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View Full Version : R1b-L151 in Afanasievo: Good Y-DNA Call or Not?



rms2
03-26-2020, 04:17 PM
Regarding the new preprint, The Genomic Formation of Human Populations in East Asia (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.004606v1?fbclid=IwAR2AInNtwIX9Ttk3IW2bm yyxYYuJyw4FgYeZWFi0jE3MtnC0ZswGIbn0Yls):

In online Table 1, sample I6222 is listed as R1b1a1a2a1a (R1b-L151). That sample is from the Afanasievo culture in Mongolia and dated 3316-2918 calBCE. The y-dna call appears in column S, which has the heading, "Y chromosome haplogroup (called only for males with 1240K data and only if >50000 autosomal SNPs hit)". That sounds good to me, but I am no geneticist.

The hiccup appears in Column AD, under the heading "Qualitative Assessment". The entry for I6222 says "QUESTIONABLE", but the parenthetical explanation is "(mtmatchmax=0.861)", which refers to the "mtDNA match to consensus if >2x coverage" data in Column V.

So, if the "questionable" part is mtDNA coverage, does that invalidate the y-dna call?

The autosomal coverage is relatively low. According to Column P, "Average coverage on autosomal targets", it is 0.136. Okay, but evidently the y-dna call still meets the stated threshold, "males with 1240K data and only if >50000 autosomal SNPs hit".

So, given all that, is the y-dna call good?

I brought this up in the thread on this paper in the Ancient DNA subforum, but the topic was snowed under by all the excitement about many of the other samples, so I decided to bring my questions here, because they are specific to this one sample.

Seen in the context of all the rumored ancient R1b-L51 stuff coming (soon?) from the steppe, perhaps it's not unreasonable to see this result as a foretaste of that.

Silesian
03-26-2020, 04:43 PM
Looks like same sample was used in this paper.
A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia's Eastern Steppe


The succeeding EBA Chemurchek culture (2750-1900 BCE), a ruminant dairying society
200 (Wilkin et al., 2019) whose mortuary features include stone slabs and anthropomorphic stelae,
201 has also been purportedly linked to WSH migrations (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar, 2009).
202 Chemurchek graves are found throughout the Altai and in the Dzungar Basin in Xinjiang, China ....... Although minor genetic contributions from the Afanasievo-related groups cannot be excluded, Iranian-related ancestry is required for all fitting models, and this admixture is 217 estimated to have occurred 12±6 generations earlier


Is R1b-L151 found in France?

https://www.biorxiv.org/collection/genomics

Kovalev A.A. The Great Migration of the Chemurchek People from France to the Altai in the Early 3rd Millenium
https://www.academia.edu/4970951/Kovalev_A.A._The_Great_Migration_of_the_Chemurchek _People_from_France_to_the_Altai_in_the_Early_3rd_ Millenium_BCE_International_Journal_of_Eurasian_St udies._Vol._1_11_._2011._P._1-58oks like same sa

rms2
03-26-2020, 04:50 PM
I remember that old paper (2011). I think the idea of a French origin goes back to the old idea that R1b-M269 came from western Europe. It wasn't based on any real evidence.

Looks like any R1b-M269 in Chemurchek is due to close contact with Afanasievo rather than some strange migration from France.

There's plenty of R1b-L151 in France, but it's all P312 and U106, etc.

rms2
03-26-2020, 05:03 PM
Notice that in Column G, "Confidence of archaeological and chronological contextualization for the genetic data for this individual", the entry for I6222 is the following:



Confident - The genetic analysis was done on a different individuals[sic] from the sample used to produce the direct 14C date (published in Wilkins et al. Nature Ecology and Evolution 2020). However, the 14C date matches to the Afanasievo period, and this individual clusters genetically with previously reported individuals from the Afansievo[sic] culture from the Altai region of Russia, providing confidence in the cultural assignment.

rms2
03-26-2020, 05:48 PM
So, in my inexpert opinion, I think it's a good y-dna call.

Convince me I'm wrong.

parasar
03-26-2020, 06:03 PM
So, in my inexpert opinion, I think it's a good y-dna call.

Convince me I'm wrong.

Isn't 3316-2918 calBCE close to the date of formation of L151?

Was the status of the Darra-i-Kur sample's R1b-L151 confirmed?
Darra.I.Kur_d H2a R1b1a1a2a1a Darra_i_kur_MBA 2850-2460 calBCE Afghanistan

rms2
03-26-2020, 06:53 PM
Isn't 3316-2918 calBCE close to the date of formation of L151?

Yes, but ancient samples have the potential to correct current age estimates.



Was the status of the Darra-i-Kur sample's R1b-L151 confirmed?
Darra.I.Kur_d H2a R1b1a1a2a1a Darra_i_kur_MBA 2850-2460 calBCE Afghanistan

Don't know, but pretty obviously this one stands or falls on its own merits, like any ancient sample.

Saw your newest post here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19938-The-Genomic-Formation-of-Human-Populations-in-East-Asia-preprint&p=655106&viewfull=1#post655106).

Looks pretty good up through L52 (one step upstream of L151).

Alain
03-26-2020, 07:27 PM
That surprises me very much if R1b M73 was not expected, L51 is not mainly in Central Europe? Because L23 is "old steppe", so to speak, Yamnaya

rms2
03-26-2020, 07:30 PM
So is R1b1a1a2a1a now the longhand for R1b-L52 rather than R1b-L151?

Such switcheroos and updates are good reasons, it seems to me, to quit using the longhand and go with the shorthand, i.e., the major haplogroup plus the SNP furthest downstream.

rms2
03-26-2020, 07:32 PM
That surprises me very much if R1b M73 was not expected, L51 is not mainly in Central Europe? Because L23 is "old steppe", so to speak, Yamnaya

Apparently the bulk of R1b-L51 went west; because it's not a major lineage very far east nowadays.

But it was absent west of the steppe before the 3rd millennium BC and the arrival of steppe pastoralists.

parasar
03-26-2020, 07:51 PM
So is R1b1a1a2a1a now the longhand for R1b-L52 rather than R1b-L151?

Such switcheroos and updates are good reasons, it seems to me, to quit using the longhand and go with the shorthand, i.e., the major haplogroup plus the SNP furthest downstream.

I think ISOGG still considers L52 and L151 at the same level.
Agree with the needed switch to shorthand.

jdean
03-27-2020, 08:40 AM
Posted on Eurogenes

Reich Lab has published genotyped data: https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/datasets

and somebody has published the Y calls here (https://pastebin.com/mAcLwZaQ)

whole load of BT and CT results until we get to

P~ CTS3446 derived
P~ CTS655 derived
P~ M1264 derived
R F63 derived
R1 L1352 derived
R1b L1349 derived
R1b1a1 PF6459 derived
R1b1a1b F69 derived
R1b1a1b PF6497 derived
R1b1a1b1a1 L52 derived

only thing off kilter as one call for a SNP on the T branch so this appears to be very solid !!!!

From Eurogenes (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/03/the-origins-of-east-asians-wang-et-al.html?showComment=1585247854363#c683251347201978 6429)


Thus age ostensibly Afanasievo's R1b1a1a2a1a-L52 3316-2918 calBCE, that is the oldest sample L52! Long before everyone else. With all the rest this Afanasievan is no different from the rest of Afanasievans.

Silesian
03-27-2020, 09:56 AM
Posted on Eurogenes

Reich Lab has published genotyped data: https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/datasets

and somebody has published the Y calls here (https://pastebin.com/mAcLwZaQ)

whole load of BT and CT results until we get to

P~ CTS3446 derived
P~ CTS655 derived
P~ M1264 derived
R F63 derived
R1 L1352 derived
R1b L1349 derived
R1b1a1 PF6459 derived
R1b1a1b F69 derived
R1b1a1b PF6497 derived
R1b1a1b1a1 L52 derived

only thing off kilter as one call for a SNP on the T branch so this appears to be very solid !!!!

From Eurogenes (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/03/the-origins-of-east-asians-wang-et-al.html?showComment=1585247854363#c683251347201978 6429)

Eurogenes Blogger, and or accepted associates posting; including Archi -No comment.However I will say; some rumored April fools!

Perhaps the post you have quoted from might originate was from so who was banned.


Originally Posted by Archi
Thus age ostensibly Afanasievo's R1b1a1a2a1a-L52 3316-2918 calBCE, that is the oldest sample L52! Long before everyone else. With all the rest this Afanasievan is no different from the rest of Afanasievans.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11766-Poll-Bell-Beaker-Models/page58

Here is a classic from post #576, memory lane.


I don't know. Still a possibility.

The regrettable thing about the Dutch Model being right (if it is) is that it leaves room for the L51 haters to claim a western European origin.

We need it on the steppe to make our case.

jdean
03-27-2020, 10:48 AM
Eurogenes Blogger, and or accepted associates posting; including Archi -No comment.However I will say; some rumored April fools!

Perhaps the post you have quoted from might originate was from so who was banned.



https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11766-Poll-Bell-Beaker-Models/page58

Here is a classic from post #576, memory lane.

Archi was replying to Gioiello who is banned (not for his stange ideas, as he likes to claim, nor (oldly) his racism, but trying to expose posters true identities), Gioiello's original post has been deleted so it's hard to follow all that Archi says but I suspect that's where the April Fool reference comes from.

There's certainly no indication the Y calls were manufactured for amusement.

Hodo Scariti
03-27-2020, 11:05 AM
... probably I misunderstood something... but, aren't the L51 samples two (and not only one) in those new papers?

jdean
03-27-2020, 11:19 AM
... probably I misunderstood something... but, aren't the L51 samples two (and not only one) in those new papers?

I thought so too but after going back and forth between the two papers it's clear they are the same just reported slightly different.

rms2
03-27-2020, 12:57 PM
Archi was replying to Gioiello who is banned (not for his stange ideas, as he likes to claim, nor (oldly) his racism, but trying to expose posters true identities), Gioiello's original post has been deleted so it's hard to follow all that Archi says but I suspect that's where the April Fool reference comes from.

There's certainly no indication the Y calls were manufactured for amusement.

Right, and yesterday was 26 March, not 1 April.

rms2
03-27-2020, 02:10 PM
Archi was replying to Gioiello who is banned (not for his stange ideas, as he likes to claim, nor (oldly) his racism, but trying to expose posters true identities), Gioiello's original post has been deleted so it's hard to follow all that Archi says but I suspect that's where the April Fool reference comes from.

There's certainly no indication the Y calls were manufactured for amusement.

I mentioned this new R1b-L52 on the YFull Facebook group yesterday. After a few of the usual claims about Italy as the fount of all R1, that person claimed Reich and company are hiding the Italian evidence because they don't want people to know that the Jews are not descended from Abraham.

I'm not sure how he arrived at that conclusion beyond a sort of blind Antisemitism.

How he is not banned everywhere is baffling.

rms2
03-27-2020, 02:25 PM
I thought so too but after going back and forth between the two papers it's clear they are the same just reported slightly different.

I'm not doubting you, but are you sure?

The mtDNA haplogroups of the two samples differ. In one paper it is listed as R, with low coverage, and in the other it is listed as N1a1a1a1.

N1 is not downstream of R, is it?

jdean
03-27-2020, 02:35 PM
I mentioned this new R1b-L52 on the YFull Facebook group yesterday. After a few of the usual claims about Italy as the fount of all R1, that person claimed Reich and company are hiding the Italian evidence because they don't want people to know that the Jews are not descended from Abraham.

I'm not sure how he arrived at that conclusion beyond a sort of blind Antisemitism.

How he is not banned everywhere is baffling.

AFAIK The only forum he can post on now is the English version of Molgen which they appeared to resurrect purely for him and his idiot Irish friend, however I don't exactly spend much time looking for his pearls of wisdom : )

Facebook is a different kettle of fish but I spend as little time there as possible these days.

rms2
03-27-2020, 02:37 PM
AFAIK The only forum he can post on now is the English version of Molgen which they appeared to resurrect purely for him and his idiot Irish friend, however I don't exactly spend much time looking for his pearls of wisdom : )

Facebook is a different kettle of fish but I spend as little time there as possible these days.

Aren't the Russian Molgen guys pretty much identical to the YFull guys, or close?

YFull lets him go full-on Area 51.

jdean
03-27-2020, 02:47 PM
I'm not doubting you, but are you sure?

The mtDNA haplogroups of the two samples differ. In one paper it is listed as R, with low coverage, and in the other it is listed as N1a1a1a1.

N1 is not downstream of R, is it?

That was the one detail I was clinging on to but the 'Archaeological ID' for SHT001 & SHT002 (AT-26, AT-25) are used in the 'Skeletal code' for I6221 & I6222.

jdean
03-27-2020, 02:50 PM
Think so, does YFull have it's own forum too?

razyn
03-27-2020, 03:18 PM
My recollection is that Molgen was begun, and gradually became more multilingual, in 2011-12. Certainly before DNA-Forums shut down. And a couple of the partners in Molgen were among "the guys" who started YFull, and still run it. (Vladimir and Vadim, I believe.) But YFull is a newer, bigger, considerably more original outfit; not all of its partners or executives are guys, and a couple of them are recently married.

I'd like to throw another log onto this campfire, reviving old threads to see whose guesses (about what genetic events in the R1b-L151 story happened, when and where) were most compatible with the new Afanasievo data. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16234-Bell-Beaker-Archaeology-and-Ancient-DNA&p=609820&viewfull=1#post609820

rms2
03-27-2020, 04:12 PM
Think so, does YFull have it's own forum too?

Facebook, plus the YFull discussion groups. I never do the latter, not that there's anything wrong with them. They do have some people involved in the P312 and L21 groups whom I'd rather not be around, however. They used to be here, as well, but got banned.

jdean
03-27-2020, 04:15 PM
Facebook, plus the YFull discussion groups. I never do the latter, not that there's anything wrong with them. They do have some people involved in the P312 and L21 groups whom I'd rather not be around, however. They used to be here, as well, but got banned.

Oh well, really not drawn to facebook : )

rms2
03-27-2020, 04:17 PM
Oh well, really not drawn to facebook : )

It's a lousy platform for back-and-forth discussions anyway. Plus the YFull FB group is so full to the gills it's hard to keep track.

rms2
03-27-2020, 04:22 PM
Honestly, IMHO FTDNA is doing such a good job with its Haplotree lately that I can't see much reason to avail myself of YFull's services. It's hard enough to get my guys to do the Big Y-700 that asking them to cough up another $50 to YFull begins to resemble the straw that broke the camel's back.

jdean
03-27-2020, 05:17 PM
Honestly, IMHO FTDNA is doing such a good job with its Haplotree lately that I can't see much reason to avail myself of YFull's services. It's hard enough to get my guys to do the Big Y-700 that asking them to cough up another $50 to YFull begins to resemble the straw that broke the camel's back.

Two out of three of my relatively close surname match BigY results are in. I was fearful FTDNA's analysis wasn't going to be able to dissect us and I'd have to dig deep into the VCF files but FTDNA's output worked a treat : )

One thing they could do to improve it is to match surnames phonetically though.

rms2
03-27-2020, 05:28 PM
Two out of three of my relatively close surname match BigY results are in. I was fearful FTDNA's analysis wasn't going to be able to dissect us and I'd have to dig deep into the VCF files but FTDNA's output worked a treat : )

One thing they could do to improve it is to match surnames phonetically though.

We've got some really good stuff lately via FTDNA. Can't complain, although it still takes too long for Big Y-700 results.

jdean
03-27-2020, 06:26 PM
We've got some really good stuff lately via FTDNA. Can't complain, although it still takes too long for Big Y-700 results.

And it's always the one you were waiting for : )

rms2
03-27-2020, 06:41 PM
My recollection is that Molgen was begun, and gradually became more multilingual, in 2011-12. Certainly before DNA-Forums shut down. And a couple of the partners in Molgen were among "the guys" who started YFull, and still run it. (Vladimir and Vadim, I believe.) But YFull is a newer, bigger, considerably more original outfit; not all of its partners or executives are guys, and a couple of them are recently married.

I'd like to throw another log onto this campfire, reviving old threads to see whose guesses (about what genetic events in the R1b-L151 story happened, when and where) were most compatible with the new Afanasievo data. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16234-Bell-Beaker-Archaeology-and-Ancient-DNA&p=609820&viewfull=1#post609820

Using your post as a springboard to something interesting, since it looks like no one is disputing this y-dna call, Anthony, in his The Horse The Wheel and Language, derives Afanasievo from Repin two or three centuries before the emergence of Yamnaya, but not from the Belarus/Ukraine border region (see pages 307-311).

Personally, I'm thinking the Dutch Model for Beaker is essentially correct, and Corded Ware will turn out to be the source of Beaker and of most of the steppe dna and R1b-L51 in Europe west of the steppe.

Rumors are saying there's L51 in very early Corded Ware. Don't know if that's right, but that's the scuttlebutt.

razyn
03-27-2020, 09:22 PM
I don't think anybody so far has hinted that the Afanasievo L51 guy (or guys), having pretty clearly gone eastward from the Volga watershed (and not from someplace between Italy and Portugal), are personally the ancestors of the Bell Beakers (i.e. Mr. P312 and all of his close friends and relations). Only that the Khvalynsk guys were not some sort of fluke. And L51 went both east and west, from those parts, very broadly speaking. The westbound contingent seems to have met with much greater breeding success.

Alain
03-27-2020, 09:42 PM
For the Bell Beaker Group Lower Rhine/ Netherlands and GB the Y-DNA R1b-P312 and R1b-L51 are typically derived from SGC and Group Hungary / Poland also R1b Z2103 (Yamnaya)

rms2
03-27-2020, 10:19 PM
Probably Poland to Germany, then to the Netherlands and Britain. Where exactly Corded Ware first formed is a thing scholars have been debating for a long time. Someplace on the steppe, but before ancient dna, even that was denied.

Alain
03-27-2020, 10:31 PM
I guess in the forest steppe zone (today's Belarus north of the Yamnaya cultural horizon) and then in two directions via Poland to Germany to Switzerland and east to Faytnova-balanova and its later offshoot Sintashta. And partly regional differences, for example in the funeral rite like CWC in the Taubertal

alan
03-27-2020, 10:55 PM
If all the rumours are correct, L51 seems to have been present in a considerable number of cultures in east-central and eastern Europe c.3500-2600BC, apparently just popping up here and there rather than as a single coherent block dominating a single culture. It seems that it had an ability to spread through or be absorbed into several cultures. But I suppose there must be a single area where P312 first grew and divided into clades because otherwise its hard to explain why c. 2500BC they all seemed to have the steppe beaker culture.

alan
03-27-2020, 11:01 PM
I guess in the forest steppe zone (today's Belarus north of the Yamnaya cultural horizon) and then in two directions via Poland to Germany to Switzerland and east to Faytnova-balanova and its later offshoot Sintashta. And partly regional differences, for example in the funeral rite like CWC in the Taubertal

Problem is that Afansievo is not part of the CW-Fatyanovo-Abashevo-Sinatashta chain. So it appears that L51 may have been involved in at least small numbers in both the Fatyanovo type chain eastwards by a northern route and the more southerly Afanasievo route.

rms2
03-27-2020, 11:21 PM
Hard to imagine L51 becoming involved in Afanasievo but not Yamnaya.

jdean
03-27-2020, 11:32 PM
Hard to imagine L51 becoming involved in Afanasievo but not Yamnaya.

