Semitic types of hg. J1 and E. They have a lot of Semitic SouthWest Asian auDNA component, their language is Semitic from the Akkadians. I don't see why Akkadians are not their direct ancestors? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see a pattern and relation/links with other Semitic speaking people.

the SUN child
03-08-2014, 01:04 AM
There're much more direct proves that Assyrans are mostly descendants from Akkadians than Sumerians.

There’s no hard evidence (neither linguistic, nor genetic) at all that show that Assyrians are direct descents of mostly the Sumerians. While on the other side they're a couple of DIRECT links that show Assyrians being descendants of Akkadians. 1. language. 2. Semtic y-DNA lineages that Assyrians share with other Semitic speaking people.

Humanist
03-08-2014, 01:06 AM
so Assyrian Gedrosia is from the Kurds, period!

This is an absurd statement. The ~10% of "Gedrosia" in French Basque is Kurdish as well? The ~17% of "Gedrosia" in Armenians is Kurdish as well? The ~21% of "Gedrosia" in Iraqi Mandaeans is Kurdish as well? That is, if your logic that simply having "Gedrosia" means definitive Kurdish admixture.


Also, there're a lot Turkmen around the Nineveh region. Turkmen lived always with Assyrians. Modern Assyrians actually consist of all people that became Christian. So, almost everybody (without looking at his racial background) who converted into the Christianity became Assyrian.

No person of sane mind would suggest that we have "heavily mixed" with Turkmen.


Genetically speaking Iraqi Arabs are very close to Assyrians.

Really. Then why do Assyrian Y-DNA frequencies differ significantly from Iraqi Arab Y-DNA frequencies? Why do Assyrians cluster with Eastern Mizrahim Jews and Iraqi Mandaeans rather than Iraqi Arabs in almost all analyses? Where are my Iraqi Arab RF cousins?

In the above study from Banoei et al. why does it state that Assyrians "have had little intermixture with other populations." Why does the below IBD heat map suggest that no population contributes significantly to Assyrians, other than other Assyrians?

I am getting tired of responding to posts that simply are not supported by any rational examination of the collective data with regard to my own population.


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/heatmap.png

the SUN child
03-08-2014, 01:51 AM
I'm not saying Assyrians ARE Arabs. I'm just saying that Assyrians influenced by Arabs.

Well. Gedrosia in Assyrians must be from somewhere. Since Saudi Arabs and Armenian (Urartu) don't have much of Gedrosia and since Kurds have much more Gedrosia than Assyrians do we can trace from which DIRECTION Gedrosia component entered the Assyrian gene pool. It came from the East. The only neighbours of Assyrians East-Northeast are Kurds. Gedrosia component entered the Assyrian gene pool either with Kurds or ancestors of the Kurds, most like with y-DNA J2a!

Kurds, Ossetians and other North Caucasians have a lot Gedrosia. Iranic people ruled the Caucasus region for a very long time. Iranic peole left their genetic inprint in the Caucasus. Since Assyrians are heavily influenced by Armenians and Kurds, Assyrians have more of Caucaus and Gedrosia components than other Semites. Because of those componetns Assyrians cluster close to West Asian people than other Semtic speaking people in SouthWest Asia. But their deep roots and lineages are different.

Also, Kurds are maybe for about 10% Semitic, because of the Jewish and Chaldean (Babylonian) input. That's how Assyrian race and Kurdish race are close to each other. Assyrians took alot from Armenians and Kurds and Kurds took some from Chalndeans (Babylonians). BUT, if you look closer at Armenian, Assyrian and Kurdish DNA you will see that Kurds have totally different roots (lineages) that have nothing to do with Armenians nor Assyrians. Kurds are closer to Iranians.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. Many Assyrians have some Armenian ancestors. Many have Lebanese ancestors etc. It’s normal, because the population of the Assyrians is very small and every time when Assyrians mix with other it cause some impact on their DNA, because of their small population. If there were with 50 million like Kurds the impact of mixed marriages wouldn’t change their DNA at all

Humanist
03-08-2014, 01:53 AM
I’m not saying...

