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SUPREEEEEME
02-21-2020, 06:58 PM
I have decided to create a thread to post my findings on where J-L70 is found in the MENA region and how many individuals I was able find.

A couple months back I decided to draw up a spreadsheet of J-L70 individuals from manually searching through loads of FamilyTreeDNA projects. From the data, it was most common in Jews, then Italians, then English people - which somewhat matched up with FamilyTreeDNA's Haplotree (minus Jews). Ultimately, I decided against doing anything with this spreadsheet, as I realised the Haplotree should have the exact information - but here we are (I'm only discussing MENA groups - but if anyone wants me to post the whole spreadsheet, just ask). In this spreadsheet, I explicitly acknowledged Jewish descent (Ashkenazi, Sephardi etc...).

I'm not going to post any kit numbers, but I do have them all on the spreadsheet. I explicitly checked that I had no duplicate kit numbers. Unfortunately there were some projects I could not access - oh well...
I'll disclose ethnicity/tribe etc... where possible

DISCLAIMER: If there are any errors, please let me know - and remember - I'm only human :)
Most are subclades under J-L70, where there is uncertainty/doubt, I disclose it.

THIS IS FAMILYTREEDNA ONLY

Iraq:
10 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-CTS3601 (Kurdish)
1 x J-CTS3601 (Arab)
1 x J-FGC24630
2 x J-CTS6061

Lebanon
5 x J-CTS3601

Saudi Arabia
1 x J-L70
1 x J-PH2838
1 x J-CTS3601

Jordan
1 x J-CTS3601

Syria
1 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-L70 (Alawite)
1 x J-FGC24630
1 x J-Y128867
1 x J-L70

Azerbaijan
1 x J-PH2725 (Saltak tribe)
1 x J-PH2725
1 x J-Z2177

Turkey
2 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC24630
1 x J-Z40004
1 x J-FT133466
2 x J-Z2177
1 x J-M137

Armenia
4 x J-L70
1 x J-PF5456
1 x J-Z435

Algeria
1 x J-CTS3601

Palestinian Territories
1 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-Z435

Egypt
1 x J-CTS3601

Turkmenistan
2 x J-L70
2 x J-L1021

Georgia
1 x CTS3601

Iran
1 x J-Z2177

Jews
*Important to note: mostly name/surname based. Many "Sephardic" surnames were googled for confirmation (if that means anything). If they were on a JewishDNA project (I'll specify), I assumed they were of Jewish origin (whether that's right or wrong). Assume Ashkenazi unless told otherwise.

Romania
1 x J-P244

Poland
1 x J-Z45813
5 x J-PF5456
1 x J-Z39496
5 x J-P244
1 x J-BY37767
2 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC6734
1 x J-L398
1 x J-L396

Ukraine
2 x J-BY268
3 x J-PF5456
6 x J-L70
1 x J-BY242
3 x J-P244
1 x J-Z435

Russia
2 x J-L70
1 x J-BY268
1 x J-PF5456

Lithuania
2 x J-PF5456
1 x J-BY268

Belarus
1 x J-PF5456
2 x J-BY268

Germany
1 x J-BY268
1 x J-PF5456
1 x J-BY96345 (on Sephardic group)
3 x J-L70
1 x J-Z40776

Austria
1 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC21083

Czech Republic
1 x J-BY268

Hungary
1 x J-L70

Dominican Republic
1 x J-PH2725 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Spain
2 x J-PF5456 (Found on JewishDNA project)
2 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic)
2 x J-L70 (Sephardic surname)

Italy
1 x J-FGC24630 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-Z2177 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-BY76232 (Jewish origin)
2 x J-L70 (Jewish origin)
2 x J-PH185 (Jewish origin)

Greece
1 x J-L70 (Romaniote)

Puerto Rico
2 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic)
2 x J-PF5456 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Portugal
1 x J-FGC6735 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-L70 (Sephardic)
2 x J-L70 (Sephardic surname)
1 x J-BY71859 (Sephardic surname)

Scotland
1 x J-Z40772 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Denmark
1 x J-L70 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Mexico
1 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic surname)
1 x J-S11348 (Jewish surname)

Wales
1 x J-L70 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Colombia
1 x J-FGC52118 (Sephardic surname)

Unknown
1 x J-Z2177 (Found on JewishDNA project)
5 x J-L70 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-L396 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-Z39055 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-BY268 (Ashkenazi)


While I'm here, I thought I may as well post all the frequencies of J-L70 that I have found from studies:
- Var (which is Eastern Provence): 7.8%
- Phokaia: 6.5%
- Central Anatolia: 5.5%
(https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69)

- Trapani: 9.09%
- Mazara del Vallo: 11.11%
- Alcamo: 8.33%
- Troina: 10%
- Ragusa: 3.57%
(https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008120)

- Crete: 3.8%
- Central Anatolia: 7.6%
- Southern Anatolia: 7.6%
(https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x?referrer_access_token=eQljOauKTU FmFPiAZJwLwIta6bR2k8jH0KrdpFOxC64XmhreEqal5SNCtKh9-BW7d7krq78hsuG77T1_s9u_kL6r_juJS3cU3X2r9FIGWhpLMGs wYsXNQ_UHZ_9dfBqsUlcGortc7eVSBgkWO7Xw_nz7Q-hsaGbYAlAjg-NPR7Y%3D)

- Cyprus: 4.9%
(https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8)

So yeah...

LTG
02-21-2020, 08:35 PM
Good work - I have been wanting to find out more about J-L70 for a while now as this is my own Y-DNA. You should probably remove any speculative labels around these samples until we know their ethnic origin for certain.

I would also appreciate it if you posted the full spreadsheet that includes data about the frequency of this lineage within Europe.

SUPREEEEEME
02-22-2020, 07:01 AM
Here's the spreadsheet:
https://www90.zippyshare.com/v/g7zrl9rF/file.html

Those interested may also find this of interest:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1XMZkpib63UEQMfyOLuiGo0wkO_E&vps=2&ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&ll=37.83926334953876%2C12.282155109907535&z=4

Here is the Yfull:
https://yfull.com/tree/J-L70/

Emre Altug
03-04-2020, 07:45 PM
Hello, i am following this thread. I am J-M172 from Turkey, originating in Sivas. I seem to be L70. Nevgen predicts me as Z2177, while J2 admins predict me as PF5456. My matches are all PF5456. By the way, i looked at your spreadsheet. The 4 Turkmenistan samples are from the same guy, who is Persian. Check the kit names his ancestor name is H.Z. He stated his grandfather was Persian origin. It also seems that L70 Saltak Azerbaijanis are Talysh(Persian). I have an Azerbaijani Talysh match.
Do you think L70 was of Israelite origin ? It may be, but my guess was it is West Anatolian Greek marker. L70 was found in Magna Graecia where Greeks colonized. It is hard to guess now, what it is, without ancient samples. But it seems to have an origin in the Med/Levant.

J Man
03-04-2020, 09:31 PM
Hello, i am following this thread. I am J-M172 from Turkey, originating in Sivas. I seem to be L70. Nevgen predicts me as Z2177, while J2 admins predict me as PF5456. My matches are all PF5456. By the way, i looked at your spreadsheet. The 4 Turkmenistan samples are from the same guy, who is Persian. Check the kit names his ancestor name is H.Z. He stated his grandfather was Persian origin. It also seems that L70 Saltak Azerbaijanis are Talysh(Persian). I have an Azerbaijani Talysh match.
Do you think L70 was of Israelite origin ? It may be, but my guess was it is West Anatolian Greek marker. L70 was found in Magna Graecia where Greeks colonized. It is hard to guess now, what it is, without ancient samples. But it seems to have an origin in the Med/Levant.

L70 is older than both the Israelites or Greeks. It is spread out into many different ethnic groups.

SUPREEEEEME
03-05-2020, 04:28 AM
Hello, i am following this thread. I am J-M172 from Turkey, originating in Sivas. I seem to be L70. Nevgen predicts me as Z2177, while J2 admins predict me as PF5456. My matches are all PF5456. By the way, i looked at your spreadsheet. The 4 Turkmenistan samples are from the same guy, who is Persian. Check the kit names his ancestor name is H.Z. He stated his grandfather was Persian origin. It also seems that L70 Saltak Azerbaijanis are Talysh(Persian). I have an Azerbaijani Talysh match.
Do you think L70 was of Israelite origin ? It may be, but my guess was it is West Anatolian Greek marker. L70 was found in Magna Graecia where Greeks colonized. It is hard to guess now, what it is, without ancient samples. But it seems to have an origin in the Med/Levant.

I have another thread on Jews and J-L70 which, in my opinion, can suggest that J-L70 was present in the Levant during the time period of the Israelites:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18818-Jews-and-J-L70

One of the interesting things about J-L70 is that it appears to be significantly more common in Italy than Greece (at least from what I've seen on FTDNA). Within Italy itself (particularly Sicily), J-L70 is far more common on the West Coast of Sicily while being relatively rare in inland Sicily and on the East coast of Sicily.

LTG
03-05-2020, 12:29 PM
I'm going to need to invest in a real Y-DNA test because all I have at the moment is a prediction that cannot be completely trusted. The information I have of my specific subclade so far doesn't really point towards it being of Jewish or Levantine origin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

"Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature. We resolved the J2a-L397 clade to an unprecedented precision, with three internal markers which allow a finer discrimination than STRs. The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions, with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus and Crete. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test.

In Italy all three variants were found mainly along the Western coast (18/25), which hosted the preferred Greek trade cities. The finding of all three differentiated lineages in Locri excludes a local founder effect of a single genealogy. Interestingly, an important Greek colony was established in this location, with continuity of human settlement until modern times. The sample composed of the same subjects displayed genetic affinities with Eastern Greece and the Aegean also at autosomal markers. In summary, the distributions of branches 57–59 mirror the variety of the cities of origin and geographic ranges during the phases of the colonization process. Molecular signs of the Greek expansion are even more subtle. A peculiarity of our Greek markers is that they relate more to the Aegean and are poorly represented in mainland Greece. This is line with the archeologically documented two step process of establishment of Aegean colonies and subsequent outward colonizations. It is possible that the markers arose in Greek Anatolia."

36650

SUPREEEEEME
03-05-2020, 01:23 PM
I'm going to need to invest in a real Y-DNA test because all I have at the moment is a prediction that cannot be completely trusted. The information I have of my specific subclade so far doesn't really point towards it being of Jewish or Levantine origin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

"Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature. We resolved the J2a-L397 clade to an unprecedented precision, with three internal markers which allow a finer discrimination than STRs. The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions, with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus and Crete. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test.

In Italy all three variants were found mainly along the Western coast (18/25), which hosted the preferred Greek trade cities. The finding of all three differentiated lineages in Locri excludes a local founder effect of a single genealogy. Interestingly, an important Greek colony was established in this location, with continuity of human settlement until modern times. The sample composed of the same subjects displayed genetic affinities with Eastern Greece and the Aegean also at autosomal markers. In summary, the distributions of branches 57–59 mirror the variety of the cities of origin and geographic ranges during the phases of the colonization process. Molecular signs of the Greek expansion are even more subtle. A peculiarity of our Greek markers is that they relate more to the Aegean and are poorly represented in mainland Greece. This is line with the archeologically documented two step process of establishment of Aegean colonies and subsequent outward colonizations. It is possible that the markers arose in Greek Anatolia."

36650

I think at the moment, an Anatolian origin is likely?