Also hard to imagine this fellow was L52**, there are going to be SNPs we'll never know about in his line and yet he's still very close to the predicted age of L52. Suspect Yfull may have to rethink their sums !!

Alain
03-28-2020, 12:18 PM
I have a question out of curiosity did CWC and BBs have bronze weapons

alan
03-28-2020, 02:32 PM
Hard to imagine L51 becoming involved in Afanasievo but not Yamnaya.

I suspect a little L51xL151 took the Danube route west. As its already been found in Bronze Age Italy and (I think) the Balkans and it seems very unlikely that it arrived there by beaker or indeed CW (which wasnt present in those areas), some sort of arrival as a smaller lineage in the several steppe groups that spilled into the Danube and Balkans seems likely. I suppose a case could be made for a similar origin for the L151xU106xP312 found at Csepel. There may have been small lineages like that on the Danubian route west from 3000BC, perhaps earlier. After all, the rivers of eastern Europe that allow a journey to be made north-west around the north side of the Carpathians and by the Baltic area also allow access to the Black Sea and Danube if some strays decided to go the opposite direction along the river.

I suppose it could be argued that the L51xL151 and L151xU106xP312 oddities found so far have in common that they appear to be penetrating/absorbed into various cultures in the lower to middle Danube/north Balkans area but not penetrating into the upper Danube (where groups coming from north of the Carpathians seem to have ruled the roost). They seem to have a different story from beaker. Its a reminder that, in terms of L51, beaker is pretty well specifically and exclusively a P312 thing so far. Further testing will reveal the U106 story of course but its surely going to be very northern.

Alain
03-28-2020, 03:29 PM
To put it better, someone can hear the question here. Copper is clear in both cultures whether it belongs to bronze weapons in the beginning CWC and Bell Beaker?

rms2
03-28-2020, 08:23 PM
To put it better, someone can hear the question here. Copper is clear in both cultures whether it belongs to bronze weapons in the beginning CWC and Bell Beaker?

There weren't a lot of bronze weapons - or much of bronze anything - in Corded Ware and Beaker.

Alain
03-28-2020, 08:32 PM
There weren't a lot of bronze weapons - or much of bronze anything - in Corded Ware and Beaker.

So mostly copper and chert but occasionally you had it in the early phase around 2700 BC? The first copper production can be seen in Palestine although I have already read in the Iranian plateau with Arsenic

rms2
03-28-2020, 08:34 PM
So mostly copper and chert but occasionally you had it in the early phase around 2700 BC? The first copper production can be seen in Palestine although I have already read in the Iranian plateau with Arsenic

I think there were small amounts of it but bronze was pretty rare in Corded Ware and Beaker.

Alain
03-28-2020, 08:52 PM
I think there were small amounts of it but bronze was pretty rare in Corded Ware and Beaker.

I think rather tools, I hardly think of weapons, unfortunately I can find nothing but the typical battle ax or bow and arrow and copper dagger but no bronze weapons from this time

TigerMW
03-28-2020, 09:50 PM
..
YFull lets him go full-on Area 51.
Yes, I receive his insults from time to time.

Silesian
03-28-2020, 09:57 PM
To put it better, someone can hear the question here. Copper is clear in both cultures whether it belongs to bronze weapons in the beginning CWC and Bell Beaker?

Silver is an interesting unique metal; found in Afansievo+Latin

Hittite--harkaiš, “white, bright”*h₂érǵ-ro-m?
Tocharian A: ārki
Tocharian B: ārkwi
Latin: arguō (“to make clear”)

Yamnaya-10443 is L23+-silver?
If Afansievo -16222 is L52+
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/
That will make 3 distinct clusters sharing L23+L51+Z2105+, 2 of them known for having silver.
1}Afansievo
2}Bell Beaker East
3}Latin

alan
03-28-2020, 10:37 PM
The L151* proto-Nagrev (immediate post-Vucedol) at Csepel is interesting in that the attraction to a trading station indicates that a link to trade goes wider and deeper than the P312-beaker phase and might be a trait of L151 as a whole. If so it could go back to the L151 common ancestor or even deeper. This apparent interest in trade routes could explain the pattern that stands out to me in the various rumours of L51/L151/P312 in non -beaker cultures c. 3000-2500BC. It seems to be a somewhat baffling spread of occasional people of that lineage in many different cultures.

Silesian
03-28-2020, 11:39 PM
Archi was replying to Gioiello who is banned......


Is that it?
Look on the bright side and some redeeming qualities, he has not been accused of human trafficking and or child exploitation[as far as I know]; while donating money to Harvard.

ArmandoR1b
03-28-2020, 11:50 PM
Also hard to imagine this fellow was L52**, there are going to be SNPs we'll never know about in his line and yet he's still very close to the predicted age of L52. Suspect Yfull may have to rethink their sums !!

This caught my interest. I don't know if anything has changed since your post but YFull currently doesn't have a formation date or TMRCA date for L52, here (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52/), in their Haplogroup YTree v8.03.00 (15 March 2020). YFull has L51 as formed 6100 ybp and TMRCA 5700 ybp which easily allows for L52 to be dated to 3316-2918 calBCE. I6222 seems to have lived around the time that L151, or one of it's phylogenetic equivalents, was formed since the last one of those equivalents was formed within about 200 years before the TMRCA date of 4800 ybp. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/ So if I6222 didn't have any deamination he might have showed positive for L151 or one of it's equivalents if they were, or are, all included in the 240K SNP testing. If not positive for L151, or equivalents, we would know if he was positive or negative for equivalents of L52.

I continually keep my fingers crossed that someday high quality specimens from 4500 BCE through 2800 BCE positive for various subclades of L23 will have petrous bone shotgun testing so there is more accurate dating of the SNPs.

I also hope that someday some of the equivalents of L23, some of the equivalents of L51, some of the equivalents of L52, and some of the equivalents of L151 get broken into separate branches so that what are currently equivalents might be discussed more.

jdean
03-29-2020, 12:18 AM
Is that it?
Look on the bright side and some redeeming qualities, he has not been accused of human trafficking and or child exploitation[as far as I know]; while donating money to Harvard.

David should have banned him ages before for all his anti semitic crap (the normal reason he gets thrown out of forums, not his theories as he claims), personally I thought David's ultimate excuse was a bit lame.

rms2
03-29-2020, 12:20 AM
This sample meets the threshold set by the paper's authors for a y-dna call:

. . . [M]ales with 1240K data and only if >50000 autosomal SNPs hit.

They called it; it's not coming from an amateur with an axe to grind.

rms2
03-29-2020, 12:22 AM
David should have banned him ages before for all his anti semitic crap (the normal reason he gets thrown out of forums, not his theories as he claims), personally I thought David's ultimate excuse was a bit lame.

He is amazingly rabid and consistent in his Antisemitism, and he never seems to learn how offensive and unreasoning it is.

jdean
03-29-2020, 12:25 AM
This caught my interest. I don't know if anything has changed since your post but YFull currently doesn't have a formation date or TMRCA date for L52, here (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52/), in their Haplogroup YTree v8.03.00 (15 March 2020). YFull has L51 as formed 6100 ybp and TMRCA 5700 ybp which easily allows for L52 to be dated to 3316-2918 calBCE. I6222 seems to have lived around the time that L151, or one of it's phylogenetic equivalents, was formed since the last one of those equivalents was formed within about 200 years before the TMRCA date of 4800 ybp. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/ So if I6222 didn't have any deamination he might have showed positive for L151 or one of it's equivalents if they were, or are, all included in the 240K SNP testing. If not positive for L151, or equivalents, we would know if he was positive or negative for equivalents of L52.

I continually keep my fingers crossed that someday high quality specimens from 4500 BCE through 2800 BCE positive for various subclades of L23 will have petrous bone shotgun testing so there is more accurate dating of the SNPs.

I also hope that someday some of the equivalents of L23, some of the equivalents of L51, some of the equivalents of L52, and some of the equivalents of L151 get broken into separate branches so that what are currently equivalents might be discussed more.

My thought process was going along the line,

We are pretty sure L52 didn't happen this far East

Chances of L52 migrating east the day after L52 turned up, nill

Chances of finding the first L52 to arrive in Mongolia, nill

Ergo, there was probably quite of bit of time between the inception of L52 and this fellow.

lgmayka
03-29-2020, 12:26 AM
Honestly, IMHO FTDNA is doing such a good job with its Haplotree lately that I can't see much reason to avail myself of YFull's services.
Perhaps FTDNA is now focusing on the R1b haplogroup? A while ago, someone showed up who shared some previously-private SNPs with me--i.e., we should form a subclade. But FTDNA hasn't gotten around to that, and the other person doesn't seem interested in submitting his data to YFull even if I pay for the analysis. (What I really want is a TMRCA, which FTDNA does not provide anyway.)

On the other hand, perhaps only a week or two has passed, and it just feels like months because of...the current situation.

rms2
03-29-2020, 12:35 AM
Perhaps FTDNA is now focusing on the R1b haplogroup? A while ago, someone showed up who shared some previously-private SNPs with me--i.e., we should form a subclade. But FTDNA hasn't gotten around to that, and the other person doesn't seem interested in submitting his data to YFull even if I pay for the analysis.

On the other hand, perhaps only a week or two has passed, and it just feels like months because of the current American lockdown.

Well, I did email them with questions and asked them to compare a couple of my guys. That probably helped. I called first and complained when the young woman told me to email. I told her I knew how the email thing would go: into the genetic black hole.

Generalissimo
03-29-2020, 12:46 AM
David should have banned him ages before for all his anti semitic crap (the normal reason he gets thrown out of forums, not his theories as he claims), personally I thought David's ultimate excuse was a bit lame.

There must be some misunderstanding here.

Obviously, Gioiello was banned from Eurogenes foremost for his racism.

Can you point me to the comment that led you to believe that he was banned for something else?

jdean
03-29-2020, 12:52 AM
Well, I did email them with questions and asked them to compare a couple of my guys. That probably helped. I called first and complained when the young woman told me to email. I told her I knew how the email thing would go: into the genetic black hole.

I think it's pot luck, they got round to my little branch quite quickly (but not before me of course : ) ), however it took ages to do another in our surname project which was also R-L21.

rms2
03-29-2020, 12:55 AM
I think it's pot luck, they got round to my little branch quite quickly (but not before me of course : ) ), however it took ages to do another in our surname project which was also R-L21.

Like I said, I whined and complained, and "the squeaky wheel gets the grease".

jdean
03-29-2020, 12:56 AM
There must be some misunderstanding here.

Obviously, Gioiello was banned from Eurogenes foremost for his racism.

Can you point me to the comment that led you to believe that he was banned for something else?

Lord it'd take me ages to trawl back through your blog so if you say otherwise I'm going to apologise right now, sorry if I'm wrong !!!!

rms2
03-29-2020, 12:59 AM
My only exposure to Gioiello these days is at YFull's Facebook maelstrom.

There he is allowed to go full, foaming Nürnberg Rally with impunity.

rms2
03-29-2020, 01:07 AM
There must be some misunderstanding here.

Obviously, Gioiello was banned from Eurogenes foremost for his racism.

Can you point me to the comment that led you to believe that he was banned for something else?

I really like your Eurogenes Blog for the ancient dna news and what you have to say about it, which is well worth reading.

But the Comments section is like a trip into the gray, rainy city in C. S. Lewis' The Great Divorce. Too many weirdos. Sorry.

Silesian
03-29-2020, 01:40 AM
David should have banned him ages before for all his anti semitic crap (the normal reason he gets thrown out of forums, not his theories as he claims), personally I thought David's ultimate excuse was a bit lame.

Well he slammed me and called me a moron. Some people prefer [like myself] when it's to my face, than go behind my back and back stab me. I was back stabbed at work by a true racist/narcissist [minority]who was a master at gas-lighting, gossiping,to anyone that would pay attention. That's just my preference.
David is not perfect either. However we all share[myself included] the same genes [99%]with distant Chimp[paternal]/Bonobo. Quite frightening if you see the youtube videos how they turn on their own, or cannibalize their own, or eat other primates. Really puts me in place. Anyway enough about off topic subject. I'm happy for all L51+ that we finally have a really old L52 on the Steppe, Mongolia of all places.

Alain
03-29-2020, 01:40 AM
Silver is an interesting unique metal; found in Afansievo+Latin

Hittite--harkaiš, “white, bright”*h₂érǵ-ro-m?
Tocharian A: ārki
Tocharian B: ārkwi
Latin: arguō (“to make clear”)

Yamnaya-10443 is L23+-silver?
If Afansievo -16222 is L52+
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/
That will make 3 distinct clusters sharing L23+L51+Z2105+, 2 of them known for having silver.
1}Afansievo
2}Bell Beaker East
3}Latin

How about silver and gold at CWC and BBs also happened but the first alloy of mankind is bronze

jdean
03-29-2020, 01:43 AM
Well he slammed me and called me a moron. Some people prefer [like myself] when it's to my face, than go behind my back and back stab me. I was back stabbed at work by a true racist/narcissist [minority]who was a master at gas-lighting, gossiping,to anyone that would pay attention. That's just my preference.
David is not perfect either. However we all share[myself included] the same genes [99%]with distant Chimp[paternal]/Bonobo. Quite frightening if you see the youtube videos how they turn on their own, or cannibalize their own, or eat other primates. Really puts me in place. Anyway enough about off topic subject. I'm happy for all L51+ that we finally have a really old L52 on the Steppe, Mongolia of all places.

Acording to rumours plenty more L52 derived aDNA from Eastern Europe are expected in the not too distant future.

Alain
03-29-2020, 07:59 AM
I think there were small amounts of it but bronze was pretty rare in Corded Ware and Beaker.

Is it true that the bronze was made 5000 years before Christ in the Iranian highlands from arsenic and other books say 3300 before Christ in Palestine. Know more there

Alain
03-29-2020, 12:06 PM
Well he slammed me and called me a moron. Some people prefer [like myself] when it's to my face, than go behind my back and back stab me. I was back stabbed at work by a true racist/narcissist [minority]who was a master at gas-lighting, gossiping,to anyone that would pay attention. That's just my preference.
David is not perfect either. However we all share[myself included] the same genes [99%]with distant Chimp[paternal]/Bonobo. Quite frightening if you see the youtube videos how they turn on their own, or cannibalize their own, or eat other primates. Really puts me in place. Anyway enough about off topic subject. I'm happy for all L51+ that we finally have a really old L52 on the Steppe, Mongolia of all places.

Sorry I'm interfering what kind of David, the archaeological David Reich?

Piquerobi
03-29-2020, 01:20 PM
If true the L151+ mutation would have taken place in the steppes. ;)

rms2
03-29-2020, 01:23 PM
If true the L151+ would have taken place in the steppes. ;)

I don't see any good reason to doubt it. The call meets the threshold set by the authors of the paper, and the only doubts expressed concern mtDNA.

Coldmountains
03-29-2020, 09:07 PM
It seems that the Chalcolithic sample from Bulgaria with R1b (MathiesonNature2018) is M269

Arza posted this on the comment section of Eurogenes


Smyadovo I2181 is M269. YFull dates M269 to "TMRCA 6400 ybp". I2181 is dated to 6453 years ago.

4085 I2181_published I2181 21 tooth (molar) 2018 MathiesonNature2018 Gaydarska, Bisserka 6453 4550-4455 calBCE (5680±30 BP, Beta-432803) Bulgaria_C_published Smyadovo Bulgaria 43.05777778 26.98361111 1240K 4 0.063 71542 M R .. HV15 .. .. .. .. .. .. .. half,half,half,half S2181.E1.L1,S2181.E1.L2,S2181.E1.L3,S2181.E1.L4 PASS (literature, mtcontam=0.968-0.985)

fastq + Yleaf =

Sample_name Hg Hg_marker Total_reads Valid_markers QC-score QC-1 QC-2 QC-3
ERR2216591 R1b1a1b R-PF6452*(xA561,A1243,L237,FGC15335,FGC5253,CTS7768, F1343,CTS11567,S259,L744,P66_3,Z16400,S1115,FGC564 2,L1308,ZS5732^^,BY23092,BY9405,ZZ38,A8058,CTS1078 ,GG480) 142630 809 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=4995747431737521736&isPopup=true#form

Coldmountains
03-29-2020, 09:14 PM
If this and the other rumours are true than R1b-M269 and R1a-Z93 would populate the same region and cultural horizons 6000 year ago (Sredny Stog,...). It more and more looks like the first PIE cultures were a mix of R1b-M269, R1a-Z645 and R1b-Z2103 clades.

Chad Rohlfsen
03-29-2020, 09:30 PM
If this and the other rumours are true than R1b-M269 and R1a-Z93 would populate the same region and cultural horizons 6000 year ago (Sredny Stog,...). It more and more looks like the first PIE cultures were a mix of R1b-M269, R1a-Z645 and R1b-Z2103 clades.

Essentially. There's other stuff that I can't mention, but that appears to be the trend. Fusion zone....

ArmandoR1b
03-29-2020, 09:46 PM
My thought process was going along the line,

We are pretty sure L52 didn't happen this far East

Chances of L52 migrating east the day after L52 turned up, nill

Chances of finding the first L52 to arrive in Mongolia, nill

Ergo, there was probably quite of bit of time between the inception of L52 and this fellow.

Even with those assumptions there are too many unknowns. It's unlikely that it takes 200 years to travel from the birthplace of L52 to western Mongolia. There is too large of a difference between 3316 calBCE and 2918 calBCE so we don't know in which century he was born. We don't know if L52 was formed closer to 5700 ybp (the implied formed date of L52) or closer to 4900 ybp. We also don't know how, when. or why the first L52 arrived in Afanasievo. We don't even know the birthplace of L52 even though it is unlikely it happened that far east. We also don't know how many descendants the first L52 person had between his ability to father children and the birth of I6222. I don't think we know if they were polygamous or not.

