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SUPREEEEEME
02-21-2020, 06:58 PM
I have decided to create a thread to post my findings on where J-L70 is found in the MENA region and how many individuals I was able find.

A couple months back I decided to draw up a spreadsheet of J-L70 individuals from manually searching through loads of FamilyTreeDNA projects. From the data, it was most common in Jews, then Italians, then English people - which somewhat matched up with FamilyTreeDNA's Haplotree (minus Jews). Ultimately, I decided against doing anything with this spreadsheet, as I realised the Haplotree should have the exact information - but here we are (I'm only discussing MENA groups - but if anyone wants me to post the whole spreadsheet, just ask). In this spreadsheet, I explicitly acknowledged Jewish descent (Ashkenazi, Sephardi etc...).

I'm not going to post any kit numbers, but I do have them all on the spreadsheet. I explicitly checked that I had no duplicate kit numbers. Unfortunately there were some projects I could not access - oh well...
I'll disclose ethnicity/tribe etc... where possible

DISCLAIMER: If there are any errors, please let me know - and remember - I'm only human :)
Most are subclades under J-L70, where there is uncertainty/doubt, I disclose it.

THIS IS FAMILYTREEDNA ONLY

Iraq:
10 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-CTS3601 (Kurdish)
1 x J-CTS3601 (Arab)
1 x J-FGC24630
2 x J-CTS6061

Lebanon
5 x J-CTS3601

Saudi Arabia
1 x J-L70
1 x J-PH2838
1 x J-CTS3601

Jordan
1 x J-CTS3601

Syria
1 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-L70 (Alawite)
1 x J-FGC24630
1 x J-Y128867
1 x J-L70

Azerbaijan
1 x J-PH2725 (Saltak tribe)
1 x J-PH2725
1 x J-Z2177

Turkey
2 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC24630
1 x J-Z40004
1 x J-FT133466
2 x J-Z2177
1 x J-M137

Armenia
4 x J-L70
1 x J-PF5456
1 x J-Z435

Algeria
1 x J-CTS3601

Palestinian Territories
1 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-Z435

Egypt
1 x J-CTS3601

Turkmenistan
2 x J-L70
2 x J-L1021

Georgia
1 x CTS3601

Iran
1 x J-Z2177

Jews
*Important to note: mostly name/surname based. Many "Sephardic" surnames were googled for confirmation (if that means anything). If they were on a JewishDNA project (I'll specify), I assumed they were of Jewish origin (whether that's right or wrong). Assume Ashkenazi unless told otherwise.

Romania
1 x J-P244

Poland
1 x J-Z45813
5 x J-PF5456
1 x J-Z39496
5 x J-P244
1 x J-BY37767
2 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC6734
1 x J-L398
1 x J-L396

Ukraine
2 x J-BY268
3 x J-PF5456
6 x J-L70
1 x J-BY242
3 x J-P244
1 x J-Z435

Russia
2 x J-L70
1 x J-BY268
1 x J-PF5456

Lithuania
2 x J-PF5456
1 x J-BY268

Belarus
1 x J-PF5456
2 x J-BY268

Germany
1 x J-BY268
1 x J-PF5456
1 x J-BY96345 (on Sephardic group)
3 x J-L70
1 x J-Z40776

Austria
1 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC21083

Czech Republic
1 x J-BY268

Hungary
1 x J-L70

Dominican Republic
1 x J-PH2725 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Spain
2 x J-PF5456 (Found on JewishDNA project)
2 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic)
2 x J-L70 (Sephardic surname)

Italy
1 x J-FGC24630 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-Z2177 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-BY76232 (Jewish origin)
2 x J-L70 (Jewish origin)
2 x J-PH185 (Jewish origin)

Greece
1 x J-L70 (Romaniote)

Puerto Rico
2 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic)
2 x J-PF5456 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Portugal
1 x J-FGC6735 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-L70 (Sephardic)
2 x J-L70 (Sephardic surname)
1 x J-BY71859 (Sephardic surname)

Scotland
1 x J-Z40772 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Denmark
1 x J-L70 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Mexico
1 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic surname)
1 x J-S11348 (Jewish surname)

Wales
1 x J-L70 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Colombia
1 x J-FGC52118 (Sephardic surname)

Unknown
1 x J-Z2177 (Found on JewishDNA project)
5 x J-L70 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-L396 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-Z39055 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-BY268 (Ashkenazi)


While I'm here, I thought I may as well post all the frequencies of J-L70 that I have found from studies:
- Var (which is Eastern Provence): 7.8%
- Phokaia: 6.5%
- Central Anatolia: 5.5%
(https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69)

- Trapani: 9.09%
- Mazara del Vallo: 11.11%
- Alcamo: 8.33%
- Troina: 10%
- Ragusa: 3.57%
(https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008120)

- Crete: 3.8%
- Central Anatolia: 7.6%
- Southern Anatolia: 7.6%
(https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x?referrer_access_token=eQljOauKTU FmFPiAZJwLwIta6bR2k8jH0KrdpFOxC64XmhreEqal5SNCtKh9-BW7d7krq78hsuG77T1_s9u_kL6r_juJS3cU3X2r9FIGWhpLMGs wYsXNQ_UHZ_9dfBqsUlcGortc7eVSBgkWO7Xw_nz7Q-hsaGbYAlAjg-NPR7Y%3D)

- Cyprus: 4.9%
(https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8)

So yeah...

LTG
02-21-2020, 08:35 PM
Good work - I have been wanting to find out more about J-L70 for a while now as this is my own Y-DNA. You should probably remove any speculative labels around these samples until we know their ethnic origin for certain.

I would also appreciate it if you posted the full spreadsheet that includes data about the frequency of this lineage within Europe.

SUPREEEEEME
02-22-2020, 07:01 AM
Here's the spreadsheet:
https://www90.zippyshare.com/v/g7zrl9rF/file.html

Those interested may also find this of interest:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1XMZkpib63UEQMfyOLuiGo0wkO_E&vps=2&ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&ll=37.83926334953876%2C12.282155109907535&z=4

Here is the Yfull:
https://yfull.com/tree/J-L70/

Emre Altug
03-04-2020, 07:45 PM
Hello, i am following this thread. I am J-M172 from Turkey, originating in Sivas. I seem to be L70. Nevgen predicts me as Z2177, while J2 admins predict me as PF5456. My matches are all PF5456. By the way, i looked at your spreadsheet. The 4 Turkmenistan samples are from the same guy, who is Persian. Check the kit names his ancestor name is H.Z. He stated his grandfather was Persian origin. It also seems that L70 Saltak Azerbaijanis are Talysh(Persian). I have an Azerbaijani Talysh match.
Do you think L70 was of Israelite origin ? It may be, but my guess was it is West Anatolian Greek marker. L70 was found in Magna Graecia where Greeks colonized. It is hard to guess now, what it is, without ancient samples. But it seems to have an origin in the Med/Levant.

J Man
03-04-2020, 09:31 PM
Hello, i am following this thread. I am J-M172 from Turkey, originating in Sivas. I seem to be L70. Nevgen predicts me as Z2177, while J2 admins predict me as PF5456. My matches are all PF5456. By the way, i looked at your spreadsheet. The 4 Turkmenistan samples are from the same guy, who is Persian. Check the kit names his ancestor name is H.Z. He stated his grandfather was Persian origin. It also seems that L70 Saltak Azerbaijanis are Talysh(Persian). I have an Azerbaijani Talysh match.
Do you think L70 was of Israelite origin ? It may be, but my guess was it is West Anatolian Greek marker. L70 was found in Magna Graecia where Greeks colonized. It is hard to guess now, what it is, without ancient samples. But it seems to have an origin in the Med/Levant.

L70 is older than both the Israelites or Greeks. It is spread out into many different ethnic groups.

SUPREEEEEME
03-05-2020, 04:28 AM
Hello, i am following this thread. I am J-M172 from Turkey, originating in Sivas. I seem to be L70. Nevgen predicts me as Z2177, while J2 admins predict me as PF5456. My matches are all PF5456. By the way, i looked at your spreadsheet. The 4 Turkmenistan samples are from the same guy, who is Persian. Check the kit names his ancestor name is H.Z. He stated his grandfather was Persian origin. It also seems that L70 Saltak Azerbaijanis are Talysh(Persian). I have an Azerbaijani Talysh match.
Do you think L70 was of Israelite origin ? It may be, but my guess was it is West Anatolian Greek marker. L70 was found in Magna Graecia where Greeks colonized. It is hard to guess now, what it is, without ancient samples. But it seems to have an origin in the Med/Levant.

I have another thread on Jews and J-L70 which, in my opinion, can suggest that J-L70 was present in the Levant during the time period of the Israelites:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18818-Jews-and-J-L70

One of the interesting things about J-L70 is that it appears to be significantly more common in Italy than Greece (at least from what I've seen on FTDNA). Within Italy itself (particularly Sicily), J-L70 is far more common on the West Coast of Sicily while being relatively rare in inland Sicily and on the East coast of Sicily.

LTG
03-05-2020, 12:29 PM
I'm going to need to invest in a real Y-DNA test because all I have at the moment is a prediction that cannot be completely trusted. The information I have of my specific subclade so far doesn't really point towards it being of Jewish or Levantine origin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

"Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature. We resolved the J2a-L397 clade to an unprecedented precision, with three internal markers which allow a finer discrimination than STRs. The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions, with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus and Crete. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test.

In Italy all three variants were found mainly along the Western coast (18/25), which hosted the preferred Greek trade cities. The finding of all three differentiated lineages in Locri excludes a local founder effect of a single genealogy. Interestingly, an important Greek colony was established in this location, with continuity of human settlement until modern times. The sample composed of the same subjects displayed genetic affinities with Eastern Greece and the Aegean also at autosomal markers. In summary, the distributions of branches 57–59 mirror the variety of the cities of origin and geographic ranges during the phases of the colonization process. Molecular signs of the Greek expansion are even more subtle. A peculiarity of our Greek markers is that they relate more to the Aegean and are poorly represented in mainland Greece. This is line with the archeologically documented two step process of establishment of Aegean colonies and subsequent outward colonizations. It is possible that the markers arose in Greek Anatolia."

36650

SUPREEEEEME
03-05-2020, 01:23 PM
I'm going to need to invest in a real Y-DNA test because all I have at the moment is a prediction that cannot be completely trusted. The information I have of my specific subclade so far doesn't really point towards it being of Jewish or Levantine origin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

"Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature. We resolved the J2a-L397 clade to an unprecedented precision, with three internal markers which allow a finer discrimination than STRs. The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions, with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus and Crete. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test.

In Italy all three variants were found mainly along the Western coast (18/25), which hosted the preferred Greek trade cities. The finding of all three differentiated lineages in Locri excludes a local founder effect of a single genealogy. Interestingly, an important Greek colony was established in this location, with continuity of human settlement until modern times. The sample composed of the same subjects displayed genetic affinities with Eastern Greece and the Aegean also at autosomal markers. In summary, the distributions of branches 57–59 mirror the variety of the cities of origin and geographic ranges during the phases of the colonization process. Molecular signs of the Greek expansion are even more subtle. A peculiarity of our Greek markers is that they relate more to the Aegean and are poorly represented in mainland Greece. This is line with the archeologically documented two step process of establishment of Aegean colonies and subsequent outward colonizations. It is possible that the markers arose in Greek Anatolia."

36650

I think at the moment, an Anatolian origin is likely?

J.delajara
03-05-2020, 05:28 PM
Hello, i am following this thread. I am J-M172 from Turkey, originating in Sivas. I seem to be L70. Nevgen predicts me as Z2177, while J2 admins predict me as PF5456. My matches are all PF5456. By the way, i looked at your spreadsheet. The 4 Turkmenistan samples are from the same guy, who is Persian. Check the kit names his ancestor name is H.Z. He stated his grandfather was Persian origin. It also seems that L70 Saltak Azerbaijanis are Talysh(Persian). I have an Azerbaijani Talysh match.
Do you think L70 was of Israelite origin ? It may be, but my guess was it is West Anatolian Greek marker. L70 was found in Magna Graecia where Greeks colonized. It is hard to guess now, what it is, without ancient samples. But it seems to have an origin in the Med/Levant.

Interesting information Emre. Sivas was an important greco-roman settlement, specially after Pompeo Magno's reorganization of Asia Minor. It's interesting if you link this information, with the study posted by LTG. Regards

Emre Altug
03-05-2020, 06:13 PM
Interesting information Emre. Sivas was an important greco-roman settlement, specially after Pompeo Magno's reorganization of Asia Minor. It's interesting if you link this information, with the study posted by LTG. Regards
Thanks for the info, you know my hometown better than me. I will buy a SNP Pack as soon as DNA day discounts start.

Ilgar
03-08-2020, 07:59 AM
Waiting for Big-Y J-L70 Azerbaijani Turk from Georgia. Morley predictor says it is J-L70

StillWater
03-08-2020, 08:12 AM
There is a J-PF5456 from Tunisia - don't know if Jewish or Muslim.

SUPREEEEEME
03-08-2020, 08:33 AM
There is a J-PF5456 from Tunisia - don't know if Jewish or Muslim.

From where (as in database)?

StillWater
03-08-2020, 08:56 AM
From where (as in database)?

FTDNA Haplotree

SUPREEEEEME
03-08-2020, 09:28 AM
FTDNA Haplotree

Interesting - it must be a new addition. It could be either-or.

SUPREEEEEME
03-21-2020, 05:13 PM
Update: Thanks to the work of StillWater, we now know that J-L70 is present in Mountain Jews.

SUPREEEEEME
03-23-2020, 11:02 AM
36650

Looking back at this image, it's actually very interesting - and we can perhaps make some observations from it.

Firstly, of all the regions tested, Italy had the most J2a-L397 - 24. Interestingly, this is roughly on par with J1, J-M67, and J-M92 and J-L26(xM67) is significantly more frequent.

Within the "Rest of Europe", it's interesting to note that they reported J1 as being 7 times more common than J-L397, with J-L397, J2a(xL26) and J-M92 being the lowest.

Within Crete, J-L397 appears not to have been found (although we do know there is a presence there)

Within the "Middle East and Arabia", I find it interesting how after J1 and J-L26(xM67), J-L397 and J2b-M12 are the next most common, being twice as common as J-M67(xM92).

Within Turkey, we observe that J1, J-L26(xM67), and J-M67(xM92) are all more common than J-L397.

Within Greece, J-L26(xM67), J-M67(xM92), and J2b are all more common than J-L397.

Within Sardinia, J-L397 appears to be significantly less frequent than all the sub-haplogroups tested.

LTG
03-23-2020, 06:43 PM
Within the "Rest of Europe", it's interesting to note that they reported J1 as being 7 times more common than J-L397, with J-L397, J2a(xL26) and J-M92 being the lowest.

I think this may have something do with the long-standing Jewish communities across Europe. Those that converted to Christianity may have been responsible for the spread of J1 into non-Mediterranean areas of the continent i.e., Germany, England, Poland and Russia. The "Rest of Europe" in the case of J-L397 applies to France.


Within Crete, J-L397 appears not to have been found (although we do know there is a presence there)

It was found in Crete but for some reason they didn't include it in the table that I posted. Here is what is said in the study:

The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions, with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus and Crete. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test.


Within the "Middle East and Arabia", I find it interesting how after J1 and J-L26(xM67), J-L397 and J2b-M12 are the next most common, being twice as common as J-M67(xM92).

Within Turkey, we observe that J1, J-L26(xM67), and J-M67(xM92) are all more common than J-L397.

Within Greece, J-L26(xM67), J-M67(xM92), and J2b are all more common than J-L397.

Do not forget to take into account total tested population sizes for each of the clades. If you look at it from a relative perspective then J-L397 is actually more common in Greece and Turkey then the other lineages. I do believe there is something to the "Anatolian Greek" theory of the authors but i'm going to need to delve deeper because i'm not really satisfied with the undetailed MorleyDNA prediction.

SUPREEEEEME
03-25-2020, 10:05 AM
I have decided to create a thread to post my findings on where J-L70 is found in the MENA region and how many individuals I was able find.

A couple months back I decided to draw up a spreadsheet of J-L70 individuals from manually searching through loads of FamilyTreeDNA projects. From the data, it was most common in Jews, then Italians, then English people - which somewhat matched up with FamilyTreeDNA's Haplotree (minus Jews). Ultimately, I decided against doing anything with this spreadsheet, as I realised the Haplotree should have the exact information - but here we are (I'm only discussing MENA groups - but if anyone wants me to post the whole spreadsheet, just ask). In this spreadsheet, I explicitly acknowledged Jewish descent (Ashkenazi, Sephardi etc...).

I'm not going to post any kit numbers, but I do have them all on the spreadsheet. I explicitly checked that I had no duplicate kit numbers. Unfortunately there were some projects I could not access - oh well...
I'll disclose ethnicity/tribe etc... where possible

DISCLAIMER: If there are any errors, please let me know - and remember - I'm only human :)
Most are subclades under J-L70, where there is uncertainty/doubt, I disclose it.

THIS IS FAMILYTREEDNA ONLY

Iraq:
10 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-CTS3601 (Kurdish)
1 x J-CTS3601 (Arab)
1 x J-FGC24630
2 x J-CTS6061

Lebanon
5 x J-CTS3601

Saudi Arabia
1 x J-L70
1 x J-PH2838
1 x J-CTS3601

Jordan
1 x J-CTS3601

Syria
1 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-L70 (Alawite)
1 x J-FGC24630
1 x J-Y128867
1 x J-L70

Azerbaijan
1 x J-PH2725 (Saltak tribe)
1 x J-PH2725
1 x J-Z2177

Turkey
2 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC24630
1 x J-Z40004
1 x J-FT133466
2 x J-Z2177
1 x J-M137

Armenia
4 x J-L70
1 x J-PF5456
1 x J-Z435

Algeria
1 x J-CTS3601

Palestinian Territories
1 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-Z435

Egypt
1 x J-CTS3601

Turkmenistan
2 x J-L70
2 x J-L1021

Georgia
1 x CTS3601

Iran
1 x J-Z2177

Jews
*Important to note: mostly name/surname based. Many "Sephardic" surnames were googled for confirmation (if that means anything). If they were on a JewishDNA project (I'll specify), I assumed they were of Jewish origin (whether that's right or wrong). Assume Ashkenazi unless told otherwise.

Romania
1 x J-P244

Poland
1 x J-Z45813
5 x J-PF5456
1 x J-Z39496
5 x J-P244
1 x J-BY37767
2 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC6734
1 x J-L398
1 x J-L396

Ukraine
2 x J-BY268
3 x J-PF5456
6 x J-L70
1 x J-BY242
3 x J-P244
1 x J-Z435

Russia
2 x J-L70
1 x J-BY268
1 x J-PF5456

Lithuania
2 x J-PF5456
1 x J-BY268

Belarus
1 x J-PF5456
2 x J-BY268

Germany
1 x J-BY268
1 x J-PF5456
1 x J-BY96345 (on Sephardic group)
3 x J-L70
1 x J-Z40776

Austria
1 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC21083

Czech Republic
1 x J-BY268

Hungary
1 x J-L70

Dominican Republic
1 x J-PH2725 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Spain
2 x J-PF5456 (Found on JewishDNA project)
2 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic)
2 x J-L70 (Sephardic surname)

Italy
1 x J-FGC24630 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-Z2177 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-BY76232 (Jewish origin)
2 x J-L70 (Jewish origin)
2 x J-PH185 (Jewish origin)

Greece
1 x J-L70 (Romaniote)

Puerto Rico
2 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic)
2 x J-PF5456 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Portugal
1 x J-FGC6735 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-L70 (Sephardic)
2 x J-L70 (Sephardic surname)
1 x J-BY71859 (Sephardic surname)

Scotland
1 x J-Z40772 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Denmark
1 x J-L70 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Mexico
1 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic surname)
1 x J-S11348 (Jewish surname)

Wales
1 x J-L70 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Colombia
1 x J-FGC52118 (Sephardic surname)

Unknown
1 x J-Z2177 (Found on JewishDNA project)
5 x J-L70 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-L396 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-Z39055 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-BY268 (Ashkenazi)


While I'm here, I thought I may as well post all the frequencies of J-L70 that I have found from studies:
- Var (which is Eastern Provence): 7.8%
- Phokaia: 6.5%
- Central Anatolia: 5.5%
(https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69)

- Trapani: 9.09%
- Mazara del Vallo: 11.11%
- Alcamo: 8.33%
- Troina: 10%
- Ragusa: 3.57%
(https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008120)

- Crete: 3.8%
- Central Anatolia: 7.6%
- Southern Anatolia: 7.6%
(https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x?referrer_access_token=eQljOauKTU FmFPiAZJwLwIta6bR2k8jH0KrdpFOxC64XmhreEqal5SNCtKh9-BW7d7krq78hsuG77T1_s9u_kL6r_juJS3cU3X2r9FIGWhpLMGs wYsXNQ_UHZ_9dfBqsUlcGortc7eVSBgkWO7Xw_nz7Q-hsaGbYAlAjg-NPR7Y%3D)

- Cyprus: 4.9%
(https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8)

So yeah...

I've found a few extra people to add - but can't seem to edit the post, so here they are:

Iraq
1 x J-Z435

Jordan
2 x J-Z435

Saudi Arabia
1 x J-PH185

I haven't added them to the spreadsheet, but I got them from this project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-CTS1192?iframe=yresults

Some general notes on things I've found out:
- All the Jordanian individuals are from the Aljoun province
- The Iraqi individual above is from Basra. 'Al-Tamimia'. Not sure if he's related to Banu Tamim:

Banū Tamīm (Arabic: بَنُو تَمِيم‎) or Banī Tamīm (Arabic: بَنِي تَمِيم‎) is one of the tribes of Arabia, mainly present in Saudi Arabia, With a strong presence attested in Algeria[2][3], in Palestine, in Tunisia, and to a lesser extent in Libya following the Aghlabid dynasty[2]. Today, the word Tamim in Arabic means strong and solid.[4][5] It can also mean perfect.[6]
Banu Tamim are an Adnanite tribe, which means they claim descent from the Ishmael of the Quran through Adnan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Tamim

- From my first post, two Syrians and one Iraqi are Bani Sakhr (بني صخر):
Beni Sakhr is the name of a large Bedouin tribe living in Jordan. The Bani Sakhr migrated to central Jordan from the Hijaz in the late eighteenth century.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bani_Sakher

- The Kurdish individual we have is from the Talabani clan (عشيرة الطالباني) and is from Kirkuk.
- The Iraqi Arab we have is Kinani - so I assume he's from Banu Kinanah (بنو كنانة):

The Banu Kinanah (Arabic: بنو كنانة‎, romanized: Banū Kināna) or Bani Kināna are the largest Mudhari Adnanite tribe in the Hejaz and Tihama regions of western Saudi Arabia. Their original territory was located near the city of Mecca.[1] A number of modern-day tribes throughout the Arab world trace their lineage to the Banu Kinanah.[2]
The tribe traces its ancestry to Ishmael, who married a woman of the Arab Jurhum tribe and settled in the vicinity of Mecca according to Islamic tradition.[3][4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Kinanah

- Assuming I've translated correctly, the Egyptian individual is from the Sinai.

According to this project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/G2c/default.aspx?section=yresults

We can add the following:

Lebanon
1 x J-M318 (Jbeil, Byblos)
1 x J-M318 (Bkassine, South Lebanon)

SUPREEEEEME
04-03-2020, 04:38 PM
Some more frequencies based on this paper:
https://www.academia.edu/30091350/Y-chromosomal_evidence_of_the_cultural_diffusion_of_ agriculture_in_southeast_Europe

Greeks 1.1%
Macedonian-Greeks 1.8%
Bosnia-Serbs 2.5%
Bosnia-Croats 1.1%
Croats 1.1%
North-East-Italians 3%
Ukrainians 1.1%
Georgians 1.5%

From this study:
https://www.academia.edu/24625510/Differential_Y-chromosome_Anatolian_Influences_on_the_Greek_and_C retan_Neolithic
Nea Nikomedeia 1.8%
Sesklo and Dimini 3.5%
Lerna and Franchthi Cave 1.8%
Crete 2.6%

SUPREEEEEME
04-04-2020, 10:19 AM
Some more individuals:

Lebanon
2 x J-CTS3601 (but negative for J-PF5456)

Iraq
2 x J-CTS3601 (including another Kurdish individual)

Bahrain
1 x J-CTS3601

Unknown
1 x J-CTS3601 (Category:"Sham")
3 x J-CTS3601 (Category:"Kenana + Bani Sakher + Abbasid")

From this project:https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/wayeel/about/background

This basically brings our J-L70 total to:
Iraq: 18
Lebanon: 9
Saudi Arabia: 4
Jordan: 3
Syria: 5
Azerbaijan: 3
Turkey: 8
Armenia: 6
Algeria: 1
Palestinian: 2
Egypt: 1
Turkmenistan: 4
Georgia: 1
Iran: 1
Bahrain: 1
Unknown Middle Eastern origin: 4
Jews: 95

SUPREEEEEME
04-04-2020, 10:28 AM
Somehow missed the rest of the frequencies from this study:
https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69

I'll just post the new ones with the old ones:
Phokaia 6.5%
Smyrna 1.7%
Nea Nikomedeia 1.8%
Sesklo/Dimini 3.5%
Lerna/Franchthi Cave 1.8%
Northwest Anatolia (Istanbul) 1.9%
Mediterranean Anatolia (South-East Anatolian Coast) 12.1% -- the highest we have so far
Central Anatolia 5.6%
Western Anatolia 0%
Provence 7.8%

Ilgar
04-26-2020, 01:03 PM
We have new big y J-Z44439 Azerbaijani from Georgia and most probably had Anatolian ancestors.

J.delajara
04-26-2020, 02:30 PM
We have new big y J-Z44439 Azerbaijani from Georgia and most probably had Anatolian ancestors.

Thanks for the interesting information. On yFull J-Z44439 cluster, is formed by two germans and one Swiss.

Ilgar
04-26-2020, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the interesting information. On yFull J-Z44439 cluster, is formed by two germans and one Swiss.

I asked him to upload at least his VCF to yfull so we will see what happens

SUPREEEEEME
04-27-2020, 05:49 AM
Forgot to add: we've found Moroccan Jews with J-L70

SUPREEEEEME
05-13-2020, 08:25 AM
UPDATE:
I got someone who is half Tunisian Jewish-half Bukharan Jewish to search his DNA matches, this is what we found:
- 38 Bukharan Jewish J-L70s
- 8 Tunisian Jewish J-L70s
- 2 Algerian Jewish J-L70s (siblings)

This confirms J-L70s presence in Algerian Jews

SUPREEEEEME
05-15-2020, 01:11 PM
J-L70>J-M318:

Lake Van (Armenians - Eastern Anatolia): 5.83%

https://www.academia.edu/3590606/Neolithic_patrilineal_signals_indicate_that_the_Ar menian_plateau_was_repopulated_by_agriculturalists

SUPREEEEEME
06-07-2020, 03:56 PM
I have confirmed J-L70 individuals from the following families (outside of FamilyTreeDNA):
- Haddad (Palestinian)
- Khoury (Lebanese)
- Rabbat (Lebanese)
- Unis (Lebanese)
- Toumpouris (Cypriot)
- Karem Salem (Levantine)
- Netwalli (Levantine)
- Alaily (Levantine)
- Alshawaa (Levantine)

J.delajara
06-10-2020, 03:09 PM
Thanks Supreeeeme.
It's interesting how the researchers associate J-M318 as one of the Bronze Age Greece Linages, quote ''Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). ''
I Think JL70 was Anatolian in origin, and some of its subclades were part of the Greek world, that expanded, since Bronze age, to the west.

