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SUPREEEEEME
07-10-2021, 05:11 AM
I am becoming very open to the idea that J-L70 originated in Anatolia. I am also open to the idea that it originated in the Iran or the Caucasus.
It's because modern Levantines have ancestry from Anatolia, Iran, and the Caucasus.
If modern Levantines have ancestry from Anatolia, Iran, and the Caucasus, then so do the Jewish ethnic peoples.
Having a haplogroup group branch that is of an older Anatolian, Iranian, and/or Caucasian branch doesn't rule out a Levantine origin.

My maternal grandmother's father Harold George Walker's Y DNA subclade was J-PH3125 which is a branch of J-PF5456 (a J-L70 branch) which jewishdna.net has listed as one of the Ashkenazi Jewish branches.
His ancestry was Colonial European American of mainly English ancestry with Scottish, German, Swiss, Irish, Dutch, Welsh, and Frisian.
His most distant known ancestor is my 6th Great Grandfather William Walker who was a Colonial British Virginian who lived from 1725 to 1806 and is listed as having origins in England by FamilyTreeDNA by my fellow William Walker descendant (actually a descendant of my 5th Great Grandfather Peyton Walker, a son of William Walker) that took the full Y DNA test.

https://jewishdna.net/AB-045.html


A DNA study says that humans migrated from modern-day Turkey and the Zagos mounts of Iran to Israel's Upper Galilelee region around 6,500 years ago, helping to introduce cultural changes in the southern Levant during the Late Chalcolithic period.
It is one of the largest DNA studies carried out in the ancient Near East, the researchers conducted whole-genome analysis on 22 skeletons from Peqiin Cave in northern Israel.
The humans buried in Peqiin Cave were part of a homogeneous population that can be modeled as deriving 57% of its ancestry from groups related to those of the local Levant Neolithic, 17% from groups related to those of the Iran Chalcolithic, and 26% from groups related to those of the Anatolian Neolithic.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/6500-year-old-dna-ancient-migration/?fbclid=IwAR1_AFYKt_yPETGBPal8ORzColZcaPiOxNeZE0uL galCiTHzxFIa49NvwW0

New insight into the Canaanites history based on a new genome-wide analysis of ancient DNA collected from 73 individuals. Evidence for the movement of people over long periods of time from the northeast of the Ancient Near East, including modern Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan, into the Southern Levant region have been observed.
The genetic study suggest that the Canaanites descend from a mixture of earlier local Neolithic populations and populations related to Chalcocithic Iran and/or the Bronze Age Caucasus.
The researchers studied the relationship of the Canaanites to modern-day populations. While the direct contribution of the Canaanites to modern populations cannot be accurately quantified, the data suggest that a broader Near Eastern component, including populations from the Caucasus and the Zagros Mountains, likely account for more than 50 percent of the ancestry of many Arabic-speaking and Jewish groups living in the region today.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/238116684510238

Due to J-L70's wide spread, it's origin is rather ambiguous. Ancient DNA samples will likely clear it all up.

Mrtni
07-10-2021, 01:20 PM
I see that your subclade is a branch of J-PF5456.
My maternal grandmother's father Harold George Walker's Y DNA subclade was J-PH3125 which is a branch of J-PF5456 which jewishdna.net has listed as one of the Ashkenazi Jewish branches.
His ancestry was Colonial European American of mainly English ancestry with Scottish, German, Swiss, Irish, Dutch, Welsh, and Frisian.
His most distant known ancestor is my 6th Great Grandfather William Walker who was a Colonial British Virginian who lived from 1725 to 1806 and is listed as having origins in England by FamilyTreeDNA by my fellow William Walker descendant (actually a descendant of my 5th Great Grandfather Peyton Walker, a son of William Walker) that took the full Y DNA test.

https://jewishdna.net/AB-045.html

Well, the main problem is that we Turks cannot really track down our pedigree because most family trees are just an oral pass on. But I dont know if Central Anatolia ever had a Jewish population. I am quite sure they didnt experience any genetic flow from Ashkenazi people. Last but not least the Y-DNA is quite interesting because we can track it down but it is only a really small part of your whole ancestry.

Thank you for the subclades information !

Emre Altug
07-10-2021, 03:50 PM
New : id:YF87184 J-Z40772*
No country of origin specified yet.

Emre Altug
07-10-2021, 04:02 PM
Well, the main problem is that we Turks cannot really track down our pedigree because most family trees are just an oral pass on. But I don‘t know if Central Anatolia ever had a Jewish population. I am quite sure they didn’t experience any genetic flow from Ashkenazi people. Last but not least the Y-DNA is quite interesting because we can track it down but it is only a really small part of your whole ancestry.

Thank you for the subclades information !

You are correct, Anatolia didn't have a significant Jewish or Semite presence (except Assyrians)
We (L70 Turks) either rooted from Anatolia, or Oghuz also had L70 among them. Or both. But the second possibility is a bit far from reality looking at the high variance and presence in the Near East and Southeast Europe.

Glaucus
07-10-2021, 05:09 PM
J-PF5456 doesn't necessarily mean that a person having it is Jewish.
I already told that my maternal 6th Great Grandfather William Walker was a British Virginian with this Y DNA branch.
I am open to the idea that it may be Anatolian because Anatolian is part of the ancestry of Levantines.
There are some people that believe that it's Levantine, and there are some people that believe that it's Anatolian.
Because of the history of Romans and Jews being in the United Kingdom, I cannot rule out Roman nor Jewish for any of my 6th Great Grandfather William's patrilineal ancestors.
I don't even know who William's parents were.
With unknown ancestors in a person's family tree, anything is possible.



As for Anatolia didn't have a significant Jewish or Semite presence,


Like I pointed out weeks ago, Anatolia does have a Jewish history


The Republic of Turkey, a transcontinental country located mostly on Anatolia in Western Asia and East Thrace in Southeastern Europe, has a Jewish history dating back possibly to the 4th century B.C.E. Today the Jewish population of Turkey is approximately 18,500, with 17,000 Jews living in Istanbul.

Early History
At midnight August 2, 1492, when Columbus embarked on what would become his most famous expedition to the New World, his fleet departed from the relatively unknown seaport of Palos because the shipping lanes of Cadiz and Seville were clogged with Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain by the Edict of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain.


The Jews forced either to convert to Christianity or to "leave" the country under menace "they dare not return... not so much as to take a step on them not trespass upon them in any manner whatsoever" left their land, their property, their belongings all that was theirs and familiar to them rather than abandon their beliefs, their traditions, their heritage.

In the faraway Ottoman Empire, one ruler - Sultan Bayazid II- extended an immediate welcome to the persecuted Jews of Spain, the Sephardim.

The history of the Jews in Anatolia, however, started many centuries before the migration of Sephardic Jews. Remnants of Jewish settlement from the 4th century B.C.E. have been uncovered in the Aegean region, where Jews lived and traded in the ancient cities of Ephesus, Sardis, Pergamon, and Smyrna (renamed Izmir by the Turks). The historian Josephus Flavius relates that Aristotle "met Jewish people with whom he had an exchange of views during his trip across Asia Minor."

Second and third century Greek inscriptions tell of a flourishing Jewish community in Smyrna. Ancient synagogue ruins have also been found in Sardis, near Izmir, dating from 220 B.C.E. and traces of other Jewish settlements have been discovered near Bursa, in the southeast and along the Aegean, Mediterranean and Black Sea coasts. A bronze column found in Ankara confirms the rights the Emperor Augustus accorded the Jews of Asia Minor.

Jewish communities in Anatolia flourished and continued to prosper through the Turkish conquest. When the Ottomans captured Bursa in 1324 and made it their capital, they found a Jewish community oppressed under Byzantine rule. The Jews welcomed the Ottomans as saviors. Sultan Orhan gave them permission to build the Etz ha-Hayyim (Tree of Life) synagogue which remained in service until 50 years ago.