Here is a very possible scenario - L52 formed closer to 5700 ybb which wouldn't change the YFull dating. He began to father children at 20 years old as well as his children and grandchildren and so on. They all had a large number of male children that lived long enough to produce many children. Maybe an avg of 6 males each if all were polygamous. He would have had many sons by 5668 ybp, many grandsons by 5636 ybp, and many great-grandchildren by 5600 ybp and possibly a total of 216 male great-grandchildren. Even if they didn't multiply that quickly it only takes a few descendants of those L52 people born between 5680 ybp and 5600 ybp to decide to travel towards Mongolia to make it there before 5316 ybp. The first L52 to arrive in Mongolia could have arrived 5500 ybp or could have arrived 5400 ybp and still had enough descendants for us to find L52 without I6222 being the first.

Per the study I6222 and a cohort are "indistinguishable in ancestry from previously published ancient Afanasievo individuals from the Altai region of present-day Russia, who in turn are similar to previously reported Yamnaya culture individuals supporting findings that eastward Yamnaya migration had a major impact on people of the Afansievo culture".

jdean
03-29-2020, 10:22 PM
Even with those assumptions there are too many unknowns. It's unlikely that it takes 200 years to travel from the birthplace of L52 to western Mongolia. There is too large of a difference between 3316 calBCE and 2918 calBCE so we don't know in which century he was born. We don't know if L52 was formed closer to 5700 ybp (the implied formed date of L52) or closer to 4900 ybp. We also don't know how, when. or why the first L52 arrived in Afanasievo. We don't even know the birthplace of L52 even though it is unlikely it happened that far east. We also don't know how many descendants the first L52 person had between his ability to father children and the birth of I6222. I don't think we know if they were polygamous or not.

Here is a very possible scenario - L52 formed closer to 5700 ybb which wouldn't change the YFull dating. He began to father children at 20 years old as well as his children and grandchildren and so on. They all had a large number of male children that lived long enough to produce many children. Maybe an avg of 6 males each if all were polygamous. He would have had many sons by 5668 ybp, many grandsons by 5636 ybp, and many great-grandchildren by 5600 ybp and possibly a total of 436 male great-grandchildren. Even if they didn't multiply that quickly it only takes a few descendants of those L52 people born between 5680 ybp and 5600 ybp to decide to travel towards Mongolia to make it there before 5316 ybp. The first L52 to arrive in Mongolia could have arrived 5500 ybp or could have arrived 5400 ybp and still had enough descendants for us to find L52 without I6222 being the first.

Per the study I6222 and a cohort are "indistinguishable in ancestry from previously published ancient Afanasievo individuals from the Altai region of present-day Russia, who in turn are similar to previously reported Yamnaya culture individuals supporting findings that eastward Yamnaya migration had a major impact on people of the Afansievo culture".

Possible but not terribly likely IMO, however it's also not something to have an argument over, hopefully we'll have more data in the not to distant future to make a more informed guess.

Also at the mo we don't have access (AFAIK) to the RAW data so we don't know if he potentially has all of the SNPs for the L52 level but I think we can guess he's also positive for P311 judging by the report from the other study?

ArmandoR1b
03-30-2020, 02:23 AM
Possible but not terribly likely IMO, however it's also not something to have an argument over, hopefully we'll have more data in the not to distant future to make a more informed guess.

Also at the mo we don't have access (AFAIK) to the RAW data so we don't know if he potentially has all of the SNPs for the L52 level but I think we can guess he's also positive for P311 judging by the report from the other study?

Not really arguing. Just making points of what is possible. I'd like to know which part you think is unlikely. I had a typo with the number of great-grandchildren. It should have been 216 with an avg of 6 males each generation. The true number of descendants isn't important. What's important is that within just 100 years a male can create a large number of descendants. Even if it was only 60 descendants in 100 years it is still a lot. The exact date of the formation of L52 isn't important either. It could have been 5500 ybp. It still gives L52 enough time to reach western Mongolia before 5316 ybp or before 4918 ybp. We don't even know which date within that large time frame that I6222 was really born.

I figure if P310 was in the raw data that it would have shown in the data that you referred to in post #12. As R.Rocca stated the sample quality is somewhat low (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19938-The-Genomic-Formation-of-Human-Populations-in-East-Asia-preprint&p=654897&viewfull=1#post654897). The average coverage of the autosomal DNA is 0.136 and SNP hits on autosomal data is 146406 which both mean the Y-DNA coverage is also going to be low. Normally the autosomal coverage is a lot higher when we get high resolution results of Y-DNA SNPs.

I doubt, after all, that he would be positive for all five of the other SNPs that are phylogenetically equivalent to L52 even if the DNA was high quality and didn't have any damage and deamination. It was only within the past few years that we learned that L52 is on a different level than L151. That tells us that there is a lot to learn about which phylogenetically equivalents really should be separate subclades. Even if the DNA was high quality and didn't have any damage and deamination and I6222 showed to be positive for all 5 of the equivalents to L52 which would put the true birth year of I6222 prior to about 5000 ybp if YFull is generally correct. However even that early date still doesn't contradict the C14 dating since I6222 could have been born closer to 2918 calBCE.

Hodo Scariti
03-30-2020, 11:48 AM
It seems that the Chalcolithic sample from Bulgaria with R1b (MathiesonNature2018) is M269

Arza posted this on the comment section of Eurogenes

So, there were two R-M269 individuals in Smyadovo, I2181 and I2430?

Silesian
03-30-2020, 12:25 PM
How about silver and gold at CWC and BBs also happened but the first alloy of mankind is bronze

Yes. Two types of bronze are arsenic/copper and tin/copper.
Now, here is what you have to keep in mind. Afansievo is most likely R1b-Z2109 [the same as [Yamnaya, Poltavka- Catacomb]and R1b- L52+P311[Central Western Europe]+J1a-Z2215 , Q-M25, C-M217, dated 3300+/-. There is a very good chance that Okunevo, 2850-1900 BC and 3 samples from Chemurchek 2500-2400 will also end up being R1b-Z2109+ If they are positive for Z2109+ then they would match Hungary https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/07/szigetszentmiklos-cemetery-santas-six.html -- horse bones.
R1b-Z2109 in Chemurchek burials- would place it in Dzungaria/Jungaria. Afansievo-Chemurchek sharing bronze techniques.

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker are slightly younger 3000+/-. than 3300+/-Afansievo L52+


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI&t=216s
3 min you can see common word for horse. 30:32 Afansievo in relation to Jungar basin.

It will be interesting to see if some of the R1a basal Z93 is also found with R1b-L52+
Glăvăneştii Vechi- I11955 (GLAV_14_Co)
I6561, Sredny Stog II, 4045-3974 calBCE

Silesian
03-31-2020, 02:33 PM
If this and the other rumours are true than R1b-M269 and R1a-Z93 would populate the same region and cultural horizons 6000 year ago (Sredny Stog,...). It more and more looks like the first PIE cultures were a mix of R1b-M269, R1a-Z645 and R1b-Z2103 clades.

Notice the stats so far:not suggesting any group is harboring a grudge. As they can change at any time with new samples,
There are more samples of:
1}R1b-Z2103>9 amongst R1b-L52+,Q,J,C Afanasievo speakers>than R1a
2}R1b-Z2103>9 amongst R1b-L52+ Estearn Europe Bell Beakers >than R1a Z280+and or Z93+
3}R1b-Z2103>9 amongst R1a Sintashta burials than R1b- L52+
4}R1b-Z2103>9 amongst L51+ Latin tribes than any R1a Z280+ and or Z93+
I call these shah mat stats--R1b>Z2103 [Hajji Firuz & company]

Alain
03-31-2020, 05:32 PM
Notice the stats so far:not suggesting any group is harboring a grudge. As they can change at any time with new samples,
There are more samples of:
1}R1b-Z2103>9 amongst R1b-L52+,Q,J,C Afanasievo speakers>than R1a
2}R1b-Z2103>9 amongst R1b-L52+ Estearn Europe Bell Beakers >than R1a Z280+and or Z93+
3}R1b-Z2103>9 amongst R1a Sintashta burials than R1b- L52+
4}R1b-Z2103>9 amongst L51+ Latin tribes than any R1a Z280+ and or Z93+
I call these shah mat stats--R1b>Z2103 [Hajji Firuz & company]

Do you have the paper with Z280 Bell Beaker?

rms2
04-01-2020, 01:36 AM
Thus far there has been no R1a in Bell Beaker.

Alain
04-01-2020, 08:45 AM
Thus far there has been no R1a in Bell Beaker.

OK, why does he write it says R1a Z280 and Z93

rms2
04-01-2020, 12:37 PM
OK, why does he write it says R1a Z280 and Z93

I don't know.

I'm not saying we'll never find R1a in Beaker, just that we haven't thus far.

Alain
04-01-2020, 04:47 PM
I don't know.

I'm not saying we'll never find R1a in Beaker, just that we haven't thus far.

No, all right, I thought it was a new piece of paper that he posted there

rms2
04-02-2020, 01:58 PM
I think we're eventually going to see that Beaker simply developed from Corded Ware, perhaps in a single, P312-heavy clan that managed to be successful and expand rapidly during the 3rd millennium BC.

37041

Silesian
04-02-2020, 02:38 PM
No, all right, I thought it was a new piece of paper that he posted there

R1a in Bell Beaker is very rare, I wonder if there was any animosity between these groups .
On another note, it would be interesting to see potential Toch A regions tested like Jiaohe or Yarkhoto 10 km west of the city of Turpan in Xinjiang , or Turfan region itself, seeing if there are any similarities with Xiaohe pottery, metallurgy, horses . Just saying


According to J. P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair, the earliest accounts of the Jushi report them to have "lived in tents, followed the grasses and waters, and had considerable knowledge of agriculture. They owned cattle, horses, camels, sheep and goats. They were proficient with bows and arrows".[2]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28034925/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/worlds-oldest-marijuana-stash-totally-busted/#.XoX1UIhKjIX

Alain
04-02-2020, 04:11 PM
I think we're eventually going to see that Beaker simply developed from Corded Ware, perhaps in a single, P312-heavy clan that managed to be successful and expand rapidly during the 3rd millennium BC.

37041

We have in the 2018 Olade paper that BBs Netherlands / Niederrhein and GB are derived from the SGC and the other group of maritime origin from Iberia and the third group a mix with the Yamnaya

Alain
04-02-2020, 04:33 PM
The AOC beaker is a mix from Corded ware and AOO beaker?

rms2
04-02-2020, 07:48 PM
R1a in Bell Beaker is very rare . . .

Extremely rare. In fact, there has never been an R1a Beaker found yet.

rms2
04-02-2020, 07:51 PM
The AOC beaker is a mix from Corded ware and AOO beaker?

I believe AOC and AOO are nearly synonymous, AOC being "All Over Corded" and AOO being "All Over Ornamented". Obviously AOC would only have cord ornamentation, while AOO could have both cord and other ornamentation.

They were used by both Corded Ware and Beaker but are believed to have begun in Corded Ware.

TigerMW
04-07-2020, 01:12 PM
I sent a very brief note to Dr. Kristiansen in early January. I just received a response.
He said they are working very hard on understanding the waves of R1a and R1b.
Of course, he did not release a specific conclusion, but I interpreted his responses as indicating P312 and U106 might have a relationship with Corded Ware.

Silesian
04-09-2020, 01:33 PM
Looks like Afanasievo's speaking R1b-151+ I6222 sample; might have some connection/family in Switzerland.
Aesch25_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a R-L151*

TigerMW
04-09-2020, 10:01 PM
Looks like Afanasievo's speaking R1b-151+ I6222 sample; might have some connection/family in Switzerland.
Aesch25_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a R-L151*

What's age of the the Swiss R1b-L151*?

Something we need to keep in mind is that L151* does NOT mean pre-U106 or pre-P312. These could be somewhat younger but of dead-end lineages. Nevertheless, the further back in time we find L151, the locations are informative.

alan
04-09-2020, 10:15 PM
What is unexpected if the rumour mill is correct is that L51/L151/P312 lines in pre-steppe bell beaker times appear to have popped up in several different cultures rather than concentrated in one. Thats a very different pattern to post-2500BC when P312 is strongly linked to a single culture for several centuries. That is probably telling us something about the pre-beaker social structure of P312, L151 etc but I am not sure what. A role that makes it able to move about widely into various cultural zones perhaps?

TigerMW
04-09-2020, 10:16 PM
Boy, I hope something pops soon. So many really nice rumors, so little pay dirt.
..
Me too, I don't want to say it but my guess is Kristiansen didn't reply until he knew something. However, we all know about the wheels of academic processes. They churn slowly.

MitchellSince1893
04-09-2020, 11:32 PM
What is unexpected if the rumour mill is correct is that L51/L151/P312 lines in pre-steppe bell beaker times appear to have popped up in several different cultures rather than concentrated in one. Thats a very different pattern to post-2500BC when P312 is strongly linked to a single culture for several centuries. That is probably telling us something about the pre-beaker social structure of P312, L151 etc but I am not sure what. A role that makes it able to move about widely into various cultural zones perhaps?
Ok let’s think about that. A skill/occupation/trade past down paternally that is found within multiple cultural environments.

Horsemanship? Metallurgy? Weaponry design? Priesthood? Animal husbandry? Mercenaries? Archery?

Silesian
04-10-2020, 12:52 AM
What's age of the the Swiss R1b-L151*?

Something we need to keep in mind is that L151* does NOT mean pre-U106 or pre-P312. These could be somewhat younger but of dead-end lineages. Nevertheless, the further back in time we find L151, the locations are informative.

I'm excited for all L151 members; I recently found out, by chance, my maternal grandfather[orphaned in Germany at a young age] belongs to R-Z11, U106.

Here is an excerpt of the abstract, hopefully it will be out soon.

https://boris.unibe.ch/133227/


A second migration into Central Europe occurred originating from the Pontic steppe in the 3rd millennium BCE and was linked to the spread of the Corded Ware Culture which ranged as far southwest as modern-day Western Switzerland. These genetic processes are well studied, for example for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region in Germany, however, little is known from the regions that connect Central and Southern Europe. In this study, we investigate genome-wide data from 97 individuals from the Swiss Plateau, Southern Germany and the Alsace Region in France that span the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age (4500 to 2000 BCE).

MitchellSince1893
04-10-2020, 07:47 PM
Ok let’s think about that. A skill/occupation/trade past down paternally that is found within multiple cultural environments.

Horsemanship? Metallurgy? Weaponry design? Priesthood? Animal husbandry? Mercenaries? Archery?

I know it's been discussed before, but maybe P312 was involved in the Amber trade originating along the Baltic coast.
Map includes routes from various time frames but may have some applicability. Definitely passes through CWC and BB territory.
https://sep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-10406508139399/amber-trade-routes-1.gif
https://www.amberartisans.com/amberroutes1.html

Pribislav
04-10-2020, 08:00 PM
Interestingly enough, Afanasievo sample I6222 clusters most closely with North Caucasus samples (Late Yamnaya/Catacomb-like) from Wang paper:

https://i.postimg.cc/5yFzPBrR/i6222.png (https://i.postimg.cc/5yFzPBrR/i6222.png)

Silesian
04-10-2020, 08:59 PM
Interestingly enough, Afanasievo sample I6222 clusters most closely with North Caucasus samples (Late Yamnaya/Catacomb-like) from Wang paper:

https://i.postimg.cc/5yFzPBrR/i6222.png (https://i.postimg.cc/5yFzPBrR/i6222.png)

Great job, very interesting.
GW1001.A0101, I1723, North Caucasus, 2881-2627 calBCE-R1b1a1a2a
A well known area for wagons[Caucasus region]and old R1b-V1636 kurgans. Hopefully we will get some more information on the type of vehicle he was skilled in constructing and repairing. Quite a feat for L151+ one of the oldest and most Eastern[Mongolia]R1b samples 3300+/- now.

Interesting how so many R1b's can be connected to one another[Samara-Mongolia-Caucasus-Chemurchek]even though they are separated by 1000 km and 1000+ years.

GW1001.-R1b+

R1b-Z2103+
Target: MNG_Chemurchek_EBA_2:I12957
Distance: 1.1664% / 0.01166367
40.8 RUS_Afanasievo
38.2 KAZ_Botai
21.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA

R1b-Z2103+
Target: MNG_Chemurchek_EBA_2:I12978
Distance: 1.2380% / 0.01237992
49.8 RUS_Afanasievo
41.0 KAZ_Botai
8.4 TKM_Gonur3_BA
0.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA

R1b-L151+
Target: MNG_Afanasievo_1:I6222
Distance: 1.0968% / 0.01096830
46.8 RUS_Afanasievo
36.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.2 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
3.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA

rms2
04-12-2020, 12:16 AM
Not too long ago, a thread like this would have had thousands of posts already.

Old timers, can you imagine this kind of discovery back in the dna forums days? It would have been an internet riot!

Here, now, it's apparently a yawner.

Silesian
04-12-2020, 01:54 AM
Not too long ago, a thread like this would have had thousands of posts already.

Old timers, can you imagine this kind of discovery back in the dna forums days? It would have been an internet riot!

Here, now, it's apparently a yawner.'

I wish JeanM could've been here.
Maybe one day we will actually get some Yamnaya-Hungary samples.

Since 3300BC+/- I6222-L151 burials cluster with Afansievo/Yamnaya burials L23+R1b-Z2103, there maybe an alternative to CWC burial origin.

Here is a interesting post.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16292-Eurogenes-Blog-Hungarian-Yamnaya-gt-Bell-Beakers&p=537473&viewfull=1#post537473

This is from the same article by Ivanova, page 113:

Quote Originally Posted by Svitlana Ivanova
The authors believe that the Dniester way linked the population of the late Eneolithic – Early Bronze Age of the North-Western Pontic Region not only with the Sokal ridge or Malopolska, where the pottery complex of the Zlota culture contained vessels comparable with the pottery of the Usatovo type [Włodarczak 2008: 520] . Probably, the Budzhak population migrated westwards to central Europe across Malopolska and northern slopes of the Carpathians. The evidence of such connections could be found in the presence of Yamnaya graves in the central European area (Fig . 15), as well as in the similarity of individual shapes of pottery and ornamental motifs (Fig. 11, 12, 18-20).
The Budzhak subgroup of Yamnaya had burial rites and an emphasis on archery a lot like Kurgan Bell Beaker. Remember, too, that while no R1a has thus far been found in Beaker, and, as I recall, only one very iffy R1b in Corded Ware, R1b-Z2103 has been found in Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Budzhak burial with body crouched on left side, Beaker style, in a stone-lined cist, with archery equipment.

Click image for larger version.

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Budzhak beakers.

Click image for larger version.

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Another thing it might be worth recalling is that R1b-L11xP312,U106 has been found in Proto-Nagyrev in Hungary. Proto-Nagyrev was the transition phase between Late Vucedol and full-on Nagyrev, so that's a lot like finding L11 in Late Vucedol. Gimbutas, if you remember, thought that Beaker was the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol.

