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tipirneni
02-18-2020, 08:20 PM
Male effective population sizes for J2a-M410 show rapid expansion when moving from NW region to Gangetic plains while it drops rapidly in Central India and again expands in South India, probably due to unfavorable period during spread.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709632/bin/srep19157-f3.jpg
Multidimensional scaling (MDS) plot based on Rst values of Y-STRs for haplogroups.
(a) J2a-M410 and (b) J2b-M102. Dots represent different populations worldwide. CC = Caucasian, IN = Indian, AF = Afghanistani, ABZ = Abkhaz, BDG = Baduga, BNJ = Banjara, BHL = Bahelia, CHN = Chechen (Chechnya), DG = Chechen (Dagestan), INT = Chechen Ingushetia, CHN = Chenchu, CRC = Circassians, HVK = Havik, HZR = Hazara, ING = Ingush, KBJ = Kamboj, KOT = Kota, LHN = Lohana, MK = Mahadev Koli, MONT = Montenegrin, OSD = Ossets (Digor), OSI = Ossets (Iron), NOM = Indian Nomads (Pichakuntla & Mondi), SERB = Serbian, TJK = Tajik, THK = Thakar, THP = Thapa, TOD = Toda, VNY = Vanniyar, YAD = Yadav, IRAN = Iranian, LEBN = Lebanese, MONT = Montenegrin, SERB = Serbian, SYRIA = Syrian, WRUS = WesternRussia, CCSS = Caucasus, ASR = Asur, BHL = Bahelia, BUX = Buxas, CND = CapeNadar, CHN = Chenchu, EZH = Ezhava, KOR = Korku, MVR = Maravar, MNA = Meena, NKR = Narikuravar, PLY = Paliyan, PRV = Paravar, PRY = Parayar, NOM = Indian Nomads (Pichakuntla & Mondi), SHK = Shikari, TDV = Tadvi, TJN = Tamil Jains, THP = Thapa, VNY = Vanniyar, VAD = Yadhava, ASKNZ = Ashkenazi.

MDS plot shows very diverse distribution probably shaped by multiple events or population movements.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709632/bin/srep19157-f4.jpg

Network diagram shows very spread out J2a distribution.

Lower Fst values between NW India and geographical regions West from India show them to be less differentiated. Higher Fst values between NW and South India suggest their high level of differentiation. TMRCAs of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 of NW and South India advocate an early arrival of these lineages to Indian subcontinent. Genetic relatedness of NW Indians with population to West from NW border and remarkable presence of J2-M172 HGs in remote Indian tribes along with other social strata, may represent the early Holocene expansion in NW India (including the Indus Valley) diffusing towards Central Asia and spreading agriculture eastwards to the Gangetic plains during pre-Harappan times (6-7 KYA). However, presence of J2-M172 subclades in India can not only be substantiated by Neolithic spread. Firstly, lack of any sublineage of J2a-M410 (M67, M47 and M92) representing majority of the pool outside India, implies towards an older and unique history of this HG into the subcontinent.

tipirneni
02-18-2020, 08:30 PM
j2a1 Ezhava Dravidian South India
J2a1>PF5169 59.9% 20.9% J2a1h2>Z7700 NEPL1 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa
J2a1>PF5169 86% NEPL2 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa
J2a1>M319 NEPL3 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa
J2a1>M319 NEPL3 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa J2a-M410
J2a1>Z6065 ICC1 Indo-European Caste Central India Madhya Pradesh Baghel
J2a1>Z6065 51.2% J2a1h2>Z7700 44.3% INC4 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Uttar Pradesh
J2a1>Z6065 INwNm1 Indo-European Nomadic Northwest India Rajasthan Banjara
J2a1h2>PF5401 47.7% J2a1h2>Z7700 37.6% J2a1>Z6065 13.6% ITr2 Indo-European Tribe Northwest India Gujarat Bhil
J2a1h2>Z7700 88.5% INWC1 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Haryana Kamboj
J2a1>PF5169 83.8% INWC3 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Haryana Kamboj J2a-M410
J2a1h2>Z7700 IPTG1 Indo-European Nomadic Northwest India Gujarat Kathodi
J2a1h2>Z7700 IPTG3 Indo-European PTG Northwest India Gujarat Kolcha
J2a1>PF5169 INWC5 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Gujarat Lohana
J2a1h2>Z7700 INWC7 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Gujarat Lohana
J2a1>Z6065 100% INWC9 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Gujarat Lohana

J2a1>Z6065 DSTr2 Dravidian Tribe South India Tamil Nadu Baduga
J2a1h2>PF5401 DSTr4 Dravidian Tribe South India Tamil Nadu Baduga
J2a1h2>Z7700 DPTG1 Dravidian PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Chenchu
J2a1>M319 DPTG3 Dravidian PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Chenchu
J2a1>PF5169 DPTG4 Dravidian PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Chenchu
J2a1h2>Z387 DSTr5 Dravidian Tribe Southwest India Karnataka Halakki
J2a1h2>Z7700 DPTG6 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Kota
J2a1>PF5169 IPTG4 Indo-European PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Koti
J2a1>PF5169 100% DSC4 Dravidian Caste South India Tamil Nadu Lingayat

J2a2-PF5008 100% INC5 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Uttar Pradesh
J2a2-PF5008 DPTG7 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Malaikuruwar
J2a1>Z6065 DPTG8 Dravidian PTG South India Kerala Malayan
J2a1>PF5169 DSNm1 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Pichakuntla/Mondi
J2a1>Z6065 DSNm2 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Pichakuntla/Mondi
J2a1h2>Z7700 DSNm3 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Pichakuntla/Mondi
J2a1h2>Z7700 ITr3 Indo-European Tribe South India Andhra Pradesh Sugali J2a-M410

