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R.Rocca
01-31-2014, 07:12 PM
This paper is due out this year, and while not specifically about U152, it has an interesting U152 reference (highlighted in the text). Of course U152 STRs in L2, Z36 and Z192 look like typical WAMH (Z56 not so much). The only sample in the FTDNA project in the "Liguri Apuani" homeland is Z36+ (Paolini), so one would expect that the displaced U152 of Benevento would also be Z36. The only sample from Benevento (Goglia) has not been tested further than U152.

Capocasa et al. (2014) Linguistic, geographic and genetic isolation: a collaborative study of Italian populations (ahead of print)
http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Contents/2014vol92/Capocasa/Capocasa.pdf


The hypothesis of a genetic legacy between Ligures Apuani and present Apuan and Samnite isolates (Ligures Legacy Model, LLM) was tested by the RU of the University of Pisa through the genetic characterization of uni-linear markers in a sample of unrelated donors from the communities of Vagli (Province of Lucca) and Circello (Province of Benevento) selected according to founder surnames. Vagli is located in the core of the area which has many archeological records linked to Ligures Apuani. Its elder inhabitants still speak a language characterized by a number of linguistic relicts (Ambrosi, 1956; Guazzelli, 2001). Circello lays in close proximity to the remains of Macchia, the town in the Samnium around which the deported Ligures (L. Baebiani) were forced to settle in 180 BC (Patterson, 2009).

A slight reduction of HD at both mtDNA and Y Chromosome has been observed for Vagli (0.948 and 0.984) and Circello (0.960 and 0.975) relative to the neighbouring populations of Piana di Lucca (0.983 and 0.999) and Benevento (0.989 and 1.000). As expected for communities of Indo-European ancestry, usually practicing prevalence of female vs male mobility (patrilocal), genetic distances based on mtDNA are weaker discriminators than distances based on MSY haplotypes (see Supplementary Tab. S1). Preliminary comparative assessments of MSY profiles suggest that the diversity of Apuans might be due to an excess of R-U152 haplotypes, whose diffusion in Italy is thought to coincide with the diffusion of Ligures cultural features in the Middle-Late Bronze Age (Bertoncini et al., 2012).

As a whole, the two communities under study (Vagli and Circello) showed a genetic pattern which is compatible with a long history of isolation but also with quite diverging microevolutionary histories after contacts implied by the LLM. As a more direct test of a genetic continuum with Ligures tribes (Fig. 4), we assessed whether an enrichment of matches compatible with the Titus Livius deportation hypothesis is detectable when comparing any MSY haplotype of the local population (Vagli) with haplotypes of both, the putative displaced (Circello) and the open Samnite population (Benevento). The enrichment of LLM-compatible matches in the Vagli-Circello curve totaled about 80% and was extremely statistically significant (Fisher exact test, p<0.0001).

The hypothesis of direct descent of the resident males in the Apuan and in the Circello area from members of Ligures tribes, who escaped deportation, cannot be ruled out. Further data from wider samples and haplogroup diagnostic markers, as well as more extensive simulation analyses will help achieve more robust inferences. Nonetheless, our case study shows that even mild geographical and cultural isolation may lead to the preservation of a long genetic thread connecting present populations to ancient layers of pre-Roman Italy. As a corollary, it suggests that many isolated Italian communities other than Northern Apennine ones may escape simplistic classification schemes (i.e. linguistic vs geographic isolate), owing to the gradual fringing and recent oblivion of a common ancient cultural identity. Finally, our study highlights the usefulness of accurate non random genetic samplings to uncover genetic layers obscured by recent reshufflings within and among human populations.

Rathna
02-02-2014, 02:44 AM
I'll read (and study) the paper, but it seems to me that they haven't released the haplotypes. What a pity. But you have an (probably) S47 in your "Italy FTDNA Project" from the Elymian zone of Western Sicily. There are theories which link Elymians to Ligurians (Erice/Lerici):

308873 Felipe Ciaravino, b 1794 Italy R1b1a2
13 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 18 17 38-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 25 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 12 33 15 9 16 11 27 26 19 12 11 13 12 12 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 19 15 20 13 24 16 13 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 16 9 12 11

R.Rocca
02-02-2014, 04:46 AM
I'll read (and study) the paper, but it seems to me that they haven't released the haplotypes. What a pity. But you have an (probably) S47 in your "Italy FTDNA Project" from the Elymian zone of Western Sicily. There are theories which link Elymians to Ligurians (Erice/Lerici):

308873 Felipe Ciaravino, b 1794 Italy R1b1a2
13 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 18 17 38-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 25 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 12 33 15 9 16 11 27 26 19 12 11 13 12 12 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 19 15 20 13 24 16 13 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 16 9 12 11

This was pre-print and they mentioned both STRs and supplementary files, so I'm hopeful they will be released.

Rathna
02-02-2014, 08:17 AM
But there always is something that doesn't fit in these studies:
1) the previous papers already published about the Alpine populations had many wrong haplotypes (for instance a G passed off for R etc.) that I didn't take them in any consideration (see Coia et al., etc.)
2) they use a known argument to explain the difference between the Y and the mt haplogroups: that the Y is due to immigration whereas the mt would belong to the women of the previous populations. This has been used to explain why we have in Western Europe above all hg. R whereas the mt are very differentiated etc.
But I heard the same Francalacci (who is amongst the authors of the paper) to give the right explication: those women might have only a few children whereas a chieftain may have many from different women. This explains also the ratio of a few Y and many mt in Arabia etc.
3) You certainly remember when I was threatened of a banishment on Worldfamilies when I said that Tofanelli of Pisa University would have discovered a "Ligurian" SNP and this was a secret. Now the paper has been published and I am curious to know this SNP, probably nothing more than what we know from the PF SNP, the Big Y and the Full Y ones.

I let you note that I have 13 new SNP from my Chromo2, which will probably be able to give us a phylogeny of R-Z2110* (mine).

Rathna
02-02-2014, 08:26 AM
To the previous post I could add (always to explain Western European Y) that it isn't said that the chieftains were R and the other men other haplogroups: they could be R them too. This of course could have amongst the consequences that R was old and dominant. It is useless you ask me where it was, I could say: in the "Refugium South of the Alps".

vettor
02-02-2014, 08:29 AM
IMO, the paper is just a summary of the other papers from 2013 and beyond, its a waste of time.