J.delajara
03-05-2020, 05:28 PM
Hello, i am following this thread. I am J-M172 from Turkey, originating in Sivas. I seem to be L70. Nevgen predicts me as Z2177, while J2 admins predict me as PF5456. My matches are all PF5456. By the way, i looked at your spreadsheet. The 4 Turkmenistan samples are from the same guy, who is Persian. Check the kit names his ancestor name is H.Z. He stated his grandfather was Persian origin. It also seems that L70 Saltak Azerbaijanis are Talysh(Persian). I have an Azerbaijani Talysh match.
Do you think L70 was of Israelite origin ? It may be, but my guess was it is West Anatolian Greek marker. L70 was found in Magna Graecia where Greeks colonized. It is hard to guess now, what it is, without ancient samples. But it seems to have an origin in the Med/Levant.

Interesting information Emre. Sivas was an important greco-roman settlement, specially after Pompeo Magno's reorganization of Asia Minor. It's interesting if you link this information, with the study posted by LTG. Regards

Emre Altug
03-05-2020, 06:13 PM
Interesting information Emre. Sivas was an important greco-roman settlement, specially after Pompeo Magno's reorganization of Asia Minor. It's interesting if you link this information, with the study posted by LTG. Regards
Thanks for the info, you know my hometown better than me. I will buy a SNP Pack as soon as DNA day discounts start.

Ilgar
03-08-2020, 07:59 AM
Waiting for Big-Y J-L70 Azerbaijani Turk from Georgia. Morley predictor says it is J-L70

StillWater
03-08-2020, 08:12 AM
There is a J-PF5456 from Tunisia - don't know if Jewish or Muslim.

SUPREEEEEME
03-08-2020, 08:33 AM
There is a J-PF5456 from Tunisia - don't know if Jewish or Muslim.

From where (as in database)?

StillWater
03-08-2020, 08:56 AM
From where (as in database)?

FTDNA Haplotree

SUPREEEEEME
03-08-2020, 09:28 AM
FTDNA Haplotree

Interesting - it must be a new addition. It could be either-or.

SUPREEEEEME
03-21-2020, 05:13 PM
Update: Thanks to the work of StillWater, we now know that J-L70 is present in Mountain Jews.

SUPREEEEEME
03-23-2020, 11:02 AM
36650

Looking back at this image, it's actually very interesting - and we can perhaps make some observations from it.

Firstly, of all the regions tested, Italy had the most J2a-L397 - 24. Interestingly, this is roughly on par with J1, J-M67, and J-M92 and J-L26(xM67) is significantly more frequent.

Within the "Rest of Europe", it's interesting to note that they reported J1 as being 7 times more common than J-L397, with J-L397, J2a(xL26) and J-M92 being the lowest.

Within Crete, J-L397 appears not to have been found (although we do know there is a presence there)

Within the "Middle East and Arabia", I find it interesting how after J1 and J-L26(xM67), J-L397 and J2b-M12 are the next most common, being twice as common as J-M67(xM92).

Within Turkey, we observe that J1, J-L26(xM67), and J-M67(xM92) are all more common than J-L397.

Within Greece, J-L26(xM67), J-M67(xM92), and J2b are all more common than J-L397.

Within Sardinia, J-L397 appears to be significantly less frequent than all the sub-haplogroups tested.

LTG
03-23-2020, 06:43 PM
Within the "Rest of Europe", it's interesting to note that they reported J1 as being 7 times more common than J-L397, with J-L397, J2a(xL26) and J-M92 being the lowest.

I think this may have something do with the long-standing Jewish communities across Europe. Those that converted to Christianity may have been responsible for the spread of J1 into non-Mediterranean areas of the continent i.e., Germany, England, Poland and Russia. The "Rest of Europe" in the case of J-L397 applies to France.


Within Crete, J-L397 appears not to have been found (although we do know there is a presence there)

It was found in Crete but for some reason they didn't include it in the table that I posted. Here is what is said in the study:

The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions, with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus and Crete. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test.


Within the "Middle East and Arabia", I find it interesting how after J1 and J-L26(xM67), J-L397 and J2b-M12 are the next most common, being twice as common as J-M67(xM92).

Within Turkey, we observe that J1, J-L26(xM67), and J-M67(xM92) are all more common than J-L397.

Within Greece, J-L26(xM67), J-M67(xM92), and J2b are all more common than J-L397.

Do not forget to take into account total tested population sizes for each of the clades. If you look at it from a relative perspective then J-L397 is actually more common in Greece and Turkey then the other lineages. I do believe there is something to the "Anatolian Greek" theory of the authors but i'm going to need to delve deeper because i'm not really satisfied with the undetailed MorleyDNA prediction.

SUPREEEEEME
03-25-2020, 10:05 AM
I have decided to create a thread to post my findings on where J-L70 is found in the MENA region and how many individuals I was able find.

A couple months back I decided to draw up a spreadsheet of J-L70 individuals from manually searching through loads of FamilyTreeDNA projects. From the data, it was most common in Jews, then Italians, then English people - which somewhat matched up with FamilyTreeDNA's Haplotree (minus Jews). Ultimately, I decided against doing anything with this spreadsheet, as I realised the Haplotree should have the exact information - but here we are (I'm only discussing MENA groups - but if anyone wants me to post the whole spreadsheet, just ask). In this spreadsheet, I explicitly acknowledged Jewish descent (Ashkenazi, Sephardi etc...).

I'm not going to post any kit numbers, but I do have them all on the spreadsheet. I explicitly checked that I had no duplicate kit numbers. Unfortunately there were some projects I could not access - oh well...
I'll disclose ethnicity/tribe etc... where possible

DISCLAIMER: If there are any errors, please let me know - and remember - I'm only human :)
Most are subclades under J-L70, where there is uncertainty/doubt, I disclose it.

THIS IS FAMILYTREEDNA ONLY

Iraq:
10 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-CTS3601 (Kurdish)
1 x J-CTS3601 (Arab)
1 x J-FGC24630
2 x J-CTS6061

Lebanon
5 x J-CTS3601

Saudi Arabia
1 x J-L70
1 x J-PH2838
1 x J-CTS3601

Jordan
1 x J-CTS3601

Syria
1 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-L70 (Alawite)
1 x J-FGC24630
1 x J-Y128867
1 x J-L70

Azerbaijan
1 x J-PH2725 (Saltak tribe)
1 x J-PH2725
1 x J-Z2177

Turkey
2 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC24630
1 x J-Z40004
1 x J-FT133466
2 x J-Z2177
1 x J-M137

Armenia
4 x J-L70
1 x J-PF5456
1 x J-Z435

Algeria
1 x J-CTS3601

Palestinian Territories
1 x J-CTS3601
1 x J-Z435

Egypt
1 x J-CTS3601

Turkmenistan
2 x J-L70
2 x J-L1021

Georgia
1 x CTS3601

Iran
1 x J-Z2177

Jews
*Important to note: mostly name/surname based. Many "Sephardic" surnames were googled for confirmation (if that means anything). If they were on a JewishDNA project (I'll specify), I assumed they were of Jewish origin (whether that's right or wrong). Assume Ashkenazi unless told otherwise.

Romania
1 x J-P244

Poland
1 x J-Z45813
5 x J-PF5456
1 x J-Z39496
5 x J-P244
1 x J-BY37767
2 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC6734
1 x J-L398
1 x J-L396

Ukraine
2 x J-BY268
3 x J-PF5456
6 x J-L70
1 x J-BY242
3 x J-P244
1 x J-Z435

Russia
2 x J-L70
1 x J-BY268
1 x J-PF5456

Lithuania
2 x J-PF5456
1 x J-BY268

Belarus
1 x J-PF5456
2 x J-BY268

Germany
1 x J-BY268
1 x J-PF5456
1 x J-BY96345 (on Sephardic group)
3 x J-L70
1 x J-Z40776

Austria
1 x J-L70
1 x J-FGC21083

Czech Republic
1 x J-BY268

Hungary
1 x J-L70

Dominican Republic
1 x J-PH2725 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Spain
2 x J-PF5456 (Found on JewishDNA project)
2 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic)
2 x J-L70 (Sephardic surname)

Italy
1 x J-FGC24630 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-Z2177 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-BY76232 (Jewish origin)
2 x J-L70 (Jewish origin)
2 x J-PH185 (Jewish origin)

Greece
1 x J-L70 (Romaniote)

Puerto Rico
2 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic)
2 x J-PF5456 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Portugal
1 x J-FGC6735 (Found on JewishDNA project)
1 x J-L70 (Sephardic)
2 x J-L70 (Sephardic surname)
1 x J-BY71859 (Sephardic surname)

Scotland
1 x J-Z40772 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Denmark
1 x J-L70 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Mexico
1 x J-PF5456 (Sephardic surname)
1 x J-S11348 (Jewish surname)

Wales
1 x J-L70 (Found on JewishDNA project)

Colombia
1 x J-FGC52118 (Sephardic surname)

Unknown
1 x J-Z2177 (Found on JewishDNA project)
5 x J-L70 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-L396 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-Z39055 (Ashkenazi)
1 x J-BY268 (Ashkenazi)


While I'm here, I thought I may as well post all the frequencies of J-L70 that I have found from studies:
- Var (which is Eastern Provence): 7.8%
- Phokaia: 6.5%
- Central Anatolia: 5.5%
(https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69)

- Trapani: 9.09%
- Mazara del Vallo: 11.11%
- Alcamo: 8.33%
- Troina: 10%
- Ragusa: 3.57%
(https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008120)

- Crete: 3.8%
- Central Anatolia: 7.6%
- Southern Anatolia: 7.6%
(https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x?referrer_access_token=eQljOauKTU FmFPiAZJwLwIta6bR2k8jH0KrdpFOxC64XmhreEqal5SNCtKh9-BW7d7krq78hsuG77T1_s9u_kL6r_juJS3cU3X2r9FIGWhpLMGs wYsXNQ_UHZ_9dfBqsUlcGortc7eVSBgkWO7Xw_nz7Q-hsaGbYAlAjg-NPR7Y%3D)

- Cyprus: 4.9%
(https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8)

So yeah...

I've found a few extra people to add - but can't seem to edit the post, so here they are:

Iraq
1 x J-Z435

Jordan
2 x J-Z435

Saudi Arabia
1 x J-PH185

I haven't added them to the spreadsheet, but I got them from this project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-CTS1192?iframe=yresults

Some general notes on things I've found out:
- All the Jordanian individuals are from the Aljoun province
- The Iraqi individual above is from Basra. 'Al-Tamimia'. Not sure if he's related to Banu Tamim:

Banū Tamīm (Arabic: بَنُو تَمِيم‎) or Banī Tamīm (Arabic: بَنِي تَمِيم‎) is one of the tribes of Arabia, mainly present in Saudi Arabia, With a strong presence attested in Algeria[2][3], in Palestine, in Tunisia, and to a lesser extent in Libya following the Aghlabid dynasty[2]. Today, the word Tamim in Arabic means strong and solid.[4][5] It can also mean perfect.[6]
Banu Tamim are an Adnanite tribe, which means they claim descent from the Ishmael of the Quran through Adnan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Tamim

- From my first post, two Syrians and one Iraqi are Bani Sakhr (بني صخر):
Beni Sakhr is the name of a large Bedouin tribe living in Jordan. The Bani Sakhr migrated to central Jordan from the Hijaz in the late eighteenth century.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bani_Sakher

- The Kurdish individual we have is from the Talabani clan (عشيرة الطالباني) and is from Kirkuk.
- The Iraqi Arab we have is Kinani - so I assume he's from Banu Kinanah (بنو كنانة):

The Banu Kinanah (Arabic: بنو كنانة‎, romanized: Banū Kināna) or Bani Kināna are the largest Mudhari Adnanite tribe in the Hejaz and Tihama regions of western Saudi Arabia. Their original territory was located near the city of Mecca.[1] A number of modern-day tribes throughout the Arab world trace their lineage to the Banu Kinanah.[2]
The tribe traces its ancestry to Ishmael, who married a woman of the Arab Jurhum tribe and settled in the vicinity of Mecca according to Islamic tradition.[3][4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Kinanah

- Assuming I've translated correctly, the Egyptian individual is from the Sinai.