At any rate, no one has tested Budzhak remains for ancient dna.

jdean
04-12-2020, 11:23 AM
Not too long ago, a thread like this would have had thousands of posts already.

Old timers, can you imagine this kind of discovery back in the dna forums days? It would have been an internet riot!

Here, now, it's apparently a yawner.

Meanwhile there are folk carrying on with their narrative as if nothing has happened despite making hay of the lack of a sample like this in the past : )))))

Silesian
04-12-2020, 12:48 PM
R1b flexability is really nice, to model BB and CWC common autosomal or cultural heritage[burial customs, potential language etc...].

Or use I6222 -L151+ flexibility in modeling[cultures with copper tang daggers, wagons and horse remains-3300 year range etc...].
Yamnaya and Afanasievo R1b are interchangeable; almost mirror images in genetic makeup, autosomal and non recombinant R1b M269+/L23+.
A sample from Yamnaya [Io443] 3300+/- L23+ = Afansievo [I6222]3300+/-L151+=Yamnaya 3300+/-Z2103+.
When constructing autosomal ancestry models, a little tweaking Afansievo 3300BC+/- sample 16222-L151+ in place of other 3300 Yamnaya samples.

It would be interesting to use 16222-L151+ as a proxy, to autosomally model different R1b samples from
-Chemurchek-R1b-Z2103+[near Jungar basin]
-Poltavka R1b-Z2109+
-Catacombe R1b-Z2103+
-Sintashta-R1b-Z2103+
- Hajji Firuzz Teppe[Iran]R1b-Z2103+
-Armenian R1b-Z2106+
-Eastern Bell Beakers R1b-Z2109+Cspel Island Hungary[horse bones]
-Vucedol R1b-Z2103+
-Sarmatian R1b-Z2109+
-Scythian R1b-L151+
-Latin samples R1b-L151+ and R1b-Z2103+

ArmandoR1b
04-12-2020, 05:46 PM
Looks like Afanasievo's speaking R1b-151+ I6222 sample; might have some connection/family in Switzerland.
Aesch25_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a R-L151*


What's age of the the Swiss R1b-L151*?

Something we need to keep in mind is that L151* does NOT mean pre-U106 or pre-P312. These could be somewhat younger but of dead-end lineages. Nevertheless, the further back in time we find L151, the locations are informative.

Apart from the issue of the dating there is also the issues people being confused about which SNPs were tested positive and of missing SNPs.

I6222 (https://pastebin.com/mAcLwZaQ) is positive for L52 but does not have a read for phylogenetic equivalents P310/S129/PF6546, YSC0001249/CTS10353/S1175, P311/S128/PF6545, PF6538, and CTS7650/PF6544/S1164/FGC44

I6222 (https://pastebin.com/mAcLwZaQ) also does not have a read for L11/S127/PF6539, YSC0000191/PF6543/S1159, PF5856, and L151/PF6542.

We have no idea which of any of those he is positive or negative for.

Arza did not post a full read of the SNPs that Aesch25_rmdup (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/04/business-almost-as-usual.html?showComment=1586419474092#c420140224222 8396085) has tested positive and negative for other than R-L151*(xM405,P312,FGC37115). We don't even know which of the phylogenetic equivalents to R-L151 that he tested positive for.

So there is a possibility of a difference of at least 8 SNPs in total between I6222 and Aesch25_rmdup even if there is a small difference in age. Which study and archaeological site is Aesch25 from anyway?

ArmandoR1b
04-12-2020, 05:58 PM
'

I wish JeanM could've been here.
Maybe one day we will actually get some Yamnaya-Hungary samples.

Since 3300BC+/- I6222-L151 burials cluster with Afansievo/Yamnaya burials L23+R1b-Z2103, there maybe an alternative to CWC burial origin.

Here is a interesting post.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16292-Eurogenes-Blog-Hungarian-Yamnaya-gt-Bell-Beakers&p=537473&viewfull=1#post537473

I6222 is derived for L52 and does not have a read for L151. See https://pastebin.com/mAcLwZaQ and https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52/

razyn
04-12-2020, 07:05 PM
I6222 is derived for L52 and does not have a read for L151.
For the most part, this thread departed from its title SNP (L151) by the second page of comments, and we are currently in the eleventh. Booting the actual mutation under discussion back up the tree (by one step) doesn't invalidate the importance of the facts on the ground. It's still the step that wasn't present in western Europe before these steppe guys came in from the east, bearing it. And it invalidates the wishful thinking about Villabruna, et al, to which those persons cling who still want P312, DF27 and their close kin to originate in Iberia. (I'm not accusing Armando of being such a person.)

Silesian
04-12-2020, 10:40 PM
I6222 is derived for L52 and does not have a read for L151. See https://pastebin.com/mAcLwZaQ and https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52/
Thanks for the peer review and fact checking.
Albania and France also have L52*
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52/

ArmandoR1b
04-13-2020, 02:00 AM
For the most part, this thread departed from its title SNP (L151) by the second page of comments, and we are currently in the eleventh. Booting the actual mutation under discussion back up the tree (by one step) doesn't invalidate the importance of the facts on the ground. It's still the step that wasn't present in western Europe before these steppe guys came in from the east, bearing it. And it invalidates the wishful thinking about Villabruna, et al, to which those persons cling who still want P312, DF27 and their close kin to originate in Iberia. (I'm not accusing Armando of being such a person.)

It depends on your settings as far as what page you are on. I am on the 3rd page :). But that is correct that it does not change the fact that both L52 and L151 were not in western Europe prior to the arrival of Steppe autosomal DNA. They appeared together meaning a group with both DNA signals were the people that took it into western Europe.

Regardless, the detail about which SNP was actually derived should be accurately stated when the specimen is mentioned.

ArmandoR1b
04-13-2020, 02:09 AM
Thanks for the peer review and fact checking.
Albania and France also have L52*
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52/

Yes, Albania and France have L52* until someone shows up with additional mutations that match some of the Albanian's hidden mutations and until someone shows up with additional mutations that match some of French sample's extra mutations. Then they will have subclades not previously known and L52* could cease to have samples at that point.

I6222 might not have been L52* if there had been more reads on it's DNA. The limited results of 240k SNP testing and degraded DNA of ancient specimens don't allow for the granularity that NextGen Y-Chr sequencing of living individuals allows for. I6222 might have even been negative for some, or even all, of the phylogenetic equivalents for L52 if there had not been any DNA damage and NextGen Y-Chr sequencing had been used.

TigerMW
04-14-2020, 08:46 PM
I6222 is derived for L52 and does not have a read for L151. See https://pastebin.com/mAcLwZaQ and https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52/

EDIT: I see this was covered in earlier posts. It looks like this is not L151. Can we change the title so as not confuse anyone.

So it is not of the haplogroup of L151?

Regarding ... The Genomic Formation of Human Populations in East Asia

In online Table 1, sample I6222 is listed as R1b1a1a2a1a (R1b-L151). That sample is from the Afanasievo culture in Mongolia and dated 3316-2918 calBCE.

There is another new study that apparently has the same individual.
"A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia’s Eastern Steppe", Jeong, et. al., 2020 (preprint)
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078v1

Table S6 has this:

SHT001.B0101 SHT001.B0101; SHT001.B0102 M N1a1a1a1 R1b1a2a1a (R-P311)

SHT Shatar Chuluu Bayankhongor Early Bronze Age Afanasievo

Is this the same guy? Perhaps L151 is a no call but P311 is positive. That's one step back according to FTDNA:

R-M269>L23>L51>P310 P310,P311,CTS7650,L52,YSC0000082
R-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151 L151,L11,YSC0000191

P310+ or L52+ but L151- L11- YSC0000191- would be a little more palatable. It's hard to press L151's TMRCA back before 3000BC. Afansievo was supposed to start up about 3300 BC.

razyn
04-14-2020, 10:00 PM
P310+ or L52+ but L151- L11- YSC0000191- would be a little more palatable. It's hard to press L151's TMRCA back before 3000BC. Afansievo was supposed to start up about 3300 BC.

Yes, and what you posted today (several hours earlier than this comment) on Facebook names the right SNP. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1624743047678967&set=gm.849526142208033&type=3&theater. (That may not be visible to non-members of FB, or of that group on FB.)

We don't have aDNA from an L151* corpse in an Afanasievo grave. BUT. What jdean, and rms2, and Piquerobi have been saying on this thread -- irrespective of the wrong SNP named in the original thread title -- was also correct. Most succinctly, here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19944-R1b-L151-in-Afanasievo-Good-Y-DNA-Call-or-Not&p=655804&viewfull=1#post655804[url].
If true the L151+ mutation would have taken place in the steppes.. Still a wide, expansive area. But we're gradually homing in on where.

MitchellSince1893
04-14-2020, 10:07 PM
Yes, and what you posted today (several hours earlier than this comment) on Facebook names the right SNP. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1624743047678967&set=gm.849526142208033&type=3&theater. (That may not be visible to non-members of FB, or of that group on FB.)

We don't have aDNA from an L151* corpse in an Afanasievo grave. BUT. What jdean, and rms2, and Piquerobi have been saying on this thread -- irrespective of the wrong SNP named in the original thread title -- was also correct. Most succinctly, here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19944-R1b-L151-in-Afanasievo-Good-Y-DNA-Call-or-Not/page12. . Still a wide, expansive area. But we're gradually homing in on where.

What's the name of the fb group? I click on the link and it goes to "Page not found" If allowed I might want to join.

jdean
04-14-2020, 11:04 PM
Yes, and what you posted today (several hours earlier than this comment) on Facebook names the right SNP. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1624743047678967&set=gm.849526142208033&type=3&theater. (That may not be visible to non-members of FB, or of that group on FB.)

We don't have aDNA from an L151* corpse in an Afanasievo grave. BUT. What jdean, and rms2, and Piquerobi have been saying on this thread -- irrespective of the wrong SNP named in the original thread title -- was also correct. Most succinctly, here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19944-R1b-L151-in-Afanasievo-Good-Y-DNA-Call-or-Not/page12. . Still a wide, expansive area. But we're gradually homing in on where.

Think this was the link (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19944-R1b-L151-in-Afanasievo-Good-Y-DNA-Call-or-Not&p=655804&viewfull=1#post655804) you ment to post ?

jdean
04-14-2020, 11:10 PM
What's the name of the fb group? I click on the link and it goes to "Page not found" If allowed I might want to join.

Not a fan of facebook, to much ego for my liking : )

razyn
04-15-2020, 01:18 AM
What's the name of the fb group? I click on the link and it goes to "Page not found" If allowed I might want to join.

The link works for me, but I'm a member of that FB group. Its title is R1b Y DNA project.

I did (as Piquerobi noticed) post an incorrect link for the quotation. And have now edited that, in my post #113 (but that doesn't correct what's in his quotation of me).

rms2
04-15-2020, 12:39 PM
EDIT: I see this was covered in earlier posts. It looks like this is not L151. Can we change the title so as not confuse anyone.

So it is not of the haplogroup of L151? . . .

The reference to L151 came from the paper's use of the longhand, as explained in this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19944-R1b-L151-in-Afanasievo-Good-Y-DNA-Call-or-Not&p=655113&viewfull=1#post655113) and subsequent posts.

Apparently that longhand originally referred to L151 but has come to signify L52.

Too late to edit the title without the powers of a mod or admin.

ADW_1981
04-15-2020, 04:14 PM
Is it anti semetic to say that modern jews are not primarily descended from ancient jews? I find Judaism to be a race obsessed cult when they don't marry people they have lived with for 1000 years because they are not part of the tribe.

Let's not ruin this thread please, but to counter your argument I could say the same thing about other cultures throughout Europe and Asia who simply stick to their own. Knowing that this problem exists everywhere, I'd still rather have Israel on my side, than another culture that simply wants to wipe out everything that I stand for.

Follow the logic?

Silesian
04-15-2020, 04:26 PM
Yes, Albania and France have L52* until someone shows up with additional mutations that match some of the Albanian's hidden mutations and until someone shows up with additional mutations that match some of French sample's extra mutations. Then they will have subclades not previously known and L52* could cease to have samples at that point.

I6222 might not have been L52* if there had been more reads on it's DNA. The limited results of 240k SNP testing and degraded DNA of ancient specimens don't allow for the granularity that NextGen Y-Chr sequencing of living individuals allows for. I6222 might have even been negative for some, or even all, of the phylogenetic equivalents for L52 if there had not been any DNA damage and NextGen Y-Chr sequencing had been used.

Probably not going to happen anytime soon, but it would be really interesting to see [from oldest dated to youngest] pca with Afanasievo I6222-L52 +Eastern Bell Beakers+Aesch25 R1b-L151* (xP312,U106)-L52

I4068 R1b-P312 U5a2a1 2300–1900 BCE Oostwoud-Tuithoorn (West Frisia, Netherlands)
I4069 R1b-P312 U5a1a1 2188–1887 calBCE Oostwoud-Tuithoorn (West Frisia, Netherlands)
I4073 R1b-P312 U5a2b3 2196–1903 calBCE Oostwoud-Tuithoorn (West Frisia, Netherlands)
I4074 R1b-P312 H 2278–1914 calBCE Oostwoud-Tuithoorn (West Frisia, Netherlands)
I5748 R1b-P312 X2b4 2579-2284 BC Oostwoud-Tuithoorn (West Frisia, Netherlands)
I5750 R1b-P312 K1b1a1+199 2300-1900 BC Oostwoud-Tuithoorn (West Frisia, Netherlands)

I2365 R1b-L2 V3 2465-2205 calBCE Budapest-Békásmegyer, Királyok útja (former Vöröshadsereg útja) (Hungary)
I2787 R1b-Z2103 T2b 2458–2202 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary)
I4178 R1b-M269 J1c1b1a 2500-2200 BCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary)
I7044 R1b-Z2109 U5b1d1b 2500-2200 BC Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor (Hungary)

nuadha
04-15-2020, 06:33 PM
Let's not ruin this thread please, but to counter your argument I could say the same thing about other cultures throughout Europe and Asia who simply stick to their own. Knowing that this problem exists everywhere, I'd still rather have Israel on my side, than another culture that simply wants to wipe out everything that I stand for.

Follow the logic?

sticking to your own is entirely different from living among a people, doing business with them, sharing political power, having power over them, and not mating with them. That is a racial commitment ive never seen matched by another group spanning 1k years. Questioning the premise on which they define themselves genetically is not bad simply because it offends them (anti semetic).

As far as your other comment, you dont need to pick any side other than your own. Ask the Spanish who invited the Moors into their country or who has supported the recent refugee crisis... "Ally" is very situational.

Agamemnon
04-15-2020, 08:02 PM
Is it anti semetic to say that modern jews are not primarily descended from ancient jews? I find Judaism to be a race obsessed cult when they don't marry people they have lived with for 1000 years because they are not part of the tribe.


sticking to your own is entirely different from living among a people, doing business with them, sharing political power, having power over them, and not mating with them. That is a racial commitment ive never seen matched by another group spanning 1k years. Questioning the premise on which they define themselves genetically is not bad simply because it offends them (anti semetic).

As far as your other comment, you dont need to pick any side other than your own. Ask the Spanish who invited the Moors into their country or who has supported the recent refugee crisis... "Ally" is very situational.

Stating that Jews are not primarily descended from ancient Jews is not, per se, antisemitism. As a matter of fact, most of the members involved in Jewish ancestry topics on this forum favour a model where (Western) Jews are derived from a population of Hellenic origin with a substantial Levantine component.

What matters is the intention behind the statement. So far you've managed to repeat several classic anti-Jewish tropes, among those we have that of the Jews as misanthropes ("a race obsessed cult" etc), the Jews as nefarious schemers and as a perpetual fifth column (your insinuations that Jews caused the Islamic conquest of Iberia and are currently engineering the migrant crisis in Europe). This betrays your true motives, which are to portray Jews as impostors, yet another classic trope of antisemitic discourse. Likewise with the myth of the all-powerful Jews ruining your life, also a favourite of antisemitic crybullies.

So while stating that present-day Jews are not primarily descended from their ancient namesake might not automatically be antisemitic, all of the stuff you've said so far gives that statement an unsubtle and unmistakable antisemitic vibe. I'm honestly surprised you haven't accused the Jews of creating/spreading COVID-19, killing Jesus and engaging in ritual murder of non-Jewish children for good measure.

As you can see, it is all very situational.

Power77
04-15-2020, 08:58 PM
I'm honestly surprised you haven't accused the Jews of creating/spreading COVID-19, killing Jesus and engaging in ritual murder of non-Jewish children for good measure.

I'm surprised he has not accused (((the Juice))) of killing the dinosaurs either tbh.

MitchellSince1893
04-15-2020, 09:01 PM
...I'm honestly surprised you haven't accused the Jews of creating/spreading COVID-19, killing Jesus and engaging in ritual murder of non-Jewish children for good measure.

...

I hear the Iranians are holding off on the elimination of Israel until after they release the corona virus vaccination. :P

alan
04-15-2020, 11:28 PM
Stating that Jews are not primarily descended from ancient Jews is not, per se, antisemitism. As a matter of fact, most of the members involved in Jewish ancestry topics on this forum favour a model where (Western) Jews are derived from a population of Hellenic origin with a substantial Levantine component.

What matters is the intention behind the statement. So far you've managed to repeat several classic anti-Jewish tropes, among those we have that of the Jews as misanthropes ("a race obsessed cult" etc), the Jews as nefarious schemers and as a perpetual fifth column (your insinuations that Jews caused the Islamic conquest of Iberia and are currently engineering the migrant crisis in Europe). This betrays your true motives, which are to portray Jews as impostors, yet another classic trope of antisemitic discourse. Likewise with the myth of the all-powerful Jews ruining your life, also a favourite of antisemitic crybullies.

So while stating that present-day Jews are not primarily descended from their ancient namesake might not automatically be antisemitic, all of the stuff you've said so far gives that statement an unsubtle and unmistakable antisemitic vibe. I'm honestly surprised you haven't accused the Jews of creating/spreading COVID-19, killing Jesus and engaging in ritual murder of non-Jewish children for good measure.

As you can see, it is all very situational.

'most of the members involved in Jewish ancestry topics on this forum favour a model where (Western) Jews are derived from a population of Hellenic origin with a substantial Levantine component'. I am not very well up on this subject although that sounds plausible to me. Can you point me to a good summary or paper laying out the case?

Regarding people taking offense at not being seen as totally primordially pure from some earliest root of a given nation or race, I find that attitude is pretty common in many nations. Some people have a very primordialist mindset when it comes to identity. In reality DNA is a bad hobby for anyone with that mindset because primordialist models always are shown to be wrong. I remember at one time people used to think entire nations arrived complete in their present genetic form as a single entity in an 'event'. That was never rational but it was in line with classical and medieval pseudo-historical ideas of nations.

rms2
04-16-2020, 12:09 AM
Is it anti semetic to say that modern jews are not primarily descended from ancient jews? I find Judaism to be a race obsessed cult when they don't marry people they have lived with for 1000 years because they are not part of the tribe.