I agree with rathna that they passed of G for R..........I for G and some others .............although the mtdna was very good...IIRC lots of K1 and U5 and U4, and stated these are original alpine markers while the H was basically never introduced ( maybe H5 was ........to hot to think today)

Cascio
02-02-2014, 08:54 AM
Richard, I would counsel caution concerning Z36 and the Garfagnana.

Boattini's recent study had a R1b-L2 predominance in his La Spezia/Massa sample which covers most of the ancient Apuan Ligurian territory.

Capocasa's new study takes Vagli as his Garfagnana sample. Vagli is only just inside Lucca province and is close to the Massa provincial border.

Vagli seems to come close to North East Italy (predominantly R1b-L2) in Capocasa's scaling plots.

Rathna
02-02-2014, 10:00 AM
I have already remembered the people I tested in my zone: Pisa Province close to the ancient Ligurian limits Northwards Arno river, but people migrated and we don't know where their ancestors lived 1000 or 2000 years ago:
1) I (H1614/KV7Y2), my son and my far relative Giancarlo Tognoni (H1621): R-Z2110* (on 1300 my ancestors lived in Castelfiorentino, Florence Province)
2) My acquired cousin Giorgio Tognarelli (211020): R-L23+/L277-/L584- (from 23andMe), The origins are probably from Lunigiana (full Ligurian places) with links with Orsini Luciani (Corsica) and Guastalli, whose surname brings his origin beyond the Apennine (Guastalla), always in Ligurian/Etruscan places
3) Fabrizio Federighi (MHK97): R-M269* (he is waiting for his Geno 2.0), surname in Pisa and Pistoia Provinces
4) Alberto Malvolti (9GBPS): R- (probably) U152, perhaps Z56 (?),tested by SMGF, surname in Florence and Parma Provinces
5) Ivano Coltelli (303065): R-M269 (perhaps U152), but only 12 markers, Pisa Province
We have on 23andMe:
6) Alessandro Baldasseroni: R-U152*, from Altopascio, Lucca Province, limits of ancient Sextum Lake
7) Mariani (an Italian American: Jill Temple's brother), close to me by my maternal line: R-U152*, Colle di Compito, Lucca Province, limits of ancient Sextum Lake.

There are so far 100% hg. R.

Cascio
02-02-2014, 10:13 AM
Also there is the fact that Bergamask, Brescian and Piedmontese artisans, especially iron workers, settled in the Garfagnana especially between the 13th and 16th centuries.
Some could have brought Z36 there.

Rathna
02-02-2014, 10:47 AM
Of course other persons linked to me who come probably from my zone have also other haplogroups. Unfortunately they don't answer my letters and I am not able to say anything about their origin:

3rd to 5th Cousin: 0.43% shared, 3 segments United States Italy Southern Europe Bonechi Frangioni Taliani T2/G2a

3rd to 6th Cousin: 0.43% shared, 1 segments Italy Pisa Southern Europe H5a / I1*

Ruggero Gabbrielli Male, b. 1975 4th to Distant Cousin 0.10% shared, 1 segment Italy Firenze, Italy Empoli, Italy San Miniato, Italy Cava dei Tirreni, Italy Southern Europe Gabbrielli Masullo Bianchi 5 more Ruggero Gabbrielli H10a1/G2a [but the male line seems just that one out of four not from Tuscany]
etc.

R.Rocca
02-02-2014, 02:43 PM
Richard, I would counsel caution concerning Z36 and the Garfagnana.

Boattini's recent study had a R1b-L2 predominance in his La Spezia/Massa sample which covers most of the ancient Apuan Ligurian territory.

Capocasa's new study takes Vagli as his Garfagnana sample. Vagli is only just inside Lucca province and is close to the Massa provincial border.

Vagli seems to come close to North East Italy (predominantly R1b-L2) in Capocasa's scaling plots.

Yes, for that reason I did not say that Z36 was specifically and/or solely a sign of Ligures. The scientific thing to do would be to test the area of Benevento for subclades of Z36 to see if they match the Ligures ones. Then, a control "Samnite" population would need to be tested to see if these markers are greatly reduced. Of course we don't even know what those markers are today, so the study's use of STRs is of very limited value. Ancient DNA would be nice as well, but is likely rare due to the fact that the Ligures practiced cremation.

What role U152 and Z36 had in Ligures and preceding cultures like Golasseca, Canegrate, etc. should start to reveal itself with our knowledge of subclades.

vettor
02-02-2014, 06:43 PM
Also there is the fact that Bergamask, Brescian and Piedmontese artisans, especially iron workers, settled in the Garfagnana especially between the 13th and 16th centuries.
Some could have brought Z36 there.

There are also many many silk workers who moved from Lucca to Brescia area in the 15th and 16th centuries............so people did move north before "italians" where created.

As for me, my family only moved 10K in the last 300 years............but stories of coming from Dermulo, north of trento and before that Regensburg , Bavaria are just that...stories

pasquale
02-08-2014, 06:55 PM
This paper is due out this year, and while not specifically about U152, it has an interesting U152 reference (highlighted in the text). Of course U152 STRs in L2, Z36 and Z192 look like typical WAMH (Z56 not so much). The only sample in the FTDNA project in the "Liguri Apuani" homeland is Z36+ (Paolini), so one would expect that the displaced U152 of Benevento would also be Z36. The only sample from Benevento (Goglia) has not been tested further than U152.

Capocasa et al. (2014) Linguistic, geographic and genetic isolation: a collaborative study of Italian populations (ahead of print)
http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Contents/2014vol92/Capocasa/Capocasa.pdf

I have tested:

Your Haplogroup Tests Taken
R-U152 P312+, U152+, L196-, M228.2-, U106-

R.Rocca
02-08-2014, 08:51 PM
I have tested:

Your Haplogroup Tests Taken
R-U152 P312+, U152+, L196-, M228.2-, U106-

Hello Pasquale and welcome to the forum. If you are the owner of kit no. 208100 from Vitulano, Benevento, it would be very important for you to test for L2 and Z36.

Bolgeris
02-09-2014, 11:20 AM
Ciao,
if you are from Benevento..
as wrote Rich. also..
should be important to test L2 or L20..

because M228.2 it's important only for Belgieri..
and divide the Bolgeri family from Belgieri family..
but only in 1690 about..

more interesting should be to know if you are L2 or L20 pos..?!

If you are "beneventano U152+" from Lombards (Longobardi) or from Ligurian ancestry?!?