According to this project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/G2c/default.aspx?section=yresults

We can add the following:

Lebanon
1 x J-M318 (Jbeil, Byblos)
1 x J-M318 (Bkassine, South Lebanon)

SUPREEEEEME
04-03-2020, 04:38 PM
Some more frequencies based on this paper:
https://www.academia.edu/30091350/Y-chromosomal_evidence_of_the_cultural_diffusion_of_ agriculture_in_southeast_Europe

Greeks 1.1%
Macedonian-Greeks 1.8%
Bosnia-Serbs 2.5%
Bosnia-Croats 1.1%
Croats 1.1%
North-East-Italians 3%
Ukrainians 1.1%
Georgians 1.5%

From this study:
https://www.academia.edu/24625510/Differential_Y-chromosome_Anatolian_Influences_on_the_Greek_and_C retan_Neolithic
Nea Nikomedeia 1.8%
Sesklo and Dimini 3.5%
Lerna and Franchthi Cave 1.8%
Crete 2.6%

SUPREEEEEME
04-04-2020, 10:19 AM
Some more individuals:

Lebanon
2 x J-CTS3601 (but negative for J-PF5456)

Iraq
2 x J-CTS3601 (including another Kurdish individual)

Bahrain
1 x J-CTS3601

Unknown
1 x J-CTS3601 (Category:"Sham")
3 x J-CTS3601 (Category:"Kenana + Bani Sakher + Abbasid")

From this project:https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/wayeel/about/background

This basically brings our J-L70 total to:
Iraq: 18
Lebanon: 9
Saudi Arabia: 4
Jordan: 3
Syria: 5
Azerbaijan: 3
Turkey: 8
Armenia: 6
Algeria: 1
Palestinian: 2
Egypt: 1
Turkmenistan: 4
Georgia: 1
Iran: 1
Bahrain: 1
Unknown Middle Eastern origin: 4
Jews: 95

SUPREEEEEME
04-04-2020, 10:28 AM
Somehow missed the rest of the frequencies from this study:
https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69

I'll just post the new ones with the old ones:
Phokaia 6.5%
Smyrna 1.7%
Nea Nikomedeia 1.8%
Sesklo/Dimini 3.5%
Lerna/Franchthi Cave 1.8%
Northwest Anatolia (Istanbul) 1.9%
Mediterranean Anatolia (South-East Anatolian Coast) 12.1% -- the highest we have so far
Central Anatolia 5.6%
Western Anatolia 0%
Provence 7.8%

Ilgar
04-26-2020, 01:03 PM
We have new big y J-Z44439 Azerbaijani from Georgia and most probably had Anatolian ancestors.

J.delajara
04-26-2020, 02:30 PM
We have new big y J-Z44439 Azerbaijani from Georgia and most probably had Anatolian ancestors.

Thanks for the interesting information. On yFull J-Z44439 cluster, is formed by two germans and one Swiss.

Ilgar
04-26-2020, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the interesting information. On yFull J-Z44439 cluster, is formed by two germans and one Swiss.

I asked him to upload at least his VCF to yfull so we will see what happens

SUPREEEEEME
04-27-2020, 05:49 AM
Forgot to add: we've found Moroccan Jews with J-L70

SUPREEEEEME
05-13-2020, 08:25 AM
UPDATE:
I got someone who is half Tunisian Jewish-half Bukharan Jewish to search his DNA matches, this is what we found:
- 38 Bukharan Jewish J-L70s
- 8 Tunisian Jewish J-L70s
- 2 Algerian Jewish J-L70s (siblings)

This confirms J-L70s presence in Algerian Jews

SUPREEEEEME
05-15-2020, 01:11 PM
J-L70>J-M318:

Lake Van (Armenians - Eastern Anatolia): 5.83%

https://www.academia.edu/3590606/Neolithic_patrilineal_signals_indicate_that_the_Ar menian_plateau_was_repopulated_by_agriculturalists

SUPREEEEEME
06-07-2020, 03:56 PM
I have confirmed J-L70 individuals from the following families (outside of FamilyTreeDNA):
- Haddad (Palestinian)
- Khoury (Lebanese)
- Rabbat (Lebanese)
- Unis (Lebanese)
- Toumpouris (Cypriot)
- Karem Salem (Levantine)
- Netwalli (Levantine)
- Alaily (Levantine)
- Alshawaa (Levantine)

J.delajara
06-10-2020, 03:09 PM
Thanks Supreeeeme.
It's interesting how the researchers associate J-M318 as one of the Bronze Age Greece Linages, quote ''Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). ''
I Think JL70 was Anatolian in origin, and some of its subclades were part of the Greek world, that expanded, since Bronze age, to the west.

Regards


J-L70>J-M318:

Lake Van (Armenians - Eastern Anatolia): 5.83%

https://www.academia.edu/3590606/Neolithic_patrilineal_signals_indicate_that_the_Ar menian_plateau_was_repopulated_by_agriculturalists

SUPREEEEEME
06-10-2020, 03:49 PM
Thanks Supreeeeme.
It's interesting how the researchers associate J-M318 as one of the Bronze Age Greece Linages, quote ''Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). ''
I Think JL70 was Anatolian in origin, and some of its subclades were part of the Greek world, that expanded, since Bronze age, to the west.

Regards

Reminder that J-M319 and J-M318 are very different. I don't think M318 has a presence in Greece. Based on the study that associated J-L70 with Greek expansion, it's worth noting that they only found J-Z2177 amongst their Greek samples. J-FT1679 is most likely a Levantine branch. J-CTS3601 appears to have originated in the Middle East - I've found a notably larger amount of Iraqi individuals who fall under it, but exactly where it originated is more uncertain.

J.delajara
06-10-2020, 04:45 PM
Thanks for your answer. J-M319 and J-M318 are indeed different. I was only underlining the conclusion made by the authors. Although, as FTDNA shows, many Iraqi samples are J-CTS3601, you find a small presence of it subclades in the Middle East and much more in the Northern Mediterranean. At the time, a lot of this clade in found Southern Italy, specially on the Tyrrenean coasts on ex-greek colonies, such as Locri, as demonstrated on the Finocchio et Al. paper of 2018. From the paper ( Branch 59 is CTS6061)
"Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature. We resolved the J2a-L397 clade to an unprecedented precision, with three internal markers which allow a finer discrimination than STRs. The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions (Fig. 2B), with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus56 and Crete43. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test. In Italy all three variants were found mainly along the Western coast (18/25), which hosted the preferred Greek trade cities. The finding of all three differentiated lineages in Locri excludes a local founder effect of a single genealogy. Interestingly, an important Greek colony was established in this location, with continuity of human settlement until modern times. The sample composed of the same subjects displayed genetic affinities with Eastern Greece and the Aegean also at autosomal markers57. In summary, the distributions of branches 57–59 mirror the variety of the cities of origin and geographic ranges during the phases of the colonization process.
So for me, CTS3601 is much Anatolian Greek, or Anatolian at least, than middle eastern. Let's wait and see what future ancient samples will say. Thanks again
Regards

SUPREEEEEME
06-10-2020, 06:08 PM
Thanks for your answer. J-M319 and J-M318 are indeed different. I was only underlining the conclusion made by the authors. Although, as FTDNA shows, many Iraqi samples are J-CTS3601, you find a small presence of it subclades in the Middle East and much more in the Northern Mediterranean. At the time, a lot of this clade in found Southern Italy, specially on the Tyrrenean coasts on ex-greek colonies, such as Locri, as demonstrated on the Finocchio et Al. paper of 2018. From the paper ( Branch 59 is CTS6061)
"Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature. We resolved the J2a-L397 clade to an unprecedented precision, with three internal markers which allow a finer discrimination than STRs. The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions (Fig. 2B), with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus56 and Crete43. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test. In Italy all three variants were found mainly along the Western coast (18/25), which hosted the preferred Greek trade cities. The finding of all three differentiated lineages in Locri excludes a local founder effect of a single genealogy. Interestingly, an important Greek colony was established in this location, with continuity of human settlement until modern times. The sample composed of the same subjects displayed genetic affinities with Eastern Greece and the Aegean also at autosomal markers57. In summary, the distributions of branches 57–59 mirror the variety of the cities of origin and geographic ranges during the phases of the colonization process.
So for me, CTS3601 is much Anatolian Greek, or Anatolian at least, than middle eastern. Let's wait and see what future ancient samples will say. Thanks again
Regards

I agree that we need more ancient samples. To my knowledge, all the samples from the study you quoted were Z2177 (based off BAM files)

Due to modern testing bias, L70 appears to be more common in Europe, but we are starting to see a shift as the Near East is testing more, we are finding more and more Near Eastern L70s.

At the same time, Greece appears to have a relatively low L70 frequency - around 1.1% as a population. I think some of the Z2177 branches might be Greek (not M318) and could reflect Greek expansion.

L70 and CTS3601 need to have been spread by a successful MLBA Near Eastern culture in order for it to have achieved it's current distribution.

In Sicily, L70 particularly peaks in areas such as Trapani (Phoenician), Mazara Del Vallo (Phoenician), Alcamo (Arabs). In contrast, Sciacca (Greek) had no L70. In Italy, the only frequencies we have so far (broader) are Sicily (4.66%) and Northeast Italy (3%).

J.delajara
06-10-2020, 07:55 PM
Thanks again Supreeeme. Regarding Z2177 probably the Study you mentioned, is The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean'' by R. king in 2011, on the Finocchio paper, ´´A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean'', if you check the supplementary material, you can see that Branch 59, is CTS3601, specifically rs781395358 SNP's [B]CTS6061/PF5453.
Regarding the Di Gaetano paper on Sicily, you can check my view on this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=629168#post629168.
Today, PF5456, a relevant subclade of CTS3601, is one of the most important J2's clades in Italy, with a relevant presence in the south. Another important fact is that the oldest sample we have, until now of course, of a subclade under JL-70 is an Hellenic-roman, found in Rome, in Late Antiquity ( around the V century AD), from the Antonio paper, he is Z40772, under PF5456.
I still think L-70 was Anatolic and CTS3601 it could be Anatolic Greek ( or Pelasgian/Myceanean) that, in the case of PF5456, became Italiota, and expanded in roman times all over the Empire.
I'm sure on the incoming papers we will have further news regarding JL70. Thanks again for the interesting exchange of views. Best Regards

J.delajara
06-11-2020, 03:08 AM
Thanks again Supreeeme. Regarding Z2177 probably the Study you mentioned, is The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean'' by R. king in 2011, on the Finocchio paper, ´´A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean'', if you check the supplementary material, you can see that Branch 59, is CTS3601, specifically rs781395358 SNP's [B]CTS6061/PF5453.
Regarding the Di Gaetano paper on Sicily, you can check my view on this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=629168#post629168.
Today, PF5456, a relevant subclade of CTS3601, is one of the most important J2's clades in Italy, with a relevant presence in the south. Another important fact is that the oldest sample we have, until now of course, of a subclade under JL-70 is an Hellenic-roman, found in Rome, in Late Antiquity ( around the V century AD), from the Antonio paper, he is Z40772, under PF5456.
I still think L-70 was Anatolic and CTS3601 it could be Anatolic Greek ( or Pelasgian/Myceanean) that, in the case of PF5456, became Italiota, and expanded in roman times all over the Empire.
I'm sure on the incoming papers we will have further news regarding JL70. Thanks again for the interesting exchange of views. Best Regards








Adding to my last post, and regarding Sicily, I think the paper published on 2015 by Tofanelli ''The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily'', shows better evidence of the presence of L-70 in that island, showing clearly that the presence of this clade is much higher on the greek part of the island, that is Eastern Sicily, with a 6% of the whole sample, compare to the western side, where L-70 presence is only the 3%. The same paper shows that this clade represents the 9% in central Italy a 4% in Euboea and a 3% in Corinthia.

