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Ilgar
03-26-2020, 08:37 AM
Have heard about recent discovery of Ancient DNA from Mongolia. Does someone know which subclade is it?

Kelmendasi
03-26-2020, 12:18 PM
The sample is from this paper https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.004606v1. The sample (I6221) was from the Afanasievo culture (labelled as Mongolia_Chalcolithic_1_Afanasievo), based on this I'd say that it could be part of the same cluster as the J1-M267 found in the sample from the Khvalynsk culture, though it still hasn't been confirmed what cluster that sample fell under.

Agamemnon
03-26-2020, 01:09 PM
This is unlikely to be under P58, as the General said J1 has also been found in Khvalynsk. This is probably going to be F1614, much like Satsurblia (and quite possibly the Mesolithic Karelians from Yuzhniy Oleni Ostrov & Popovo). An other alternative, much less convincing this time, would be CTS1460, as it is found in a small cluster from Kazakhstan, but this is likely to be of relatively recent Eastern Anatolian (in all likeliness Turkish or Armenian) origin.

alienalp
03-26-2020, 02:36 PM
It may not belong to well known clades because they mark it as J1 despite all other samples with enough covarage has more recent subclade like R1b1a1a2a2, C2b1a1, D1b1d1 ...
And it actually has relatively good coverage.

Agamemnon
03-26-2020, 02:49 PM
We do have at least two P58 cases in the Jeong et al. paper though. One is dated to the MLBA (UUS001) and the other is Late Xiongnu (BRU001).
Really wonder which branch we're dealing with here.

Principe
03-26-2020, 03:01 PM
We do have at least two P58 cases in the Jeong et al. paper though. One is dated to the MLBA (UUS001) and the other is Late Xiongnu (BRU001).
Really wonder which branch we're dealing with here.

Did the Akkadians, Babylonians or Assyrians continue the same trade routes as the Sumerians into Central Asia? The MLBA sample might actually represent a descendant of an Eastern Semitic speaker or it could be an earlier split pre Z2331.

Agamemnon
03-26-2020, 03:22 PM
Did the Akkadians, Babylonians or Assyrians continue the same trade routes as the Sumerians into Central Asia? The MLBA sample might actually represent a descendant of an Eastern Semitic speaker or it could be an earlier split pre Z2331.

For the Akkadians and the Assyrians, I'm fairly certain they did in fact extend the Sumerians' earlier trade routes. That being said, I'm not certain this is tied to Semitic-speaking groups, as you said this could easily be xZ2331. Just updated the map (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkOvU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G&usp=sharing) of ancient P58 cases BTW.

Principe
03-26-2020, 03:28 PM
For the Akkadians and the Assyrians, I'm fairly certain they did in fact extend the Sumerians' earlier trade routes. That being said, I'm not certain this is tied to Semitic-speaking groups, as you said this could easily be xZ2331. Just updated the map (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkOvU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G&usp=sharing) of ancient P58 cases BTW.

For a P58 (xZ2331), I believe this branch might be a good candidate https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3684/, there isn’t an East Asian sample on Yfull but i’m sure its possible seeing there’s a ZS3684* in India. When the raw data is released I’ll check it out.

RCO
03-26-2020, 03:32 PM
We have a pretty good phylogenetic frontier between Iranian J1 branches (Z2215+ L136-) and Southern Levantine/Arabian/Semitic branches (P58+). Iranian branches are Northern Middle Eastern from the Caspian Sea, Central Asia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iraq, Persian Gulf in general terms and the "Iranian" branches are older, bushy, basal and far more diverse than the "Semitic" branch.

Agamemnon
03-26-2020, 03:35 PM
For a P58 (xZ2331), I believe this branch might be a good candidate https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3684/, there isn’t an East Asian sample on Yfull but i’m sure its possible seeing there’s a ZS3684* in India. When the raw data is released I’ll check it out.

That's actually one of the branches that I had in mind, though it could also plausibly be tied to Semitic dispersals considering its TMRCA and distribution, it might even be a good candidate for an association with East Semitic (though I think there are better contenders under Z2331).