Regards


J-L70>J-M318:

Lake Van (Armenians - Eastern Anatolia): 5.83%

https://www.academia.edu/3590606/Neolithic_patrilineal_signals_indicate_that_the_Ar menian_plateau_was_repopulated_by_agriculturalists

SUPREEEEEME
06-10-2020, 03:49 PM
Thanks Supreeeeme.
It's interesting how the researchers associate J-M318 as one of the Bronze Age Greece Linages, quote ''Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). ''
I Think JL70 was Anatolian in origin, and some of its subclades were part of the Greek world, that expanded, since Bronze age, to the west.

Regards

Reminder that J-M319 and J-M318 are very different. I don't think M318 has a presence in Greece. Based on the study that associated J-L70 with Greek expansion, it's worth noting that they only found J-Z2177 amongst their Greek samples. J-FT1679 is most likely a Levantine branch. J-CTS3601 appears to have originated in the Middle East - I've found a notably larger amount of Iraqi individuals who fall under it, but exactly where it originated is more uncertain.

J.delajara
06-10-2020, 04:45 PM
Thanks for your answer. J-M319 and J-M318 are indeed different. I was only underlining the conclusion made by the authors. Although, as FTDNA shows, many Iraqi samples are J-CTS3601, you find a small presence of it subclades in the Middle East and much more in the Northern Mediterranean. At the time, a lot of this clade in found Southern Italy, specially on the Tyrrenean coasts on ex-greek colonies, such as Locri, as demonstrated on the Finocchio et Al. paper of 2018. From the paper ( Branch 59 is CTS6061)
"Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature. We resolved the J2a-L397 clade to an unprecedented precision, with three internal markers which allow a finer discrimination than STRs. The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions (Fig. 2B), with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus56 and Crete43. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test. In Italy all three variants were found mainly along the Western coast (18/25), which hosted the preferred Greek trade cities. The finding of all three differentiated lineages in Locri excludes a local founder effect of a single genealogy. Interestingly, an important Greek colony was established in this location, with continuity of human settlement until modern times. The sample composed of the same subjects displayed genetic affinities with Eastern Greece and the Aegean also at autosomal markers57. In summary, the distributions of branches 57–59 mirror the variety of the cities of origin and geographic ranges during the phases of the colonization process.
So for me, CTS3601 is much Anatolian Greek, or Anatolian at least, than middle eastern. Let's wait and see what future ancient samples will say. Thanks again
Regards

SUPREEEEEME
06-10-2020, 06:08 PM
Thanks for your answer. J-M319 and J-M318 are indeed different. I was only underlining the conclusion made by the authors. Although, as FTDNA shows, many Iraqi samples are J-CTS3601, you find a small presence of it subclades in the Middle East and much more in the Northern Mediterranean. At the time, a lot of this clade in found Southern Italy, specially on the Tyrrenean coasts on ex-greek colonies, such as Locri, as demonstrated on the Finocchio et Al. paper of 2018. From the paper ( Branch 59 is CTS6061)
"Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature. We resolved the J2a-L397 clade to an unprecedented precision, with three internal markers which allow a finer discrimination than STRs. The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions (Fig. 2B), with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus56 and Crete43. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test. In Italy all three variants were found mainly along the Western coast (18/25), which hosted the preferred Greek trade cities. The finding of all three differentiated lineages in Locri excludes a local founder effect of a single genealogy. Interestingly, an important Greek colony was established in this location, with continuity of human settlement until modern times. The sample composed of the same subjects displayed genetic affinities with Eastern Greece and the Aegean also at autosomal markers57. In summary, the distributions of branches 57–59 mirror the variety of the cities of origin and geographic ranges during the phases of the colonization process.
So for me, CTS3601 is much Anatolian Greek, or Anatolian at least, than middle eastern. Let's wait and see what future ancient samples will say. Thanks again
Regards

I agree that we need more ancient samples. To my knowledge, all the samples from the study you quoted were Z2177 (based off BAM files)

Due to modern testing bias, L70 appears to be more common in Europe, but we are starting to see a shift as the Near East is testing more, we are finding more and more Near Eastern L70s.

At the same time, Greece appears to have a relatively low L70 frequency - around 1.1% as a population. I think some of the Z2177 branches might be Greek (not M318) and could reflect Greek expansion.

L70 and CTS3601 need to have been spread by a successful MLBA Near Eastern culture in order for it to have achieved it's current distribution.

In Sicily, L70 particularly peaks in areas such as Trapani (Phoenician), Mazara Del Vallo (Phoenician), Alcamo (Arabs). In contrast, Sciacca (Greek) had no L70. In Italy, the only frequencies we have so far (broader) are Sicily (4.66%) and Northeast Italy (3%).

J.delajara
06-10-2020, 07:55 PM
Thanks again Supreeeme. Regarding Z2177 probably the Study you mentioned, is The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean'' by R. king in 2011, on the Finocchio paper, ´´A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean'', if you check the supplementary material, you can see that Branch 59, is CTS3601, specifically rs781395358 SNP's [B]CTS6061/PF5453.
Regarding the Di Gaetano paper on Sicily, you can check my view on this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=629168#post629168.
Today, PF5456, a relevant subclade of CTS3601, is one of the most important J2's clades in Italy, with a relevant presence in the south. Another important fact is that the oldest sample we have, until now of course, of a subclade under JL-70 is an Hellenic-roman, found in Rome, in Late Antiquity ( around the V century AD), from the Antonio paper, he is Z40772, under PF5456.
I still think L-70 was Anatolic and CTS3601 it could be Anatolic Greek ( or Pelasgian/Myceanean) that, in the case of PF5456, became Italiota, and expanded in roman times all over the Empire.
I'm sure on the incoming papers we will have further news regarding JL70. Thanks again for the interesting exchange of views. Best Regards

J.delajara
06-11-2020, 03:08 AM
Thanks again Supreeeme. Regarding Z2177 probably the Study you mentioned, is The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean'' by R. king in 2011, on the Finocchio paper, ´´A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean'', if you check the supplementary material, you can see that Branch 59, is CTS3601, specifically rs781395358 SNP's [B]CTS6061/PF5453.
Regarding the Di Gaetano paper on Sicily, you can check my view on this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=629168#post629168.
Today, PF5456, a relevant subclade of CTS3601, is one of the most important J2's clades in Italy, with a relevant presence in the south. Another important fact is that the oldest sample we have, until now of course, of a subclade under JL-70 is an Hellenic-roman, found in Rome, in Late Antiquity ( around the V century AD), from the Antonio paper, he is Z40772, under PF5456.
I still think L-70 was Anatolic and CTS3601 it could be Anatolic Greek ( or Pelasgian/Myceanean) that, in the case of PF5456, became Italiota, and expanded in roman times all over the Empire.
I'm sure on the incoming papers we will have further news regarding JL70. Thanks again for the interesting exchange of views. Best Regards








Adding to my last post, and regarding Sicily, I think the paper published on 2015 by Tofanelli ''The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily'', shows better evidence of the presence of L-70 in that island, showing clearly that the presence of this clade is much higher on the greek part of the island, that is Eastern Sicily, with a 6% of the whole sample, compare to the western side, where L-70 presence is only the 3%. The same paper shows that this clade represents the 9% in central Italy a 4% in Euboea and a 3% in Corinthia.

SUPREEEEEME
06-11-2020, 07:39 AM
Adding to my last post, and regarding Sicily, I think the paper published on 2015 by Tofanelli ''The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily'', shows better evidence of the presence of L-70 in that island, showing clearly that the presence of this clade is much higher on the greek part of the island, that is Eastern Sicily, with a 6% of the whole sample, compare to the western side, where L-70 presence is only the 3%. The same paper shows that this clade represents the 9% in central Italy a 4% in Euboea and a 3% in Corinthia.

Thanks for the info! I haven't seen that study before. I'll definitely add the %'s in a separate post.


Thanks again Supreeeme. Regarding Z2177 probably the Study you mentioned, is The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean'' by R. king in 2011, on the Finocchio paper, ´´A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean'', if you check the supplementary material, you can see that Branch 59, is CTS3601, specifically rs781395358 SNP's [B]CTS6061/PF5453.
Regarding the Di Gaetano paper on Sicily, you can check my view on this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....168#post629168.
Today, PF5456, a relevant subclade of CTS3601, is one of the most important J2's clades in Italy, with a relevant presence in the south. Another important fact is that the oldest sample we have, until now of course, of a subclade under JL-70 is an Hellenic-roman, found in Rome, in Late Antiquity ( around the V century AD), from the Antonio paper, he is Z40772, under PF5456.
I still think L-70 was Anatolic and CTS3601 it could be Anatolic Greek ( or Pelasgian/Myceanean) that, in the case of PF5456, became Italiota, and expanded in roman times all over the Empire.
I'm sure on the incoming papers we will have further news regarding JL70. Thanks again for the interesting exchange of views. Best Regards


So I double-checked, all the Greek samples from the "A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean" paper were Z2177 according to the BAM files (I was told this). With regards to the LA Roman L70 found in the Antonio paper, this unfortunately doesn't tell us much since, as the paper demonstrated, Rome received the large majority of their J lineages from Middle Eastern men during the Imperial Age - which is likely when Rome received their J-L70. I imagine this could be the source for a large portion of Central Italy's L70. I definitely agree that Rome likely spread L70 throughout continental Europe. But, I imagine the South did receive their J-L70 from a combined source (Greeks, Phoenicians, and Jews - Jews did arrive in Italy with the Magna Graecia colonists).

Comparing the study you gave me with the older study examining South Italy, we can get the following intervals:
- West Sicily 2.9% - 5.73%
- East Sicily 3.5% - 6.1%

One of these days I'll put together a distribution map.

SUPREEEEEME
06-11-2020, 07:52 AM
- East Sicily(Augusta, Lentini, S.Croce Camerina, Siracuse) 6.1%
- West Sicily(Caccamo, Castellammare del Golfo, Trapani) 2.9%
- South Italy(Belvedere Marittimo, Benevento, Lecce) 3.4%
- Ionian Italy(Catanzaro, Cosenza, Matera) 4.8%
- North Italy(La Spezia, Udine) 1.1%
- Central Italy(Ascoli Piceno, Latina) 9.1%
- Corinthia 2.9%
- Turkey 4.5%
- Albania 2.2%
- Croatia 0%
- Euboea 4.3%

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124#Sec18

J.delajara
06-11-2020, 07:56 PM
- East Sicily(Augusta, Lentini, S.Croce Camerina, Siracuse) 6.1%
- West Sicily(Caccamo, Castellammare del Golfo, Trapani) 2.9%
- South Italy(Belvedere Marittimo, Benevento, Lecce) 3.4%
- Ionian Italy(Catanzaro, Cosenza, Matera) 4.8%
- North Italy(La Spezia, Udine) 1.1%
- Central Italy(Ascoli Piceno, Latina) 9.1%
- Corinthia 2.9%
- Turkey 4.5%
- Albania 2.2%
- Croatia 0%
- Euboea 4.3%

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124#Sec18

Thanks again Supreeeeme, let's wait for more Ancient Samples, and we will have further confirmations.
Regards

J.delajara
06-12-2020, 03:12 PM
Thanks for the info! I haven't seen that study before. I'll definitely add the %'s in a separate post.




So I double-checked, all the Greek samples from the "A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean" paper were Z2177 according to the BAM files (I was told this). With regards to the LA Roman L70 found in the Antonio paper, this unfortunately doesn't tell us much since, as the paper demonstrated, Rome received the large majority of their J lineages from Middle Eastern men during the Imperial Age - which is likely when Rome received their J-L70. I imagine this could be the source for a large portion of Central Italy's L70. I definitely agree that Rome likely spread L70 throughout continental Europe. But, I imagine the South did receive their J-L70 from a combined source (Greeks, Phoenicians, and Jews - Jews did arrive in Italy with the Magna Graecia colonists).

Comparing the study you gave me with the older study examining South Italy, we can get the following intervals:
- West Sicily 2.9% - 5.73%
- East Sicily 3.5% - 6.1%

One of these days I'll put together a distribution map.

Supreeeme, I also checked again the Study, ''A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean", although I haven't seen the Bam file, the Paper analyzed three branches under J-L70, branches, branch 57 ( Z2177), branch 58 (rs77512766) & branch 59 (CTS3601), they concluded, by analyzing ancient a derived alleles , regarding the three branches, quote: ''the centroids of carriers of the ancestral allele were located in Greece''. It's interesting to note that Euboea has more than 4% of JL-70, and they were active colonists both, in Anatolia and in the west.
. But as we said, we need to be patient and wait. Have a nice afternoon. Regards

SUPREEEEEME
06-12-2020, 04:47 PM
Supreeeme, I also checked again the Study, ''A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean", although I haven't seen the Bam file, the Paper analyzed three branches under J-L70, branches, branch 57 ( Z2177), branch 58 (rs77512766) & branch 59 (CTS3601), they concluded, by analyzing ancient a derived alleles , regarding the three branches, quote: ''the centroids of carriers of the ancestral allele were located in Greece''. It's interesting to note that Euboea has more than 4% of JL-70, and they were active colonists both, in Anatolia and in the west.
. But as we said, we need to be patient and wait. Have a nice afternoon. Regards

Granted - but all the East Sicilian and Greek L70's were Z2177. I have been informed that one of the L70's from Benevento was CTS3601 as well as one of the Turkish ones.

One thing that has got me stumped, is that L70 exhibits it's highest frequency in Southeast Anatolia (~12.1%)(so far) - it continues exhibiting a higher frequency in Anatolia (South and Central)(~7.6%), but drops substantially in Greece (~1%-4.3%), then spikes again in Western Sicily (~9%-11% - Trapani and Mazara del Vallo)(and to a slightly lesser extent Eastern Sicily, as you have demonstrated) and Central Italy (~9.1%)(as you have also demonstrated).

An interesting sublade, that's for sure.

Emre Altug
06-14-2020, 11:38 AM
Kit number 250601 is from Kazakhstan and he is likely CTS3601. I support the "steppe origin" of this clade. We will see where it belongs together with the new samples.

SUPREEEEEME
06-14-2020, 12:36 PM
Kit number 250601 is from Kazakhstan and he is likely CTS3601. I support the "steppe origin" of this clade. We will see where it belongs together with the new samples.

From my experience, L70 is incredibly rare in the Caucasus and beyond. I'm busy gathering data for a distribution map (to fill in the gaps where we don't have frequencies from papers) and noticed in the DNA projects of the Nakh, Ingush etc... there wasn't any J-L70 amongst thousands of project members.

Emre Altug
06-14-2020, 01:58 PM
From my experience, L70 is incredibly rare in the Caucasus and beyond. I'm busy gathering data for a distribution map (to fill in the gaps where we don't have frequencies from papers) and noticed in the DNA projects of the Nakh, Ingush etc... there wasn't any J-L70 amongst thousands of project members.

Vainakh people are generally under J-CTS6804 which is under M67, and it was probably Anatolian/Hurrian in origin. Just like the G2a in South Caucasians are from Anatolia. But some Karachays, Balkarians, Bashkirs and Tatar groups do have for example J-FGC34168 under Z387. Looks like that clade has steppe origin. The samples from Central Asia, Steppe and surroundings are a bit scarce.

SUPREEEEEME
06-14-2020, 02:19 PM
Vainakh people are generally under J-CTS6804 which is under M67, and it was probably Anatolian/Hurrian in origin. Just like the G2a in South Caucasians are from Anatolia. But some Karachays, Balkarians, Bashkirs and Tatar groups do have for example J-FGC34168 under Z387. Looks like that clade has steppe origin. The samples from Central Asia, Steppe and surroundings are a bit scarce.

I haven't looked into FGC35503 too much - but the trend I've seen is it's one of the more common J2 clades in Arabia particularly, as evidenced by YFull. The J-FGC34168 branch is also shared with Turks/Anatolians - so likely migrated North into Central Asia, Steppe etc.... That combined with the almost blatant absence of L70 in those regions points towards Z387 originating in the Fertile Crescent, and spreading from there (maybe in Eastern Anatolia/Syria?). Keeping in mind, L24 and L25 originated in Iran, with branches such as Z438 and PF4888 migrating west to the Levant (L24 peaks in Iran and the Levant) where their formation possibly occurred.

Principe
06-14-2020, 03:08 PM
When it comes to L70, I think nothing can be definitively concluded, based on its TMRCA and branch formations, the only thing that can be said is that it arose from a powerful MLBA culture.

When it comes to the broader Z387 branch including FGC35503/Y17949, thing to consider is what we see in ancient dna that its brother F3133 was born and diversified in the Iranian Plateau and spread to Central Asia and Eastern Iran early on (of course some branches did and others likely stayed near point of origin Central Iran maybe?), so movements from Iran historically should be considered, imo Z387’s ancestor moved into Western Iran, with Y17949 moving into the Caucasus and L70 either moving into Fertile Crescent or Eastern Turkey. Arguments can be made for both, and either an Assyrian or Hittite origin for L70 can work, both were extremely mobile civilizations during this time period.

SUPREEEEEME
06-18-2020, 04:09 PM
Frequency map of J-L70

38064

Based off figures from studies and FamilyTreeDNA regional groups.

Data not from the studies found in this thread:
Abruzzo, Lazio, Molise - 3/222 = 1.35%
Azerbaijan - 4/518 = 0.77%
Bulgaria - 7/953 = 0.73%
Galicia - 1/777 = 0.13%
Used this figure as an Iberian proxy as L70's presence in Spain appears relatively constant, but many of the Iberian L70s are Sephardic - I imagine Portugal has a slightly higher frequency.
Armenia - 6/1071 = 0.56%
Jordan - 1/21 = 4.76%
Iraq - 18/2087 = 0.82%
Syria - 5/147 = 3.4%
Algeria - 1/251 = 0.4%
Egypt - 1/248 = 0.4%
I used Algeria and Egypt as North African proxies. L70 does have a presence in all North African countries, but was unable to find actual %'s using FTDNA. I imagine the coasts of Tunisia might display a slightly higher frequency.
Lebanon - 9/254 = 3.54%
Georgia - 3/659 = 0.46%
For Israel, used Libyan Jews as a proxy - who have L70 at a frequency of 5%.
Kuwait - 1/428 = 0.23%

Figures not used:
Italy - 17/2129 = 0.8%
North Italy - 1/737 = 0.14%

Other figures from studies:
Lecce 3.4%
Ionian Italy 4.8%
South Italy 3.4%
Latina 9.1%
Cyprus 4.9%
Crete 3.2%
Euboea 4.3%
Trapani 9.09%
Mazara del Vallo 11.11%
Ragusa 3.57%
Syracuse 6.1%
Alcamo 8.33%
Troina 8.33%
West Sicily 4.32% (average of 2 studies)
North Italy 1.1%
Ascoli Piceno 9.1%
Corinthia 2.9%
Sesklo and Dimini 3.5%
Greece 1.1%
Var 7.8%
Albania 2.2%
Macedonia 1.1%
Istanbul 1.9%
Southeast Anatolia 12.1%
East Anatolia 5.8%
Southern Anatolia 7.6%
Central Anatolia 6.55% (average of 2 studies)
Phokaia 6.5%
Smyrna 1.7%
Bosnia 1.8%
Croatia 0.55% (average of study and FTDNA)

J.delajara
06-18-2020, 04:45 PM
Thanks a lot Supreeeme, nice work. Just two questions:
Your study considers only L-70 or you also added its clades, under Z435?
Which is your base to put the basal star?, according to the data you used, you should put it on southern Anatolia.
Best Regards

SUPREEEEEME
06-18-2020, 04:48 PM
Thanks a lot Supreeeme, nice work. Just two questions:
Your study considers only L-70 or you also added its clades, under Z435?
Which is your base to put the basal star?, according to the data you used, you should put it on southern Anatolia.
Best Regards

It's just J-L70 - not any downstream clades. The Basal from YFull - the Jordanian J-L70*

J.delajara
06-18-2020, 05:03 PM
Thanks Supreeeme. Regarding the Basal, I think maybe you should take in consideration the study of A. Finocchio that analyses ancient alleles, Yfull is an excellent analysis of actual samples, for example I don´t think Z435 is basal in Northern Ireland, as shown in Yfull, neither PF5456 in Germany.
Regards

leperrine
06-29-2020, 04:46 PM
I'm under J-L70. Specifically I'm J-FT63319. My paternal Ancestors were Huguenots that came to America in 1665. Before that they were Norman nobility. Right now the best theory I have about my specific branch is that it came into Europe with the Alans. Possibly picked up out of the Levant after the Assyrians deported large numbers of Israelite's.

J Man
06-29-2020, 05:18 PM
I'm under J-L70. Specifically I'm J-FT63319. My paternal Ancestors were Huguenots that came to America in 1665. Before that they were Norman nobility. Right now the best theory I have about my specific branch is that it came into Europe with the Alans. Possibly picked up out of the Levant after the Assyrians deported large numbers of Israelite's.

Interesting...Which Norman noble family do you come from? If you do not want to mention it on here that is fine though.

SUPREEEEEME
06-29-2020, 05:37 PM
I'm under J-L70. Specifically I'm J-FT63319. My paternal Ancestors were Huguenots that came to America in 1665. Before that they were Norman nobility. Right now the best theory I have about my specific branch is that it came into Europe with the Alans. Possibly picked up out of the Levant after the Assyrians deported large numbers of Israelite's.

Recently, a Palestinian joined YFull who is a splitter i.e. he will make a new subclade between J-Z387 and J-L70, which points to a Levantine origin for L70 at the moment (so the two basal branches for L70 are only found in Jordan and Gaza). As to how your clade entered Europe will need to be subject to further research. There were several likely movements of L70 into Europe:
- Anatolians (to Greeks)
- Phoenicians
- Jewish diaspora
- Near Easterners during Imperial Rome
- Perhaps some others

The only 'issue' with the Alans, is that L70 doesn't have a large presence (if at all) in modern times where the Alans were situated (i.e. Caucasus/North Caucasus)

leperrine
06-29-2020, 06:18 PM
Another theory is he could be a Judean that converted to Christianity and came to Europe before the destruction of the temple.

leperrine
06-29-2020, 06:22 PM
Interesting...Which Norman noble family do you come from? If you do not want to mention it on here that is fine though.

In the book Daniel Perrin, "The Huguenot," and his descendants in America. written by my relative Howland Perrine. He mentions a connection to Roger de Barneville. A knight who rode with William the Conqueror and help put him on the throne. My family would go on to marry into other prominent Norman families too.
https://archive.org/details/danielperrintheh1910perr
Well, I think I just found the connection!
Jean Perrine married Nicholaa de Sausmarez according to the island wiki site.
Here's the connection:
Hugh Sire of Barneville circa 1033s
Sire Roger de Barneville circa 1098s
William de Barneville circa 1160s
DAUGHTER: Nicolaa de Lucy (de Barneville) circa 1180s
HUSBAND: Maurice de Lucy
Son: Jordan de Lucy de Barneville circa 1209
WIFE: UNKNOWN
DAUGHTER: Alianor de Lucy de Saumarez circa 1225
HUSBAND: Nicholas de Sausmarez
Son: Matthieu de Sausmarez circa 1245
WIFE: Alicia de Sausmarez de St. Remy
DAUGHTER: Nicholaa de Sausmarez cira 1313
HUSBAND: Jean Perrin
SON: Dominique Perrin
Jean Perrin
Guillaue Perrin
Johan Perrin
John Perrin
Dominique Perrin
Edmund Perrin, Seigneur of Rozel
Hugh Perrin
Dominque Perrin
Comte Du Perrin aka Louis Perrin
Pierre Perrin (Count Pierre)
Daniel "The Huguenot" Perrin (Came to America, 1665)
Henry Perrin
John Perrine
Peter Perrine
James Mount Perrine
Isaac H. Perrine
Raymond Ely Perrine (Great Grandfather)
Lyman Perrine (My Grandfather)
Lyman Eric Perrine (My Father)
Lyman Eric Perrine Jr (Me)

leperrine
06-29-2020, 06:27 PM
My Perrin branch likely originated in southern France.

PERRIN, formerly PERIN, PIER-
RIN, or PAIRIN,
Old family of noble race & lineage, established in Caftres, in
Languedoc, and divided into several branches.
Depending on a Memory, or a & Notice sent,
on this old NoblelTe, at the Libraire, &
which was handed to us on the 15th of July, 1775,
........
I. DEODAT OF Perrin, Sieur de la Balme,
who lived in 1 1 16, and fe maria to Huguette
of Beauregard, Lady of Fromentes &
Mirabel. They had other children,........

J.delajara
06-29-2020, 08:14 PM
Recently, a Palestinian joined YFull who is a splitter i.e. he will make a new subclade between J-Z387 and J-L70, which points to a Levantine origin for L70 at the moment (so the two basal branches for L70 are only found in Jordan and Gaza). As to how your clade entered Europe will need to be subject to further research. There were several likely movements of L70 into Europe:
- Anatolians (to Greeks)
- Phoenicians
- Jewish diaspora
- Near Easterners during Imperial Rome
- Perhaps some others

The only 'issue' with the Alans, is that L70 doesn't have a large presence (if at all) in modern times where the Alans were situated (i.e. Caucasus/North Caucasus)

Thanks for the information Supreeeme.
On FTDNA Block tree, regarding L-70 you can see the following branch participants, and their country of origin:
10 Italy
10 England
8 Germany
4 Spain
4 Poland
3 Armenia, France, GB, Portugal
2 Austria, Russia, Ukraine
1 Norway, Wales, Puerto Rico, Jordan, Turkemistan, Malta, Syria, Denmark, Turkey, Saudi Arabia etc.
If we include downstream participants, Italy is the most representative country, with the 13,5% of all followed by Germany and England.

Best regards

SUPREEEEEME
06-30-2020, 09:59 AM
Thanks for the information Supreeeme.
On FTDNA Block tree, regarding L-70 you can see the following branch participants, and their country of origin:
10 Italy
10 England
8 Germany
4 Spain
4 Poland
3 Armenia, France, GB, Portugal
2 Austria, Russia, Ukraine
1 Norway, Wales, Puerto Rico, Jordan, Turkemistan, Malta, Syria, Denmark, Turkey, Saudi Arabia etc.
If we include downstream participants, Italy is the most representative country, with the 13,5% of all followed by Germany and England.

Best regards

Yes - that's due to modern testing bias. Countries like England and Germany have thousands of people tested on FTDNA making their L70 % miniscule. Even when looking at the Italy project, there are some 2100 members on the project and only 17 L70s (granted, there are other Italian L70s not on that project - reason i never used the figure when making the map- and a fair number are of Jewish descent).

J.delajara
06-30-2020, 03:42 PM
Yes - that's due to modern testing bias. Countries like England and Germany have thousands of people tested on FTDNA making their L70 % miniscule. Even when looking at the Italy project, there are some 2100 members on the project and only 17 L70s (granted, there are other Italian L70s not on that project - reason i never used the figure when making the map- and a fair number are of Jewish descent).

Thanks again Supreeeme. I was aware about the numbers, I just wanted to add some further information, as far as I know, most of Yfull tests are also modern samples, unless they specify them as ancient. If you analyze small sample countries, such as Sweden, Norway and Denmark , you can also find L-70, which is quite strange, considering non of them shows eastern or southern origins, at least declared. This could be useful maybe for Mr. Perrine, considering his Norman past. Regarding Italy, most of the clades under L-70 includes people from different backgrounds and religions, including jewish of course, but not by majority.
Further ancient samples will help us.
Best Regards

Emre Altug
07-03-2020, 06:19 PM
Thanks again Supreeeme. I was aware about the numbers, I just wanted to add some further information, as far as I know, most of Yfull tests are also modern samples, unless they specify them as ancient. If you analyze small sample countries, such as Sweden, Norway and Denmark , you can also find L-70, which is quite strange, considering non of them shows eastern or southern origins, at least declared. This could be useful maybe for Mr. Perrine, considering his Norman past. Regarding Italy, most of the clades under L-70 includes people from different backgrounds and religions, including jewish of course, but not by majority.
Further ancient samples will help us.
Best Regards

Yes, indeed i do have a Swedish match and i have viewed his family tree. He is ethnical Swedish for sure. Also there is a Sicilian match who has his origins from France, and ended up in Sicily with Normans. I have also Scottish, British, German, French, North/Central Italian matches, as well as Greek, Zaza, Turk, Armenian and Talysh and a Saudi(who is the only PH84 out of my 14 matches who are almost all under PF5456). When i view the "Alan migrations" map, it shockingly seems very similar to my specific match distribution. I don't know about the other guys who are also L70. I am talking about my specific case. Maybe we are different since L70 is 6800 years old.

