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gjenetiks
03-17-2020, 09:56 PM
Shestani is a small region in southeastern Montenegro, populated mostly by Albanians and some Montenegrins. I myself am from this region.

I am unsure as to whether or not migrations were made here by slavs (most likely), or if the Montenegrin people's here are assimilated Albanians (of which many are), but nonetheless I thought it would be a good idea to open a thread to discuss and delve into this region more.

gjenetiks
03-17-2020, 11:06 PM
Albanian documentary on Kraja region


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkQKck_l5_Y

Kelmendasi
03-17-2020, 11:11 PM
It seems that during the Medieval there was a coexistence between an Albanian speaking population and a Slavic speaking population. The defter of 1485 shows that a little over half of the anthroponyms recorded in the nahiya of Shestani are Albanian (Gjon, Deda, Pal, Kola etc), with the remainder being Slavic (Vuk, Branko, Stoja, Pop etc). Though, given that the adoption of Slavic names was common by Albanians during the time period, and that some of the individuals recorded with Slavic names had Albanian patronyms, it's likely that the majority of the inhabitants of these villages were Albanian. Though there was without a doubt also Slavic speakers, for example in the village of Sėvaēa/Seoēa nearly all the inhabitants had Slavic anthroponyms and patronyms. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3ma9plMXxAEZi1PZTVXMXV1NFE/edit

In later years, there was a migration of more Albanians into the region from Malėsi. Many of the families from the region today can trace their ancestry back to tribes such as the Shkreli and Kelmendi.

gjenetiks
03-17-2020, 11:23 PM
It seems that during the Medieval there was a coexistence between an Albanian speaking population and a Slavic speaking population. The defter of 1485 shows that a little over half of the anthroponyms recorded in the nahiya of Shestani are Albanian (Gjon, Deda, Pal, Kola etc), with the remainder being Slavic (Vuk, Branko, Stoja, Pop etc). Though, given that the adoption of Slavic names was common by Albanians during the time period, and that some of the individuals recorded with Slavic names had Albanian patronyms, it's likely that the majority of the inhabitants of these villages were Albanian. Though there was without a doubt also Slavic speakers, for example in the village of Sėvaēa/Seoēa nearly all the inhabitants had Slavic anthroponyms and patronyms. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3ma9plMXxAEZi1PZTVXMXV1NFE/edit

In later years, there was a migration of more Albanians into the region from Malėsi. Many of the families from the region today can trace their ancestry back to tribes such as the Shkreli and Kelmendi.

Yeah in later years more families from Malesi migrated to the region and can trace their origin to the Malesor tribes, but most of the Shestani inhabitants have forgotten this completely.

There is a whole linguistic dissertation from a person from Ohio State University, discussing Slavic-Albanian language contact and coexistence. In the shestani dialect we often use borrowed words from serbo-croatian. This isn't something special, many places in Kosovo and Albania do the same, but it's possible we use more.

The dissertation also discusses a theory of Albanian-Montenegrin tribe mingling in the Scutari / Liqeni i Shkodres area.

Of all of the areas of Slavic-Albanian language contact, the area around Lake Scutari (Sr Skadarsko jezero, Alb Liqeni i Shkodrės) and in the mountain villages in eastern Montenegro has seen the greatest amount of reciprocal bilingualism. Part of this may be due to the area’s peripheral location to many of the political states that had influence in the western Balkans. More likely, however, is the relatively equal social standing between Albanian and Montenegrin tribes from their origins in the 14th and 15th centuries at least until the reorganization of society under Communism (von Šufflay 1925/2004: 75–78; Omari 1989: 45). This was promoted by the common cultural values held by highland Montenegrins and Albanians (Ēabej 1975, cited in Omari 1989: 45), especially regarding traditions of marriage and descent. Both the Albanians and the

(Page 53).

continued...

Montenegrins considered marriage within the male bloodline to be unacceptable. In order to work around this limitation, brides were often sought from other communities, and some Montenegrin and Albanian tribes had traditions of seeking wives from one another’s communities (Durham 1928: 15; Curtis 2007: 19). One obvious result of these arrangements was an effective bilingualism and intimate cultural contact between Albanians and Montenegrins in this area. Some lexical items (addressed in the next chapter) attest to both the practice of exogamous marriage and the shared cultural values found among the Albanian and Montenegrin tribes in the area. Second, in the time of close cultural contact, it is known that certain clans (e.g. Piperi and Kuči) have switched from having a mixed composition of Albanian and Slavic speakers to being only Slavic (Omari 1989: 45; von Šufflay 1924). In addition, several tribes that are now monolingual Albanian or Slavic maintain identical stories of ethnogenesis (Omari 1989: 45; Barjaktarević 1962). According to Stanišić, the influence of contact with Albanian can be seen throughout Old Montenegro, and in practically every Montenegrin tribe (1995: 24).

(Page 54).

The bold is an indication that Montenegrins are heavily albanian admixed, and this can be seen in their autosomal DNA.

gjenetiks
03-17-2020, 11:29 PM
continued...Two fairly recent cases of population shifts have occurred in Montenegro where many linguistic convergences between Slavic and Albanian are also found. First is the Mrković (also Mrkojević) community in the highlands above Bar/Tivar. Although it is certain that some of the Mrkovići were historically Albanian (and some continue to identify themselves as such), scholars disagree whether linguistic and other cultural similarities to Slavic dialects in Kosovo and Macedonia are the result of Albanian speakers shifting to Slavic or simply from their location historically. Most scholars believe that they lived in northern Albania and thus, geographically, connected Slavic dialects in Montenegro, southern Serbia (including Kosovo) and northern Macedonia (Stanišić 1995: 17). Although this opinion is widely accepted as an explanation of the linguistic similarities of the Mrković with Albanian (Popović 1958; Pešikan 1982, Pižurica 1984: 84–85), the influence of Albanian is also quite strong; this perhaps indicates that many of the Mrkovići descend from Albanians, as was noted in a Turkish census (defter) from the 15th century (Pižurica 1981: 420–421). This is certainly not the origin of all Mrković speakers, but it is certain that the influence of Albanian comes from the multilingual composition of the ethnic group in addition to a possible influence from an earlier historic setting in present-day northeastern Albania. It is likely that both the population shifts and bilingualism with surrounding Albanian speakers are responsible for the penetration of Albanian features on the Slavic dialect spoken by the Mrkovići.

(Page 54-55).

Kelmendasi
03-18-2020, 01:18 PM
Yeah in later years more families from Malesi migrated to the region and can trace their origin to the Malesor tribes, but most of the Shestani inhabitants have forgotten this completely.

There is a whole linguistic dissertation from a person from Ohio State University, discussing Slavic-Albanian language contact and coexistence. In the shestani dialect we often use borrowed words from serbo-croatian. This isn't something special, many places in Kosovo and Albania do the same, but it's possible we use more.

The dissertation also discusses a theory of Albanian-Montenegrin tribe mingling in the Scutari / Liqeni i Shkodres area.

Of all of the areas of Slavic-Albanian language contact, the area around Lake Scutari (Sr Skadarsko jezero, Alb Liqeni i ShkodrĆ«s) and in the mountain villages in eastern Montenegro has seen the greatest amount of reciprocal bilingualism. Part of this may be due to the areaĀ’s peripheral location to many of the political states that had influence in the western Balkans. More likely, however, is the relatively equal social standing between Albanian and Montenegrin tribes from their origins in the 14th and 15th centuries at least until the reorganization of society under Communism (von ĀŠufflay 1925/2004: 75Ā–78; Omari 1989: 45). This was promoted by the common cultural values held by highland Montenegrins and Albanians (Ƈabej 1975, cited in Omari 1989: 45), especially regarding traditions of marriage and descent. Both the Albanians and the

(Page 53).

continued...

Montenegrins considered marriage within the male bloodline to be unacceptable. In order to work around this limitation, brides were often sought from other communities, and some Montenegrin and Albanian tribes had traditions of seeking wives from one anotherĀ’s communities (Durham 1928: 15; Curtis 2007: 19). One obvious result of these arrangements was an effective bilingualism and intimate cultural contact between Albanians and Montenegrins in this area. Some lexical items (addressed in the next chapter) attest to both the practice of exogamous marriage and the shared cultural values found among the Albanian and Montenegrin tribes in the area. Second, in the time of close cultural contact, it is known that certain clans (e.g. Piperi and Kuči) have switched from having a mixed composition of Albanian and Slavic speakers to being only Slavic (Omari 1989: 45; von ĀŠufflay 1924). In addition, several tribes that are now monolingual Albanian or Slavic maintain identical stories of ethnogenesis (Omari 1989: 45; Barjaktarević 1962). According to StaniĀšić, the influence of contact with Albanian can be seen throughout Old Montenegro, and in practically every Montenegrin tribe (1995: 24).

(Page 54).

The bold is an indication that Montenegrins are heavily albanian admixed, and this can be seen in their autosomal DNA.
Yeah, I have read this dissertation before. It is logical for the dialects spoken around the border of Montenegro to have a number of Serbo-Croatian loans, as we know that this region was a place of contact and in some cases coexistence between Albanians and Slavs.

I think that only the Serbo-Montenegrins and Montenegrins from eastern and southeastern Montenegro have Albanian genetic input. Historically it was in these regions that Albanians and Serbo-Montenegrins had the the most contact with each other. As far as I know, the Montenegrins from northwestern Montenegro are pretty similar to Serbs when it comes to auDNA.

Maleschreiber
03-18-2020, 01:53 PM
I just finished an article about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryethi in wikipedia. This is related to Ana e Malit region and Ulqin, but I think it can give information in this situation too as it reveals that we still don't know a lot about the Albanian tribes and brotherhoods in modern Montenegro. In this context, the village Seoca to the north of Kraja appears as headed by Gjon Krytha (Gion Crutta).

I wrote the article because Kryethi is a pretty much uncovered subject to genealogical research, so I hope this sparks some conversation. Given the fact that the northernmost Albanian tribe we know so far lived in ...Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmazi I think that there's much work to do to get a proper account of Albanians in those areas.

There are many tribes in that area that gradually became part of the Slavic Orthodox milieu. So for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrkojevi%C4%87i Mrkojevici in 1485 appears to have a small Catholic Albanian minority, but what does that mean? It doesn't mean that in their area some Catholic Albanians lived. These people were part of the same community, they had kinship ties to each other, shared the same land etc. More probably, these people who appear with Albanian names in 1485 are basically the few that remained Albanian-speaking over the centuries of cultural contect.

Also, now a sidebar exists for quicker navigation to articles about Albanian tribes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Albanian_tribes_sidebar

Kelmendasi
03-18-2020, 02:14 PM
I just finished an article about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryethi in wikipedia. This is related to Ana e Malit region and Ulqin, but I think it can give information in this situation too as it reveals that we still don't know a lot about the Albanian tribes and brotherhoods in modern Montenegro. In this context, the village Seoca to the north of Kraja appears as headed by Gjon Krytha (Gion Crutta).

I wrote the article because Kryethi is a pretty much uncovered subject to genealogical research, so I hope this sparks some conversation. Given the fact that the northernmost Albanian tribe we know so far lived in ...Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmazi I think that there's much work to do to get a proper account of Albanians in those areas.

There are many tribes in that area that gradually became part of the Slavic Orthodox milieu. So for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrkojevi%C4%87i Mrkojevici in 1485 appears to have a small Catholic Albanian minority, but what does that mean? It doesn't mean that in their area some Catholic Albanians lived. These people were part of the same community, they had kinship ties to each other, shared the same land etc. More probably, these people who appear with Albanian names in 1485 are basically the few that remained Albanian-speaking over the centuries of cultural contect.

Also, now a sidebar exists for quicker navigation to articles about Albanian tribes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Albanian_tribes_sidebar
I just read that article, nice work. Was wondering about the etymology of the name Kryethi or Krythi. In the article you wrote that it comes from the word krye (head) with the suffix -thi, I agree that the first part of the name comes from krye but I think that maybe thi could be related the the word thi (pig) which is used in NW Gheg speaking areas (and maybe other regions as well). From where I am from and Shkodėr, the saying kry thi (literally, pig-headed) is used to describe someone that is stubborn or big-headed.
Perhaps I'm overlooking this lol as the name is also recorded as Krytha.