SUPREEEEEME
06-11-2020, 07:39 AM
Adding to my last post, and regarding Sicily, I think the paper published on 2015 by Tofanelli ''The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily'', shows better evidence of the presence of L-70 in that island, showing clearly that the presence of this clade is much higher on the greek part of the island, that is Eastern Sicily, with a 6% of the whole sample, compare to the western side, where L-70 presence is only the 3%. The same paper shows that this clade represents the 9% in central Italy a 4% in Euboea and a 3% in Corinthia.

Thanks for the info! I haven't seen that study before. I'll definitely add the %'s in a separate post.


Thanks again Supreeeme. Regarding Z2177 probably the Study you mentioned, is The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean'' by R. king in 2011, on the Finocchio paper, ´´A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean'', if you check the supplementary material, you can see that Branch 59, is CTS3601, specifically rs781395358 SNP's [B]CTS6061/PF5453.
Regarding the Di Gaetano paper on Sicily, you can check my view on this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....168#post629168.
Today, PF5456, a relevant subclade of CTS3601, is one of the most important J2's clades in Italy, with a relevant presence in the south. Another important fact is that the oldest sample we have, until now of course, of a subclade under JL-70 is an Hellenic-roman, found in Rome, in Late Antiquity ( around the V century AD), from the Antonio paper, he is Z40772, under PF5456.
I still think L-70 was Anatolic and CTS3601 it could be Anatolic Greek ( or Pelasgian/Myceanean) that, in the case of PF5456, became Italiota, and expanded in roman times all over the Empire.
I'm sure on the incoming papers we will have further news regarding JL70. Thanks again for the interesting exchange of views. Best Regards


So I double-checked, all the Greek samples from the "A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean" paper were Z2177 according to the BAM files (I was told this). With regards to the LA Roman L70 found in the Antonio paper, this unfortunately doesn't tell us much since, as the paper demonstrated, Rome received the large majority of their J lineages from Middle Eastern men during the Imperial Age - which is likely when Rome received their J-L70. I imagine this could be the source for a large portion of Central Italy's L70. I definitely agree that Rome likely spread L70 throughout continental Europe. But, I imagine the South did receive their J-L70 from a combined source (Greeks, Phoenicians, and Jews - Jews did arrive in Italy with the Magna Graecia colonists).

Comparing the study you gave me with the older study examining South Italy, we can get the following intervals:
- West Sicily 2.9% - 5.73%
- East Sicily 3.5% - 6.1%

One of these days I'll put together a distribution map.

SUPREEEEEME
06-11-2020, 07:52 AM
- East Sicily(Augusta, Lentini, S.Croce Camerina, Siracuse) 6.1%
- West Sicily(Caccamo, Castellammare del Golfo, Trapani) 2.9%
- South Italy(Belvedere Marittimo, Benevento, Lecce) 3.4%
- Ionian Italy(Catanzaro, Cosenza, Matera) 4.8%
- North Italy(La Spezia, Udine) 1.1%
- Central Italy(Ascoli Piceno, Latina) 9.1%
- Corinthia 2.9%
- Turkey 4.5%
- Albania 2.2%
- Croatia 0%
- Euboea 4.3%

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124#Sec18

J.delajara
06-11-2020, 07:56 PM
- East Sicily(Augusta, Lentini, S.Croce Camerina, Siracuse) 6.1%
- West Sicily(Caccamo, Castellammare del Golfo, Trapani) 2.9%
- South Italy(Belvedere Marittimo, Benevento, Lecce) 3.4%
- Ionian Italy(Catanzaro, Cosenza, Matera) 4.8%
- North Italy(La Spezia, Udine) 1.1%
- Central Italy(Ascoli Piceno, Latina) 9.1%
- Corinthia 2.9%
- Turkey 4.5%
- Albania 2.2%
- Croatia 0%
- Euboea 4.3%

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124#Sec18

Thanks again Supreeeeme, let's wait for more Ancient Samples, and we will have further confirmations.
Regards

J.delajara
06-12-2020, 03:12 PM
Thanks for the info! I haven't seen that study before. I'll definitely add the %'s in a separate post.




So I double-checked, all the Greek samples from the "A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean" paper were Z2177 according to the BAM files (I was told this). With regards to the LA Roman L70 found in the Antonio paper, this unfortunately doesn't tell us much since, as the paper demonstrated, Rome received the large majority of their J lineages from Middle Eastern men during the Imperial Age - which is likely when Rome received their J-L70. I imagine this could be the source for a large portion of Central Italy's L70. I definitely agree that Rome likely spread L70 throughout continental Europe. But, I imagine the South did receive their J-L70 from a combined source (Greeks, Phoenicians, and Jews - Jews did arrive in Italy with the Magna Graecia colonists).

Comparing the study you gave me with the older study examining South Italy, we can get the following intervals:
- West Sicily 2.9% - 5.73%
- East Sicily 3.5% - 6.1%

One of these days I'll put together a distribution map.

Supreeeme, I also checked again the Study, ''A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean", although I haven't seen the Bam file, the Paper analyzed three branches under J-L70, branches, branch 57 ( Z2177), branch 58 (rs77512766) & branch 59 (CTS3601), they concluded, by analyzing ancient a derived alleles , regarding the three branches, quote: ''the centroids of carriers of the ancestral allele were located in Greece''. It's interesting to note that Euboea has more than 4% of JL-70, and they were active colonists both, in Anatolia and in the west.
. But as we said, we need to be patient and wait. Have a nice afternoon. Regards

SUPREEEEEME
06-12-2020, 04:47 PM
Supreeeme, I also checked again the Study, ''A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean", although I haven't seen the Bam file, the Paper analyzed three branches under J-L70, branches, branch 57 ( Z2177), branch 58 (rs77512766) & branch 59 (CTS3601), they concluded, by analyzing ancient a derived alleles , regarding the three branches, quote: ''the centroids of carriers of the ancestral allele were located in Greece''. It's interesting to note that Euboea has more than 4% of JL-70, and they were active colonists both, in Anatolia and in the west.
. But as we said, we need to be patient and wait. Have a nice afternoon. Regards

Granted - but all the East Sicilian and Greek L70's were Z2177. I have been informed that one of the L70's from Benevento was CTS3601 as well as one of the Turkish ones.

One thing that has got me stumped, is that L70 exhibits it's highest frequency in Southeast Anatolia (~12.1%)(so far) - it continues exhibiting a higher frequency in Anatolia (South and Central)(~7.6%), but drops substantially in Greece (~1%-4.3%), then spikes again in Western Sicily (~9%-11% - Trapani and Mazara del Vallo)(and to a slightly lesser extent Eastern Sicily, as you have demonstrated) and Central Italy (~9.1%)(as you have also demonstrated).

An interesting sublade, that's for sure.

Emre Altug
06-14-2020, 11:38 AM
Kit number 250601 is from Kazakhstan and he is likely CTS3601. I support the "steppe origin" of this clade. We will see where it belongs together with the new samples.

SUPREEEEEME
06-14-2020, 12:36 PM
Kit number 250601 is from Kazakhstan and he is likely CTS3601. I support the "steppe origin" of this clade. We will see where it belongs together with the new samples.

From my experience, L70 is incredibly rare in the Caucasus and beyond. I'm busy gathering data for a distribution map (to fill in the gaps where we don't have frequencies from papers) and noticed in the DNA projects of the Nakh, Ingush etc... there wasn't any J-L70 amongst thousands of project members.

Emre Altug
06-14-2020, 01:58 PM
From my experience, L70 is incredibly rare in the Caucasus and beyond. I'm busy gathering data for a distribution map (to fill in the gaps where we don't have frequencies from papers) and noticed in the DNA projects of the Nakh, Ingush etc... there wasn't any J-L70 amongst thousands of project members.

Vainakh people are generally under J-CTS6804 which is under M67, and it was probably Anatolian/Hurrian in origin. Just like the G2a in South Caucasians are from Anatolia. But some Karachays, Balkarians, Bashkirs and Tatar groups do have for example J-FGC34168 under Z387. Looks like that clade has steppe origin. The samples from Central Asia, Steppe and surroundings are a bit scarce.

SUPREEEEEME
06-14-2020, 02:19 PM
Vainakh people are generally under J-CTS6804 which is under M67, and it was probably Anatolian/Hurrian in origin. Just like the G2a in South Caucasians are from Anatolia. But some Karachays, Balkarians, Bashkirs and Tatar groups do have for example J-FGC34168 under Z387. Looks like that clade has steppe origin. The samples from Central Asia, Steppe and surroundings are a bit scarce.

I haven't looked into FGC35503 too much - but the trend I've seen is it's one of the more common J2 clades in Arabia particularly, as evidenced by YFull. The J-FGC34168 branch is also shared with Turks/Anatolians - so likely migrated North into Central Asia, Steppe etc.... That combined with the almost blatant absence of L70 in those regions points towards Z387 originating in the Fertile Crescent, and spreading from there (maybe in Eastern Anatolia/Syria?). Keeping in mind, L24 and L25 originated in Iran, with branches such as Z438 and PF4888 migrating west to the Levant (L24 peaks in Iran and the Levant) where their formation possibly occurred.

Principe
06-14-2020, 03:08 PM
When it comes to L70, I think nothing can be definitively concluded, based on its TMRCA and branch formations, the only thing that can be said is that it arose from a powerful MLBA culture.

When it comes to the broader Z387 branch including FGC35503/Y17949, thing to consider is what we see in ancient dna that its brother F3133 was born and diversified in the Iranian Plateau and spread to Central Asia and Eastern Iran early on (of course some branches did and others likely stayed near point of origin Central Iran maybe?), so movements from Iran historically should be considered, imo Z387’s ancestor moved into Western Iran, with Y17949 moving into the Caucasus and L70 either moving into Fertile Crescent or Eastern Turkey. Arguments can be made for both, and either an Assyrian or Hittite origin for L70 can work, both were extremely mobile civilizations during this time period.

SUPREEEEEME
06-18-2020, 04:09 PM
Frequency map of J-L70

38064

Based off figures from studies and FamilyTreeDNA regional groups.