Early in the 14th century, when the Ottomans had established their capital at Edirne, Jews from Europe, including Karaites, migrated there.1 Similarly, Jews expelled from Hungary in 1376, from France by Charles VI in September 1394, and from Sicily early in the 15th century found refuge in the Ottoman Empire. In the 1420s, Jews from Salonika then under Venetian control fled to Edirne.2

Ottoman rule was much kinder than Byzantine rule had been. In fact, from the early 15th century on, the Ottomans actively encouraged Jewish immigration. Western European Jews received three invitations to settle in the Ottoman Empire. Two were from Muslim sultans, Muhammad (Mehmet) II in the middle of the 15th century and Bayazid II in 1492. The third came in a letter sent by Rabbi Yitzhak Sarfati (from Edirne) in 1454 to Jewish communities in Europe in the first part of the century that "invited his coreligionists to leave the torments they were enduring in Christiandom and to seek safety and prosperity in Turkey."3 Rabbi Sarfati wrote that here every man dwells at peace under his own vine and fig tree.3

When Mehmet II "the Conqueror" took Constantinople in 1453, he encountered an oppressed Romaniot (Byzantine) Jewish community which welcomed him with enthusiasm. Sultan Mehmet II issued a proclamation to all Jews "... to ascend the site of the Imperial Throne, to dwell in the best of the land, each beneath his Dine and his fig tree, with silver and with gold, with wealth and with cattle...".4

In 1470, Jews expelled from Bavaria by Ludvig X found refuge in the Ottoman Empire.5


A Haven for Sephardic Jews
Sultan Bayazid II's offer of refuge gave new hope to the persecuted Sephardim. In 1492, the Sultan ordered the governors of the provinces of the Ottoman Empire "not to refuse the Jews entry or cause them difficulties, but to receive them cordially."6 According to Bernard Lewis, "the Jews were not just permitted to settle in the Ottoman lands, but were encouraged, assisted and sometimes even compelled".

Immanual Aboab attributes to Bayazid II the famous remark that "the Catholic monarch Ferdinand was wrongly considered as wise, since he impoverished Spain by the expulsion of the Jews, and enriched Turkey."7

The arrival of the Sephardim altered the structure of the community and the original group of Romaniote Jews was totally absorbed.

These Jews settled in various Ottoman cities, such as Salonika, but it was not until the late sixteenth century that they moved to Smyrna, which has become a major port city. The arrival of the Sephardim altered the structure of the community and the original group of Romaniote Jews (descendants of Greek-speaking Jews) was totally absorbed.

Over the centuries an increasing number of European Jews, escaping persecution in their native countries, settled in the Ottoman Empire. In 1537 the Jews expelled from Apulia (Italy) after the city fell under Papal control, in 1542 those expelled from Bohemia by King Ferdinand found a safe haven in the Ottoman Empire.8 In March of 1556, Sultan Suleyman "the Magnificent" wrote a letter to Pope Paul IV asking for the immediate release of the Ancona Marranos, which he declared to be Ottoman citizens. The Pope had no other alternative than to release them, the Ottoman Empire being the "Super Power" of those days.

By 1477, Jewish households in Istanbul numbered 1,647 or 11% of the total. Half a century later, 8,070 Jewish houses were listed in the city.


The Life of Ottoman Jewry
For 300 years following the expulsion, the prosperity and creativity of the Ottoman Jews rivaled that of the Golden Age of Spain. Four Turkish cities: Istanbul, Izmir, Safed and Salonica became the centers of Sephardic Jewry. The Tu BShevat seder was developed in Izmir in the seventeenth century. The creator may have been Shabetai Zvi, the pseudo Messiah and founder of the Sabbatean movement. In reaction to Zvi, Izmir's Jews withdrew from any secular pursuits.

Most of the court physicians were Jews: Hakim Yakoub, Joseph and Moshe Hamon, Daniel Fonseca, Gabriel Buenauentura to name only very few ones.

One of the most significant innovations that Jews brought to the Ottoman Empire was the printing press. In 1493, only one year after their expulsion from Spain, David & Samuel ibn Nahmias established the first Hebrew printing press in Istanbul.

Ottoman diplomacy was often carried out by Jews. Joseph Nasi, appointed the Duke of Naxos, was the former Portuguese Marrano Joao Miques. Another Portuguese Marrano, Aluaro Mandes, was named Duke of Mytylene in return of his diplomatic services to the Sultan. Salamon ben Nathan Eskenazi arranged the first diplomatic ties with the British Empire. Jewish women such as Dona Gracia Mendes Nasi "La Seniora" and Esther Kyra exercised considerable influence in the Court.

In the free air of the Ottoman Empire, Jewish literature flourished. Joseph Caro compiled the Shulkhan Arukh. Shlomo haLevi Alkabes composed the Lekhah Dodi a hymn which welcomes the Sabbath according to both Sephardic and Ashkenazi ritual. Jacob Culi began to write the famous MeAm Loez. Rabbi Abraham ben Isaac Assa became known as the father of Judeo-Spanish literature.

On October 27, 1840 Sultan Abdulmecid issued his famous ferman concerning the "Blood Libel Accusation" saying: "... and for the love we bear to our subjects, we cannot permit the Jewish nation, whose innocence for the crime alleged against them is evident, to be worried and tormented as a consequence of accusations which have not the least foundation in truth...".

Under Ottoman tradition, each non-Muslim religious community was responsible for its own institutions, including schools. In the early 19th century, Abraham de Camondo established a modern school, "La Escola", causing a serious conflict between conservative and secular rabbis which was only settled by the intervention of Sultan Abdulaziz in 1864. The same year the Takkanot haKehilla (By-laws of the Jewish Community) was published, defining the structure of the Jewish community.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/turkey-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Mrtni
07-10-2021, 05:10 PM
You are correct, Anatolia didn't have a significant Jewish or Semite presence (except Assyrians)
We (L70 Turks) either rooted from Anatolia, or Oghuz also had L70 among them. Or both. But the second possibility is a bit far from reality looking at the high variance and presence in the Near East and Southeast Europe.

I have an assumption that it came from Eastern Anatolia. MyHeritage showed me a genetic cluster with people from Malatya and Aleppo, which should not be taken too seriously. Still, they managed to show me that my West Asian part has its roots in Erzurum. 23andMe also gave me almost a quarter Eastern Anatolian. I know that genetic companies are not very precisely but both gave me Eastern Anatolia. So I’d also prefer that our J-L70 didn’t come with the Oghuz. I‘d really like to know the diversity of L70 in Turkey and where you have the biggest cluster of it.

Mrtni
07-10-2021, 05:16 PM
J-PF5456 doesn't necessarily mean that a person having it is Jewish.
As I already told that my maternal 6th Great Grandfather William Walker was a British Virginian with this Y DNA branche
I am open to the idea that it may be Anatolian because Anatolian is part of the ancestry of Levantines.
There are some people that believe that it's Levantine, and there are some people that believe that it's Anatolian.
Because of the history of Romans and Jews being in the United Kingdom, I cannot rule out Roman nor Jewish for any of my 6th Great Grandfather William's patrilineal ancestors.
I certainly don't know who William's parents were.
With unknown ancestors in a person's family tree, anything is possible.


As for Anatolia didn't have a significant Jewish or Semite presence, that's incorrect

Like I pointed out weeks ago, Anatolia does have a Jewish history


The Republic of Turkey, a transcontinental country located mostly on Anatolia in Western Asia and East Thrace in Southeastern Europe, has a Jewish history dating back possibly to the 4th century B.C.E. Today the Jewish population of Turkey is approximately 18,500, with 17,000 Jews living in Istanbul.

Early History
At midnight August 2, 1492, when Columbus embarked on what would become his most famous expedition to the New World, his fleet departed from the relatively unknown seaport of Palos because the shipping lanes of Cadiz and Seville were clogged with Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain by the Edict of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain.