Kelmendasi
03-26-2020, 04:07 PM
Just updated the map (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkOvU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G&usp=sharing) of ancient P58 cases BTW.
Nice! I have also seen that P58+ aDNA samples have been found in Kazakhstan and India. Sample MJ-52 from a paper on the Scythians (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960982219307122) is most likely J-P58. The sample belonged to the Tasmola culture of Kazakhstan. There is also the J-Z2331 (L862) sample from Medieval India (Roopkund) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j_gbbh1psWPgoR8fol-6phvBkDCUKtKeTOJAq4RH6_c/htmlview.

parasar
03-26-2020, 04:16 PM
For a P58 (xZ2331), I believe this branch might be a good candidate https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3684/, there isnít an East Asian sample on Yfull but iím sure its possible seeing thereís a ZS3684* in India. When the raw data is released Iíll check it out.

That I believe is Paul Gill, a Jat, who used to post in Anthrogenica.
YF04986 IND [IN-PB]
Looks to be an old IE line.

Principe
03-26-2020, 04:40 PM
That I believe is Paul Gill, a Jat, who used to post in Anthrogenica.
YF04986 IND [IN-PB]
Looks to be an old IE line.

I personally don't believe it is, I think its more likely it was somewhere in Iran/Central Asia and picked up by IE's if this is the case. This seems to have happened with quite a few branches like J2a-FGC9962.

Agamemnon
03-26-2020, 05:23 PM
Nice! I have also seen that P58+ aDNA samples have been found in Kazakhstan and India. Sample MJ-52 from a paper on the Scythians (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960982219307122) is most likely J-P58. The sample belonged to the Tasmola culture of Kazakhstan. There is also the J-Z2331 (L862) sample from Medieval India (Roopkund) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j_gbbh1psWPgoR8fol-6phvBkDCUKtKeTOJAq4RH6_c/htmlview.

Thanks, I was actually looking for the first sample some time ago, nice to see all the details on this spreadsheet. Map updated (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkOvU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G&usp=sharing).

Nebro
03-26-2020, 06:32 PM
Pre-Iranic influence most likely the cause of this.

Jatt1
03-27-2020, 01:37 AM
For a P58 (xZ2331), I believe this branch might be a good candidate https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3684/, there isnít an East Asian sample on Yfull but iím sure its possible seeing thereís a ZS3684* in India. When the raw data is released Iíll check it out.

That is my brother's kit.

Principe
03-27-2020, 01:51 AM
That is my brother's kit.

That’s cool :) hopefully this branch is the one found!

Jatt1
03-27-2020, 02:00 AM
That’s cool :) hopefully this branch is the one found!

Hopefully, for now only a kit from Norway is the closest one.

Ilgar
03-27-2020, 06:24 AM
This new ancient East Asian sample should be P58 positive as well.

late Xiongnu_han:
BRU001 M D5b1b2 J1a2b (J-P58)

konian lusitanum
03-27-2020, 08:21 AM
another weat farmer cultivator that started feeding the world that is my people the farmers

Jatt1
03-27-2020, 07:58 PM
That’s cool :) hopefully this branch is the one found!

Within this month I had seen a ZS3684* from Russia, it showed as a Chechenian Kit, I had look at it a few times and then all of a sudden it disappeared, I think either the guy didn't pay for it or it was an error.

Jatt1
04-02-2020, 09:13 AM
Delete

Polant
04-02-2021, 12:00 PM
Within this month I had seen a ZS3684* from Russia, it showed as a Chechenian Kit, I had look at it a few times and then all of a sudden it disappeared, I think either the guy didn't pay for it or it was an error.

There is one new Greek YF80786. Most probably it's a guy from Pontic and Anatolian Greeks DNA project of FTDNA. He is the only one J1-P58>ZS3668 (FT96715) in that project and I know how difficult for Pontic Greek to choose Turkish flag, so they often choose Greek. Or maybe he lives in Greece now.

Jatt1
04-02-2021, 01:08 PM
There is one new Greek YF80786. Most probably it's a guy from Pontic and Anatolian Greeks DNA project of FTDNA. He is the only one J1-P58>ZS3668 (FT96715) in that project and I know how difficult for Pontic Greek to choose Turkish flag, so they often choose Greek. Or maybe he lives in Greece now.

Yes, he is from Trabzon, Turkey and listed as a Greek on YFULL, https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3698/