Data not from the studies found in this thread:
Abruzzo, Lazio, Molise - 3/222 = 1.35%
Azerbaijan - 4/518 = 0.77%
Bulgaria - 7/953 = 0.73%
Galicia - 1/777 = 0.13%
Used this figure as an Iberian proxy as L70's presence in Spain appears relatively constant, but many of the Iberian L70s are Sephardic - I imagine Portugal has a slightly higher frequency.
Armenia - 6/1071 = 0.56%
Jordan - 1/21 = 4.76%
Iraq - 18/2087 = 0.82%
Syria - 5/147 = 3.4%
Algeria - 1/251 = 0.4%
Egypt - 1/248 = 0.4%
I used Algeria and Egypt as North African proxies. L70 does have a presence in all North African countries, but was unable to find actual %'s using FTDNA. I imagine the coasts of Tunisia might display a slightly higher frequency.
Lebanon - 9/254 = 3.54%
Georgia - 3/659 = 0.46%
For Israel, used Libyan Jews as a proxy - who have L70 at a frequency of 5%.
Kuwait - 1/428 = 0.23%

Figures not used:
Italy - 17/2129 = 0.8%
North Italy - 1/737 = 0.14%

Other figures from studies:
Lecce 3.4%
Ionian Italy 4.8%
South Italy 3.4%
Latina 9.1%
Cyprus 4.9%
Crete 3.2%
Euboea 4.3%
Trapani 9.09%
Mazara del Vallo 11.11%
Ragusa 3.57%
Syracuse 6.1%
Alcamo 8.33%
Troina 8.33%
West Sicily 4.32% (average of 2 studies)
North Italy 1.1%
Ascoli Piceno 9.1%
Corinthia 2.9%
Sesklo and Dimini 3.5%
Greece 1.1%
Var 7.8%
Albania 2.2%
Macedonia 1.1%
Istanbul 1.9%
Southeast Anatolia 12.1%
East Anatolia 5.8%
Southern Anatolia 7.6%
Central Anatolia 6.55% (average of 2 studies)
Phokaia 6.5%
Smyrna 1.7%
Bosnia 1.8%
Croatia 0.55% (average of study and FTDNA)

J.delajara
06-18-2020, 04:45 PM
Thanks a lot Supreeeme, nice work. Just two questions:
Your study considers only L-70 or you also added its clades, under Z435?
Which is your base to put the basal star?, according to the data you used, you should put it on southern Anatolia.
Best Regards

SUPREEEEEME
06-18-2020, 04:48 PM
Thanks a lot Supreeeme, nice work. Just two questions:
Your study considers only L-70 or you also added its clades, under Z435?
Which is your base to put the basal star?, according to the data you used, you should put it on southern Anatolia.
Best Regards

It's just J-L70 - not any downstream clades. The Basal from YFull - the Jordanian J-L70*

J.delajara
06-18-2020, 05:03 PM
Thanks Supreeeme. Regarding the Basal, I think maybe you should take in consideration the study of A. Finocchio that analyses ancient alleles, Yfull is an excellent analysis of actual samples, for example I don´t think Z435 is basal in Northern Ireland, as shown in Yfull, neither PF5456 in Germany.
Regards

leperrine
06-29-2020, 04:46 PM
I'm under J-L70. Specifically I'm J-FT63319. My paternal Ancestors were Huguenots that came to America in 1665. Before that they were Norman nobility. Right now the best theory I have about my specific branch is that it came into Europe with the Alans. Possibly picked up out of the Levant after the Assyrians deported large numbers of Israelite's.

J Man
06-29-2020, 05:18 PM
I'm under J-L70. Specifically I'm J-FT63319. My paternal Ancestors were Huguenots that came to America in 1665. Before that they were Norman nobility. Right now the best theory I have about my specific branch is that it came into Europe with the Alans. Possibly picked up out of the Levant after the Assyrians deported large numbers of Israelite's.

Interesting...Which Norman noble family do you come from? If you do not want to mention it on here that is fine though.

SUPREEEEEME
06-29-2020, 05:37 PM
I'm under J-L70. Specifically I'm J-FT63319. My paternal Ancestors were Huguenots that came to America in 1665. Before that they were Norman nobility. Right now the best theory I have about my specific branch is that it came into Europe with the Alans. Possibly picked up out of the Levant after the Assyrians deported large numbers of Israelite's.

Recently, a Palestinian joined YFull who is a splitter i.e. he will make a new subclade between J-Z387 and J-L70, which points to a Levantine origin for L70 at the moment (so the two basal branches for L70 are only found in Jordan and Gaza). As to how your clade entered Europe will need to be subject to further research. There were several likely movements of L70 into Europe:
- Anatolians (to Greeks)
- Phoenicians
- Jewish diaspora
- Near Easterners during Imperial Rome
- Perhaps some others

The only 'issue' with the Alans, is that L70 doesn't have a large presence (if at all) in modern times where the Alans were situated (i.e. Caucasus/North Caucasus)

leperrine
06-29-2020, 06:18 PM
Another theory is he could be a Judean that converted to Christianity and came to Europe before the destruction of the temple.

leperrine
06-29-2020, 06:22 PM
Interesting...Which Norman noble family do you come from? If you do not want to mention it on here that is fine though.

In the book Daniel Perrin, "The Huguenot," and his descendants in America. written by my relative Howland Perrine. He mentions a connection to Roger de Barneville. A knight who rode with William the Conqueror and help put him on the throne. My family would go on to marry into other prominent Norman families too.
https://archive.org/details/danielperrintheh1910perr
Well, I think I just found the connection!
Jean Perrine married Nicholaa de Sausmarez according to the island wiki site.
Here's the connection:
Hugh Sire of Barneville circa 1033s
Sire Roger de Barneville circa 1098s
William de Barneville circa 1160s
DAUGHTER: Nicolaa de Lucy (de Barneville) circa 1180s
HUSBAND: Maurice de Lucy
Son: Jordan de Lucy de Barneville circa 1209
WIFE: UNKNOWN
DAUGHTER: Alianor de Lucy de Saumarez circa 1225
HUSBAND: Nicholas de Sausmarez
Son: Matthieu de Sausmarez circa 1245
WIFE: Alicia de Sausmarez de St. Remy
DAUGHTER: Nicholaa de Sausmarez cira 1313
HUSBAND: Jean Perrin
SON: Dominique Perrin
Jean Perrin
Guillaue Perrin
Johan Perrin
John Perrin
Dominique Perrin
Edmund Perrin, Seigneur of Rozel
Hugh Perrin
Dominque Perrin
Comte Du Perrin aka Louis Perrin
Pierre Perrin (Count Pierre)
Daniel "The Huguenot" Perrin (Came to America, 1665)
Henry Perrin
John Perrine
Peter Perrine
James Mount Perrine
Isaac H. Perrine
Raymond Ely Perrine (Great Grandfather)
Lyman Perrine (My Grandfather)
Lyman Eric Perrine (My Father)
Lyman Eric Perrine Jr (Me)

leperrine
06-29-2020, 06:27 PM
My Perrin branch likely originated in southern France.

PERRIN, formerly PERIN, PIER-
RIN, or PAIRIN,
Old family of noble race & lineage, established in Caftres, in
Languedoc, and divided into several branches.
Depending on a Memory, or a & Notice sent,
on this old NoblelTe, at the Libraire, &
which was handed to us on the 15th of July, 1775,
........
I. DEODAT OF Perrin, Sieur de la Balme,
who lived in 1 1 16, and fe maria to Huguette
of Beauregard, Lady of Fromentes &
Mirabel. They had other children,........

J.delajara
06-29-2020, 08:14 PM
Recently, a Palestinian joined YFull who is a splitter i.e. he will make a new subclade between J-Z387 and J-L70, which points to a Levantine origin for L70 at the moment (so the two basal branches for L70 are only found in Jordan and Gaza). As to how your clade entered Europe will need to be subject to further research. There were several likely movements of L70 into Europe:
- Anatolians (to Greeks)
- Phoenicians
- Jewish diaspora
- Near Easterners during Imperial Rome
- Perhaps some others

The only 'issue' with the Alans, is that L70 doesn't have a large presence (if at all) in modern times where the Alans were situated (i.e. Caucasus/North Caucasus)

Thanks for the information Supreeeme.
On FTDNA Block tree, regarding L-70 you can see the following branch participants, and their country of origin:
10 Italy
10 England
8 Germany
4 Spain
4 Poland
3 Armenia, France, GB, Portugal
2 Austria, Russia, Ukraine
1 Norway, Wales, Puerto Rico, Jordan, Turkemistan, Malta, Syria, Denmark, Turkey, Saudi Arabia etc.
If we include downstream participants, Italy is the most representative country, with the 13,5% of all followed by Germany and England.

Best regards

SUPREEEEEME
06-30-2020, 09:59 AM
Thanks for the information Supreeeme.
On FTDNA Block tree, regarding L-70 you can see the following branch participants, and their country of origin:
10 Italy
10 England
8 Germany
4 Spain
4 Poland
3 Armenia, France, GB, Portugal
2 Austria, Russia, Ukraine
1 Norway, Wales, Puerto Rico, Jordan, Turkemistan, Malta, Syria, Denmark, Turkey, Saudi Arabia etc.
If we include downstream participants, Italy is the most representative country, with the 13,5% of all followed by Germany and England.

Best regards

Yes - that's due to modern testing bias. Countries like England and Germany have thousands of people tested on FTDNA making their L70 % miniscule. Even when looking at the Italy project, there are some 2100 members on the project and only 17 L70s (granted, there are other Italian L70s not on that project - reason i never used the figure when making the map- and a fair number are of Jewish descent).

J.delajara
06-30-2020, 03:42 PM
Yes - that's due to modern testing bias. Countries like England and Germany have thousands of people tested on FTDNA making their L70 % miniscule. Even when looking at the Italy project, there are some 2100 members on the project and only 17 L70s (granted, there are other Italian L70s not on that project - reason i never used the figure when making the map- and a fair number are of Jewish descent).

Thanks again Supreeeme. I was aware about the numbers, I just wanted to add some further information, as far as I know, most of Yfull tests are also modern samples, unless they specify them as ancient. If you analyze small sample countries, such as Sweden, Norway and Denmark , you can also find L-70, which is quite strange, considering non of them shows eastern or southern origins, at least declared. This could be useful maybe for Mr. Perrine, considering his Norman past. Regarding Italy, most of the clades under L-70 includes people from different backgrounds and religions, including jewish of course, but not by majority.
Further ancient samples will help us.
Best Regards

Emre Altug
07-03-2020, 06:19 PM
Thanks again Supreeeme. I was aware about the numbers, I just wanted to add some further information, as far as I know, most of Yfull tests are also modern samples, unless they specify them as ancient. If you analyze small sample countries, such as Sweden, Norway and Denmark , you can also find L-70, which is quite strange, considering non of them shows eastern or southern origins, at least declared. This could be useful maybe for Mr. Perrine, considering his Norman past. Regarding Italy, most of the clades under L-70 includes people from different backgrounds and religions, including jewish of course, but not by majority.
Further ancient samples will help us.
Best Regards

Yes, indeed i do have a Swedish match and i have viewed his family tree. He is ethnical Swedish for sure. Also there is a Sicilian match who has his origins from France, and ended up in Sicily with Normans. I have also Scottish, British, German, French, North/Central Italian matches, as well as Greek, Zaza, Turk, Armenian and Talysh and a Saudi(who is the only PH84 out of my 14 matches who are almost all under PF5456). When i view the "Alan migrations" map, it shockingly seems very similar to my specific match distribution. I don't know about the other guys who are also L70. I am talking about my specific case. Maybe we are different since L70 is 6800 years old.