The Jews forced either to convert to Christianity or to "leave" the country under menace "they dare not return... not so much as to take a step on them not trespass upon them in any manner whatsoever" left their land, their property, their belongings all that was theirs and familiar to them rather than abandon their beliefs, their traditions, their heritage.

In the faraway Ottoman Empire, one ruler - Sultan Bayazid II- extended an immediate welcome to the persecuted Jews of Spain, the Sephardim.

The history of the Jews in Anatolia, however, started many centuries before the migration of Sephardic Jews. Remnants of Jewish settlement from the 4th century B.C.E. have been uncovered in the Aegean region, where Jews lived and traded in the ancient cities of Ephesus, Sardis, Pergamon, and Smyrna (renamed Izmir by the Turks). The historian Josephus Flavius relates that Aristotle "met Jewish people with whom he had an exchange of views during his trip across Asia Minor."

Second and third century Greek inscriptions tell of a flourishing Jewish community in Smyrna. Ancient synagogue ruins have also been found in Sardis, near Izmir, dating from 220 B.C.E. and traces of other Jewish settlements have been discovered near Bursa, in the southeast and along the Aegean, Mediterranean and Black Sea coasts. A bronze column found in Ankara confirms the rights the Emperor Augustus accorded the Jews of Asia Minor.

Jewish communities in Anatolia flourished and continued to prosper through the Turkish conquest. When the Ottomans captured Bursa in 1324 and made it their capital, they found a Jewish community oppressed under Byzantine rule. The Jews welcomed the Ottomans as saviors. Sultan Orhan gave them permission to build the Etz ha-Hayyim (Tree of Life) synagogue which remained in service until 50 years ago.

Early in the 14th century, when the Ottomans had established their capital at Edirne, Jews from Europe, including Karaites, migrated there.1 Similarly, Jews expelled from Hungary in 1376, from France by Charles VI in September 1394, and from Sicily early in the 15th century found refuge in the Ottoman Empire. In the 1420s, Jews from Salonika then under Venetian control fled to Edirne.2

Ottoman rule was much kinder than Byzantine rule had been. In fact, from the early 15th century on, the Ottomans actively encouraged Jewish immigration. Western European Jews received three invitations to settle in the Ottoman Empire. Two were from Muslim sultans, Muhammad (Mehmet) II in the middle of the 15th century and Bayazid II in 1492. The third came in a letter sent by Rabbi Yitzhak Sarfati (from Edirne) in 1454 to Jewish communities in Europe in the first part of the century that "invited his coreligionists to leave the torments they were enduring in Christiandom and to seek safety and prosperity in Turkey."3 Rabbi Sarfati wrote that “here every man dwells at peace under his own vine and fig tree.”3

When Mehmet II "the Conqueror" took Constantinople in 1453, he encountered an oppressed Romaniot (Byzantine) Jewish community which welcomed him with enthusiasm. Sultan Mehmet II issued a proclamation to all Jews "... to ascend the site of the Imperial Throne, to dwell in the best of the land, each beneath his Dine and his fig tree, with silver and with gold, with wealth and with cattle...".4

In 1470, Jews expelled from Bavaria by Ludvig X found refuge in the Ottoman Empire.5


A Haven for Sephardic Jews
Sultan Bayazid II's offer of refuge gave new hope to the persecuted Sephardim. In 1492, the Sultan ordered the governors of the provinces of the Ottoman Empire "not to refuse the Jews entry or cause them difficulties, but to receive them cordially."6 According to Bernard Lewis, "the Jews were not just permitted to settle in the Ottoman lands, but were encouraged, assisted and sometimes even compelled".

Immanual Aboab attributes to Bayazid II the famous remark that "the Catholic monarch Ferdinand was wrongly considered as wise, since he impoverished Spain by the expulsion of the Jews, and enriched Turkey."7

The arrival of the Sephardim altered the structure of the community and the original group of Romaniote Jews was totally absorbed.

These Jews settled in various Ottoman cities, such as Salonika, but it was not until the late sixteenth century that they moved to Smyrna, which has become a major port city. The arrival of the Sephardim altered the structure of the community and the original group of Romaniote Jews (descendants of Greek-speaking Jews) was totally absorbed.

Over the centuries an increasing number of European Jews, escaping persecution in their native countries, settled in the Ottoman Empire. In 1537 the Jews expelled from Apulia (Italy) after the city fell under Papal control, in 1542 those expelled from Bohemia by King Ferdinand found a safe haven in the Ottoman Empire.8 In March of 1556, Sultan Suleyman "the Magnificent" wrote a letter to Pope Paul IV asking for the immediate release of the Ancona Marranos, which he declared to be Ottoman citizens. The Pope had no other alternative than to release them, the Ottoman Empire being the "Super Power" of those days.

By 1477, Jewish households in Istanbul numbered 1,647 or 11% of the total. Half a century later, 8,070 Jewish houses were listed in the city.


The Life of Ottoman Jewry
For 300 years following the expulsion, the prosperity and creativity of the Ottoman Jews rivaled that of the Golden Age of Spain. Four Turkish cities: Istanbul, Izmir, Safed and Salonica became the centers of Sephardic Jewry. The Tu B’Shevat seder was developed in Izmir in the seventeenth century. The creator may have been Shabetai Zvi, the pseudo Messiah and founder of the Sabbatean movement. In reaction to Zvi, Izmir's Jews withdrew from any secular pursuits.

Most of the court physicians were Jews: Hakim Yakoub, Joseph and Moshe Hamon, Daniel Fonseca, Gabriel Buenauentura to name only very few ones.

One of the most significant innovations that Jews brought to the Ottoman Empire was the printing press. In 1493, only one year after their expulsion from Spain, David & Samuel ibn Nahmias established the first Hebrew printing press in Istanbul.

Ottoman diplomacy was often carried out by Jews. Joseph Nasi, appointed the Duke of Naxos, was the former Portuguese Marrano Joao Miques. Another Portuguese Marrano, Aluaro Mandes, was named Duke of Mytylene in return of his diplomatic services to the Sultan. Salamon ben Nathan Eskenazi arranged the first diplomatic ties with the British Empire. Jewish women such as Dona Gracia Mendes Nasi "La Seniora" and Esther Kyra exercised considerable influence in the Court.

In the free air of the Ottoman Empire, Jewish literature flourished. Joseph Caro compiled the Shulkhan Arukh. Shlomo haLevi Alkabes composed the Lekhah Dodi a hymn which welcomes the Sabbath according to both Sephardic and Ashkenazi ritual. Jacob Culi began to write the famous MeAm Loez. Rabbi Abraham ben Isaac Assa became known as the father of Judeo-Spanish literature.

On October 27, 1840 Sultan Abdulmecid issued his famous ferman concerning the "Blood Libel Accusation" saying: "... and for the love we bear to our subjects, we cannot permit the Jewish nation, whose innocence for the crime alleged against them is evident, to be worried and tormented as a consequence of accusations which have not the least foundation in truth...".

Under Ottoman tradition, each non-Muslim religious community was responsible for its own institutions, including schools. In the early 19th century, Abraham de Camondo established a modern school, "La Escola", causing a serious conflict between conservative and secular rabbis which was only settled by the intervention of Sultan Abdulaziz in 1864. The same year the Takkanot haKehilla (By-laws of the Jewish Community) was published, defining the structure of the Jewish community.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/turkey-virtual-jewish-history-tour


I understand what you mean and it is true that the Ottoman Empire had a significant Jewish population. But my paternal family is from central anatolia and there was never a large Jewish settlement. The other question is how Sephardic/Ashkenazi Jews intermingled with the Turkish population.