OK. You have had your say. I no longer wish to carry on a discussion at this time.

the SUN child
03-08-2014, 02:12 AM
It's your choice! I do also just ignore some people, because I believe that those people do not deserve my attention.

But, I don't understand what I'm telling wrong or insulting? I don't also understand why Assyrians don't like Akkdians? What’s wrong with Akkadians? If my native language was related to Akkadian I would be very proud of it, and call me an Akkadian. It's also a fact that many Assyrians have some Armenian ancestors, especially Assyrians in the DIASPORA are very mixed. All Assyrians I know from Georgia, were either mixed with Armenians, Georgians or Russians.

Their DNA is not really modal for Assyrian population, because those Assyrians are heavily mixed, like most Assyrians. If an Assyrians is mixed with Russian or Iranian he will have a lot Russian or Iranian DNA. And saying that Assyrians share a lot DNA with Russians or Iranians is nothing but cheating. Because MIXED people are not really representative for anthropological genetic studies of ancient ethnicities.


I'm not saying that I'm telling the truth. I'm just saying what I think I know and how I do understand and interpret my 'knowledge' or science.

Humanist
03-08-2014, 03:17 AM
Their DNA is not really modal for Assyrian population, because those Assyrians are heavily mixed, like most Assyrians.

What are you not understanding from the IBD heat map data that I posted above for the Assyrian population?

What are you not understanding from what was posted from the study by Banoei et al. regarding the Assyrian population?

What do you not understand from the following bit from Yepiskoposyan et al (2002)?


734 ethnic Armenian, 196 Kurd and 106 Assyrian men were sampled in Armenia. DNA was extracted from buccal swab and typed for six STR...

Overall, Assyrians and Kurds appear to be genetically distinct from the general Armenian population, with Fst values suggesting that Assyrians are the most differentiated group from all Armenian regional populations and from Kurds.

Just because you want us to be "heavily mixed" with all varieties of people, does not make it so.

the SUN child
03-08-2014, 04:23 AM
First of all, I'm not saying Assyrians race is the same as Armenian race. Assyrians are their own unique race (people) I never denied that!

Ok, so Assyrians in Iran are pretty close community. In a Banoei et al. study they're only talking about the Assyrians in Iran. Those Assyrians in diaspora don’t live together with Kurds nor with Armenians. Those Assyrians are a very closed community, due to Shia Islam in Iran, like Jews in Iran. Assyrians in Iran don't represent all Assyrians. They live in a small minority close groups in diffent countries and every minority is mixed with a different (local) population. Also, I was more talking about Assyrians in historic Assyrian lands: around Nineveh etc.

Btw, most differentiated group doesn't mean most homogeneous group. Most differentiated = most different because of a different origin.

Humanist
03-08-2014, 04:43 AM
Ok, so Assyrians in Iran are pretty close community. In a Banoei et al. study they're only talking about the Assyrians in Iran. Those Assyrians in diaspora don’t live together with Kurds nor with Armenians. Those Assyrians are a very closed community, due to Shia Islam in Iran, like Jews in Iran. Assyrians in Iran don't represent all Assyrians. They live in a small minority close groups in diffent countries and every minority is mixed with a different (local) population. Also, I was more talking about Assyrians in historic Assyrian lands: around Nineveh etc.

Assyrians from Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Eurogenes SPA map.

From a previous post:

The Syriac Orthodox individuals are always shifted to the west. Such as in the below Eurogenes SPA map of Assyrians. These W Assyrians probably do have greater Levantine affinities as compared to E Assyrians (Chaldean Catholics and "Nestorians").

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/asy_man_spa1b.png

Humanist
03-08-2014, 04:46 AM
Those Assyrians in [Iran] diaspora don’t live together with Kurds nor with Armenians.