J2a1h2>Z7700 54.8% J2a1>Z6065 38% DPTG10 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Toda J2a-M410 J2a M68
J2a1>Z6065 30.5% J2a1h2>Z7700 29% J2a1b>Z467>L210 25.2% DPTG12 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Toda
J2a1>Z6065 100% DSC5 Dravidian Caste South India Pondicherry Yadav

J2a1h2>Z7700 100% DSC7 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Yadav
J2a1h2>Z7700 100% DSNm4 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Yanadi
J2a1>Z6065 ITr4 Indo-European Tribe West India Maharashtra Mahadev Koli
J2a2-PF5008 100% INC5 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Uttar Pradesh

J2a1b>Z467>L210 30.2% J2a1>PF5169 26.2% J2a1h2>Z7700 16.7% J2a1>M319 16.3% ICC2 Indo-European Caste Central India Chhattisgarh Pandit
J2a1b>Z7671 95.2% INC2 Indo-European Caste North India Kashmir Kashmiri Pandit

j2a1c Reddy
j2a1j Jat
j2a1c Jat

J2a1h2>Z7700 63.5% J2a1b>Z467>L210 31% ICC3 Indo-European Caste Central India Chhattisgarh Rajpoot
J2a1h2>Z7700 79.6% J2a1>PF5169 20.3% ICC5 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Durgavanshi J2a-M410
J2a1h2>Z7700 100% ITr1 Indo-European Tribe North India Uttar Pradesh Kabutari
J2a1h2>Z7700 100% KMUS1 Indo-European Muslim North India Kashmir Kashmiri Muslim
J2a1h2>Z387 60.2% J2a1h2>PF5401 33.8% INC1 Indo-European Caste North India Kashmir Kashmiri Pandit
J2a1h2>Z7700 90.3% INC3 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Khatri

J2a2-PF5008 INMC1 Indo-European Nomadic Central India Chhattisgarh Bahelia
J2a2-PF5008 DCTr1 Dravidian Tribe Central India Chhattisgarh Gond

j2a3 Toda kota vellalar nadar vanniyar brahmin
j2a4 GSB Khatri
J2a4h2 Syrian christian


The Color green are all Tribal people. Other are caste people. The distribution looks like it was introduced in multiple waves though some of the major ones are present in Caste and Tribal people in same manner suggests spread before formation of those tribes/castes.

discreetmaverick
03-19-2020, 05:42 PM
Male effective population sizes for J2a-M410 show rapid expansion when moving from NW region to Gangetic plains while it drops rapidly in Central India and again expands in South India, probably due to unfavorable period during spread.


It is more likely not so favorable place for farming. Central India is a forest belt.


Lingayat is not a caste, Badagu are tribe involved in farming, a likely late entrant to Niligiri.

Chenchu likely received admixture from Brahmins or Buddist or Jangams.

Banjara have R1b as well.

Farmers would have likely encountered Bhil en route to south India in Gujarat. Brahui word for Bow is Bil. ( Hunters )

https://www.quora.com/How-much-can-Dravidian-speakers-in-India-Tamil-Telugu-Kannada-etc-understand-the-Brahui-language

Toda are not hunter-gatherers but pastoral.

A small percentage of J2a/J2b can be found among tribes from Neolithic or later time periods.

parasar
03-19-2020, 06:19 PM
...

Lower Fst values between NW India and geographical regions West from India show them to be less differentiated. Higher Fst values between NW and South India suggest their high level of differentiation. TMRCAs of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 of NW and South India advocate an early arrival of these lineages to Indian subcontinent. Genetic relatedness of NW Indians with population to West from NW border and remarkable presence of J2-M172 HGs in remote Indian tribes along with other social strata, may represent the early Holocene expansion in NW India (including the Indus Valley) diffusing towards Central Asia and spreading agriculture eastwards to the Gangetic plains during pre-Harappan times (6-7 KYA). However, presence of J2-M172 subclades in India can not only be substantiated by Neolithic spread. Firstly, lack of any sublineage of J2a-M410 (M67, M47 and M92) representing majority of the pool outside India, implies towards an older and unique history of this HG into the subcontinent.

See also: ERR445347 India and YF08410 India in addition to HG02774 (also in Magoon in chart below).
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF4610/

HG01589 from Pakistan is in the same group as a Russian Tatar YF67458RUS - an over 15500 year old split.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M410/

YF13108 is from Uzbekistan.

So I would not be surprised if J is pre-Holocene in South Asia with the LGM splitting I and J in two separate ice age areas.

http://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/12/1kG.treeG_.J2a.node_.dependent.cladogram_rev3.png

tipirneni
03-19-2020, 08:43 PM
See also: ERR445347 India and YF08410 India in addition to HG02774 (also in Magoon in chart below).
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF4610/

HG01589 from Pakistan is in the same group as a Russian Tatar YF67458RUS - an over 15500 year old split.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M410/

YF13108 is from Uzbekistan.