Over on YFull's Facebook group Gioiello claimed that Reich and his colleagues are hiding the Italian evidence because they don't want people to know the Jews aren't descended from Abraham. I remarked that that claim seems rooted in blind Antisemitism, and the post above was your response.

So, do you think Reich and his colleagues are hiding the Italian evidence because they don't want people to know the Jews aren't descended from Abraham?

That seems to me different in its kind of weird, paranoid nature from genetic or historical arguments about the origins of modern Jewish people.

Reich and his gang are hiding something, and that something would prove Gioiello right, but for an underhanded Jewish desire to be seen as the children of Abraham.

Seems pretty obviously antisemitic to me, not to mention friggin' nutty.

Judaism is not race obsessed. As far as I can tell, it has always been open to converts, but it does insist on marrying within the faith. I don't see that as all that extraordinary.

Christians are not supposed to marry non-Christians either, although they do it all the time. And, of course, modern Jews pretty routinely marry non-Jews.

rms2
04-16-2020, 12:34 AM
Now that we've established that Italy is indeed the font of all y-haplogroup R1, a fact that will never be known, thanks to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, can we get back to that stray Italian traveling salesman who showed up in Mongolia so long ago?

Did the Afanasievans buy those timeshares or not?

ArmandoR1b
04-16-2020, 12:36 AM
The reference to L151 came from the paper's use of the longhand, as explained in this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19944-R1b-L151-in-Afanasievo-Good-Y-DNA-Call-or-Not&p=655113&viewfull=1#post655113) and subsequent posts.

Apparently that longhand originally referred to L151 but has come to signify L52.

Too late to edit the title without the powers of a mod or admin.

I am convinced that the paper used the 2016 longhand name for L52 as previous papers have done. In 2016 L151 and L52 were on the same level. See https://isogg.org/tree/2016/ISOGG_HapgrpR16.html

So, it is my belief, it isn't that that longhand has come to signify L52 but rather L151 and L52 were phylogenetic equivalents at one time and the paper does not recognize L52 as a new branch.

rms2
04-16-2020, 12:43 AM
I am convinced that the paper used the 2016 longhand name for L52 as previous papers have done. In 2016 L151 and L52 were on the same level. See https://isogg.org/tree/2016/ISOGG_HapgrpR16.html

So, it is my belief, it isn't that that longhand has come to signify L52 but rather L151 and L52 were phylogenetic equivalents at one time and the paper does not recognize L52 as a new branch.

You're probably right.

Isn't YFull's tree the only one that currently separates the two, or has FTDNA done that, as well?

ArmandoR1b
04-16-2020, 12:43 AM
Probably not going to happen anytime soon, but it would be really interesting to see [from oldest dated to youngest] pca with Afanasievo I6222-L52 +Eastern Bell Beakers+Aesch25 R1b-L151* (xP312,U106)-L52

I am having trouble understanding why you have L52 in red for Aesch25 R1b-L151* (xP312,U106)-L52. Since Aesch25 is derived for L151 it is presumed positive for L52 since L151 is downstream of L52 so there shouldn't be a reason to mention it. Am I misunderstanding something in your post or the reason behind the mentioning of L52?

ArmandoR1b
04-16-2020, 12:57 AM
You're probably right.

Isn't YFull's tree the only one that currently separates the two, or has FTDNA done that, as well?

FTDNA has separated them also. The difference is that they use P310 as the name of the branch. You have to choose View by Variants at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-P310 to see the phylogenetic equivalents.

The 2018 Haplogroup ISOGG haplogroup R tree (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n9MBaZWKBWUx2DN9aEN0CLCDmtnp64Hts-GrYGGPRRI/edit?pli=1#gid=1078904281) had P310 as it's own branch with L52 as a phylogenetic equivalent but the 2017 ISOGG R tree (https://isogg.org/tree/2017/ISOGG_HapgrpR17.html) had L52 and P310 as phylogenetic equivalents to L151.

side rant: I really wish FTDNA would not combine non-BigY results in their tree. It causes confusion by having the people that have done SNP packs or individual testing and don't have all of the phylogenetic equivalents tested. At least allow us an option to hide those that haven't had BigY testing.

ArmandoR1b
04-16-2020, 01:23 AM
EDIT: I see this was covered in earlier posts. It looks like this is not L151. Can we change the title so as not confuse anyone.

So it is not of the haplogroup of L151?


There is another new study that apparently has the same individual.
"A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia’s Eastern Steppe", Jeong, et. al., 2020 (preprint)
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078v1

Table S6 has this:

SHT001.B0101 SHT001.B0101; SHT001.B0102 M N1a1a1a1 R1b1a2a1a (R-P311)

SHT Shatar Chuluu Bayankhongor Early Bronze Age Afanasievo

Is this the same guy? Perhaps L151 is a no call but P311 is positive. That's one step back according to FTDNA:

R-M269>L23>L51>P310 P310,P311,CTS7650,L52,YSC0000082
R-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151 L151,L11,YSC0000191

P310+ or L52+ but L151- L11- YSC0000191- would be a little more palatable. It's hard to press L151's TMRCA back before 3000BC. Afansievo was supposed to start up about 3300 BC.

I hope that Jeong et al. also tested the specimen and have more reads than the Wang et al. study mentioned in the first post of the thread and the P311 derived is specific to the SNP and not really a reference to the branch it is found in and also that L151 has an ancestral read. There is a tighter 14C with 3112-2918 BCE for SHT001 based on S12_Radiocarbon dating in the Jeong et al. spreadsheet compared to 3316-2918 calBCE for I6222. Since P311 and L52 are upstream of L151 and we agree that the TMRCA of L151 should be 3000BC or younger then an ancestral read for L151 and even some L52 and P311 phylogenetic equivalents would not be surprising and due to the location they would even be expected.

nuadha
04-16-2020, 08:14 AM
I remember at one time people used to think entire nations arrived complete in their present genetic form as a single entity in an 'event'. That was never rational but it was in line with classical and medieval pseudo-historical ideas of nations.

Many people expect exactly what you described and when they find out that is not the case, they conclude that ethnicity does not trully exist or that nobody trully belongs to a group. They should realize that ethnicity evolves into and out of existence. It is real and rooted, but not eternal.

Silesian
04-16-2020, 10:26 AM
I am having trouble understanding why you have L52 in red for Aesch25 R1b-L151* (xP312,U106)-L52. Since Aesch25 is derived for L151 it is presumed positive for L52 since L151 is downstream of L52 so there shouldn't be a reason to mention it. Am I misunderstanding something in your post or the reason behind the mentioning of L52?

Not really fussy, since we need more testing for specific snps and dates. Hopefully archaeology will clear up any connection with Corded Ware or even Sintashta, [derived from different source]What is becoming apparent, is the relationship between his ancestral branch of L51+ found in Yamnaya/Afansievo and Bell Beaker Aesch25 . I'm in the camp that believes both Yamnaya/Afansievo and Swiss Aesch25 derive from the same source [genetically+archaeological] , and it is no coincidence that where these markers are found, there are Indo-European speaking groups[Tocharians and Latins for example] connected to copper/bronze metallurgy and or wagon and horse domestication, and the spread of Yersinia pestis.

alan
04-16-2020, 12:00 PM
L151 in Afansievo and early Czech CW shows it was able c. 3300-2800BC to travel both using a steppe route east and also go west around the north of the Carpathians into the non-steppe forest zone of Europe too. Those are significantly different environments and adaptions would be required to be able to do both. To date, it can be seen without doubt that western R1a adapted to the forest zone well soon after 3000BC and were able to push west as the main lineage in early CW. In contrast there is not much of it in true steppe environments in that era despite very 'steppe' genetics. L23 appears not to have been adapted to both but perhaps it was a little slower to adapt to the forest zone and that could explain its low numbers in CW. Geography could play a part in this too. Perhaps R1a was located closest to the steppe-forest zone interface and had longer to adapt to it in the centuries leading up to 3000-2900BC, while L51 (like Z2103) may have been a little deeper into the steppe zone. Slow or no adaption to non-steppe-like environments by (largely Z2103) Yamnaya culture appears to me to have been the limiting factor in the distribution of that culture (as opposed to similar genes) west of the steppes. Adaption to the forest zone may have been the key of the early R1a-CW expansion north-west. L151 seems to have had an intermediate story whereby it had a delayed then very successful adaptation to the forest zone.

MitchellSince1893
04-16-2020, 04:26 PM
Just a reminder of a comment made in paper GENOMIC INSIGHTS INTO 3RD MILLENNIUM B.C. BOHEMIA by Papac et al
quoted by generalissimo


...we identify a possible admixture cline between our Late Neolithic Bohemian individuals and a source with high Eastern hunter-gatherer related ancestry, currently best represented by Lithuanian Neolithic individuals of the Narva culture. We first detect the presence of ‘steppe ancestry’ in individuals precisely dated to 2,900 BC found in Corded Ware archaeological contexts. Early carriers of this ‘steppe ancestry’ can be found buried in close proximity to individuals without ‘steppe ancestry’ at the same burial site.
Assuming the previously mentioned Bohemian CWC P312 is in this 2900 BC group, this may again point us to the earlier Bay Coast (East Prussia/Lithuania) Corded Ware as from P312 came. Whether the paternal line originated in Bay Coast CWC (which could include U106, S1194, and other L151 clades)

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19869-A-mystery-about-P312-s-early-history&p=658336&viewfull=1#post658336

or came up the Dnieper & Pripyat Rivers (per rayzn & Alan in link below) from the Steppe environment or from further East in the Forest Steppe environment is tbd.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19869-A-mystery-about-P312-s-early-history&p=658545&viewfull=1#post658545


L151>U106 is well known for its present concentration in countries bordering the Baltic/North Sea (over 71% of non New World/non British Isles in the FTDNA database originated from countries bordering North Sea and Baltic);

For L151>S1194; 75% of non New World/non British Isles in the FTDNA database originated in Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Poland.

For L151>P312>DF19, 75% of non New World/non British Isles also originates in Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Poland (odd that it's exactly the same total percentage for the same countries as S1194)

For L151>P312>L238, Almost 97% of non New World/Non British Isles originates in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Poland, and Germany.

Obviously it would make sense if these haplogroups had a shared starting point somewhere near the Baltic.

Silesian
04-16-2020, 08:34 PM
Some who predict are correct, some not. Nice to reference a track record, for predictions.
How things change in 7+ years, the forum was a lot smaller. Some took interest in R1b-M269+My prediction still stands that R1b-M269-L52 Afanasievo was not from the Middle East.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?141-The-genetic-history-of-Europeans-(paper-online-August-2012)&p=1926&viewfull=1#post1926

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1588-An-observation-on-Tarim-and-Afanasievo&p=19566&viewfull=1#post19566


I2787 R1b-Z2103 T2b 2458–2202 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary)
I4178 R1b-M269 J1c1b1a 2500-2200 BCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary)
I7044 R1b-Z2109 U5b1d1b 2500-2200 BC Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor (Hungary)

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1577-Mike-Hammer-goes-for-post-Neolithic-entry-of-R-into-Europe&p=19484&viewfull=1#post19484

Hui, Mongolia-regions of Xinjiang-aka Jungar basin.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1517-Afghan-Hindu-Kush-Where-Eurasian-Sub-Continent-Gene-Flows-Converge&p=18151&viewfull=1#post18151

TigerMW
04-16-2020, 10:53 PM
Just a reminder of a comment made in paper GENOMIC INSIGHTS INTO 3RD MILLENNIUM B.C. BOHEMIA by Papac et al
quoted by generalissimo


Assuming the previously mentioned Bohemian CWC P312 is in this 2900 BC group, this may again point us to the earlier Bay Coast (East Prussia/Lithuania) Corded Ware as from P312 came. Whether the paternal line originated in Bay Coast CWC (which could include U106, S1194, and other L151 clades)

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19869-A-mystery-about-P312-s-early-history&p=658336&viewfull=1#post658336

or came up the Dnieper & Pripyat Rivers (per rayzn & Alan in link below) from the Steppe environment or from further East in the Forest Steppe environment is tbd.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19869-A-mystery-about-P312-s-early-history&p=658545&viewfull=1#post658545


L151>U106 is well known for its present concentration in countries bordering the Baltic/North Sea (over 71% of non New World/non British Isles in the FTDNA database originated from countries bordering North Sea and Baltic);

For L151>S1194; 75% of non New World/non British Isles in the FTDNA database originated in Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Poland.

For L151>P312>DF19, 75% of non New World/non British Isles also originates in Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Poland (odd that it's exactly the same total percentage for the same countries as S1194)

For L151>P312>L238, Almost 97% of non New World/Non British Isles originates in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Poland, and Germany.

Obviously it would make sense if these haplogroups had a shared starting point somewhere near the Baltic.

Thank you. Do you mind if I quote your percentages for the R1b project? I will cite you if you want and use the words approximate or about.

What is your take on DF99?

razyn
04-16-2020, 11:07 PM
Some who predict are correct, some not. Nice to reference a track record, for predictions.
I'll bite. In a Eupedia discussion with Bodin and a few others from Sept. 2 to Sept. 6, 2011, I suggested the Vistula basin as a plausible source of the Z196+ population that had suddenly arrived in Iberia -- apparently, with little or no G2a accompanying it. [Note that DF27 was discovered, and named, about two months later than these posts.] One has to scroll through a lot of other posts before arriving at September 2011 [dates are in the upper right corner] and the posts in which I refer to the Baltic shores, sewn boats, alternatives to the paths followed by close relatives U152, L21 and U106, etc. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26727.html

That is one of several urls I posted in a long string of archived threads, reconstructing some of the earlier "discoveries" about DF27 and its subclades that were known at the time -- generally the latter days of the DNA-Forums, and before Anthrogenica had cranked up. Some of our early deliberations also took place on a WorldFamilies R1b forum, while rms2 was an active admin there. This is the more comprehensive thread -- but its emphasis is on DF27, and as such it is largely irrelevant to the "L52 in Afanasievo" topic: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11380-Way-back-when-P312*-started-looking-like-Z196-until-DF27-was-discovered

MitchellSince1893
04-16-2020, 11:57 PM
Thank you. Do you mind if I quote your percentages for the R1b project? I will cite you if you want and use the words approximate or about.

What is your take on DF99?

Sure, feel free. You don't have to cite me as anybody can easily replicate the same exercise I did. Just go to the FTDNA haplotree https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-l51

and go to the various clades above, and click on the 3 dots to the right to open the country report, and copy and paste each page into a spreadsheet, remove the British, Irish, Oceanic, and Americas.

Per DF99, it's 2 levels below P312 on the FTDNA haplotree, with FGC84729 in between
P312>FGC84729 appears to be more Western/Southern shifted compared to the above haplogroups,
54% from Germany, Czechia, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine, and Netherlands
43% from France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Portugal, Luxembourg
The remaining from Russia and Turkey

Just looking at P312>FGC84729>DF99 it appears very similar to above
54% from Germany, Czechia, Sweden, Denmark, Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine, and Netherlands.
44% from France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Portugal, Luxembourg
2% Russia

As to why the western/southern shift, Maybe FG84729 and DF99 were more involved in the Beaker Urnfield, Hallstaat, La Tene cultures which tended to cover a larger area of Southern and Western Europe. DF99 reminds me of the U152 distribution, so they may have been members of same/similar cultures.

One thing I failed to mention in my previous post was L51>PF7589
It seems to be more Alps Centric with
Germany, Switzerland, Italy making up 2/3 of the non British Isles/New World/Oceanic FTDNA database.

Silesian
04-17-2020, 12:57 AM
......... This is the more comprehensive thread -- but its emphasis is on DF27, and as such it is largely irrelevant to the "L52 in Afanasievo" topic: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11380-Way-back-when-P312*-started-looking-like-Z196-until-DF27-was-discovered

Nice track record.
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to R1b-P312*.
However, L52* found in Albania and France[Aude] ancestral to R1b-P312* Eastern Europe-Baltic R1b ?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52*/

MitchellSince1893
04-17-2020, 06:22 PM
...

Per DF99, it's 2 levels below P312 on the FTDNA haplotree, with FGC84729 in between
P312>FGC84729 appears to be more Western/Southern shifted compared to the above haplogroups,
54% from Germany, Czechia, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine, and Netherlands
43% from France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Portugal, Luxembourg
The remaining from Russia and Turkey

Just looking at P312>FGC84729>DF99 it appears very similar to above
54% from Germany, Czechia, Sweden, Denmark, Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine, and Netherlands.
44% from France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Portugal, Luxembourg
2% Russia

As to why the western/southern shift, Maybe FGC84729 and DF99 were more involved in the Beaker Urnfield, Hallstaat, La Tene cultures which tended to cover a larger area of Southern and Western Europe. DF99 reminds me of the U152 distribution, so they may have been members of same/similar cultures.

.

Just did a rough comparison of FGC84729>DF99 to U152.

U152 is even more Western/Southern shifted than FGC84729>DF99
44% from the Northern European countries (excluding British Isles)/Baltic countries/Czechia/Slovakia/Hungary/Austria/Ukraine/Belarus
49% from Western European countries (excluding British Isles)
7% from Russia, Balkans, North Africa, Caucasus, Middle East etc

We know from ancient dna that U152 was in Beaker and Hallstaat, and by default was probably heavily involved in Urnfield and La Tene, so my guess is DF99 may have been as well.

GoldenHind
04-17-2020, 08:14 PM
Sure, feel free. You don't have to cite me as anybody can easily replicate the same exercise I did. Just go to the FTDNA haplotree https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-l51

and go to the various clades above, and click on the 3 dots to the right to open the country report, and copy and paste each page into a spreadsheet, remove the British, Irish, Oceanic, and Americas.

Per DF99, it's 2 levels below P312 on the FTDNA haplotree, with FGC84729 in between
P312>FGC84729 appears to be more Western/Southern shifted compared to the above haplogroups,
54% from Germany, Czechia, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine, and Netherlands
43% from France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Portugal, Luxembourg
The remaining from Russia and Turkey

Just looking at P312>FGC84729>DF99 it appears very similar to above
54% from Germany, Czechia, Sweden, Denmark, Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine, and Netherlands.
44% from France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Portugal, Luxembourg
2% Russia

As to why the western/southern shift, Maybe FG84729 and DF99 were more involved in the Beaker Urnfield, Hallstaat, La Tene cultures which tended to cover a larger area of Southern and Western Europe. DF99 reminds me of the U152 distribution, so they may have been members of same/similar cultures.