I should remember the Lombard .. Duchy of Benevento..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Benevento

Some L20 may be arrive in Italy with Lombards??
Mah!?


I have tested:

Your Haplogroup Tests Taken
R-U152 P312+, U152+, L196-, M228.2-, U106-

Rathna
02-09-2014, 12:16 PM
208100 Pasquale Goglia, Vitulano, Benevento, Italy Italy R1b1a2a1a1b3
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 12 11 25 15 19 31 14-14-16-17 11 11 19-23 17 15 17 18 37-39 11 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 22-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 11
I permit to let you note that Goglia has very rare mutations:
DYS455 from 11 to 12
DYF395F1 from 15-16 to 16-16
DYF406F1 from 10 to 11
DYS557 from 16 to 17
DYS565 from 12 to 11
and that they are very unusual in the Italian samples, not counting his DYS391=10, DYS464= 14-14-16-17 like my R-Z2110* which presupposes many autonomous mutation starting from a presupposed 14-15-16-18 etc.
This to say that also the values apparently in the modal probably had many mutations around the modal.
3 out of 5 of these rare mutations are also in this haplotype:
103719 James Lankford b. 1840 Fauquier Co. VA England R1b1a2a1a1b3
13 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 16-16-17-17 11 11 19-21 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 36 15 9 16 12 26 27 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 21 15 16 12 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
but they could be by chance, even though not likely.

pasquale
02-09-2014, 08:41 PM
I cannot find Z36 on the list of SNP tests, but will look further. thanks

pasquale
02-09-2014, 08:51 PM
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/goglia/
The project so far consists of 2. The other Goglia is from Lombard principality of Salerno. The project includes the surnames Goglia, Golja (Slavic spelling of Goglia), Goglio and Golia.
The other member of my project has tested for:M269+, L196-, L20-, L21-, L4-, M228.2-

pasquale
02-09-2014, 08:53 PM
I cannot find the Z36 test listed on FTDNA, but I will investigate further, thank you.

pasquale
02-09-2014, 08:55 PM
Ciao,
if you are from Benevento..
as wrote Rich. also..
should be important to test L2 or L20..

because M228.2 it's important only for Belgieri..
and divide the Bolgeri family from Belgieri family..
but only in 1690 about..

more interesting should be to know if you are L2 or L20 pos..?!

If you are "beneventano U152+" from Lombards (Longobardi) or from Ligurian ancestry?!?

I should remember the Lombard .. Duchy of Benevento..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Benevento

Some L20 may be arrive in Italy with Lombards??
Mah!?

Hello, I believe you have sent me information previously.

Bolgeris
02-09-2014, 10:02 PM
Yes..
Please try this search
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/tools/build-tree-and-asd-pairs/
With haplotypes:
208100, GX9UF, 154083, 183488, 31300, E2467, 152053, 47686, 223650, 69579, 72367, e11688, N90341, 12148, 155835, 36943, 208672, N31442, 116207,

The TMRCA from Bolgeri and Goglia should be 4/5000 years ago?!
i don't think you are L20.. but only L2+ ?! May be?!
Ciao.

Rathna
02-10-2014, 05:02 AM
Yes..
Please try this search
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/tools/build-tree-and-asd-pairs/
With haplotypes:
208100, GX9UF, 154083, 183488, 31300, E2467, 152053, 47686, 223650, 69579, 72367, e11688, N90341, 12148, 155835, 36943, 208672, N31442, 116207,

The TMRCA from Bolgeri and Goglia should be 4/5000 years ago?!
i don't think you are L20.. but only L2+ ?! May be?!
Ciao.

Of course this method of calculation, even though smart, has all the lacks of the others, because doesn't consider my golden principles: mutations happen around the modal, there is a convergence to the modal as time passes, only sometimes there is a mutation for the tangent and rarely a multistep mutation.
I compared me (H1614), Mattoli (30885), Silver (45475) and I got a separation between me and Silver from Mattoli 4534YBP and between me and Silver 2814YBP.
But I am R-Z2110*, Silver R-L584 and Mattoli (probably R-L277: he is waiting for his test c/o FTDNA). 67 markers, MR 0,00179, generation 25 years.
If you take in consideration the paper of Rootsy et al. about the Levites R1a, where they got a test similar probably to Big Y (about 9Mbp), we have that these three subclades of R-Z2105 separated about 45 SNPs ago.
There is who thinks that a SNP is worth 4 generations, there is who thinks that is worth 8-10 ones, because these tests as to Big Y test only a part of the Y.
Anyway, as I have always supported, the times are higher, much higher.

About Goglia I think that the link with this Englishman, another with a German (Eisenmann) and further with Mottola (Italy) is probably an old U152*, and the direction of the expansion is the other way around what you all think: from Italy Northwards.

Rathna
02-10-2014, 06:17 AM
Do you want another absurdity? Me (R-Z2110*) and Cucina (R-U152/L20) have a common ancestor about 2200 years ago only because we have many convergent mutations!

H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R1b1a2
12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 32 15 9 16 11 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 14 10 9 20 15 19 14 23 18 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 11 11
208672 Antonino Cucina, b.c.1773, d.1803, Palermo, Sicily Italy R1b1a2a1a1b3c1
13 24 15 11 12-14 12 12 13 13 12 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 13-15-15-16 10 10 19-23 15 15 19 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 13 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 10 16 12 24 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 23 13 10 10 20 15 19 15 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11

Cascio
02-10-2014, 08:15 AM
About Goglia I think that the link with this Englishman, another with a German (Eisenmann) and further with Mottola (Italy) is probably an old U152*, and the direction of the expansion is the other way around what you all think: from Italy Northwards.

Perhaps from NORTHERN ITALY northwards, though even this is controversial.

I doubt if the southern half of Italy had anything to do with the origin of U152.

Rathna
02-10-2014, 09:21 AM
Perhaps from NORTHERN ITALY northwards, though even this is controversial.

I doubt if the southern half of Italy had anything to do with the origin of U152.