So I would not be surprised if J is pre-Holocene in South Asia with the LGM splitting I and J in two separate ice age areas.

http://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/12/1kG.treeG_.J2a.node_.dependent.cladogram_rev3.png

Earliest J in the area is from

9100-8600 BCE Iran_HotuIIIb_all Hotu Cave, Alborz Mountains, near Behshahr Iran 35.591 53.501 M HV2 J(xJ2a1b3,J2b2a1a1)

&
9700 BCE J2a1b-Y12379* KK1

KK1 and Iran_HotuIIIb individuals share a paternal ancestor that lived approximately 18.7k years ago (

It is possible there was a small splinter coming initially into Mehrgarh culture that mixed into the proto-H1 population like SIS BA2 & 3. There is also later Saka, I saw 1 Rathore from Pak with IRAN specific J2a, those were part of later migrations. The India specific tribals like Toda, Kota, Baduga, Modia, Chencu etc... seem to all carry similar clades and share with Yadav, Khatri, Durgvanshi, Kamboj indicating very old dispersal probably during 3rd millenium BC.

J Man
03-20-2020, 02:44 PM
j2a1 Ezhava Dravidian South India
J2a1>PF5169 59.9% 20.9% J2a1h2>Z7700 NEPL1 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa
J2a1>PF5169 86% NEPL2 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa
J2a1>M319 NEPL3 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa
J2a1>M319 NEPL3 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa J2a-M410
J2a1>Z6065 ICC1 Indo-European Caste Central India Madhya Pradesh Baghel
J2a1>Z6065 51.2% J2a1h2>Z7700 44.3% INC4 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Uttar Pradesh
J2a1>Z6065 INwNm1 Indo-European Nomadic Northwest India Rajasthan Banjara
J2a1h2>PF5401 47.7% J2a1h2>Z7700 37.6% J2a1>Z6065 13.6% ITr2 Indo-European Tribe Northwest India Gujarat Bhil
J2a1h2>Z7700 88.5% INWC1 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Haryana Kamboj
J2a1>PF5169 83.8% INWC3 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Haryana Kamboj J2a-M410
J2a1h2>Z7700 IPTG1 Indo-European Nomadic Northwest India Gujarat Kathodi
J2a1h2>Z7700 IPTG3 Indo-European PTG Northwest India Gujarat Kolcha
J2a1>PF5169 INWC5 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Gujarat Lohana
J2a1h2>Z7700 INWC7 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Gujarat Lohana
J2a1>Z6065 100% INWC9 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Gujarat Lohana

J2a1>Z6065 DSTr2 Dravidian Tribe South India Tamil Nadu Baduga
J2a1h2>PF5401 DSTr4 Dravidian Tribe South India Tamil Nadu Baduga
J2a1h2>Z7700 DPTG1 Dravidian PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Chenchu
J2a1>M319 DPTG3 Dravidian PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Chenchu
J2a1>PF5169 DPTG4 Dravidian PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Chenchu
J2a1h2>Z387 DSTr5 Dravidian Tribe Southwest India Karnataka Halakki
J2a1h2>Z7700 DPTG6 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Kota
J2a1>PF5169 IPTG4 Indo-European PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Koti
J2a1>PF5169 100% DSC4 Dravidian Caste South India Tamil Nadu Lingayat

J2a2-PF5008 100% INC5 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Uttar Pradesh
J2a2-PF5008 DPTG7 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Malaikuruwar
J2a1>Z6065 DPTG8 Dravidian PTG South India Kerala Malayan
J2a1>PF5169 DSNm1 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Pichakuntla/Mondi
J2a1>Z6065 DSNm2 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Pichakuntla/Mondi
J2a1h2>Z7700 DSNm3 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Pichakuntla/Mondi
J2a1h2>Z7700 ITr3 Indo-European Tribe South India Andhra Pradesh Sugali J2a-M410

J2a1h2>Z7700 54.8% J2a1>Z6065 38% DPTG10 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Toda J2a-M410 J2a M68
J2a1>Z6065 30.5% J2a1h2>Z7700 29% J2a1b>Z467>L210 25.2% DPTG12 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Toda
J2a1>Z6065 100% DSC5 Dravidian Caste South India Pondicherry Yadav

J2a1h2>Z7700 100% DSC7 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Yadav
J2a1h2>Z7700 100% DSNm4 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Yanadi
J2a1>Z6065 ITr4 Indo-European Tribe West India Maharashtra Mahadev Koli
J2a2-PF5008 100% INC5 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Uttar Pradesh

J2a1b>Z467>L210 30.2% J2a1>PF5169 26.2% J2a1h2>Z7700 16.7% J2a1>M319 16.3% ICC2 Indo-European Caste Central India Chhattisgarh Pandit
J2a1b>Z7671 95.2% INC2 Indo-European Caste North India Kashmir Kashmiri Pandit

j2a1c Reddy
j2a1j Jat
j2a1c Jat

J2a1h2>Z7700 63.5% J2a1b>Z467>L210 31% ICC3 Indo-European Caste Central India Chhattisgarh Rajpoot
J2a1h2>Z7700 79.6% J2a1>PF5169 20.3% ICC5 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Durgavanshi J2a-M410
J2a1h2>Z7700 100% ITr1 Indo-European Tribe North India Uttar Pradesh Kabutari
J2a1h2>Z7700 100% KMUS1 Indo-European Muslim North India Kashmir Kashmiri Muslim
J2a1h2>Z387 60.2% J2a1h2>PF5401 33.8% INC1 Indo-European Caste North India Kashmir Kashmiri Pandit
J2a1h2>Z7700 90.3% INC3 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Khatri

J2a2-PF5008 INMC1 Indo-European Nomadic Central India Chhattisgarh Bahelia
J2a2-PF5008 DCTr1 Dravidian Tribe Central India Chhattisgarh Gond

j2a3 Toda kota vellalar nadar vanniyar brahmin
j2a4 GSB Khatri
J2a4h2 Syrian christian


The Color green are all Tribal people. Other are caste people. The distribution looks like it was introduced in multiple waves though some of the major ones are present in Caste and Tribal people in same manner suggests spread before formation of those tribes/castes.