I suspect one reason for the difference you notice is that there is a robust presence of DF99 in Switzerland. I realize you have to draw the boundary somewhere, but I don't think there is any reason to connect southern Germans with northern Germans as opposed to with the Swiss. Of the other countries you lump in together with Switzerland, the only one with a significant DF99 presence is Italy, primarily in the far north of that country. While DF99 in Switzerland might be a remnant of Hallstaat/La Tene, my guess is that it is more likely it arrived there with the Alemanni during the Migration Age.

Regarding the Baltic, I noticed some time ago that there was strong presence of DF99 in that region. It is present (in mostly European nationals) in Sweden, Denmark, northern Germany and Poland. There is also a Ukrainian national who has a Lithuanian surname and a Finnish national with a Finnish surname whose markers and matches virtually guarantee he would be DF99+. The DF99 subclade FGC16979 appears to be closely connected with the Baltic area. For sometime I have speculated that DF99 may have expanded from somewhere in the north European plain near the Baltic, possibly in the area of Mecklenburg and Pomerania, and dispersed from that general area during the Migration Age. Obviously this remains speculative at this point.

MitchellSince1893
04-17-2020, 08:29 PM
I suspect one reason for the difference you notice is that there is a robust presence of DF99 in Switzerland. I realize you have to draw the boundary somewhere, but I don't think there is any reason to connect southern Germans with northern Germans as opposed to with the Swiss. Of the other countries you lump in together with Switzerland, the only one with a significant DF99 presence is Italy, primarily in the far north of that country. While DF99 in Switzerland might be a remnant of Hallstaat/La Tene, my guess is that it is more likely it arrived there with the Alemanni during the Migration Age.

Regarding the Baltic, I noticed some time ago that there was strong presence of DF99 in that region. It is present (in mostly European nationals) in Sweden, Denmark, northern Germany and Poland. There is also a Ukrainian national who has a Lithuanian surname and a Finnish national with a Finnish surname whose markers and matches virtually guarantee he would be DF99+. The DF99 subclade FGC16979 appears to be closely connected with the Baltic area. For sometime I have speculated that DF99 may have expanded from somewhere in the north European plain near the Baltic, possibly in the area of Mecklenburg and Pomerania, and dispersed from that general area during the Migration Age. Obviously this remains speculative at this point.

Yes Germany is problematic to this type of analysis as you have distinct histories in the North and South. My initial choice was to divide them by whether they had a border on the North Sea & Baltic Sea vs those that didn't. Which worked initially, but then you get into samples from Czech Rep, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary and where to place them.

Suffice it to say, compared to the haplogroups in my initial post, DF99 appears more dispersed. And there is definitely as Baltic Centric center of gravity for quite a few L151 haplogroups.

Silesian
04-17-2020, 09:03 PM
Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
......... This is the more comprehensive thread -- but its emphasis is on DF27, and as such it is largely irrelevant to the "L52 in Afanasievo" topic: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....was-discovered

Anyone have ideas about the pottery in use for Yamnaya UKR/Afanasievo types aged to around 3300+/- with nonrecombinant L52+sequence L23>L52+? Or do any of these Corded Ware like samples match pottery?
nonrecombinant L23+>L52+sequence-Aesch25- dated to 2.400 BCE ??+/- and R1a-MX265 ?


Target: Corded_Ware_POL_early:poz81
Distance: 1.6002% / 0.01600237
76.2 RUS_Afanasievo
13.4 Yamnaya_UKR
5.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
3.0 UKR_N
2.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora

GoldenHind
04-17-2020, 09:37 PM
And there is definitely as Baltic Centric center of gravity for quite a few L151 haplogroups.

After discovering a strong Baltic area component in DF99 a year or two ago, I did a little research on the presence of other P312 subclades in that area, and was surprised to find nearly all of them were well represented there. I meant to start a thread on the subject, but never got around to it. There was certainly a number of well established population movements from the northern European plain to the south and west, but I am not aware of any major ones in the opposite direction.

JoeyP37
04-17-2020, 10:14 PM
R1a-MX265 is my daddy. Dividing Germany north versus south makes more sense looking at I1, with the R1 clades east to west is usually more instructive, with more R1b in the west and R1a to the east, although there is still plenty of U106 in eastern Germany and of course my R1a from the northern Palatinate. Rhenish Palatinate, that is, not the Bavarian Upper Palatinate.

rms2
04-17-2020, 10:21 PM
Of course, now we know there was evidently plenty of R1b-M269, at least some of them R1b-P310, in Corded Ware in SE Poland not far from the modern Ukrainian border, and that, interestingly, given the topic of this thread, they had autosomal affinities to Afanasievo.

Corded Ware cultural complexity uncovered using genomic and isotopic analysis from southeastern Poland (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63138-w.pdf)

rms2
04-18-2020, 03:32 AM
Anyone have ideas about the pottery in use for Yamnaya UKR/Afanasievo types aged to around 3300+/- with nonrecombinant L52+sequence L23>L52+? Or do any of these Corded Ware like samples match pottery?
nonrecombinant L23+>L52+sequence-Aesch25- dated to 2.400 BCE ??+/- and R1a-MX265 ?


Target: Corded_Ware_POL_early:poz81
Distance: 1.6002% / 0.01600237
76.2 RUS_Afanasievo
13.4 Yamnaya_UKR
5.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
3.0 UKR_N
2.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora

There are some drawings of Afanasievo pottery here (https://indo-european.info/indo-europeans-uralians/V_9_Afanasevo-.htm). I can't vouch for or endorse the site, though: don't know enough about it or who is behind it.

Looks like bag-like pots for the most part: the kind you can stick point down into the fire to cook the contents. Those pedestalled bowls look a bit like something similar from Vucedol, Mako, Somogyvar and Beaker in the Carpathian Basin.

37196

TigerMW
04-18-2020, 07:07 PM
After discovering a strong Baltic area component in DF99 a year or two ago, I did a little research on the presence of other P312 subclades in that area, and was surprised to find nearly all of them were well represented there. I meant to start a thread on the subject, but never got around to it. There was certainly a number of well established population movements from the northern European plain to the south and west, but I am not aware of any major ones in the opposite direction.

We've forgotten about the Basque-Irish fisherman. LOL.

I don't really look at Y STR diversity any more but back about 2010-2013 I was noting that P312 diversity was higher in the north than in the south. If you add that to a northerly U106 presence it is kind of always been northerly looking.

I remember Dr. Hammer's charts several years about before he understood DF27. He had Z195 coming across the northern plains into Central and Western Europe.

joeflood
10-18-2020, 01:47 AM
This is an unrefereed paper, just drawn to my attention. I think he's made a simple administrative error with spreadsheets- he has J1a for the other Afanasievo sample and both are just about impossible. I've written to the author to confirm. We'll also check out the sample but its pretty certain to be Yamna R-Z2106 like all the others.

>>>

In online Table 1, sample I6222 is listed as R1b1a1a2a1a (R1b-L151). That sample is from the Afanasievo culture in Mongolia and dated 3316-2918 calBCE. The y-dna call appears in column S, which has the heading, "Y chromosome haplogroup (called only for males with 1240K data and only if >50000 autosomal SNPs hit)". That sounds good to me, but I am no geneticist.

The hiccup appears in Column AD, under the heading "Qualitative Assessment". The entry for I6222 says "QUESTIONABLE", but the parenthetical explanation is "(mtmatchmax=0.861)", which refers to the "mtDNA match to consensus if >2x coverage" data in Column V.

So, if the "questionable" part is mtDNA coverage, does that invalidate the y-dna call?

The autosomal coverage is relatively low. According to Column P, "Average coverage on autosomal targets", it is 0.136. Okay, but evidently the y-dna call still meets the stated threshold, "males with 1240K data and only if >50000 autosomal SNPs hit".

rms2
10-18-2020, 10:10 AM
You posted in a thread without bothering to read it. All that you just brought up has already been addressed in the first few posts.

You're also quoting me without bothering to make it plain that is what you are doing.

I've read your posts over the years and lately over on Facebook at Mike Walsh's R1b Project group. You regularly complain about ancient dna results because they explode your preferred narrative that R1b-M269 is absolutely native to western Europe.

In the past you wrote that U106 first arose in Cornwall. Now you claim Z251 arose in Cornwall. Apparently Cornwall played a larger role in the story of humanity than anyone has heretofore imagined. To quote you: "You must be kidding."

BTW, as I recall, there was some confusion with the longhand nomenclature. Apparently the sample in question is R1b-L52, not L151. The confusion was our own, not that of the authors of the paper, who should, however, have used the shorthand.

rms2
10-18-2020, 10:40 AM
When you get the chance, you might want to check out the Linderholm et al paper, Corded Ware cultural complexity uncovered using genomic and isotopic analysis from south-eastern Poland (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63138-w), which found R1b-L51 in Corded Ware in SE Poland with a possible autosomal connection to Afanasievo.



Overall, although non-significant the results suggested a trend where the four groups share more genetic drift with Russia_Afanasievo than with Yamnaya and Groups I, II and III share more genetic drift with Poland CW than with Russian_Afanasievo (Table S14 & Fig. S20). This pattern was also mirrored by the f2-statistics.





Groups I-IV are genetically closer to Russia_Afanasievo than to Yamnaya individuals (Z > |2.9|) and are also closer to Russia_Afanasievo than to each other (Z > |2.9|). Even when we compare two individuals from the same group, same chronology and same site with Russian Afanasievo with f4-statistics they share significant more genetic drift with Russian Afanasievo than with each other.

rms2
10-18-2020, 12:03 PM
There is a thread on the Linderholm et al paper here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20109-Corded-Ware-cultural-complexity-uncovered-using-genomic-and-isotopic-analysis-from-so&highlight=corded+ware+afanasievo).

RCO
10-18-2020, 01:07 PM
This is an unrefereed paper, just drawn to my attention. I think he's made a simple administrative error with spreadsheets- he has J1a for the other Afanasievo sample and both are just about impossible. I've written to the author to confirm.

The authors don't answer to our inquiries and sincerely we only need the hard data because we don't need their interpretation, in the case of Proto-Indo-European Y-DNA J1 that's the reality because J1 was a founder member of the Ancient Iranian Peoples who moved to the North and I don't know why they are taking too long to publish the data, if they are good scientists they will have other data and more results for next year, a lot of delay in this process.

rms2
10-18-2020, 01:13 PM
The authors don't answer to our inquiries and sincerely we only need the hard data because we don't need their interpretation, in the case of Proto-Indo-European Y-DNA J1 that's the reality because J1 was a founder member of the Ancient Iranian Peoples who moved to the North and I don't know why they are taking too long to publish the data, if they are good scientists they will have other data and more results for next year, a lot of delay in this process.

I think I know why Joe prefers to believe both L52 (which he mistakenly characterizes as "L151") and J1a "are just about impossible" in Afanasievo.

He's mainly out to discredit the L52 result and thinks the J1a result casts doubt on it: guilt by association.

Unless he has changed his tune, Joe is one of those old diehards who still thinks R1b-M269 is native to western Europe.

TigerMW
10-23-2020, 07:37 PM
FTDNA has not formally analyzed (to put on haplotree) the paper's L52 sample in Afanasievo. I asked them to look at it and they ran their analysis and said they will call it R-P310 (where L52 sits). They feel R-P310 is correct. They also say the sample is negative for two of the three R-L151 equivalents. The third is a no call.

An R-P310* person is pretty rare today so I don't think there was a lab person contaminating it.

As an aside, the joke was made that they wished all the lab technicians that do Y analysis were women. That would eliminate a Y chromosome mix-up error.

TigerMW
10-23-2020, 07:57 PM
Another side note, but it's important to be aware of.

The David Reich lab 1240K capture array is used in many of these ancient DNA studies.
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/downloadable-genotypes-present-day-and-ancient-dna-data-compiled-published-papers

These early L51 SNPs are targeted. I'm a little disappointed they didn't target the whole L51 block and couldn't figure out DF27 and ZZ12. However, I'm very happy they are doing a decent job on the R-Z290 and R-L21 blocks. Those could be big in identifying an origin for L21.

L51

PF7589

P310
P311 (R-P310)
L52 (R-P310)
YSC0000082 (R-P310)

L151
L11 (R-L151)
YSC0000191 (R-L151)

U106

P312
DF19
DF99
L238
U152
no DF27 but a number of downstream SNPs like Z195
no S1194 but has CTS4528

Z290
Z245 (R-Z290)
Z260 (R-Z290)

L21
L459 (R-L21)

The array has a set of targeted areas for the NGS testing. However, NGS testing will scan in additional regions so we can get lucky sometimes and find a tree SNP that is not on the targeted list.

homunculus
10-23-2020, 08:09 PM
So the main bulk of West European males originate in Mongolia, huh? So Finns are no longer alone with their Asian roots.

davit
10-23-2020, 08:56 PM
So the main bulk of West European males originate in Mongolia, huh? So Finns are no longer alone with their Asian roots.

R1a/R1b might ultimately be East Asian (if K2 is indeed from a Tianyuan or SE Asian like population) but not sure how anyone can draw the conclusion that M269, L23 and L51 originated in Mongolia.

rms2
10-23-2020, 09:24 PM
Why not? Mal'ta Boy was found near Lake Baikal.

davit
10-23-2020, 10:11 PM
Why not? Mal'ta Boy was found near Lake Baikal.

Its not guaranteed he is ancestral to modern R lineages. There's also a big time gap between Mal'ta's R* and L51. Plus don't we have aDNA from Mongolia after Mal'ta? Pretty sure the population of Mongolia was heavy in Q lineages and East Asian proper Ydnas. And pretty East Eurasian on the maternal side as well.

rms2
10-23-2020, 11:57 PM
Its not guaranteed he is ancestral to modern R lineages. There's also a big time gap between Mal'ta's R* and L51. Plus don't we have aDNA from Mongolia after Mal'ta? Pretty sure the population of Mongolia was heavy in Q lineages and East Asian proper Ydnas. And pretty East Eurasian on the maternal side as well.

Well, it's guaranteed he isn't, because he was about 7 years old when he died.

The point is that we shouldn't be surprised by an Asian or far east European origin for R1 (and his offspring R1a and R1b).

Geez.

davit
10-24-2020, 01:20 AM
Well, it's guaranteed he isn't, because he was about 7 years old when he died.

The point is that we shouldn't be surprised by an Asian or far east European origin for R1 (and his offspring R1a and R1b).

Geez.

Well it still remains to be seen if the broader population he was a part of was ancestral either.

Nobody argued against an Asian or far east European origin for R1 or even R1a or R1b or said it would be surprising. Just against a Mongolian origin of L51 (and probably M269 and L23). An argument that was likely made by the presence of pre-L51 in Afanasievo. Far Eastern Europe, North Central Asia/West Siberia and Mongolia were all home to different populations by the time L51 was born anyways so yea an origin of L51 would be pretty surprising east of Europe.

Sheesh.

jdean
10-24-2020, 09:44 AM
Well it still remains to be seen if the broader population he was a part of was ancestral either.

Nobody argued against an Asian or far east European origin for R1 or even R1a or R1b or said it would be surprising. Just against a Mongolian origin of L51 (and probably M269 and L23). An argument that was likely made by the presence of pre-L51 in Afanasievo. Far Eastern Europe, North Central Asia/West Siberia and Mongolia were all home to different populations by the time L51 was born anyways so yea an origin of L51 would be pretty surprising east of Europe.

Sheesh.

But I don't think anybody is seriously using this to argue that point, however it's more evidence in favour of an origin in Eastern Europe.

rms2
10-24-2020, 12:18 PM
Well it still remains to be seen if the broader population he was a part of was ancestral either.

Mal'ta Boy was related to the ancestor of all Y-DNA R men, since he himself belonged to y-haplogroup R. That is the "broader population" to which he belonged: y-haplogroup R. In addition, Mal'ta Boy lived and died about 24k years ago, when there weren't a whole lot of other people around.



Nobody argued against an Asian or far east European origin for R1 or even R1a or R1b or said it would be surprising . . .

No one said they did, but there were a couple of posts that carried a tone of surprise at finding any kind of R1b so far east.

jdean
10-24-2020, 02:09 PM
FTDNA has not formally analyzed (to put on haplotree) the paper's L52 sample in Afanasievo. I asked them to look at it and they ran their analysis and said they will call it R-P310 (where L52 sits). They feel R-P310 is correct. They also say the sample is negative for two of the three R-L151 equivalents. The third is a no call.

An R-P310* person is pretty rare today so I don't think there was a lab person contaminating it.

As an aside, the joke was made that they wished all the lab technicians that do Y analysis were women. That would eliminate a Y chromosome mix-up error.

Presumably they're calling it R-P310 because that's what they call that level ?

Any idea what SNP/s were called

jdean
10-24-2020, 05:37 PM
Presumably they're calling it R-P310 because that's what they call that level ?

Any idea what SNP/s were called

Hmm seems Pribislav disagrees with FTDNA slightly (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22033-BAM-Files-is-Available-(A-dynamic-6-000-year-genetic-history-of-Eurasia-s-Eastern-)&p=712222&viewfull=1#post712222)

rms2
10-24-2020, 11:41 PM
Ted Kandell posted the following on the YFull Facebook group:



The origin of R1b1a2a2a1-L51, the major "European" Y clade?
Sample SHT001, from the Afanasievo culture dated 3112-2918 calBCE from the Shatar Chuluu site in Erdenetsogt, MONGOLIA is R-L51 (L51+, 2 derived reads in 1240K capture array sequencing and 1 derived read in separate shotgun sequencing), but he has one ancestral read for the R-L52 equivalent Y410/E207 in 1240K sequencing. He also has 1 derived read for the R-L52 SNP PF6544/CTS7650/FGC44/S1164 in shotgun sequencing, but this is a C to T transition and seems likely to be the result of DNA damage.

Therefore, he seems to be a "pre-R-L51".
He also has only one novel SNP with more than 2 reads. He's right at the root of R-L51.
This may change the YFull tMRCA of R-L51 and R-L52.

This is the very earliest R-L51 ever found so far. As old or older than Yamnaya. No early R-L51s have been found in Europe or the western Steppe. The horse-herding Afanasievo culture migrated to the far east of the Steppe before Yamnaya arose, so it seems that R-L51 originated well to the east or north of Yamnaya. This is why early R-L51 hasn't been seen so far in Europe.
The earliest "European modal" mtDNA U5a1 on the Mongolian steppe was also just found at the Afanasievo site of Chatar Chuluu in Mongolia:
https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi...