Maleschreiber
03-18-2020, 03:22 PM
I just read that article, nice work. Was wondering about the etymology of the name Kryethi or Krythi. In the article you wrote that it comes from the word krye (head) with the suffix -thi, I agree that the first part of the name comes from krye but I think that maybe thi could be related the the word thi (pig) which is used in NW Gheg speaking areas (and maybe other regions as well). From where I am from and Shkodėr, the saying kry thi (literally, pig-headed) is used to describe someone that is stubborn or big-headed.
Perhaps I'm overlooking this lol as the name is also recorded as Krytha.

No you're not!!! It's exactly what the source I'm using says (Gjurmime Albanologjike). I just hadn't added the whole thing because I was in the process of expanding some stuff when I sent the link hahaha. So, the form Sfinodol near Vushtrria may come from an intermediate "Svinoglav" (swine head, literally). One of the most complete dictionaries of Albanian also has the same definition (Mehmet Elezi, 2006)

I think that the form Krytha as a surname may come from a demonym Kryethan>Krythan>Krytha.

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Exercitus
03-18-2020, 04:30 PM
Well, also Selami Pulaha has explained the Onomastic peculiarity regarding the Merkoja\Merkojevic, his conclusion was that in the case of the ethnicity we are dealing with a majority Albanian-speaking community, religiously; Generally Orthodox Serbian. The suffix, - eza\ -ez of the Anthroponymy - which does not exist in any Slavic tongue, it's typically Albanian -, and that phenomena constitute a Albanian adaptation of the typical Slavic names, which is also a sufficient prove of their Albanophonie !!
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Exercitus
03-18-2020, 04:32 PM
1) subtle underline -> the names withe the -eza suffix.
2) thick underline -> typical pan-albanian Onomastics.

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Also if we consider the ties due to blood relations (the brother of, the son of etc), and those persons which had typical Christian names like; Nikolla, Andrija, Mark etc it seems plausible that they were generally Albanian-speaking!!

gjenetiks
03-18-2020, 04:49 PM
Yeah, I have read this dissertation before. It is logical for the dialects spoken around the border of Montenegro to have a number of Serbo-Croatian loans, as we know that this region was a place of contact and in some cases coexistence between Albanians and Slavs.

I think that only the Serbo-Montenegrins and Montenegrins from eastern and southeastern Montenegro have Albanian genetic input. Historically it was in these regions that Albanians and Serbo-Montenegrins had the the most contact with each other. As far as I know, the Montenegrins from northwestern Montenegro are pretty similar to Serbs when it comes to auDNA.

So I think it's safe to say that Baltic I have is most likely slavic, and I have more slavic DNA in me than the average Albanian?

Kelmendasi
03-18-2020, 04:57 PM
So I think it's safe to say that Baltic I have is most likely slavic, and I have more slavic DNA in me than the average Albanian?
I personally believe that the majority of this "Baltic" admixture from the earlier GEDmatch calculators is actually just representative of extra northeastern European admixture, I'd say it's Slavic since the earlier Balkan samples were lacking in this admixture.

It's hard to say how much actual Slavic or northeastern European admixture you have, I don't think most of these sites are useful in determining this. Getting Eurogenes Global25 would be best if you want to know. But from what I remember, you didn't cluster all that different from the average Albanian.

gjenetiks
03-18-2020, 05:02 PM
I personally believe that the majority of this "Baltic" admixture from the earlier GEDmatch calculators is actually just representative of extra northeastern European admixture, I'd say it's Slavic since the earlier Balkan samples were lacking in this admixture.

It's hard to say how much actual Slavic or northeastern European admixture you have, I don't think most of these sites are useful in determining this. Getting Eurogenes Global25 would be best if you want to know. But from what I remember, you didn't cluster all that different from the average Albanian.

I remember that I didn't cluster differently, but me personally I think 23andme is terrible for third party DNA tools, especially v5. Even when you convert it to v3 it's not any more accurate. FTDNA and Ancestry are better, and I'll probably get one of those in the future.

I can say that I might have more slavic than the avg albanian, because of this contact and coexistence with other Montenegrin tribes, and some phenotypical differences I see in my family, which I believe is due to some slavic influence.

It may be possible that the slavic is not being picked up because it's something else, or that this slavic dna has been diluted, due to the end of mingling between slavs and albanians and more albanian dna over time.

Kelmendasi
03-18-2020, 05:45 PM
I remember that I didn't cluster differently, but me personally I think 23andme is terrible for third party DNA tools, especially v5. Even when you convert it to v3 it's not any more accurate. FTDNA and Ancestry are better, and I'll probably get one of those in the future.

I can say that I might have more slavic than the avg albanian, because of this contact and coexistence with other Montenegrin tribes, and some phenotypical differences I see in my family, which I believe is due to some slavic influence.

It may be possible that the slavic is not being picked up because it's something else, or that this slavic dna has been diluted, due to the end of mingling between slavs and albanians and more albanian dna over time.
Honestly I don't know if I would even suggest FTDNA or Ancestry as even their Balkan or Southeastern European categories are bound to have some Slavic admixture as South Slavs are usually included in them, as well as the fact that Albanians and mainland Greeks already have Slavic ancestry which makes it useless in actually determining how much Slavic input you have.

As I mentioned before, Eurogenes Global25 is best for this as you could use aDNA samples to determine this. It only requires raw data and is only $12 https://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html.

I think you'll end up scoring roughly the same as most Albanians as you don't seem that far off from the average in terms of clustering. Perhaps you'll have a little extra than the average Albanian. From the samples I have seen, the Albanians from southeastern Montenegro do not seem to be that different to the northern Albanians when compared to the Albanians from the Montenegrin side of Malėsi; who are even more northern shifted than Kosovar Albanians.

Exercitus
03-18-2020, 05:46 PM
Actually genuine symbiotic serb-albanian communities existed in some parts of Western Kosovo (Dukagjin\Metohije) in the basis of 'The register of Sandjak of Shkodra 1485', also around the area of Novoberda\Novo brdo(Gollak\Goljak), in the basis 'The register ofthe Kaza of Novo brdo, 1498', but in the regions of the Field of Kosovo( Fusha e Kosoves\Kosovo polje), Drenica, Llap\Labsko polje in the basis of 'Defter of Brankovic's Land 1455', although it's quite a 'Hot Topic' among Historians from both sides, it seems clearly that the Albanophone communities constituited a minority, a deduction which even Adem Handzic articulated\expressed in his studies, lately also Noel Malcolm in the book 'A Short History of Kosovo'!! There were some bilingual villages in the Plain of Kosovo, where not all the Albanians can be identified by the Slavic name of the Son and the Albanian name of the father( Đon\Gjon, Đin\Gjin, Leš\Llesh, Geš\Gjesh etc), it happened also the opposite, that a Đin\Gjin had a father named Milan and brothers Bogdan and Petro, which shows that we are dealing with Albanian-speaking peoples living in mixed Serb-Albanian Villages !!Few examples;

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Exercitus
03-18-2020, 05:49 PM
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Kelmendasi
03-18-2020, 06:04 PM
Actually genuine symbiotic serb-albanian communities existed in some parts of Western Kosovo (Dukagjin\Metohije) in the basis of 'The register of Sandjak of Shkodra 1485', also around the area of Novoberda\Novo brdo(Gollak\Goljak), in the basis 'The register ofthe Kaza of Novo brdo, 1498', but in the regions of the Field of Kosovo( Fusha e Kosoves\Kosovo polje), Drenica, Llap\Labsko polje in the basis of 'Defter of Brankovic's Land 1455', although it's quite a 'Hot Topic' among Historians from both sides, it seems clearly that the Albanophone communities constituited a minority, a deduction which even Adem Handzic articulated\expressed in his studies, lately also Noel Malcolm in the book 'A Short History of Kosovo'!! There were some bilingual villages in the Plain of Kosovo, where not all the Albanians can be identified by the Slavic name of the Son and the Albanian name of the father( Đon\Gjon, Đin\Gjin, Leš\Llesh, Geš\Gjesh etc), it happened also the opposite, that a Đin\Gjin had a father named Milan and brothers Bogdan and Petro, which shows that we are dealing with Albanian-speaking peoples living in mixed Serb-Albanian Villages !!Few examples;

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In the defter of 1485 we also see that, among the Christians recorded in the neighbourhood/quarter of Stepan Zeqanin (Mėhalla e Stepan Zeqaninit) in Pejė, there is the Arbanasi family. Both individuals recorded from this family have names more typical of Orthodox Slavs; Pavėl Arbansi and Nikolla Arbanasi, however the last name indicates Albanian descent or origin. This goes to show the Albanian-Slavic symbiosis during the Medieval.

gjenetiks
03-18-2020, 06:06 PM
Honestly I don't know if I would even suggest FTDNA or Ancestry as even their Balkan or Southeastern European categories are bound to have some Slavic admixture as South Slavs are usually included in them, as well as the fact that Albanians and mainland Greeks already have Slavic ancestry which makes it useless in actually determining how much Slavic input you have.

As I mentioned before, Eurogenes Global25 is best for this as you could use aDNA samples to determine this. It only requires raw data and is only $12 https://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html.

I think you'll end up scoring roughly the same as most Albanians as you don't seem that far off from the average in terms of clustering. Perhaps you'll have a little extra than the average Albanian. From the samples I have seen, the Albanians from southeastern Montenegro do not seem to be that different to the northern Albanians when compared to the Albanians from the Montenegrin side of Malėsi; who are even more northern shifted than Kosovar Albanians.

For EUGenes25 You think it'll be accurate with 23andme v5 raw data? If I was to use v3 or v5, which do you think would give me the best results? I know that v3 data gives me more Northern results than v5. I have more Albanian typical results in v5 than I do in v3, although the difference between the two is not a crazy difference.

gjenetiks
03-18-2020, 06:13 PM
The baltic I received from GenePlaza was using converted v3 raw data.

Kelmendasi
03-18-2020, 06:19 PM
For EUGenes25 You think it'll be accurate with 23andme v5 raw data? If I was to use v3 or v5, which do you think would give me the best results? I know that v3 data gives me more Northern results than v5. I have more Albanian typical results in v5 than I do in v3, although the difference between the two is not a crazy difference.
I'd say V5 since it's a newer chip, but I'm not too sure if it will make much of a difference. From what I hear though FTDNA has the best raw data. Maybe send Davidski an email and see what he suggests, but I don't think there would be too much of a difference.

gjenetiks
03-18-2020, 08:21 PM
These are my 23andme v5 results for EU K13

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 24.4
2 North_Atlantic 22.09
3 West_Med 21.56
4 Baltic 17.96
5 West_Asian 12.05
6 Red_Sea 1.56
7 Oceanian 0.35
8 Northeast_African 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 4.11
2 Bulgarian 7.38
3 Romanian 9.24
4 Tuscan 9.36
5 Italian_Abruzzo 9.63
6 Central_Greek 10.13
7 West_Sicilian 10.69
8 East_Sicilian 11.55
9 North_Italian 12.26
10 Serbian 13.32
11 Ashkenazi 13.8
12 South_Italian 14
13 Moldavian 19.51
14 Italian_Jewish 19.71
15 Algerian_Jewish 19.9
16 Sephardic_Jewish 20.09
17 Portuguese 20.13
18 Spanish_Extremadura 20.59
19 Spanish_Galicia 21.18
20 Hungarian 21.36

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.1% Bulgarian + 39.9% West_Sicilian @ 2.7
2 91.8% Greek_Thessaly + 8.2% Southeast_English @ 3.02
3 89.6% Greek_Thessaly + 10.4% West_German @ 3.03
4 90.2% Greek_Thessaly + 9.8% South_Dutch @ 3.04
5 92.3% Greek_Thessaly + 7.7% Southwest_English @ 3.05
6 89.2% Greek_Thessaly + 10.8% Austrian @ 3.05
7 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Orcadian @ 3.07
8 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% North_Dutch @ 3.08
9 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Norwegian @ 3.09
10 90.2% Greek_Thessaly + 9.8% East_German @ 3.09
11 92.7% Greek_Thessaly + 7.3% Irish @ 3.1
12 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Danish @ 3.1
13 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% West_Scottish @ 3.11
14 92% Greek_Thessaly + 8% North_German @ 3.13
15 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Swedish @ 3.13
16 67.1% Bulgarian + 32.9% South_Italian @ 3.14
17 61.1% Romanian + 38.9% South_Italian @ 3.15
18 89.4% Greek_Thessaly + 10.6% French @ 3.15
19 90.8% Greek_Thessaly + 9.2% Southwest_French @ 3.21
20 77.1% Greek_Thessaly + 22.9% Romanian @ 3.21