J.delajara
07-03-2020, 09:44 PM
Yes, indeed i do have a Swedish match and i have viewed his family tree. He is ethnical Swedish for sure. Also there is a Sicilian match who has his origins from France, and ended up in Sicily with Normans. I have also Scottish, British, German, French, North/Central Italian matches, as well as Greek, Zaza, Turk, Armenian and Talysh and a Saudi(who is the only PH84 out of my 14 matches who are almost all under PF5456). When i view the "Alan migrations" map, it shockingly seems very similar to my specific match distribution. I don't know about the other guys who are also L70. I am talking about my specific case. Maybe we are different since L70 is 6800 years old.

Thanks Emre, L-70 is a very interesting clade. I think it was born in Anatolia, and afterwards spread on different directions. The only chance to have further answers is to wait for new ancient samples. Regarding its clades, Z435 seams to be Greek or Italiota, there are new samples on Yfull under this clade, from Turkey, Greece, Italy and Cyprus. It was surely spread by romans all over Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. Best Regards

08-01-2020, 11:40 AM
Dear Supreme,

Nice to find my Y DNA on your
My haplogroup is J-BY96345 it is a part of the Y-DNA group J-M318.
It is a small group with living descendants in Tunisia (Djerba, Jewish, Separdic Kohanim) Libya, Malta, Italy and a few in Spain, Portugal.
My ancestors migrated - probably via Switzerland - to the North of Gemany and the North of the Netherlands.


Kind regards,

Hans J. Vos.

harrimir
08-01-2020, 11:58 AM
Hans,
I am not sure if you have a specific family history that says your ancestors migrated through Switzerland, which I do not want to dismiss. But, and you might already be aware of this, many Sephardic Jews migrated en masse directly to the Netherlands after 1492. They made up an essential part of Golden Age Dutch society, from Spinoza to the merchants of Dutch South America.
Cheers!

SUPREEEEEME
08-01-2020, 03:11 PM
Dear Supreme,

Nice to find my Y DNA on your
My haplogroup is J-BY96345 it is a part of the Y-DNA group J-M318.
It is a small group with living descendants in Tunisia (Djerba, Jewish, Separdic Kohanim) Libya, Malta, Italy and a few in Spain, Portugal.
My ancestors migrated - probably via Switzerland - to the North of Gemany and the North of the Netherlands.


Kind regards,

Hans J. Vos.

Hi Hans, I've also found J-M318 in several individuals from Lebanon (assuming FTDNA project admins correctly placed them under this group). I've also found that 5% of Armenians around Lake Van (Eastern Anatolia) belong to J-M318.

Emre Altug
09-12-2020, 12:00 PM
New Egyptian under J-2148*. (Analysis in progress)
New Saudi under J-FGC32147 (VCF)

SUPREEEEEME
09-12-2020, 12:13 PM
New Egyptian under J-2148*. (Analysis in progress)
New Saudi under J-FGC32147 (VCF)

It's interesting that the Egyptian is from the Sinai. The Saudi falls under the clade with Bani Sakher Bedouins. Aside from the Syrian on the YFull tree, there is another Syrian and Iraqi there.

SUPREEEEEME
09-12-2020, 03:04 PM
New Egyptian under J-2148*. (Analysis in progress)
New Saudi under J-FGC32147 (VCF)

The Egyptian is quite an interesting case. YFull has him as J-Z2148* - which is below J-Z435. I've found him on FTDNA. They have him as J-PF5430 (i.e. J-Z423 on YFull) which is above J-Z435. He has taken a BigY. Ultimately, his presence further supports a Levantine origin for J-L70.

J.delajara
09-12-2020, 06:12 PM
It's interesting that the Egyptian is from the Sinai. The Saudi falls under the clade with Bani Sakher Bedouins. Aside from the Syrian on the YFull tree, there is another Syrian and Iraqi there.

Hi Supreeme, the Egyptian on FTDNA is under PF5430, as basal with the Palestinian sample , sharing 39 private variants. Another discrepancy between YFULL and FTDNA, they will probably form a new clade somewhere under PF5430 (Z423). Regards

SUPREEEEEME
09-12-2020, 06:32 PM
Hi Supreeme, the Egyptian on FTDNA is under PF5430, as basal with the Palestinian sample , sharing 39 private variants. Another discrepancy between YFULL and FTDNA, they will probably form a new clade somewhere under PF5430 (Z423). Regards

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few days/weeks. Strange that YFull has the individual as below Z435 while FTDNA has him as above Z435.

J.delajara
09-17-2020, 07:53 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few days/weeks. Strange that YFull has the individual as below Z435 while FTDNA has him as above Z435.

Hi Supreeme. On FTDNA the Egyptian and the Palestinian formed a new subclade under PF5430; FT340863.
Best Regards

leorcooper19
09-19-2020, 01:06 AM
Hi Supreeme. On FTDNA the Egyptian and the Palestinian formed a new subclade under PF5430; FT340863.
Best Regards

I saw that as well. The listed average of 12 private variants for J-FT340863 likely indicates a TMRCA of around 950 CE: (12*-83) + 1940 = 944 CE. I'd guess the range on that is likely +/- 300 years, so definitely a more recent connection relative to the age of J-L70. This obvious connections makes you wonder why YFull would initially place the Egyptian multiple levels downstream. Are we sure it's the same Egyptian?

J.delajara
09-19-2020, 01:41 PM
I saw that as well. The listed average of 12 private variants for J-FT340863 likely indicates a TMRCA of around 950 CE: (12*-83) + 1940 = 944 CE. I'd guess the range on that is likely +/- 300 years, so definitely a more recent connection relative to the age of J-L70. This obvious connections makes you wonder why YFull would initially place the Egyptian multiple levels downstream. Are we sure it's the same Egyptian?

Thanks a lot Leorcooper19. I don't know for sure if it's the same Egyptian, the thing is, it was quite a coincidence that both appear as new on FTDNA and Yfull at the same time. On FTDNA there was no Egyptian on this subclade before. Best Regards

SUPREEEEEME
09-19-2020, 03:13 PM
Been a while since I've posted anything new, so here's something:

There's a Saudi who is J-L70, but negative for Z435. Hopefully this individual will take a BigY test and we will be able to see where he fits in.

Additionally, here's a part of J-L70's tree on FTDNA:
39676

What's interesting, is that J-Z39057 is an Ashkenazi branch (with a large Cohen presence - J-PH2725* on YFull). Their sibling clade, J-F801, has a Syrian. What's even more interesting is J-BY57393 (not on YFull). From looking at the tree, there are only 3 individuals on this branch. Two from the British Isles at J-BY125813, and one unknown at J-BY57393. I've found out who this "unknown" individual is and have confirmed that this individual has taken a BigY, meaning they're basal to this clade. This individual hasn't given much information to go off of, except for a family name. This is where this name is most common:

39677

I'd wager this individual is of Levantine roots. There is another individual who has the exact same sequence (but appears to have only taken a Y37) - unfortunately there is once again little information, except for a family name. Unfortunately there's no distribution map for it, but it appears to be of Middle Eastern origin.

With this in mind, J-PH3882 is starting to look Levantine as a whole.

Emre Altug
09-24-2020, 11:49 AM
The Roman Late Antiquity sample R136 is now processing at YFull. He seems to be located under J-BY242* right now. Wasn't BY242 Jewish ?
https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY242*/

SUPREEEEEME
09-24-2020, 12:16 PM
The Roman Late Antiquity sample R136 is now processing at YFull. He seems to be located under J-BY242* right now. Wasn't BY242 Jewish ?
https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY242*/

I originally thought it was Jewish - but it doesn't appear to be. I did mistakenly include the individual on the first post of this thread as Jewish, confusing it with J-BY268. Surname of the individual is Kalinowski. Of course, there's always a chance of the individual being of Jewish origin - but we'll have to wait for more samples to appear on this branch. The R136 sample does plot in the East Mediterranean and appears to have some degree of Levantine ancestry?

J.delajara
09-24-2020, 05:31 PM
I originally thought it was Jewish - but it doesn't appear to be. I did mistakenly include the individual on the first post of this thread as Jewish, confusing it with J-BY268. Surname of the individual is Kalinowski. Of course, there's always a chance of the individual being of Jewish origin - but we'll have to wait for more samples to appear on this branch. The R136 sample does plot in the East Mediterranean and appears to have some degree Levantine ancestry?

Thanks Supreeme. Indeed R136 plot with East Mediterranean, close to Southern Italians and Greek. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf
Best Regards

J.delajara
09-24-2020, 06:03 PM
I originally thought it was Jewish - but it doesn't appear to be. I did mistakenly include the individual on the first post of this thread as Jewish, confusing it with J-BY268. Surname of the individual is Kalinowski. Of course, there's always a chance of the individual being of Jewish origin - but we'll have to wait for more samples to appear on this branch. The R136 sample does plot in the East Mediterranean and appears to have some degree of Levantine ancestry?

Regarding the Kalinowski family in Ukraine, you can see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcin_Kalinowski
Regards

Emre Altug
09-24-2020, 06:08 PM
R1221 is also now processing at YFull. It's under J-FGC32147 which seems to be Arab-dominated.
https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH185/

J.delajara
09-24-2020, 06:28 PM
R1221 is also now processing at YFull. It's under J-FGC32147 which seems to be Arab-dominated.
https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH185/

Thanks Emre, that is very interesting, because R1221 plots between Northern and Central Italians on the Haplotype cluster of the paper, and today is a Bedouin group. Regards

SUPREEEEEME
09-24-2020, 06:52 PM
Thanks Emre, that is very interesting, because R1221 plots between Northern and Central Italians on the Haplotype cluster of the paper, and today is a Bedouin group. Regards

The sample appears autosomally closest to the modern population of Provence. I imagine the lineage arrived a long time before the Renaissance from the Levant with Imperial Romans (the Bani Skhr Bedouins give a hint to where it spread from, with the Bani Skhr tribe having migrated from the Hijaz to Jordan - which would make it likely that they picked up this branch of J-L70 in Jordan - or somewhere else in the Levant).

J.delajara
09-24-2020, 07:01 PM
The sample appears autosomally closest to the modern population of Provence. I imagine the lineage arrived a long time before the Renaissance from the Levant with Imperial Romans (the Bani Skhr Bedouins give a hint to where it spread from, with the Bani Skhr tribe having migrated from the Hijaz to Jordan - which would make it likely that they picked up this branch of J-L70 in Jordan - or somewhere else in the Levant).

Thanks Supreeme, it's interesting to analyze the TMRCA of this subclade on Yfull. Best regards

SUPREEEEEME
10-16-2020, 11:07 AM
New big news:
J-Z387* has been found in a Turkish Jew. This greatly supports that J-Z387 and downstream clades (like J-L70) originated in the Levant. J-Z387, J-L70, and J-FGC35503 all now have Basal lines in the Levant.

Other news:
- Found an Iraqi whose terminal SNP is J-CTS6061 (which, to my understanding is synonymous with J-CTS3601). He has tested negative for J-PF5456 and J-L1021. This means he's either J-Z44439 or Basal. I'd wager Basal, and will likely form a new clade with other Iraqis.
- Also found a J-Z435- Mexican. Surname is Cervantes - which appears to be associated with Sephardic roots.