Glaucus
07-10-2021, 05:29 PM
CAPPADOCIA (Gr. Καπποδοκία), country in Asia Minor, which was made a Roman province by Tiberius in 17 C.E. The first known Jewish settlement there dates back to the second century B.C.E., when Ariarathes, king of Cappadocia, was asked by the Romans to maintain friendly relations with the Jews in view of the treaty between the Hasmoneans and Rome (I Macc. 15:22). In the first century B.C.E. friendly relations existed between the Herodian dynasty and the royal house of Cappadocia. Archelaus, the last Cappadocian king, gave his daughter Glaphyra in marriage to Alexander, the son of Herod (Jos., Ant, 16:11); Agrippa and Herod traveled to Cappadocia together (ibid., 16:23), and Archelaus visited Herod in order to reconcile him with Alexander (ibid., 16:261–69). In the quarrels between members of the Herodian dynasty, Archelaus acted as the mediator and succeeded in bringing a brief peace (Jos., Wars, 1:498–512). In appreciation, Herod reconciled Archelaus with the governor of Syria (Jos., Ant., 16:270). Glaphyra's return to Cappadocia after the execution of her husband Alexander did not mark a rupture of relations with the Herodian dynasty; she had borne Alexander two sons, Alexander and Tigranes (ibid., 17:139), and was subsequently married to Archelaus, the brother of Alexander (ibid., 18:350). Contacts between Cappadocia and Ereẓ Israel were not restricted to the royal families. At a later period, Cappadocian Jews lived in Jerusalem (Acts 2:9), in Sepphoris (TJ, Shev. 9:5, 39a), and in Jaffa (see *Frey in bibl.). A tombstone inscription found at Jaffa mentions a Cappadocian flax merchant buried there. Two Cappadocian sages who had settled in Ereẓ Israel are mentioned: Judah of Cappadocia (TJ, Pe'ah 1:4, 16c; TJ, Kil. 8:1, 31b), and Samuel of Cappadocia (Ḥul. 27b; TJ, Ber. 2:6, 5b). Nathan the Babylonian (Ḥul. 47b; Tosef., Shab. 15:8) and R. Akiva (TJ, Yev. 16:4, 15d) visited Cappadocia, the latter reaching the capital, Megizah (Mazaga) of Cappadocia (Caesarea in Cappadocia). Cappadocia was considered one of the great Jewish settlements, like Babylonia and Alexandria (TJ, Shab. 2:2, 4d). The conditions of life of the Jews in Cappadocia were familiar to the sages, as is evidenced, for example, by their permitting the Cappadocian Jews to use naphtha for their Sabbath lights, since no other oil was available to them (TJ, Shab. 26a; Tosef., Shab. 2:3). Contacts between Ereẓ Israel and Cappadocia are further attested to by the Mishnah (Ket. 13:11), which states that in the view of R. Simeon b. Gamaliel, a Jew who married a woman in Cappadocia and later divorced her in Ereẓ Israel was to pay her ketubbah in Cappadocian currency.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/cappadocia#:~:text=The%20first%20known%20Jewish%20 settlement%20there%20dates%20back,the%20Hasmoneans %20and%20Rome%20%28%20I%20Macc.%2015%3A22%29.


The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia


Ancient province of Asia Minor. It was known to the Jews in its Greek form also, and is often mentioned in the Talmud and the Midrash. The Roman province Cappadocia extended from the Taurus to the Euxine, and from the Halys to the Euphrates. According to Josephus ("Ant." 1:6, § 1) the Cappadocians were formerly called "Mosocheni," the Biblical tribe Meshech, mentioned together with Tubal; and Philo (in treating of Genesis 26:28) is said to have called them "Canaanites." Herodotus speaks of them as "Syrians" (1:72, 5:49, 7:72), and even at the time of Strabo (12:544) they were known among the Greeks as "white Syrians" (λε…κŒƒ…ροι). They must not, however, be classed with the Semites, since the little that remains of their language shows no relationship with Semitic (Gesenius, "Monumenta Ph“niciæ," p. 11).

In the Bible.
The Septuagint, the Syriac Hexapla, the Targum Onkelos, and the Jerusalem Targum identify (Deuteronomy 2:23) the Biblical CAPHTOR with Cappadocia. The targums on Genesis 10:14, Amos 9:7 (here also the LXX. and Symmachus), and Jeremiah 47:4 (also Aquila and Theodotion), identify it also with Caph tor, and the targum on Ezekiel 27:11, with Gammadim, where the reading ("Medes") serves as basis. According to this interpretation, the Bible would testify to an emigration of the Cappadocians from Assyrian and Median regions to Syria and Palestine. For later times, compare Yuḥasin, ed. London, p. 232b.

Josephus.
Josephus is the first to give genuine historical data; he often mentions Cappadocia, since the royal house of Herod was related to that of Cappadocia by the marriage of Herod's son Alexander (subsequently executed) to Glaphyra, daughter of King Archelaus of Cappadocia ("Ant." 16:1, § 2). Glaphyra later greatly shocked the Jews by marrying her brother-in-lawArchelaus (ib. 17:13, § 4). Through these connections with Cappadocia, and perhaps even before that time, Jews came to that country, and Christianity spread among them (Acts 2:9, 18:23; 1:1; on the Hypsistarian sect in Cappadocia, see M. Friedländer, in "Jew. Quart. Rev." 14:300). Jews of Cappadocia also went to the festivals at Jerusalem ("Ant." 16:6, § 7); some settled in Sepphoris (Yer. Sheb. 39a); and R. Judah, R. Yannai, and R. Samuel are mentioned as Cappadocian teachers of the Law. The Halakah mentions the Jews of Cappadocia, saying that they had no vegetal oil, using only mineral oil (naphtha) for lighting on the Sabbath (Tosef., Shab. 2:3; Yer. 4d; Bab. 26a). The Talmud also speaks of robbers in Cappadocia (Tosef., Yeb. 4:5; Bab. 25b), the Cappadocians being in evil repute because of their astuteness. Mazaca, or Cæsarea, the capital of Cappadocia, is also frequently mentioned; R. Akiba visited it on his travels (Tosef., Yeb. 14:5; Yer. 15d; Bab. 25b); and R. Meïr, a teacher of the Law, is also mentioned here (Bab. Yeb. 121a). The importance of Mazaca, and hence that of Cappadocia, is shown most clearly, however, by the fact that when the Persian king, Sapor I., during his war with the Romans, besieged the city, he had 12,000 Jews massacred (M. Ḳ. 26a); it is said that the walls of Laodicea were rent by the noise of the arrows at Mazaca (ib.). Further mention is made of Cappadocian coins (Ket. 13:11) which, according to the correct interpretation (Parḥi, in "Kaftor wa-Feraḥ," ed. Edelmann, p. 29b), were superior to those of Palestine. An ingenious use of the name is seen in the interpretation of a dream (κά€€α = 20; δοκοί = beams), by means of which a hidden treasure was found (Lam. R. 1:1; Gen. R. 68, 12; Ber. 56b; Ma'as. Sh. 55b); this passage likewise indicates that journeys were often undertaken to Cappadocia. The word "Cappadocia," furthermore, was used as a veiled expression for Rome (Tan., Wayera, 13; ib. Bo, 4), and in this sense may be connected with the dream above mentioned. Cappadocia had no independent existence in later times, and hence no further importance for Judaism.

Bibliography:
Knobel, Die Völkertafel der Genesis, pp. 119, 148, 153, Giessen, 1850;
Neubauer, G. T. pp. 317-319;
Böttger, Topographisch-Historisches Lexicon zu den Schriften des Flavius Josephus, p. 75;
Krauss, Lehnwörter, 2:558,559.

https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/eng/tje/c/cappadocia.html



Cappadocia is a historical region in Central Anatolia, largely in the Nevşehir, Kayseri, Kırşehir, Aksaray, Malatya, Sivas and Niğde provinces in Turkey.

Glaucus
07-10-2021, 05:34 PM
I understand what you mean and it is true that the Ottoman Empire had a significant Jewish population. But my paternal family is from central anatolia and there was never a large Jewish settlement. The other question is how Sephardic/Ashkenazi Jews intermingled with the Turkish population.