Kelmendasi
03-18-2020, 08:31 PM
These are my 23andme v5 results for EU K13

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 24.4
2 North_Atlantic 22.09
3 West_Med 21.56
4 Baltic 17.96
5 West_Asian 12.05
6 Red_Sea 1.56
7 Oceanian 0.35
8 Northeast_African 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 4.11
2 Bulgarian 7.38
3 Romanian 9.24
4 Tuscan 9.36
5 Italian_Abruzzo 9.63
6 Central_Greek 10.13
7 West_Sicilian 10.69
8 East_Sicilian 11.55
9 North_Italian 12.26
10 Serbian 13.32
11 Ashkenazi 13.8
12 South_Italian 14
13 Moldavian 19.51
14 Italian_Jewish 19.71
15 Algerian_Jewish 19.9
16 Sephardic_Jewish 20.09
17 Portuguese 20.13
18 Spanish_Extremadura 20.59
19 Spanish_Galicia 21.18
20 Hungarian 21.36

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.1% Bulgarian + 39.9% West_Sicilian @ 2.7
2 91.8% Greek_Thessaly + 8.2% Southeast_English @ 3.02
3 89.6% Greek_Thessaly + 10.4% West_German @ 3.03
4 90.2% Greek_Thessaly + 9.8% South_Dutch @ 3.04
5 92.3% Greek_Thessaly + 7.7% Southwest_English @ 3.05
6 89.2% Greek_Thessaly + 10.8% Austrian @ 3.05
7 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Orcadian @ 3.07
8 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% North_Dutch @ 3.08
9 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Norwegian @ 3.09
10 90.2% Greek_Thessaly + 9.8% East_German @ 3.09
11 92.7% Greek_Thessaly + 7.3% Irish @ 3.1
12 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Danish @ 3.1
13 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% West_Scottish @ 3.11
14 92% Greek_Thessaly + 8% North_German @ 3.13
15 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Swedish @ 3.13
16 67.1% Bulgarian + 32.9% South_Italian @ 3.14
17 61.1% Romanian + 38.9% South_Italian @ 3.15
18 89.4% Greek_Thessaly + 10.6% French @ 3.15
19 90.8% Greek_Thessaly + 9.2% Southwest_French @ 3.21
20 77.1% Greek_Thessaly + 22.9% Romanian @ 3.21
Mine for comparison (though I believe this was using my FTDNA raw data):
My results:
# Population Percent
1 West_Med 24.43
2 East_Med 24.38
3 Baltic 20.62
4 North_Atlantic 18.38
5 West_Asian 8.43
6 Red_Sea 3.54
7 Oceanian 0.15
8 East_Asian 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 6.2
2 Bulgarian 8.82
3 Romanian 11.01
4 Central_Greek 12.15
5 Tuscan 12.16
6 West_Sicilian 12.81
7 East_Sicilian 13.02
8 Italian_Abruzzo 13.35
9 Ashkenazi 14.52
10 Serbian 14.53
11 North_Italian 14.59
12 South_Italian 15.81
13 Moldavian 19.57
14 Algerian_Jewish 20.08
15 Italian_Jewish 20.69
16 Sephardic_Jewish 21.42
17 Portuguese 21.98
18 Croatian 22.25
19 Spanish_Extremadura 22.43
20 Hungarian 22.58

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80.9% Bulgarian + 19.1% Sardinian @ 5.04
2 91.1% Greek_Thessaly + 8.9% Ukrainian @ 5.52
3 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Estonian_Polish @ 5.52
4 93.4% Greek_Thessaly + 6.6% Lithuanian @ 5.54
5 88.8% Greek_Thessaly + 11.2% Croatian @ 5.57
6 92.9% Greek_Thessaly + 7.1% Belorussian @ 5.59
7 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Polish @ 5.6
8 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Russian_Smolensk @ 5.6
9 91.3% Greek_Thessaly + 8.7% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 5.6
10 92.6% Greek_Thessaly + 7.4% Southwest_Russian @ 5.64
11 93.9% Greek_Thessaly + 6.1% Estonian @ 5.65
12 88% Greek_Thessaly + 12% Moldavian @ 5.65
13 92% Greek_Thessaly + 8% South_Polish @ 5.66
14 93.5% Greek_Thessaly + 6.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 5.68
15 92.6% Greek_Thessaly + 7.4% Sardinian @ 5.7
16 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Erzya @ 5.7
17 93.1% Greek_Thessaly + 6.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.71
18 73.7% Greek_Thessaly + 26.3% Bulgarian @ 5.72
19 94.5% Greek_Thessaly + 5.5% East_Finnish @ 5.75
20 94.8% Greek_Thessaly + 5.2% Finnish @ 5.81

gjenetiks
03-18-2020, 08:49 PM
Mine for comparison (though I believe this was using my FTDNA raw data):
My results:
# Population Percent
1 West_Med 24.43
2 East_Med 24.38
3 Baltic 20.62
4 North_Atlantic 18.38
5 West_Asian 8.43
6 Red_Sea 3.54
7 Oceanian 0.15
8 East_Asian 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 6.2
2 Bulgarian 8.82
3 Romanian 11.01
4 Central_Greek 12.15
5 Tuscan 12.16
6 West_Sicilian 12.81
7 East_Sicilian 13.02
8 Italian_Abruzzo 13.35
9 Ashkenazi 14.52
10 Serbian 14.53
11 North_Italian 14.59
12 South_Italian 15.81
13 Moldavian 19.57
14 Algerian_Jewish 20.08
15 Italian_Jewish 20.69
16 Sephardic_Jewish 21.42
17 Portuguese 21.98
18 Croatian 22.25
19 Spanish_Extremadura 22.43
20 Hungarian 22.58

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80.9% Bulgarian + 19.1% Sardinian @ 5.04
2 91.1% Greek_Thessaly + 8.9% Ukrainian @ 5.52
3 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Estonian_Polish @ 5.52
4 93.4% Greek_Thessaly + 6.6% Lithuanian @ 5.54
5 88.8% Greek_Thessaly + 11.2% Croatian @ 5.57
6 92.9% Greek_Thessaly + 7.1% Belorussian @ 5.59
7 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Polish @ 5.6
8 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Russian_Smolensk @ 5.6
9 91.3% Greek_Thessaly + 8.7% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 5.6
10 92.6% Greek_Thessaly + 7.4% Southwest_Russian @ 5.64
11 93.9% Greek_Thessaly + 6.1% Estonian @ 5.65
12 88% Greek_Thessaly + 12% Moldavian @ 5.65
13 92% Greek_Thessaly + 8% South_Polish @ 5.66
14 93.5% Greek_Thessaly + 6.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 5.68
15 92.6% Greek_Thessaly + 7.4% Sardinian @ 5.7
16 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Erzya @ 5.7
17 93.1% Greek_Thessaly + 6.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.71
18 73.7% Greek_Thessaly + 26.3% Bulgarian @ 5.72
19 94.5% Greek_Thessaly + 5.5% East_Finnish @ 5.75
20 94.8% Greek_Thessaly + 5.2% Finnish @ 5.81

Hmm. similar results. I'll post my v3 when I get the chance to convert it again.

gjenetiks
03-18-2020, 09:08 PM
This is a previous result I got for 23andme v5 to v3 converted (EU K13)

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 24.14
2 East_Med 23.24
3 West_Med 20.93
4 Baltic 18.73
5 West_Asian 9.59
6 Red_Sea 2.68
7 East_Asian 0.64
8 Oceanian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.87
2 Bulgarian 6.82
3 Romanian 7.87
4 Tuscan 8.84
5 North_Italian 10.66
6 Italian_Abruzzo 11.06
7 Serbian 11.36
8 West_Sicilian 11.72
9 Central_Greek 12.34
10 East_Sicilian 13.36
11 Ashkenazi 15.14
12 South_Italian 15.98
13 Portuguese 17.91
14 Moldavian 18.09
15 Spanish_Extremadura 18.58
16 Spanish_Galicia 18.88
17 Hungarian 19.23
18 Spanish_Murcia 19.58
19 Spanish_Cataluna 19.64
20 Spanish_Valencia 19.76

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.8% Bulgarian + 43.2% Tuscan @ 1.78
2 50.8% Serbian + 49.2% West_Sicilian @ 2.66
3 71.2% West_Sicilian + 28.8% Ukrainian @ 2.67
4 64.1% West_Sicilian + 35.9% Croatian @ 2.69
5 70.7% West_Sicilian + 29.3% South_Polish @ 2.7
6 84.8% Greek_Thessaly + 15.2% Southeast_English @ 2.7
7 81.6% Greek_Thessaly + 18.4% South_Dutch @ 2.73
8 53.3% Romanian + 46.7% Tuscan @ 2.79
9 80.9% Greek_Thessaly + 19.1% West_German @ 2.81
10 85.6% Greek_Thessaly + 14.4% Southwest_English @ 2.81
11 60.8% Romanian + 39.2% West_Sicilian @ 2.81
12 85.8% Greek_Thessaly + 14.2% Orcadian @ 2.85
13 79.4% Greek_Thessaly + 20.6% French @ 2.87
14 73.3% West_Sicilian + 26.7% Polish @ 2.88
15 85.7% Greek_Thessaly + 14.3% North_Dutch @ 2.88
16 86.5% Greek_Thessaly + 13.5% Norwegian @ 2.89
17 80.1% Greek_Thessaly + 19.9% Austrian @ 2.92
18 85.7% Greek_Thessaly + 14.3% Danish @ 2.93
19 86.5% Greek_Thessaly + 13.5% West_Scottish @ 2.97
20 86.4% Greek_Thessaly + 13.6% Swedish @ 2.98

trdbr1234
03-19-2020, 03:47 AM
Actually genuine symbiotic serb-albanian communities existed in some parts of Western Kosovo (Dukagjin\Metohije) in the basis of 'The register of Sandjak of Shkodra 1485', also around the area of Novoberda\Novo brdo(Gollak\Goljak), in the basis 'The register ofthe Kaza of Novo brdo, 1498', but in the regions of the Field of Kosovo( Fusha e Kosoves\Kosovo polje), Drenica, Llap\Labsko polje in the basis of 'Defter of Brankovic's Land 1455', although it's quite a 'Hot Topic' among Historians from both sides, it seems clearly that the Albanophone communities constituited a minority, a deduction which even Adem Handzic articulated\expressed in his studies, lately also Noel Malcolm in the book 'A Short History of Kosovo'!! There were some bilingual villages in the Plain of Kosovo, where not all the Albanians can be identified by the Slavic name of the Son and the Albanian name of the father( Đon\Gjon, Đin\Gjin, Leš\Llesh, Geš\Gjesh etc), it happened also the opposite, that a Đin\Gjin had a father named Milan and brothers Bogdan and Petro, which shows that we are dealing with Albanian-speaking peoples living in mixed Serb-Albanian Villages !!Few examples;

36860

36861

36862

36863

Milan, Bogdan, and Petro are religious names used in the Orthodox Church. These names do NOT have a an ethnic connotation. Rather, a religious one. These names are found among the Orthodox communities of Diber, Elbasan as well as in southern Albania. I do not believe they are a result of "Slavic" influence, but rather an influence of the Orthodox Church.

Albanian names are indicative of Albanian origin however. If we have Albanians names coupled with names associated with Orthodox Christians, then we are referring to an Albanian Orthodox community.

trdbr1234
03-19-2020, 03:54 AM
In the defter of 1485 we also see that, among the Christians recorded in the neighbourhood/quarter of Stepan Zeqanin (Mėhalla e Stepan Zeqaninit) in Pejė, there is the Arbanasi family. Both individuals recorded from this family have names more typical of Orthodox Slavs; Pavėl Arbansi and Nikolla Arbanasi, however the last name indicates Albanian descent or origin. This goes to show the Albanian-Slavic symbiosis during the Medieval.