Did anyone ever expect to find the earliest R-L51 in East Asia and not anywhere in Europe, like "Doggerland" (the English Channel), the popular theory about 12 years ago?

https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078

The two BAM files (already submitted to YFull):
http://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/.../ERR3828886/SHT001.B0101.bam
http://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/.../ERR3828887/SHT001.B0102.ss.bam

The location of Shatar Chuluu in Erdenetsogt, Mongolia:
https://www.google.com/.../data=!4m5!3m4...

https://bioone.org/.../humanbiol.../graphic/img-z2-1_213.jpg

ArmandoR1b
10-25-2020, 03:38 AM
FTDNA has not formally analyzed (to put on haplotree) the paper's L52 sample in Afanasievo. I asked them to look at it and they ran their analysis and said they will call it R-P310 (where L52 sits). They feel R-P310 is correct. They also say the sample is negative for two of the three R-L151 equivalents. The third is a no call.

An R-P310* person is pretty rare today so I don't think there was a lab person contaminating it.

As an aside, the joke was made that they wished all the lab technicians that do Y analysis were women. That would eliminate a Y chromosome mix-up error.

P310 wasn't the only L52 level SNP that the sample is derived for. This is the result of my analysis of SHT001.B0102.ss.bam



pos
marker_name
haplogroup
mutation
anc
der
reads
called_perc
called_base
state


8502236
L51/M412/PF6536/S167
R1b1a1b1a
G->A
G
A
1
100
A
D


18907236
P310/PF6546/S129
R1b1a1b1a1
A->C
A
C
1
100
C
D


9084870
PF6540/YSC0000082
R1b1a1b1a1
G->T
G
T
1
100
T
D


17589518
CTS7650/FGC44/PF6544
R1b1a1b1a1
C->T
C
T
1
100
T
D


18248698
P311/PF6545/S128
R1b1a1b1a1
A->G
A
G
3
100
G
D

ArmandoR1b
10-25-2020, 03:45 AM
Ted Kandell posted the following on the YFull Facebook group:

Y410 is an L51 equivalent. Regardless it is likely a back mutation or caused by something else that has an easy explanation. Ted needs to also look at P310/PF6546/S129, PF6540/YSC0000082, and P311/PF6545/S128. They are all found in the SHT001.B0102.ss.bam and they are all derived and are all at the L52 level along with PF6544/CTS7650/FGC44/S1164. There can't be four derived calls at the same level and all be erroneous. There can be an erroneous upstream ancestral call or a back-mutation.

ArmandoR1b
10-25-2020, 05:04 AM
Another side note, but it's important to be aware of.

The David Reich lab 1240K capture array is used in many of these ancient DNA studies.
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/downloadable-genotypes-present-day-and-ancient-dna-data-compiled-published-papers

These early L51 SNPs are targeted. I'm a little disappointed they didn't target the whole L51 block and couldn't figure out DF27 and ZZ12. However, I'm very happy they are doing a decent job on the R-Z290 and R-L21 blocks. Those could be big in identifying an origin for L21.

L51

PF7589

P310
P311 (R-P310)
L52 (R-P310)
YSC0000082 (R-P310)

L151
L11 (R-L151)
YSC0000191 (R-L151)

U106

P312
DF19
DF99
L238
U152
no DF27 but a number of downstream SNPs like Z195
no S1194 but has CTS4528

Z290
Z245 (R-Z290)
Z260 (R-Z290)

L21
L459 (R-L21)

The array has a set of targeted areas for the NGS testing. However, NGS testing will scan in additional regions so we can get lucky sometimes and find a tree SNP that is not on the targeted list.

The study also used shotgun testing which tests some SNPs not tested by the David Reich lab 1240K capture array. However, the skeletal material used was tooth and not petrous which resulted in a fairly low resolution result yet luckily enough SNPs were without damage to get a good idea of the clade.

ArmandoR1b
10-25-2020, 05:14 AM
Hmm seems Pribislav disagrees with FTDNA slightly (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22033-BAM-Files-is-Available-(A-dynamic-6-000-year-genetic-history-of-Eurasia-s-Eastern-)&p=712222&viewfull=1#post712222)

Not anymore. See https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22033-BAM-Files-is-Available-(A-dynamic-6-000-year-genetic-history-of-Eurasia-s-Eastern-)&p=712847&viewfull=1#post712847

jdean
10-25-2020, 09:41 AM
Not anymore. See https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22033-BAM-Files-is-Available-(A-dynamic-6-000-year-genetic-history-of-Eurasia-s-Eastern-)&p=712847&viewfull=1#post712847

Brilliant and with regards to Rich's earlier post about Ted Kandell's thoughts, even more for Yfull to ponder : )

OOI this sample has two reported calibrated dates

in 'A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia's Eastern Steppe' it says 3112-2918 BCE

but 'The Genomic Formation of Human Populations in East Asia' says 3316-2918 calBCE

Anybody got thoughts on which is the more reliable ?

rms2
10-25-2020, 02:41 PM
Yeah, so apparently that Afanasievo skeleton is R1b-L52, right?

I've been distracted by ordinary domestic duties since posting that Ted Kandell quote yesterday.

I've also been doing some work on the FTDNA project for my mother's surname, which is more interesting than I ever thought it would be.

Will Joe Flood show back up to acknowledge his errors?

jdean
10-25-2020, 03:25 PM
Yeah, so apparently that Afanasievo skeleton is R1b-L52, right?

I've been distracted by ordinary domestic duties since posting that Ted Kandell quote yesterday.

I've also been doing some work on the FTDNA project for my mother's surname, which is more interesting than I ever thought it would be.

Will Joe Flood show back up to acknowledge his errors?

Yes indeed : )

However there are bound to be a couple of silly arses skulking about in a corner somewhere claiming it doesn't prove anything because 'blah blah' : ))))))))))))))))

MitchellSince1893
10-25-2020, 03:37 PM
Brilliant and with regards to Rich's earlier post about Ted Kandell's thoughts, even more for Yfull to ponder : )

OOI this sample has two reported calibrated dates

in 'A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia's Eastern Steppe' it says 3112-2918 BCE

but 'The Genomic Formation of Human Populations in East Asia' says 3316-2918 calBCE

Anybody got thoughts on which is the more reliable ?

Don’t have an answer for you, but either way, the range midpoints (3117 and 3015 BC) are older than the currently oldest L23 sample I0443 (3300-2700 BC) range mid point, at Lopatino, Sok River, Samara site

rms2
10-25-2020, 03:47 PM
This part of Ted Kandell's Facebook YFull post is still worthy of serious consideration:



. . . This is the very earliest R-L51 ever found so far. As old or older than Yamnaya. No early R-L51s have been found in Europe or the western Steppe. The horse-herding Afanasievo culture migrated to the far east of the Steppe before Yamnaya arose, so it seems that R-L51 originated well to the east or north of Yamnaya. This is why early R-L51 hasn't been seen so far in Europe.
The earliest "European modal" mtDNA U5a1 on the Mongolian steppe was also just found at the Afanasievo site of Chatar Chuluu in Mongolia:
https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi...

Did anyone ever expect to find the earliest R-L51 in East Asia and not anywhere in Europe, like "Doggerland" (the English Channel), the popular theory about 12 years ago?

MitchellSince1893
10-25-2020, 04:00 PM
If the Afanasievo culture started around 3300 BC as some sources state, you could have
a man derived for L51 block SNPs PF6414 and/or PF6535 coming out of a Repin type culture in Eastern Europe (David Anthony’s view) going into the Afanasievo culture and giving birth to L51 SNP, and L52 block SNPs there, before descendants head back west.

Alternatively, this is a dead end L52 branch that originated further west, and the branch that gave birth P312 U106 etc stayed in the West.

jdean
10-25-2020, 04:10 PM
If the Afanasievo culture started around 3300 BC as some sources state, you could have
a man derived for L51 block SNPs PF6414 and/or PF6535 coming out of a Repin type culture in Eastern Europe (David Anthony’s view) going into the Afanasievo culture and giving birth to L51 SNP, and L52 block SNPs there, before heading back west.

Alternatively, this is a dead L52 branch that originated further west, and the branch that gave birth P312 U106 etc stayed in the West.

The most likely but that still doesn't stop this being a very important result.

Anyhow the chances of them actually digging up a Bronze age Y-DNA ancestor of modern man is probably incalculable : )

ArmandoR1b
10-25-2020, 04:47 PM
Yeah, so apparently that Afanasievo skeleton is R1b-L52, right?

L52/PF6541/A19949 and PF6538 are no-calls so we don't know if they are negative or positive. However, the derived (positive) calls for P310/PF6546/S129, PF6540/YSC0000082, CTS7650/FGC44/PF6544, P311/PF6545/S128 prove that he belongs in the clade of L52 since that is how we place specimens when phylogenetic equivalents results are unknown.

I am going to start to have to add the no-calls in my analyses which I think are extremely important for ancient DNA since at some point groups of phylogenetic equivalent SNPs for L52 could be broken up again.

ArmandoR1b
10-25-2020, 04:51 PM
with regards to Rich's earlier post about Ted Kandell's thoughts, even more for Yfull to ponder : )


Why? I still stand by my previous comments on the subject of this specimen it's results, it's dating, the highly mobile ability of these people, and the fact that a person, such as one of my great-grandfathers, can have 18 children and their children can have a lot of children and so on. Maybe I need to see Rich's post

razyn
10-25-2020, 05:23 PM
The most likely but that still doesn't stop this being a very important result.

Anyhow the chances of them actually digging up a Bronze age Y-DNA ancestor of modern man is probably incalculable : )

Speaking of that -- what different people have in mind when they say or write "the Bronze Age" is very widely variable. I was struck by the pretty extreme range of dates mentioned in a new PLOS-1 article cited by pmokeefe (but not discussed) three days ago on the GG and aDNA in the News thread: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0239861

I'll paste in a screen shot of the paragraph in which I noticed it. Maybe it's more standard than I realize, but I'm used to seeing a shorter (yet highly variable) Age, squeezed in between Copper and Iron, whenever and wherever the paper-writing team in question might wish to squeeze it.

40629

jdean
10-25-2020, 06:29 PM
Speaking of that -- what different people have in mind when they say or write "the Bronze Age" is very widely variable. I was struck by the pretty extreme range of dates mentioned in a new PLOS-1 article cited by pmokeefe (but not discussed) three days ago on the GG and aDNA in the News thread: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0239861

I'll paste in a screen shot of the paragraph in which I noticed it. Maybe it's more standard than I realize, but I'm used to seeing a shorter (yet highly variable) Age, squeezed in between Copper and Iron, whenever and wherever the paper-writing team in question might wish to squeeze it.

40629

Trouble is it depends on the culteral context the remains were found in so presumably you could have neolithic and bronze age people living within close proximity in the exact same time frame, still nowhere near as confusing as ISOGG nomenclature though : )

rms2
10-25-2020, 08:07 PM
I think Ted Kandell's notion might be correct, that L51 may have arisen far to the east and north of Yamnaya, and that is why no early L51 has yet shown up in Europe west of the steppe or in the western steppe.

If Afanasievo represents the eastward movement of Repin people, then perhaps the immediate predecessor of L51 first appeared in Repin.

Then perhaps, post Afanasievo, L51 got into Corded Ware via a more northerly route than the one taken by Yamnaya people. That might explain why those SE Polish L51 Corded Ware folks showed an autosomal affinity to Afanasievo.

parasar
10-25-2020, 09:44 PM
Ted Kandell posted the following on the YFull Facebook group:


... Did anyone ever expect to find the earliest R-L51 in East Asia and not anywhere in Europe, like "Doggerland" (the English Channel), the popular theory about 12 years ago? ...



I had suggested that was possible.
Actually Davidski of Eurogenes had a post that also could have potentially supported that, but that post was withdrawn.
Davidski: "For instance, it suggests that the origin of the Corded Ware Culture was not in the western part of the Yamnaya horizon or nearby, as is often assumed, but much further east, perhaps where the ancestors of the Afanasievo pastoralists began their migration to the Altai region."


See also:
"The parent language that immediately preceded and gave birth to Proto-
Indo-European was spoken in the Eneolithic Khvalynsk culture (5000 calBC)
of the mid- Volga forest steppe (Figure 4.5), descended from the Samara culture
(6000-5000 calBC) of the same area ...

...Like its predecessors, the Khvalynsk culture
interacted with the Sub-Neolithic hunter-gatherers occupying the forests of the
upper Volga region ...

The Khvalynsk culture expanded both east and west along the border of the
steppe and forest-steppe. In the east, Khvalynsk immigrants, after a long trek,
eventually reached southern Siberia and founded the Afanas'evo culture
(3600-2500 calBc) (Figure 4.5). In the west, the expansion of the Khvalynsk
culture created the Mariupol' and Chapli type burials (5000-4500 calBc) in the
Pontic steppe part of the Dnieper-Donets culture, in the area next occupied by the
Srednij Stog culture (4500-3350 calBc) (Figure 4.5)...

The Khvalynsk influence reached even further west, being represented by the
Decea Muresului cemetery of Romania (4500 calBc). The Suvorovo culture
(4500-4100 calBc) of Moldavia and Bulgaria probably belongs to the same wave of
immigration, for it has been considered as resulting from an early Srednij Stog
expansion to the west. Thus both the Afanas'evo culture of central Siberia, which is
considered to be related to the Quawrighul culture (2000-1550 calBc) of Sinkiang,
the region where Tocharian was later spoken, and the Suvorovo culture of Bulgaria
would both have preserved the pre-Proto-Indo-European language of the Khvalynsk
culture...

The Indo-European proto-language was spoken in the Srednij Stog culture
(4500-3350 calBc) of southern Ukraine, an offshoot of the Khvalynsk culture
with a Dnieper-Donets culture substratum. It developed in interaction with
the non-Indo-European speaking prosperous Tripol'e culture (5500-3000 calBc)
(cf. Figure 4.7: F), but had contact also with the early Proto-Uralic speaking Lyalovo
culture (5000-3650 calBc) which extended to the forest-steppe between the Dnieper
and the Don. After acquiring wheeled transport c.3500 calBC, the Srednij Stog
culture started expanding and disintegrating. It was first transformed into the Pit
Grave (Yamnaya) culture (3500-2200 calBc) distinguished by kurgan burials. Expan-
ding northward to the forest-steppe zone, early Pit Grave culture participated in the
formation of the Middle Dnieper culture (Figures 4.6: MD; 4.7: I) by 3300 calBC
and thus contributed to the formation of the new Corded Ware cultural complex
(Figures 4.6, 4.7), which quickly spread over wide areas of central and northern
Europe, appearing in the Baltic countries and southwestern Finland 3200-3 1 00 cal bc
and a little later in the Netherlands ..."
https://ia802909.us.archive.org/6/items/EdwinBryantLauriePattonIndoAryanControversyEvidenc eAndInferenceInIndianHistoryRoutledge2005/Edwin%20Bryant%2C%20Laurie%20Patton-Indo-Aryan%20Controversy_%20Evidence%20and%20Inference% 20in%20Indian%20History-Routledge%20%282005%29.pdf

ArmandoR1b
10-26-2020, 12:13 AM
I think Ted Kandell's notion might be correct, that L51 may have arisen far to the east and north of Yamnaya, and that is why no early L51 has yet shown up in Europe west of the steppe or in the western steppe.

If Afanasievo represents the eastward movement of Repin people, then perhaps the immediate predecessor of L51 first appeared in Repin.

Then perhaps, post Afanasievo, L51 got into Corded Ware via a more northerly route than the one taken by Yamnaya people. That might explain why those SE Polish L51 Corded Ware folks showed an autosomal affinity to Afanasievo.

You finally got me to buy a book on the subject. In case I should be reading a different one, which book that includes information about Repin do you recommend?

rms2
10-26-2020, 12:59 AM
Marija Gimbutas's Civilization of the Goddess mentions Repin but does not go into great detail. David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language has a lot more.

James Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans has a lot about Afanasievo and its origins.

Those are all fairly dated now, but they're still good.

parasar
10-26-2020, 01:17 AM
Marija Gimbutas's Civilization of the Goddess mentions Repin but does not go into great detail. David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language has a lot more.

James Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans has a lot about Afanasievo and its origins.

Those are all fairly dated now, but they're still good.
In case one wants to download and read:

https://ia800907.us.archive.org/27/items/horsewheelandlanguage/horsewheelandlanguage.pdf
https://www.academia.edu/34968552/Marija_Gimbutas_Old_Europe_Goddesses_and_Gods_and_ the_Transformation_of_Culture
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273819235_In_Search_of_the_Indo-Europeans_Language_Archaeology_and_Myth_By_J_P_Mal lory_254_173mm_Pp288_147_figs_27_pls_London_Thames _and_Hudson_1989_ISBN_0-500-05052-X_2400/link/5e5fd8f3a6fdccbeba1c6a83/download

MitchellSince1893
10-26-2020, 03:29 AM
The most likely but that still doesn't stop this being a very important result.

Anyhow the chances of them actually digging up a Bronze age Y-DNA ancestor of modern man is probably incalculable : )

Yeah I agree it’s most likely it’s a dead end branch due the existence of L51>PF7589, which today is found almost exclusively in Western and Central Europe. One sample is from Turkey. None so far from any of the stans, Russia or even the Ukraine. If L51 originated in Mongolia, one would think there would be at least 1 PF7589 sample from former Soviet Republics.

jdean
10-26-2020, 03:01 PM
Yeah I agree it’s most likely it’s a dead end branch due the existence of L51>PF7589, which today is found almost exclusively in Western and Central Europe. One sample is from Turkey. None so far from any of the stans, Russia or even the Ukraine. If L51 originated in Mongolia, one would think there would be at least 1 PF7589 sample from former Soviet Republics.

I don't think we need worry about modern Y-DNA distribution to guess this is an extinct line. At the end of the day there are very few surviving branches from this far back which is mostly because Y-DNA lines normally die out, this was reduced to mathematics by Francis Galton in the 19th C. (The Galton–Watson process (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galton–Watson_process))

However there was also apparently an increase in touchiness at the time leading to a dramatic bottle neck in the Y-chromosome.

rms2
10-26-2020, 03:02 PM
Yeah I agree it’s most likely it’s a dead end branch due the existence of L51>PF7589, which today is found almost exclusively in Western and Central Europe. One sample is from Turkey. None so far from any of the stans, Russia or even the Ukraine. If L51 originated in Mongolia, one would think there would be at least 1 PF7589 sample from former Soviet Republics.


Well, we only just got this one from Afanasievo, and there may be more on the way.

L51 might not have been all that successful until its carrier or carriers got in on a growing concern, like Corded Ware.

We don't have any comparably early or earlier L51 from anyplace else either.

MitchellSince1893
10-26-2020, 04:19 PM
I don't think we need worry about modern Y-DNA distribution to guess this is an extinct line. At the end of the day there are very few surviving branches from this far back which is mostly because Y-DNA lines normally die out, this was reduced to mathematics by Francis Galton in the 19th C. (The Galton–Watson process (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galton–Watson_process))

However there was also apparently an increase in touchiness at the time leading to a dramatic bottle neck in the Y-chromosome.