J.delajara
07-03-2020, 09:44 PM
Yes, indeed i do have a Swedish match and i have viewed his family tree. He is ethnical Swedish for sure. Also there is a Sicilian match who has his origins from France, and ended up in Sicily with Normans. I have also Scottish, British, German, French, North/Central Italian matches, as well as Greek, Zaza, Turk, Armenian and Talysh and a Saudi(who is the only PH84 out of my 14 matches who are almost all under PF5456). When i view the "Alan migrations" map, it shockingly seems very similar to my specific match distribution. I don't know about the other guys who are also L70. I am talking about my specific case. Maybe we are different since L70 is 6800 years old.

Thanks Emre, L-70 is a very interesting clade. I think it was born in Anatolia, and afterwards spread on different directions. The only chance to have further answers is to wait for new ancient samples. Regarding its clades, Z435 seams to be Greek or Italiota, there are new samples on Yfull under this clade, from Turkey, Greece, Italy and Cyprus. It was surely spread by romans all over Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. Best Regards

08-01-2020, 11:40 AM
Dear Supreme,

Nice to find my Y DNA on your
My haplogroup is J-BY96345 it is a part of the Y-DNA group J-M318.
It is a small group with living descendants in Tunisia (Djerba, Jewish, Separdic Kohanim) Libya, Malta, Italy and a few in Spain, Portugal.
My ancestors migrated - probably via Switzerland - to the North of Gemany and the North of the Netherlands.


Kind regards,

Hans J. Vos.

harrimir
08-01-2020, 11:58 AM
Hans,
I am not sure if you have a specific family history that says your ancestors migrated through Switzerland, which I do not want to dismiss. But, and you might already be aware of this, many Sephardic Jews migrated en masse directly to the Netherlands after 1492. They made up an essential part of Golden Age Dutch society, from Spinoza to the merchants of Dutch South America.
Cheers!

SUPREEEEEME
08-01-2020, 03:11 PM
Dear Supreme,

Nice to find my Y DNA on your
My haplogroup is J-BY96345 it is a part of the Y-DNA group J-M318.
It is a small group with living descendants in Tunisia (Djerba, Jewish, Separdic Kohanim) Libya, Malta, Italy and a few in Spain, Portugal.
My ancestors migrated - probably via Switzerland - to the North of Gemany and the North of the Netherlands.


Kind regards,

Hans J. Vos.

Hi Hans, I've also found J-M318 in several individuals from Lebanon (assuming FTDNA project admins correctly placed them under this group). I've also found that 5% of Armenians around Lake Van (Eastern Anatolia) belong to J-M318.

Emre Altug
09-12-2020, 12:00 PM
New Egyptian under J-2148*. (Analysis in progress)
New Saudi under J-FGC32147 (VCF)

SUPREEEEEME
09-12-2020, 12:13 PM
New Egyptian under J-2148*. (Analysis in progress)
New Saudi under J-FGC32147 (VCF)

It's interesting that the Egyptian is from the Sinai. The Saudi falls under the clade with Bani Sakher Bedouins. Aside from the Syrian on the YFull tree, there is another Syrian and Iraqi there.

SUPREEEEEME
09-12-2020, 03:04 PM
New Egyptian under J-2148*. (Analysis in progress)
New Saudi under J-FGC32147 (VCF)

The Egyptian is quite an interesting case. YFull has him as J-Z2148* - which is below J-Z435. I've found him on FTDNA. They have him as J-PF5430 (i.e. J-Z423 on YFull) which is above J-Z435. He has taken a BigY. Ultimately, his presence further supports a Levantine origin for J-L70.

J.delajara
09-12-2020, 06:12 PM
It's interesting that the Egyptian is from the Sinai. The Saudi falls under the clade with Bani Sakher Bedouins. Aside from the Syrian on the YFull tree, there is another Syrian and Iraqi there.

Hi Supreeme, the Egyptian on FTDNA is under PF5430, as basal with the Palestinian sample , sharing 39 private variants. Another discrepancy between YFULL and FTDNA, they will probably form a new clade somewhere under PF5430 (Z423). Regards

SUPREEEEEME
09-12-2020, 06:32 PM
Hi Supreeme, the Egyptian on FTDNA is under PF5430, as basal with the Palestinian sample , sharing 39 private variants. Another discrepancy between YFULL and FTDNA, they will probably form a new clade somewhere under PF5430 (Z423). Regards

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few days/weeks. Strange that YFull has the individual as below Z435 while FTDNA has him as above Z435.

J.delajara
09-17-2020, 07:53 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few days/weeks. Strange that YFull has the individual as below Z435 while FTDNA has him as above Z435.

Hi Supreeme. On FTDNA the Egyptian and the Palestinian formed a new subclade under PF5430; FT340863.
Best Regards

leorcooper19
09-19-2020, 01:06 AM
Hi Supreeme. On FTDNA the Egyptian and the Palestinian formed a new subclade under PF5430; FT340863.
Best Regards

I saw that as well. The listed average of 12 private variants for J-FT340863 likely indicates a TMRCA of around 950 CE: (12*-83) + 1940 = 944 CE. I'd guess the range on that is likely +/- 300 years, so definitely a more recent connection relative to the age of J-L70. This obvious connections makes you wonder why YFull would initially place the Egyptian multiple levels downstream. Are we sure it's the same Egyptian?

J.delajara
09-19-2020, 01:41 PM
I saw that as well. The listed average of 12 private variants for J-FT340863 likely indicates a TMRCA of around 950 CE: (12*-83) + 1940 = 944 CE. I'd guess the range on that is likely +/- 300 years, so definitely a more recent connection relative to the age of J-L70. This obvious connections makes you wonder why YFull would initially place the Egyptian multiple levels downstream. Are we sure it's the same Egyptian?

Thanks a lot Leorcooper19. I don't know for sure if it's the same Egyptian, the thing is, it was quite a coincidence that both appear as new on FTDNA and Yfull at the same time. On FTDNA there was no Egyptian on this subclade before. Best Regards

SUPREEEEEME
09-19-2020, 03:13 PM
Been a while since I've posted anything new, so here's something:

There's a Saudi who is J-L70, but negative for Z435. Hopefully this individual will take a BigY test and we will be able to see where he fits in.

Additionally, here's a part of J-L70's tree on FTDNA:
39676

What's interesting, is that J-Z39057 is an Ashkenazi branch (with a large Cohen presence - J-PH2725* on YFull). Their sibling clade, J-F801, has a Syrian. What's even more interesting is J-BY57393 (not on YFull). From looking at the tree, there are only 3 individuals on this branch. Two from the British Isles at J-BY125813, and one unknown at J-BY57393. I've found out who this "unknown" individual is and have confirmed that this individual has taken a BigY, meaning they're basal to this clade. This individual hasn't given much information to go off of, except for a family name. This is where this name is most common:

39677

I'd wager this individual is of Levantine roots. There is another individual who has the exact same sequence (but appears to have only taken a Y37) - unfortunately there is once again little information, except for a family name. Unfortunately there's no distribution map for it, but it appears to be of Middle Eastern origin.

With this in mind, J-PH3882 is starting to look Levantine as a whole.

Emre Altug
09-24-2020, 11:49 AM
The Roman Late Antiquity sample R136 is now processing at YFull. He seems to be located under J-BY242* right now. Wasn't BY242 Jewish ?
https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY242*/

SUPREEEEEME
09-24-2020, 12:16 PM
The Roman Late Antiquity sample R136 is now processing at YFull. He seems to be located under J-BY242* right now. Wasn't BY242 Jewish ?
https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY242*/

I originally thought it was Jewish - but it doesn't appear to be. I did mistakenly include the individual on the first post of this thread as Jewish, confusing it with J-BY268. Surname of the individual is Kalinowski. Of course, there's always a chance of the individual being of Jewish origin - but we'll have to wait for more samples to appear on this branch. The R136 sample does plot in the East Mediterranean and appears to have some degree of Levantine ancestry?

J.delajara
09-24-2020, 05:31 PM
I originally thought it was Jewish - but it doesn't appear to be. I did mistakenly include the individual on the first post of this thread as Jewish, confusing it with J-BY268. Surname of the individual is Kalinowski. Of course, there's always a chance of the individual being of Jewish origin - but we'll have to wait for more samples to appear on this branch. The R136 sample does plot in the East Mediterranean and appears to have some degree Levantine ancestry?

Thanks Supreeme. Indeed R136 plot with East Mediterranean, close to Southern Italians and Greek. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf
Best Regards

J.delajara
09-24-2020, 06:03 PM
I originally thought it was Jewish - but it doesn't appear to be. I did mistakenly include the individual on the first post of this thread as Jewish, confusing it with J-BY268. Surname of the individual is Kalinowski. Of course, there's always a chance of the individual being of Jewish origin - but we'll have to wait for more samples to appear on this branch. The R136 sample does plot in the East Mediterranean and appears to have some degree of Levantine ancestry?

Regarding the Kalinowski family in Ukraine, you can see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcin_Kalinowski
Regards

Emre Altug
09-24-2020, 06:08 PM
R1221 is also now processing at YFull. It's under J-FGC32147 which seems to be Arab-dominated.
https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH185/

J.delajara
09-24-2020, 06:28 PM
R1221 is also now processing at YFull. It's under J-FGC32147 which seems to be Arab-dominated.
https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH185/

Thanks Emre, that is very interesting, because R1221 plots between Northern and Central Italians on the Haplotype cluster of the paper, and today is a Bedouin group. Regards

SUPREEEEEME
09-24-2020, 06:52 PM
Thanks Emre, that is very interesting, because R1221 plots between Northern and Central Italians on the Haplotype cluster of the paper, and today is a Bedouin group. Regards

The sample appears autosomally closest to the modern population of Provence. I imagine the lineage arrived a long time before the Renaissance from the Levant with Imperial Romans (the Bani Skhr Bedouins give a hint to where it spread from, with the Bani Skhr tribe having migrated from the Hijaz to Jordan - which would make it likely that they picked up this branch of J-L70 in Jordan - or somewhere else in the Levant).

J.delajara
09-24-2020, 07:01 PM
The sample appears autosomally closest to the modern population of Provence. I imagine the lineage arrived a long time before the Renaissance from the Levant with Imperial Romans (the Bani Skhr Bedouins give a hint to where it spread from, with the Bani Skhr tribe having migrated from the Hijaz to Jordan - which would make it likely that they picked up this branch of J-L70 in Jordan - or somewhere else in the Levant).

Thanks Supreeme, it's interesting to analyze the TMRCA of this subclade on Yfull. Best regards

SUPREEEEEME
10-16-2020, 11:07 AM
New big news:
J-Z387* has been found in a Turkish Jew. This greatly supports that J-Z387 and downstream clades (like J-L70) originated in the Levant. J-Z387, J-L70, and J-FGC35503 all now have Basal lines in the Levant.

Other news:
- Found an Iraqi whose terminal SNP is J-CTS6061 (which, to my understanding is synonymous with J-CTS3601). He has tested negative for J-PF5456 and J-L1021. This means he's either J-Z44439 or Basal. I'd wager Basal, and will likely form a new clade with other Iraqis.
- Also found a J-Z435- Mexican. Surname is Cervantes - which appears to be associated with Sephardic roots.

J.delajara
10-16-2020, 03:31 PM
New big news:
J-Z387* has been found in a Turkish Jew. This greatly supports that J-Z387 and downstream clades (like J-L70) originated in the Levant. J-Z387, J-L70, and J-FGC35503 all now have Basal lines in the Levant.

Other news:
- Found an Iraqi whose terminal SNP is J-CTS6061 (which, to my understanding is synonymous with J-CTS3601). He has tested negative for J-PF5456 and J-L1021. This means he's either J-Z44439 or Basal. I'd wager Basal, and will likely form a new clade with other Iraqis.
- Also found a J-Z435- Mexican. Surname is Cervantes - which appears to be associated with Sephardic roots.

Thanks for the information Supreeme. Just one comment, Cervantes is not a Sephardic surname, It is supposed to be a toponymic surname from Galicia and/or León. As many other surnames, it could have been used by Sephardic, as well, but not only by them. Regards

harrimir
10-16-2020, 03:46 PM
Honestly with how clear it has become that L70 and its downclade branches originated amongst a population ancestral primarily to Jews and bedouin Arabs... It kindof makes me doubt the "greeks brought it to southern italy" idea.

J.delajara
10-16-2020, 04:10 PM
Honestly with how clear it has become that L70 and its downclade branches originated amongst a population ancestral primarily to Jews and bedouin Arabs... It kindof makes me doubt the "greeks brought it to southern italy" idea.

Thanks for your comment Harrimir. You've seen all the arguments we've been discussing this period, and you know my position clearly. For me, and some others, such as Prof. Finocchio and his team, we do think Greek brought this clade to Southern Italy, according to the evidence we have until now, and that of course is not contradictory with the origin of L-70. Although I still think is Anatolic in origin, but as I said on my last posts on other threats, let's wait for further ancient samples to have a clearer picture, and I'm not close of course, to change my view. Regards

Emre Altug
10-27-2020, 08:40 AM
New Syrian sample under J-FGC32147(J-Z2177 -> PH185) who is from Banu Tamim tribe.

SUPREEEEEME
10-27-2020, 09:00 AM
New Syrian sample under J-FGC32147(J-Z2177 -> PH185) who is from Banu Tamim tribe.

Yes - he will likely form a clade at some point with the Saudi, who forms a clade with him on FTDNA. There is another Syrian on FTDNA with this group based on STRs but hasn't undergone sufficient testing. It seems most of the J-L70 Syrians tested at FTDNA are under Z2177 - save for one who is J-F801.

Emre Altug
10-27-2020, 09:34 AM
Yes - he will likely form a clade at some point with the Saudi, who forms a clade with him on FTDNA. There is another Syrian on FTDNA with this group based on STRs but hasn't undergone sufficient testing. It seems most of the J-L70 Syrians tested at FTDNA are under Z2177 - save for one who is J-F801.

I also have a 37 Marker Distance 2 Syrian (Latakia) match from FTDNA, i contacted him but he didn't reply. He only took a 37 marker test. He's probably the same clade with me (J-Z2177->PH84).

SUPREEEEEME
10-27-2020, 09:40 AM
I also have a 37 Marker Distance 2 Syrian (Latakia) match from FTDNA, i contacted him but he didn't reply. He only took a 37 marker test. He's probably the same clade with me (J-Z2177->PH84).

Is your match kit B429879?

Emre Altug
10-27-2020, 01:45 PM
Is your match kit B429879?

I can't see his kit nr., and his country is not shown. i don't think he is in a project either. just guessed from his name, googled it :)

SUPREEEEEME
10-27-2020, 01:49 PM
I can't see his kit nr., and his country is not shown. i don't think he is in a project either. just guessed from his name, googled it :)

Yeah - I think you're matching a different kit to the one I posted. While from Latakia, the kit I posted is only 12 markers. I imagine there are quite a few J-L70 kits from the Middle East that aren't SNP tested or on projects, with the only way to find them being through matching.

I have found quite a few Middle Eastern J-L70 kits where they've put their country of origin as unknown.

J.delajara
10-27-2020, 01:53 PM
Yes - he will likely form a clade at some point with the Saudi, who forms a clade with him on FTDNA. There is another Syrian on FTDNA with this group based on STRs but hasn't undergone sufficient testing. It seems most of the J-L70 Syrians tested at FTDNA are under Z2177 - save for one who is J-F801.

Good day Supreeme and Emre. On YFULL live tree, the Saudi and both Syrian samples ( from the same geographical area, Dayr Az Sawr) are considered basal to FGC32147, and as you said, they probably will form a new clade, such as the Italian Ranaissance sample and the unknown person, both under Z32056, a new subclade of FGC32147.
Best Regards

Emre Altug
11-02-2020, 10:52 AM
New sample from Kuwait under J-FGC31975 (J-2148->J-F801)

SUPREEEEEME
11-02-2020, 11:59 AM
New sample from Kuwait under J-FGC31975 (J-2148->J-F801)

A very cool find - that "neck of the woods" (i.e. J-PH3882) appears to be strongly Middle Eastern, with a Syrian (and now Kuwaiti) under J-F801, a Jewish (Cohen) branch under J-Z39057, and a Basal Middle Eastern person at J-BY57393.

J.delajara
11-07-2020, 01:46 PM
Good day to everyone. A new Armenian sample is included under L-70 tree on Yfull. He is basal at BY242, together with the kalinowsky family and the Hellenic-Roman from San Marcellino in Rome ( V century AD) his path is: PF5456/Y24651/Z40772/BY242.

SUPREEEEEME
11-07-2020, 02:37 PM
Good day to everyone. A new Armenian sample is included under L-70 tree on Yfull. He is basal at BY242, together with the kalinowsky family and the Hellenic-Roman from San Marcellino in Rome ( V century AD) his path is: PF5456/Y24651/Z40772/BY242.

Good to see another Near Eastern flag under J-CTS3601. Unfortunately, very few J-CTS3601 Near Easterners have taken BigYs (or equivalent) to begin with. There are a large number of them on FTDNA - they just haven't tested deep enough.

J.delajara
11-07-2020, 03:06 PM
Good to see another Near Eastern flag under J-CTS3601. Unfortunately, very few J-CTS3601 Near Easterners have taken BigYs (or equivalent) to begin with. There are a large number of them on FTDNA - they just haven't tested deep enough.

Thanks Supreeeme. Is quite interesting to underline, that the TMRCA of this subclade is 1200 ybp (according to Yfull) more or less 800 AD, considering that one sample is from the Hellenic-Roman, buried on the V Century AD, according to the Antonio paper, is a bit strange. Best Regards

Emre Altug
11-09-2020, 12:07 PM
I am so impatient for the new version of YFull tree. We formed a new branch (J-Y181566) with the Saudi Arabian. I wonder about the TMRCA. If it's more than 2500, it will not help me at all.

SUPREEEEEME
11-19-2020, 06:56 AM
One of the Jordanian J-L70's on FTDNA has been SNP tested for J-FT63319. It could be the same person as the J-L70* on YFull, but we'll have to wait and see.

J.delajara
11-19-2020, 11:12 PM
One of the Jordanian J-L70's on FTDNA has been SNP tested for J-FT63319. It could be the same person as the J-L70* on YFull, but we'll have to wait and see.

Hi Supreeeme, it seems is the same person, that made a BigY700, that's why on FTDNA they found him positive to J-FT63319. You can see now that on Yfull he has two ID's, YF11643 and YF79300. Regards

SUPREEEEEME
11-20-2020, 05:05 AM
Hi Supreeeme, it seems is the same person, that made a BigY700, that's why on FTDNA they found him positive to J-FT63319. You can see now that on Yfull he has two ID's, YF11643 and YF79300. Regards

Thanks - can see that on the YFull tree now

Emre Altug
12-02-2020, 10:54 AM
Sample from Czech has been added under J-Z39494. Probably Ashkenazi regarding his ancestors name and same subclade with the other Ashkenazis

SUPREEEEEME
12-02-2020, 11:51 AM
Sample from Czech has been added under J-Z39494. Probably Ashkenazi regarding his ancestors name and same subclade with the other Ashkenazis

Yes, falls under one of the many Jewish branches within J-L70

SUPREEEEEME
12-27-2020, 07:34 AM
Been a while since I've posted anything new:

- A Saudi is Basal to J-Z2177>J-FGC52108. The surname suggests a Palestinian origin. In terms of autosomal results, <5% Arabian, >60% Levantine (mostly Southern). Will likely form a new clade with an individual of the same family name.
- The J-Z2177>J-PH185* Saudi has formed a new clade with an unknown individual J-PH185>J-FT20070
- Many Syrian and Saudi L70's have been tested within the last 1-2 months (it seems), all from the Bani Tamim tribe. All J-PH185>J-FGC24630 (based on STRs, no SNP testing done).
- From Eupedia: "Cole, Jim, John, and Bob Younger were notable members of the 19th-century James-Younger gang of American outlaws, which also included Jesse James. Their paternal haplogroup was identified by the Younger DNA Project based on the results of five participants with solid genealogical records. Their deep clade is downstream of L25 > L70 > Z2177 > PH185." One of them appears to have undergone a BigY, and is Basal to the Italian Converso Jewish lineage. Amusing that these outlaws were likely of Jewish descent.

J Man
12-28-2020, 04:29 PM
Been a while since I've posted anything new:

- A Saudi is Basal to J-Z2177>J-FGC52108. The surname suggests a Palestinian origin. In terms of autosomal results, <5% Arabian, >60% Levantine (mostly Southern). Will likely form a new clade with an individual of the same family name.
- The J-Z2177>J-PH185* Saudi has formed a new clade with an unknown individual J-PH185>J-FT20070
- Many Syrian and Saudi L70's have been tested within the last 1-2 months (it seems), all from the Bani Tamim tribe. All J-PH185>J-FGC24630 (based on STRs, no SNP testing done).
- From Eupedia: "Cole, Jim, John, and Bob Younger were notable members of the 19th-century James-Younger gang of American outlaws, which also included Jesse James. Their paternal haplogroup was identified by the Younger DNA Project based on the results of five participants with solid genealogical records. Their deep clade is downstream of L25 > L70 > Z2177 > PH185." One of them appears to have undergone a BigY, and is Basal to the Italian Converso Jewish lineage. Amusing that these outlaws were likely of Jewish descent.

There are Bani Tamim tribe J2a-L70 samples from Syria as well then?

SUPREEEEEME
12-28-2020, 05:13 PM
There are Bani Tamim tribe J2a-L70 samples from Syria as well then?

Yes!

Both of these individuals are Bani Tamim - and this is probably where they will all fall:
https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY130571/

All of these kits should be on page 2 of the results page of this project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/wayeel/about/background

Emre Altug
01-11-2021, 05:30 PM
New sample from Azores/Portugal under J-FGC58748* (which is under PF5456) clusterred with the Swedish from Örebrö, we'll see where he'll fit eventually.
There's also 2 Azoreans under J-FT51679 and 2 more under J-PF257.
Total 5 Azoreans under J-L70 according to YFULL only.
Does anyone know anything about the history of migrations to Azores ?

SUPREEEEEME
01-11-2021, 05:44 PM
New sample from Azores/Portugal under J-FGC58748* (which is under PF5456) clusterred with the Swedish from Örebrö, we'll see where he'll fit eventually.
There's also 2 Azoreans under J-FT51679 and 2 more under J-PF257.
Total 5 Azoreans under J-L70 according to YFULL only.
Does anyone know anything about the history of migrations to Azores ?

These young Azorean branches are very similar to those in other MENA clades, specifically such as J-BY143137 and J-ZS8811. The origins of these broader branches are likely similar to that of J-L70 (i.e. Levantine).

I would hazard a guess that these Azorean branches within J-L70 can be associated with the Phoenicians - it seems to the most likely scenario.

J.delajara
01-12-2021, 02:13 PM
New sample from Azores/Portugal under J-FGC58748* (which is under PF5456) clusterred with the Swedish from Örebrö, we'll see where he'll fit eventually.
There's also 2 Azoreans under J-FT51679 and 2 more under J-PF257.
Total 5 Azoreans under J-L70 according to YFULL only.
Does anyone know anything about the history of migrations to Azores ?

Hi Emre, thanks for the information. The Azores were permanently colonized by Portuguese settlers from the XV's century. There is evidence of previous human settlements, but they were not inhabited when Portuguese navigators arrived to the islands. So, until we have further news from the ancient origin of L70 in Portugal, we won't have an answer, although the origin could be different regarding Z39282 and FGC58748. The interesting aspect, is that this new Portuguese person, has a common male ancestor with the Swedish (according to YFULL) 2300 Ybp. The oldest L70 we have in Scandinavia is from a Viking ( basal to FGC32690), maybe his origin could help us more. Best Regards

davit
01-12-2021, 02:21 PM
Hi Emre, thanks for the information. The Azores were permanently colonized by Portuguese settlers from the XV's century. There is evidence of previous human settlements, but they were not inhabited when Portuguese navigators arrived to the islands. So, until we have further news from the ancient origin of L70 in Portugal, we won't have an answer, although the origin could be different regarding Z39282 and FGC58748. The interesting aspect, is that this new Portuguese person, has a common male ancestor with the Swedish (according to YFULL) 2300 Ybp. The oldest L70 we have in Scandinavia is from a Viking ( basal to FGC32690), maybe his origin could help us more. Best Regards

Who would the previous human settlements have belonged to?

J.delajara
01-12-2021, 02:43 PM
Who would the previous human settlements have belonged to?

There is no evidence, as far as I know, of the culture of those people. The islands were probably known already to sailors, at least from the XIII's century. The hypothesis of previos inhabitants, at least 150 years before the Portuguese settlers, was made by some scientists on a paper published on 2017, based on pollen and vegetation evolution on the island, the paper is called Vegetation and landscape dynamics under natural and anthropogenic forcing on the Azores Islands: A 700-year pollen record from the Săo Miguel Island and it could be read on: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277379116305753

Emre Altug
01-12-2021, 05:47 PM
Hi Emre, thanks for the information. The Azores were permanently colonized by Portuguese settlers from the XV's century. There is evidence of previous human settlements, but they were not inhabited when Portuguese navigators arrived to the islands. So, until we have further news from the ancient origin of L70 in Portugal, we won't have an answer, although the origin could be different regarding Z39282 and FGC58748. The interesting aspect, is that this new Portuguese person, has a common male ancestor with the Swedish (according to YFULL) 2300 Ybp. The oldest L70 we have in Scandinavia is from a Viking ( basal to FGC32690), maybe his origin could help us more. Best Regards

When YFull matches were shown before the last update about the ages, i could see the information of the Portuguese. One of them might have a Dutchman origin according to his surname (i did a little research). But he may also be native Portuguese.
Regarding the Azorean clustering with the Swedish, the question arises, does the ancestors of the Swedish from Örebro originate from the Mediterranean ?
The VK42 sample is said to have partly Southern European origin, so his paternal line might also belong to Med. But can't be sure though. Since there's also some samples of L70 scattered in Scandinavia.

SUPREEEEEME
01-12-2021, 06:15 PM
When YFull matches were shown before the last update about the ages, i could see the information of the Portuguese. One of them might have a Dutchman origin according to his surname (i did a little research). But he may also be native Portuguese.
Regarding the Azorean clustering with the Swedish, the question arises, does the ancestors of the Swedish from Örebro originate from the Mediterranean ?
The VK42 sample is said to have partly Southern European origin, so his paternal line might also belong to Med. But can't be sure though. Since there's also some samples of L70 scattered in Scandinavia.

Given what we know of J-L70, the ancestor of this Viking almost certainly came from the Mediterranean (his autosomal ancestry very much supports this as well). It is worth noting that J-L70 wasn't the only Middle Eastern clade to show up in the Viking paper.

Most J-L70 in these parts of Europe (Germanic Europe, the British Isles, Scandinavia) is relatively recent (i.e. it's very likely they arrived in these regions earliest during the Roman Empire, and even then, we can see some deeper clades are of Jewish origin etc...). Additionally, J-L70 is incredibly rare in Scandinavia - in countries like Sweden and Norway, J-L70 doesn't even reach 0.1% of their total population.

Going back to the Azorean clades, one of these clades - J-Y99995 - could very likely be of Jewish origin given the age of J-Z39282 and the tradition of those within J-M318. A Dutch ancestor could also easily be linked to Sephardic Jews.