Are these results from an academic study? I am most interested in the J2a-Z6065 results as I am positive for Z6065 myself.

tipirneni
03-20-2020, 03:03 PM
Are these results from an academic study? I am most interested in the J2a-Z6065 results as I am positive for Z6065 myself.

These all are gathered from numerous studies looks like. As you can see Z6065 is also widespread. But if you are not South Asian, I would advise you to refer to specific branch that you are since you will see in Network diagram some branches show up as a South Asian, others different countries. Further isolating the actual branch is necessary.

also

Genotyping Z2396, a newly discovered SNP, has divided the Indian J2a-M410 pool into two groups:
derived and ancestral for Z2396, proving it to be polyphyletic in India. Our study shows a frequent presence of
M68, a rare marker, in various tribes and groups of South India suggests its autochthonous origin. Presence of
M68 was also reported in few samples of Indian origin in a study from Southeast Asia25.

Principe
03-20-2020, 03:05 PM
Guys the Ancient Central Asian and South Asian pretty much showed which J2a branches entered the area,

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z7308/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YSC0000253/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F3133/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF4993/

Well subclades of each entered the area, these 4 J2a branches were the spreaders of farming in Iran, Central Asia and South Asia.

There is probably others

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2/page7

Its all in here

Principe
03-20-2020, 03:22 PM
These all are gathered from numerous studies looks like. As you can see Z6065 is also widespread. But if you are not South Asian, I would advise you to refer to specific branch that you are since you will see in Network diagram some branches show up as a South Asian, others different countries. Further isolating the actual branch is necessary.

also

Genotyping Z2396, a newly discovered SNP, has divided the Indian J2a-M410 pool into two groups:
derived and ancestral for Z2396, proving it to be polyphyletic in India. Our study shows a frequent presence of
M68, a rare marker, in various tribes and groups of South India suggests its autochthonous origin. Presence of
M68 was also reported in few samples of Indian origin in a study from Southeast Asia25.

This is my response for you and Jman, honestly Z6065 seems to be quintessential Fertile Crescent marker, with what seems branches that diverged in both the Caucasus and Mesopotamia, I would imagine majority of Z6065 that found its way to South Asia would be via Mesopotamian traders who went to Central Asia, there is historical documentation to this. As an example to further strengthen this idea we have an ancient https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y37496/ sample appear in Anatolia during the Assyrian colony period it might be a native but judging M47 branch I doubt it.

tipirneni
03-20-2020, 09:10 PM
This is my response for you and Jman, honestly Z6065 seems to be quintessential Fertile Crescent marker, with what seems branches that diverged in both the Caucasus and Mesopotamia, I would imagine majority of Z6065 that found its way to South Asia would be via Mesopotamian traders who went to Central Asia, there is historical documentation to this. As an example to further strengthen this idea we have an ancient https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y37496/ sample appear in Anatolia during the Assyrian colony period it might be a native but judging M47 branch I doubt it.

More detailed network diagram with specific sub clad should show most of the South Asian samples as separate nodes except for few later Saka and Iran/Turan migrations.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19157


Previous study already showed the following on Indian J2a pool ->

Genotyping Z2396, a newly discovered SNP, has divided the Indian J2a-M410 pool into two groups:
derived and ancestral for Z2396, proving it to be polyphyletic in India. Our study shows a frequent presence of
M68, a rare marker, in various tribes and groups of South India suggests its autochthonous origin. Presence of
M68 was also reported in few samples of Indian origin in a study from Southeast Asia25.

It is like at east 4 to 6 millennium happened now most of these are assimilated into other Indian specific clades like H1 people except the later Medieval migrations

Principe
03-20-2020, 09:46 PM
More detailed network diagram with specific sub clad should show most of the South Asian samples as separate nodes except for few later Saka and Iran/Turan migrations.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19157


Previous study already showed the following on Indian J2a pool ->

Genotyping Z2396, a newly discovered SNP, has divided the Indian J2a-M410 pool into two groups:
derived and ancestral for Z2396, proving it to be polyphyletic in India. Our study shows a frequent presence of
M68, a rare marker, in various tribes and groups of South India suggests its autochthonous origin. Presence of
M68 was also reported in few samples of Indian origin in a study from Southeast Asia25.

It is like at east 4 to 6 millennium happened now most of these are assimilated into other Indian specific clades like H1 people except the later Medieval migrations

Thanks for the additional information, M68 is under a different branch of J2a and isn't under Z6065 but rather Z6057, Z6057 also appears to be a Neolithic Iranian farmer lineage, perhaps when more samples are out we will see it.

J Man
03-23-2020, 04:32 AM
These all are gathered from numerous studies looks like. As you can see Z6065 is also widespread. But if you are not South Asian, I would advise you to refer to specific branch that you are since you will see in Network diagram some branches show up as a South Asian, others different countries. Further isolating the actual branch is necessary.

also

Genotyping Z2396, a newly discovered SNP, has divided the Indian J2a-M410 pool into two groups:
derived and ancestral for Z2396, proving it to be polyphyletic in India. Our study shows a frequent presence of
M68, a rare marker, in various tribes and groups of South India suggests its autochthonous origin. Presence of
M68 was also reported in few samples of Indian origin in a study from Southeast Asia25.

