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View Full Version : are Irish, Scottish, English people all the same people?



Censored
03-07-2020, 07:15 AM
The two former ones spoke a Celtic language the latter a Germanic one. Why is this and how is it they are so closely related if they are not one people? What is the common root

rms2
03-07-2020, 10:06 PM
They're not the same, although overall there hasn't been that much of a fundamental genomic change since the Beaker people arrived in the 3rd millennium BC and replaced the previous inhabitants.

In terms of y-dna, however, here are a few maps that show the Germanic (Anglo-Saxon and Viking) impact that went into making the English who they are.

36728 36729

rms2
03-07-2020, 10:07 PM
Please delete this post.

alan
03-07-2020, 10:16 PM
The shared root is all largely descend from NW European Early Bronze Age people. The movement of people since then has largely been NW Europeans moving to other bits of NW Europe.

moesan
03-09-2020, 11:09 PM
Agree with Alan.
Concerning BB's I think that their input in the Isles has been overrated. But their mixed descendants of BA, with a close enough autosomal admixture, some of them their successors, born in the Isles, other come from the continent, has finished the principal work, with light enough modification of auDNA. The Germanics has had true input, most in East and North-East, but their auDNA was not too different when considering the ancient components. In the detail, I think they presented other sub-groups of the old componants (Neolithic, diverse HG's and Steppe) but these differences are uneasy to show out.

moesan
03-09-2020, 11:15 PM
I mean that the simplification: British people are for the most the 2200/2000 BC BB's descendants, as said by some scholars, is a bit exaggerated.

Nqp15hhu
03-10-2020, 04:16 PM
No, they’re not!

moesan
03-14-2020, 01:18 PM
What is your point ? (I am not sure I understood it well)
Thanks beforehand

Lord Kildare
10-13-2020, 10:46 PM
Well, genetically, the peoples of the British Isles are quite similar. As I understand it, we are all composed mostly of Bell Beaker, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, and Norse DNA, pretty much only differing in the extent and kind of Germanic ancestry. Southern English people are more like the Danes, whereas the native Irish are less Germanic but nevertheless have substantial Norwegian influence.

alan
10-13-2020, 11:35 PM
Well, genetically, the peoples of the British Isles are quite similar. As I understand it, we are all composed mostly of Bell Beaker, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, and Norse DNA, pretty much only differing in the extent and kind of Germanic ancestry. Southern English people are more like the Danes, whereas the native Irish are less Germanic but nevertheless have substantial Norwegian influence.

True that the 'waves' are shared through you could describe northern France exactly the same way as a mix of bell beaker, Celtic, Anglo-Saxons, viking etc. Belgium, southern Holland etc could be described pretty similarly. Parts of England overlap more with Benelux than they do with the Celtic fringe. I think the Celtic fringe probably overlaps better with NW France than it does with parts of SE England. So, its a continuum rather than the British Isles being a grouping apart.

Revmac
10-14-2020, 12:51 AM
I’m just glad that they are all not the same person.

That’d be confusing.

spruithean
10-14-2020, 01:38 AM
I’m just glad that they are all not the same person.

That’d be confusing.

LOL, I think that would test one's sanity!

JerryS.
10-14-2020, 02:46 AM
my NW ancestry usually all get lumped into one category of British Isles, England, or some sort of Continental Germanic on these DIY's. lately I've been getting an awful lot of Scandinavian as well from them. I have no direct Scandinavian ancestry but a Y haplogroup of I1. I think the North Sea region is a bit more homogenous than we think. It can be split into this or that, but as an aggregate it seems like one group.

Froser
03-10-2021, 09:39 AM
Modern british populations are predominantly mixture of different Germanic tribes,Romans and native bronze age beaker derived peoples.
Ive got this model. Scotland_LBA represents native BBC derived british people,England_Saxon represents generalized influence of Germanic tribes and ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA represents Roman influence.

Target: English_Cornwall
Distance: 1.1751% / 0.01175050
51.8 England_Saxon
31.8 Scotland_LBA
16.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

Target: English
Distance: 0.9615% / 0.00961514
54.2 England_Saxon
31.4 Scotland_LBA
14.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.0471% / 0.01047053
47.4 Scotland_LBA
46.4 England_Saxon
6.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

Target: Scottish
Distance: 0.9733% / 0.00973302
49.2 England_Saxon
41.6 Scotland_LBA
9.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

Target: Welsh
Distance: 0.7109% / 0.00710931
52.6 England_Saxon
31.6 Scotland_LBA
15.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

moesan
03-12-2021, 09:48 PM
Modern british populations are predominantly mixture of different Germanic tribes,Romans and native bronze age beaker derived peoples.
Ive got this model. Scotland_LBA represents native BBC derived british people,England_Saxon represents generalized influence of Germanic tribes and ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA represents Roman influence.

Target: English_Cornwall
Distance: 1.1751% / 0.01175050
51.8 England_Saxon
31.8 Scotland_LBA
16.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

Target: English
Distance: 0.9615% / 0.00961514
54.2 England_Saxon
31.4 Scotland_LBA
14.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.0471% / 0.01047053
47.4 Scotland_LBA
46.4 England_Saxon
6.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

Target: Scottish
Distance: 0.9733% / 0.00973302
49.2 England_Saxon
41.6 Scotland_LBA
9.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

Target: Welsh
Distance: 0.7109% / 0.00710931
52.6 England_Saxon
31.6 Scotland_LBA
15.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

I,teresting bit it's a construction that IMO doesn't reflect the true historical composition of these regions. Too much ancient genetic connections between the ancestors who later were involved in separated cultural destinies before a new remix after the Middle Ages, I think. Very hard work to disentangle all that.