This isn't said. My theory of the Italian Refugium presupposed that hg. R1b1 and subclades was there and was diffused in all Italy, comprised the Isles.
We have:
1) R1b1/L389* in South (DeMao, Buono), Central (Mangino/Mancini), North (Toniolo)
2) R1b1/V88 in the Isles (Sardinia and Corsica above all R-M18), North (Marchesi)
3) R-M269* in the Isles (LoPiccolo), South (Merante etc), Central (Federighi), North (Ferrero)
4) R-Z2110*,L277, PF7580 overall in Italy
5) R-L51, above all in North Italy
6) R-U152 in North Italy but till Central (Tuscany and Umbria have amongst the highest percentages) and many cases are also in South Italy and the Isles
etc etc
My theory was that South Italy had a migration of agriculturalists from the Balkans which diluted hg. R, but peripheral zones like Western Sicily have an high percentage till to-day.
Thus what you say and that the most part of people are thinking isn't said for me.

Bolgeris
02-10-2014, 07:09 PM
Ciao..
Each hypothesis is possible ..
But because it seems you wanted to ignore a simple fact ..
that most of the U152 + in South Italy or in the islands may be of Lombard derivation or northern Italians .. ?!

In the Middle Ages various parts of Sicily and Southern Italy were colonized by Lombards.. (as northerns italians).. after the Normans conquest..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_languages

In Sardinia if the U152+ are on the coast or in the north of Sardinia can be Tuscans or Ligurians originally ..

How not to forget the big southerns Lombards principalities .. as Spoleto and Benevento.

Various scenarios are possible.

vettor
02-11-2014, 05:23 AM
I doubt any R1 originated in Italy , i believe in what hammer stated last year. R1-U152 originated in central germany and IMO under pure celtic origin. they over time moved south , over the alps and into Italy. while another branch went into france and beyond.
The old markers of Italy where ( not in any order) G2, E, L, T, J1, I2 and a few lesser ones

Cascio
02-14-2014, 10:20 AM
R1b-U152 probably originated somewhere in west-central Europe south of the river Main and the Harz Mountains.

Barellalee
03-21-2014, 06:41 AM
Extremely inteteresting stuff! One of my Maternal Great-Grandfathers was from the Province Of Massa-Carrara, the heart of the ancient territory of the Apuani. His Maternal side was of local origin, and his Paternal side was of historical origin in the Lucchesia, still Apuani territory. I would love to get a Y-DNA test on that branch of the family, since all I have to generically go on is my Autosomal DNA from that side, which was done by 23andMe, only tracing back to roughly 500 YPB, and is labeled "Italian". I am assuming a lot of this new evidence and research is being drawn from the 2013 stdies of Boattini and Martinez-Cruz, the most detailed records of Italy's genetic composition to date. As I understand it, and what I think the most up to date research concludes, most of the Y-DNA Haplotypes of today's ethnic Italian males are held to have arrived in and/or were already present in the Italian territory itself as of the late Neolithic and early Metal Ages, am I correct? Statements on Italian Y-DNA such as "few common ancestors living during the late Neolithic and early Metal Ages" seems to me to indicate the research concludes that these majority Y-DNA Haplotypes migrated to/were already present in the Italian territory itself, no later than say the Bronze Age. If this is the case, then things such as Greek and Phoenician colonial contacts and Germanic incursions, are not witnessed to have had very profound impacts upon the Y-DNA gene pool of Italy.

Ravai
03-24-2014, 03:19 PM
Hello, my Y-DNA is (R1b1a2a1a1b3c) R-L2. Paternal: Giovanni Battista Rabai, b. 1647 in Casanova, Diocesi di Albenga, Repubblica di Genova.

Saluti

Armenis
03-24-2014, 04:49 PM
I doubt any R1 originated in Italy , i believe in what hammer stated last year. R1-U152 originated in central germany and IMO under pure celtic origin. they over time moved south , over the alps and into Italy. while another branch went into france and beyond.
The old markers of Italy where ( not in any order) G2, E, L, T, J1, I2 and a few lesser ones

I am in agreement with this ... central Germany may be a little more South or Swiss, perhaps even Austrian (Dolomites) ... but yes, sounds about right. I'm awaiting more info with the results coming in, things may change slightly ... ever so slightly. France (Provence & Savoye) and Liguria in Italy may change the map considerably ... not to mention Treviso. Subclades of L2 will shed light on these regions for us.. patience.

Acque agitate
03-24-2014, 04:56 PM
Hello, my Y-DNA is (R1b1a2a1a1b3c) R-L2. Paternal: Giovanni Battista Rabai, b. 1647 in Casanova, Diocesi di Albenga, Repubblica di Genova.

Saluti

Ciao Ravai,
Welcome to the community of R-L2, I live in Bologna.
With which company you have done the test R-L2* ?
If you have done this you can partcipare with FTDNA project R-U152:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/

Ravai
03-31-2014, 07:27 PM
Ciao Ravai,
Welcome to the community of R-L2, I live in Bologna.
With which company you have done the test R-L2* ?
If you have done this you can partcipare with FTDNA project R-U152:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/

Grazie mille,

I live Sevilla, Spain. I did the test with genographic. I imported the data to FTDNA and participate in the group. Nice to meet you.

Regards

pasquale
07-05-2014, 12:01 AM
Trying figure out where go next, I find this reference probably from the last time I was doing any research. I am R1b1a1a1a1a4 according to FTDNA. Richard Rocca suggested FGC10543, but not in my list of available tests. I am thinking CTS8178, and even though I tested negative for U106, these are available Z383 and Z191. This I don't understand, History professor, Patrick Geary, has conducted research into the Longobard/Celtic area of Italy. He suggested that I might still should test for this DNA. I am open to all thoughts and comments, any input can only help me.

pasquale
07-05-2014, 12:04 AM
Of course this method of calculation, even though smart, has all the lacks of the others, because doesn't consider my golden principles: mutations happen around the modal, there is a convergence to the modal as time passes, only sometimes there is a mutation for the tangent and rarely a multistep mutation.
I compared me (H1614), Mattoli (30885), Silver (45475) and I got a separation between me and Silver from Mattoli 4534YBP and between me and Silver 2814YBP.
But I am R-Z2110*, Silver R-L584 and Mattoli (probably R-L277: he is waiting for his test c/o FTDNA). 67 markers, MR 0,00179, generation 25 years.
If you take in consideration the paper of Rootsy et al. about the Levites R1a, where they got a test similar probably to Big Y (about 9Mbp), we have that these three subclades of R-Z2105 separated about 45 SNPs ago.
There is who thinks that a SNP is worth 4 generations, there is who thinks that is worth 8-10 ones, because these tests as to Big Y test only a part of the Y.
Anyway, as I have always supported, the times are higher, much higher.