They certainly did/do live with Armenians and Kurds. The largest Assyrian population in Iran was in and around Urmia. After the events of ~100 years ago, this changed. Some of those who survived, and who stayed in Iran, moved to places such as Tehran, Isfahan, and Rasht.

Humanist
03-08-2014, 05:22 AM
DMXX recently created this thread: Anthrogenica community Interpretome chart (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2281-Anthrogenica-community-Interpretome-chart)

Assyrian with parents from Iraq: ZephyrousMandaru
Assyrian with parents from Iran: Humanist


http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1564&d=1394234351

DMXX
03-08-2014, 12:06 PM
It's your choice! I do also just ignore some people, because I believe that those people do not deserve my attention.


Unless you're an academic (which I doubt given the sparseness of citations in most of your messages), there is no justifiable reason why your debating style in this thread is a combination of individualistic and self-referential.

Humanist has provided a wealth of evidence to supplement his perspective on this topic. Your rebuttals, on the other hand, are devoid of any substantial citations and are instead replaced by irrelevant personal anecdotes ("I would be very proud of it, and call me an Akkadian") or the presentation of unsubstantiated claims as fact ("Gedrosia component entered the Assyrian gene pool either with Kurds or ancestors of the Kurds").

You are entitled to your opinion and this forum supports expression of thought. However, this style of doing it is not conducive to proper discussion. Please provide more substance in your future messages here and elsewhere on the forum (e.g. academic sources, data). Future messages which don't comply with this will be deleted.

One point to contribute to the discussion: If it is the Assyrians who supposedly derive some of their ancestry from Kurds, then why does it appear that Kurds are in-between Iranians and Assyrians according to the Interpretome chart, or indeed, similar results (Iranian + other Near-Eastern) are obtained via the Gedmatch Oracle programs?

the SUN child
03-08-2014, 01:57 PM
One point to contribute to the discussion: If it is the Assyrians who supposedly derive some of their ancestry from Kurds, then why does it appear that Kurds are in-between Iranians and Assyrians according to the Interpretome chart, or indeed, similar results (Iranian + other Near-Eastern) are obtained via the Gedmatch Oracle programs?I don't know what you’re trying to say or what you’re implying, but in general Kurds are more shifted to NorthWest at the direction of the Caucasus Mountains, while Persians are more shifted to southeast at the direction of Pakistan. Persians are closer to Pakistan and Afghanistan, while Kurds are a little bit closer to Caucasians. This has absolutely nothing to do with Assyrians. Because Assyrians are NOT from the Caucasus.

Also, such graphs and charts prove nothing about who influenced who. All I know that Kurds influenced Assyrians much more than vice versa. In Kurdistan most Assyrians adapted to Kurdish way of living. Most Assyrians know Kurdish etc. while much less Kurds know Assyrians. But it’s normal, because Kurdish population is much bigger than Assyrians population. It's obvious that Assyrians didn’t influenced Kurds, but Kurds influenced Assyrians.


The fact is that Kurds and Assyrians don't share alot Y-DNA linageas with each other and the Y-DNA lineages they do share with each other are most common in West Asia and not in SouthWest Asia.

DMXX
03-08-2014, 02:23 PM
I don't know what you’re trying to say or what you’re implying...

What I wrote was in simple English. There is no additional implication other than what I stated, which was challenging your assertion that Assyrians somehow derive a chunk of their genetic profile (the "Gedrosian" component) from Kurds in some manner.

Not only are you arguing with ghosts (insinuating I have an unspecified agenda), but you've conveniently ignored the majority of my quoted message addressing your sub-standard debating style. To make matters worse, your response to me was through said sub-standard debating style!

The summation of our short interaction here indicates either your comprehension skills are also sub-standard, or you're greatly overestimating our tolerance for belligerent behaviour.



I'm leaving the above discourse out of interest for discussing the points raised. As Humanist explained, the Assyrians and Kurds are certainly distinct from one another according to the Interpretome chart. It has just been updated to include our new user escalation's spot. Despite being 1/5th Armenian, he too clusters very closely with Humanist and ZephyrousMandaru. Given our lack of Kurdish samples other than MfA, Palisto very kindly provided several Kurds for our consideration (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2281-Anthrogenica-community-Interpretome-chart&p=33148&viewfull=1#post33148). Much like the Assyrians, they occupy a specific genetic zone, which MfA is also a part of.