J.delajara
01-12-2021, 07:59 PM
When YFull matches were shown before the last update about the ages, i could see the information of the Portuguese. One of them might have a Dutchman origin according to his surname (i did a little research). But he may also be native Portuguese.
Regarding the Azorean clustering with the Swedish, the question arises, does the ancestors of the Swedish from Örebro originate from the Mediterranean ?
The VK42 sample is said to have partly Southern European origin, so his paternal line might also belong to Med. But can't be sure though. Since there's also some samples of L70 scattered in Scandinavia.

Thanks Emre, I indeed underline the origin of this Viking sample, because is in part Mediterranean, specifically close to southern Italians, maybe there is the clue.

SUPREEEEEME
01-15-2021, 04:01 PM
NEW Sicilian from Palermo

https://yfull.com/tree/J-S10971/

Emre Altug
01-15-2021, 05:38 PM
NEW Sicilian from Palermo

https://yfull.com/tree/J-S10971/
Thanks for that. Couldn't see the flag right now and i was wondering about the country. Mr. Delajara has a new match congrats :)

J.delajara
01-15-2021, 05:58 PM
Thanks for that. Couldn't see the flag right now and i was wondering about the country. Mr. Delajara has a new match congrats :)

Many Thanks Emre, yes indeed. !!

Emre Altug
01-16-2021, 11:15 AM
YF80672 NEW Sicilian from Catania under J-Z2177(Z2177*,FT51679*)

SUPREEEEEME
01-16-2021, 12:07 PM
YF80672 NEW Sicilian from Catania under J-Z2177(Z2177*,FT51679*)

I'll double-check with Principe, but this Sicilian might be the one at J-FGC63655 on FTDNA.

We have Principe to thank for these Sicilian uploads to YFull.

Emre Altug
01-19-2021, 08:55 AM
New sample under J-FGC52112(under Z2177) but the country is unknown for now, anyone knows where's he from ?
By the way, come on man ! I'm waiting some new samples under PH84 or even FT51679

SUPREEEEEME
01-19-2021, 09:59 AM
New sample under J-FGC52112(under Z2177) but the country is unknown for now, anyone knows where's he from ?
By the way, come on man ! I'm waiting some new samples under PH84 or even FT51679

I assume it's one of the Greek kits, but we will have to wait and see.

Emre Altug
01-22-2021, 06:43 PM
I was searching for Bosnian DNA. I checked Bosnian DNA project map and out of 48 J2a samples, 14 of them were L70. (%29.2)
There are still J-M172 or J-L26 unknown subclades. I don't know how many people do take test in Bosnia but they have a potential for L70.
Majority of them are Z2177
Keep in mind that I2, E-V13, R1a and J2b are still overrunning
Here's my reference; https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1OsAy-5BiJzGcHTEtF-00FYJsjwM&ll=45.08558140000002%2C18.028736099999993&z=8
The test taker families who were L70+
-Bashov (Pomak)
-Bralić
-Delić
-Ejupi (Gorani)
-Ferizovic
-Hadrović
-Hadžimusić
-Haliti (Gorani)
-Hasanbašić
-Nurković (x3)
-Sijarić
-Žepčan

SUPREEEEEME
01-22-2021, 06:53 PM
I was searching for Bosnian DNA. I checked Bosnian DNA project map and out of 48 J2a samples, 14 of them were L70. (%29.2)
There are still J-M172 or J-L26 unknown subclades. I don't know how many people do take test in Bosnia but they have a potential for L70.
Majority of them are Z2177
Keep in mind that I2,E-V13 or J2b are still overrunning
Here's my reference; https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1OsAy-5BiJzGcHTEtF-00FYJsjwM&ll=45.08558140000002%2C18.028736099999993&z=8
The test taker families who were L70+
-Bashov (Pomak)
-Bralić
-Delić
-Ejupi (Gorani)
-Ferizovic
-Hadrović
-Hadžimusić
-Haliti (Gorani)
-Hasanbašić
-Nurković (x3)
-Sijarić
-Žepčan

A pity none are FTDNA tested - and a shame that 23andMe's database isn't publicly available to browse in some form. I've found plenty of Palestinians, Lebanese Christians, Syrians, Bukharan Jews, Mountain Jews, and North African Sephardic Jews who are J-L70 through them.

SUPREEEEEME
01-22-2021, 06:55 PM
"NEW"

https://yfull.com/tree/J-S10971/

One of the kits has updated its flag to Saudi Arabia. Based on matches, there might be an Eastern Sephardic Jew in this branch as well, with the Avotaynu Project.

Emre Altug
01-22-2021, 07:08 PM
A pity none are FTDNA tested - and a shame that 23andMe's database isn't publicly available to browse in some form. I've found plenty of Palestinians, Lebanese Christians, Syrians, Bukharan Jews, Mountain Jews, and North African Sephardic Jews who are J-L70 through them.
What a shame, these genealogy testing companies should share the haplogroups and corresponding country of origins without exposing the kit owner information
I would also suggest FTDNA to open their Y-STR database as well. And should force people to specify their country of origin. Lot of unknowns in FTDNA database.

altvred
01-22-2021, 07:30 PM
What a shame, these genealogy testing companies should share the haplogroups and corresponding country of origins without exposing the kit owner information
I would also suggest FTDNA to open their Y-STR database as well. And should force people to specify their country of origin. Lot of unknowns in FTDNA database.

This really ticks me off whenever I encounter it. I have zero Y-STR matches beyond 12-markers on FTDNA, the only one I encountered that was significantly close to me was a 10-step distance 111-marker kit on a project page. But no Paternal ancestors Name or even Country listed for said kit... I mean, if it isn't a case of the person being too lazy to update it and it's some privacy concern of his, then why even bother getting tested and joining public projects in the first place? I don't get it.

J.delajara
01-22-2021, 08:04 PM
Hello to all of you. I think one important conclusion we can begin to raise at this point, is that L70 is a wide spread clade. From Scotland to Saudi Arabia, and from Anatolia to Portugal. Another important conclusion is that the Mediterranean is indeed an relevant place for L70's, and probably played an important role on its clades history. What I'm almost certain is that different cultures helped to its expansion, and ancient dna will help us to have a clearer picture. Best regards to all of you, specially to Supreeme and Emre and to all other L70's, our history is really fascinating...

J.delajara
01-27-2021, 12:19 PM
Good morning. On Yfull (live) the Saudi and the Sicilian formed a new subclade under S10971: Z32111. On FTDNA that clade has two British as well.

SUPREEEEEME
02-02-2021, 07:56 AM
NEW Lithuanian Jew

https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC21085/

This branch is most likely the largest branch in J-L70 in terms of sheer size - with 200+ kits within it.

leperrine
02-09-2021, 05:55 PM
I finally got my sample added to YFULL. Here's my ID: YF63883

J.delajara
02-18-2021, 12:36 PM
Hi, good morning to all of you. A new sample is under S10971 on Yfull, according to the ''live'' version it should be under Z32111, for what I see on FTDNA Block tree it should be a British, but we don't know yet. Best Regards

Emre Altug
03-04-2021, 07:55 AM
New kit under J-Z2177*. YF81624.
I think it's the same with the English one... Now i see it..

J.delajara
03-05-2021, 01:06 AM
Hi, good morning to all of you. A new sample is under S10971 on Yfull, according to the ''live'' version it should be under Z32111, for what I see on FTDNA Block tree it should be a British, but we don't know yet. Best Regards

Hi to all of you, the new sample under Z32111 is from Belgium, from the Hainaut province in Walonia, with a typical Belgian surname. Best regards

Emre Altug
03-09-2021, 04:43 PM
New participant under J-Z39494 (YF81761). No flags yet it's obvious he's a Jew, regarding the branch

SUPREEEEEME
03-09-2021, 05:51 PM
New participant under J-Z39494 (YF81761). No flags yet it's obvious he's a Jew, regarding the branch

Should be an Ashkenazi paternal line from France.

Emre Altug
03-19-2021, 04:20 PM
NEW participant id:YF82255 he is under J-S11348.
Country of origin not specified yet.

SUPREEEEEME
03-20-2021, 04:54 AM
NEW participant id:YF82255 he is under J-S11348.
Country of origin not specified yet.

Looks like an Armenian

Emre Altug
03-20-2021, 08:06 AM
Looks like an Armenian

Wow, how did you see that ? Still not specified. In FTDNA there are Mexicans, Europeans etc.
Edit : Now i can see the Armenian flag :) Nice catch Supreeme

J.delajara
03-24-2021, 05:50 PM
Wow, how did you see that ? Still not specified. In FTDNA there are Mexicans, Europeans etc.
Edit : Now i can see the Armenian flag :) Nice catch Supreeme

Good day to all of you. The Armenian on Yfull ''live'' appears to be basal to a new subclade, Y193140, on top of the Turkish and the Cypriot, under Y192621. So we still have the Italian ( Tuscan) as basal to S11348. Best Regards

SUPREEEEEME
03-28-2021, 07:17 AM
NEW Sicilian from Palermo

https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC32147/

I have been discussing with others that a chunk of the J-L70 in Sicily appears to be from the Aghlabid Dynasty - who were Bani Tamim. This Sicilian, as well as many others, are in a sibling branch to the large Bani Tamim branch which adds to the likelihood that the Sicilians in J-FGC32147 are descended from Bani Tamim.

Mrtni
03-30-2021, 11:56 AM
Hey,

J2a L-70 here. My paternal side is Central Anatolian.

J2a-L70/Pf5434/S287. Don‘t know what the last two mean. Is there anyone who could explain it?

Principe
03-30-2021, 02:09 PM
Hey,

J2a L-70 here. My paternal side is Central Anatolian.

J2a-L70/Pf5434/S287. Don‘t know what the last two mean. Is there anyone who could explain it?

They are other defining snps for L70, it just means you are J-L70, which dna company did you test with?

Mrtni
03-30-2021, 02:13 PM
I used 23AndMe and therefore Morley dna

Principe
03-30-2021, 02:21 PM
I used 23AndMe and therefore Morley dna

No other snps were tested or could be found via Morley right?

I don't know if 23andMe tests for any of the downstreams of L70, maybe somebody who tested with 23&me would know for this. Have you checked out the Yfull tree?

There are currently 6 branches under the L70 tree with people of Turkish origin, there are probably more.

leorcooper19
03-30-2021, 02:24 PM
No other snps were tested or could be found via Morley right?

I don't know if 23andMe tests for any of the downstreams of L70, maybe somebody who tested with 23&me would know for this. Have you checked out the Yfull tree?

The Ashkenazi lineages within J-L70 both get J-L70 on 23andMe, so they at least don't test for PH2725 or CTS3601 > PF5456.

Mrtni
03-30-2021, 03:13 PM
Hey, thank you for the quick answer!

https://postimg.cc/nsfVLwmW

This is all I saw and I am not really used to it.

Principe
03-30-2021, 03:46 PM
Hey, thank you for the quick answer!

https://postimg.cc/nsfVLwmW

This is all I saw and I am not really used to it.

My pleasure, and based on the image you posted you won't belong to the PH2725 branch.

So either a basal clade or under one of the 2 other main branches CTS3601 or Z2177

Mrtni
03-30-2021, 04:26 PM
Could you explain me the PH2725 and which Region has the highest peak of it? I mean J2 is such a big Haplogroup. It spreads from Central Asia up to West Europe.

SUPREEEEEME
03-30-2021, 05:10 PM
Could you explain me the PH2725 and which Region has the highest peak of it? I mean J2 is such a big Haplogroup. It spreads from Central Asia up to West Europe.

J-PH2725 (or rather, J-PH3882) is one of J-L70's 3 main branches. It is the smallest of them. If I had to guess, in terms of frequency, it may be most common amongst Ashkenazi Jews - there is a large Ashkenazi branch there, with several of the individuals having the Cohanim tradition. I can provide a description of the branches there. J-PH2725's sibling branch, J-FGC78706 is Basal in an individual from the British Isles (I'd wager a remnant of the Syrian Auxiliaries that made their way there). J-BY57393 should split into a branch found in the British Isles (J-BY125813), and a branch that is found in the Middle East (currently Basal to it). I have contacted the Middle Eastern members in order to ascertain where they are from, but they unfortunately never got back to me. The only thing I was able to go off of were the surnames "Saeed" and "Alhabrot".

J-PH2725 splits into two branches - J-F801 and J-Z39057. J-Z39057 is certainly of Jewish origin. J-Z39057 splits into two branches, the main Jewish branch, and a young Irish branch (which is apparently originally from France). The other branch, J-F801 is pretty widespread. There are members in this branch from Syria and Kuwait, as well as Switzerland, Greece, Bulgaria, Latvia etc... What I find intriguing is that we find another trend within this branch, a young Azorean clade (J-Y84181). There is a similar case of this happening immediately outside of the Jewish J-L70>J-M318, as well as near J-L829 (which has been proposed as being Phoenician in origin), and near J-ZS241 (which has been proposed as being Amorite in origin). All these lineages are similarly aged, and I suspect this isn't a coincidence. So we could maybe propose that J-F801 could have spread from the Northern Levant (while J-Z39057 was likely situated in the Southern Levant), with some branches staying put and wounding up in Kuwait, the Azores (via the Phoenicians), and perhaps some branches may have spread into Anatolia, and then into Greece, Bulgaria, etc.... Based on this we could theorize that the most recent common ancestor of J-PH2725 could have either lived in the Northern Levant (with J-Z39057 going south) or in the Southern Levant (with J-F801 going north). Hopefully, within the next few years, we can start to find new branches here.

If we look at J-L70 as a whole, the highest frequencies are in Italy and the Levant (particularly Syria). Even in terms of diversity, the Levant and Italy take the cake by a reasonably large margin - especially considering that regions like the Levant and Anatolia are undertested compared to Europe. I imagine the largest portion of J-L70 in Italy is derived from the Roman Auxiliary units from Syria and Lebanon. The same goes for Central Europe, Western Europe, the British Isles, and even the Balkans - where all these units (each being some 5000 strong, so surely J-L70 was found in a sufficient number of them) wound up. A lessor portion of Italian J-L70 is from the likes of Jews, Phoenicians, Anatolians/Greeks etc....

I believe that J-L70 ultimately originated in Syria.

Mrtni
03-30-2021, 10:30 PM
Also thank you to you for this detailed explanation.
Like I said before, I am not an expert or wise enough to talk about the structures of the Y-DNA but I am not sure if L-70 originated in Syria. I‘d presume Eastern Anatolia/Southeast Anatolia as the Birthplace of this Branch and not Syria. Maybe it went to Europe through Neolithic farmers because it was also found in uncommon places and Ethnic groups. And does anyone know the history of Central Anatolia? I mean did it get a large impact of Levantine components or is it more native Anatolian? And how far are is or was the difference between an ANF and CHG?

leorcooper19
03-31-2021, 12:33 AM
Also thank you to you for this detailed explanation.
Like I said before, I am not an expert or wise enough to talk about the structures of the Y-DNA but I am not sure if L-70 originated in Syria. I‘d presume Eastern Anatolia/Southeast Anatolia as the Birthplace of this Branch and not Syria. Maybe it went to Europe through Neolithic farmers because it was also found in uncommon places and Ethnic groups. And does anyone know the history of Central Anatolia? I mean did it get a large impact of Levantine components or is it more native Anatolian? And how far are is or was the difference between an ANF and CHG?

J-L70 is much younger than any of these Hunter-Gatherer/early Farmer groups. It began to diversify in the Mid-to-Late Bronze Age. Its spread is hotly debated, but IMO it has to be somewhere in West Asia, not Europe. Anatolia or the Levant (or anywhere in between) are very possible for where it originated.

SUPREEEEEME
03-31-2021, 06:23 AM
Also thank you to you for this detailed explanation.
Like I said before, I am not an expert or wise enough to talk about the structures of the Y-DNA but I am not sure if L-70 originated in Syria. I‘d presume Eastern Anatolia/Southeast Anatolia as the Birthplace of this Branch and not Syria. Maybe it went to Europe through Neolithic farmers because it was also found in uncommon places and Ethnic groups. And does anyone know the history of Central Anatolia? I mean did it get a large impact of Levantine components or is it more native Anatolian? And how far are is or was the difference between an ANF and CHG?

I agree with leorcooper19 - J-L70 is too young to be associated with the Neolithic Farmers, so they couldn't have spread it. If anything, J-L70's parent - J-Z387 - was probably associated with the Neolithic migrations from Iran, and probably spread from Mesopotamia.

I'll copy my post from another thread on why an Anatolian origin isn't as likely as a Levantine origin:


While an Anatolian origin isn't out of the question, the evidence currently is pointing towards the Levant as being L70's region of origin. There are several reasons why I think J-L70 did not originate in Anatolia:
1) We are starting to see several basal branches being found in the Levant - an indication that this is not a mere coincidence. Anatolia appears to have undergone the same level of testing as the Levant. Considering this, if J-L70 did originate in Anatolia, I would have expected to find several basal Anatolians by now - but we have not, rather finding Southern Levantines. Granted, J-FT63319 does appear to have a Turk closest to basal (not basal to the whole clade itself) - but this is a pretty uncommon clade, so its origins will be more difficult to decipher. I imagine as the Levant tests further, we will begin to find more basal clades and unknown branches, particularly among the Levantine Christian population.
2) J-L70 displays it's greatest branch diversity in the Levant (and Italy) - not Anatolia. Considering the similar levels of testing, if it were Anatolian we should be seeing it the other way around. While these branches could have migrated from Anatolia to the Levant, I can't imagine the probability of this many J-L70 Anatolian males with this many different branches settling in the Levant during the Middle-Late Bronze Age, considering all the different branches of J2 and others found in Anatolia. There are at least 10 (actually 15, now) distinct , significantly distant Jewish branches under J-L70. I believe there could be more - but only time will tell. No similarly aged clade has as many distinct Jewish lineages - save for perhaps J-Y2919, but that's 600 years older. This is very significant. Historically, Jews have always been a small, endogamous population. Whenever mixing occurred with the host population, it was almost always with Jewish men and non-Jewish women. It's been proven for some time now that the vast majority of Jewish Y-DNA are of Near Eastern origin. What are the odds of having at least 10 distinct lineages under a branch not much older than organised Judaism itself, without an origin in ancient Israel? Not very high. Two of these lineages are even Cohen branches! Not to mention the spread of non-Jewish Levantines amongst several other branches, considering that most Levantines who are J-L70 either haven't taken a Y-Chromosome test (i.e. they've taken 23andMe and the like) or haven't taken a BigY. Anatolia doesn't show this diversity.
3) I not only believe that J-L70 originated in the Levant, but J-Z387 as a whole (I now think J-Z387 likely arrived from Mesopotamia). J-L70's sibling clade, J-FGC35503 is classically Southwest Asian in distribution. J-FGC35503 also has two basal lines in Lebanon.

This is all too much of a coincidence for J-L70 to be Anatolian in origin.

I'm not completely against J-L70 having an Anatolian origin, but I haven't found any strong evidence to suggest it originated there. I fully expect to find J-L70's oldest ancient samples in the Levant in the coming months/years.


Another issue with an Anatolian origin is described by leorcooper19's post in the same thread:


Now, here is what I think could be (on the surface) a reasonable statement: J-L70's origin is in Anatolia, it spread to the Greeks who then spread it across the Mediterranean, and it also spread to the Levant through Hittite happenings. That's why there is diversity in each region. I could totally see that being reasonable, if the phylogeny didn't exist. We know that there are Levantines and Greeks/Italians (and non-Med Europeans) at practically every level of the star-shaped phylogeny. If there were branches that went to Greece and branches that went to the Levant then we should see a clear distinction between the subclades. We just don't. Even subclades as young as 1000 or 900 BCE have modern descendants in both regions. To me, that means that a population, that was both rich *and* diverse in J-L70 (meaning time had passed for genetic mutations to accrue) supplied a lot of Y-chromosomes to either Mediterranean Europe or to the Levant. Only that can explain why there is such diversity on a subclade-by-subclade basis, rather than the clade as a whole.

I don't mean to repeat what others have said, but I think the damning evidence is, personally, the diversity among Jews. I mostly focus on Jewish Y-DNA, and it's a serious point that J-L70 is the clade aged around 4000-3500 ybp that has the most phylogenetically distinct Jewish lineages. To say that all of these lines entered Jewry from Greeks is crazy to me; that's not to say introgressions from Greeks didn't happen, as they certainly did. But at least 10 times in the same relatively young (at the time) clade? If it were that common, we should be seeing way more Greek-descendant clades among Jews that didn't happen to be in J-L70. Not even getting into whether the introgressions were in the diaspora or in Judea...


I do agree with you, that if J-L70 didn't originate in the Levant, then it was probably in Eastern Anatolia - but I think Syria makes a lot more sense given the distribution, and historical connections we can make. For example, J-L70's TMRCA corresponds with the emergence of Amorite power in Syria. An Amorite connection with J-L70 makes complete sense for how there are so many Jewish branches in J-L70 (many of which have individuals with a Cohanim tradition) and an origin in Syria makes sense for it's spread in Europe (when considering the likes of the many Roman Auxiliary units from the Levant - particularly Syria). J-L70's main growth period (1400 BCE - 1100 BCE) corresponds with the prosperity of many of the cities of this region, and is the likely source for J-L70's diversification of branches.

Some pretty damning evidence (in my opinion) are all the Levantine Basal branches. We've got J-L70* (i.e. J-FT63319) in Jordan, J-Z423* in a Palestinian, J-Z2148* in a Sinai Egyptian (both these individuals form a clade on FTDNA sibling to J-Z435). We've also got J-Z387* in a Sephardic Jew, and two different branches of J-FGC35503* in Lebanon.

As for how J-L70 wound up in Anatolia, I can quite easily see this happening when the Hittites were in control of the Northern Levant. Of course, this could have also happened at a later stage.

J.delajara
03-31-2021, 12:17 PM
Hello to all of you. I think Principe's statement on this matter, wrote on another threat, regarding L70 is still valid, we don't have yet enough evidence to settle the origin of L70. Although for me, and some others, the Anatolic Origin for L70 still has more chances ( you can read all my arguments on this and other threats), the growing presence of Turkish under this clade, on different subclades, is an important fact, not enough, but relevant. We have different opinions regarding the origin of our father clade, and that is because it is widely spread and touches different cultures and religions from the Middle East to Europe, with a strong Mediterranean trace. Once more, I would like to say that ancient samples from the Bronze Age/early Iron Age, will help us to clear this situation, we will all probably have interesting surprises. Best regards

harrimir
03-31-2021, 02:43 PM
It's interesting that the idea of the spread of a lot of L-70 branches from Roman-era Syrian and Arab migration is now being seriously discussed. I know when that was my theory last year it was less supported. I wish I could afford getting a deep Y test to contribute to the ongoing investigation into these clades.

( Particularly because my own paternal lineage is potentially from a Sicilian town that was historically founded by Arab settlers. (Or might be from an older roman era syrian or deeper italian/greek settlement in campania. There are two separate families of the same name and I don't know which port my ancestor left from!)

Emre Altug
03-31-2021, 04:23 PM
Also thank you to you for this detailed explanation.
Like I said before, I am not an expert or wise enough to talk about the structures of the Y-DNA but I am not sure if L-70 originated in Syria. I‘d presume Eastern Anatolia/Southeast Anatolia as the Birthplace of this Branch and not Syria. Maybe it went to Europe through Neolithic farmers because it was also found in uncommon places and Ethnic groups. And does anyone know the history of Central Anatolia? I mean did it get a large impact of Levantine components or is it more native Anatolian? And how far are is or was the difference between an ANF and CHG?

Hello, which city is your paternal line from ? Are you ethnical Turk ?

Mrtni
04-01-2021, 12:47 AM
Hey, my paternal side is from Kayseri and yes, I am an ethnical Turk.

SUPREEEEEME
04-01-2021, 05:59 AM
Excited to confirm that we have a new Sephardic BigY - his family migrated to the New World in the 1500s from Portugal and were founding settlers in New Mexico in 1598.

He is Basal to J-FGC58748 and should fall here on YFull: https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC58748/ (I will try and see if we can get him uploaded)

There is a large Sephardic branch here, exclusively from Portugal and Spain - most of the individuals all have the same surname. They don't match the other individuals in J-FGC58748.

Emre Altug
04-02-2021, 04:17 PM
Hey, my paternal side is from Kayseri and yes, I am an ethnical Turk.

As i've seen, there's a dense amount of L70 in Central Anatolia in Turkey, particularly.

Mrtni
04-02-2021, 05:05 PM
As i've seen, there's a dense amount of L70 in Central Anatolia in Turkey, particularly.

Do you know why the density is so high in central anatolia? Does it come from the Hittites or from the Kura-Araxes culture? Or were there any Semitic tribes who settled down in this area?

J.delajara
04-02-2021, 05:48 PM
Do you know why the density is so high in central anatolia? Does it come from the Hittites or from the Kura-Araxes culture? Or were there any Semitic tribes who settled down in this area?

It is also interesting the high concentration of L70 in the Antalya Province (Cennioglu et al (2004), King)

Mrtni
04-02-2021, 06:28 PM
It is also interesting the high concentration of L70 in the Antalya Province (Cennioglu et al (2004), King)

Did they share a common empire? MyHeritage showed me, that some of my ancestors came from eastern Anatolia (Erzincan) and 23AndMe gave me also a bigger piece of East Anatolian heritage. So further samples could show us, if it spread from the East to Central Anatolia and then down to Antalya and Syria.

J.delajara
04-02-2021, 06:36 PM
Did they share a common empire? MyHeritage showed me, that some of my ancestors came from eastern Anatolia (Erzincan) and 23AndMe gave me also a bigger piece of East Anatolian heritage. So further samples could show us, if it spread from the East to Central Anatolia and then down to Antalya and Syria.

I think we need to wait for ancient samples to have further answers. What probably happened is that at least two or three big civilizations helped to its expansion on many places.

Emre Altug
04-02-2021, 06:49 PM
Do you know why the density is so high in central anatolia? Does it come from the Hittites or from the Kura-Araxes culture? Or were there any Semitic tribes who settled down in this area?

Not necessarily Semitic. There weren't significant Semite migrations to Anatolia. (If we exclude Assyrians.). Also L70 itself is older than Semites. We don't know where did it come from. Anatolia (eastern part) or Northwestern Syria might be the originating point. I can't just think of more "southern" origin.

SUPREEEEEME
04-02-2021, 07:09 PM
Something that is important to mention - which is something I never realised initially - is that most of the studies don't test for J-L70, they test for DYS445=6, which is a characteristic of all of J-Z387. So when DYS445=6 spikes in Mersin at 12%, it's likely a mix of J-FGC35503 and J-L70 (small sample sizes aside).

So the spikes we see in Trapani, Mazara del Vallo, Latina and Ascoli Piceno, Mersin, Sivas, Var are all J-Z387. This is why my first distribution map isn't entirely accurate - since I had not realised this at the time, but these frequencies nonetheless do give us insight into where we see greater concentrations. Other regions from my own research that display greater concentrations include Aljoun, Sinai, Deir ez Zur, and Lake Van (in this case, the Jewish subclade J-M318).

I have since collected data from FamilyTreeDNA - so I've got much larger sample sizes, and likely a better reflection of J-L70's distribution, but just more vague as it's on a country basis.No surprise in that J-L70 is most common in the Mediterranean and Near East.

I'll share the highest frequencies here - I will make the rest of what I have available soon - but J-L70 isn't as significant in other regions as those mentioned:
Syria: 3.34% (12/359)
Italy and Malta: 3.19% (97/3040)
Lebanon: 2.12% (9/424)
Palestinian Territories: 2% (4/200)
Jordan: 1.64% (3/183)
Turkey: 1.53% (13/847) -- out of interest, quite a decent chunk are Armenians
Iraq: 1.52% (18/1184)
Greece: 1.47% (10/682)
Armenia: 1.25% (7/562)

Technically the Djerban Cohanim are the group with the most J-L70 (~60%), but the TMRCA of their branch is only 1700 ybp. I imagine there was a founder effect of some sort. But their traditions take their paternal line back to ~600 BCE Israel, or even ~900 BCE.