It wasn't just the Ottoman Empire
Jews were in Turkey over thousand years before the Ottoman Empire existed
Jews settled in Anatolia before the common era
Jewish settled in Cappadocia which was a historical region in Anatolia before the common era


Do you know all your ancestors in your father's family tree........especially on the patrilineal tree?

if you don't know all your ancestors, anything is possible


I am quite the mix myself, and I knew very little about ancestry over a decade ago

I grew up thinking that my European ancestry was Portuguese, English, Spanish, German, French, and Italian


I eventually found out that

My European ancestry consists of Portuguese, Ashkenazi Jewish (from Romania and Latvia), English, German, Scottish, Irish, Swiss, Spanish, French, Welsh, Dutch, and Frisian
imagine all the ancient peoples that I descend from through those

I also have a couple of Danish paternal DNA relative matches.


Because of the Transatlantic Slavetrade, I don't know what my SubSaharan African consists of. I just know that it's mainly West African.
Africa is an extremely diverse continent with thousands of ethnic groups.

I have indigenous American chromosome segments show that I have indigenous ancestry from the Americas

J Man
07-10-2021, 05:35 PM
I have an assumption that it came from Eastern Anatolia. MyHeritage showed me a genetic cluster with people from Malatya and Aleppo, which should not be taken too seriously. Still, they managed to show me that my West Asian part has its roots in Erzurum. 23andMe also gave me almost a quarter Eastern Anatolian. I know that genetic companies are not very precisely but both gave me Eastern Anatolia. So I’d also prefer that our J-L70 didn’t come with the Oghuz. I‘d really like to know the diversity of L70 in Turkey and where you have the biggest cluster of it.

Is your paternal line Yoruk?

Mrtni
07-10-2021, 06:25 PM
It‘s a good question. Do Yrk Turks have a typical phenotype ? I can‘t tell you that because I don‘t know it.

Glaucus
07-10-2021, 07:39 PM
Due to J-L70's wide spread, it's origin is rather ambiguous. Ancient DNA samples will likely clear it all up.

I am not ruling out J-L70 has a Levantine origin. I read all your stuff which I found quite fascinating and insightful, and you do have a good argument that J-L70 is Levantine.
My maternal grandmother's father's Walker Y DNA's J-L70 branch J-P5456 does happen to be listed as an Ashkenazi Jewish Y DNA branch at jewishdna.net

With the genetic findings that Levantines had ancestry from the Anatolia, Caucasus, and Iran, I am open to the possibility that J-L70 could have originated in one of those areas.

I don't believe that J-L70 is of Greek origin though. I certainly don't think it's of Italian region like maciamo suggested.

As I pointed out weeks ago, Turkey, Caucasus, and Iran have an ancient history of Jewish settlers.
Genetic studies show Levantines having ancient Anatolian, Caucasian, and Iranian ancestry.

Altogether, it points to complexity that could make it difficult to figure out where J-L70 originated.

Neolithic samples would definitely help
Bronze age samples won't for obvious reasons.

J.delajara
07-11-2021, 04:01 PM
I am not ruling out J-L70 has a Levantine origin. I read all your stuff which I found quite fascinating and insightful, and you do have a good argument that J-L70 is Levantine.
My maternal grandmother's father's Walker Y DNA's J-L70 branch J-P5456 does happen to be listed as an Ashkenazi Jewish Y DNA branch at jewishdna.net

With the genetic findings that Levantines had ancestry from the Anatolia, Caucasus, and Iran, I am open to the possibility that J-L70 could have originated in one of those areas.

I don't believe that J-L70 is of Greek origin though. I certainly don't think it's of Italian region like maciamo suggested.

As I pointed out weeks ago, Turkey, Caucasus, and Iran have an ancient history of Jewish settlers.
Genetic studies show Levantines having ancient Anatolian, Caucasian, and Iranian ancestry.

Altogether, it points to complexity that could make it difficult to figure out where J-L70 originated.

Neolithic samples would definitely help
Bronze age samples won't for obvious reasons.

I agree with Supreeeme that due to L'70's wide spread, ancient DNA will help us to have a clear picture. Just one comment, Bronze Age samples will certainly help to have further information about this clade, according to its age ( about 3.600 years considering Yfull estimation), and its expansion, fully on Bronze Age. Regards

Glaucus
07-11-2021, 09:29 PM
I accidentally posted a facebook group link for
New insight into the Canaanites history based on a new genome-wide analysis of ancient DNA collected from 73 individuals. Evidence for the movement of people over long periods of time from the northeast of the Ancient Near East, including modern Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan, into the Southern Levant region have been observed.
The genetic study suggest that the Canaanites descend from a mixture of earlier local Neolithic populations and populations related to Chalcocithic Iran and/or the Bronze Age Caucasus.
The researchers studied the relationship of the Canaanites to modern-day populations. While the direct contribution of the Canaanites to modern populations cannot be accurately quantified, the data suggest that a broader Near Eastern component, including populations from the Caucasus and the Zagros Mountains, likely account for more than 50 percent of the ancestry of many Arabic-speaking and Jewish groups living in the region today.

here is the actual link to the article that I read
https://www.heritagedaily.com/2020/05/who-were-the-canaanites-new-insight-from-73-ancient-genomes/129563?fbclid=IwAR0mA1Vv_zWrqHIpmUe7EAaFP5RI-dK-h0QnRWjrwas0trW44PFfpoRRvlA

Emre Altug
07-21-2021, 09:27 PM
New : id:YF87184 J-Z40772*
No country of origin specified yet.

American from Hawaii (Native Language : English)

Emre Altug
07-25-2021, 10:43 AM
New kit under J-Z2177*
id : YF87804
No country of origin specified yet.

Emre Altug
07-26-2021, 09:46 AM
Somebody new under J-CTS3601*
id : YF87840
No country of origin specified yet

SUPREEEEEME
07-27-2021, 06:22 AM
Somebody new under J-CTS3601*
id : YF87840
No country of origin specified yet

As expected, it is a Bulgarian who formed a new branch, J-FTA59649, on FamilyTreeDNA. By virtue of the new branch being formed there, I suspect a Turkish sample will form the clade with him on YFull.

Glaucus
07-30-2021, 10:45 AM
My maternal 6th Great Grandfather William Walker's Y DNA haplogroup is J-PH3125 which is a branch of J-FGC54172.

His closest matches are men in United States with their sharing J-PH3125.

The closest matches after that are men with paternal origins in United States, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Ukraine, Scotland, Hungary, Armenia, Italy, Greece, Czech Republic, Lithuania, France, Norway, Sweden, Portugal, Ireland, Canada, Russian Federation, Romania, Austria, England with their sharing J-FGC54172.

William Walker was a Colonial British Virginian who lived from 1725 to 1806 and is listed as having origins in England.
He's a 3rd great grandfather of my maternal grandmother's father Harold George Walker.

Emre Altug
07-30-2021, 03:41 PM
We have new samples to the L70 tree
J-FGC32685 (id:YF87958)
J-Z39491 (id:YF88093)
Country of origins are not specified.

J.delajara
07-31-2021, 01:35 AM
Hi to everyone, another Belgian from the Namur region under J-Z32111.

Emre Altug
07-31-2021, 08:45 AM
Somebody new under J-Y24651*
id:YF88157
Country of origin not specified

Emre Altug
08-01-2021, 09:01 AM
Somebody new under J-Y24651*
id:YF88157
Country of origin not specified
American from Virginia

Emre Altug
08-02-2021, 07:35 PM
New J-Z2148*
id:YF88298 --> Ecuadorian

New J-Z39493
id:YF88277 --> Country of origin not specified. But obviously Jewish

elimos
08-02-2021, 08:28 PM
New J-Z2148*
id:YF88298 --> Ecuadorian

New J-Z39493
id:YF88277 --> Country of origin not specified. But obviously Jewish

I’m the Ecuadorian sample. As I stated yesterday on Facebook, I was assigned J-FT68079 at FTDNA. I’m not sure if the YFull result contradicts this but we’ll see when it finishes loading I suppose.