As I stated above. These names are indicative of a Christian Orthodox influence and faith. Not Slavic influence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlos


In fact, all these names listed so far are in their correct Albanian derivative.

Kelmendasi
03-19-2020, 12:13 PM
As I stated above. These names are indicative of a Christian Orthodox influence and faith. Not Slavic influence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlos


In fact, all these names listed so far are in their correct Albanian derivative.
Sure, a large number of individuals who have Slavic anthroponyms aren't Slavs but rather Albanians who took Slavic names due to the influence of the Serbian or Bulgarian Orthodox Churches. But, I'd say that it is very unrealistic to claim that all these individuals are just Orthodox Albanians and that there was no Slavic influence or coexistence. We see in some cases where Slavic names that have no connection to Orthodoxy are used, as well as individuals that have Slavic patronyms as well as names. It's also not surprising that there would be Slavic influence, regions such as Montenegro, North Macedonia and Kosovo always seem to have been regions where Albanian-Slavic contact took place.

As far as I am aware Pavėl is not in the correct Albanian form, which would be Pal as the name is a form of Paul. Though it may be different for Orthodox Christians. As for Nikolla, that could be the Albanian derivative of Nikola.

trdbr1234
03-19-2020, 03:13 PM
Sure, a large number of individuals who have Slavic anthroponyms aren't Slavs but rather Albanians who took Slavic names due to the influence of the Serbian or Bulgarian Orthodox Churches. But, I'd say that it is very unrealistic to claim that all these individuals are just Orthodox Albanians and that there was no Slavic influence or coexistence. We see in some cases where Slavic names that have no connection to Orthodoxy are used, as well as individuals that have Slavic patronyms as well as names. It's also not surprising that there would be Slavic influence, regions such as Montenegro, North Macedonia and Kosovo always seem to have been regions where Albanian-Slavic contact took place.

As far as I am aware Pavėl is not in the correct Albanian form, which would be Pal as the name is a form of Paul. Though it may be different for Orthodox Christians. As for Nikolla, that could be the Albanian derivative of Nikola.

Pavėl IS the correct Albanian form. Pal is the Catholic version. Orthodox Albanians use Pavel and never Pal. Same for all those names mentioned so far.

I am not insisting that there isnt Slavic influence or that they are not entirely Slavic either.

However, your argument and logic is entirely flawed and these names do NOT equate to Slavic names or Slavic influence as you stipulated.

Kelmendasi
03-19-2020, 03:49 PM
Pavėl IS the correct Albanian form. Pal is the Catholic version. Orthodox Albanians use Pavel and never Pal. Same for all those names mentioned so far.

I am not insisting that there isnt Slavic influence or that they are not entirely Slavic either.

However, your argument and logic is entirely flawed and these names do NOT equate to Slavic names or Slavic influence as you stipulated.
And which are those mentioned so far? In the images Exercitus posted we have various names that are typical of Slavs such as Radislav.

Names such as Nikolla and Pavėl are bound to the the result of influence from Orthodox Churches that use Slavic liturgy such as the Serbian or Bulgarian Churches. Nikolla is very clearly a variant of Nikola which is the variant of Nicholas used primarily in Slavic-speaking nations. In fact, Selami Pulaha who translated the defter states that Nikolla was a name used among the Slavs and Albanians. As for Pavėl, it's pretty clear that this name is a version of Pavel which too is primarily used in Slavic-speaking Orthodox nations. So, I think it's incorrect to make it seem as if the Orthodox and Slavic influence are mutually exclusive in this case.

trdbr1234
03-19-2020, 04:25 PM
And which are those mentioned so far?

Names in Bold specifically.
There were some bilingual villages in the Plain of Kosovo, where not all the Albanians can be identified by the Slavic name of the Son and the Albanian name of the father( Đon\Gjon, Đin\Gjin, Leš\Llesh, Geš\Gjesh etc), it happened also the opposite, that a Đin\Gjin had a father named Milan and brothers Bogdan and Petro, which shows that we are dealing with Albanian-speaking peoples living in mixed Serb-Albanian Villages !!Few examples;

Gjon, Gjin, Lesh, as well as many others are used by both Albanian Orthodox and Albanian Catholics and denote an Albanian consciousness. So when we find these names in the population, we can safely assume they are Albanian. When we find the father named Gjon and son named Bogdan, as well as when we find the father named Petro and the son named Lesh, we are clearly referring to an Orthodox Albanian community. Referring to these names as Slavic is incorrect and completely misleading. They are in their correct Albanian form.


In the images Exercitus posted we have various names that are typical of Slavs such as Radislav.

Radislav is clearly a name of Slavic origin. However, if they were under the influence of the Serbian Orthodox church, it is easy to understand why an Albanian population would have these names. However, there is no reason for them to have Albanian names.


Names such as Nikolla and Pavėl are bound to the the result of influence from Orthodox Churches that use Slavic liturgy such as the Serbian or Bulgarian Churches. Nikolla is very clearly a variant of Nikola which is the variant of Nicholas used primarily in Slavic-speaking nations. In fact, Selami Pulaha who translated the defter states that Nikolla was a name used among the Slavs and Albanians. As for Pavėl, it's pretty clear that this name is a version of Pavel which too is primarily used in Slavic-speaking Orthodox nations. So, I think it's incorrect to make it seem as if the Orthodox and Slavic influence are mutually exclusive in this case.

What authority are you assuming they must be "bound" to be anything. Stick to the facts and do not fantasize please. You have no authority to make such claims.

Your logic here is flawed in array of different directions and it will frustrate me to deal with them all.

Kelmendasi
03-19-2020, 04:51 PM
Names in Bold specifically.

Gjon, Gjin, Lesh, as well as many others are used by both Albanian Orthodox and Albanian Catholics and denote an Albanian consciousness. So when we find these names in the population, we can safely assume they are Albanian. When we find the father named Gjon and son named Bogdan, as well as when we find the father named Petro and the son named Lesh, we are clearly referring to an Orthodox Albanian community. Referring to these names as Slavic is incorrect and completely misleading. They are in their correct Albanian form.



Radislav is clearly a name of Slavic origin. However, if they were under the influence of the Serbian Orthodox church, it is easy to understand why an Albanian population would have these names. However, there is no reason for them to have Albanian names.



What authority are you assuming they must be "bound" to be anything. Stick to the facts and do not fantasize please. You have no authority to make such claims.

Your logic here is flawed in array of different directions and it will frustrate me to deal with them all.
My post had nothing to do with the first part of your reply, it was Exercitus who talked about that. The names Milan, Bogdan and Petro are typical Orthodox Slavic names, they aren't in any "Albanian form". Sure they were also used by Albanians, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to their etymologies.

Sure, I don't have any "authority", but then again what authority do you have? I am using common sense and looking at what the sources say, if you want to believe that names such as Bogdan are in their Albanian forms then go ahead. You seem to have a problem wherein you try and separate the influence from the Orthodox Church and Slavic influence. You do realise that if the liturgy of the church is in a Slavic language, and Albanians adhere to that church, they will by default receive Slavic influence? It's not that hard to understand.

Come on now, no need to be frustrated, be a little more sure of yourself. If my logic is flawed then point it out more clearly and educate us.

Exercitus
03-19-2020, 06:33 PM
Concerning the typical Folk Albanian Onomastic, (which is Catholic or Orthodox, which is Gheg or Tosk ?!) take a look at those Studies !!

36874

36875

36876

Exercitus
03-19-2020, 07:09 PM
Like the cases in Kosovo, Montenegro etc where Albanians adopted the typical Onomastics of the Slavs (be it the Christian version; Ivan instead of Gjin, Djordje instead of Gjergj etc be it typical folk Slavic, such as Radovan, Bogdan, Zhivko, Dabzhiv etc ) it shows simply the Onomastic Tendence and the attempt to comform\integrate in the non-albanian neighboring communities. So, for example; when we are dealing with a Village in Kosovo where ALL the names of the Housholders are in Slavic (in the Christian or typical folk versions), than logically we might deduce that the inhabitants are clearly Slavic-speakers!! In the case that we encounter typical Albanian names (in the Christian or typical folk versions) in the middle of the inhabitans, than yes, we should take in consideration the presence of a Albanian-speaking people, (it's quite a elementary criteria!!), but when we observe in a Village e.g of 30 housholders ALL Slavic Anthroponyms , ecxept two\three ; Branko Arbanas, Radoslav Arbanas etc than obviously these two Arbanas(Albanians) are simply foreigners\non-slavs in this Village, that's why they are attributed with that Ethnonym 'the Albanian' by the other co-villagers !!!

Selami Pulaha has done a excellent work concerning this Topic, i suggest you to take a look at his Studies, it is worthed !!

Now about some Albanian Anthroponyms in Greece in the XV century, few examples;

36877

36878

Exercitus
03-19-2020, 07:12 PM
36879

36880

Exercitus
03-19-2020, 07:17 PM
Rec Progoni

36881

Jani Mehilli

36882

Andrea Palushi

36883

Mitra Palushi

36884

Mirash Buzbardhi

36885

gjenetiks
03-19-2020, 07:28 PM
Vallja Shestanit 'Don Gjon Buzuku'


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYU5eb6XAtc

gjenetiks
03-19-2020, 07:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acWKK5G_Yls

trdbr1234
03-20-2020, 12:02 AM
My post had nothing to do with the first part of your reply, it was Exercitus who talked about that.
You asked "And which are those [names] mentioned so far? In the images Exercitus posted we have various names that are typical of Slavs such as Radislav."
I explained which other names I was talking about in response to your inquiry about which other names I was talking about.


" The names Milan, Bogdan and Petro are typical Orthodox Slavic names, they aren't in any "Albanian form". Sure they were also used by Albanians, but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to their etymologies."

Who is talking etymology here? As far as atymology, Kelmendi is of Vlach origin as it takes its form from Saint Klements. The etymology of Kelmendi doesnt make Kelmendi Latin or VLach, as an example. Even Gjin and Gjon is not of Albanian atymology in the way Leka or Lesh is. However, they exist within the Albanian continuum and have morphed to differ from neighbors in which we can conclusively defer that that difference occurred though an Albanian prism. So, even-though their etymology is NOT Albanian, they are of clear Albanian origin. In the same fashion, Petro, Pavel, Bogdan exist in the Albanian continium of Orthodox Christians, regardless of their etymology.

In fact, your logic is massively flawed because you assume that because these names are common in Slavic countries, that they must be Slavic. I am trying to explain to you that they exist in Albanian Orthodox as well. Assuming the individuals are Slavic speakers because of these names is a major fallacy and shows you have absolutely no knowledge of Orthodox Albanians because you would know how common these names are among Orthodox Albanians.



Sure, I don't have any "authority", but then again what authority do you have?
Don't speak in absolutist terms then.

I am using common sense and looking at what the sources say, if you want to believe that names such as Bogdan are in their Albanian forms then go ahead.
Because Bogdan has spread through religious means. And it exists in Albanians as Bogdan. There are a multitude of examples of this. It does not mean the individual in the defter is Albanian but it also does not mean the individual is not Albanian, because it exists in the same fashion among other Balkan people.


You seem to have a problem wherein you try and separate the influence from the Orthodox Church and Slavic influence. You do realise that if the liturgy of the church is in a Slavic language, and Albanians adhere to that church, they will by default receive Slavic influence? It's not that hard to understand.

I thought we were trying to dissect Albanian influence versus Slavic influence from these defters. Radislav does not exist among Albanians and cannot therefore be of Albanian origin. Its intrusion into that community is foreign. The same cannot be said for the others.


Come on now, no need to be frustrated, be a little more sure of yourself. If my logic is flawed then point it out more clearly and educate us.

I am trying but I know it will be difficult.

trdbr1234
03-20-2020, 12:14 AM
Concerning the typical Folk Albanian Onomastic, (which is Catholic or Orthodox, which is Gheg or Tosk ?!) take a look at those Studies !!