Ultimately we will need an actual study to go and get better regional data for us (fingers crossed)

I do agree with J.delajara that relevant ancient samples are in dire need for J-L70 - definitely spread through many sources, but I suspect its main diversification of branches occurred amongst one culture.


Not necessarily Semitic. There weren't significant Semite migrations to Anatolia. (If we exclude Assyrians.). Also L70 itself is older than Semites. We don't know where did it come from. Anatolia (eastern part) or Northwestern Syria might be the originating point. I can't just think of more "southern" origin.

J-L70 may have even spread from Eastern Syria. When J-L70's main growth period started in 1400 BCE, J-L70 likely spread quickly throughout Syria, and many branches were likely soon present in the Southern Levant before the formation of the Israelite tribes (15 distinct, distant Jewish branches within J-L70 suggests the Jewish branches are of Israelite origin - this will likely have implications for the branches surrounding them).

I have been discussing with Agamemnon (he's more than welcome to join in if he wants) that J-Z387 may have taken part in early Semitic dispersals. It ticks all the boxes for such an association, with TMRCA estimates and various branches corresponding with major migratory events among the early Semites. If not Proto-Semites, then Proto-West Semitic or Proto-Central Semitic. J-Z387's TMRCA (7100 ybp) may be congruent with the first infusion of Late Neolithic Mesopotamians into the Levant or signals the adoption of Afroasiatic speech. J-Z387 phylogeny resembles J1's major Semitic branch (Z2331) closely.

It's a distinct possibility.

Emre Altug
04-04-2021, 08:05 AM
NEW participant fell under J-FGC32685. Yfull ID : YF82958.

Emre Altug
04-04-2021, 05:58 PM
NEW another participant under J-FGC21085. Probably Ashkenazi. id:YF82982

J.delajara
04-07-2021, 12:29 PM
Good day to all of you. New sample under FT94405, under PH185 i.d. YF83119, no country yet. Regards

Emre Altug
04-07-2021, 03:23 PM
Good day to all of you. New sample under FT94405, under PH185 i.d. YF83119, no country yet. Regards

There's one more under J-Z2148*, too :) id :YF83141

SUPREEEEEME
04-07-2021, 03:30 PM
Been an eventful week for us

SUPREEEEEME
04-10-2021, 06:17 AM
NEW

Lithuanian Jew:

https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC21085/

Emre Altug
04-10-2021, 10:48 AM
NEW

Lithuanian Jew:

https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC21085/

FGC21085 is growing like there's no tomorrow :)

SUPREEEEEME
04-10-2021, 10:52 AM
FGC21085 is growing like there's no tomorrow :)

It is the largest branch in J-L70 after all :)

leorcooper19
04-10-2021, 12:25 PM
NEW

Lithuanian Jew:

https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC21085/

My grand uncle! This was a pleasant surprise after getting his Nebula WGS back yesterday :)

J.delajara
04-12-2021, 01:42 AM
Hello to all of you. A new sample under BY242, with no country yet. Best regards

J.delajara
04-14-2021, 12:38 PM
Good morning. A new sample under FGC58748, under Z40772. Unfortunately, again, with no flag yet.

SUPREEEEEME
04-14-2021, 01:52 PM
Good morning. A new sample under FGC58748, under Z40772. Unfortunately, again, with no flag yet.

I'll double-check, but should be the Sephardic Jew I mentioned a little bit ago. If it is, I'll see what I can do about getting a flag + language

Helves
04-14-2021, 02:42 PM
A Kurd from Sulaymaniyah(Northeast Iraq) posted in the 23andme subreddit a couple days ago, ydna J-L70.

Honestly this seems like such a big subclade. I wonder how it got so widespread.

SUPREEEEEME
04-14-2021, 06:41 PM
A Kurd from Sulaymaniyah(Northeast Iraq) posted in the 23andme subreddit a couple days ago, ydna J-L70.

Honestly this seems like such a big subclade. I wonder how it got so widespread.

I've found quite a few Kurds within J-L70 on FTDNA, which is intriguing.

If we were to assume that J-L70 spread from around Syria (I understand not everyone necessarily agrees) we can start to hypothesize how J-L70 may have spread.

Within the Near East:
J-L70 would have first spread throughout the Near East region.
For how it spread to the Southern Levant, this may have been during Egyptian rule of parts of the Levant. It may have also been spread there via Amorites or Arameans.
For how it spread to Mesopotamia, the Middle Assyrian Empire may be responsible.
For how it then spread to Anatolia, the Hittites may be the answer.

Within Europe:
We're probably looking at a variety of sources, such as:
- Phoenicians (lessor)
- Greeks via Anatolia (lessor)
- Jewish Diaspora (lessor)
- Aghlabid Dynasty (lessor - strictly Sicily)
- Syrian Auxiliaries (greater - the majority for many different parts of Europe, particularly Germanic Europe, the British Isles, and even the Balkans - wherever they wound up)
- Perhaps even Roman Auxiliaries from Anatolia

I'm still on the lookout for an Assyrian J-L70 ;)

J.delajara
04-14-2021, 08:18 PM
I've found quite a few Kurds within J-L70 on FTDNA, which is intriguing.

If we were to assume that J-L70 spread from around Syria (I understand not everyone necessarily agrees) we can start to hypothesize how J-L70 may have spread.

Within the Near East:
J-L70 would have first spread throughout the Near East region.
For how it spread to the Southern Levant, this may have been during Egyptian rule of parts of the Levant. It may have also been spread there via Amorites or Arameans.
For how it spread to Mesopotamia, the Middle Assyrian Empire may be responsible.
For how it then spread to Anatolia, the Hittites may be the answer.

Within Europe:
We're probably looking at a variety of sources, such as:
- Phoenicians (lessor)
- Greeks via Anatolia (lessor)
- Jewish Diaspora (lessor)
- Aghlabid Dynasty (lessor - strictly Sicily)
- Syrian Auxiliaries (greater - the majority for many different parts of Europe, particularly Germanic Europe, the British Isles, and even the Balkans - wherever they wound up)
- Perhaps even Roman Auxiliaries from Anatolia

I'm still on the lookout for an Assyrian J-L70 ;)

Hi Supreeme, I will not go deeper on your full analysis, you already know my opinion, more linked to an Anatolian/Greek expansion (not exclusively but mainly), not only to the West, but also to part of the Levant and part of the Middle East. Of course we need to have more ancient evidence to have stronger arguments. What I don't think is accurate, is your 'Syrian roman auxiliaries' as the main source of L70 in Europe, I think that the big amount of L70 in Italy is mainly due to different waves of population from Anatolian/Aegean/Greece, to the Italian peninsula, specially to the Central South on different historical periods, that is: Pelasgians, Mycenaeans, Classical Greeks ( VIII Century colonizations) and others. Southern Italians ( to use a contemporary term) were an important part of roman army, long before Syrians were used as auxiliary troops. The roman expansion in places such as Hispania, Northern Africa or Galia, was made mainly with ''Italians'' during the last part of the Republic. Syria became a Roman province only with Pompeius Magnus, after defeating the Seleucid King of that region, on 63 BCE. They indeed were Syrian auxiliary troops, but the ''italians'' ( or italiotes from Magna Graecia ) were much more important for a longer period of time. Best Regards

Principe
04-14-2021, 08:52 PM
I think we’ll see a variation of branches having distinct origins. The most basals clearly point towards the East and the younger shows movement heading West. I personally say we’ll see native branches from Israel to Greece.

Even within other branches we see huge variation, L70 is the best example of this. I can see it possible that in Iron Age J-M318 vs J-S11348 having entirely different origins separated by hundreds of years. So all theories work right now, question is which is right or are we going to have a situation where everyone is a little right?

Essentially everyone wins scenario.

SUPREEEEEME
04-15-2021, 06:05 PM
Hi Supreeme, I will not go deeper on your full analysis, you already know my opinion, more linked to an Anatolian/Greek expansion (not exclusively but mainly), not only to the West, but also to part of the Levant and part of the Middle East. Of course we need to have more ancient evidence to have stronger arguments. What I don't think is accurate, is your 'Syrian roman auxiliaries' as the main source of L70 in Europe, I think that the big amount of L70 in Italy is mainly due to different waves of population from Anatolian/Aegean/Greece, to the Italian peninsula, specially to the Central South on different historical periods, that is: Pelasgians, Mycenaeans, Classical Greeks ( VIII Century colonizations) and others. Southern Italians ( to use a contemporary term) were an important part of roman army, long before Syrians were used as auxiliary troops. The roman expansion in places such as Hispania, Northern Africa or Galia, was made mainly with ''Italians'' during the last part of the Republic. Syria became a Roman province only with Pompeius Magnus, after defeating the Seleucid King of that region, on 63 BCE. They indeed were Syrian auxiliary troops, but the ''italians'' ( or italiotes from Magna Graecia ) were much more important for a longer period of time. Best Regards

As always, thanks for your insight, Juan.

Given Italy's J-L70 frequency of around ~3.19%, their J-L70 is bound to have arrived via several sources. I will agree that some are likely via Anatolians/Greeks - although I don't think it will account for the majority - looking at existing branches in Italy, the only ones that I can see that may be attributable to such an expansion would be a handful within J-PH185 (but not J-FGC32147, which is bound to be early Arab). Some we know are of Jewish origin, with the best example being J-M318 in Sicily and Malta. There are other converso families from Central and Southern Italy as well. I do agree that within Central and Southern Italy we'll find branches that derive from both Greeks and Levantines. In Central Italy, some are bound to have arrived during Imperial Rome (including via Anatolians).

Regarding the Syrian Auxiliaries - I was mainly referring to other parts of Europe (not necessarily Italy itself). The regions I expect J-L70 to be mainly derived via these men are the Rhineland, Austria, Serbia, Romania, Pannonia, and Britain (if we were to consider that J-L70 diversified in Syria, it would easily explain all the different branches from these regions popping up). Regarding France, I imagine the South would be from Italiotes, while Central and Northern France would be via Syrian Auxiliaries. But I agree that Iberia was more Italiote (aside from branches derived via Sephardic Jews).

Helves
04-15-2021, 06:16 PM
I'm still on the lookout for an Assyrian J-L70 ;)
There are very few public deep subclade Assyrian YDNA out there(like on ftdna and yfull and on various DNA forums). But one of the Assyrians from the Iraqi project is J-L70.

J.delajara
04-15-2021, 10:46 PM
As always, thanks for your insight, Juan.

Given Italy's J-L70 frequency of around ~3.19%, their J-L70 is bound to have arrived via several sources. I will agree that some are likely via Anatolians/Greeks - although I don't think it will account for the majority - looking at existing branches in Italy, the only ones that I can see that may be attributable to such an expansion would be a handful within J-PH185 (but not J-FGC32147, which is bound to be early Arab). Some we know are of Jewish origin, with the best example being J-M318 in Sicily and Malta. There are other converso families from Central and Southern Italy as well. I do agree that within Central and Southern Italy we'll find branches that derive from both Greeks and Levantines. In Central Italy, some are bound to have arrived during Imperial Rome (including via Anatolians).

Regarding the Syrian Auxiliaries - I was mainly referring to other parts of Europe (not necessarily Italy itself). The regions I expect J-L70 to be mainly derived via these men are the Rhineland, Austria, Serbia, Romania, Pannonia, and Britain (if we were to consider that J-L70 diversified in Syria, it would easily explain all the different branches from these regions popping up). Regarding France, I imagine the South would be from Italiotes, while Central and Northern France would be via Syrian Auxiliaries. But I agree that Iberia was more Italiote (aside from branches derived via Sephardic Jews).

Thanks a lot Supreeme. I think we both agree that, Anatolian/Greek/italiotes and Syrians, as part of the roman military expansion spread L70 on different places around Europe. What we don't agree, is the level of each source. I still think that on other European countries, such as Germany, Scotland, Serbia, Netherlands and others, the main source came from the Italian Peninsula. So let's wait again for ancient samples, they will probably give us more concrete answers. Best Regards!!

Emre Altug
04-17-2021, 03:48 PM
Off the topic, we got Dad's autosomal results. Strangely, he is closest to Greeks of Kayseri. I didn't expect that !
44363
44364

Emre Altug
04-20-2021, 04:48 PM
NEW sample under J-Y24651*
id:YF83816
Country of origin not specified yet

Principe
04-20-2021, 05:35 PM
NEW sample under J-Y24651*
id:YF83816
Country of origin not specified yet

Based off Ftdna its either Isles, Greek or Italian sample, there was also several Albanians that are under here as a possibility. Or of course could be someone entirely different and throw everyone off!

J.delajara
04-23-2021, 09:01 PM
Hello to everyone. A new sample under S10971 on Yfull, with no country of origin yet, as it's been unfortunately usual for almost all our last samples under L70. Best Regards

SUPREEEEEME
04-24-2021, 01:25 PM
It is time to reboot this thread, particularly the first post. This thread has been live for over a year now, and I know considerably more than I did back then. There are many errors on the first post and we have more data now - the reason for this reboot.

So without further adieu, here is the updated presence of J-L70 in the Middle East/North Africa. This will remain strictly FTDNA. I will indicate where a kit is 12 markers, as the predictions should be taken as a grain of salt.

The format is as follows: Region - Terminal SNP - Nevgen Prediction (ethnic group/clan where applicable)

Lebanon
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (58.1%) Unsupported Clade (32.9%) 12 markers
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (89.9%)
Chouf J-M172 J-CTS3601 (92.6%)
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (48.5%) J-PH3882 (22.4%) J-Z2177 (21.4%)
Marjayoun J-M172 J-Z2177 (90.7%) (Druze)
N/A J-M172 J-Z2177 (93.2%)
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (92.6%) (Druze)
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (92.6%) (Druze)
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (44.5%) Unsupported Clade (30.7%) 12 markers

Syria
N/A J-L25 J-Z2177 (91.8%) (Bani Tamim)
Latakia J-Z438 J-Z2177 (32.4%) J-PH3882 (19.4%) Unsupported Clade (40.7%) 12 markers
Aleppo J-L70 J-Z2177 (54.1%) Unsupported Clade (45.9%) (Alawite)
Deir ez-Zur J-FGC24630 Not Necessary (Bani Skhr) 12 markers
Deir ez-Zur J-Y128867 Not Necessary (Bani Skhr)
N/A J-M172 J-Z2177 (97%) (Bani Tamim)
Al Mayadin J-BY130671 Not Necessary (Bani Tamim)
N/A J-F801 Not Necessary
N/A J-M172 J-Z2177 (87.9%) (Bani Tamim)
N/A J-M172 J-Z2177 (87.9%) (Bani Tamim)
N/A J-M172 J-Z2177 (87.9%) (Bani Tamim)
N/A ? J-CTS3601 (77%)
N/A J-M172 Unsupported Clade (79%) J-PH3882 (20.2%)

Jordan
Aljoun J-M172 Unsupported Clade (97.7%) Likely J-FT63319 (Al-Qudah)
Aljoun J-FT63319 Not Necessary (Al-Qudah)
Aljoun J-M172 Unsupported Clade (92%) Likely J-FT63319 (Al-Qudah) 12 markers

Palestinian Territories
Gaza J-FT340863 Not Necessary (Al-Muthili)
N/A J-M172 Unsupported Clade (57.5%) J-CTS3601 (22.4%) J-PH3882 (18.2%)
N/A J-M172 J-FT63319 (44.4%) Unsupported Clade (43.4%) (Bani Khalid) 12 markers
Hebron J-M172 Unsupported Clade (57.4%) J-CTS3601 (25.6%) J-Z2177 (14.3%) (Al-Jabari) 12 markers

Egypt
Sinai J-FT340863 Not Necessary (Al-Ryashat)
Sinai J-L25 J-Z2177 (50.4%) J-PH3882 (32.4%) (Al-Nassar) 12 markers

Iraq
N/A J-PF5160 Unsupported Clade (83.6%) J-Z2177 (16.2%) 12 markers
Anbar J-M172 Unsupported Clades (47.1%) J-Z2177 (23%) 12 markers
Anbar J-L25 Unsupported Clades (47.1%) J-Z2177 (23%) 12 markers
Baghdad J-Z438 J-FT63319 (74.8%) Unsupported Clade (17.6%) (Al-Qaisi)
Kirkuk J-Z438 Unsupported Clade (51%) J-Z2177 (19.1%) J-CTS3601 (12.5%) (Talabani; Kurdish) 12 markers
Ranya J-M172 J-PH3882 (33.5%) J-Z2177 (28.5%) Unsupported Clade (18.8%) (Kurdish) 12 markers
Kufa J-CTS3601 Not Necessary (Kinani Arab) 12 markers
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (40.5%) J-PH3882 (25.4%) Unsupported Clade (32.8%) (Al-Jaf)
Chamchamal J-M172 J-CTS3601 (94%) (Al-Jaf; Kurdish)
N/A J-CTS6061 Not Necessary (Al-Abbasi)
Samarra J-Z438 J-Z2177 (45.2%) J-PH3882 (31.2%) 12 markers
Anbar J-Z438 Unsupported Clade (67.5%) J-Z2177 (30.8%) (Bani Skhr) 12 markers
Alqosh J-M172 Unsupported Clade (60%) J-Z2177 (29.8%) (Chaldean/Assyrian) 12 markers
N/A J-M172 J-PH3882 (33.5%) J-Z2177 (28.5%) Unsupported Clade (18.8%) (Al-Jaf) 12 markers
Najaf J-M172 J-CTS3601 (80.7%) J-Z2177 (13.5%) 12 markers
Kirkuk J-M172 Unsupported Clade (57.9%) J-Z2177 (42.1%)
N/A J-CTS3601 Not Necessary 12 markers

Saudi Arabia
Makkah J-FGC52108 Not Necessary
Makkah J-M172 Likely J-FGC52108 12 markers
N/A J-L70 J-Z435-
Makkah J-FT20070 Not Necessary (Bani al-Harith)
Makkah J-FT144606 Not Necessary (Al-Husseini)
N/A J-M172 Likely J-FT373011 (Bani Tamim) 12 markers
N/A J-M172 Likely J-FT373011 (Bani Tamim) 12 markers
N/A J-M172 Likely J-FT373011 (Bani Tamim) 12 markers
N/A J-M172 Likely J-FT373011 (Bani Tamim) 12 markers
Riyad J-FT373011 Not Necessary (Bani Tamim)

Turkey
Transoxiania J-M172 J-CTS3601 (49%) J-Z2177 (25.5%) Unsupported Clade (25.3%) 12 markers
Bayazet J-BY116555 Not Necessary (Armenian)
Marash J-L70 J-Z2177 (61.3%) J-CTS3601 (19.5%) Unsupported Clade (19.2%) (Armenian)
Sivas J-FT144606 Not Necessary
Bursa J-FGC24630 Not Necessary
Enzindjan J-M172 Unsupported Clade (54.9%) J-Z2177 (44.5%) (Armenian)
Konya J-PF5456 Not Necessary 12 markers
N/A J-S11438 Not Necessary 12 markers
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (44%) J-PH3882 (18.6%) Unsupported Clade (30.5%)
Saimbeyli J-M172 J-Z2177 (86.6%) Unsupported Clade (13.4%) (Armenian)
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (78.3%)
N/A J-M172 J-CTS3601 (44.7%) 12 markers
Kharpert J-L70 J-Z435- (Armenian)
N/A J-M172 J-Z2177 (94.2%) (Armenian)

Armenia
N/A J-M172 Unsupported Clade (98.4%) (Armenian) 12 markers
Bitlis J-M172 Unsupported Clade (59.2%) J-Z2177 (33.6%) (Armenian)
Syunik J-Z32138 Not Necessary (Armenian)
N/A J-CTS3601 Likely J-Z32138 (Armenian)
N/A J-Z435 J-CTS3601 (89%) (Armenian)
N/A J-PF5456 Not Necessary (Armenian)
N/A J-Z40781 Not Necessary (Armenian)

Azerbaijan
Lenkoran J-M172 J-CTS3601 (45.1%) Unsupported Clade (35.2%) 12 markers
Lerik J-M172 Likely J-PH2725 12 markers
Lerik J-PH2725 Not Necessary 12 markers
Lerik J-M172 Unsupported Clade (51.7%) Probably J-PH2725 12 markers
Astara J-M172 J-Z2177 (72.6%) 12 markers

Iran
N/A J-M172 Unsupported Clade (47.5%) Likely J-Z32138 (Armenian) 12 markers
N/A J-M172 J-Z2177 (100%) Likely J-Z32138 (Armenian)
Miandoab J-M172 J-Z2177 (100%) Likely J-Z32138 (Armenian)

Unknown MENA
N/A J-M172 Likely J-FT373011 (Bani Tamim)
N/A J-M172 Likely J-FT373011 (Bani Tamim)
N/A J-M172 Likely J-FT373011 (Bani Tamim)
N/A J-M172 Likely J-FT373011 (Bani Tamim)
N/A J-M172 Likely J-FT373011 (Bani Tamim)
N/A J-M172 Likely J-PH3882
N/A J-BY57393 Not Necessary

J.delajara
04-24-2021, 08:41 PM
Hello to everyone. A new sample under S10971 on Yfull, with no country of origin yet, as it's been unfortunately usual for almost all our last samples under L70. Best Regards

At the end is another Dutch, Van Gorp surname from North Barbant, he can track his ancestors origin to the XVth century. Is interesting to find different individuals from the Netherlands and Belgium on this subclade. Best Regards

Emre Altug
04-28-2021, 07:32 PM
Website was down so couldn't post it;
New participant under J-FGC32147 (id:YF84051)
As we all complain, country of origin is not specified like the quite majority of the last uploaded test kits.

Emre Altug
05-02-2021, 09:21 AM
New participant under J-Y24651* , id:YF84204. Country of origin not specified yet again.

J.delajara
05-04-2021, 11:19 PM
Hello to all of you. At least we have a new flag under BY242: France, no further information regarding his region of origin or surname. Best Regards

J.delajara
05-05-2021, 01:39 AM
Hi again, the new basal under Y24651, is from the US. His surname is Bryant, a typical Celtic surname, They came from the UK to the US ( most probably from southern England). Best Regards

J.delajara
05-05-2021, 06:01 PM
News regarding my subclade S10971 on Yfull, the two Dutch formed a new subclade ( as I thought they would...) under FGC6736 (FGC6734 on FTDNA). Regards

Emre Altug
05-14-2021, 08:52 AM
UPDATE
id:YF83141 under J-Z2148* is Albanian :)

SUPREEEEEME
05-14-2021, 12:07 PM
UPDATE
id:YF83141 under J-Z2148* is Albanian :)

Yeah, I saw that, I was initially quite surprised - but should my "predictions" of L70 hold true, we can suggest an explanation. I suspect this is from that Albanian DNA Project that released data a little while ago.

J.delajara
05-19-2021, 04:13 PM
Good day to all of you. A new Turkish sample on Yfull under L70. It's under FGC58748. Also on FGC32147, the Sicilian sample formed a new subclade together with an unknown person.

Best regards

Mrtni
05-20-2021, 10:45 PM
Is there any heatmap available for the countries where L 70 is present ?

SUPREEEEEME
05-21-2021, 06:17 AM
Is there any heatmap available for the countries where L 70 is present ?

Yes:

44729

J.delajara
05-21-2021, 10:24 AM
Is there any heatmap available for the countries where L 70 is present ?

Good morning, on Yfull you can find one, by clicking on L70. Best regards

Emre Altug
05-21-2021, 03:57 PM
And this map is from YFull.com
44742

SUPREEEEEME
05-23-2021, 07:27 AM
Two new samples from the Turkish WGS study:

https://yfull.com/tree/J-S11348/

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2148*/

One at J-Z2148* and one in J-S11348 - which is looking strongly Anatolian.

I look forward to the biographical information being released for all the samples.

Emre Altug
05-23-2021, 09:04 AM
Two new samples from the Turkish WGS study:

https://yfull.com/tree/J-S11348/

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2148*/

One at J-Z2148* and one in J-S11348 - which is looking strongly Anatolian.

I look forward to the biographical information being released for all the samples.

Some guys in Turkish DNA revealed the autosomal results of some few samples.
Can we also determine these L70 guys ? Do any of you guys know how to get the autosomals ?

Emre Altug
05-24-2021, 03:08 PM
New participant under the Ashkenazi J-Z39491 with id:YF85306

J.delajara
06-01-2021, 07:07 PM
Hello to all of you, a new sample from the Turkish study on Yfull: Y24651*.

Emre Altug
06-02-2021, 03:26 PM
One more Turkish sample under J-CTS3601*

SUPREEEEEME
06-03-2021, 05:37 AM
Good to see some Middle Eastern representation on this branch:

https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-FGC32690/

J.delajara
06-04-2021, 01:40 PM
Good day. A new Turkish sample PH185*

Emre Altug
06-04-2021, 08:21 PM
Another new sample from the Turkish study under J-PF5456*

Emre Altug
06-09-2021, 07:17 PM
I got the autosomal results of the 8 samples from the Turkish study. Most of them are Anatolian and Balkan Turks , also one from Pontus region, and a Nusayri. The latter 2 are Z2177+ and PH185+.
I'll be sharing them soon.

SUPREEEEEME
06-09-2021, 07:43 PM
A Pontic J-L70 is quite a find. J-L70 is rare amongst them. Hundreds of them have tested with FamilyTreeDNA, but none are J-L70.

It is reasonable to assume that SRS8752836 (Balkan Turk) is a Jewish exit given that he forms a clade with a Sephardic testee (many Jewish clades have a similar TMRCA of 2000 ybp). Quite a few individuals from this study are turning out to be Jewish exits. Given that his autosomal results don't show any recent Jewish ancestry, it would likely not be a recent exit.

This would have implications for J-FGC58748 as a whole (and likely for J-Z40772 aswell)

Glaucus
06-10-2021, 10:37 AM
My maternal grandmother’s father Harold George Walker’s ancestry was Colonial European American. A few years back, I found out that my maternal grandmother’s father Harold George Walker’s Y DNA haplogroup is J2a4h2 which is known as J-L25. A descendant of his 2nd Great Grandfather Peyton Walker, son of William Walker took the Y DNA test which resulted in finding out that he was J-L25. The haplogroup assignment has been refined, and it is now J-PH3125. There are six haplogroups in the branch before J-PH3125. In exact order, they are J-CTS1192>J-L70>J-Z435>J-CTS3601>J-PF5456>J-FGC54172.



Both 5th Great Grandpa Peyton Walker and 6th Grandpa William Walker were born in Virginia.



I am already around 1/8 Ashkenazi Jewish from my maternal grandmother’s mother Ruth Sarah Rosenthal who was a first generation American born to a father from Romania and a mother from Latvia.
My maternal grandfather's father was the son of Cape Verdean immigrants. My maternal grandfather's maternal grandfather was Puerto Rican. My maternal grandfather's maternal grandmother was the Hawaiian born daughter of Madeiran immigrants, and her paternal grandfather was from the Azores. Therefore, I suspect some Sephardic Jewish on my maternal grandfather's side.

My African American father was born and raised in New Orleans, and his mother had some Acadian ancestry. One of her Acadian ancestors was Abraham Dugas who was suspected by some to be Sephardic Jewish, and his Y DNA haplogroup J-Y25793. His closest match is a Druze man in Lebanon.

J.delajara
06-10-2021, 01:39 PM
My maternal grandmother’s father Harold George Walker’s ancestry was Colonial European American Colonial. A few years back, I found out that my maternal grandmother’s father Harold George Walker’s Y DNA haplogroup is J2a4h2 which is known as J-L25. A descendant of his 2nd Great Grandfather Peyton Walker, son of William Walker took the Y DNA test which resulted in finding out that he was J-L25. The haplogroup assignment has been refined, and it is now J-PH3125. There are six haplogroups in the branch before J-PH3125. In exact order, they are J-CTS1192>J-L70>J-Z435>J-CTS3601>J-PF5456>J-FGC54172.