Do you know of any J2a tribal samples from FTDNA or 23andme?

tipirneni
03-23-2020, 06:59 PM
Do you know of any J2a tribal samples from FTDNA or 23andme?

Tribals are not there in USA or Europe or Aus. Most of them stay with their groups. The chances of finding them within regular Indian crowd is usually none in Western countries but more in India and Middle East workers

parasar
03-23-2020, 07:23 PM
M68
https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/05/J2a-SK1363_2015-05-25.png
https://j2-m172.info/2015/05/structure-for-the-j2a-sk1363-clade-including-montgomery-etc-clusters/

J Man
03-23-2020, 10:16 PM
I remember reading before that the Brahui have some J2a as well.

J Man
07-26-2020, 04:50 PM
Tribals are not there in USA or Europe or Aus. Most of them stay with their groups. The chances of finding them within regular Indian crowd is usually none in Western countries but more in India and Middle East workers

I recently saw that J2a is present among the Maldhari people of Gujarat. Unfortunately I can't get the page to load though. Do you know of this?

tipirneni
07-26-2020, 10:35 PM
I recently saw that J2a is present among the Maldhari people of Gujarat. Unfortunately I can't get the page to load though. Do you know of this?

I haven't seen the specific clade of J2a of these Shepard community. The J2a is also present among Dhodia, Dubla, Valvi Choudhary, Gamit tribal people. So it has a big imprint among tribals and also caste populations. . Cordaux et al. [35] had proposed the Central Asian homeland for Indian J2 sub-clade mainly because of higher frequency of J2 in Central Asia.


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0090414.g002

Ahmed Ali
07-26-2020, 11:36 PM
Hi there,

Just chiming in with my results as I thought it'd be relevant to share here.

According to y-seq I'm positive for J-MF10466 which is downstream of J-Y182822, which is itself downstream of J2a2/J-PF5008. Any guidance on the origin/spread of this clade would be much appreciated.

For context: my paternal side is Punjabi from Lahore, Pakistan. They've lived in Lahore since around 1840. Before that, they claim to have been in Khorasan or Central Asia.

parasar
07-26-2020, 11:48 PM
Hi there,

Just chiming in with my results as I thought it'd be relevant to share here.

According to y-seq I'm positive for J-MF10466 which is downstream of J-Y182822, which is itself downstream of J2a2/J-PF5008. Any guidance on the origin/spread of this clade would be much appreciated.

For context: my paternal side is Punjabi from Lahore, Pakistan. They've lived in Lahore since around 1840. Before that, they claim to have been in Khorasan or Central Asia.

My guess would be a very ancient subcontinental line. Perhaps going back to the early emergence of J2a, as MF10466 is from 23Mofang data, and Y182822 is seen in a Russian tatar.

Ahmed Ali
07-26-2020, 11:53 PM
My guess would be a very ancient subcontinental line. Perhaps going back to the early emergence of J2a, as MF10466 is from 23Mofang data, and Y182822 is seen in a Russian tatar.

Interesting. I have also seen MF10466 in an Iranian on FtDNA's Haplotree (the sample isn't found on y-seq) so am intrigued to know what trajectory this J2a2 line took!

Edit: also, please forgive my ignorance (I'm still learning how all this works), but what is the significance of a HG sample being from 23mofang for determining its age/origin?

parasar
07-27-2020, 12:02 AM
Interesting. I have also seen MF10466 in an Iranian on FtDNA's Haplotree (the sample isn't found on y-seq) so am intrigued to know what trajectory this J2a2 line took!

Edit: also, please forgive my ignorance (I'm still learning how all this works), but what is the significance of a HG sample being from 23mofang for determining its age/origin?

My guess was it was found in a Chinese sample. I would say an origin in Iran is also quite possible. An then a spread to inner Asia.

Ahmed Ali
07-27-2020, 12:09 AM
Fascinating. Many thanks for sharing. That would mean that MF10466 so far has been identified in 2 x Pakistani Punjabis (me and HG01589), 1x Iranian and 1x (possible/probable) Chinese sample. And then the closest relatives to us on the tree are the two Russian tatars under J-Y182822.

Quite an interesting dispersal so far, let's hope more samples spring to light in good time!

J Man
07-27-2020, 12:15 AM
My guess would be a very ancient subcontinental line. Perhaps going back to the early emergence of J2a, as MF10466 is from 23Mofang data, and Y182822 is seen in a Russian tatar.

23Mofang hmmmm.

driM7
08-23-2020, 03:35 AM
Do you know of any J2a tribal samples from FTDNA or 23andme?

This is on anothrr matter, not about this thread..

Hi, I am still new to this forum and my private massaging is yet to be activated in order to respond to your question. Give me some time to reserch my 23andMe matches. Straight up, I am yet to identify if any of my matches are that Greek ethnic groups as for Serbian, same too. But of the top of my head, J haplogroup is more present in the region in Serbia where my father was born than anywhere else in Serbia. Again, let me check that out and will get back.
Cheers

J Man
08-23-2020, 04:41 AM
This is on anothrr matter, not about this thread..

Hi, I am still new to this forum and my private massaging is yet to be activated in order to respond to your question. Give me some time to reserch my 23andMe matches. Straight up, I am yet to identify if any of my matches are that Greek ethnic groups as for Serbian, same too. But of the top of my head, J haplogroup is more present in the region in Serbia where my father was born than anywhere else in Serbia. Again, let me check that out and will get back.
Cheers

Ok sounds good thank you.