J.delajara
10-16-2020, 03:31 PM
New big news:
J-Z387* has been found in a Turkish Jew. This greatly supports that J-Z387 and downstream clades (like J-L70) originated in the Levant. J-Z387, J-L70, and J-FGC35503 all now have Basal lines in the Levant.

Other news:
- Found an Iraqi whose terminal SNP is J-CTS6061 (which, to my understanding is synonymous with J-CTS3601). He has tested negative for J-PF5456 and J-L1021. This means he's either J-Z44439 or Basal. I'd wager Basal, and will likely form a new clade with other Iraqis.
- Also found a J-Z435- Mexican. Surname is Cervantes - which appears to be associated with Sephardic roots.

Thanks for the information Supreeme. Just one comment, Cervantes is not a Sephardic surname, It is supposed to be a toponymic surname from Galicia and/or León. As many other surnames, it could have been used by Sephardic, as well, but not only by them. Regards

harrimir
10-16-2020, 03:46 PM
Honestly with how clear it has become that L70 and its downclade branches originated amongst a population ancestral primarily to Jews and bedouin Arabs... It kindof makes me doubt the "greeks brought it to southern italy" idea.

J.delajara
10-16-2020, 04:10 PM
Honestly with how clear it has become that L70 and its downclade branches originated amongst a population ancestral primarily to Jews and bedouin Arabs... It kindof makes me doubt the "greeks brought it to southern italy" idea.

Thanks for your comment Harrimir. You've seen all the arguments we've been discussing this period, and you know my position clearly. For me, and some others, such as Prof. Finocchio and his team, we do think Greek brought this clade to Southern Italy, according to the evidence we have until now, and that of course is not contradictory with the origin of L-70. Although I still think is Anatolic in origin, but as I said on my last posts on other threats, let's wait for further ancient samples to have a clearer picture, and I'm not close of course, to change my view. Regards

Emre Altug
10-27-2020, 08:40 AM
New Syrian sample under J-FGC32147(J-Z2177 -> PH185) who is from Banu Tamim tribe.

SUPREEEEEME
10-27-2020, 09:00 AM
New Syrian sample under J-FGC32147(J-Z2177 -> PH185) who is from Banu Tamim tribe.

Yes - he will likely form a clade at some point with the Saudi, who forms a clade with him on FTDNA. There is another Syrian on FTDNA with this group based on STRs but hasn't undergone sufficient testing. It seems most of the J-L70 Syrians tested at FTDNA are under Z2177 - save for one who is J-F801.

Emre Altug
10-27-2020, 09:34 AM
Yes - he will likely form a clade at some point with the Saudi, who forms a clade with him on FTDNA. There is another Syrian on FTDNA with this group based on STRs but hasn't undergone sufficient testing. It seems most of the J-L70 Syrians tested at FTDNA are under Z2177 - save for one who is J-F801.

I also have a 37 Marker Distance 2 Syrian (Latakia) match from FTDNA, i contacted him but he didn't reply. He only took a 37 marker test. He's probably the same clade with me (J-Z2177->PH84).

SUPREEEEEME
10-27-2020, 09:40 AM
I also have a 37 Marker Distance 2 Syrian (Latakia) match from FTDNA, i contacted him but he didn't reply. He only took a 37 marker test. He's probably the same clade with me (J-Z2177->PH84).

Is your match kit B429879?

Emre Altug
10-27-2020, 01:45 PM
Is your match kit B429879?

I can't see his kit nr., and his country is not shown. i don't think he is in a project either. just guessed from his name, googled it :)

SUPREEEEEME
10-27-2020, 01:49 PM
I can't see his kit nr., and his country is not shown. i don't think he is in a project either. just guessed from his name, googled it :)

Yeah - I think you're matching a different kit to the one I posted. While from Latakia, the kit I posted is only 12 markers. I imagine there are quite a few J-L70 kits from the Middle East that aren't SNP tested or on projects, with the only way to find them being through matching.

I have found quite a few Middle Eastern J-L70 kits where they've put their country of origin as unknown.

J.delajara
10-27-2020, 01:53 PM
Yes - he will likely form a clade at some point with the Saudi, who forms a clade with him on FTDNA. There is another Syrian on FTDNA with this group based on STRs but hasn't undergone sufficient testing. It seems most of the J-L70 Syrians tested at FTDNA are under Z2177 - save for one who is J-F801.

Good day Supreeme and Emre. On YFULL live tree, the Saudi and both Syrian samples ( from the same geographical area, Dayr Az Sawr) are considered basal to FGC32147, and as you said, they probably will form a new clade, such as the Italian Ranaissance sample and the unknown person, both under Z32056, a new subclade of FGC32147.
Best Regards

Emre Altug
11-02-2020, 10:52 AM
New sample from Kuwait under J-FGC31975 (J-2148->J-F801)

SUPREEEEEME
11-02-2020, 11:59 AM
New sample from Kuwait under J-FGC31975 (J-2148->J-F801)

A very cool find - that "neck of the woods" (i.e. J-PH3882) appears to be strongly Middle Eastern, with a Syrian (and now Kuwaiti) under J-F801, a Jewish (Cohen) branch under J-Z39057, and a Basal Middle Eastern person at J-BY57393.

J.delajara
11-07-2020, 01:46 PM
Good day to everyone. A new Armenian sample is included under L-70 tree on Yfull. He is basal at BY242, together with the kalinowsky family and the Hellenic-Roman from San Marcellino in Rome ( V century AD) his path is: PF5456/Y24651/Z40772/BY242.

SUPREEEEEME
11-07-2020, 02:37 PM
Good day to everyone. A new Armenian sample is included under L-70 tree on Yfull. He is basal at BY242, together with the kalinowsky family and the Hellenic-Roman from San Marcellino in Rome ( V century AD) his path is: PF5456/Y24651/Z40772/BY242.

Good to see another Near Eastern flag under J-CTS3601. Unfortunately, very few J-CTS3601 Near Easterners have taken BigYs (or equivalent) to begin with. There are a large number of them on FTDNA - they just haven't tested deep enough.

J.delajara
11-07-2020, 03:06 PM
Good to see another Near Eastern flag under J-CTS3601. Unfortunately, very few J-CTS3601 Near Easterners have taken BigYs (or equivalent) to begin with. There are a large number of them on FTDNA - they just haven't tested deep enough.

Thanks Supreeeme. Is quite interesting to underline, that the TMRCA of this subclade is 1200 ybp (according to Yfull) more or less 800 AD, considering that one sample is from the Hellenic-Roman, buried on the V Century AD, according to the Antonio paper, is a bit strange. Best Regards

Emre Altug
11-09-2020, 12:07 PM
I am so impatient for the new version of YFull tree. We formed a new branch (J-Y181566) with the Saudi Arabian. I wonder about the TMRCA. If it's more than 2500, it will not help me at all.

SUPREEEEEME
11-19-2020, 06:56 AM
One of the Jordanian J-L70's on FTDNA has been SNP tested for J-FT63319. It could be the same person as the J-L70* on YFull, but we'll have to wait and see.

J.delajara
11-19-2020, 11:12 PM
One of the Jordanian J-L70's on FTDNA has been SNP tested for J-FT63319. It could be the same person as the J-L70* on YFull, but we'll have to wait and see.

Hi Supreeeme, it seems is the same person, that made a BigY700, that's why on FTDNA they found him positive to J-FT63319. You can see now that on Yfull he has two ID's, YF11643 and YF79300. Regards

SUPREEEEEME
11-20-2020, 05:05 AM
Hi Supreeeme, it seems is the same person, that made a BigY700, that's why on FTDNA they found him positive to J-FT63319. You can see now that on Yfull he has two ID's, YF11643 and YF79300. Regards

Thanks - can see that on the YFull tree now

Emre Altug
12-02-2020, 10:54 AM
Sample from Czech has been added under J-Z39494. Probably Ashkenazi regarding his ancestors name and same subclade with the other Ashkenazis

SUPREEEEEME
12-02-2020, 11:51 AM
Sample from Czech has been added under J-Z39494. Probably Ashkenazi regarding his ancestors name and same subclade with the other Ashkenazis

Yes, falls under one of the many Jewish branches within J-L70

SUPREEEEEME
12-27-2020, 07:34 AM
Been a while since I've posted anything new:

- A Saudi is Basal to J-Z2177>J-FGC52108. The surname suggests a Palestinian origin. In terms of autosomal results, <5% Arabian, >60% Levantine (mostly Southern). Will likely form a new clade with an individual of the same family name.
- The J-Z2177>J-PH185* Saudi has formed a new clade with an unknown individual J-PH185>J-FT20070
- Many Syrian and Saudi L70's have been tested within the last 1-2 months (it seems), all from the Bani Tamim tribe. All J-PH185>J-FGC24630 (based on STRs, no SNP testing done).
- From Eupedia: "Cole, Jim, John, and Bob Younger were notable members of the 19th-century James-Younger gang of American outlaws, which also included Jesse James. Their paternal haplogroup was identified by the Younger DNA Project based on the results of five participants with solid genealogical records. Their deep clade is downstream of L25 > L70 > Z2177 > PH185." One of them appears to have undergone a BigY, and is Basal to the Italian Converso Jewish lineage. Amusing that these outlaws were likely of Jewish descent.

J Man
12-28-2020, 04:29 PM
Been a while since I've posted anything new:

- A Saudi is Basal to J-Z2177>J-FGC52108. The surname suggests a Palestinian origin. In terms of autosomal results, <5% Arabian, >60% Levantine (mostly Southern). Will likely form a new clade with an individual of the same family name.
- The J-Z2177>J-PH185* Saudi has formed a new clade with an unknown individual J-PH185>J-FT20070
- Many Syrian and Saudi L70's have been tested within the last 1-2 months (it seems), all from the Bani Tamim tribe. All J-PH185>J-FGC24630 (based on STRs, no SNP testing done).
- From Eupedia: "Cole, Jim, John, and Bob Younger were notable members of the 19th-century James-Younger gang of American outlaws, which also included Jesse James. Their paternal haplogroup was identified by the Younger DNA Project based on the results of five participants with solid genealogical records. Their deep clade is downstream of L25 > L70 > Z2177 > PH185." One of them appears to have undergone a BigY, and is Basal to the Italian Converso Jewish lineage. Amusing that these outlaws were likely of Jewish descent.

There are Bani Tamim tribe J2a-L70 samples from Syria as well then?

SUPREEEEEME
12-28-2020, 05:13 PM
There are Bani Tamim tribe J2a-L70 samples from Syria as well then?

Yes!

Both of these individuals are Bani Tamim - and this is probably where they will all fall:
https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY130571/

All of these kits should be on page 2 of the results page of this project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/wayeel/about/background

Emre Altug
01-11-2021, 05:30 PM
New sample from Azores/Portugal under J-FGC58748* (which is under PF5456) clusterred with the Swedish from Örebrö, we'll see where he'll fit eventually.
There's also 2 Azoreans under J-FT51679 and 2 more under J-PF257.
Total 5 Azoreans under J-L70 according to YFULL only.
Does anyone know anything about the history of migrations to Azores ?