Both 5th Great Grandpa Peyton Walker and 6th Grandpa William Walker were born in Virginia.



I am already around 1/8 Ashkenazi Jewish from my maternal grandmother’s mother Ruth Sarah Rosenthal who was a first generation American born to a father from Romania and a mother from Latvia.
My maternal grandfather's father was the son of Cape Verdean immigrants. My maternal grandfather's maternal grandfather was Puerto Rican. My maternal grandfather's maternal grandmother was the Hawaiian born daughter of Madeiran immigrants, and her paternal grandfather was from the Azores. Therefore, I suspect some Sephardic Jewish on my maternal grandfather's side.

My African American father was born and raised in New Orleans, and his mother had some Acadian ancestry. One of her Acadian ancestors was Abraham Dugas who was suspected by some to be Sephardic Jewish, and his Y DNA haplogroup J-Y25793. His closest match is a Druze man in Lebanon.

Hi Glaucus. On Yfull you can find the Y24651/FGC54172 tree, www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y24651/ . There is also another basal from Virginia with that clade, his surname is Bryant, and he has British ancestors as probably the Walker family. Regards

Emre Altug
06-10-2021, 04:53 PM
A Pontic J-L70 is quite a find. J-L70 is rare amongst them. Hundreds of them have tested with FamilyTreeDNA, but none are J-L70.

It is reasonable to assume that SRS8752836 (Balkan Turk) is a Jewish exit given that he forms a clade with a Sephardic testee (many Jewish clades have a similar TMRCA of 2000 ybp). Quite a few individuals from this study are turning out to be Jewish exits. Given that his autosomal results don't show any recent Jewish ancestry, it would likely not be a recent exit.

This would have implications for J-FGC58748 as a whole (and likely for J-Z40772 aswell)

I'll post the admixtures soon, maybe this weekend.
The Pontic guy is quite interesting because everything in his admixture shows he's pure Pontic, except a relatively high North European component. He has around %8 NE in Dodecad K12b. Other Pontians have 0 to maximum 4.
That's why he is modelled as %11 Pomak + %89 Turkish(Trabzon/Rize)

Glaucus
06-10-2021, 05:46 PM
Hi Glaucus. On Yfull you can find the Y24651/FGC54172 tree, www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y24651/ . There is also another basal from Virginia with that clade, his surname is Bryant, and he has British ancestors as probably the Walker family. Regards


I grew up thinking that my Walker family line was English. I ended up learning that it's actually Ulster Scot.
My distant cousins believe that William Walker's paternal ancestors immigrated to Virginia from Scotland or Ireland.
My Walker family were in what is now known as West Virginia before locating to Goochland County, Virginia before 1800.
That territory was mainly populated by Ulster Scots.


What kind of patrilineal ancestors did my Walker ancestors had?
I don't know of any Jewish ancestry in my Colonial British American Walker family.

Could one of my Walker patrilineal ancestors been an ancient Roman soldier in Britain in connection to Hadrian's Wall?


What's your opinion about my 11th/12th Great Grandfather Abraham Dugas? Could he have been of Sephardic Jewish?
Could this just be descent from a Roman man that settled in France?
I do find it interesting that his closest Y DNA match is a Druze man in Lebanon.

at eupedia, Maciamo seems to think J-L70 is connected to the Romans

J.delajara
06-10-2021, 06:33 PM
I grew up thinking that my Walker family line was English. I ended up learning that it's actually Ulster Scot.
My distant cousins believe that William Walker's paternal ancestors immigrated to Virginia from Scotland or Ireland.
My Walker family were in what is now known as West Virginia before locating to Goochland County, Virginia before 1800.
That territory was mainly populated by Ulster Scots.


What kind of patrilineal ancestors did my Walker ancestors had?
I don't know of any Jewish ancestry in my Colonial British American Walker family.

Could one of my Walker patrilineal ancestors been an ancient Roman soldier in Britain in connection to Hadrian's Wall?


What's your opinion about my 11th/12th Great Grandfather Abraham Dugas? Could he have been of Sephardic Jewish?
Could this just be descent from a Roman man that settled in France?
I do find it interesting that his closest Y DNA match is a Druze man in Lebanon.

at eupedia, Maciamo seems to think J-L70 is connected to the Romans

Thanks a lot for your answer Glaucus. The origin of L70 is not yet clear, and as you can read on this and other threats, there are different options still open with different approaches . As soon as we will have ancient samples, we will have more conclusive elements to propose a stronger hypothesis. What we have until now, is that L70's belong to different cultures and religions, and that the Mediterranean played an important role on its subclades history. In my personal view I think romans indeed had an important role on expanding some L70 clades in Europe. There are some Scots, English and British in general , that belong to L70's clades. Regarding your Dugas ancestor, it is difficult to have an answer, I'am not an expert on Sephardic DNA so I can not give you more arguments, what I see on Yfull regarding his clade is that it seams to be concentrated in the Middle East.
Best Regards

SUPREEEEEME
06-10-2021, 07:01 PM
My maternal grandmother’s father Harold George Walker’s ancestry was Colonial European American. A few years back, I found out that my maternal grandmother’s father Harold George Walker’s Y DNA haplogroup is J2a4h2 which is known as J-L25. A descendant of his 2nd Great Grandfather Peyton Walker, son of William Walker took the Y DNA test which resulted in finding out that he was J-L25. The haplogroup assignment has been refined, and it is now J-PH3125. There are six haplogroups in the branch before J-PH3125. In exact order, they are J-CTS1192>J-L70>J-Z435>J-CTS3601>J-PF5456>J-FGC54172.



Both 5th Great Grandpa Peyton Walker and 6th Grandpa William Walker were born in Virginia.



I am already around 1/8 Ashkenazi Jewish from my maternal grandmother’s mother Ruth Sarah Rosenthal who was a first generation American born to a father from Romania and a mother from Latvia.
My maternal grandfather's father was the son of Cape Verdean immigrants. My maternal grandfather's maternal grandfather was Puerto Rican. My maternal grandfather's maternal grandmother was the Hawaiian born daughter of Madeiran immigrants, and her paternal grandfather was from the Azores. Therefore, I suspect some Sephardic Jewish on my maternal grandfather's side.

My African American father was born and raised in New Orleans, and his mother had some Acadian ancestry. One of her Acadian ancestors was Abraham Dugas who was suspected by some to be Sephardic Jewish, and his Y DNA haplogroup J-Y25793. His closest match is a Druze man in Lebanon.

While the possibility exists for Jewish ancestry since there are indeed Jewish lineages within J-FGC54172, we would need to confirm this with Sephardic matches. The most recent Jewish connection with your Walker line would be at ~1000 BCE.

SUPREEEEEME
06-10-2021, 07:09 PM
I grew up thinking that my Walker family line was English. I ended up learning that it's actually Ulster Scot.
My distant cousins believe that William Walker's paternal ancestors immigrated to Virginia from Scotland or Ireland.
My Walker family were in what is now known as West Virginia before locating to Goochland County, Virginia before 1800.
That territory was mainly populated by Ulster Scots.


What kind of patrilineal ancestors did my Walker ancestors had?
I don't know of any Jewish ancestry in my Colonial British American Walker family.

Could one of my Walker patrilineal ancestors been an ancient Roman soldier in Britain in connection to Hadrian's Wall?


What's your opinion about my 11th/12th Great Grandfather Abraham Dugas? Could he have been of Sephardic Jewish?
Could this just be descent from a Roman man that settled in France?
I do find it interesting that his closest Y DNA match is a Druze man in Lebanon.

at eupedia, Maciamo seems to think J-L70 is connected to the Romans

I'd take what Maciamo says about J-L70 with a grain of salt. His site is incredibly outdated - you'd find more useful and relevant information here.

He traditionally attributed J-L70 to being an Italic marker. It is most certainly not.

What appears clear, at least to me, is that J-L70 originated somewhere between the Levant and Anatolia in the Middle East. It likely principally spread throughout the Middle East, and only then made its way to Europe - likely via the Romans as the dominant source, who continued to spread it throughout continental Europe. However, J-L70's main growth period occurred long before the Romans, between 1400 BCE and 1100 BCE, and so it is within the civilizations of this time frame that we are looking for a culture responsible for its diversification of branches.

Glaucus
06-10-2021, 07:50 PM
Thanks a lot for your answer Glaucus. The origin of L70 is not yet clear, and as you can read on this and other threats, there are different options still open with different approaches . As soon as we will have ancient samples, we will have more conclusive elements to propose a stronger hypothesis. What we have until now, is that L70's belong to different cultures and religions, and that the Mediterranean played an important role on its subclades history. In my personal view I think romans indeed had an important role on expanding some L70 clades in Europe. There are some Scots, English and British in general , that belong to L70's clades. Regarding your Dugas ancestor, it is difficult to have an answer, I'am not an expert on Sephardic DNA so I can not give you more arguments, what I see on Yfull regarding his clade is that it seams to be concentrated in the Middle East.
Best Regards

correction to my mistake
Abraham was my 10th/11th Great Grandfather
He was married to my 10th/11th Great Grandmother Marguerite Louise Doucet whose mitochondrial DNA haplogroup is T2b7a2.
they're ancestors of thousands of people with Acadian ancestry too
Acadians are so highly recent endogamous that I believe all people with Acadian ancestry are related to each other through some shared 17th Century
My 10th/11th Great Grandmother Margeurite's mitochondrial DNA haplogroup is T2b7a2.


I notice some of my other Acadian founding ancestors had haplogroups that weren't typical of French people

mitochondrial DNA haplogroups
Radegonde Lambert X2b4
Edmee Lejeune U6a7a1a
Marie Andree Guyon T2c1d-T152C!
Francoise Gaudet J1b2

Y DNA haplogroups
Philip Mius D'Entremont E-V13
Denis Gaudet J-M172




I read the following about my forefather Abraham Dugas


We found a descendent of Abraham Dugas to do a DNA test. All men who descend from Abraham Dugas of Acadia will carry the same DNA genetic signature.

The DNA test participant was Jean Jacques Dugas of Montreal and the results place Dugas men into Haplogroup J2. This is the same Haplogroup as the Dugas dit Labreche family but the DNA also shows the 2 ancestors were not related. J2 is very rare among French Canadians, found in only 5%. It is a haplogroup that is most frequent today in the Middle East and to a lesser degree in the Mediterranean. It is very common among Jewish people today, actually the most frequent haplogroup at about 30%. It was for this reasoning that we had the testing done. First, the surname Duga is common among eastern european Jews. One such Duga even has theorized his family line escaped the Spanish inquisition. Second, his given name was Abraham, which is a common Jewish given name. Third, his mother's name seems to have been Cassonne or Carsonne but neither name seems to exist in records. However, the surname Carcassonne does and it was often a Jewish surname in the south of France during those times. It is found very frequently in the Jewish records from Avignon, right next door to where we find the highest frequency of Dugas' today in France, Gard. The Dugas men have very few close genetic links, the closest being a man from Hama, Syria. Both the Dugas and Dugas Labreche families carry a genetic signature quite different from that of their other French Canadian peers.

This DNA result does not prove Abraham Dugas or Jean Ducas/Dugas dit Labreche were of Jewish ancestry, but it is very strongly supportive data for any theory that he was.
https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/dugas/549/



I found out that Dugas dit Labreche’s Y DNA haplogroup is J2a4h2 too. It says J2a4h, but it is an outdated assignment. Dugas dit Labreche Y DNA has the J-L25 which means that it’s J2a4h2 aka J-L25.



the site says the following:


Y-DNA Haplogroup J2a4h M172+ M410+ L24+(M530+) L25+ L231+


Recent testing on the Dugas dit Labreche family and on a descendent of Abraham Dugas, the Acadian ancestor of many Dugas in North America, showed both men were unrelated, even though they shared the same surname, but that both men carried a fairly rare genetic signature indicating Haplogroup J2a. All men who have the M172 mutation and the downstream M410 mutation, indicating Haplogroup J2a are very distantly related to one man who lived in the Middle East over 10,000 years ago. Halplogroup J2 is quite rare among French Canadians, about 83% of them belonging to Haplogroup R1B or I. About 4% of participants in the French Heritage DNA project showed a haplogroup assignment of J2. Haplogroup J2 is most frequent today in the Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean. In Iraq about 50% of men are in Haplogroup J, half of which in J2. In Lebanon, Turkey, Cyprus, Crete, and areas of Southern Italy, Haplogroup J2 is found in about a quarter of the population. Both Dugas ancestors were from the border region with Spain and it should be noted that Sephardic Jewish populations carry a very high percentage of Haplogroup J2, 29% and Haplogroup J2 is the most frequent haplogroup in Jewish populations overall. Jean Ducas dit Labreche was from the Basque country and a recent DNA study on the remains of 30 Basques from the 7th Century, showed Haplogroup R1b and I were the only haplogroups present. Haplogroup J2 did not appear to be present in the region at that time. Currently, researchers are looking at specific subclades of Haplogroup J2 which show distinct geographical spreads. Research is in its' primary stages, but the DNA subclade, L24 or M530 (rs35248080) and L25 (rs34534058) w DYS 445=10 in which descendents of Jean Ducas dit Labreche fall into, seems to have a geographic tendency in present day populations in the Middle East, specifically Iran and Lebanon. Most recently a new SNP, L231 was discovered through Y chromosome testing in a Dugas Labreche DNA sample. A C-G transition at position 13524835 of the Y chromosome was noted and to date, this mutation has only been found in men from the Dugas dit Labreche family.

Looking at M530, the mutation found in the Dugas dit Labreche Family, its presence in Europe is very rare. Highest frequencies for this paternal marker are found in Iran (up to 17.6%), followed by Lebanon (12%). J2a3h2 (J2a4h2) M530 Distribution from Semino 2012:


Did Jean Ducas descend from the Morisco or Sephardic Populations expelled from Spain?


Although it is difficult to attach a recent ancestry based soley on a DNA result, it does seem quite likely that Jean Ducas may have descended from Sephardic or Morisco populations expelled from Spain as a result of the Spanish inquisition. The map on the left, shows one wave of emmigration from Aragon in 1610. This was an emmigration largely of converted muslims into France and to the Ottoman Empire. Henry the IV of Bearn granted entry of 22,000 Mudejar's (Morisco's) from Aragon, charging 10 reales per person. What is important to note is the routes they took to enter France. 12,000 Entered through the Somport Pass. Saint Pierre d'Oloron lies at the head of this pass. Another 10,000 entered France via Roncesvalles-Saint Jean Pied du Port. Although many of these emigrants moved on and settled north of the Dordogne, many also settled in Bearn and the Pays Basque. There were many thousands more entering via the ports at Saint Jean de Luz and Bayonne, and much more illegal land migration over the Pyrenees. Oloron did have Jewish and Morisco communities at the time of our ancestor's birth as well as strong commercial links to the Moors and Sephardic populations of Aragon, specifically in the textile trade. We also see the surname Ducha and Ducas present in the village of Cascante and Tudela, Navarra as well as in Oloron. Records for the surname Ducas have been found in Oloron, Saint Jean de Luz, Tudela and Cazeres on the road between Tarbes and Toulouse. The son of a Marguerite Ducas, Jean Bourdin, from Le Mas d'Azil, near Toulouse is registered leaving France in 1686 to reside in the Levant. He left the port of Marseille for Tripoli, Syria (now Lebanon). This record is registered with the Chamber of Commerce in Marseille.

Today, Haplogroup J2 is present in 7.8% of Bearnaise men. What is clear is that the semi independent regions along the border of France and Spain did receive a boost in populations as a result of all sorts of religious persecutions. It is also quite possible our ancestor's moved into Bearn from the Languedoc (southern France) as a result of Huguenot persecution in the 16th century or Jewish Persecution in the 14th century. During the 16th century France was in the middle of the Wars of Religion, largely between protestants and catholics. Bearn was one region of refuge for protestants who had been displaced by these wars. In either case, it appears our ancestor could have been a recent arrival into Bearn, coming from the Languedoc or from Spain. This would explain why the surname Ducas and its phonetical equivalent, Ducha, were quite rare in the region and are now, all but gone.


Sephardic Migration into France

During the Spanish inquisition period, large numbers of Sephardic and Morisco communities settled in Southern France. They settled in Saint Jean de Luz, Bayonne, Biarritz, Bidache, Labastide Clairance, Tarbes, Toulouse, Marseille, Bordeaux and La Rochelle. They lived as new christians, but many returned to their faith openly in France or moving on to the Netherlands and points east. Do the seemingly elevated levels of DNA haplogroups J2 and E3b in south western France represent the descendents of this Sephardic Migration? In part, quite likely, but Haplogroup J2 and E3b began to arrive in France before the idea of "France" was even dreamed of. Likely even before the Phoenicians, there was some settlement of Middle Eastern peoples in the Mediterranean areas of France. The Greek and Phoenician presence also brought J2 into France and of course the Roman period also would have been a major contributor of Haplogroup J2 into what is today, France. So although, rare, Haplogroup J2 can be found in local populations throughout France and Spain.


DNA Mutation Rates observed in the Dugas Labreche DNA lines

Recent testing on 2 lines of the Dugas dit Labreche family noted higher mutation rates than rates generally used in calculating a Time to Most a Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA). The accepted rates, 0.002 to 0.0024 are only about half of the rates observed when comparing 2 lineages in the Dugas Labreche family. 2 Participants, both descended from Jean Ducas, married in 1708, with a total of 17 transmission events (births) down both lines combined, observed mutations of one step on 5 different markers. The markers, DYS 607, DYS 576, CDYa, DYS 438 and DYS 534 show individually varying mutation rates of their own, with DYS 438 being a very slow moving marker. All told, the overall 67 marker mutation rate observed in our comparison was 0.0044. Many test participants have also noted higher mutation rates similar to those observed in our line and it is generally considered that these rates vary from lineage to lineage and also possibly, from time period to time period.

https://dugas.weebly.com/dna.html


I find my British Colonial American Walker family line and the French Canadian Dugas dit Labreche family line sharing J-L25 in common very interesting.

Glaucus
06-10-2021, 09:58 PM
I'd take what Maciamo says about J-L70 with a grain of salt. His site is incredibly outdated - you'd find more useful and relevant information here.

He traditionally attributed J-L70 to being an Italic marker. It is most certainly not.

What appears clear, at least to me, is that J-L70 originated somewhere between the Levant and Anatolia in the Middle East. It likely principally spread throughout the Middle East, and only then made its way to Europe - likely via the Romans as the dominant source, who continued to spread it throughout continental Europe. However, J-L70's main growth period occurred long before the Romans, between 1400 BCE and 1100 BCE, and so it is within the civilizations of this time frame that we are looking for a culture responsible for its diversification of branches.

I do take what Maciamo says about J-L70 with a grain of salt.
I wonder why he focuses on it being an Italic marker.

I have been reading your posts about J-L70 here and in eupedia, and I was quite fascinated. Because my maternal grandmother's father belonging to the Y DNA J-L70 branch, I was very interested in what you shared. It all makes sense to me. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate it.
I have no doubts that J-L70 is a Middle Eastern subclade.
I just wondered how it got into the British gene pool.


I would love to read any opinions that you have about my maternal 6th Great Grandfather William Walker' Y DNA J-PH3125 and my paternal 10th/11th Great Grandfather Abraham Dugas' Y DNA J-Y25793 and what you think what their ancestral origins were.
I find that both William and Abraham's Y DNA are of the J2a subclade branches to be interesting. I find that both my Walker ancestors' Y DNA and Jean Dugas dit Labreche Y DNA are of the J-L25 branch to be even more interesting.
I am definitely very open to the possibility that my 10th/11th Great Grandfather Abraham Dugas had Sephardic Jewish ancestry. The stuff that I read about him and the Y DNA findings/matches seem to support it.

My Walker ancestors Y DNA branches are
L70
Z435
CTS3601
PF5456
FGC54172
PH3125


BTW...I am very sorry about how you were being addressed by one of the moderators in eupedia.
She was being very condescending.
You have very good information to share.

J.delajara
06-10-2021, 10:30 PM
correction to my mistake
Abraham was my 10th/11th Great Grandfather
He was married to my 10th/11th Great Grandmother Marguerite Louise Doucet whose mitochondrial DNA haplogroup is T2b7a2.
they're ancestors of thousands of people with Acadian ancestry too
Acadians are so highly recent endogamous that I believe all people with Acadian ancestry are related to each other through some shared 17th Century
My 10th/11th Great Grandmother Margeurite's mitochondrial DNA haplogroup is T2b7a2.


I notice some of my other Acadian founding ancestors had haplogroups that weren't typical of French people

mitochondrial DNA haplogroups
Radegonde Lambert X2b4
Edmee Lejeune U6a7a1a
Marie Andree Guyon T2c1d-T152C!
Francoise Gaudet J1b2

Y DNA haplogroups
Philip Mius D'Entremont E-V13
Denis Gaudet J-M172




I read the following about my forefather Abraham Dugas


We found a descendent of Abraham Dugas to do a DNA test. All men who descend from Abraham Dugas of Acadia will carry the same DNA genetic signature.

The DNA test participant was Jean Jacques Dugas of Montreal and the results place Dugas men into Haplogroup J2. This is the same Haplogroup as the Dugas dit Labreche family but the DNA also shows the 2 ancestors were not related. J2 is very rare among French Canadians, found in only 5%. It is a haplogroup that is most frequent today in the Middle East and to a lesser degree in the Mediterranean. It is very common among Jewish people today, actually the most frequent haplogroup at about 30%. It was for this reasoning that we had the testing done. First, the surname Duga is common among eastern european Jews. One such Duga even has theorized his family line escaped the Spanish inquisition. Second, his given name was Abraham, which is a common Jewish given name. Third, his mother's name seems to have been Cassonne or Carsonne but neither name seems to exist in records. However, the surname Carcassonne does and it was often a Jewish surname in the south of France during those times. It is found very frequently in the Jewish records from Avignon, right next door to where we find the highest frequency of Dugas' today in France, Gard. The Dugas men have very few close genetic links, the closest being a man from Hama, Syria. Both the Dugas and Dugas Labreche families carry a genetic signature quite different from that of their other French Canadian peers.

This DNA result does not prove Abraham Dugas or Jean Ducas/Dugas dit Labreche were of Jewish ancestry, but it is very strongly supportive data for any theory that he was.
https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/dugas/549/



I found out that Dugas dit Labreche’s Y DNA haplogroup is J2a4h2 too. It says J2a4h, but it is an outdated assignment. Dugas dit Labreche Y DNA has the J-L25 which means that it’s J2a4h2 aka J-L25.



the site says the following:


Y-DNA Haplogroup J2a4h M172+ M410+ L24+(M530+) L25+ L231+


Recent testing on the Dugas dit Labreche family and on a descendent of Abraham Dugas, the Acadian ancestor of many Dugas in North America, showed both men were unrelated, even though they shared the same surname, but that both men carried a fairly rare genetic signature indicating Haplogroup J2a. All men who have the M172 mutation and the downstream M410 mutation, indicating Haplogroup J2a are very distantly related to one man who lived in the Middle East over 10,000 years ago. Halplogroup J2 is quite rare among French Canadians, about 83% of them belonging to Haplogroup R1B or I. About 4% of participants in the French Heritage DNA project showed a haplogroup assignment of J2. Haplogroup J2 is most frequent today in the Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean. In Iraq about 50% of men are in Haplogroup J, half of which in J2. In Lebanon, Turkey, Cyprus, Crete, and areas of Southern Italy, Haplogroup J2 is found in about a quarter of the population. Both Dugas ancestors were from the border region with Spain and it should be noted that Sephardic Jewish populations carry a very high percentage of Haplogroup J2, 29% and Haplogroup J2 is the most frequent haplogroup in Jewish populations overall. Jean Ducas dit Labreche was from the Basque country and a recent DNA study on the remains of 30 Basques from the 7th Century, showed Haplogroup R1b and I were the only haplogroups present. Haplogroup J2 did not appear to be present in the region at that time. Currently, researchers are looking at specific subclades of Haplogroup J2 which show distinct geographical spreads. Research is in its' primary stages, but the DNA subclade, L24 or M530 (rs35248080) and L25 (rs34534058) w DYS 445=10 in which descendents of Jean Ducas dit Labreche fall into, seems to have a geographic tendency in present day populations in the Middle East, specifically Iran and Lebanon. Most recently a new SNP, L231 was discovered through Y chromosome testing in a Dugas Labreche DNA sample. A C-G transition at position 13524835 of the Y chromosome was noted and to date, this mutation has only been found in men from the Dugas dit Labreche family.

Looking at M530, the mutation found in the Dugas dit Labreche Family, its presence in Europe is very rare. Highest frequencies for this paternal marker are found in Iran (up to 17.6%), followed by Lebanon (12%). J2a3h2 (J2a4h2) M530 Distribution from Semino 2012:


Did Jean Ducas descend from the Morisco or Sephardic Populations expelled from Spain?


Although it is difficult to attach a recent ancestry based soley on a DNA result, it does seem quite likely that Jean Ducas may have descended from Sephardic or Morisco populations expelled from Spain as a result of the Spanish inquisition. The map on the left, shows one wave of emmigration from Aragon in 1610. This was an emmigration largely of converted muslims into France and to the Ottoman Empire. Henry the IV of Bearn granted entry of 22,000 Mudejar's (Morisco's) from Aragon, charging 10 reales per person. What is important to note is the routes they took to enter France. 12,000 Entered through the Somport Pass. Saint Pierre d'Oloron lies at the head of this pass. Another 10,000 entered France via Roncesvalles-Saint Jean Pied du Port. Although many of these emigrants moved on and settled north of the Dordogne, many also settled in Bearn and the Pays Basque. There were many thousands more entering via the ports at Saint Jean de Luz and Bayonne, and much more illegal land migration over the Pyrenees. Oloron did have Jewish and Morisco communities at the time of our ancestor's birth as well as strong commercial links to the Moors and Sephardic populations of Aragon, specifically in the textile trade. We also see the surname Ducha and Ducas present in the village of Cascante and Tudela, Navarra as well as in Oloron. Records for the surname Ducas have been found in Oloron, Saint Jean de Luz, Tudela and Cazeres on the road between Tarbes and Toulouse. The son of a Marguerite Ducas, Jean Bourdin, from Le Mas d'Azil, near Toulouse is registered leaving France in 1686 to reside in the Levant. He left the port of Marseille for Tripoli, Syria (now Lebanon). This record is registered with the Chamber of Commerce in Marseille.

Today, Haplogroup J2 is present in 7.8% of Bearnaise men. What is clear is that the semi independent regions along the border of France and Spain did receive a boost in populations as a result of all sorts of religious persecutions. It is also quite possible our ancestor's moved into Bearn from the Languedoc (southern France) as a result of Huguenot persecution in the 16th century or Jewish Persecution in the 14th century. During the 16th century France was in the middle of the Wars of Religion, largely between protestants and catholics. Bearn was one region of refuge for protestants who had been displaced by these wars. In either case, it appears our ancestor could have been a recent arrival into Bearn, coming from the Languedoc or from Spain. This would explain why the surname Ducas and its phonetical equivalent, Ducha, were quite rare in the region and are now, all but gone.


Sephardic Migration into France

During the Spanish inquisition period, large numbers of Sephardic and Morisco communities settled in Southern France. They settled in Saint Jean de Luz, Bayonne, Biarritz, Bidache, Labastide Clairance, Tarbes, Toulouse, Marseille, Bordeaux and La Rochelle. They lived as new christians, but many returned to their faith openly in France or moving on to the Netherlands and points east. Do the seemingly elevated levels of DNA haplogroups J2 and E3b in south western France represent the descendents of this Sephardic Migration? In part, quite likely, but Haplogroup J2 and E3b began to arrive in France before the idea of "France" was even dreamed of. Likely even before the Phoenicians, there was some settlement of Middle Eastern peoples in the Mediterranean areas of France. The Greek and Phoenician presence also brought J2 into France and of course the Roman period also would have been a major contributor of Haplogroup J2 into what is today, France. So although, rare, Haplogroup J2 can be found in local populations throughout France and Spain.