J.delajara
08-02-2021, 08:50 PM
I’m the Ecuadorian sample. As I stated yesterday on Facebook, I was assigned J-FT68079 at FTDNA. I’m not sure if the YFull result contradicts this but we’ll see when it finishes loading I suppose.

Hi Elimos. Is it possible to have your paternal surname, is it Spanish?. Thanks a lot in advance. Best Regards

elimos
08-02-2021, 09:06 PM
Juan, i believe we spoke on FTDNA. My surname is Moscoso, simplified from de Lima Moscoso in 1800. I believe the ‘apellido compuesto’ arose because a de Lima man married a Moscoso woman, and the latter was considered more noble. So they stayed with it and then ultimately just became Moscoso. That said, I can’t find any records for a marriage between people with those two surnames but there are many Joseph de Lima who were born in the early 1700s.

J.delajara
08-02-2021, 09:54 PM
Juan, i believe we spoke on FTDNA. My surname is Moscoso, simplified from de Lima Moscoso in 1800. I believe the ‘apellido compuesto’ arose because a de Lima man married a Moscoso woman, and the latter was considered more noble. So they stayed with it and then ultimately just became Moscoso. That said, I can’t find any records for a marriage between people with those two surnames but there are many Joseph de Lima who were born in the early 1700s.

Yes, indeed, Hi. Your paternal surname was de Lima in origin, before becoming a ''apellido compuesto''. It would be quite interesting if you could contact other Lima o de Lima in Spain or Portugal to confirm this, although it is said according to some historians and genealogists for example: ''De e para Portugal. A circulao de nobres na Hispnia medieval (sculos XII a XV)”, Anuario de Estudios Medievales, 40-2, 2010, p. 889-924, y muy especialmente “Os Limas: da Galiza a Giela (sculos XII a XV)”, en Actas do II Congreso internacional A Casa Nobre '', that de Lima Family descents from don Fernando Arias, related to the Court of Len, on the XII century. My advice would be to put Spain on your country of origin, because it should be related to your oldest ancestor, you can read some interesting information regarding de Lima family here: https://journals.openedition.org/e-spania/20540#ftn3 Best regards

elimos
08-03-2021, 12:40 AM
Yes, indeed, Hi. Your paternal surname was de Lima in origin, before becoming a ''apellido compuesto''. It would be quite interesting if you could contact other Lima o de Lima in Spain or Portugal to confirm this, although it is said according to some historians and genealogists for example: ''De e para Portugal. A circulao de nobres na Hispnia medieval (sculos XII a XV)”, Anuario de Estudios Medievales, 40-2, 2010, p. 889-924, y muy especialmente “Os Limas: da Galiza a Giela (sculos XII a XV)”, en Actas do II Congreso internacional A Casa Nobre '', that de Lima Family descents from don Fernando Arias, related to the Court of Len, on the XII century. My advice would be to put Spain on your country of origin, because it should be related to your oldest ancestor, you can read some interesting information regarding de Lima family here: https://journals.openedition.org/e-spania/20540#ftn3 Best
regards

Thank you for your reply.

I did look to see what results I could come across for Lima and de Lima on FTDNA and I found the following:

De lima - Brazil (R-DF27); Lima, Spain (R-M269); De Lima, Brazil (R-P312)

It looks like we have quite a few lineages here, which makes sense because it is a very common surname. Without a paper trail I hesitate to assume that I am linked to the medieval de Lima family of the Kingdom of Galicia, but it could be the case. My ancestor was listed as the 'prime benefactor' in marrying his wife (also my ancestor) so it makes sense he would have less of a clear paper trail. His wife's roots could be traced back from Ecuador to a family in Orense, Galicia on her father's side and to a converso family from around Toledo on her mother's. The only other clue I had was that I had a fairly close match at the Y-37 level with a man who traces his roots back to the Azores in Portugal. I think you are right in assuming that at some point my ancestor had to have been in Galicia or Portugal. Hopefully one day I can find a source that brings me back across the Atlantic.

For now, I am wondering. Are the results I received at FTDNA and Y-Full contradicting? I saw there was some controversy over the existence of the J-Z2148* clade in the first place and I would be curious to know why. Best regards to you as well.

elimos
08-03-2021, 03:38 AM
We now have a Spanish sample in at Z-2148*(ID: YF88334). I wonder if this is the person from the US whose ancestors left Sevilla in the 1700s to the US.

SUPREEEEEME
08-03-2021, 06:31 AM
For now, I am wondering. Are the results I received at FTDNA and Y-Full contradicting? I saw there was some controversy over the existence of the J-Z2148* clade in the first place and I would be curious to know why. Best regards to you as well.

In some respects, they are contradictory. But it is becoming a trend on YFull for folks who sit towards the root of J-L70 to be placed under J-Z2148*. This marker is what is causing the issue, and doesn't exist on FamilyTreeDNA. Other cases of this are the Egyptian, who should actually form a clade with the Palestinian at J-Z423*, and the American who should form a clade with the Jordanian at J-L70*. You should also be J-L70*.


We now have a Spanish sample in at Z-2148*(ID: YF88334). I wonder if this is the person from the US whose ancestors left Sevilla in the 1700s to the US.

In this case, the placement in J-Z2148* is correct, and he will likely split J-PH2725 since his terminal doesn't exist on YFull yet.

elimos
08-03-2021, 02:41 PM
In some respects, they are contradictory. But it is becoming a trend on YFull for folks who sit towards the root of J-L70 to be placed under J-Z2148*. This marker is what is causing the issue, and doesn't exist on FamilyTreeDNA. Other cases of this are the Egyptian, who should actually form a clade with the Palestinian at J-Z423*, and the American who should form a clade with the Jordanian at J-L70*. You should also be J-L70*.


In this case, the placement in J-Z2148* is correct, and he will likely split J-PH2725 since his terminal doesn't exist on YFull yet.

Thanks for the information. So while the US individual whose ancestor was from Spain IS in the right group, he is still fairly high up in the chain of J-L70. It will be interesting to see if over the years we see this happen more commonly with Iberian and Latin American samples of Iberian origin since they do seem to have a lower testing frequency at the moment.

SUPREEEEEME
08-03-2021, 06:27 PM
The phylogeny has been corrected!

https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-L70/

J.delajara
08-03-2021, 06:34 PM
The ''Live'' version on Yfull is showing some changes on L70. As Supreeeme wrote, they are grouping the Egyptian and the Palestinian under Z243 (PF5430), the American, that I understand is Mr. Leperrine of French (Norman) origin, and the Jordanian. Elimos and the Albanian, at the moment, are L70*. They also updated the age of CTS3601 and PF5456

J.delajara
08-03-2021, 06:36 PM
The phylogeny has been corrected!

https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-L70/

Thanks Supreeeme, I was writing my post when you post yours. Regards

elimos
08-03-2021, 07:03 PM
What do we know about the Albanian? How did he test on the BigY?

SUPREEEEEME
08-04-2021, 04:43 AM
What do we know about the Albanian? How did he test on the BigY?

I believe he was tested by the Albanian DNA Project.

Emre Altug
08-04-2021, 04:45 PM
We're growing fast nowadays and i can't even properly trace it :)
id:YF88367 --> J-PH2725*
No country

SUPREEEEEME
08-05-2021, 06:40 AM
We're growing fast nowadays and i can't even properly trace it :)
id:YF88367 --> J-PH2725*
No country

Good to see J-P244 has finally formed. This should be a another Jewish individual - but it looks like there's only one SNP shared, so we'll have to wait and see.

Emre Altug
08-07-2021, 06:39 PM
J-Y24651* is keeping growing
id:YF88512 is a new participant.
No country of origin.