36874

36875

36876

I do see an array of names on that list. Including Andrea, Gjin Gjon, Petro and Pavel

However the inclusion of Pal may be cultural, because Pavel is used in Orthodox liturgy and baptisms.

Kelmendasi
03-20-2020, 07:55 AM
You asked "And which are those [names] mentioned so far? In the images Exercitus posted we have various names that are typical of Slavs such as Radislav."
I explained which other names I was talking about in response to your inquiry about which other names I was talking about.



Who is talking etymology here? As far as atymology, Kelmendi is of Vlach origin as it takes its form from Saint Klements. The etymology of Kelmendi doesnt make Kelmendi Latin or VLach, as an example. Even Gjin and Gjon is not of Albanian atymology in the way Leka or Lesh is. However, they exist within the Albanian continuum and have morphed to differ from neighbors in which we can conclusively defer that that difference occurred though an Albanian prism. So, even-though their etymology is NOT Albanian, they are of clear Albanian origin. In the same fashion, Petro, Pavel, Bogdan exist in the Albanian continium of Orthodox Christians, regardless of their etymology.

In fact, your logic is massively flawed because you assume that because these names are common in Slavic countries, that they must be Slavic. I am trying to explain to you that they exist in Albanian Orthodox as well. Assuming the individuals are Slavic speakers because of these names is a major fallacy and shows you have absolutely no knowledge of Orthodox Albanians because you would know how common these names are among Orthodox Albanians.



Don't speak in absolutist terms then.

Because Bogdan has spread through religious means. And it exists in Albanians as Bogdan. There are a multitude of examples of this. It does not mean the individual in the defter is Albanian but it also does not mean the individual is not Albanian, because it exists in the same fashion among other Balkan people.



I thought we were trying to dissect Albanian influence versus Slavic influence from these defters. Radislav does not exist among Albanians and cannot therefore be of Albanian origin. Its intrusion into that community is foreign. The same cannot be said for the others.



I am trying but I know it will be difficult.
You still don't get it, Orthodox Albanians were not the same during the Medieval as they are now. During the Medieval, Albanians from Kosovo for example who adhered to the Serbian Orthodox Church were required to learn the language. As a result, there is Slavic influence. There was no Albanian Orthodox Church during this time period, where Albanian liturgy was used. My point is that through the church there was originally an influx of Slavic influence as shown by names that are originally used among Christian Slavic-speakers, again if you want to believe that Bogdan, Petro and Milo didn't come from Orthodox Slavic influence then that's up to you.

Maleschreiber
03-20-2020, 04:58 PM
Well, I hadn't seen this lovely discussion here :P

I would argue that Pal, Pavlo, Pavle, Pavli, Pavėl are basically variants of the same Latin name that entered Albanian through a different language and influence. Pal indicates that it entered Albaniam via Latin, Pavėl/Pavllo that it entered Albania through contact between Albanian and Greek and other variants that it entered Albanian via an intermediate Slavic form. So which is "more" Albanian? Well, I would argue that "Pal" and "Pavėl" are the closest to having that designation as they were formed within the Albanian language and show a very old contact with the Catholic and Byzantine churches . Later Slavic-influenced forms are pretty much straightforward adoptions.

Sure, not all Slavic names point to a Slavic origin, but all point to Slavic cultural influence Some names are translations in Slavic: Burmazi became Velislav, and Kryethi Svinoglav and Svinjar, but quite a good chunk of those Slavic names belong to Slavic people. If you read again and again the defters it's pretty obvious which are Slavicized communities and which pretty much Slavic. In 1571, in western Kosovo, of Opoja's 25 villages, 24 have typical Albanian names and 1 has mixed Slavic toponymy. It's safe to argue that in this community we're dealing with an Orthodox population that had mixed Albanian and Slavic names.

Now, if you go a few km to the south of Opoja in Gora, pretty much all names are Slavic and they're not Christian names in a Slavic form either for the most part. Why is there such a radical difference in such a small geographical area? The most probable answer is the simplest. The Bozhidars, Pribislavs etc. of this area were Slavs. And that is the reason why to this day, the people of Gora are a Slavic community. And I respect that. Names can change because of social factors, but basic cultural identity is something that changes only gradually and only under constant influence by state institutions and other communities.

Now, let's go back to Kraja. It showed Slavic influence in the medieval ages in its anthroponymy. It was after all very close to the centre of medieval Duklja, but what I find interesting is that the people of Kraja have an absolutely minimal Slavic influence in their lineages (which shows matrilineally for the most part). That is in contrast to what would be expected, so it raises a couple of interesting points a) about the lineages of the Slavophone communities that lived around Kraja b) about the kin organization among Albanian communities and its function as a hub of cultural preservation.

trdbr1234
03-20-2020, 06:29 PM
Well, I hadn't seen this lovely discussion here :P

I would argue that Pal, Pavlo, Pavle, Pavli, Pavėl are basically variants of the same Latin name that entered Albanian through a different language and influence. Pal indicates that it entered Albaniam via Latin, Pavėl/Pavllo that it entered Albania through contact between Albanian and Greek and other variants that it entered Albanian via an intermediate Slavic form. So which is "more" Albanian? Well, I would argue that "Pal" and "Pavėl" are the closest to having that designation as they were formed within the Albanian language and show a very old contact with the Catholic and Byzantine churches . Later Slavic-influenced forms are pretty much straightforward adoptions.

Sure, not all Slavic names point to a Slavic origin, but all point to Slavic cultural influence Some names are translations in Slavic: Burmazi became Velislav, and Kryethi Svinoglav and Svinjar, but quite a good chunk of those Slavic names belong to Slavic people. If you read again and again the defters it's pretty obvious which are Slavicized communities and which pretty much Slavic. In 1571, in western Kosovo, of Opoja's 25 villages, 24 have typical Albanian names and 1 has mixed Slavic toponymy. It's safe to argue that in this community we're dealing with an Orthodox population that had mixed Albanian and Slavic names.

Now, if you go a few km to the south of Opoja in Gora, pretty much all names are Slavic and they're not Christian names in a Slavic form either for the most part. Why is there such a radical difference in such a small geographical area? The most probable answer is the simplest. The Bozhidars, Pribislavs etc. of this area were Slavs. And that is the reason why to this day, the people of Gora are a Slavic community. And I respect that. Names can change because of social factors, but basic cultural identity is something that changes only gradually and only under constant influence by state institutions and other communities.

Now, let's go back to Kraja. It showed Slavic influence in the medieval ages in its anthroponymy. It was after all very close to the centre of medieval Duklja, but what I find interesting is that the people of Kraja have an absolutely minimal Slavic influence in their lineages (which shows matrilineally for the most part). That is in contrast to what would be expected, so it raises a couple of interesting points a) about the lineages of the Slavophone communities that lived around Kraja b) about the kin organization among Albanian communities and its function as a hub of cultural preservation.

I agree with you for the most part. I think that is the proper way to analyze these defters.

I do not know the history of Gora and Opoja in detail so I can't comment much on that. The logic you use makes sense though.

I would like to add that there is a major difference between Opoja and Gora. Gora is highly mountainous and rugged. Changes in in rugged areas occur at a much slower pace. We are still not certain if Kosova experienced population movements from Albania or a change of population culture and/or language. I imagine it was a combination of both. If that is the case, we can better understand why Gora maintained Slavic customs while Opoja didn't. This is of-course speculation.

trdbr1234
03-20-2020, 06:35 PM
You still don't get it, Orthodox Albanians were not the same during the Medieval as they are now. During the Medieval, Albanians from Kosovo for example who adhered to the Serbian Orthodox Church were required to learn the language. As a result, there is Slavic influence. There was no Albanian Orthodox Church during this time period, where Albanian liturgy was used. My point is that through the church there was originally an influx of Slavic influence as shown by names that are originally used among Christian Slavic-speakers, again if you want to believe that Bogdan, Petro and Milo didn't come from Orthodox Slavic influence then that's up to you.

I am fairly certain you have the capacity to understand your mistake. The names should be devided in 3 categories. Albanian, not Albanian, and both/neutral. This neutral category is the Orthodox Christian names found in both Serbs and Albanians which do not give a clear indication of origin. Pavel is in Albanian form however and belongs in the Albanian category. Bogdan is neutral as it exists in both. Radislav belongs in the Serbian category, and so on.

Only in this way can we understand the demographics of the area.

Kelmendasi
03-20-2020, 06:39 PM
I am fairly certain you have the capacity to understand your mistake. The names should be devided in 3 categories. Albanian, not Albanian, and both/neutral. This neutral category is the Orthodox Christian names found in both Serbs and Albanians which do not give a clear indication of origin. Pavel is in Albanian form however and belongs in the Albanian category. Bogdan is neutral as it exists in both. Radislav belongs in the Serbian category, and so on.

Only in this way can we understand the demographics of the area.
Sure, with this I agree. However, you didn't get the point of my posts.

Anyways, we have strayed quite a bit from the topic of Shestani and Kraja. If you want to continue the discussion on anthroponyms we could do so on another thread or in PM.

Johane Derite
03-20-2020, 06:55 PM
Radislav belongs in the Serbian category, and so on.


Here you have Vladislav, sin Berisha (son of Berisha, Albanian clan) in the defter of Kosovo from 15th century. Even a pure slav name can be albanian ethnically, as we see today many albanians with all sorts of names without being a second ethnicity.

https://scontent.fprn1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67513703_665019230680862_4227078848191135744_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=1480c5&_nc_ohc=DZUd4EHP1XEAX_wtXUu&_nc_ht=scontent.fprn1-1.fna&oh=a940e13d31809e573aa300520177c398&oe=5E9A1484

gjenetiks
03-20-2020, 07:08 PM
Well, I hadn't seen this lovely discussion here :P

I would argue that Pal, Pavlo, Pavle, Pavli, Pavėl are basically variants of the same Latin name that entered Albanian through a different language and influence. Pal indicates that it entered Albaniam via Latin, Pavėl/Pavllo that it entered Albania through contact between Albanian and Greek and other variants that it entered Albanian via an intermediate Slavic form. So which is "more" Albanian? Well, I would argue that "Pal" and "Pavėl" are the closest to having that designation as they were formed within the Albanian language and show a very old contact with the Catholic and Byzantine churches . Later Slavic-influenced forms are pretty much straightforward adoptions.

Sure, not all Slavic names point to a Slavic origin, but all point to Slavic cultural influence Some names are translations in Slavic: Burmazi became Velislav, and Kryethi Svinoglav and Svinjar, but quite a good chunk of those Slavic names belong to Slavic people. If you read again and again the defters it's pretty obvious which are Slavicized communities and which pretty much Slavic. In 1571, in western Kosovo, of Opoja's 25 villages, 24 have typical Albanian names and 1 has mixed Slavic toponymy. It's safe to argue that in this community we're dealing with an Orthodox population that had mixed Albanian and Slavic names.

Now, if you go a few km to the south of Opoja in Gora, pretty much all names are Slavic and they're not Christian names in a Slavic form either for the most part. Why is there such a radical difference in such a small geographical area? The most probable answer is the simplest. The Bozhidars, Pribislavs etc. of this area were Slavs. And that is the reason why to this day, the people of Gora are a Slavic community. And I respect that. Names can change because of social factors, but basic cultural identity is something that changes only gradually and only under constant influence by state institutions and other communities.

Now, let's go back to Kraja. It showed Slavic influence in the medieval ages in its anthroponymy. It was after all very close to the centre of medieval Duklja, but what I find interesting is that the people of Kraja have an absolutely minimal Slavic influence in their lineages (which shows matrilineally for the most part). That is in contrast to what would be expected, so it raises a couple of interesting points a) about the lineages of the Slavophone communities that lived around Kraja b) about the kin organization among Albanian communities and its function as a hub of cultural preservation.

Where's the evidence or good information on this?

