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Agamemnon
02-26-2020, 05:59 PM
Just added VIL007: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkOvU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G&usp=sharing

I'll update it as more results come in.

Shamash
02-26-2020, 09:06 PM
Thanks Agamemnon but the number of ancient P58-samples so far is deplorable.

Agamemnon
02-26-2020, 09:19 PM
Thanks Agamemnon but the number of ancient P58-samples so far is deplorable.

Better than nothing, I'd say :P

But yes, the sample count (11 individuals) is frustratingly small... That being said, we should expect this to increase quite substantially as more ancient data from the Middle East and the Mediterranean is analysed. Personally, I don't think we'll have to wait too long for that, it's even possible that we'll have reached a hundred individuals by the end of this decade.

The problem as always is that, with very few exceptions, the ancient populations that are bound to have carried high amounts of P58 lineages came from areas that are now unstable at best (if not outright war zones). The fact that we already have a dozen or so samples is very much amazing and encouraging, especially considering the general lack of attention the Middle East, North Africa and the Mediterranean have received in terms of ancient sampling until very recently.

I would certainly like to see more ancient samples from the Fertile Crescent dating back to the Pottery Neolithic, I strongly suspect this was a crucial period in the lineage's history.

Agamemnon
05-29-2020, 10:49 AM
The samples from Skourtianoti et al. have been added to the map (https://www.google.com/maps/d/drive?state=%7B%22ids%22%3A%5B%221yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkO vU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G%22%5D%2C%22action%22%3A%22open%22%2C%22userId%22 %3A%22108213545188297672475%22%7D&usp=sharing) because of the half-decent Y-SNP calls.

The samples from Agranat-Tamir et al. and Haber et al. will be added once we get hold of the BAM files and the analysis is refined. The samples I've just added will also be updated accordingly.

Shamash
05-30-2020, 10:29 AM
The samples from Skourtianoti et al. have been added to the map (https://www.google.com/maps/d/drive?state=%7B%22ids%22%3A%5B%221yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkO vU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G%22%5D%2C%22action%22%3A%22open%22%2C%22userId%22 %3A%22108213545188297672475%22%7D&usp=sharing) because of the half-decent Y-SNP calls.

The samples from Agranat-Tamir et al. and Haber et al. will be added once we get hold of the BAM files and the analysis is refined. The samples I've just added will also be updated accordingly.

I can't wait for the BAM files to be checked for SNPs! Last but not least J1 takes its place! Only Mesopotamia is still terra incognita but I am quite confident that the Caucasus/Zagros Chalcolithic component will eventually turn out Mesopotamian.

Agamemnon
05-30-2020, 08:02 PM
Haber et al. samples added (https://www.google.com/maps/d/drive?state=%7B%22ids%22%3A%5B%221yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkO vU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G%22%5D%2C%22action%22%3A%22open%22%2C%22userId%22 %3A%22108213545188297672475%22%7D&usp=sharing). All under YSC76 (hope you're reading this, Ilgar)!


I can't wait for the BAM files to be checked for SNPs! Last but not least J1 takes its place! Only Mesopotamia is still terra incognita but I am quite confident that the Caucasus/Zagros Chalcolithic component will eventually turn out Mesopotamian.

I think we'll be seeing Mesopotamian data soon enough, so do not despair.

lifeisdandy
06-06-2020, 11:34 PM
I just saw a very rare basal offshoot of j1-p58 who is just upstream of me is from Iraq ����

Yaroslav
06-07-2020, 12:59 AM
Agamemnon, there are also the following J1s from aDNA:

1. Fregel et al. 2009 Demographic history of Canary Islands male gene-pool: replacement of native lineages by European (https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-9-181)

Tenerife (2210 60 to 1720 60 BP),

Gomera (1743 40 to 1493 40 BP),

Hierro (1740 50 to 970 50 BP)

Gran Canaria (1410 60 to 750 60 BP)

Seem to be the first J1s found among ancient DNA samples.