Emre Altug
08-08-2021, 08:29 AM
New American from Minnesota J-S11348*
id:YF88530

J.delajara
08-11-2021, 04:52 PM
Good day to all of you. A new Spanish from Orense, Galicia, Northern Spain, is L70* on Yfull. It seams is Mr Moscoso that changed his country of origin?

elimos
08-11-2021, 05:11 PM
Hi, yes. I was able to confirm my ancestor came from Galicia. They couldn't list the exact place but I picked Orense because it seems most likely given his wife's family came from Orense and the combination of last names also points toward there. It didn't look like there was just a general option for Galicia.

Update: It really is interesting how Galicia has the highest concentration of haplogroups E and one of the highest (along w/ Asturias) for J2 in Spain. Especially considering these areas were some of the most far removed from Al-Andalus.

J.delajara
08-11-2021, 09:54 PM
A Portuguese under Z40772 basal to Z41163.

J.delajara
08-12-2021, 12:47 PM
A Portuguese under Z40772 basal to Z41163.

Now it seams the Portuguese became Southafrican?...

SUPREEEEEME
08-12-2021, 01:00 PM
Now it seams the Portuguese became Southafrican?...

Probably a South African Portuguese.

elimos
08-12-2021, 02:37 PM
I’ve opened a new branch under J-FT68079 with the unknown tester also previously at FT68079.

For now we have:
J-FT68079: Basal Dutch
-> J-FT67656 : Spain (myself) , unknown.

Emre Altug
08-12-2021, 03:03 PM
We have new samples to the L70 tree
J-FGC32685 (id:YF87958)
J-Z39491 (id:YF88093)
Country of origins are not specified.

YF88093 is from Poland

SUPREEEEEME
08-31-2021, 05:53 PM
We have a new ancient sample!

From: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1.full.pdf (Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the
Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples)

Sample: I15517 - J-L70 - 124 - 228 CE - Near East Genetic Cluster

Funnily enough, this appears to be our first case of J-L70 in ancient DNA samples "from the Middle East". We will wait and see when the paper releases, but I reckon he will probably be Anatolian.

Emre Altug
08-31-2021, 06:59 PM
We have a new ancient sample!

From: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1.full.pdf (Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the
Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples)

Sample: I15517 - J-L70 - 124 - 228 CE - Near East Genetic Cluster

Funnily enough, this appears to be our first case of J-L70 in ancient DNA samples "from the Middle East". We will wait and see when the paper releases, but I reckon he will probably be Anatolian.

You are so fast :)

J.delajara
08-31-2021, 11:13 PM
We have a new ancient sample!

From: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1.full.pdf (Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the
Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples)

Sample: I15517 - J-L70 - 124 - 228 CE - Near East Genetic Cluster

Funnily enough, this appears to be our first case of J-L70 in ancient DNA samples "from the Middle East". We will wait and see when the paper releases, but I reckon he will probably be Anatolian.

Thanks a lot Supreeeme. This L70 seems to be western Anatolian/Aegean, or southern Italian as this cluster is similar to the imperial Rome one in Italy, in that case probably this individual was part of the roman Legions that were stationed on Viminacium, really interesting. Best Regards

Emre Altug
09-01-2021, 04:32 PM
Thanks a lot Supreeeme. This L70 seems to be western Anatolian/Aegean, or southern Italian as this cluster is similar to the imperial Rome one in Italy, in that case probably this individual was part of the roman Legions that were stationed on Viminacium, really interesting. Best Regards
Hello Juan,
As Supreeeme posted in or facebook group this chart, it seems that our L70 is Native Anatolian. (Chalcolithic Anatolia with a little hint of Iran Neolithic). Probably similar to the Barcin sample (I1584, Barcın, 3943-3708 BC) and of course, with increased CHG / Iran N component.
Correct me if i'm wrong, please.
46329

J.delajara
09-01-2021, 07:48 PM
Hello Juan,
As Supreeeme posted in or facebook group this chart, it seems that our L70 is Native Anatolian. (Chalcolithic Anatolia with a little hint of Iran Neolithic). Probably similar to the Barcin sample (I1584, Barcın, 3943-3708 BC) and of course, with increased CHG / Iran N component.
Correct me if i'm wrong, please.
46329

Hi Emre, thanks for your comment. We still don't know for sure, it should be Anatolian, but it seems it clusters with the Italian Imperial samples as well, what we've seen, is general information until know, we know it belongs to the ''Near Eastern'' cluster, we don't have much specific information regarding this sample, we also need to have further information from the Magna Graecia samples, to know how close they really are. Although it could also be a roman citizen part of the roman army, at that time the were plenty of roman citizens on Western Anatolia, that was already roman sience the I Century BCE. Unfortunately we don't have information regarding his grave, although the paper states that NE samples, probably belonged to a ''higer statuts'', ''Individuals with Eastern Mediterranean ancestry could have high social status: 3 out of the 4 individuals buried in two sarcophagi (each containing a male-female pair) with exceptionally rich grave goods at the Rit necropolis in Viminacium belonged to the Near Eastern-related cluster''. Due to this information I think they were high rank soldiers or roman public officers. But of course is an Hypothesis. Best Regards
46339

Emre Altug
09-08-2021, 10:34 AM
New sample at J-24651*
id : YF90191
Country of origin not specified yet.

Emre Altug
09-15-2021, 05:46 PM
NEW J-FGC52112 --> American from Washington.
id:YF90481

leorcooper19
09-15-2021, 10:38 PM
New sample in the Ashkenazi lineage J-FGC21085: YF90845, who I believe is someone I invited earlier to upload to YFull. They should form a new subclade called J-Z45813 with my grand uncle's kit (YF83232).

Emre Altug
09-26-2021, 08:21 AM
NEW sample under J-FGC32685

id:YF91085

Country of origin not specified yet.

Please specify, dear uploaders :)

We couldn't be able to see the J-Y24651*, and J-Z387* flags of the last samples. Don't leave us uninformed, thanks :)

Emre Altug
09-29-2021, 03:15 PM
NEW sample under J-Z2148*

id:YF92340

Country of origin not specified yet.

MEurope55
10-04-2021, 07:20 PM
Deleted

Emre Altug
10-14-2021, 02:14 PM
We got one more unknown origin participant under J-Y24651*
id : YF93107

Unfortunately most of the uploads during the recent time didn't specify their country of origin.

leorcooper19
10-14-2021, 02:21 PM
Unfortunately most of the uploads during the recent time didn't specify their country of origin.

Not only that, but if left unpaid, these Nebula kits will eventually disappear from the YTree:
YF87804
YF90191
YF88512
YF88530
YF91085
YF87958

Though I believe any new levels created with these samples will remain, just without the relevant kit.

Emre Altug
10-15-2021, 09:27 AM
Not only that, but if left unpaid, these Nebula kits will eventually disappear from the YTree:
YF87804
YF90191
YF88512
YF88530
YF91085
YF87958

Though I believe any new levels created with these samples will remain, just without the relevant kit.

A bit disappointing however if the branches aren't going to disappear as you mentioned, it's not a big deal. Coincidentally they are the ones without the Flags. Only the S11348 American is known.

I told this 100000 times, and i'll tell it again :)

I advise YFull and Ftdna team to force the user to specify country of origin but still accept them to keep undercover by hiding the names etc.

If not specified, their data shouldn't be published. I find it extremely selfish. Especially by looking at the Unknown Origins in Ftdna.

Emre Altug
10-17-2021, 07:57 AM
Our very first sample from Slovenia !

J-F801

id : YF93223

I appreciate him for specifying his fatherland at the very beginning :)

Roberto Gomes
10-17-2021, 05:15 PM
Hello everyone. I just received my DNA report and discovered I have Y-DNA J-L70 and 84,4% ancestrality from Portugal. I want to see what this means since it is the first time I am trating with those type of information. My goal is to track if I have any sefaradi jewish ancestral. Thanks for any help in this way.