I believe Kraja is probably less slavic influenced than Shestani is, all based and dependent on the different katuns.

trdbr1234
03-20-2020, 07:19 PM
Here you have Vladislav, sin Berisha (son of Berisha, Albanian clan) in the defter of Kosovo from 15th century. Even a pure slav name can be albanian ethnically, as we see today many albanians with all sorts of names without being a second ethnicity.

https://scontent.fprn1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67513703_665019230680862_4227078848191135744_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=1480c5&_nc_ohc=DZUd4EHP1XEAX_wtXUu&_nc_ht=scontent.fprn1-1.fna&oh=a940e13d31809e573aa300520177c398&oe=5E9A1484

I agree.

I think the best way is to tally the differing influences through time because the influence of the Serbian church in Kosovo has been great. It is wrong to take Orthodox Christian names and define them as Slavic. That would be a disservice to historical truth.

Kelmendasi
03-20-2020, 08:18 PM
Found an interesting text on the history of Shestani and Kraja during the Ottoman occupation https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326679416_Famullite_e_Krajes_dhe_te_Shestanit_gjat e_pushtimit_osman.

The text mentions that in 1614 a certain Lalė Ndreka was the head of the village Gėshtenjė (recorded as Keshtenja) in Krajė. Was wondering if there maybe could be a connection to Lala Drekali (Lale Drekalov in Serbian) of the Kuēi since Drekali is thought to be a variant of the name Ndreka. However, Lala Drekali himself was born in Kuē and by this point in time he was one of the heads of the Kuēi. Also, as far as I know, he isn't mentioned as having held land in Krajė or Shestan, so it's likely just a coincidence.

gjenetiks
03-20-2020, 08:23 PM
Found an interesting text on the history of Shestani and Kraja during the Ottoman occupation https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326679416_Famullite_e_Krajes_dhe_te_Shestanit_gjat e_pushtimit_osman.

The text mentions that in 1614 a certain Lalė Ndreka was the head of the village Gėshtenjė (recorded as Keshtenja) in Krajė. Was wondering if there maybe could be a connection to Lala Drekali (Lale Drekalov in Serbian) of the Kuēi since Drekali is thought to be a variant of the name Ndreka. However, Lala Drekali himself was born in Kuē and by this point in time he was one of the heads of the Kuēi. Also, as far as I know, he isn't mentioned as having held land in Krajė or Shestan, so it's likely just a coincidence.

Very cool, good find!

Maleschreiber
03-20-2020, 08:43 PM
Some names are not just the Slavic variants of Orthodox names, they are plainly Slavic, the people who hold them might not be depending on the conditions. Vladislav is a Slavic name. You don't have to speak any Slavic language to understand that. This Vladislav Berisha was not a Slav (as all Hungarians who are called Laszlo are also not Slavs), but we know that because of his father's name and the fact that the names of the other villagers are basically Christian (there's no way to distinguish in Ottoman Turkish if the name written is Gjorgji, Zorzi or Djordje so a Serbian translator would naturally opt for the Serbian variant). Many Vlachs present too. That is what makes us say "yeah, he was Albanian and was given a Slavic name because of cultural influence". But yeah, I agree let's return to Kraja-Shestani here.

EDIT: And a final point about on my part. I think it's a waste of time to speculate whether someone with a Slavic name (about whom we have no other evidence other than the fact that other people who held such names in the area weren't Slavs) was himself a Slav. It really can't lead anywhere, because there is no data that may point to him not being a Slav.

What I think is far more interesting and productive is to focus on the lineages of actual living people. I'm reading Giuseppe Valentini's "Onomasticon" about Albanian refugees in Sicily and quite a few were from the area of Malesia.

There are many third-generation people in the US who are searching for their roots in the communities of Malesia and there's no proper research to guide them. I think we should all focus on that.

gjenetiks
03-20-2020, 09:34 PM
These are videos of people from Shestani, who I believe have been assimilated. I don't know which katuns these people are from, maybe Ljare, Gurrze, etc.. It seems there was coexistence between albanians and slavs in the region and higher in certain villages. This would indicate that slavs maybe migrated here, or were already in Shestan in moderate numbers. Most of the family surnames though, are very much original albanian names, some from Malesi, so this would indicate that whatever mixing if it did occur, was done maternally between albanian and montenegrin tribes.

Also important to note, that some assimilation might've occurred because families and members moved to inner tivar, where there were more opportunities and therefore forgot albanian language.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoVBOsWODc0

Here they are dancing and singing in albanian


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6SMW9aT4Pw

gjenetiks
03-20-2020, 09:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8TwlMjIp3s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eztzqdR8Rt0

Exercitus
03-20-2020, 10:00 PM
Well Maleschreiber you mean this i supose ; http://www.unibesa.it/images/MatteoMandalAlbanesiinSicilia.pdf

Sviluppi onomastico-toponomastici tribali
delle comunitą albanesi di Sicilia

36897

Exercitus
03-20-2020, 10:09 PM
Well about Opoja and Gora might be helpful this Study (based in Selami Pulaha's work) concerning the anthroponymy in Opoja and Gora villages in the basis of the Defters of 1571 and 1591, from page 127-149!!

https://www.academia.edu/14955188/Opoja_dhe_Gora_nd%C3%ABr_shekuj

Exercitus
03-20-2020, 10:16 PM
About Sandjak of Prizren in 1571 (the maps are totaly INaccurate, , arbitrary and tendentious) please check the Anthroponymy;

https://www.academia.edu/831644/Detailed_register_of_the_Prizren_sancak_from_1571_ in_Serbian_

also the Onomastics in the Vilayet of Pashtrik 1452,

https://www.academia.edu/35493307/Vilayet_of_Pastric_Pa%C5%A1trik_in_1452_53._in_Ser bian_

Exercitus
03-20-2020, 10:43 PM
Regarding the fact why Albanians in Kosovo and Montenegro carried Slavic names, the best explanations are given by Selami Pulaha in "Popullsia Shqiptare e Kosoves Gjate Shekujve XV XVI"

https://vdocuments.mx/179876370-s-pulaha-popullsia-shqiptare-e-kosoves-gjate-shekujve-xv-xvi.html

36899

36900

36901

36902

etc etc

Kelmendasi
03-20-2020, 10:56 PM
These are videos of people from Shestani, who I believe have been assimilated. I don't know which katuns these people are from, maybe Ljare, Gurrze, etc.. It seems there was coexistence between albanians and slavs in the region and higher in certain villages. This would indicate that slavs maybe migrated here, or were already in Shestan in moderate numbers. Most of the family surnames though, are very much original albanian names, some from Malesi, so this would indicate that whatever mixing if it did occur, was done maternally between albanian and montenegrin tribes.

Also important to note, that some assimilation might've occurred because families and members moved to inner tivar, where there were more opportunities and therefore forgot albanian language.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoVBOsWODc0

Here they are dancing and singing in albanian


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6SMW9aT4Pw
I wonder where in Shestan they are from, as all the villages in the region are inhabited almost exclusively by ethnic Albanians as far as I am aware. Ljarja is inhabited exclusively by Albanians, it seems that some of the families arrived from Kelmend (for example the Dabaj family). Gurrėzė is also exclusively inhabited by Albanians, some of which are related to those from villages such as Ljare. Perhaps they are from the villages located just to the north of Shestan such as Godinje (which had a Catholic Albanian population, prior to their conversion to Orthodoxy and assimilation). I also see that in the videos some are wearing typical Montenegrin folk clothing, not Albanian.

The surname of the performer; Bušković, apparently originated in Vranjina. From Vranjina they moved to villages such as Rijeka Crnojevića. Doesn't seem to show up in Shestan however.

Edit: I see that one of the videos is titled "Nikola Bušković - Crmnicanka". Crmnicanka suggests that these people are from the ethnographic region of Crmnica which is just north of Shestan. The region has a majority Orthodox Montenegrin population, with a number of Serbo-Montenegrin families as well.

gjenetiks
03-20-2020, 11:07 PM
I wonder where in Shestan they are from, as all the villages in the region are inhabited almost exclusively by ethnic Albanians as far as I am aware. Ljarja is inhabited exclusively by Albanians, it seems that some of the families arrived from Kelmend (for example the Dabaj family). Gurrėzė is also exclusively inhabited by Albanians, some of which are related to those from villages such as Ljare. Perhaps they are from the villages located just to the north of Shestan such as Godinje (which had a Catholic Albanian population, prior to their assimilation)

The surname of the performer; Bušković, apparently originated in Vranjina. From Vranjina they moved to villages such as Rijeka Crnojevića. Doesn't seem to show up in Shestan however.

Same, I wonder which exact villages. I know that a lot of the older generation likely speak albanian and very well.

Some have been assimilated. Others probably have a dual albo-mne identity. From these villages specifically speaking. Villages like Muriqi, Bes, etc.. are all exclusively albanian.

Here's a wedding.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtMlpAiCDr4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwqUuRxnHks

gjenetiks
03-20-2020, 11:11 PM
I wonder where in Shestan they are from, as all the villages in the region are inhabited almost exclusively by ethnic Albanians as far as I am aware. Ljarja is inhabited exclusively by Albanians, it seems that some of the families arrived from Kelmend (for example the Dabaj family). Gurrėzė is also exclusively inhabited by Albanians, some of which are related to those from villages such as Ljare. Perhaps they are from the villages located just to the north of Shestan such as Godinje (which had a Catholic Albanian population, prior to their conversion to Orthodoxy and assimilation). I also see that in the videos some are wearing typical Montenegrin folk clothing, not Albanian.

The surname of the performer; Bušković, apparently originated in Vranjina. From Vranjina they moved to villages such as Rijeka Crnojevića. Doesn't seem to show up in Shestan however.

Edit: I see that one of the videos is titled "Nikola Bušković - Crmnicanka". Crmnicanka suggests that these people are from the ethnographic region of Crmnica which is just north of Shestan. The region has a majority Orthodox Montenegrin population, with a number of Serbo-Montenegrin families as well.

Crmnicanka is a song and in the title it says u Sestanima which means in Shestan, so he's performing the song there. The same people in the first videos 3 videos I posted are in the crmnicanka video and in the second video they are speaking albanian.

I just found the song. Same lyrics as what Buskovic sings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy3P70JLITA

Kelmendasi
03-20-2020, 11:12 PM
Same, I wonder which exact villages. I know that a lot of the older generation likely speak albanian and very well.

Some have been assimilated. Others probably have a dual albo-mne identity. From these villages specifically speaking. Villages like Muriqi, Bes, etc.. are all exclusively albanian.

Here's a wedding.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtMlpAiCDr4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwqUuRxnHks
I'm not too sure if the people from the previous videos were even from Shestan. One of the titles suggested that they were from Crmnica which is the region located just north of Shestan, and has a primarily Orthodox Montenegrin population.

Kelmendasi
03-20-2020, 11:15 PM
Crmnicanka is a song and in the title it says u Sestanima which means in Shestan, so he's performing the song there. The same people in the first videos 3 videos I posted are in the crmnicanka video and in the second video they are speaking albanian.

I just found the song. Same lyrics as what Buskovic sings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy3P70JLITA
Yeah, u šestanima does mean "in Shestan". Not too sure then, maybe they just invited him to perform there? However, the presence of Montenegrin folk dress confuses things even further.

gjenetiks
03-20-2020, 11:22 PM
Yeah, u šestanima does mean "in Shestan". Not too sure then, maybe they just invited him to perform there? However, the presence of Montenegrin folk dress confuses things even further.

Yeah, and you can see some of the costumes in the first couple videos with Buskovic (aside from the MNE ones) are also present in the wedding. These are Shestan costumes.

You can see them here. https://www.facebook.com/Šestani-Шестани-Shestani-176830411709/ The videos I posted are on this page.

So those people from the videos are from Shestani. Again, like I said, a lot are assimilated into MNE identity and wear MNE costumes, from these particular villages. But most of Shestan and Kraj is exclusively albanian, w/ albo identity like me

Exercitus
03-20-2020, 11:24 PM
About Shestani, it's easy to determine what they are (were!!)