Humanist
03-08-2014, 08:11 PM
All I know that Kurds influenced Assyrians much more than vice versa...It's obvious that Assyrians didn’t influenced Kurds, but Kurds influenced Assyrians.

Apparently, you are incapable of properly reading the below IBD heat map:


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/heatmap.png


ADDENDUM:

I would like to apologize to the community for allowing this individual to get under my skin. I try and remain civil in all of my interactions. However, seeing this individual reach conclusions that were in clear contrast to what the totality of the data suggested regarding the Assyrian population (e.g. Assyrians are a hybrid Kurdish/Turkmen/Arab/etc population), got the best of me. And, for that, I apologize.

Humanist
03-08-2014, 10:12 PM
Certain individuals on this board have suggested that Assyrians are significantly mixed with modern Arabs. How does that reconcile with the below data?


Dienekes (2012)

fastIBD analysis of Afroasiatic groups (Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Berbers, Somalis, Amharas, etc.) (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-afroasiatic-groups.html)


45 clusters were inferred with 29 dimensions.

I can't comment on all 45 clusters, so I'll just limit myself to the ones that are significantly represented among Project participants: 1. Ashkenazi, 4.Assyrian/Mandaean, 6. Somali, 7. Moroccan, 8. Algerian/Tunisian, 9. Sephardic, 10. Morocco Jews, 11. Iran/Iraq Jews, 12. Non-Jewish Ethiopians, 13. Saudi, 14. Arab #1, 15. Arab #2, 16. Egyptian

How does one mix significantly with modern Arabs and have:
--0% mtDNA L,
--J1* > J1-P58,
--and nearly non-existent "African" as detected by ADMIXTURE programs?

This is why I state that the conclusions reached by individuals such as the SUN child are in stark contrast to the genetic reality.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/mtdna_african_-1.jpg


What am I missing here?

DMXX
03-08-2014, 10:24 PM
Certain individuals on this board, such as the banned user the SUN child and Silesien have suggested that Assyrians are significantly mixed with modern Arabs. How does that reconcile with the below data?


Without addressing anyone in particular, I suppose many who hold that view aren't relying on data. Rather, they're relying on a highly simplistic narrative in the region, whereby all Semitic-speaking ethnic groups have experienced profound genetic interactions with one another. This is presumably done to enhance the contrast with the non-Afro-Asiatic ethnic groups or nationalities in the region.

Of course, such a simplistic view nullifies the thousands of years of individual histories and completely shrouds the actual genetic picture, which is antithetical to how proper investigation/research is carried out. Simple minds over-simplify.

Alanson
03-09-2014, 09:19 AM
Certain individuals on this board have suggested that Assyrians are significantly mixed with modern Arabs. How does that reconcile with the below data?

It's the other way around, is that Arabs especially in Northern Iraq are significantly admixed with Assyrians. Since they are mostly Arabized natives who took the faith of Islam. Certainly the Assyrians of today are not admixed with Arabs, and if they are it's quite minor. Though I do wonder if there is was gene flow from the Arab Christian tribes like the Lakhmid/Taghlib into the Assyrian peoples, and if there was it might have been swamped out. Another reason why Assyrians could not be intermixed because of the religious identity of the Arabs Muslim or pagan they would not have intermixed with the Christian population, unless they were Christian themselves. The Taghlib never converted to Islam and somehow their identity disappeared afterwards most assume they got assimilated into the Christian population of Mesopotamia, and if this was true it seemed they had very little genetic effect.

I do believe that Assyrians are truly of Mesopotamian origins like all other peoples will have some outside influence, all the genetic studies indicate this.