2. Wang et al. 2018 The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/16/322347)

MK5008.B0101 Marinskaya 5 Late Maykop (3364-3107 calBCE)

Here are his SNP calls (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wkLjTA856nW6On8Q10U-WrhyTBWlwCVdK6AMQFCfIaw/edit#gid=202340943).

Five positive SNP calls of J1 level:

J1 YSC0001287/CTS7598/PF4743+
J1 PF4740/M497+
J1 S13025/FGC3685+
J1 CTS3953/PF4711+
J1 CTS7412/PF4742+

Negative or no calls for SNPs downstream from J1 level including P58 negative and L862 negative.

Agamemnon
06-07-2020, 02:29 PM
Thanks for that Yaroslav, MK5008.B0101 has been added (https://www.google.com/maps/d/drive?state=%7B%22ids%22%3A%5B%221yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkO vU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G%22%5D%2C%22action%22%3A%22open%22%2C%22userId%22 %3A%22108213545188297672475%22%7D&usp=sharing).

I am well aware of the Guanche samples from Fregel et al. (and have been for a long time), not sure I want to include them as they're a bit all over the place. Adding them either way.

Yaroslav
06-07-2020, 02:57 PM
I am well aware of the Guanche samples from Fregel et al. (and have been for a long time)

They seem to be the first J1s found in ancient DNA :)

It's a pity there was not deeper SNP testing. It would be interesting to know what branch could they belong to and the way they inherited it. Their time predates the Arab expansion so they could be either from some very old prehistoric branch or perhaps got their J1 from the Phoenicians as a variant.

lifeisdandy
06-07-2020, 08:11 PM
Thanks for that Yaroslav, MK5008.B0101 has been added (https://www.google.com/maps/d/drive?state=%7B%22ids%22%3A%5B%221yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkO vU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G%22%5D%2C%22action%22%3A%22open%22%2C%22userId%22 %3A%22108213545188297672475%22%7D&usp=sharing).

I am well aware of the Guanche samples from Fregel et al. (and have been for a long time), not sure I want to include them as they're a bit all over the place. Adding them either way.

I'm trying to pm you but messages are full. So the iraqi guy I mentioned is also a rare basal offshoot branch from j1-p58 and my branch descends from his. What does this mean?

RCO
06-07-2020, 10:58 PM
I'm trying to pm you but messages are full. So the iraqi guy I mentioned is also a rare basal offshoot branch from j1-p58 and my branch descends from his. What does this mean?

You are sharing only four SNPs with the Iraqi J-ZS12473, FT206314, FT245215, ZS12519 and he has 97 private variants, so your lines divided a long time ago probably close to the birth of P58 somewhere close to modern Iraq.
I am from a basal J1 Northern branch and we have two "Iranian" Iraqi FGC6064.

lifeisdandy
06-08-2020, 10:35 PM
You are sharing only four SNPs with the Iraqi J-ZS12473, FT206314, FT245215, ZS12519 and he has 97 private variants, so your lines divided a long time ago probably close to the birth of P58 somewhere close to modern Iraq.
I am from a basal J1 Northern branch and we have two "Iranian" Iraqi FGC6064.

yes so i got more info...

This is best written chronologically within context:

P58 (Northern Levant) TMRCA around 8,400 years before present. This location is confirmed with archaeological samples.

>

J-ZS12473 (Now has 3 downstream locations, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq) TMRCA artound 7,400 years before present.

> ZS12454 (This is your branch, It has the Saudi sample as well) TMRCA around 2,400 years before present.

Jatt1
06-08-2020, 10:47 PM
yes so i got more info...

This is best written chronologically within context:

P58 (Northern Levant) TMRCA around 8,400 years before present. This location is confirmed with archaeological samples.

>

J-ZS12473 (Now has 3 downstream locations, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq) TMRCA artound 7,400 years before present.

> ZS12454 (This is your branch, It has the Saudi sample as well) TMRCA around 2,400 years before present.