36903

36904

36905

Kelmendasi
03-20-2020, 11:46 PM
So those people from the videos are from Shestani. Again, like I said, a lot are assimilated into MNE identity and wear MNE costumes, from these particular villages. But most of Shestan and Kraj is exclusively albanian.
Which villages in particular have began to adopt Montenegrin identities? I don't think that they have began to fully assimilate as some Albanian clothing is being worn and the language is still being used, but rather some have began adopting dual Albanian-Montenegrin identities. It's odd considering how these villages are practically exclusively inhabited by ethnic Albanians.

gjenetiks
03-21-2020, 12:01 AM
Which villages in particular have began to adopt Montenegrin identities? I don't think that they have began to fully assimilate as some Albanian clothing is being worn and the language is still being used, but rather some have began adopting dual Albanian-Montenegrin identities. It's odd considering how these villages are practically exclusively inhabited by ethnic Albanians.

I would assume it to be the catholic villages, like Ljare, Dobrec, Pinq, even though they are still pretty much albanians and they know it. The older generation still know albanian, even younger can speak it somewhat. So they aren't really assimilated like Sandzaklije for ex. I think it was normal for Shestan people to dance in Montenegrin and party like this, across all of Shestan even Bes, I believe in history we had some skirmishes with Montenegrins, but we often fought for Montenegro, so it was a place of coexistence. That Montenegrin dance you see, where they jump and put there hands out like a bird is something we do too (Shestan). In seoca and godinje is mostly where they speak what we call nashke (serbian) and have been fully assimilated and or some are slavs. There is still a lot to learn about this region.

In the documentary about Kraja by Marin Mema, you can see that some have assimilated and don't speak albanian at all which is sad, but this is definitely not the whole region at all.

Kelmendasi
03-21-2020, 12:14 AM
I would assume it to be the catholic villages, like Ljare, Dobrec, Pinq, even though they are still pretty much albanians and they know it. The older generation still know albanian, even younger can speak it somewhat. So they aren't really assimilated like Sandzaklije for ex. I think it was normal for Shestan people to dance in Montenegrin and party like this, across all of Shestan even Bes, I believe in history we had some skirmishes with Montenegrins, but we often fought for Montenegro, so it was a place of coexistence. That Montenegrin dance you see, where they jump and put there hands out like a bird is something we do too (Shestan). In seoca and godinje is mostly where they speak what we call nashke (serbian) and have been fully assimilated and or some are slavs. There is still a lot to learn about this region.

In the documentary about Kraja by Marin Mema, you can see that some have assimilated and don't speak albanian at all which is sad, but this is definitely not the whole region at all.
Perhaps it has something to do with the movement of people away from the region.. The village of Gurrėzė for example had almost 100 inhabitants during the late 1950s, but today there are less than 10 inhabitants. Also in Ljare, almost 300 people had migrated away since the 1940s. The loss of people may correlate with a partial, or even full, loss of identity in this case as the sense of community is reduced. Some of it may also have to do with the government or nationalist movements by pro-Serbs as is shown in Marin's documentary.

Godinje was inhabited by Catholic Albanians who settled in the area during the 16th and 18th centuries. It is divided into 4 brotherhoods; Nikači (Nikēi), Perazići (Peraj) and Lekovići (Lekaj) and Velovići (Velaj). Both the Nikači and Perazići arrived from Kelmend (Nikē) during the 16th Century whilst the Lekovići and Velovići are believed to have come from Dinosha in Gruda during the 18th Century. Today the inhabitants identify as Montenegrins and are Orthodox. Though some of the Vela migrated away from Godinje prior to assimilation and now live in other villages of Shestan, where they identify as Albanian and are Muslim.

gjenetiks
03-21-2020, 12:21 AM
Perhaps it has something to do with the movement of people away from the region.. The village of Gurrėzė for example had almost 100 inhabitants during the late 1950s, but today there are less than 10 inhabitants. Also in Ljare, almost 300 people had migrated away since the 1940s. The loss of people may correlate with a partial, or even full, loss of identity in this case as the sense of community is reduced. Some of it may also have to do with the government or nationalist movements by pro-Serbs as is shown in Marin's documentary.

Absolutely. Large swaths of individuals moved to Tivar and therefore lost their mother tongue and identity. Albanians in Montenegro were also a persecuted minority and suffered throughout history, so some assimilation stopped this and made you fit in. It's not similar to Kosovo where albanians were the majority and had each other's backs. Albanians in Montenegro were always a minority ever since they became inhabitants of the country.

Maleschreiber
03-21-2020, 01:23 AM
Crmnica is an interesting region because along with Mrkojevici it is the only region in Montenegro were Slavic names with the Albanian suffix -za are so widespread in the Middle Ages. I checked M. Sufflay's Izabrani Politicki Spisi (his collected works) and he writes the following:

Crmnica appears with three villages Trnovo, Orahovo, Godinje and two names: Crmnica and Kucevo. This Sufflay considers to be derivative of Kuq-evo (red land). (Nu zapravo bila su to tek dva imena, arbansko i slovensko, za jednu i istu oveću pokrajinu između Budve i Skadarskoga blata.) He further writes that:

"As can been in the charter of the monastery of Sv. Nikola in Vranjina in the 13th century the area showed a strong mixture of Slavic and Albanian populations. In 1278 in Dubrovnik a person from the area is mentioned "Bardogna de Cozoa de Genia". In 1333, there was a quarry of red limestone near Bar (incidendo iuxta Antibarum lapides rubeas circa centum)."

Seoca is recorded in 1614 by Mariano Bolizza as a village whose leader-commander is a Gjon Krytha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryethi . This area must have seen much population movement.

gjenetiks
03-21-2020, 01:30 AM
Perhaps it has something to do with the movement of people away from the region.. The village of Gurrėzė for example had almost 100 inhabitants during the late 1950s, but today there are less than 10 inhabitants. Also in Ljare, almost 300 people had migrated away since the 1940s. The loss of people may correlate with a partial, or even full, loss of identity in this case as the sense of community is reduced. Some of it may also have to do with the government or nationalist movements by pro-Serbs as is shown in Marin's documentary.

Godinje was inhabited by Catholic Albanians who settled in the area during the 16th and 18th centuries. It is divided into 4 brotherhoods; Nikači (Nikēi), Perazići (Peraj) and Lekovići (Lekaj) and Velovići (Velaj). Both the Nikači and Perazići arrived from Kelmend (Nikē) during the 16th Century whilst the Lekovići and Velovići are believed to have come from Dinosha in Gruda during the 18th Century. Today the inhabitants identify as Montenegrins and are Orthodox. Though some of the Vela migrated away from Godinje prior to assimilation and now live in other villages of Shestan, where they identify as Albanian and are Muslim.

It's just weird because I can see visible what I perceive is Slavic/Montenegrin influence in my families phenotype, including myself, and Shestan-Kraj is albanian. Where and when did Montenegrins enter the region, and where did this mixing take place? We've never heard of this mixing in my family. This is why I say it could just be a natural shestani phenotype, since this is a region where slavs and albanians lived together since the middle ages, zeta/duklja. In those shestani videos w/ buskovic, you can see visible slavic influence as well. If this is the case, wouldn't the slavic genes be diluted by now?

Maybe my family on one side of my family, took slavic bride?

Oh and for confirmation, this video is same location as crmnicanka video, and they are singing about shestani


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51GcXTil4EU

Keqa
03-21-2020, 02:49 AM
Well about Opoja and Gora might be helpful this Study (based in Selami Pulaha's work) concerning the anthroponymy in Opoja and Gora villages in the basis of the Defters of 1571 and 1591, from page 127-149!!

https://www.academia.edu/14955188/Opoja_dhe_Gora_nd%C3%ABr_shekuj


Lidhur me raportet e tyre, autorėt S.Islami, K.Frashėri, etj., shkruaj-nė: “Kėshtu, derisa mė parė, gjatė regjimit tė bashkėsive fshatare, fqinjė-sia shqiptare–sllave qe njė simbiozė paqėsore, tani me shthurjen e bashkė-sive dhe me lidhjen e marrėdhėnieve feudale, ajo u kthye nė njė burimgrindjesh tė vazhdueshme dhe konfliktesh tė shpeshta pėr tokė dhe pėr tėnėnshtruar njėri – tjetrin. Si pasojė e kėtyre grindjeve dhe konflikteve me shqiptarėt, fshatarėt sllavė filluan tė shpėrngulen edhe nė viset kodrinoremalore”. Dhe mė poshtė pohojnė: “Nė kėto krahina sllave, hapėn tokatė reja me anėn e prerjeve dhe tė pastrimit tė pyjeve. Mė tepėr se kudo, kydepėrtim duhet tė kėtė ndodhur nė krahinat e Shqipėrisė sė jugut. Kėtė etregojnė emrat me rrėnjėn sllave treb d.m.th., rrap pylli, qė mbajnė disafshatra malore si:Trebickė, Trebeshinė, Trebisht, Tėrbaē, etj. Njė depėrtim i tillė ndodhi nga territoret e Maqedonisė, si shtet qėkishte lulėzuar nė shekullin IV para erės sonė, nė kohėn e Filipit II.Popullata e kėtij shteti tė ri pėrbėhej nga fise ilire, trake dhe nga disa fisetė afėrta me grekėt. Por me dyndjen e popujve sllavė, kjo popullatė ilire-trakase-greke asimilohej, ashtu siē u asimilua edhe populli bullgar, meorigjinė tartare-mongole. Kėshtu, kishte ndodhur edhe nė viset e Gorės sėsotme. Fshatarėt maqedonas tani tė sllavizuar, qė ishin vendosur kėtu pėrshkak te pozitės gjeografike tė kėsaj ane, kėtė krahinė e kishin emėr-tuar:Gorė, e qė kur pėrkthehet nga sllavishtja nė shqipe d.m.th: mal,malėsi. Kurse banorėt quheshin goranė qė do tė thotė: malėsorė. Kyemėrtim mė vonė u pėrhap edhe nė Opojė e mė gjerė, dhe pėrdorėt edhesot e kėsaj ditė.

Quite the statement from mister Qafleshi.

Exercitus
03-21-2020, 12:08 PM
Regarding the Medieval Albanian Anthroponymic uniformity, take a look at this two Villages - Gika = Gjika - .

1) Pllajnik, Opolje\Opoje (Southern Kosovo) year 1571, a Albanian Christian Village.

36911

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pllanjik/@42.0772501,20.635854,18135m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1353c27c2226743b:0x3c9fd 5563c36748!8m2!3d42.0768288!4d20.7055417



2) Gavala, (Southern\Central Eubea) year 1474, a Albanian Christian Village.

36912


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gavalas+345+00,+Grecia/@38.4516121,24.0501953,9567m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x14a15fc8c91f7879:0x 3004f65469f7b287!2sLepoura+345+00,+Grecia!3b1!8m2! 3d38.4060178!4d24.1083052!3m4!1s0x14a15ee63bbb57cd :0xf366b493ffe14743!8m2!3d38.4517067!4d24.0846491

Exercitus
03-23-2020, 10:15 PM
Hello,
If i may, i wanted to add something concerning the Albanians in Macedonia. I remember that Oliver Schmitt in his book regarding Skenderbeg, described the Castle of Modric & Svetigrad & Upper Dibra area etc as inhabited by Bulgarian people (based upon the Studies of different Historians; D.Gjorgiev, G. Palikruševa, A. Stojanovski, M. Sokoloski etc that have translated the Defters of the years1453, 1467, 1483 etc), personally i had not the chance to read those Defters because they are not so much 'accessible' by the public, meanwhile even I.Rexha has utilized some parts of those Defters !! Anyway, accidently few days ago i encountered this Study ГЕОГРАФИЈА НА НАСЕЛБИ - Општина Демир Хисар -, which has the list of the inhabitants of almost 100 villages around the Demir Hisar area (south\central Macedonia) in the basis of the Defter of 1467, so we are speaking about a region that is quite far away (toward eastern) from Modric, Diber\Debar, Struga etc . I knew from Rexha's work that Kicevo\Kercove area had a important Albanian Orthodox population, but i didn't ecxpected that other regions where also Inhabited by this ethnicity - considering what the abovementioned D.Gjorgiev, G. Palikruševa, A. Stojanovski, M. Sokoloski had concluded; that the ethnic borders between Bulgarians and Albanians in the XV were Dibra(city), Golo brdo(Golloborda), Western Struga, so practically corresponding with the Actual Macedonian-Albanian border area!!! -. Well after reading that Study regarding Demir Hisar region, i constated few facts;

1) From the villages Zheleznets to Smilevo, in the hilly area in the east of Demir Hisar, from Sladuevo to Kocishte north of Demir Hisar there were a majority of Albanian-speaking Christian Orthodox community !!
2) The settlments in the Valley (e.g Obednik, Demir Hisar, Slepche, Zhvan, Babino, Brezovo etc) had a majority Slavic-speaking Christian Orthodox community !!
3) Worthed noted the presence of Vlachs in Golemo Ilino (names like Jon, Jonče, Vlaje, Šarko, Oavle ?) and Greeks (Grk) in Mrenoga.