Humanist
03-19-2014, 04:59 PM
First time Kurdish Jews (i.e. Jews from what is today N Iraq, and speakers of NENA languages related to Sureth) have been sampled, as far as I know (Behar et al. (http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints)). At least with regard to autosomal DNA. The results are as one would expect.

From David's latest Eurogenes run (http://bga101.blogspot.it/2014/03/updated-eurogenes-k13-population.html):

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/assyrians_kurdish_jews.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/assyrian_kurdish_jews2.jpg

ZephyrousMandaru
03-23-2014, 04:34 PM
There's something I've wanted to address for a while now. That is, considering that some of the Assyrian project members have Armenian ancestry, especially those individuals with 25% to 50% Armenian ancestry. Will this produce an accumulative effect upon the dataset as a whole? In other words, does this Armenian ancestry in those individuals increase the overall similarity that Assyrian_D has to Armenians? If so, would removing them lower that similarity slightly?

If I'm not mistaken, one of the project members is half-Chaldean, half-Armenian. Would adding someone such as "escalation" for example, who's half-Assyrian, half-Armenian increase the similarity between Assyrians and Armenians?

Humanist
03-23-2014, 05:41 PM
There's something I've wanted to address for a while now. That is, considering that some of the Assyrian project members have Armenian ancestry, especially those individuals with 25% to 50% Armenian ancestry.

Only one project member has 25% Armenian ancestry. That is EliasAlucard.


Assyrian #5 is Syriac Orthodox/Chaldean Catholic with known Armenian ancestry. Assyrian #10 is a Syriac Orthodox. Assyrian #13 is Chaldean Catholic.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/IBD_assyrian-1.png

My grandmother from Iran, and uncle from Iran/Turkey are not recently Armenian admixed. Neither are the other participants. So, I am not sure who you are referring to, unless you mean the Syriac Orthodox individual above, who appears to have some minor Armenian admixture.

I have posted the IBD data many times. The Assyrian project members, even including EliasAlucard in the data, do not appear to have a significant level of IBD segments in common with Armenians.

ZephyrousMandaru
03-23-2014, 06:28 PM
Only one project member has 25% Armenian ancestry. That is EliasAlucard.



My grandmother from Iran, and uncle from Iran/Turkey are not recently Armenian admixed. Neither are the other participants. So, I am not sure who you are referring to, unless you mean the Syriac Orthodox individual above, who appears to have some minor Armenian admixture.

I have posted the IBD data many times. The Assyrian project members, even including EliasAlucard in the data, do not appear to have a significant level of IBD segments in common with Armenians.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinct remember you at some point mentioning about a person who was half-Chaldean, half-Armenian in the Dodecad Ancestry Project thread. If this is the case, wouldn't that skew the Assyrian_D reference a little bit?

Humanist
03-23-2014, 07:08 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinct remember you at some point mentioning about a person who was half-Chaldean, half-Armenian in the Dodecad Ancestry Project thread. If this is the case, wouldn't that skew the Assyrian_D reference a little bit?

I do not recall saying that. I believe I may have stated something along the lines that members of the "Nestorian" church are the least Armenian of all Assyrians, going by average IBD segments shared.

escalation
03-23-2014, 08:10 PM
There's something I've wanted to address for a while now. That is, considering that some of the Assyrian project members have Armenian ancestry, especially those individuals with 25% to 50% Armenian ancestry. Will this produce an accumulative effect upon the dataset as a whole? In other words, does this Armenian ancestry in those individuals increase the overall similarity that Assyrian_D has to Armenians? If so, would removing them lower that similarity slightly?

If I'm not mistaken, one of the project members is half-Chaldean, half-Armenian. Would adding someone such as "escalation" for example, who's half-Assyrian, half-Armenian increase the similarity between Assyrians and Armenians?

I'm The Apple from ABF. I'm 1/5 Armenian.

ZephyrousMandaru
03-23-2014, 09:12 PM
It's just a thought I've been having lately. How much could foreign ancestry, regardless of the amount, impact a dataset?