SUPREEEEEME
01-11-2021, 05:44 PM
New sample from Azores/Portugal under J-FGC58748* (which is under PF5456) clusterred with the Swedish from Örebrö, we'll see where he'll fit eventually.
There's also 2 Azoreans under J-FT51679 and 2 more under J-PF257.
Total 5 Azoreans under J-L70 according to YFULL only.
Does anyone know anything about the history of migrations to Azores ?

These young Azorean branches are very similar to those in other MENA clades, specifically such as J-BY143137 and J-ZS8811. The origins of these broader branches are likely similar to that of J-L70 (i.e. Levantine).

I would hazard a guess that these Azorean branches within J-L70 can be associated with the Phoenicians - it seems to the most likely scenario.

J.delajara
01-12-2021, 02:13 PM
New sample from Azores/Portugal under J-FGC58748* (which is under PF5456) clusterred with the Swedish from Örebrö, we'll see where he'll fit eventually.
There's also 2 Azoreans under J-FT51679 and 2 more under J-PF257.
Total 5 Azoreans under J-L70 according to YFULL only.
Does anyone know anything about the history of migrations to Azores ?

Hi Emre, thanks for the information. The Azores were permanently colonized by Portuguese settlers from the XV's century. There is evidence of previous human settlements, but they were not inhabited when Portuguese navigators arrived to the islands. So, until we have further news from the ancient origin of L70 in Portugal, we won't have an answer, although the origin could be different regarding Z39282 and FGC58748. The interesting aspect, is that this new Portuguese person, has a common male ancestor with the Swedish (according to YFULL) 2300 Ybp. The oldest L70 we have in Scandinavia is from a Viking ( basal to FGC32690), maybe his origin could help us more. Best Regards

davit
01-12-2021, 02:21 PM
Hi Emre, thanks for the information. The Azores were permanently colonized by Portuguese settlers from the XV's century. There is evidence of previous human settlements, but they were not inhabited when Portuguese navigators arrived to the islands. So, until we have further news from the ancient origin of L70 in Portugal, we won't have an answer, although the origin could be different regarding Z39282 and FGC58748. The interesting aspect, is that this new Portuguese person, has a common male ancestor with the Swedish (according to YFULL) 2300 Ybp. The oldest L70 we have in Scandinavia is from a Viking ( basal to FGC32690), maybe his origin could help us more. Best Regards

Who would the previous human settlements have belonged to?

J.delajara
01-12-2021, 02:43 PM
Who would the previous human settlements have belonged to?

There is no evidence, as far as I know, of the culture of those people. The islands were probably known already to sailors, at least from the XIII's century. The hypothesis of previos inhabitants, at least 150 years before the Portuguese settlers, was made by some scientists on a paper published on 2017, based on pollen and vegetation evolution on the island, the paper is called Vegetation and landscape dynamics under natural and anthropogenic forcing on the Azores Islands: A 700-year pollen record from the Săo Miguel Island and it could be read on: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277379116305753

Emre Altug
01-12-2021, 05:47 PM
Hi Emre, thanks for the information. The Azores were permanently colonized by Portuguese settlers from the XV's century. There is evidence of previous human settlements, but they were not inhabited when Portuguese navigators arrived to the islands. So, until we have further news from the ancient origin of L70 in Portugal, we won't have an answer, although the origin could be different regarding Z39282 and FGC58748. The interesting aspect, is that this new Portuguese person, has a common male ancestor with the Swedish (according to YFULL) 2300 Ybp. The oldest L70 we have in Scandinavia is from a Viking ( basal to FGC32690), maybe his origin could help us more. Best Regards

When YFull matches were shown before the last update about the ages, i could see the information of the Portuguese. One of them might have a Dutchman origin according to his surname (i did a little research). But he may also be native Portuguese.
Regarding the Azorean clustering with the Swedish, the question arises, does the ancestors of the Swedish from Örebro originate from the Mediterranean ?
The VK42 sample is said to have partly Southern European origin, so his paternal line might also belong to Med. But can't be sure though. Since there's also some samples of L70 scattered in Scandinavia.

SUPREEEEEME
01-12-2021, 06:15 PM
When YFull matches were shown before the last update about the ages, i could see the information of the Portuguese. One of them might have a Dutchman origin according to his surname (i did a little research). But he may also be native Portuguese.
Regarding the Azorean clustering with the Swedish, the question arises, does the ancestors of the Swedish from Örebro originate from the Mediterranean ?
The VK42 sample is said to have partly Southern European origin, so his paternal line might also belong to Med. But can't be sure though. Since there's also some samples of L70 scattered in Scandinavia.

Given what we know of J-L70, the ancestor of this Viking almost certainly came from the Mediterranean (his autosomal ancestry very much supports this as well). It is worth noting that J-L70 wasn't the only Middle Eastern clade to show up in the Viking paper.

Most J-L70 in these parts of Europe (Germanic Europe, the British Isles, Scandinavia) is relatively recent (i.e. it's very likely they arrived in these regions earliest during the Roman Empire, and even then, we can see some deeper clades are of Jewish origin etc...). Additionally, J-L70 is incredibly rare in Scandinavia - in countries like Sweden and Norway, J-L70 doesn't even reach 0.1% of their total population.

Going back to the Azorean clades, one of these clades - J-Y99995 - could very likely be of Jewish origin given the age of J-Z39282 and the tradition of those within J-M318. A Dutch ancestor could also easily be linked to Sephardic Jews.

J.delajara
01-12-2021, 07:59 PM
When YFull matches were shown before the last update about the ages, i could see the information of the Portuguese. One of them might have a Dutchman origin according to his surname (i did a little research). But he may also be native Portuguese.
Regarding the Azorean clustering with the Swedish, the question arises, does the ancestors of the Swedish from Örebro originate from the Mediterranean ?
The VK42 sample is said to have partly Southern European origin, so his paternal line might also belong to Med. But can't be sure though. Since there's also some samples of L70 scattered in Scandinavia.

Thanks Emre, I indeed underline the origin of this Viking sample, because is in part Mediterranean, specifically close to southern Italians, maybe there is the clue.

SUPREEEEEME
01-15-2021, 04:01 PM
NEW Sicilian from Palermo

https://yfull.com/tree/J-S10971/

Emre Altug
01-15-2021, 05:38 PM
NEW Sicilian from Palermo

https://yfull.com/tree/J-S10971/
Thanks for that. Couldn't see the flag right now and i was wondering about the country. Mr. Delajara has a new match congrats :)

J.delajara
01-15-2021, 05:58 PM
Thanks for that. Couldn't see the flag right now and i was wondering about the country. Mr. Delajara has a new match congrats :)

Many Thanks Emre, yes indeed. !!

Emre Altug
01-16-2021, 11:15 AM
YF80672 NEW Sicilian from Catania under J-Z2177(Z2177*,FT51679*)

SUPREEEEEME
01-16-2021, 12:07 PM
YF80672 NEW Sicilian from Catania under J-Z2177(Z2177*,FT51679*)

I'll double-check with Principe, but this Sicilian might be the one at J-FGC63655 on FTDNA.

We have Principe to thank for these Sicilian uploads to YFull.

Emre Altug
01-19-2021, 08:55 AM
New sample under J-FGC52112(under Z2177) but the country is unknown for now, anyone knows where's he from ?
By the way, come on man ! I'm waiting some new samples under PH84 or even FT51679

SUPREEEEEME
01-19-2021, 09:59 AM
New sample under J-FGC52112(under Z2177) but the country is unknown for now, anyone knows where's he from ?
By the way, come on man ! I'm waiting some new samples under PH84 or even FT51679

I assume it's one of the Greek kits, but we will have to wait and see.

Emre Altug
01-22-2021, 06:43 PM
I was searching for Bosnian DNA. I checked Bosnian DNA project map and out of 48 J2a samples, 14 of them were L70. (%29.2)
There are still J-M172 or J-L26 unknown subclades. I don't know how many people do take test in Bosnia but they have a potential for L70.
Majority of them are Z2177
Keep in mind that I2, E-V13, R1a and J2b are still overrunning
Here's my reference; https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1OsAy-5BiJzGcHTEtF-00FYJsjwM&ll=45.08558140000002%2C18.028736099999993&z=8
The test taker families who were L70+
-Bashov (Pomak)
-Bralić
-Delić
-Ejupi (Gorani)
-Ferizovic
-Hadrović
-Hadžimusić
-Haliti (Gorani)
-Hasanbašić
-Nurković (x3)
-Sijarić
-Žepčan

SUPREEEEEME
01-22-2021, 06:53 PM
I was searching for Bosnian DNA. I checked Bosnian DNA project map and out of 48 J2a samples, 14 of them were L70. (%29.2)
There are still J-M172 or J-L26 unknown subclades. I don't know how many people do take test in Bosnia but they have a potential for L70.
Majority of them are Z2177
Keep in mind that I2,E-V13 or J2b are still overrunning
Here's my reference; https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1OsAy-5BiJzGcHTEtF-00FYJsjwM&ll=45.08558140000002%2C18.028736099999993&z=8
The test taker families who were L70+
-Bashov (Pomak)
-Bralić
-Delić
-Ejupi (Gorani)
-Ferizovic
-Hadrović
-Hadžimusić
-Haliti (Gorani)
-Hasanbašić
-Nurković (x3)
-Sijarić
-Žepčan

A pity none are FTDNA tested - and a shame that 23andMe's database isn't publicly available to browse in some form. I've found plenty of Palestinians, Lebanese Christians, Syrians, Bukharan Jews, Mountain Jews, and North African Sephardic Jews who are J-L70 through them.

SUPREEEEEME
01-22-2021, 06:55 PM
"NEW"

https://yfull.com/tree/J-S10971/

One of the kits has updated its flag to Saudi Arabia. Based on matches, there might be an Eastern Sephardic Jew in this branch as well, with the Avotaynu Project.

Emre Altug
01-22-2021, 07:08 PM
A pity none are FTDNA tested - and a shame that 23andMe's database isn't publicly available to browse in some form. I've found plenty of Palestinians, Lebanese Christians, Syrians, Bukharan Jews, Mountain Jews, and North African Sephardic Jews who are J-L70 through them.
What a shame, these genealogy testing companies should share the haplogroups and corresponding country of origins without exposing the kit owner information
I would also suggest FTDNA to open their Y-STR database as well. And should force people to specify their country of origin. Lot of unknowns in FTDNA database.

altvred
01-22-2021, 07:30 PM
What a shame, these genealogy testing companies should share the haplogroups and corresponding country of origins without exposing the kit owner information
I would also suggest FTDNA to open their Y-STR database as well. And should force people to specify their country of origin. Lot of unknowns in FTDNA database.

This really ticks me off whenever I encounter it. I have zero Y-STR matches beyond 12-markers on FTDNA, the only one I encountered that was significantly close to me was a 10-step distance 111-marker kit on a project page. But no Paternal ancestors Name or even Country listed for said kit... I mean, if it isn't a case of the person being too lazy to update it and it's some privacy concern of his, then why even bother getting tested and joining public projects in the first place? I don't get it.

J.delajara
01-22-2021, 08:04 PM
Hello to all of you. I think one important conclusion we can begin to raise at this point, is that L70 is a wide spread clade. From Scotland to Saudi Arabia, and from Anatolia to Portugal. Another important conclusion is that the Mediterranean is indeed an relevant place for L70's, and probably played an important role on its clades history. What I'm almost certain is that different cultures helped to its expansion, and ancient dna will help us to have a clearer picture. Best regards to all of you, specially to Supreeme and Emre and to all other L70's, our history is really fascinating...