DNA Mutation Rates observed in the Dugas Labreche DNA lines

Recent testing on 2 lines of the Dugas dit Labreche family noted higher mutation rates than rates generally used in calculating a Time to Most a Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA). The accepted rates, 0.002 to 0.0024 are only about half of the rates observed when comparing 2 lineages in the Dugas Labreche family. 2 Participants, both descended from Jean Ducas, married in 1708, with a total of 17 transmission events (births) down both lines combined, observed mutations of one step on 5 different markers. The markers, DYS 607, DYS 576, CDYa, DYS 438 and DYS 534 show individually varying mutation rates of their own, with DYS 438 being a very slow moving marker. All told, the overall 67 marker mutation rate observed in our comparison was 0.0044. Many test participants have also noted higher mutation rates similar to those observed in our line and it is generally considered that these rates vary from lineage to lineage and also possibly, from time period to time period.

https://dugas.weebly.com/dna.html


I find my British Colonial American Walker family line and the French Canadian Dugas dit Labreche family line sharing J-L25 in common very interesting.

Thanks for all the information. I arrived to genetics, first of all because I've been always interested in genealogy, so for me is quite interesting all the information you are giving. Regarding the Moriscos migration to France, although it could be a possibility I think is not the only way to look for your deep ancestry, specially because we have reliable family records from the second half of the XVI th. century, and at least you would have some documental trace to follow that clue. If your family is mostly from Avignon in Provence, a Mediterranean path for your ancestors seams to me more possible, Phoenicians, Greek, Jews, romans, among others. Best Regards

Glaucus
06-11-2021, 12:56 AM
I was looking at the list that Supreme compiled


My Walker ancestors Y DNA branches shared with people in Middle East/North Africa and Jews


L70 - found in Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Armenia, Algeria, Palestinian Territories, Egypt, Turkmenistan, Georgia, Iran, Bahrain
Jews in Romania, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Germany, Austria, Czech Republic, Hungary, Dominican Republic, Spain, Italy, Greece, Puerto Rico, Portugal, Scotland, Denmark, Mexico, Wales, Colombia

Z435 - found in Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Algeria, Palestinian Territories, Egypt, Georgia, Bahrain
Jews in Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Germany, Spain, Puerto Rico, Mexico

CTS3601 - found in Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Algeria, Palestinian Territories, Egypt, Georgia, Bahrain
Jews in Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Germany, Spain, Puerto Rico, Mexico

PF5456 - found in Turkey, Armenia
Jews in Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Germany, Spain, Puerto Rico, Mexico

FGC54172 -

PH3125 -



I definitely have come to the conclusion that my Colonial British Virginian maternal 6th Great Grandfather William Walker had a subclade that was not typically British nor even typically European
it seemed to be Middle Eastern

Glaucus
06-11-2021, 06:11 PM
I was checking out the Dugas Y DNA project forum that I have been posting in

Dugas Y DNA project forum administrator David Dugas told me that J2a4h2 (L25) has an origin in Iran (grugni 2012). He also told me that J-PF5456 is likely Levantine in origin but does have a presence in Italy.
He reported that descendants of Abraham Dugas are sharing SNP J-Y25793 with 1 Druze from Lebanon and 1 Mizrahi Jewish participant from Iran. There is also a Jewish sephardic from Tunisia and Italian sample predicted in this cluster.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/dugas/activity-feed

I noticed that descendant of my William Walker Y DNA results are included in the Dugas Y DNA project. His Y DNA is still listed as J-PH3125. They are listed as ungrouped near the bottom. Abraham Dugas Y DNA is now refined to J-Z15977.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Dugas?iframe=ycolorized

This is Walker Y DNA project results.
My maternal 6th Great Grandfather William Walker's descendants results are listed under GR-26
place of origin is listed as England
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Walker%20DNA%20Project%20mtDNA%20Results?iframe=yr esults

Glaucus
06-12-2021, 04:21 AM
father nor his side of the family.
I did 23andme testing back in 2011, and Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry was confirmed by ancestry composition and matches that my Great Grandmother Ruth was an Ashkenazi Jew. One of my Jewish matches helped me learn that my Great Grandmother's Ruth's parents were immigrants from Romania and Latvia.
Back in 2013, I connected with my maternal grandmother's side of the family. My mother's long lost sister confirmed the things that I learned about Great Grandma Ruth.
A year later, I connected with my father's side of the family. It was just my paternal grandmother's side. I met my father's only surviving sibling who was his much younger maternal half sister. I met my cousins. I still don't know my paternal grandfather's side at all. I don't know his parents' names.
I have learned a lot about my ancestral roots throughout the years through Genetics and Genealogy. I have accounts at 23andme, Ancestry, FamilyTreeDNA, and MyHeritage.
Yeah....I grew up not knowing that I had Jewish ancestry.
I grew up thinking that my maternal grandmother's ancestry was English, German, French, and Italian.
Instead, I find out that her ancestry was Ashkenazi Jewish on her mother's side and English, Scottish, German, Irish, Swiss, Welsh, Dutch, and Frisian on her father's side
I am very open to possibilities that I could have other types of ancestry including Sephardic Jewish, Italian, Scandinavian, Eastern European. I still have many genealogical brickwalls.


This some brief info about countries with Jews in ancient times and Middle Ages

Malta - Malta, a European island nation located in the Mediterranean Sea, is one of the world's smallest yet most densely populated countries. The history of Jews in Malta may date back more three thousand years.
The history of the small Jewish Community of Malta goes back to the arrival of the Semitic Phoenician settlers almost three thousand five hundred years ago. It is believed that they were accompanied by Israelite mariners from the seafaring tribes of Zevulon and Asher.
At the time in the city of Tyre lived Princess Jezebel, who in 906 BCE married the Jewish Sultan Omri’s Ohab. After this marriage relations between the Jews and the Phoenicians grew so warm and cordial that they began to sail the seas and occupy various lands together. Some of them stayed in our islands.
We have evidence that at the time the Phoenicians were occupying Malta, the first Jews landed on Gozo and there they left behind the first signs of their presence. You can find this near the inner apse of the southern temple of Ggantija in Xaghra, one cannot fail to notice that on the ground under your feet is scratched the first Jewish evidence on Gozo.
This Jewish evidence is an inscription in the Phoenician alphabet, discovered and made known in 1912 by Ms N. Erichson and Ms. R. Cleveland. This inscription is in two lines and has ten words: seven in the first line and three in the second. Translated this inscription reads: "To the love of our Father Jahwe."
On the other hand the discovery of carved menorahs (candlesticks with seven branches) and Hellenistic inscriptions in a number of Jewish catacombs at Rabat and Tabja attests to a community living here in Grecian and Roman times.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/malta-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Iraq - The Jewish community of Iraq was one of the most ancient and storied of the Jewish diaspora. Jews came to the area after the destruction of the First Temple (586 B.C.E.) - and maybe even 10 years earlier with the exile of Jehoiachin. They integrated into their land of captivity and took part in its economic and cultural development.
The Jews of Babylonia, who had suffered from persecutions at the end of the rule of the Persian Sasanid dynasty, welcomed the Arab conquest of the land, which became known as Iraq.
The legal status of the Jews, as dhimmīs, was defined by the Shari'a (the Islamic Law), under which they had certain rights including the right to worship and to administer their own religious law. On the other hand they were required to pay the jizya (poll tax) in exchange for protection by the Islamic rulers. They were also exempted from serving in the Muslim armies.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/iraq-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Iran - The Jewish community of Iran is one of the oldest in the Diaspora with its roots reaching back to the 6th century B.C.E., the time of the First Temple. Jewish history in the pre-Islamic period of Iran is intertwined with that of neighboring Babylon. Jewish colonies were scattered from centers in Babylon to Persian provinces and cities such as Hamadan and Susa. The books of Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Daniel give a favorable description of the relationship of the Jews to the official government and court.
The earliest report of a Jewish population in Iran goes back to the 12th century. It was Benjamin of Tudela who claimed that there was a population of about 600,000 Jews. This number was later reduced to 100,000 in the Safavid period (1501–1736), and it further diminished to 50,000 at the beginning of the 20th century, as reported by the Alliance Israélite Universelle (AIU) emissaries in Iran. The drastic decrease in number was the result of persecution, forced conversions, Muslim laws of inheritance (which encouraged conversion and allowed the convert to inherit the properties of his Jewish family), and massacres. These problems continued at least up to the Constitutional Revolution in Iran (1905–09).
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/iran-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Turkey - The Republic of Turkey, a transcontinental country located mostly on Anatolia in Western Asia and East Thrace in Southeastern Europe, has a Jewish history dating back possibly to the 4th century B.C.E.
The history of the Jews in Anatolia, however, started many centuries before the migration of Sephardic Jews. Remnants of Jewish settlement from the 4th century B.C.E. have been uncovered in the Aegean region, where Jews lived and traded in the ancient cities of Ephesus, Sardis, Pergamon, and Smyrna (renamed Izmir by the Turks). The historian Josephus Flavius relates that Aristotle "met Jewish people with whom he had an exchange of views during his trip across Asia Minor."
Second and third century Greek inscriptions tell of a flourishing Jewish community in Smyrna. Ancient synagogue ruins have also been found in Sardis, near Izmir, dating from 220 B.C.E. and traces of other Jewish settlements have been discovered near Bursa, in the southeast and along the Aegean, Mediterranean and Black Sea coasts. A bronze column found in Ankara confirms the rights the Emperor Augustus accorded the Jews of Asia Minor.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/turkey-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Greece - There may have been isolated Jews living in Greek cities as far back as the Babylonian exile, but the first organized Jewish communities in Greece were established in approximately 400 B.C.E. The communities flourished during the reign of Alexander the Great and the subsequent Hellenistic period in around 300 B.C.E. Jewish immigrants flooded Hellenist cities along the Aegean Coast and the Greek mainland. The Greeks were polytheistic and maintained a glamorous lifestyle. While most Jews retained their monotheism, many wealthy Jews were attracted to Greek culture and created a class of assimilated, pro-Greek Jews.
According to Maccabees I 15:23 and also the Jewish historian Philo (c. 30 B.C.E.–c. 45 C.E.), in the years following the revolt the Jews built up communities in Sparta, Delos, Sicyon, Samos, Rhodes, Kos, Gortynia, Crete, Cnidus, Aegina, Thessaly, Boeotia, Macedonia, Aetonia, Attica, Argos, Corinth and Cyprus. When the Christian Saint Paul visited Greece during the first century C.E., he found well-established Jewish communities in Thessaloniki, Veroia, Athens, Corinth and other towns.
The Jews in these communities were called “Romaniot,” a Hellenized Latin term implying that they lived in the empire of the “second Rome,” meaning Greece. They developed customs now known as “minhag Romania.” They translated traditional Jewish prayers into Greek and recited them in Greek, although the prayers were written with Hebrew letters. The Jews’ political existence was tenuous and “they absorbed from the Greeks before the birth of Christ more than the Greeks absorbed from them” (Levi, p. 203).
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/greece-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Cyprus - Cyprus, the third largest Mediterranean island, is located south of Turkey and west of Syria and Lebanon. Jews first settled in Cyrpus possibly as early as the third century B.C.E. and they had close relationships with many of the other religious groups on the island and were seen favorably by the Romans.
The Jewish community prospered under Roman rule in Cyprus and there existed at least three synagogues in Golgoi, Lapethos and Constantia-Salamine. During this period, first Paul and then Barnabus, a native of Cyprus, preached Christianity in Cyprus and attempted to the Jews. In 117 C.E., under the leadership of Artemion, the Cypriot Jews participated in the great uprising against the Romans, which was eventually suppressed. As punishment, the Romans forbade Jews from setting foot on the island, however they returned soon after and Jewish residents continued to live there.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/cyprus-virtual-jewish-history-tour


Afghanistan - Afghanistan, also called Khorasan or Khurasan in medieval Muslim and Hebrew sources, has a Jewish history that may date back 2,700 years to the destruction of the Temple and the Babylonian exile. In 2013, a trove of ancient manuscripts discovered in former Taliban-controlled areas of Afghanistan provided the first physical evidence of a thriving Jewish community from the area that was more than a thousand years old.
“The history of Jews in this region goes back to way before the birth of the nation state of Afghanistan,” said Afghan academic Omar Sadr. “There are mentions in history of Jews living in this region, during the period of Cyrus the Great, the Persian emperor and his conquest of Babylon in 538.”
Early biblical commentators regarded Khorasan as a location of the Ten Lost Tribes. Today, several Afghan tribes including the Durrani, Yussafzai, Afridi and Pashtun believe they are decedents of King Saul. They call themselves Bani-Israel, like the Hebrew, B’nai Israel, meaning the children of Israel. Even some Muslim scholars and writers accept this.
The exiled Afghan Royal family also traces its roots to ancient Israel, the tribe of Benjamin specifically. As evidence, they cite Makhzan-i-Afghani, a chronicle published in 1635, in the time of King Jahangir by Khawaja Nimatullah of Herat.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/afghanistan-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Egypt - Egyptian Jewry traced its history back to the time of Jeremiah (Letter of Aristeas, 35), but it was not until the conquest of Alexander the Great in 332 B.C.E. that the second great wave of Jewish emigration to Egypt began. Alexander’s successors in Egypt, the Ptolemid dynasty, attracted many Jews early in their reign to settle in Egypt as tradesmen, farmers, mercenaries, and government officials. During their reign Egyptian Jewry enjoyed both tolerance and prosperity. They became significant in culture and literature, and by the first century C.E., accounted for an eighth of the population of Egypt. The majority of the Jews of Egypt lived, as the Greeks, in Alexandria, but there were also very many in the ehora, the provincial districts outside Alexandria.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/egypt-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Italy - Jews have lived in Italy without interruption from the days of the Maccabees until the present, through a period Probably preceded by individual Jews who visited Italy as traders, a Jewish embassy was dispatched to Rome in 161 B.C.E. by Judah Maccabee to conclude a political treaty with the Roman senate. It was followed by others sent by his brother Jonathan 15 years later, by Simeon in 139, and by Hyrcanus I in 133. In 139, either these emissaries or the other Jews living in Rome were apparently accused of conducting religious propaganda among the Roman population and expelled from the city. However, the decree soon became obsolete. Jewish prisoners taken by Pompey during his invasion of Ere? Israel, 63–61 B.C.E., were brought to Italy, but most were probably freed after a short time.
Julius Caesar, who believed the Jews represented a cohesive element in the Roman world, granted them certain exemptions to enable them to fulfill their religious duties. These exemptions were subsequently confirmed by most of the Roman emperors. Under Augustus, the number of Jews in the capital increased. In 19 C.E., during the reign of Tiberius, his minister Sejanus deported 4,000 Jewish youths to Sardinia to fight banditry, ostensibly to punish the Jews for having tried to defraud a woman of the Roman nobility. In fact, this was part of the policy to suppress the Oriental cults, and an edict was also issued ordering the Jews to leave Italy unless they abandoned their religious practices. Tiberius abrogated the measures after Sejanus' execution.
The growing friction between the Jews of Rome and the rising Christian sect led Claudius to rid Rome of both elements (49–50), but this time also the decree was short-lived. The Jewish revolt in Judea against the Romans ended in 70 with wholesale destruction and massacre and mass deportations of Jewish prisoners, a large number of whom were brought to Italy. According to later sources, 1,500 arrived in Rome alone, and 5,000 in Apulia. There too they attained freedom after a relatively short time, and many remained in Italy.of more than 21 centuries.
50,000 Jews in Italy during the first century of the Roman Empire, of whom more than half were concentrated in or around Rome.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/italy-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Syria - Dating back to biblical times, the Jewish community in Syria developed due to the proximity of the Jewish center in Palestine. Thus, according to Josephus, Ezra was commanded by the Persian Xerxes to appoint judges among the Jews "to hold court in all of Syria and Phoenicia " (Ant. 11:129). During the Second Temple period, the Jewish community apparently thrived, and even Roman governors of Syria were known to fall under the influence of the Jewish multitudes (cf. Philo, Legatio ad Gaium 355 – 367). Similarly, Josephus, in describing the tribulations of the Jews of Antioch, begins by stressing that "the Jewish race, densely interspersed among the native populations of every portion of the world, is particularly numerous in Syria, where intermingling is due to the proximity of the two countries. It was at Antioch that they especially congregated, possibly owing to the greatness of that city, but mainly because the successors of King Antiochus [Epiphanes, 175–164 B.C.E.] had enabled them to live there in security" (Wars 7:43). These Jews therefore flourished and were in a position to send costly offerings to the Temple at Jerusalem. The community was granted citizen rights equal to those of the Greeks (ibid.; cf. Apion 2:39, where these rights were granted by the founder of the city, Seleucus I Nicator), and this probably caused considerable envy of the Jews, which erupted into violence upon the declaration in Palestine of the great war against Rome (66 C.E.). Jewish influence was also felt in Damascus , where a majority of the female Greek population had strong leanings toward Judaism. This, however, did not prevent the Greeks of that city from slaughtering the entire Jewish population of 10,500 with the outbreak of the Jewish-Roman War (Wars 2:561).

Both the proximity to Ereẓ Israel and the great number of Syrian Jews subsequently convinced the rabbis to consider the area similar to Palestine in certain respects, and thus the halakhot "pertaining to the land" (מִצְווֹת הַתְּלוּיוֹת בָּאָרֶץ) were often applied to Syria. The Mishnah states that: "He who buys land in Syria is as one who buys in the outskirts of Jerusalem" (Hal. 4:11); "If Israelites leased a field from gentiles in Syria, R. Eliezer declares their produce liable to tithes and subject to the Sabbatical laws, but R. Gamaliel declares it exempt" (ibid. 4:7). Numerous tannaitic traditions discuss the particular halakhic status of Syria (cf. Tosef., Kelim BK 1:5, Ter. 2:9–13; Av. Zar. 2:8), and it appears that the rabbis differentiated between certain districts in Syria (Tosef. Peah 4:6). Nevertheless, the Jews of Syria probably considered themselves part of the Diaspora, and this would explain not only financial support of the Palestinian rabbis, but also the fact that a number of Syrian Jews were brought to Bet Shearim for burial.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/syria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Spain - The history of Spanish Jewry dates back at least two thousand years to when the Romans destroyed the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and brought Jews with them back to Europe.
While the area of modern-day Spain (formerly a collection of kingdoms which included Castile, Aragon, and Catalonia) was still controlled by the Holy Roman Empire, the Catholic Church convened at the Council of Elvira where they issued 80 canonic decisions, many of which were intended to ostracize the Jews from the general Spanish community. Canon 49, for example, prohibited Jews from blessing their crops, and Canon 50 refused communion to any cleric or layperson that ate with a Jew.
During the early 5th century, the Visigoths captured the Iberian Peninsula from Roman rule. While initially anti-Christian, the Visigoths later converted to Christianity and adopted many of the previous laws that existed during Roman rule.
Under the rein of Toledo III, children of mixed marriages were forcibly baptized and Jews were barred from holding public office. The situation got progressively worse and, in 613 CE, the Jews were ordered to convert to Christianity or face expulsion. Though many Jews chose to leave rather than convert, a large number of them still practiced Judaism in secret, a tradition that survivedfor centuries.
In 633, the Fourth Council of Toledo, convened to address the problem of crypto-Judaism and Marranos (Jews who converted to Christianity to escape persecution, yet observed Jewish law in private). While opposing compulsory baptism, the Council decided that if a professed Christian was determined to be a practicing Jew, his or her children were to be taken away and raised in monasteries or trusted Christian households.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/spain-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Portugal - Legends say that Jews first came to the Iberian peninsula during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar in the 6th century BCE or maybe even beforehand during the reign of King Solomon in 900s BCE. Jews lived and remain active in social and commercial life of the peninsula during the Visigoth and Muslim periods of occupation 5th -8th century C.E.
Several important Jewish communities were already active when the kingdom of Portugal was founded in the 12th century. During the first dynasty, Jews enjoy relative protection from the crown. The crown recognized the Jewish community as a distinct legal entity and appointed specific rulers to adjucate their cases. King Affonso Henriques (1139-85) entrusted Yahia ben Yahi III, a Jew, with the role of royal tax collector and supervisor; Yahia be Yahi III also became the first chief Rabbi of the Portuguese Jewish community. Yahia ben Yahi’s grandson, Jose ben Yahi was appointed High Steward of the Realm, by Henriques’ successor, King Sancho I (1185-1211).
Tensions arose between the Jewish community, who choose to remain faithful to their religion, and the local clergy and middle/lower classes. The clergy wanted to invoke restrictions of the Lateran Council against the Jews, but King Dinis (1279-1235) resisted and reassured the Jews that they did not have to pay tithes to the church.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/portugal-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Lebanon - Like most high mountains, Mt. Lebanon was imagined in early times to have been the abode of a god, Baal Lebanon, who is sometimes identified with Hadad. The area was inhabited by a number of different peoples in the prehistoric period. It appears to have been eventually settled by a West-Semitic population, later designated Canaanite and in Hellenistic sources Phoenician. The mountains of the Lebanon, rich in cedars and other coniferous trees, attracted the attention of the rulers of the treeless Nile Valley at an early date. As early as the fourth dynasty, the pharaoh Snefru probably sent to Byblos for cedars, firs, pines, and other trees. For 1,500 years the forests of the Lebanon supplied Egypt with wood for a number of purposes, including shipbuilding and construction of temples, sacred and funerary boats, and doors for palace gates. As the mountains became denuded, more and more harbors were opened by the Egyptians. From the 12th century B.C.E. onward the Assyrians competed with the Egyptians for the wood of Lebanon. Tiglath-Pileser I advanced into the region in order to obtain wood for building temples to the gods Anu and Adad. In 877 B.C.E. Ashurnaṣirpal II took firs and pines from the Lebanon back to Assyria. The devastation caused by Sennacherib among the cedars and firs is described in the Lord’s answer to Hezekiah’s prayer (II Kings 19:23). According to Isaiah, the trees of the Lebanon rejoiced when Sargon of Assyria passed away (14:8).
In general, the Lebanon marks the northern boundary of the Promised Land (Deut. 1:7; 3:25; 11:24; Josh. 1:4; 9:1). Its cedars are praised as the finest of trees (I Kings 5:13) and are contrasted with the bramble in Jotham’s parable (Judg. 9:15). Isaiah praises the cypress, the plane tree, and the larch of the region (60:13). In the Song of Songs and other books of the Bible the wild animals, waters, trees, flowers, wine, and snow of the Lebanon are described in glowing terms. When Solomon built the Temple, he was supplied with cedars from the Lebanon by his ally Hiram, king of Tyre (I Kings 5:15–24), who sent the logs in floats to a harbor near Jaffa (Tell Qasīla; II Chron. 2:15). The same procedure was repeated for the construction of the Second Temple, at which time the forests belonged to the king of Persia (Ezra 3:7). In Hellenistic and Roman times, the Lebanon was divided among the various Phoenician cities then largely Hellenized; it became part of the province of Syria, and from the third century a separate province, Phoenicia (Augusta Libanensis).
There is scant information about the existence of Jews between the seventh and 15th centuries, but small Jewish communities continued to exist in the area which is now Lebanon. The Arab author al-Balādhuri relates that the Caliph Mu’āwiya settled Jews in Tripoli . The Palestinian academy established its seat in Tyre in 1071. Benjamin of Tudela, in the 12th century, relates that the Jews lived in the same area as the Druze, with whom they traded and engaged in various crafts. In crusader times, the Lebanon was divided between the count of Tripoli and the king of Jerusalem, remaining in the hands of the crusaders almost until the end of the Latin kingdom (1291).
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/lebanon-virtual-jewish-history-tour

North Macedonia - The Jewish presence in Macedonia dates back to the first century BCE, where the ruins of an ancient synaogue can be seen in the city of Stobi. Today, there remain but 100 Jews in what is now North Macedonia.
The Jewish presence in Macedonia dates back to the first century, B.C.E., where the ruins of an ancient synagogue can be seen in the city of Stobi. Jews began to migrate to Macedonia during the Roman (Second Temple) Period. Persecution forced many Jews to flee from the lands controlled by the Romans, and a small number of Jews chose to make their home in Macedonia. The Jews of Macedonia were, and are, of Sephardic descent, and spoke the medieval language of the Sephardim, Ladino.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/macedonia-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Bulgaria - Bulgaria, an east Balkan republic located along the Black Sea, can trace its Jewish community back to the time of Caligula in the first century CE. Today, the Jewish population of Bulgaria is approximately 2,000 people.
A Jewish settlement is known to have existed in Macedonia in the time of Caligula (37–41 C.E.; Philo, Embassy to Gaius, par. 281). A late-second century Latin inscription found at the village of Gigen on the shore of the Danube (near Nikopol, the site of the ancient Roman settlement Oescus) bearing a menorah testifies to the existence of a Jewish community. The Latin inscription mentions the archisynagogos Joseph. Theodosius I’s decree to the governors of Thrace and Illyria in 379 shows that Jews were persecuted in these areas and synagogues destroyed.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/bulgaria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Albania - According to Albanian historian Apostol Kotani, Jews may have first arrived in Albania as early as 70 C.E. as captives on Roman ships that washed up on the country’s southern shores. Kotani believes that is was the descendants of these captives that would build the first synagogue in the southern port city of Sarande in the fifth century.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/albania-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Mauritania - There were Jews living in Mauritania - located between Senegal, Western Sahara, and the North Atlantic Ocean - as early as the fall of the biblical Jewish state when the Temple was destroyed in 70 BCE. At that point, many Jews spread throughout the Roman Empire, including the province of Mauritania. Divided into groups that paid taxes to the Romans, they raised cattle, farmed, and traded.
Under the Romans and Vandals (after 429), the Jews of Mauritania flourished. After the Byzantines gained control in 534, a series of restrictive laws were enacted agains the Jews, Arians, Donatists, and other dissenters.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/mauritania-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Hungary - Jews have lived in Hungary since the time of the Roman Empire, even before the Magyar (Hungarian) tribes arrived and conquered the land in the 9th century. Today, the Jewish population of Hungary is approximately 48,200 people, the sixth largest Jewish community in Europe.
The Jewish community grew in the second half of the 11th century due to large numbers of immigrants from Germany, Bohemia and Moravia. Jews settled in the towns of Buda, Esztergom, Sopron, Tata and Old Buda.
.https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/hungary-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Tajikstan - Bukharan Jews are an ethnic group in Central Asia, mainly in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. The term “Bukharan Jewry” was conceived by European travelers when the Jewish community lived under the rule of the Emir of Bukhara. The group's ancestry can be traced to an Israelite tribe exiled during the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century B.C.E., who made their way to Central Asia.
Bukharan Jews call themselves Isro'il or Yahudi and speak Bukhori or Judeo-Tajik, a distinct dialect of the Tajiki-Persian language that incorporated a number of Hebrew words. The group is concentrated in Tajikistan's capital, Dushanbe.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tajikistan-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Bahrain - According to Talmudic references, Jews have lived in Bahrain since ancient times. It was also recorded in Arabic sources that Jews lived in Hajar, the capital of Bahrain, in 630 C.E. and refused to convert to Islam when Muhammad sent an army to occupy the territory.
Benjamin of Tudela recorded in the 12th century that nearly 500 Jews lived in Qays and that a population of 5,000 resided in al-Qatifa. Benjamin also recounted that these Jews controlled the local pearl industry.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/bahrain-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Lebanon - There is scant information about the existence of Jews between the seventh and 15th centuries, but small Jewish communities continued to exist in the area which is now Lebanon. The Arab author al-Balādhuri relates that the Caliph Mu’āwiya settled Jews in Tripoli . The Palestinian academy established its seat in Tyre in 1071. Benjamin of Tudela, in the 12th century, relates that the Jews lived in the same area as the Druze, with whom they traded and engaged in various crafts. In crusader times, the Lebanon was divided between the count of Tripoli and the king of Jerusalem, remaining in the hands of the crusaders almost until the end of the Latin kingdom (1291).
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/lebanon-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Georgia - Georgian Jews have a 2,600-year history in the region.
Georgian-speaking Jewry is one of the oldest surviving Diaspora Jewish communities. The origin of Georgian Jews, also known as Gurjim or Ebraeli, is debated, but some claim they are descendants of the ten tribes exiled by Shalmaneser. Others say the first Jews made their way to southern Georgia after Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem in 586 B.C.E. after first fleeing to Babylonia.
The first Jews in Western Georgia arrived in the 6th century when the region was ruled by the Byzantine Empire. Approximately 3,000 of these Jews then fled to Eastern Georgia, controlled by the Persians, to escape severe persecution by the Byzantines. The existence of the Jews in these regions during this period is supported by archaeological evidence showing that Jews lived in Mtzheta, the ancient capital of the East Georgian state of Kartli.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/georgia-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Azerbaijan - Mountain Jews have lived in Caucasia for centuries and are said to be descendents of the Lost Tribes that left Israel after the destruction of the First Temple, in 587 BC. Their ancestors inhabited southern Azerbaijan, now the northwestern part of Iran, where they adopted the Muslim Tat language, but remained Jewish. The language has evolved to become a distinct Jewish dialect called Judeo-Tat or Judeo-Persian. After fleeing persecution in Persia, many Jews migrated to mountain villages on either side of the Black and Caspian Seas. At the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th, Mountain Jews lived as farmers and gardeners in their small, isolated communities. This historic way of life flourished in the towns of Privolnoe, Krasnaya Sloboda, and Vartashen.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/azerbaijan-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Romania - The territory of present-day Romania was known as Dacia in antiquity and Jewish tombstones dating from early times have been found there. The Jews may have come as merchants or in other capacities with the Roman legions that garrisoned the country from 101 C.E. and early missionary activity in Dacia may have been due to the existence of Jewish groups there.
The first real major wave of Jewish immigrants spread through Walachia (a Romanian principality founded around 1290) after they had been expelled from Hungary in 1367. In the 16th century some refugees from the Spanish expulsion came to Walachia from the Balkan Peninsula. A few served as physicians and even diplomats at the court of the sovereigns of Walachia. Since it was on the trade routes between Poland-Lithuania and the Ottoman Empire many Jewish merchants traveled through Moldavia, the second Romanian principality (in the northeast), founded in the middle of the 14th century. Some settled there and were favorably received by the rulers of this underpopulated principality.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/romania-virtual-jewish-history-tour