Humanist
03-23-2014, 09:28 PM
It's just a thought I've been having lately. How much could foreign ancestry, regardless of the amount, impact a dataset?

That depends on a number of things. How many samples are in the dataset, how are population values calculated (e.g. mean, median), how different is the base ancestry from the "foreign ancestry,"...

On a related note:


I think, when you have two groups that have been neighbors for, perhaps 2000-3000 years*, such similarities are to be expected. Though, I know where you are coming from. Because, like you, I was also taken aback by the similarities when I first compared the populations. It is difficult not to. But, once you begin digging into the history and geography, it begins to make sense, I believe.

*

e.g.

Urartu, Assyria and "buffer" states (image from a paper by Dr. Karen Radner)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/rradner_subria_buffer.jpg

Modified by me (rough modern borders drawn)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/MapMesopotamia2_mapopb41-1.jpg

Source unknown

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/map3.gif

Modified by me (Assyrians and Azeris added)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes_mtdna_map1 .jpg


Wikipedia

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/roman_empire_assyria_provincia.jpg

Silesian
03-28-2014, 06:02 PM
I'm 50% Lebanese, 25% Iraqi Christian/Chaldean and 25% North Italian

In all results of admixture i fit in Ashkenazy population, now i have the Mcdonald results and i want help to understand how population i fit better and what place i fit better.165616581657
I' m not aware of any ancient samples from Northern Levantine/West Asia. To come to any conclusion of your family history based on the available historical [ancient samples] using only modern day samples is premature IMO. Unless some of the members can provide references to ancient samples; I would try and do more research. For example how can you tell if your paternal ancestors joined the Nestorian Church ? Were they Kurdish or were they Jewish or other ? Wiki predates Nestorian church Chaldean.



The Church of the East (Syriac: ܥܕܬܐ ܕܡܕܢܚܐ ʿĒ(d)tāʾ d-Maḏn(ə)ḥāʾ), also known as the Nestorian Church,[note 1] is a Christian church, part of the Syriac tradition of Eastern Christianity. T

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_East

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_Christians


In the 19th century, several Christian villages existed in Kurdistan, whose inhabitants spoke only Kurdish, and there were Muslim Kurdish tribes that recalled they were once Christians. Kurds who converted to Christianity usually turned to the Nestorian Church.[9] In 1884, researchers of the Royal Geographical Society reported about a Kurdish tribe in Sivas which retained certain Christian observances and sometimes identified as Christian.[10] It is also possible that many Kurdish Christians have been linguistically and hence ethnically absorbed by Semitic-speaking Christians of Mesopotamia, especially after Islamic expansions in Middle East.[11]

For example it is possible that R1b members from Nestorian Church might be related to R1b in Kurds.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/kurds/default.aspx?section=yresults

We really do not have a good collection of ancient dna samples to come to any conclusions, IMO

Humanist
03-28-2014, 09:59 PM
For example how can you tell if your paternal ancestors joined the Nestorian Church ? Were they Kurdish or were they Jewish or other ? Wiki predates Nestorian church Chaldean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_Christians

Assyrians and Kurds are fairly distinct both autosomally* and with regard to Y-DNA. However, there is some overlap as far as mtDNA is concerned. But, this apparent shared ancestry is also found in Iranians, Armenians, Mizrahim Jews and others in the region.

*

DMXX's Vaedhya blog (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2012/08/introducing-acd-tool.html):


Example #2: West Asians (Harappa)
Using the Harappa Ancestry Project this time, I ran the data of Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds and Iranians (mostly from the Harappa cohort) into the ACD Tool once more and presented the differences as above:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TI1V30XXDw4/UDDQk1Dj11I/AAAAAAAAAOk/_LZxYUxQgso/s640/Example2.png

DMXX
03-28-2014, 11:08 PM
I' m not aware of any ancient samples from Northern Levantine/West Asia. To come to any conclusion of your family history based on the available historical [ancient samples] using only modern day samples is premature IMO.