Ahmed Ali
08-29-2020, 10:03 PM
Fascinating. Many thanks for sharing. That would mean that MF10466 so far has been identified in 2 x Pakistani Punjabis (me and HG01589), 1x Iranian and 1x (possible/probable) Chinese sample. And then the closest relatives to us on the tree are the two Russian tatars under J-Y182822.

Quite an interesting dispersal so far, let's hope more samples spring to light in good time!

Just another update on my (increasingly less) obscure y-dna.

There's a new Bahraini sample under my subclade on Y-full and I've also found that J-Y182822 has been reported in ancient samples recovered from Seh Gabi (Iran) and Sappali Tepe (BMAC/Uzbekistan) and modern samples from Iran (a Persian Iranian from Esfahan), an Armenian, an Iraqi Turcoman (Bayat with roots in Iran) and A Turk from Keysaria.

Any thoughts on a potential point of origin? I'm thinking BMAC or Eastern Iranic, but atm it's proving difficult to determine. Essentially, I'm trying to work out whether this (realistically) could have come to South Asia with the Mughals as my family stories say..

tipirneni
09-01-2020, 08:47 PM
Just another update on my (increasingly less) obscure y-dna.

There's a new Bahraini sample under my subclade on Y-full and I've also found that J-Y182822 has been reported in ancient samples recovered from Seh Gabi (Iran) and Sappali Tepe (BMAC/Uzbekistan) and modern samples from Iran (a Persian Iranian from Esfahan), an Armenian, an Iraqi Turcoman (Bayat with roots in Iran) and A Turk from Keysaria.

Any thoughts on a potential point of origin? I'm thinking BMAC or Eastern Iranic, but atm it's proving difficult to determine. Essentially, I'm trying to work out whether this (realistically) could have come to South Asia with the Mughals as my family stories say..

It shows very old TMCA. Any thing can happen given that age especially we have seen BMAC, Inamgaoan CHL, Madra, Parthian, Kushan, Iranian after establishment of Sultanate, Mughals etc...

subzero85
09-20-2020, 12:50 AM
It shows very old TMCA. Any thing can happen given that age especially we have seen BMAC, Inamgaoan CHL, Madra, Parthian, Kushan, Iranian after establishment of Sultanate, Mughals etc...

Same problem that I have.

I'll simply have to be patient and wait for more people to test. 4800 TMRCA is ridiculous.

kaazi
10-31-2020, 03:49 PM
j2a1 Ezhava Dravidian South India
J2a1>PF5169 59.9% 20.9% J2a1h2>Z7700 NEPL1 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa
J2a1>PF5169 86% NEPL2 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa
J2a1>M319 NEPL3 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa
J2a1>M319 NEPL3 Tibeto-Burman Caste North India Nepal Thapa J2a-M410
J2a1>Z6065 ICC1 Indo-European Caste Central India Madhya Pradesh Baghel
J2a1>Z6065 51.2% J2a1h2>Z7700 44.3% INC4 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Uttar Pradesh
J2a1>Z6065 INwNm1 Indo-European Nomadic Northwest India Rajasthan Banjara
J2a1h2>PF5401 47.7% J2a1h2>Z7700 37.6% J2a1>Z6065 13.6% ITr2 Indo-European Tribe Northwest India Gujarat Bhil
J2a1h2>Z7700 88.5% INWC1 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Haryana Kamboj
J2a1>PF5169 83.8% INWC3 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Haryana Kamboj J2a-M410
J2a1h2>Z7700 IPTG1 Indo-European Nomadic Northwest India Gujarat Kathodi
J2a1h2>Z7700 IPTG3 Indo-European PTG Northwest India Gujarat Kolcha
J2a1>PF5169 INWC5 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Gujarat Lohana
J2a1h2>Z7700 INWC7 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Gujarat Lohana
J2a1>Z6065 100% INWC9 Indo-European Caste Northwest India Gujarat Lohana

J2a1>Z6065 DSTr2 Dravidian Tribe South India Tamil Nadu Baduga
J2a1h2>PF5401 DSTr4 Dravidian Tribe South India Tamil Nadu Baduga
J2a1h2>Z7700 DPTG1 Dravidian PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Chenchu
J2a1>M319 DPTG3 Dravidian PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Chenchu
J2a1>PF5169 DPTG4 Dravidian PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Chenchu
J2a1h2>Z387 DSTr5 Dravidian Tribe Southwest India Karnataka Halakki
J2a1h2>Z7700 DPTG6 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Kota
J2a1>PF5169 IPTG4 Indo-European PTG South India Andhra Pradesh Koti
J2a1>PF5169 100% DSC4 Dravidian Caste South India Tamil Nadu Lingayat

J2a2-PF5008 100% INC5 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Uttar Pradesh
J2a2-PF5008 DPTG7 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Malaikuruwar
J2a1>Z6065 DPTG8 Dravidian PTG South India Kerala Malayan
J2a1>PF5169 DSNm1 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Pichakuntla/Mondi
J2a1>Z6065 DSNm2 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Pichakuntla/Mondi
J2a1h2>Z7700 DSNm3 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Pichakuntla/Mondi
J2a1h2>Z7700 ITr3 Indo-European Tribe South India Andhra Pradesh Sugali J2a-M410