About Goglia I think that the link with this Englishman, another with a German (Eisenmann) and further with Mottola (Italy) is probably an old U152*, and the direction of the expansion is the other way around what you all think: from Italy Northwards.

Trying figure out where go next, I find this reference probably from the last time I was doing any research. I am R1b1a1a1a1a4 according to FTDNA. Richard Rocca suggested FGC10543, but not in my list of available tests. I am thinking CTS8178, and even though I tested negative for U106, these are available Z383 and Z191. This I don't understand, History professor, Patrick Geary, has conducted research into the Longobard/Celtic area of Italy. He suggested that I still should test for this DNA. I am open to all thoughts and comments, any input can only help me.

R.Rocca
07-05-2014, 02:29 AM
Trying figure out where go next, I find this reference probably from the last time I was doing any research. I am R1b1a1a1a1a4 according to FTDNA. Richard Rocca suggested FGC10543, but not in my list of available tests. I am thinking CTS8178, and even though I tested negative for U106, these are available Z383 and Z191. This I don't understand, History professor, Patrick Geary, has conducted research into the Longobard/Celtic area of Italy. He suggested that I still should test for this DNA. I am open to all thoughts and comments, any input can only help me.

You need to do the following:

1. From your FamilyTreeDNA homepage, click on the "Order an Upgrade" button from the top right-hand corner of the page.
2. Click on the orange "Order an Advanced Test" button from the bottom-left hand corner of the page.
3. From the "Test Type" drop down box, select "SNP".
4. Type "FGC10543" in the "Marker" text box and click on the orange "Find" button.
5. Click on the "Add" link next to the "$39.00" price.

The rest you can fill out.

Ordering Z383 or Z191 will be meaningless since you are not U106.

Barellalee
07-05-2014, 08:05 AM
Hello, my Y-DNA is (R1b1a2a1a1b3c) R-L2. Paternal: Giovanni Battista Rabai, b. 1647 in Casanova, Diocesi di Albenga, Repubblica di Genova.

Saluti

I see that is the Atlantic Modal Haplogroup, as it is called. Not too sure what to make of that designation, or to what cultures it would tie up to in historic terms, but I'm assuming a huge and wide-ranging number across Western and Central Europe. I hope soon to get some folks on my Italian side to test, since as of the current time, I only have my Mitochondrial Haplogroup, which is a pretty rare Subclade usually seen more in the Alps and Germany, J2a1* (Maternal: Maria B. Cavallini, Born 1893, Livorno, Toscana.)

pasquale
07-06-2014, 04:20 PM
You need to do the following:

1. From your FamilyTreeDNA homepage, click on the "Order an Upgrade" button from the top right-hand corner of the page.
2. Click on the orange "Order an Advanced Test" button from the bottom-left hand corner of the page.
3. From the "Test Type" drop down box, select "SNP".
4. Type "FGC10543" in the "Marker" text box and click on the orange "Find" button.
5. Click on the "Add" link next to the "$39.00" price.

The rest you can fill out.

Ordering Z383 or Z191 will be meaningless since you are not U106.

Thank you, ordered. I would like to add: most Goglia come from the province of Benevento and the comune of Vitulano. Others in the south are located primarly in Salerno/Serre. Others are found in the province of Napoli/Acerra. These are all areas the Longobards established a duchy. I have John Goglia, Kit No: 291253, in my surname group. I just looked at his test results and he tested negative for L2. I was going to ask him to test U152. Oh, John and I are not related and his ancestors come from the comune of Serre in Salerno. Our grandfathers lived on the same street in Boston (1900s)
Just checked and John tested negative for :L21, L20, L196, and L4

R.Rocca
07-06-2014, 04:58 PM
Thank you, ordered. I would like to add: most Goglia come from the province of Benevento and the comune of Vitulano. Others in the south are located primarly in Salerno/Serre. Others are found in the province of Napoli/Acerra. These are all areas the Longobards established a duchy. I have John Goglia, Kit No: 291253, in my surname group. I just looked at his test results and he tested negative for L2. I was going to ask him to test U152. Oh, John and I are not related and his ancestors come from the comune of Serre in Salerno. Our grandfathers lived on the same street in Boston (1900s)
Just checked and John tested negative for :L21, L20, L196, and L4

Thanks Pasquale. You are right, even at 12 markers, you mismatch on 4 of them with the other Goglia, which would make it very unlikely that you are related for thousands of years.

pasquale
07-07-2014, 03:09 PM
Hi, This morning, I received this from FTDNA
Hello,

According to ISOGG's 2014 SNP Tree FGC10543 or possibly known as DF103 is currently unavailable for testing at FTDNA because it is listed as under investigation for the SNP index.

R.Rocca
07-07-2014, 04:37 PM
Hi, This morning, I received this from FTDNA
Hello,

According to ISOGG's 2014 SNP Tree FGC10543 or possibly known as DF103 is currently unavailable for testing at FTDNA because it is listed as under investigation for the SNP index.

Can you please forward me the email? Of course this makes no sense since these are two different SNPs.

R.Rocca
08-20-2014, 08:33 PM
I had referenced this paper in the past, but it has now been made public, so here goes...

Bertoncini et al. (2012) A Y Variant Which Traces the Genetic Heritage of Ligures Tribes. Journal of Biological Research, Vol.84, No.1 2012.
http://www.pagepressjournals.org/index.php/jbr/article/view/4087/3590

This is the first published attempt that tries to fit U152 into an archeaological timeframe and setting. The authors set out to see if there was a Y-DNA correlation between the areas once inhabited by the Lugures Apuani in Northern Italy and Sannio in Southern Italy, where the Romans deported the Ligurians en masse as per classic historians. They found that U152(xL2) made up 51.8% in the Apuan Alps of Northern Italy with a frequency high of 77.8% in the town of Pruno. The combined U152(xL2) and L2 frequencies surpass the overall U152 frequency of U152 in Brescia (51.3%, Boattini et al. 2013) and Badia (50%, Coia et al 2013). Certainly the Apuan U152 has more in common with Brescian U152, as it is also made up largely of U152(xL2) whereas Badian U152 is almost entirely derived at L2. Furthermore, the authors state that U152(xL2) makes up almost the entirety of M269 in the Apuan Alps and that U152's subclade L2 is poorly represented there. Based on STR diversity, the authors were not able to prove or disprove the deportation, nor get a sense of direction of the migration.