Few examples;

Kocishta, north of Demir Hisar, year 1467 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kochishte,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.3443323,21.1537353,4586m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1356d15d34a34723:0x 3dbd92c073ad8262!2sPribiltsi,+Macedonia+del+Nord!3 b1!8m2!3d41.2713475!4d21.2017835!3m4!1s0x1356cdf18 7f29e0f:0x96a1563936267e3!8m2!3d41.3446381!4d21.17 16038

36935

36936

Smilevo south of Demir Hisar, year 1467 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Smilevo,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.1542535,21.1092679,575m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x1356d15d34a3472 3:0x3dbd92c073ad8262!2sPribiltsi,+Macedonia+del+No rd!3b1!8m2!3d41.2713475!4d21.2017835!3m4!1s0x13572 ae5bd87cc63:0x76fb1893aa4f51b1!8m2!3d41.1541614!4d 21.1108679

36937

36938

Maleschreiber
03-23-2020, 10:41 PM
Nice findings! Why don't you start a new thread about Albanians in that area?

Exercitus
03-24-2020, 11:57 AM
Well, Malschreiber the problem is that i do not have this Books; 'Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod', pod red. na Metodija Sokoloski, Aleksandar Stojanovski, https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/1031938 which would provide me the necessary knowledge to open such a thread (ethnic Albanian Orthodox in Western Macedonia). The abovementioned Study about Demir Hisar analyze only 50 villages (sorry for my lapsus, also the area from Zheleznets to Smilevo it's in the western part of Demir Hisar!!), I.Rexha published only partly some Anthroponimic material regarding Polog\Pollog area, Kicevo\Kercove, Prilep, Bitola\Manastir etc, Nebi Dervishi has published also some Studies concerning Reka area, and every one has used the translation of Defters in ''Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod' as Basic Material (although some Albanian Historians criticizes the 'inaccuracy' and arbitrary in translating\interpreting the typical Albanian Onomastics, by their Macedonian collegues!!).

Anyway, both S.Pulaha and I.Rexha have noticed a interesant phenomenon that occured from the second part of the XV century among the Albanians, (in Kosovo - Dukagjin\Metohije and Gollak\Goljak etc - also in some parts of Montenegro) a Onomastic shift toward the typical Folk Albanian names, a kind of 'revival' of their old Anthroponymy!! Something that could be explained by the new context (Ottoman invasion and consolidation of their power), and consequently the decrease of the Slavic Orthodox Religious influence, which was one of the principal factors of such widespreaded typical Slavic Anthroponymy - both Folk and Christian's one - , among the Orthodox Albanians particularly those in direct contact with the Slavophone communities!!

After i have read this Study regarding Demir Hisar area, i could simply confirm their deduction; take a look below, a Albanian son with typical Folk Onomastic and a father with Slavic & Christian Anthroponymy;

- поп Герг;& Ѓорго, син на поп: Јин!, негов брат (ДЕМИР ХИСАР) -> Priest Gjergj & Gjorgo son of the Priest (other one), Gjin his brother(DEMIR HISAR)
- Ѓон, брат на Андреја; Андреја, брат на Рајо;(МУРГАШЕВО) -> Gjon brother of Andrea, Andrea brother of Rajo (MUGAZEVO)
- Музак, син на Черп (ВЛАШЦИ) -> Muzak son of Cerp! (VLASHCI)
- Герг, син на Добрин(СУВО ГРЛО) -> Gjergj son of Dobrin (SUVO GRLA)
- Гин, син на Никола(СЛАДУЕВО) -> Gjin son of Nikolla (SLADUEVO)
- Гин, син на Сиве;(РАСТОЈЦА) -> Gjin son of Sive\Zive (RASTOJCA)
- Герг, син на Тодор; & Коло, син на Којчин;(ПРИБИЛЦИ) -> Gjergj son of Todor & Kola son of Kojcin (PRIBILTSI)
- Гон, син на Добре(ОБЕДНИК) -> Gjon son of Dobre (OBEDNIK)
- Гин, син на Драгише; Продан, негов брат;(МРЕНОГА) -> Gjin son of Dragisha, Prodan his brother (MRENOGA)
- Бардо!, син на Богдан; (ЕДИНАКОВЦИ) -> Bardh son of Bogdan (EDINAKOVCI)
- Герг, син на Лазор(ГОЛЕМО ИЛИНО) -> Gjergj son of Llazor (GOLEMO ILINO)
- Гин, син на Павел; & Ѓон, син на Бонде; (ВИРОВО) -> Gjin son of Pavel & Gjon son of Bogde (VIROVO)
- Гон, син на Жан;(ВЕЛМЕВЦИ) -> Gjon son of Zhan (VELMEVTSI)
- Микше, син на Добрин; & Герг, син на Баштре;(БОИШТЕ) -> Menkshe son of Dobrin & Gjergj son of Bashtre! (BOISHTE)
- Герг, син на Степан(БАЗЕРНИК) -> Gjergj son of Stepan (BAZERNIK)
etc !!

Exercitus
03-24-2020, 01:11 PM
In this short article "Анализа на неколку аспекти од поединечниот фискален пописен дефтер за Битолската Нахија 1467-1468" is mentioned a old Tosk Albanian village Древеник\Drevenik (which is located precisely in the East of Demir Hisar, in a hilly area.. !!!)https://www.google.com/maps/place/Drevenik,+Macedonia+del+Nord/@41.2001757,21.2785221,4596m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1356d9d2797faea9:0x97d05 8dbf6848138!8m2!3d41.2000307!4d21.2960536, generally is considered by the Macedonian Historians that the muslim Albanians are immigrants\colonizers that came in this area during the XVIII century.... https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA


Now the guy who wrote that article "discovered" some incongruences between the official Historical Macedonian version and the data's obtained by the Defter of Manastir\Bitola 1467-1468, concretely;


Macedonian
1) Куриозитет во овој попис претставува с. Древеник кое има 22 семејства, 1 неженет и 1 вдовица. ..... . Застапени се имињата: Ѓерг, Ѓон, Прогон, Гин, Ишкор итн. Може да се согледа дека овие имиња се всушност карактеристични и типични за албанскиот етницитет пред најголемиот дел од албанската популација да биде исламизиран.
English
1)Curiosity in this census represents the village. Drevnik which has 22 families, 1 single and 1 widow. ...... The names are: Gjergj, Gjon, Progon, Gjin, Skur\Zgur etc. It can be seen that these names are actually characteristic and typical of the Albanian ethnicity before the majority of the Albanian population is Islamized.


His deduction;

Macedonian
2) ...Оттука би можело да се извлече заклучок дека албанското население било присутно на овие терени и како православно население кое подоцна се исламизирало и во суштина било домородно население кое повеќе или помалку се вклопувало во општата рамка на останатата христијанска популација од XV век на овие територии. Овој податок директно навлегува за во полемиката за тоа дали Албанците се домородно население или се колонизирани ......!!

English
2)... It can be deduced from this that the Albanian population was present in these areas and as an Orthodox population that later Islamized and was essentially an indigenous population that more or less fitted into the general framework of the rest of the 15th century Christian population. in these territories. This fact goes directly into the controversy over whether Albanians are indigenous or colonizers ...... !!

So it means clearly that the today tiny Muslim Albanian minority in that area are is in fact the succesor\descendants of a much more numerous community of Orthodox Albanians... No immigrants no colonizers here...just a gradual assimilation of a big part of Christian Albanians, local inhabitants !!

gjenetiks
03-27-2020, 11:34 PM
Perhaps it has something to do with the movement of people away from the region.. The village of Gurrėzė for example had almost 100 inhabitants during the late 1950s, but today there are less than 10 inhabitants. Also in Ljare, almost 300 people had migrated away since the 1940s. The loss of people may correlate with a partial, or even full, loss of identity in this case as the sense of community is reduced. Some of it may also have to do with the government or nationalist movements by pro-Serbs as is shown in Marin's documentary.

Godinje was inhabited by Catholic Albanians who settled in the area during the 16th and 18th centuries. It is divided into 4 brotherhoods; Nikači (Nikēi), Perazići (Peraj) and Lekovići (Lekaj) and Velovići (Velaj). Both the Nikači and Perazići arrived from Kelmend (Nikē) during the 16th Century whilst the Lekovići and Velovići are believed to have come from Dinosha in Gruda during the 18th Century. Today the inhabitants identify as Montenegrins and are Orthodox. Though some of the Vela migrated away from Godinje prior to assimilation and now live in other villages of Shestan, where they identify as Albanian and are Muslim.

I don't know if you've seen this already, but here is a small documentary on Godinje by Serbian media, which features some Lekovici individuals. Not so sure they are aware of their Albanian origins anymore. One of the guys in the doc I believe the guy named Janko Lekovic is deceased (RIP). The doc is by Serbian media, so it's certainly not nuanced and is probably slanted / wrong on a lot, but nonetheless I still found it interesting. Only drawback is it's in Serbian, but you can kinda pick some things up here and there from context.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT9PRLhsCyU

Keqa
03-31-2020, 10:31 PM
Interesting video.

Btw, Lekovici from Godinje have tested with 23andme and are CTS9219, so most likely related to Lulgjuraj.

gjenetiks
04-01-2020, 05:44 AM
Interesting video.

Btw, Lekovici from Godinje have tested with 23andme and are CTS9219, so most likely related to Lulgjuraj.

Yeah isaw they're R1B so probably related to some lulgjuraj

Maleschreiber
04-01-2020, 01:40 PM
Thanks for the videos gjenetiks! They're really informative.

So, about the Kryethi tribe it seems that they expanded themselves in many areas. They emigrated to Zadar first and then they moved to Cyprus where the surname still exists today as Groutas. From there they even established themselves in the Ottoman court as diplomats of European states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Crutta even went to Poland and established his line there (he became ennobled).

What's interesting is that when I was writing the article about Kryethi I came upon the "Krutta" surname in Poland and I thought that they just sounded the same. Little did I know that it was part of the loooong journey of an Albanian tribe from the coast of northern Albania. Here's a landmark that bears his name in Gmina Belsk Duży
, Poland.

37033

Wouldn't it be very interesting if there was a project that would map the genealogies of all the Krytha/Krutta/Groutas today from coastal Ulqin to rural Poland?

gjenetiks
05-28-2020, 04:21 AM
Can't find much info on Shestani. But I will say this, shestani albanians call slavophones "nashke" , like x person is speaking "nashke", any other albanians say this to denote slavic languages like serbo-croatian? Not sure I've heard other Albanians say this word.

Kelmendasi
05-28-2020, 11:42 AM
Can't find much info on Shestani. But I will say this, shestani albanians call slavophones "nashke" , like x person is speaking "nashke", any other albanians say this to denote slavic languages like serbo-croatian? Not sure I've heard other Albanians say this word.
I believe that some other Geg Albanian groups do also use the term nashke. There is a paper on the Gorani peoples of the Gora region which states that the neighbouring Albanians of Opoja and Luma refer to the Gorani language as nashke or shkenisht http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/res/article/download/75395/41601. It's clear that the term nashke stems from the Slavic word naš/naši, which essentially means "belonging to" or "ours", referring to those who speak a common language. Shkenisht however is a derivative of the Albanian Shkije/Shkja, which in this context is used to denote those who speak a Slavic language, though it was originally used to refer to a number of groups that didn't speak Albanian.

There are a number of South Slavic groups in the Balkans that refer to themselves as Našinci, such as the Gorani, so I think that the Albanian groups that use this term picked it up from the neighbouring South Slavic populace with whom they had contact.