From Mesopotamia to Saudi and Egyptians be my guess.

lifeisdandy
06-10-2020, 11:18 PM
From Mesopotamia to Saudi and Egyptians be my guess.

yes a j1 expert confirmed the migration route for me...iraq - saudi and then to egypt...origin of my cluster is saudi arabia based on what we know now.

Robvg197
09-08-2020, 02:30 PM
I begun a map back in 2017... https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1lIgW0PYocrT-vEkg2RKodHEPTZ0&ll=28.32085593333082%2C70.53254022432051&z=4

and it's excel file with papers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UIsm2p9DllrSoes0aigLTk9Xhwmb52JNiGfwUICBSbg/edit#gid=0

If there are errors please report them especially concerning the ancient samples.

Yaroslav
02-18-2021, 06:36 AM
Dear Agamemnon, I see sample I18520 (J1a2a1a2d2b2b2-YSC0000234) from Sirak et al. 2021, Social stratification without genetic differentiation at the site of Kulubnarti in Christian Period Nubia (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.17.431423v1) has appeared on your map.

What about sample I6257 (J1a2b2b-BY94) from the same S Cemetery in Kulubnarti, Nubia?

Agamemnon
02-18-2021, 02:35 PM
Dear Agamemnon, I see sample I18520 (J1a2a1a2d2b2b2-YSC0000234) from Sirak et al. 2021, Social stratification without genetic differentiation at the site of Kulubnarti in Christian Period Nubia (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.17.431423v1) has appeared on your map.

What about sample I6257 (J1a2b2b-BY94) from the same S Cemetery in Kulubnarti, Nubia?

They're both on the map, check "Middle Ages" on the list. Likewise, you can also find BA (Canaanite) Megiddo on the list, but if you click on Megiddo on the map you'll get the Iron Age (Israelite) sample instead, same issue with Beirut IA III, that's because of the different layers.

patrizio22
02-21-2021, 07:20 PM
Better than nothing, I'd say :P

But yes, the sample count (11 individuals) is frustratingly small... That being said, we should expect this to increase quite substantially as more ancient data from the Middle East and the Mediterranean is analysed. Personally, I don't think we'll have to wait too long for that, it's even possible that we'll have reached a hundred individuals by the end of this decade.

The problem as always is that, with very few exceptions, the ancient populations that are bound to have carried high amounts of P58 lineages came from areas that are now unstable at best (if not outright war zones). The fact that we already have a dozen or so samples is very much amazing and encouraging, especially considering the general lack of attention the Middle East, North Africa and the Mediterranean have received in terms of ancient sampling until very recently.

I would certainly like to see more ancient samples from the Fertile Crescent dating back to the Pottery Neolithic, I strongly suspect this was a crucial period in the lineage's history.

Hello there. Where do you think the different branches of J-L858 appeared? All in the Levant? Thanks

Agamemnon
02-23-2021, 07:35 PM
Hello there. Where do you think the different branches of J-L858 appeared? All in the Levant? Thanks

L858 is bound to have originated in the southern Levant, its different branches seem to closely mirror the Central branch of the Semitic language family. Proto-Central Semitic (PCS) started out as a dialect continuum and was possibly spoken over a very large area extending from the Central Levant to the Tihama coast of Western Arabia, so while L858's branches are likely to have originated in the Levant, the sub-branches immediately downstream (S21237, BY74, ZS1711, etc) might have originated anywhere in the large area I mentioned. As far as your branch is of concern however, considering its basal position under L858, a Levantine origin makes the most sense.

Squad
02-26-2021, 07:42 AM
yes so i got more info...

This is best written chronologically within context:

P58 (Northern Levant) TMRCA around 8,400 years before present. This location is confirmed with archaeological samples.

>

J-ZS12473 (Now has 3 downstream locations, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq) TMRCA artound 7,400 years before present.

> ZS12454 (This is your branch, It has the Saudi sample as well) TMRCA around 2,400 years before present.

Lol nothing is confirmed at all. P58 likely originated in Mesopotamia/Iran or Arabia