From limited consumer testing, it is likely that an important amount of U152(xL2) from the central Alps to Tuscany is made up of the Z36 subclade. Z36 has also been shown to be the largest U152 subclade in a small village outside of Florence, Tuscany (Rocca et al. 2012). While the authors date the TMRCA of U152(xL2) to the Urnfield Cultural time period, it could be that this was a time when U152 subclades, in general, expanded significantly and not necessarily their origination point. The mention of the Canegrate and Proto-Golasecca Cultures may be a good representation of where U152(xL2) and its sublcades were frequent during the late Bronze Age.

Ravai
08-22-2014, 03:24 PM
Very interesting all you have in the forum. My genealogy research have reached to 1609, year of birth of my grandfather ninth, Domenicus Rabai. His father was named Pietrus Rabai. Both natives of Casanova Lerrone in Savona, Italy.

I am L2.

Regards

Kwheaton
08-22-2014, 03:36 PM
Very interesting all you have in the forum. My genealogy research have reached to 1609, year of birth of my grandfather ninth, Domenicus Rabai. His father was named Pietrus Rabai. Both natives of Casanova Lerrone in Savona, Italy.

I am L2.

Regards

Welcome Rabirius. You may already know Rich Rocca. He is the best source of downstream of L2 testing advice. If you would like to share where you have tested and your kit # it might prove helpful to others here. My husband is L2 and I manage the WHEATON FTDNA group which has a large group of L2's. We are awaiting results in the next 2 months from a Elite Y and Full Genomes Corp. Some of my fellow L2's are hoping that we match some of their SNPSs and so are we.
Kelly Wheaton

R.Rocca
08-22-2014, 03:37 PM
Very interesting all you have in the forum. My genealogy research have reached to 1609, year of birth of my grandfather ninth, Domenicus Rabai. His father was named Pietrus Rabai. Both natives of Casanova Lerrone in Savona, Italy.

I am L2.

Regards

Are these the ancestors of kit no. N119885, Giovanni Battista Rabai, b. 1647, Albenga, Italy from the U152 project?

Ravai
08-23-2014, 07:11 AM
Hello Kwheaton,

It's nice to meet you. Yes I would like to go a little lower, but a lot of information out there and do not know how to address this issue without spending too much money.

Regards

Ravai
08-23-2014, 07:15 AM
Hello Richard,

Yes, that's my ancestor, my grandfather eighth son of Domenicus Rabai. This is new information that I have found this summer and I have to upgrade to FTDNA. I remain faithfully your posts, although as not control the English language I have trouble fully understand everything you write. guess you just happen with my English translator :).

Regards

R.Rocca
08-23-2014, 12:06 PM
Hello Richard,

Yes, that's my ancestor, my grandfather eighth son of Domenicus Rabai. This is new information that I have found this summer and I have to upgrade to FTDNA. I remain faithfully your posts, although as not control the English language I have trouble fully understand everything you write. guess you just happen with my English translator :).

Regards

OK, thank you for the update. If you find it difficult to understand a post in English, please send me an email and I will reply in Spanish.

Ravai
08-27-2014, 12:14 PM
Hi, I am doing a test to see if my signature is displayed.

Regards

Barellalee
09-11-2014, 06:27 PM
Hi, I am doing a test to see if my signature is displayed.

Regards

I was wondering if there's any knowledge of Ligurian MtDNA Haplogroups. I have spoken about my result before on here, and it intrigues me still. My Matriline background is 100% Tuscan, and from the west-central coast. I'm J2a1 MtDNA, and my Sequencing shows I have no further Defining Mutations beyond J2a1, ie, I lack the 16231 common of Northern European and Scandinavian J2a1s, etc. My Haplotype is an archaic one, akin to the origin of J2a1 (TMRCA 16,500). Strangely, my closest Sequencing match so far, although definitely still discernably different, is to an archaic looking J2a1 Tested in 2012 from an Irish person in Ireland. J2a1 is not a common Haplogroup in Ireland, nor is it in Tuscany. All J2a1 seems to be centered in North and Central Europe and the Alps, thus it increases in frequency the further north one goes in Italy.

pasquale
10-26-2014, 10:41 PM
Hello Pasquale and welcome to the forum. If you are the owner of kit no. 208100 from Vitulano, Benevento, it would be very important for you to test for L2 and Z36.

I have tested positive L2, but negative for Z150. When I look on the FTDNA page for available tests,Z36 isn't listed (highlighted). If I tested negative for U106, why is Z383 available? Should I consider Z367?

R.Rocca
10-27-2014, 03:17 AM
I have tested positive L2, but negative for Z150. When I look on the FTDNA page for available tests,Z36 isn't listed (highlighted). If I tested negative for U106, why is Z383 available? Should I consider Z367?

If you are already L2+ then you will be Z36-. Since you are L2+ you need to test either Z49 or Z367, with Z49 being more common in Italy.

pasquale
02-26-2015, 06:07 AM
If you are already L2+ then you will be Z36-. Since you are L2+ you need to test either Z49 or Z367, with Z49 being more common in Italy.

I visited https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=yresults and found myself alone. No one else is grouped with me. A couple of days ago, I tested for Z49.
My tests: P312+, U152+, L2+, Z150-, Z367-, U106-, L196-, M228-, FGC10543-

pasquale
02-26-2015, 06:26 AM
There is much I don't understand, I used to be listed as R1b1a1a1a1a4, then R1b2a1a1a1a3. Visiting https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=ysnp, I am now R1b2a1aBa1a1c1. I am sure there is a simple explanation, but does FTDNA ever inform of these changes? And why, at least to the uniformed newbies.

R.Rocca
02-26-2015, 01:29 PM
I visited https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=yresults and found myself alone. No one else is grouped with me. A couple of days ago, I tested for Z49.
My tests: P312+, U152+, L2+, Z150-, Z367-, U106-, L196-, M228-, FGC10543-

When your Z49 result is in, you will be moved o either the Z49+ group or the Z49- group.

R.Rocca
02-26-2015, 01:30 PM
There is much I don't understand, I used to be listed as R1b1a1a1a1a4, then R1b2a1a1a1a3. Visiting https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=ysnp, I am now R1b2a1aBa1a1c1. I am sure there is a simple explanation, but does FTDNA ever inform of these changes? And why, at least to the uniformed newbies.