This message is completely misplaced for three reasons:
1) Ahaddad is asking for some form of appraisal of his results in the context of modern testing
2) Nobody is asking for evidence that Ahaddad descends from any sort of ancient group
3) Ahaddad's stating his ancestry as descending from three modern ethnic/regional groups. He knows his ethnic background. No need to invoke the regular uncertainties of ancient DNA testing.

Humanist
04-28-2014, 06:49 AM
The most recent DNA Tribes update mentions Assyrians: The Search for Genetic Evidence of Jewish “Lost Tribes”‏ (http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2014-05-01.pdf?utm_source=Campaigner&utm_campaign=DNA_Tribes_Digest_May_2014&campaigner=1&utm_medium=HTMLEmail).


[A]nother factor might be underlying ancestral components shared by both Jewish and non-Jewish populations in West Asia that are better preserved in Jewish communities and other local populations (such as Assyrians and Armenians) due to historical endogamy since the Muslim conquests.

Arbogan
04-28-2014, 08:11 AM
Apparently, you are incapable of properly reading the below IBD heat map:


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/heatmap.png

Do you know if any IBD tests runs for dodecad and eurogenes project members, that included both middle-eastern and west-asian groups? For some reason dienekes did an IBD for balkans(why balkans and west-asia? Balkans are totally unrelated to west-asia other than their neolithic affinity and turks affinity with them) and west-Asia and a seperate one for afroasiatic groups.

Silesian
01-27-2015, 05:49 PM
Well, even with respect to geography, it doesn't really make sense. The Southern Caucasus encompasses Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Dagestan, as well as parts of Iran and Turkey. Actually, Georgian Jews probably did not have their ethnogenesis in Georgia, they're quite dissimilar to Georgians and consistently cluster with Non-Caucasian populations (Assyrians included). It's up to you, but that's all I wanted to point out.

Groups within Urmia region have/and or share ANE and; http://www.aina.org/articles/gdaicc.pdf

A few blood group data on Armenians and Assyrians are available from other studies in Iran and neighboring countries. A comparison
with the present re sults confirms that the Armenians and Assyrians as a whole are characterized by a high A gene and cde haplotype
frequency [12].

Humanist
01-27-2015, 09:06 PM
Groups within Urmia region have/and or share ANE and; http://www.aina.org/articles/gdaicc.pdf

What are you trying to say by quoting a blood group study from 1984? The Assyrians from Urmia, including some of my family members are most similar to fellow Assyrians, Iraqi Mandaeans, and East Mizrahim Jews. And then Armenians.

ZephyrousMandaru
01-27-2015, 11:54 PM
Silesian, classical blood markers are not an accurate metric for ascertaining the genetic relationships between human populations. In fact, recent studies have suggested that they may have a more prehistorical origin, which traces back to our ancient hominid ancestors. They also don't correlate very well with human migration patterns with respect to their genetic origins.

Mingle
02-19-2018, 11:10 PM
Assyrians and Kurds are fairly distinct both autosomally* and with regard to Y-DNA. However, there is some overlap as far as mtDNA is concerned. But, this apparent shared ancestry is also found in Iranians, Armenians, Mizrahim Jews and others in the region.

*

DMXX's Vaedhya blog (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2012/08/introducing-acd-tool.html):

Very interesting. What is the ACD tool and how did it completely change the genetic composition of the subjects after it was applied?

Helves
02-20-2018, 10:56 PM
I should also note that most of those Assyrian samples are Nestorian Assyrians, Chaldeans and Syriacs are not well represented here. Both subgroups, at least according to one study I could think of and the few Chaldeans that were tested on 23andMe, display some differences in terms of Y-DNA and possibly mtDNA. Syriacs in particular seem to have produce a high incidence of E1b1b and J1c3.

Interesting. I've always thought that we(Chaldeans) and Nestorians are basically the same. My great-great-great grandmother used to tell to my grandfather that we Chaldeans were converts("klibaye" in Sureth) and that we also were originally Nestorian. Are the differences visible genetically?