SUPREEEEEME
10-17-2021, 06:09 PM
Hello everyone. I just received my DNA report and discovered I have Y-DNA J-L70 and 84,4% ancestrality from Portugal. I want to see what this means since it is the first time I am trating with those type of information. My goal is to track if I have any sefaradi jewish ancestral. Thanks for any help in this way.

It is certainly possible that you could be paternally Sephardic Jewish - however, the only real way to confirm this is to take a Y-DNA test (like a Y37) with FamilyTreeDNA and see if you match Sephardic individuals who have already been tested. There are a minimum of 11 Sephardic Jewish lineages in J-L70, with several leads on potential other lines (J-L70 itself is found throughout the Jewish Diaspora).

MEurope55
10-20-2021, 05:01 PM
Do we have any theories as to the origin of J-PH2725? I’ve seen branches in Syria, Kuwait, Slovenia, Portuguese, Talysh Azeris, Italians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Ashkenazim. What an interesting distribution.

SUPREEEEEME
10-20-2021, 06:05 PM
Do we have any theories as to the origin of J-PH2725? I’ve seen branches in Syria, Kuwait, Slovenia, Portuguese, Talysh Azeris, Italians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Ashkenazim. What an interesting distribution.

Unfortunately, much like the rest of J-L70, J-PH2725 is as much a mystery. All of the major branches of J-L70 have very wide ranges of distribution, and only ancient DNA can really clarify things (not only for J-L70 as a whole but also sub-branches). The only thing I am fairly certain of is that the MRCA more than likely lived somewhere in the East Med/Near East region. J-PH2725 currently has a TMRCA of 3400 ybp, with the major powers of this region during this time being the Mycenaeans, Hittites, Egyptians, and Assyrians. It is likely that not only J-PH2725 but all of the major branches of J-L70 (mainly J-CTS3601 and J-Z2177) who have similar TMRCA datings will be spread by one or all of these major powers (due to the large expansion period we see which started in 1400 BCE, I think it's likely a branch such as J-L70 flourished through the trade that was occurring throughout and could have been present in the Levant, Anatolia, Greece as well as Mesopotamia by 1000 BCE).

I had once thought that J-PH2725's MRCA could have lived in Syria, with branches like J-F801 staying present in Syria (and Lebanon, where it is also found) with branches moving east (Kuwait), northeast (Azerbaijan), and west (Anatolia>Balkans) etc... On the other hand, branches like J-Z39057 could have then moved to the southern Levant becoming Jewish. There appears to be a Converso Jewish branch from Italy in J-F801 as well. But this is all based on nothing concrete and is merely a guess that could easily be refuted in the future.

I do hold the opinion that irrespective of where the MRCA for J-PH2725 may have lived in the East Med, that J-Z39057 could reasonably have been present in the Southern Levant during the First Temple Period (due to a TMRCA of 2900 ybp). We'll have to see what developments occur on the branch, and what ancient samples we may find here, and then I may revise this opinion, or not.

MEurope55
10-20-2021, 06:21 PM
Unfortunately, much like the rest of J-L70, J-PH2725 is as much a mystery. All of the major branches of J-L70 have very wide ranges of distribution, and only ancient DNA can really clarify things (not only for J-L70 as a whole but also sub-branches). The only thing I am fairly certain of is that the MRCA more than likely lived somewhere in the East Med/Near East region. J-PH2725 currently has a TMRCA of 3400 ybp, with the major powers of this region during this time being the Mycenaeans, Hittites, Egyptians, and Assyrians. It is likely that not only J-PH2725 but all of the major branches of J-L70 (mainly J-CTS3601 and J-Z2177) who have similar TMRCA datings will be spread by one or all of these major powers (due to the large expansion period we see which started in 1400 BCE, I think it's likely a branch such as J-L70 flourished through the trade that was occurring throughout and could have been present in the Levant, Anatolia, Greece as well as Mesopotamia by 1000 BCE).

I had once thought that J-PH2725's MRCA could have lived in Syria, with branches like J-F801 staying present in Syria (and Lebanon, where it is also found) with branches moving east (Kuwait), northeast (Azerbaijan), and west (Anatolia>Balkans) etc... On the other hand, branches like J-Z39057 could have then moved to the southern Levant becoming Jewish. There appears to be a Converso Jewish branch from Italy in J-F801 as well. But this is all based on nothing concrete and is merely a guess that could easily be refuted in the future.

I do hold the opinion that irrespective of where the MRCA for J-PH2725 may have lived in the East Med, that J-Z39057 could reasonably have been present in the Southern Levant during the First Temple Period (due to a TMRCA of 2900 ybp). We'll have to see what developments occur on the branch, and what ancient samples we may find here, and then I may revise this opinion, or not.


Thanks for the explanation! J-L70 as a whole is such a mystery… I hope that future studies help us to better understand the origin within the East Med. It seems logical that the Jewish J-L70 branches would originate in the Southern Levant, do we have any evidence to back this up? I know that J-P244.2 is found in some Kohanim. The Italian converso branch under PH2725 is interesting, I wonder if J-PH2725 could have come from the Levant > Italy > Ashkenaz?

SUPREEEEEME
10-20-2021, 06:39 PM
Thanks for the explanation! J-L70 as a whole is such a mystery… I hope that future studies help us to better understand the origin within the East Med. It seems logical that the Jewish J-L70 branches would originate in the Southern Levant, do we have any evidence to back this up? I know that J-P244.2 is found in some Kohanim. The Italian converso branch under PH2725 is interesting, I wonder if J-PH2725 could have come from the Levant > Italy > Ashkenaz?

Unfortunately, all we have in J-Z39057 is a standard Jewish line and a young Isles line that I believe is of ultimate Jewish origins (but only connects to the Jewish branch at 2900 ybp) - which isn't much to go off of. Unfortunately no one else - but given its "isolation" at 2900 ybp, I don't believe that J-Z39057's MRCA living in the Levant is highly impossible - I think it could reasonably be First Temple Period Israelite - but ultimately just a hypothesis. The branch could have arrived in the Southern Levant later, assuming the MRCA wasn't from there. Fingers crossed we get another modern individual close by, or an ancient sample at the root! The sibling branch, J-F801, doesn't help in that it's fairly ambiguous in distribution. While there are some Cohanim, there are not nearly as many as typical Cohanim lines like J-Y3088 and J-FGC4942. When we did a tally, J-Z39055/J-P244 had roughly the same amount of Cohanim as typically non-Cohanim branches. But of interest, all 3 major branches of J-L70 have some Cohanim in them (the main ones being the Djerban Cohanim in J-M318, however).

Roberto Gomes
10-24-2021, 04:17 AM
Thanks so much for your prompt reply

Emre Altug
10-27-2021, 03:06 PM
J-Z39271 (under M318) has a new participant. Same branch with the Tunisian Djerba Cohanim.
id:YF93526
Let's hope to see the flag. I wonder if he's the Mexican in Ftdna

SUPREEEEEME
10-27-2021, 04:03 PM
J-Z39271 (under M318) has a new participant. Same branch with the Tunisian Djerba Cohanim.
id:YF93526
Let's hope to see the flag. I wonder if he's the Mexican in Ftdna

I don't think it's the Mexican since this individual is from Nebula. But either way, the individual is paternally Jewish, whether they're Jewish today or not.

Emre Altug
10-28-2021, 09:01 AM
J-Z39271 (under M318) has a new participant. Same branch with the Tunisian Djerba Cohanim.
id:YF93526
Let's hope to see the flag. I wonder if he's the Mexican in Ftdna

He's from USA, California

SUPREEEEEME
11-06-2021, 04:12 AM
A new development: the J-Z435- Saudi is J-FT63319. He then forms a deeper clade with the Al-Ma'abdah Al-Qudah Jordanians. Since he doesn't have any STR matches, I imagine this connection is quite old.