They've changed based on the ever expanding tree. Those designations however are almost meaningless nowadays however and are almost always out of date.

pasquale
02-27-2015, 12:06 AM
Thank you and that is what I thought, but FTDNA is lacking in consumer information.

Morges
03-10-2015, 11:37 AM
I'll read (and study) the paper, but it seems to me that they haven't released the haplotypes. What a pity. But you have an (probably) S47 in your "Italy FTDNA Project" from the Elymian zone of Western Sicily. There are theories which link Elymians to Ligurians (Erice/Lerici):

308873 Felipe Ciaravino, b 1794 Italy R1b1a2
13 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 18 17 38-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 25 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 12 33 15 9 16 11 27 26 19 12 11 13 12 12 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 19 15 20 13 24 16 13 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 16 9 12 11

Elymians lived approximatively in this area.
http://s28.postimg.org/mfbsj6i65/Sicily_elymians.png (http://postimage.org/)

Entella (a Ligurian name) was the bigger city of them together with Erice.


L'opinione della venuta degli Elimi dall'Italia fu invece sostenuta dal Nissen e poi da altri storici moderni (Beloch, De Sanctis), i quali hanno rilevato che le tre cittą degli Elimi portano nomi che si riscontrano sulla costa ligure (Lerici, Segesta, Entella) e ritengono che si tratti, quindi, di una popolazione ligure, estesasi verso il sud o venuta per via di mare nella Sicilia occidentale. A questa popolazione, giunta in Sicilia con una civiltą primitiva, simile a quella degli eneolitici liguri, sarebbero forse da attribuire gli avanzi rinvenuti in alcune caverne del litorale di Trapani. La pretesa origine troiana sarebbe, quindi, da interpretarsi con la tendenza dei Greci ad assimilare i popoli con cui lottavano in Occidente ai barbari coi quali avevano combattuto i loro avi secondo l'epopea.


The opinion of the Elymians coming from Italy was instead supported by Nissen and then by other modern historians (Beloch, De Sanctis), which found that the three cities of the Elymians bear names that are found on the Ligurian coast (Lerici, Segesta , Entella) and believe that it is, therefore, of a population of Liguria, which extended to the south or coming by sea in western Sicily. In this population, arrived in Sicily with a primitive civilization, similar to that of the Ligurian Aeneolithic, would perhaps be attributed leftovers found in some caves of the coast of Trapani. The claim Trojan origin would, therefore, be interpreted with the tendency of the Greeks to assimilate the peoples with whom they fought in the West to the barbarians with whom they had fought their ancestors according to the epic.

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/elimi_res-6d24550d-8bae-11dc-8e9d-0016357eee51_%28Enciclopedia_Italiana%29/

Maybe it has connection with Bell Beakers?Who passed from Liguria and Provenza to Sardinia and Sicily.
http://s16.postimg.org/rn1pax9c5/2000px_Beaker_culture_diffusion_svg.png (http://postimg.org/image/trm2c0ayp/full/)

pasquale
09-23-2015, 11:32 PM
Results from the FTDNA backbone test
L2+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, U152+, L23+, L278+, L389+, L51+, M269+, M343+,
Negative is very long
Available
M126 L135 PF7610 CTS5153 F3916 CTS10009 CTS3080 CTS667 CTS7491 CTS1166 F4205 PF4367 CTS6942 F1643
Any suggestions?

Bolgeris
09-24-2015, 12:11 PM
Results from the FTDNA backbone test
L2+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, U152+, L23+, L278+, L389+, L51+, M269+, M343+,
Negative is very long
Available
M126 L135 PF7610 CTS5153 F3916 CTS10009 CTS3080 CTS667 CTS7491 CTS1166 F4205 PF4367 CTS6942 F1643
Any suggestions?

There are a lot of subclades under L2+ born 4500 years ago..!
I am kit YF01754 L20+ and CTS9733

R-L2L2/S139formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo

R-L2*

R-A197A197formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 150 ybpinfo

R-DF90DF90 * FGC14641/Y12051formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo

R-Y11232PH1389/Y11232 * S1570 * Y11934... 7 SNPsformed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo

R-Y11667Y11667formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybpinfo

R-S14469FGC4183/S14469 * FGC8158 * FGC8178formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo
R-S14469*
5087formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybpinfo

R-Y3961Y3961 * DF110/Y3962formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybpinfo


R-Y3960Y3960 * Y3964formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybpinfo

R-Z367Z367/S255 * S372/Z258 * Z384formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybpinfo
R-Z367*
R-Z34Z259 * Z33/S212 * Z151/S491... 3 SNPs
R-Z34*
R-Z35Z35/S487
R-Z35*
R-CTS1073CTS8494 * CTS1073 * CTS11514

R-Z275Z257 * Z275 * Z256

R-L20L20/S144 * Z1908/CTS1939 * Z2533/Z1921/PF129formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybpinfo
R-L20*

R-Z291Z291/S256

R-CTS9733CTS9733/S3856 * YSC0000193formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybpinfo
R-CTS9733*

R-Y11785FGC17189/Y11786 * FGC17194/Y11787 * FGC17199/Y11788... 14 SNP sformed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybpinfo
id:YF01754ITA [IT-CO]

R-Z1909Z1910 * Z1909formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybpinfo
R-Z1909*

R-Y6789S20363 * Y6791 * Y6789... 3 SNPsformed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybpinfo
R-Y6789*

R-Y15103Y15106 * Y15110 * Y15103... 18 SNPsformed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo

R-Z49Z49 * Z68/S485formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo
R-Z49*
R-S8183S8183 * A1168/Y12892formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo
R-S8183*
R-Y16860Y16862 * Y16861 * Y16860... 8 SNPsformed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybpinfo

R-Y4356FGC31474/Y4356formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo
R-Y4356*
R-Y11178Y11178 * Y11187 * Y11183... 20 SNPsformed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybpinfo
R-Y11178*

R-Y13610Y13610formed 850 ybp, TMRCA 700 ybpinfo

R-Y4354FGC20774/Y4354 * FGC20796/Y4353formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo
R-Y4354*

R-Y4355FGC20777/Y4355formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybpinfo
R-Y4355*
R-Y14088FGC20795/Y14094 * FGC20799/Y14096 * FGC20786/Y14090... 30 SNPsformed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 50 ybpinfo