J2a1h2>Z7700 54.8% J2a1>Z6065 38% DPTG10 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Toda J2a-M410 J2a M68
J2a1>Z6065 30.5% J2a1h2>Z7700 29% J2a1b>Z467>L210 25.2% DPTG12 Dravidian PTG South India Tamil Nadu Toda
J2a1>Z6065 100% DSC5 Dravidian Caste South India Pondicherry Yadav

J2a1h2>Z7700 100% DSC7 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Yadav
J2a1h2>Z7700 100% DSNm4 Dravidian Nomadic South India Andhra Pradesh Yanadi
J2a1>Z6065 ITr4 Indo-European Tribe West India Maharashtra Mahadev Koli
J2a2-PF5008 100% INC5 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Uttar Pradesh

J2a1b>Z467>L210 30.2% J2a1>PF5169 26.2% J2a1h2>Z7700 16.7% J2a1>M319 16.3% ICC2 Indo-European Caste Central India Chhattisgarh Pandit
J2a1b>Z7671 95.2% INC2 Indo-European Caste North India Kashmir Kashmiri Pandit

j2a1c Reddy
j2a1j Jat
j2a1c Jat

J2a1h2>Z7700 63.5% J2a1b>Z467>L210 31% ICC3 Indo-European Caste Central India Chhattisgarh Rajpoot
J2a1h2>Z7700 79.6% J2a1>PF5169 20.3% ICC5 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Durgavanshi J2a-M410
J2a1h2>Z7700 100% ITr1 Indo-European Tribe North India Uttar Pradesh Kabutari
J2a1h2>Z7700 100% KMUS1 Indo-European Muslim North India Kashmir Kashmiri Muslim
J2a1h2>Z387 60.2% J2a1h2>PF5401 33.8% INC1 Indo-European Caste North India Kashmir Kashmiri Pandit
J2a1h2>Z7700 90.3% INC3 Indo-European Caste North India Uttar Pradesh Khatri

J2a2-PF5008 INMC1 Indo-European Nomadic Central India Chhattisgarh Bahelia
J2a2-PF5008 DCTr1 Dravidian Tribe Central India Chhattisgarh Gond

j2a3 Toda kota vellalar nadar vanniyar brahmin
j2a4 GSB Khatri
J2a4h2 Syrian christian


The Color green are all Tribal people. Other are caste people. The distribution looks like it was introduced in multiple waves though some of the major ones are present in Caste and Tribal people in same manner suggests spread before formation of those tribes/castes.

It's very surprising that 3 Tibeto-Burmese of Nepal had J2a1. What would be the % of the J2a1 among total tested? Is it sure these "Thapa"s are not Indo-Aryans but Tibeto-Burmese? Based on this study Gayden (2007), Tibeto-Burmese (Tamangs) don't have any J2a-M410 while Tibetans have only 1 out of 156 tested.
40857

Kulin
10-31-2020, 03:51 PM
It's very surprising that 3 Tibeto-Burmese of Nepal had J2a1. What would be the % of the J2a1 among total tested? Is it sure these "Thapa"s are not Indo-Aryans but Tibeto-Burmese? Based on this study Gayden (2007), Tibeto-Burmese (Tamangs) don't have any J2a-M410 while Tibetans have only 1 out of 156 tested.
40857

Likely mislabeled Chhetris.

parasar
11-15-2020, 09:33 PM
Likely mislabeled Chhetris.

There is J2a in the area especially in the Tharu
J2xJ2b2
Newar Nepal 0.061
Kathmandu Nepal 0.039
Tharu_Butwal Nepal 0.1
Tharu_Tulsipur Nepal 0.048
Tharu_Chitwan Nepal 0.09
Tharu_Morgan Nepal 0.135
Tharu_Haldwani India 0.091
Tharu_Nainital India 0.087
Tharu_Gorakhpur India 0.132
Tharu_Allahabad India 0.135
Tharu_Deoria India 0.149
Tharu_Mahrajganj India 0.071
Tibet Tibet 0.006
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fejhg.2014.36/MediaObjects/41431_2014_BFejhg201436_MOESM20_ESM.xls


https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-9-154/MediaObjects/12862_2008_Article_1068_Fig3_HTML.jpg?as=webp


"The most prominent is J2a*-M410 sub-haplogroup with a frequency of 27.8% in Dhimal, albeit found to be absent or negligibly present in other TBs from India.13 Incidentally, it was found to be 6.1% in one of the TB groups (Newar) from Nepal."
https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201198

kaazi
11-21-2020, 05:50 AM
There is J2a in the area especially in the Tharu
J2xJ2b2
Newar Nepal 0.061
Kathmandu Nepal 0.039
Tharu_Butwal Nepal 0.1
Tharu_Tulsipur Nepal 0.048
Tharu_Chitwan Nepal 0.09
Tharu_Morgan Nepal 0.135
Tharu_Haldwani India 0.091
Tharu_Nainital India 0.087
Tharu_Gorakhpur India 0.132
Tharu_Allahabad India 0.135
Tharu_Deoria India 0.149
Tharu_Mahrajganj India 0.071
Tibet Tibet 0.006
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fejhg.2014.36/MediaObjects/41431_2014_BFejhg201436_MOESM20_ESM.xls


https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-9-154/MediaObjects/12862_2008_Article_1068_Fig3_HTML.jpg?as=webp


"The most prominent is J2a*-M410 sub-haplogroup with a frequency of 27.8% in Dhimal, albeit found to be absent or negligibly present in other TBs from India.13 Incidentally, it was found to be 6.1% in one of the TB groups (Newar) from Nepal."
https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201198

The last name "Thapa" is shared by Chhetris and Magars only not the Tharus/Dhimals. It's a old military rank in the medieval Khasa kingdom. Anyway, interesting amount of J2a in the Tharu/Dhimal community since they're noticeably different than other Terai communities (high East Asian in them); might have been some Gangetic males entering Tharu community?