India - The Bene Israel ("Sons of Israel") lived primarily in the cities of Bombay (now Mumbai), Pune, Karachi (now in Pakistan), and Ahmadabad. The native language of the Bene Israel was Judeo-Marathi. They arrived in India nearly 2,100 years ago after a shipwreck stranded seven Jewish families from Judea at Navagaon near Alibag, just south of Mumbai.
The Bene Israel claim to be descended from Jews who escaped persecution in the Galilee in the 2nd century B.C.E. The Bene Israel resembled the non-Jewish Maratha people in appearance and customs, which indicates intermarriage between Jews and Indians. The Bene Israel, however, maintained the practices of Jewish dietary laws, circumcision, and observation of Sabbath as a day of rest.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/india-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Armenia - The Jewish community in Armenia can trace its roots back nearly 2,000 years to after the destruction of the First Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. Today, the Jewish population in Armenia is approximately less than 100 people.
The Jewish community of Armenia dates back almost 2,000 years. Many historians date the arrival of the first Jewish settlement in Armenia back to the destruction of the First Temple. During the conquest of King Tigranes II the Great, Tigranes brought with him 10,000 Jewish captives to Armenia when he retreated from Palestine, because of the Roman attack on Armenia (69 B.C.E.). By 360-370 C.E., there was a massive increase in Jewish Hellenistic immigration into Armenia; many Armenian towns became predominately Jewish. During this period, however, the Persian Shapur II began deporting thousands of Jews to Iran.
Halakhic studies never prospered in Armenia, although there are a few references to the region in Jewish Hellenistic sources. During Medieval times, most of Armenian Jewry vanished as a distinct entity in the region, although many historians believe they became a part of the Kurdish Jewry. There is an ancient Jewish cemetery located in the region of Vayots Dzor, in the city of Eghegis, south and west of Yerevan. There are more than 40 tombstones dating back to the 13th century, 16 tombstones with Hebrew and Aramaic inscriptions.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/armenia-virtual-jewish-history-tour

From the fifth to the third centuries B.C.E., the Carthaginian gold market was situated in Morocco. On this historical basis, an ancient legend relates that some five centuries before the Carthaginian expansion, in the days of Solomon and the Phoenicians, the Hebrews came to Sala (Chella) in the vicinity of Salé (Rabat) in order to purchase gold in large quantities. In another legend, it is related that Joab was sent to Morocco to fight the Philistines, who had been driven out of Canaan; an inscription describing this expedition is said to have existed near the present-day town of Zagora. Wadi Oued Draa and the region of Oufran (Ifran of the Anti-Atlas) are said to have been the sites of important Jewish settlements before the destruction of the Second Temple. The earliest epigraphic evidence on the presence of Jews in Morocco, however, comes from the second century C.E. It consists essentially of inscriptions on tombstones found in the ruins of the Roman town of Volubilis, between Fez and Meknčs , and another inscription discovered in Salé. The latter is in Greek, while one of the inscriptions of Volubilis is in Hebrew.

Morocco, like the remainder of the Maghreb, was one of the favorite territories for Jewish missionary activities. The Jews, together with those whom they succeeded in converting, appear to have originally been numerous and particularly powerful. The great Arabic historian of the 14th century, Ibn Khaldūn, names a number of large Moroccan Berber tribes who were converted to Judaism prior to the Arab conquest. These were the Fandalāwqa, Madyūna, Bahlūla, Ghiyāta, and Bazāz tribes. The capital of the last was also named Bazāz or Qulʿat-Mlahdī. It was completely inhabited by Jews and did not disappear until the 12th century. It was situated near the present-day town of Sefrou. Other tribes, such as the Barghwāṭa, were also heavily Judaized. Between 581 and 693 many Jews were compelled to leave Spain as a result of the persecutions of the Visigoth kings who, while forcing them to accept baptism, also adopted draconian measures against them. According to later traditions, thousands of Spanish Jews had settled in Africa by 693. It is told that these Jews, together with their Moroccan coreligionists, plotted to conquer or deliver Spain into the hands of the more tolerant Muslims (694). Some historians maintain that there were Jews among the Berber-Muslim invaders of Spain in 711.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/morocco-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Yemen - We do not know exactly how Jews came to settle in Yemen. According to Yemenite tradition, a group of well-off Jews left Jerusalem after they heard Jeremiah predict the destruction of the Temple in 629 BCE, 42 years before the destruction of the city. Historians believe that King Solomon's trading and naval networks brought Jews to Yemen from Judea around 900 BCE. The first evidence of Jewish presence in Yemen can be traced to the third century CE.
In the early part of Jewish settlement in Yemen, the Jewish presence in the country was very strong. Many Himyaties, who ruled at the time, converted to Judaism. Sometime after the third century CE, the Himyarite ruling family converted to Judaism, making Judaism the ruling religion. Jewish rule lasted until 525 CE, when the Christians from Ethiopia took over.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/yemen-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Tunisia - Tunisia has had a significant Jewish minority since at least Roman times.
A tradition among the descendants of the first Jewish settlers were that their ancestors settled in that part of North Africa long before the destruction of the First Temple in the 6th century BCE. Though this is unfounded, the presence of Jews there at the appearance of Christianity is attested by the Jewish monument found by the French captain Prudhomme in his Hammam-Lif residence in 1883. After the dissolution of the Jewish state, a great number of Jews were sent by Titus to Mauritania, and many of them settled in Tunis. These settlers were engaged in agriculture, cattle-raising, and trade. They were divided into clans, or tribes, governed by their respective heads, and had to pay the Romans a capitation tax of 2 shekels. Under the dominion of the Romans and (after 429) of the fairly tolerant Vandals, the Jewish inhabitants of Tunis increased and prospered to such a degree that African Church councils deemed it necessary to enact restrictive laws against them. After the overthrow of the Vandals by Belisarius in 534, Justinian I issued his edict of persecution, in which the Jews were classed with the Arians and heathens.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tunisia-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Ethiopia - Christianity spread through the Axum dynasty of Ethiopia in the 4th century CE. By the 7th century, however, Islam had surpassed Christianity and had separated Ethiopia from its Christian African neighbors.
Prior to this, the Beta Israel had enjoyed relative independence through the Middle Ages. Their reign was threatened in the 13th century CE under the Solomonic Empire, and intermittent fighting continuing for the next three centuries with other tribes.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ethiopia-virtual-jewish-tour


France - A Jewish presence existed in France during the Roman period, but the community mainly consisted of isolated individuals, rather than an established community. After the Roman conquest of Jerusalem, boats filled with Jewish captives landed in Bordeaux, Arles and Lyons. Archeological finds of Jewish objects with menorahs imprinted on them date back to the first through fifth century.
Jewish communities have been documented in 465 in Vannes (Brittany), in 524 in Valence and in 533 in Orléans. Jewish immigration increased during this period and attempts were made to convert the Jews to Christianity.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/france-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Germany - Evidence of Jews in the area now known as Germany dates back to the early 4th century; in the 1930s, a Jewish graveyard from that era was found in the city of Cologne. When the first Jews migrated to the “barbarian lands,” Christianity had not yet arrived in Western Europe, and the Roman Empire was still the continent’s dominant power. Little is known about the early German Jews, but by the 8th century, Jews were flourishing among the German tribes along the banks of the Rhine. The Jews, for the most part, lived in harmony with their newly Christian neighbors. Jews could hold public office, own land, and work in whatever industries they chose; they spoke the same languages and often had the same names as the Germans. Many Germans even converted to Judaism.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/germany-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Russia - Jews are believed to have first arrived in the Caucasus region in the seventh century.
In the seventh century many Jews from Greece, Babylonia, Persia, the Middle East, and Mediterranean area immigrated to the Caucasus and beyond. From the early Middle Ages, Jewish merchants (known in Hebrew as holkhei Rusyah – Russian travelers) traveled through the Slavic and Khazar lands on their way to India and China. During the first half of the eighth century, the Khazars converted to Judaism. The Khazar kingdom essentially became a new Jewish kingdom. Some scholars trace the origins of Ashkenazi Jews to the conversion of the Khazars. The influence of the Khazar conversions are significant enough to be a major topic of research for scholars today.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/russia-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Algeria - Resistance against the Arab invasion in the seventh century was organized first near Biskra and later in the Aurčs mountains, where the kāhina (an epithet meaning priestess), the “queen” of the Judeo-Berber tribe Jarawa, won brilliant victories. With the death of the kāhina in 693 came the collapse of Berber independence. Most of the Jarawa adopted Islam, others escaped to the west and south reinforcing the Jewish elements there. Oriental Jews, who followed in the wake of the Arab armies in large numbers, rebuilt the old destroyed communities of Algeria. The Jews in the urban centers, such as Mejana or Mesila, were Rabbanites; so also were the Jews in the capitals of the various Berber kingdoms – Ashir, Tahert (Tiaret), where the philologist R. Judah ibn Quraysh lived, Tlemcen, and Qalʿat Ḥammād, where R. Isaac Alfasi was probably born. These communities were in contact with the communities of Fez in the west and Kairouan in the east, and even with the geonim of Babylonia and Palestine. It is partly through them that the teachings of the academies of Sura and Pumbedita, and later of Kairouan, spread to Morocco, and from there to Spain. Thus, the influence of these communities on the intellectual and religious development of the Jews of Spain can be seen. The teachings of the sages were spread to the area north of the Sahara Desert from Gabčs, Tunisia, to Sijilmassa (in the Ziz Valley), Morocco, by traveling merchants. The Jewish tribes of the region of Wargha were Karaites. They were nomad warriors. Their descendants were called “Bahusim” and remained in the eastern part of Algeria up to modern times. In the tenth century, a Jew named Abu al-Faraj instigated an important revolt against the Zirid sovereigns of the Berber tribes in the Setif region. Defeated, he was tortured to death in 989.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/algeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Poland - There is no specific date that marks Jewish immigration to Poland. A journal account of Ibrahim ibn Jakub, a Jewish traveler, merchant and diplomat from Spain mentions Cracow and the First Duke of Poland, Mieszko I. More Jews arrived during the period of the first Crusade in 1098, while leaving persecution in Bohemia, according to the Chronicler of Prague. There is also archeological evidence, coins from the period with inscriptions in Hebrew, revealing that other Jewish merchants traveled to Poland in the 12th century. The coins may have belonged to 12th century Jewish traders, Holekhei Rusyah (travelers to Russia).
While persecution took place across Europe during the Crusades, in the 13th century, Poland served as a haven for European Jewry because of its relative tolerance. During this period, Poland began its colonization process. It suffered great losses from Mongol invasions in 1241 and therefore encouraged Jewish immigrants to settle the towns and villages. Immigrants flocked to Poland from Bohemia-Moravia, Germany, Italy, Spain and colonies in the Crimea. No central authority could stop the immigration. Refugees from Germany brought with them German and Hebrew dialects that eventually became Yiddish
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/poland-virtual-jewish-history-tour

United Kingdom - The Jewish experience in the United Kingdom [England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland] is one of the longest in the world. Anglo-Jewry faced increasing persecution from its entrance into England in 1066 until the expulsion of 1290. Once Jews returned in the 16th century, however, they became more and more integrated into society.
There were individual Jews living in England in Roman and Anglo-Saxon times (80-1066 A.D.), but not an organized community. When William the Conqueror arrived in England in 1066, he encouraged Jewish merchants and artisans from northern France to move to England. The Jews came mostly from France with some from Germany, Italy and Spain, seeking prosperity and a haven from anti-Semitism. Serving as special representatives of the king, these Jews worked as moneylenders and coin dealers. Over the course of a generation, Jews established communities in London, York, Bristol, Canterbury and other major cities. They generally lived in segregated areas by themselves. However, until 1177 only one Jewish cemetery was allowed to be established in London.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/united-kingdom-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Serbia - Serbia has a Jewish history that can be traced back to the 12th century. Today, the Jewish population in Serbia is approximately 1,400 people.
From the period of the 12th century C.E. until the mid-18th century, Jews in Serbia were generally treated well. They were traders mainly involved in selling salt. By the end of the Turkish rule over Serbia, Jewish tradesmen were largely responsible for the trade route between the northern and southern ends of the lands ruled by the Turks.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/serbia-virtual-jewish-history-tour

Emre Altug
06-13-2021, 08:35 AM
Here are the recent J-L70's (8 for now) from the Turkish study. Credits to Turkish DNA for ethnicity approximation !

RESEARCH ID GEDMATCH ID HAPLOGROUP ETHNICITY APPROX.
SRS8752298 LV4063625 J-CTS3601* Turk_Western_Central_Anatolia @ 4,463621(Kastamonu profile?)
SRS8752132 RR5038572 J-PF5456* Turk_Western_Black_Sea_(Kastamonu_&_Sinop) @ 4,191384
SRS8752699 WL5934974 J-Z2148* Turk_Western_Black_Sea_(Kastamonu_&_Sinop) @ 4,552659
SRS8752836 SE9316341 J-FGC58748* Turk_Greece @ 4,015943
SRS8752708 KM9545339 J-S11348* Turk_Bulgaria_South @ 3,820419
SRS8752241 RV5636107 J-FGC32685 Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 2,91827
SRS8752411 DF3645573 J-Y24651* %42 Albanian + %58 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_North_&_Ordu) @ 2,179675 (Balkan and Black Sea matches)
SRS8752148 RP4374184 J-PH185* %11 Pomak_Bulgaria + %89 Turk_Eastern_Black_Sea_(Rize_&_Trabzon) @ 2,090887

Emre Altug
06-13-2021, 08:47 AM
PLUS, here are the Z387+ L70-. Again, credits to Turkish DNA project for ethnicity approximation !

RESEARCH ID GEDMATCH ID HAPLOGROUP ETHNICITY APPROX.
SRS8752811 EA2633568 J-Z40011* Turk_East_Black_Sea @ 3,718831
SRS8752328 TE3891453 J-FGC35489* Turk_Southern_Central_Anatolia @ 4,189022

J.delajara
06-13-2021, 02:34 PM
PLUS, here are the Z387+ L70-. Again, credits to Turkish DNA project for ethnicity approximation !

RESEARCH ID GEDMATCH ID HAPLOGROUP ETHNICITY APPROX.
SRS8752811 EA2633568 J-Z40011* Turk_East_Black_Sea @ 3,718831
SRS8752328 TE3891453 J-FGC35489* Turk_Southern_Central_Anatolia @ 4,189022

Thanks a lot for the interesting information Emre.

Glaucus
06-16-2021, 07:34 AM
At Jewish.net, I was checking out info about J2a-L70-PF5456 which is a branch that my maternal 6th Great Grandfather William Walker had.

Jewish Y-DNA branch AB-045
This branch is fairly close to AB-046. Probably they were in Iberia or Italy and two persons went to the Ashkenazi countries.
Close means in this case: they have different branches below J-Z435, which is presently estmated at 3300ybp. Several of the descendants of Z435 are in Iberian countries, some in Italy.

This branch is in the J2a-group of Jewish Branches.
This branch is a member of the Ashkenazi branches
https://jewishdna.net/AB-045.html

L-24 Y DNA project
J-PF5456 at the top on page 2
William Walker 4th from the bottom
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-L24-Y-DNA?iframe=yresults

Glaucus
06-17-2021, 08:11 AM
Thanks again Supreeeme. I was aware about the numbers, I just wanted to add some further information, as far as I know, most of Yfull tests are also modern samples, unless they specify them as ancient. If you analyze small sample countries, such as Sweden, Norway and Denmark , you can also find L-70, which is quite strange, considering non of them shows eastern or southern origins, at least declared. This could be useful maybe for Mr. Perrine, considering his Norman past. Regarding Italy, most of the clades under L-70 includes people from different backgrounds and religions, including jewish of course, but not by majority.
Further ancient samples will help us.
Best Regards

Finding L-70 in Sweden, Norway, and Denmark is not quite strange if you consider that there are thousands of Jews that live in those countries.
Even if they don't show any Eastern or Southern origins through declaration, they can still have ancestry from Jews.
Even if they claim to not have any Jewish ancestry, they can still have Jewish ancestry.
Even if people's Ethnic Analysis don't show any Jewish ancestry, they can still have Jewish ancestry.
A lot of people don't know all their ancestors up to the 1700s.
Recombination of DNA might lead to certain whole DNA of particular ethnicities being completely gone. A person might have a Jewish 8th Great Grandparent from the 1700s , and it may not show in their DNA.

There are people that grew up not knowing that they have Jewish ancestry like my mother and me.
We didn't find out until 23andme testing back in 2011.
We started suspecting when we found out that my maternal grandmother's mother's name was Ruth Rosenthal on my maternal grandmother's birth certificate, and that was back in 1995.
23andme ancestry composition and matches confirmed our suspicions.
Surprisingly, we found out that Ruth Rosenthal's parents were from Romania and Latvia.
My mother grew up not knowing her mother nor her side of the family.

Just a few days, one of my maternal grandmother's paternal halfsisters told me that their father told that he has Jewish ancestors on his father's side. That's the first time that I have ever heard of my maternal grandmother's father having Jewish ancestry.



History of Jews in Sweden

While a number of Jews lived in Sweden, practicing their rituals in secret, a Jewish community was not officially established until the 1770s. Samson Efraim and his son visited Goteborg and Stockholm on business in 1702. More Jewish businessman came to Sweden because of the demands of the East Indian Company and, in 1733, Jews could visit auctions in Goteborg and a small Jewish community of eight individuals lived in Stockholm until 1734.

Aron Isak, a seal engraver from Germany, was the first Jew granted permission to live as a Jew in Sweden. He was first offered citizenship if he accepted Christianity; his response, “I would not change my religion for all the gold in the world” impressed the Lord Mayor of Stockholm, who advised Isak to make a legal protest to King Gustav III. The King subsequently granted him citizenship as the first Swedish Jew. He was allowed to bring some Jewish families, so there would be at least 10 Jewish men (the number needed to hold prayer services).

In 1775, the island of Marstrand, off the coast of the Goteborg, all foreigners could live on the island, including Jews. Five years later, the first Jewish family settled in Goteborg. In 1782, legislation was adopted allowing Jews to settle in Sweden without converting to Christianity.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/sweden-virtual-jewish-history-tour



History of Jews in Denmark

Denmark was the first of the Scandinavian countries where Jews were permitted to settle. Jews were first invited by King Christian IV, who sent a message on November 22, 1622, to the leaders of the Sephardi community in Amsterdam and Hamburg inviting Sephardi Jews to settle in the recently established township of Gluckstadt. Some Jews accepted this invitation and began trading and manufacturing operations there. Jews were also active in Denmark in the seventeenth century as financiers and jewelers to the royal family and members of the Danish royalty. Benjamin Mussafia, author of the Talmudic dictionary Musaf Ha-Arukh, was appointed physician to the royal family in 1646. His son-in-law Gabriel Milan became governor of the Danish West Indies in 1684.

Jewish communities existed in Schleswig and Holstein, then under Danish rule, from the beginning of the seventeenth century. Around this time many German Jews wished to come to Denmark; however, they had to produce royal authorization before entering the country. Rabbis, teachers, and other community leaders were permitted to practice in Denmark with the permission of the leaders of the community.

Members of Sephardi families such as Abenzur, Franco, Granada, De Lima, Meldola, De Meza, Moresco and Texeira de Mattos continued to engage in financial operations in Denmark during the 17th and 18th centuries, but gradually lost their mercantile significance in the state economy and their predominance in the Jewish community.

In 1782, there were 1,830 Jews in Denmark; 1,503 in Copenhagen.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/denmark-virtual-jewish-history-tour



History of Jews in Norway

As far back as the year 1000, the Norwegian king, Olav den Hellige, forbade everyone who was not Christian to live in Norway. It was only in the time of king Christian IV (late 16th century) that we find references to the Jews. The Jews in question were mainly those who in 1492 and 1498 were driven out of Spain and Portugal.

These Sephardi Jews first settled in the Netherlands and in Hamburg. In Norway, these were called “Portuguese-Jews.” Some of them were given special permission to enter Norway when no other Jews could. Those who were still in Norway at the beginning of the 19th century in most cases let themselves be baptized. The king, Christian IV, thought that the Jews could be helpful to his country but because of opposition from the clergy, he had to be satisfied with letting the Jews settle in duchies of Slesvig-Holstein. Jews had been permitted to live there from 1620. They were now granted freedom of religion and, in 1630. the king gave them permission to travel freely and engage in trade in Denmark and Norway. The Jews living in this area were not, as in many other countries, forced to live in ghettos or in special Jewish streets or wear clothes which would distinguish them as being Jewish. In 1641, the king extended his “protection” to include “Ashkenazi Jews,” from Eastern-, Central- and part of Western Europe.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/norway-virtual-jewish-history-tour


At MyHeritage,

My mother has the following matches in regards to Scandinavia with
both Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry
AND
assignments to the genetic community Eastern and Central Europe, mostly Poland, Germany, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus and Russia (Ashkenazi Jews in Eastern and in Central Europe, mostly in Poland, Germany, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus and Russia and their descendants in the United States, mostly in New York and some in England, Canada and Israel)


77 in Sweden
41 in Denmark
25 in Norway


and a lot of these people don't have some people from the 1700s,1800s listed in their family trees
a lot of them list Jewish ancestors born and living in Scandinavia in 1700s

harrimir
06-18-2021, 04:32 PM
Pardon, was the PH185* in Turkey the Pontic sample or the Nusayri(I'm assuming in Hatay region)?

Sorry, I think you answered this already, but the data is a bit difficult to read for me, could you explain the basic findings for the Ph185 and sub-branches?

Emre Altug
06-18-2021, 04:53 PM
Pardon, was the PH185* in Turkey the Pontic sample or the Nusayri(I'm assuming in Hatay region)?

Sorry, I think you answered this already, but the data is a bit difficult to read for me, could you explain the basic findings for the Ph185 and sub-branches?
No problems.

It's Pontic.

Nusayri is J-FGC32685.

SUPREEEEEME
06-18-2021, 04:53 PM
Pardon, was the PH185* in Turkey the Pontic sample or the Nusayri(I'm assuming in Hatay region)?

Sorry, I think you answered this already, but the data is a bit difficult to read for me, could you explain the basic findings for the Ph185 and sub-branches?

The J-PH185* sample is the Pontic one. When running the kit through Eurogenes K13, he's closest to Armenians at a distance of 5.77 - whereas the Turkish DNA Project had him as:
%11 Pomak_Bulgaria + %89 Turk_Eastern_Black_Sea_(Rize_&_Trabzon) @ 2,090887, which gives a better distance.

You'll notice he forms a clade with the Saudi on YFull. When checking the FTDNA Haplotree, we can see he forms an even deeper clade with a Dagestani (which makes sense, in my opinion), with the Saudi being Basal to them.

The sample at J-FGC32685 is Alawite/Nusayri (On Eurogenes K13 he is closest to Lebanese Muslims).

J Man
06-18-2021, 05:48 PM
The J-PH185* sample is the Pontic one. When running the kit through Eurogenes K13, he's closest to Armenians at a distance of 5.77 - whereas the Turkish DNA Project had him as:
%11 Pomak_Bulgaria + %89 Turk_Eastern_Black_Sea_(Rize_&_Trabzon) @ 2,090887, which gives a better distance.

You'll notice he forms a clade with the Saudi. When checking the FTDNA Haplotree, we can see he forms a clade with a Dagestani (which makes sense, in my opinion), with the Saudi being Basal to them.

The sample at J-FGC32685 is Alawite/Nusayri (On Eurogenes K13 he is closest to Lebanese Muslims).

Do you know of any other J2a Alawite samples as well?

SUPREEEEEME
06-18-2021, 06:19 PM
Do you know of any other J2a Alawite samples as well?

Unfortunately the only other one I know of is a J-L70 Syrian Alawite (not deeply tested).

Principe or leorcooper19 might know of more.

harrimir
06-18-2021, 07:37 PM
Dagestani Ph185?? Wow. I guess there's a lot of info that isn't on YFull. Could anyone perhaps screenshot or share that info from ftdna since their tree doesn't work for me at all?
If a pontic source and a dagestani are basal with the saudi, or close, that's a very.. significant find, yes?

And someone said there was a basal clade above L70 that was found as well?

SUPREEEEEME
06-18-2021, 07:58 PM
Dagestani Ph185?? Wow. I guess there's a lot of info that isn't on YFull. Could anyone perhaps screenshot or share that info from ftdna since their tree doesn't work for me at all?
If a pontic source and a dagestani are basal with the saudi, or close, that's a very.. significant find, yes?

And someone said there was a basal clade above L70 that was found as well?

This is the branch with the Dagestani:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J;name=J-FT406725 (it takes a while to load)

You can find the individual on the Dagestan Project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dagestan?iframe=yresults

The Turkish individual falls here as well. The Saudi is Basal to their branch. So J-PH185 splits into two branches, the large J-FGC24630, and the small J-FT20070.

As for their significance, I consider them to have a similar weight to the existing Saudi.

As for a Basal clade above L70, I assume you're referring to the, what was, J-Z387*. On FamilyTreeDNA, there is a Sephardic Jew who is J-Z387*. There is a Sephardic branch there present in Eastern Sephardic and North African Sephardic Jews (effectively a Levantine Basal). Recently a new kit was uploaded to YFull that falls there as well (so they have a branch sibling to J-L70 and J-FGC35503). No idea as to his origins:

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y197827/

So when looking at the live tree, the Sephardic Jew is Basal to that branch. So effectively, J-L70, J-FGC35503, and J-Y197827 all have Levantine Basal branches.