R-Y17276Y17279 * Y17280 * Y17277... 2 SNPsformed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybpinfo
R-Y17276*

R-Y16875Y16875 * Y16876 * Y16878... 6 SNPsformed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybpinfo

R-Z142Z142/S211formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybpinfo
R-Z142*

R-FGC22963FGC22963 * FGC22969formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybpinfo
R-FGC22963*

R-S18325FGC22940 * FGC22942 * FGC22968... 1 SNPsformed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybpinfo


R-L562Z50/L562/S213 * Z51/S369 * Z55formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybpinfo
R-L562*

R-Z57Z57/S1468formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 4000 ybpinfo
R-Z57*

R-CTS6554Z148/S489 * Z149/S490 * Z65/S370... 5 SNPsformed 4000 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybpinfo
R-CTS6554*

R-CTS9462CTS9462 * CTS278formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo

R-S7402Z12222/S7402 * Z150/S257formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybpinfo


R-Y3140FGC12382/Y3144 * FGC12381/Y3140 * FGC12383/Y3141... 3 SNPsformed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybpinfo
R-Y3140*

R-Y9080Y9080 * FGC12401/Y10984 * FGC12403... 3 SNPsformed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybpinfo

R-CTS9490CTS9490formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybpinfo

R-S7404CTS7970/S7404formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2900 ybpinfo

R-Y17091FGC37045/Y17093 * FGC37041/Y17091 * FGC37061/Y17097... 5 SNPsformed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybpinfo

R-Y17076FGC37046/Y17080 * FGC37052/Y17088 * FGC37050/Y17085... 12 SNPsformed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 50 ybpinfo

Titus Valerius
09-24-2015, 12:58 PM
Hi Pasquale! You could be L20+ ! The backbone test doesn't test for L20!

R.Rocca
09-24-2015, 01:27 PM
Hi Pasquale! You could be L20+ ! The backbone test doesn't test for L20!

Hello my friend...Pasquale is Z367-, so he cannot be L20.

pasquale
09-24-2015, 01:38 PM
Hello my friend...Pasquale is Z367, so he cannot be L20.

I tested negative for Z367, L20 is shown as presumed negative

R.Rocca
09-24-2015, 01:43 PM
I tested negative for Z367, L20 is shown as presumed negative

Sorry, I said you could not be L20 because you are negative for Z367-, but the "negative" was left out. Corrected now.

Titus Valerius
09-24-2015, 02:05 PM
Sorry i missed Pasquale is Z367-

pasquale
09-24-2015, 02:25 PM
So, where do I go from here?

Titus Valerius
09-24-2015, 05:23 PM
Abaut 2200 years ago Romans deported 47000 Apuans Ligures in Benevento from my area! We are waiting for the publication of paper about this ancient people and the possible relationship between current inhabitants of La Spezia and Benevento. I know that Dr. Boattini found in 2013 in my area 6 L2s+ and 3 U152+ among 24 tested people . Just a few days ago I just got the results of two friends of mine: Mr. Corsi is U152+ L2+ Z142+ and Mr. Basteri is U152+ Z56+. In addition , a few months ago , another friend of mine Mr. Bernardini got the result and he is U152+ Z56+ Z71+. I'm U152+ L20+

Kwheaton
09-24-2015, 06:15 PM
Abaut 2200 years ago Romans deported 47000 Apuans Ligures in Benevento from my area! We are waiting for the publication of paper about this ancient people and the possible relationship between current inhabitants of La Spezia and Benevento. I know that Dr. Boattini found in 2013 in my area 6 L2s+ and 3 U152+ among 24 tested people . Just a few days ago I just got the results of two friends of mine: Mr. Corsi is U152+ L2+ Z142+ and Mr. Basteri is U152+ Z56+. In addition , a few months ago , another friend of mine Mr. Bernardini got the result and he is U152+ Z56+ Z71+. I'm U152+ L20+
Titus---that's a nice bit of diversity thanks for sharing. I think we are likely to find that kind of diversity everywhere---given the nature of migrations.

pasquale
01-25-2016, 10:27 PM
When your Z49 result is in, you will be moved o either the Z49+ group or the Z49- group.

I don't remember if I posted the results of Z49. I tested negative. My positive results are: L2,L23, L278, L389, L51, (M269, M343, P297, P310,P311, P312, U152). FTDNA shows available tests for me
M126, L135, PF7610, CTS5153, F3916, CTS10009, CTS3080, CTS667, CTS7491, CTS1166, F4205, PF4367, CTS6942, F1643 .

R.Rocca
01-26-2016, 12:27 AM
I don't remember if I posted the results of Z49. I tested negative. My positive results are: L2,L23, L278, L389, L51, (M269, M343, P297, P310,P311, P312, U152). FTDNA shows available tests for me
M126, L135, PF7610, CTS5153, F3916, CTS10009, CTS3080, CTS667, CTS7491, CTS1166, F4205, PF4367, CTS6942, F1643 .

Hello Pasquale... do not waste your money on the available tests FTDNA shows... please order the M343 Backbone test as it tests for many SNPs below L2.

pasquale
01-26-2016, 06:34 AM
Hello Pasquale... do not waste your money on the available tests FTDNA shows... please order the M343 Backbone test as it tests for many SNPs below L2.

My results are shown after the M343 backbone

ChrisR
01-26-2016, 01:19 PM
Capocasa et al. (2014) Linguistic, geographic and genetic isolation: a collaborative study of Italian populations (ahead of print)
http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Contents/2014vol92/Capocasa/Capocasa.pdf
This was pre-print and they mentioned both STRs and supplementary files, so I'm hopeful they will be released.
Seems nothing including supplementary files was published yet?
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Marco+Capocasa+Paolo+Anagnostou+Destro+B isol&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2014&as_yhi=

R.Rocca
01-26-2016, 01:39 PM
My results are shown after the M343 backbone

Then I still wouldn't waste money on those SNPs that FTDNA lists. The best bet is to save up and order Big-Y or wait until the price drops.

R.Rocca
01-26-2016, 01:39 PM
Capocasa et al. (2014) Linguistic, geographic and genetic isolation: a collaborative study of Italian populations (ahead of print)
http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Contents/2014vol92/Capocasa/Capocasa.pdf
Seems nothing including supplementary files was published yet?
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Marco+Capocasa+Paolo+Anagnostou+Destro+B isol&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2014&as_yhi=

Unfortunately "no".