That 69% R1a in Hindu-Terai, it has some C, N1 and O3 haplo as well. What caste/ethnic groups could it be? I guess many of them are Brahmins and some Tibeto-Burmese/Tharu Hindus as well in the sampling.

tipirneni
11-21-2020, 03:19 PM
The last name "Thapa" is shared by Chhetris and Magars only not the Tharus/Dhimals. It's a old military rank in the medieval Khasa kingdom. Anyway, interesting amount of J2a in the Tharu/Dhimal community since they're noticeably different than other Terai communities (high East Asian in them); might have been some Gangetic males entering Tharu community?

That 69% R1a in Hindu-Terai, it has some C, N1 and O3 haplo as well. What caste/ethnic groups could it be? I guess many of them are Brahmins and some Tibeto-Burmese/Tharu Hindus as well in the sampling.

There might be a small cluster of founder effect there. I have seen few Tharu samples matching very high with other Indian. eg. GSM828570 Tharus Uttar Pradesh India D254 sample is matching one of my kit at 5.133 distance which is just 33% away from Gujarati D.

Ahmed Ali
11-27-2020, 05:17 PM
It shows very old TMCA. Any thing can happen given that age especially we have seen BMAC, Inamgaoan CHL, Madra, Parthian, Kushan, Iranian after establishment of Sultanate, Mughals etc...

A very quick update. I have now tested positive for J2-MF10475. According to SNP tracker, this SNP has a formation date of circa 1500 BCE, which is a lot better than previous estimated TMRCA! Apparently MF10475 is found in 2 Armenians, 1 Iranian, 1 Bayat and a Punjabi so far (the Iranian chalcolithic and Sappali Tepe samples were MF10475-) and has also been present in the Armenia region since ancient times (I read this on Molgen).

parasar
11-27-2020, 05:25 PM
A very quick update. I have now tested positive for J2-MF10475. According to SNP tracker, this SNP has a formation date of circa 1500 BCE, which is a lot better than previous estimated TMRCA! Apparently MF10475 is found in 2 Armenians, 1 Iranian, 1 Bayat and a Punjabi so far (the Iranian chalcolithic and Sappali Tepe samples were MF10475-) and has also been present in the Armenia region since ancient times (I read this on Molgen).

This SNP is also from 23mofang data.

maroco
11-27-2020, 05:28 PM
A very quick update. I have now tested positive for J2-MF10475. According to SNP tracker, this SNP has a formation date of circa 1500 BCE, which is a lot better than previous estimated TMRCA! Apparently MF10475 is found in 2 Armenians, 1 Iranian, 1 Bayat and a Punjabi so far (the Iranian chalcolithic and Sappali Tepe samples were MF10475-) and has also been present in the Armenia region since ancient times (I read this on Molgen).

J2a is usually associated with Asia Minor etc turkey or Armenian very interesting

tipirneni
11-27-2020, 05:40 PM
A very quick update. I have now tested positive for J2-MF10475. According to SNP tracker, this SNP has a formation date of circa 1500 BCE, which is a lot better than previous estimated TMRCA! Apparently MF10475 is found in 2 Armenians, 1 Iranian, 1 Bayat and a Punjabi so far (the Iranian chalcolithic and Sappali Tepe samples were MF10475-) and has also been present in the Armenia region since ancient times (I read this on Molgen).

Maybe Parthian or some related Iran dynasty. yeah that sounds interesting

Ahmed Ali
11-27-2020, 05:49 PM
Yeah, I guess it could be related to any of those old empires from about that time onwards tbh..

my family tradition is that my paternal line came to the subcontinent in the 18th/19th century - i'm now beginning to think that may be true (G25 results + DNA matches + y-dna seem to point in the direction of something anatolian from what I + others have been able to tell)

parasar
11-27-2020, 06:05 PM
I2337 I1 J2a1h2 Tepe_Hissar_C 3641-3519 calBCE (478030 BP, PSUAMS-1919) Iran

S8724.E1.L1 I1 J2a1 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1 2650-2550 BCE Iran
S8725.E1.L1 J1 J2a1 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1 2800 BCE Iran
S8726.E1.L1 U2c1 J2a1h Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 3200-3000 BCE Iran
S8728.E1.L1 R7 J2a Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3 2550-2450 BCE Iran

I7421 .. J2a Sappali_Tepe_BA 1931-1767 calBCE (352525 BP, PSUAMS-3120) Uzbekistan
I7494 .. J2a1 Sappali_Tepe_BA 2010-1883 calBCE (357520 BP, PSUAMS-3230) Uzbekistan
I4794 C4 J2a1h2 Taldysay_MLBA2 1600-1400 BCE Kazakhstan
I4157 .. J2a Bustan_BA 1600-1300 BCE Uzbekistan
I4159 T1 J2a1 Bustan_BA 1600-1300 BCE Uzbekistan

I12463 Pakistan_IA_Katelai J2a1a
I12465 Pakistan_IA_Katelai J2a1a1b3
I5396 U4d J2a1 Katelai_IA 904-817 calBCE (271520 BP, PSUAMS-2790) Pakistan