Interesting. My own paternal line has been on thin ice for 5 generations with only 1 son per generation (there may have other unknown sons on generation 1...hopefully so for my personal research).

jdean
10-26-2020, 05:24 PM
Interesting. My own paternal line has been on thin ice for 5 generations with only 1 son per generation (there may have other unknown sons on generation 1...hopefully so for my personal research).

We've stood still in the last 100 yrs, 3 boys > 5 boys >3 boys

Have to wait and see what happens with the next generation but I'm not expecting anything dramatic : )

Scat
10-27-2020, 10:40 AM
Western Mongolia is surrounded on all sides by mountains. And it is itself a mountainous area. It is impossible to walk there in a straight line. During migration there Afanasievo made an obvious detour, most likely from the south. Thus, do not think that the exodus to Mongolia takes little time. It is also worth noting that they probably arrived there from another mountainous area, since non-miners would not have climbed into Western Mongolia. I think the migration l51 there was from the Ural Mountains

rms2
10-31-2020, 01:54 PM
I started a Google spreadsheet for my own personal use to keep track of the oldest R1b-L51s. To get on the sheet, they have to date from before 2600 BC. Otherwise the sheet would be bogged down with Bell Beaker, and I'm really looking for stuff from before Bell Beaker.

Oldest Indo-European R1b-L51 (Before 2600 BC) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q3DI0RgUGN3t2PteXxRGXMwF7A-onO9gCxWKXqbTihc/edit?usp=sharing)

By "R1b-L51", I obviously mean L51 and anything downstream of it. If, for example, they find a pre-2600 BC R1b-P312, he will make the sheet.

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2020, 02:20 PM
IIRC Rise563 2541 BC

rms2
10-31-2020, 02:26 PM
IIRC Rise563 2541 BC

Ah, thanks. I have him on my Beaker spreadsheet as 2572-2512 BC, so I guess that date is the midpoint.

I'll add him.

rms2
10-31-2020, 02:30 PM
Ah, thanks. I have him on my Beaker spreadsheet as 2572-2512 BC, so I guess that date is the midpoint.

I'll add him.

Oh, I know why I did not add him in the first place. On my sheet he is listed as R1b-M269.

Has that changed?

rms2
10-31-2020, 02:40 PM
Okay, sorry.

I went back and edited my Google spreadsheet to read "Before 2600 BC". (I also edited post #196 above.)

I am really trying to avoid Bell Beaker, not that I have anything against it.

I will include any L51 Beaker skeletons from before 2600 BC, if any show up, but I'm really trying to get stuff from before Beaker or, if necessary, from its very earliest stages.

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2020, 03:31 PM
Oh, I know why I did not add him in the first place. On my sheet he is listed as R1b-M269.

Has that changed?
He was identified by Rocca as u152

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2020, 04:40 PM
I've been searching but can't find it, but wasn't there a P312 in Dutch Corded Ware that was around 2600 BC? I have some memory of this sample replacing RISE563 as oldest P312.

rms2
10-31-2020, 04:49 PM
I've been searching but can't find it, but wasn't there a P312 in Dutch Corded Ware that was around 2600 BC? I have some memory of this sample replacing RISE563 as oldest P312.

I don't think we have any Dutch Corded Ware yet at all.

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2020, 04:55 PM
I may have been confused, thinking of this fellow

One of the oldest individuals in the ancient DNA record belonging to R1b-P312 is I5748, a Beaker dated to 2579–2233 calBCE from the Oostwoud-Tuithoorn burial site in what is now West Frisia, The Netherlands. Interestingly, this part of Northwestern Europe was home to the Single Grave population shortly before I5748 was alive. And the Single Grave culture is a variant of the Corded Ware culture. So can anyone tell me if there's any evidence that I5748 and his kind were relative newcomers to West Frisia, from, say, somewhere in the direction of the Carpathian Basin? If not, then what are the chances that northern Beakers are by and large the descendants of the Single Grave people?

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16292-Eurogenes-Blog-Hungarian-Yamnaya-gt-Bell-Beakers&p=537324&viewfull=1#post537324

Anyway I did find this spreadsheet on Eurogenes which lists a couple of Swiss samples from the
Furtwängler 2020 study. One is L52, and the other is L151, dated 2734 and 2683 BC respectively for "Calibrated Date (2δ) 68.2%" column.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/174yaoT_OvTLO34_XM6_BIugQ1O0n6G5Tr7vZZ7hNPrw/edit#gid=0

rms2
10-31-2020, 04:56 PM
I may have been confused, thinking of this fellow


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16292-Eurogenes-Blog-Hungarian-Yamnaya-gt-Bell-Beakers&p=537324&viewfull=1#post537324

Anyway I did find this spreadsheet on Eurogenes which lists a couple of Swiss samples from the
Furtwängler 2020 study. One is L52, and the other is L151, dated 2734 and 2683 BC respectively for "
Calibrated Date (2δ) 68.2%" dates.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/174yaoT_OvTLO34_XM6_BIugQ1O0n6G5Tr7vZZ7hNPrw/edit#gid=0

The oldest L51 Swiss Corded Ware from Furtwängler are already on my spreadsheet.

rms2
10-31-2020, 04:58 PM
I don't think we have any Dutch Corded Ware yet at all.

An upcoming paper featuring L51 Single Grave Corded Ware from the Netherlands is one of the rumors currently being bandied about here and there.

Man, I hope that one appears soon.

Finn
10-31-2020, 05:03 PM
An upcoming paper featuring L51 Single Grave Corded Ware from the Netherlands is one of the rumors currently being bandied about here and there.

Man, I hope that one appears soon.

Would be no surprise because the former Bell Beaker area in the Netherlands still has higher L51.

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2020, 08:30 PM
I think Ted Kandell's notion might be correct, that L51 may have arisen far to the east and north of Yamnaya, and that is why no early L51 has yet shown up in Europe west of the steppe or in the western steppe.

If Afanasievo represents the eastward movement of Repin people, then perhaps the immediate predecessor of L51 first appeared in Repin.

Then perhaps, post Afanasievo, L51 got into Corded Ware via a more northerly route than the one taken by Yamnaya people. That might explain why those SE Polish L51 Corded Ware folks showed an autosomal affinity to Afanasievo.


You finally got me to buy a book on the subject. In case I should be reading a different one, which book that includes information about Repin do you recommend?


Marija Gimbutas's Civilization of the Goddess mentions Repin but does not go into great detail. David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language has a lot more.

James Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans has a lot about Afanasievo and its origins.

Those are all fairly dated now, but they're still good.

Since those posts I have read the passages about Repin and Afansievo. I haven't yet read posts in this thread since past what I am quoting.

James Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans doesn't mention Repin as a likely origin of Afanasievo but does mention Yamnaya as a likely source. David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language states "The Afanasievo migration to the Altai was carried out by people with a Repin-type material culture"

However, in the thread at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1847-PIE-and-Archeological-Evidence-of-Three-Migrations-paper (which post-dates the publication of Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys) Jean Manco states the following


Repin was a culture at the east end of the European steppe (middle Don–middle Volga) which preceded and contributed to Yamnaya. The link to Afanasievo (or Afanasevo) was deduced because there were some dates for Afanasievo which seemed earlier than Yamnaya, despite the fact that Afanasievo looks like Yamnaya. Now that those suspiciously early dates have been dismissed, as Anthony points out in the article linked to above, the story is more straightforward. Yamnaya > Afanasievo.

I bolded the last part. That means that Repin as the source of R-P310 in Afanasievo isn't as straightforward as we would like it to be. The following makes it even more questionable.


You can easily work it out for yourself. Just get a list of the characteristics of
1) Repin (single grave, not mobile, no wheels, etc)
2) Yamna (single grave, mobile, wheels, ploughs)
3) CW (single grave, mobile, wheels, ploughs)


As much as I get annoyed by insufficient, or even misleading, info in Wikipedia I saw something that I don't remember focusing on which caused me to investigate more. I0124 5657-5541 calBCE from Lebyanzhinka, Sok River, Samara is derived for M343 but ancestral for M269. There is a possibility that the specific mutation for R-M269 developed after the dating of that specimen or that the specimen is a very distant, phylogenetically and regionally, but we will never know since all of the phylogenetic equivalents of M269 are no-calls. The lack of information of ancestral reads and no-calls for I0124 in Wikipedia are important since they are important data points.

So now we are back to trying to R-P310 in Yamnaya, since it is a likely source of R-P310 in Afanasievo, which is something I am very interested in. If R-P310 or phylogenetic equivalents or immediate upstream SNPs are found in Yamnaya I would still like to find the source of R-P310 into Yamnaya.

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2020, 09:01 PM
An upcoming paper featuring L51 Single Grave Corded Ware from the Netherlands is one of the rumors currently being bandied about here and there.

Man, I hope that one appears soon.

So the suspected migration of L51 so far is Yamnaya 3300–2600 BC > Corded Ware 3100 BC – 2350 BC > Single Grave Corded Ware from the Netherlands 2,800 BC to 2,200 BC since Yamnaya > Afanasievo and Afanasievo has the L51 subclade of P310 and Swiss Corded Ware has similar?

Does anyone have a link to the Y-DNA analyses of MX304 and Aes25? I would like to see the no-calls and ancestral calls also.

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2020, 09:40 PM
Does anyone have a link to the Y-DNA analyses of MX304 and Aes25? I would like to see the no-calls and ancestral calls also.

I found the answer to MX304. It does not have a call for L52 or P310. It does have a derived call for P311 which is a A->G mutation. See https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20055-Ancient-genomes-reveal-social-and-genetic-structure-of-Late-Neolithic-Switzerland&p=660713&viewfull=1#post660713

Aesch25 (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/SRX7799930) must be the same as Aes25 since Aesch25 is also derived for L51, L52, and L151. The files posted by Generalissimo in the opening post prevented me from having to run an analysis.

R.Rocca
11-06-2020, 05:53 PM
Another side note, but it's important to be aware of.

The David Reich lab 1240K capture array is used in many of these ancient DNA studies.
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/downloadable-genotypes-present-day-and-ancient-dna-data-compiled-published-papers

These early L51 SNPs are targeted. I'm a little disappointed they didn't target the whole L51 block and couldn't figure out DF27 and ZZ12. However, I'm very happy they are doing a decent job on the R-Z290 and R-L21 blocks. Those could be big in identifying an origin for L21.

L51

PF7589

P310
P311 (R-P310)
L52 (R-P310)
YSC0000082 (R-P310)

L151
L11 (R-L151)
YSC0000191 (R-L151)

U106

P312
DF19
DF99
L238
U152
no DF27 but a number of downstream SNPs like Z195
no S1194 but has CTS4528

Z290
Z245 (R-Z290)
Z260 (R-Z290)

L21
L459 (R-L21)

The array has a set of targeted areas for the NGS testing. However, NGS testing will scan in additional regions so we can get lucky sometimes and find a tree SNP that is not on the targeted list.

U152 is not covered in their array. If I recall correctly, the early U152+ Bell Beaker sample was from another lab (Max Plank) and was a full sequence, not an array.

razyn
11-06-2020, 09:50 PM
U152 is not covered in their array. If I recall correctly, the early U152+ Bell Beaker sample was from another lab (Max Plank) and was a full sequence, not an array.

My recollection is that they were picking up L2, not U152. Is L2 on the 1240K capture array, but not listed by Mikewww?

R.Rocca
11-06-2020, 11:43 PM
My recollection is that they were picking up L2, not U152. Is L2 on the 1240K capture array, but not listed by Mikewww?

That is correct, L2 has very good coverage on the 1240K capture array.

TigerMW
11-10-2020, 08:17 PM
My recollection is that they were picking up L2, not U152. Is L2 on the 1240K capture array, but not listed by Mikewww?
I did not list the whole set of SNPs but yes, L2, is included. The list I have is my understanding of Reich's targets for capture. As noted, coverage may not be good regardless of attempts to target a location. They may have thrown in the towel on U152. I just have a list that is said to be what Reich targets in the 1240K version. Here is U152:

R1b1a1a2a2a1h1 U152
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a L2
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1 Z49
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1b3a F2083
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c Z142
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c1b2b BY65804
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c1b2b Y67572
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2 Z12222
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2 Z150
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2a1a BY51113
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2a3a FGC12405
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2b L553
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2b2 L552
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2d2a1 S42
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2d2b PH251
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c3 Z51
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c3a L562
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c3a1 Z57
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c3a1a1 Z12389
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c3a1a2a1c1a F3799
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c3a1b1c BY204797
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c5a1a FT185388
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c5a1a Y58020
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1e1a BY39313
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1h1 L202
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1h1 L203
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1h1a1b1 FGC42256
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1h1a1b1 SK1848
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a5a1a1a1b L196
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a5a2a1b FGC56398
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a6a1a1 CTS6441
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a6a2 BY43164
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a6b1 Y30649
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a6b2b1a PF4363
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aAa1b1a BY111268
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aAb1a Z40236
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aAb3c1b M8052
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aAb4 BY90132
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aCa1a1 Y22193
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aCa1a2a1 BY180458
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aCa1b SK2113
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aCa1b1a1 SK2111
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aFd1b1 L408
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aFd1b1 L409
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aGa1a2 Y12604
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aJ Y74240
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aJa1 Y137802
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aR Z258
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa Z367
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1 L20
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1b Z291
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1b1a BY3556
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1b1a1a2a BY34026
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1d CTS9733
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1d YSC0000193
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1d1a1a FGC17196
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1d1a1a1 FGC17192
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1e2a1d1d BZ3613
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1f S23981
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa1f1a1 Y139301
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa2 CTS9044
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa2 Z276
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa2 Z34
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa2a Z35
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa2a3a2a Z275
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa2a5a CTS8216
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa2a5a1 BY34166
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aRa2a5a3 L1081
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aVa1 L135
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1aVa1a1a2a F24130
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b Z36
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b1 CTS5531
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b1a CTS1595
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b1a CTS8492
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b3b1 CTS188
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b3b1a CTS4333
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b3b1a CTS7958
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b3b1b BY47210
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b5a L671
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b5b1g1 FGC71438
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b8b1 SK2114
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b8b1 SK2115
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1b8b1b SK2117
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1f1a1a FGC5054
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1f1c1 PF4363
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1f1d1b Z30053
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1f1e1b CTS7193
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1h1b M10942
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1i1a Z14466
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1l1a1 Z17173
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1l1a2a BY42752
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m Z56
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a1 S47
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a1 Z46
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a1a Z48
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a1a2a2 Z6960
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a3 PF6581
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a3 Z144
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a3 Z145
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a3a Z146
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a4a1c1 FGC8027
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1m1a4a1c1a L4

TigerMW
11-10-2020, 08:20 PM
So the DF27 guys won't feel left out, here is what I was given for them:

R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a Z195
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1 Z274
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a Z209
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a Z210
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a Z215
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a Z220
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a Z268
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a Z271
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a Z295
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1 Z270
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a Z211
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a Z216
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1 CTS12074
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1 Z212
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1 Z218
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1 Z221
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1 Z273
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1 Z278
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b Z697
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1 Z214
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1 Z298
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1a Z279
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1a5 SK2126
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1a5 SK2127
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1a5 Y27974
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1a6c M153
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1a6c1a2b SK2125
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1a6c1b F2735
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a1a1a1b1a6c1c1a1a CTS6315
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a2a CTS4065
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a2a1b A5363
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a2a2b F19343
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a2a3a1 S1227
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a2a5a1a1a FT82056
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a2a5b1a1a1a2a BY106712
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a2a5b1b2a1 Y62263
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a2a5b2 BY27768
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a3b BY13475
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a3b Z34956
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a5 Y20246
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a6 SK1907
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2a7b FT147434
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2b1b1a1 BY33265
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2b1b1a1 CTS7654
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1a2b1b1b1a FT77407
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1b CTS7768
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1b DF17
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1b S11695
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1b1b1b1a1 M428
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a1b2a SK2121
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2 Z198
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2a L165
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2a2a2a1a1b3a Z31000
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2a2b1 Y1238
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1 Z262
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a CTS4716
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a SRY2627
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a Z199
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a Z201
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a Z204
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a Z263
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1 Z200
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1 Z269
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a Z202
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a Z203
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a Z264
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a Z266
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1 Z205
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1a2 Y7733
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1a2a1b1c1 Z17173
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1 CTS8289
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1 Z208
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a Z207
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a CTS4299
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a5a FGC48553
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY103919
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY117634
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY117635
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY119639
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY126556
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY136290
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY145343
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY156675
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY65673
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY87221
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 BY99117
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 CTS12011
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 CTS7099
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c1a3a9 FT291196
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c3c1a1a L133
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a1c5a1a CTS5646
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1a3a2 Z16197
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b1a1b CTS4015
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b2a1a Y25205
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2b3b1a2 Y65461
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2c CTS4188
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2c1b1a1 FT76881
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2a2g1a2 M6018
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1 Z229
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1a2b2 BY36387
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1b Z222
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1b1a Z224
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1b1a1 Z223
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1c2 CTS9952
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1c2a1 FGC30968
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1d2a PAGE5
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1d2b1a FGC52402
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b1d2b2a Y31720
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b3 DF79
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b3a1 M8855
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b4b1a FGC23076
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b5b M6535
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b5b Y66232
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b5c1c1b BY91736
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b6c1a1a CTS9769
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b6c3a V3698
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b7a1 M2837
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b7b1c1a1 CTS6519
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b7b1c1a1b1a1 A12032
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b7b1c1a1c1a Y41600
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b8b1a1a1 FGC20753
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b8b1a1a1a1a2 Z16828
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b8b2a SK1028
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b8b2a1 BY22311
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b8b2a1 SK1525
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b8b4a BY135224
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2b9a2a Z13538
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bC F2430
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bCa1a1a FGC45071
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bFb1a Y73413
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bFb1b FT165053
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bJa SK1451
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bLb1 L1245
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bLb1 L1246
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1a1a1 BY19112
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1a1c1a2a M756
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1b SK2109
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1c1a3b1b1b2a2 Y82927
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1c1b3 Y27340
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1c1c1a1a BY19141
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1c1c3 FGC70992
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1d1a4a2 Z5254
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1h1a5b BY211022
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1h1b2a FT165008
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1h1b2b BY193266
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1h3b1 FT200028
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb1i1a2a2 M6586
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb2a1 CTS11567
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb2a1a DF84
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb2a2a3a1 Z35825
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb2a2a4a1b Y106998
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb2b1 FT21103
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb2c SK1211
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb4 BY109543
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb5 SK2110
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOb9 M6724
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOc2 Z1541
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOc4 FT97151
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOd2a L881
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOd3a1a1a1 FT1706
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOd3a1a2a F426
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOd3a1b BY94999
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOe1b1 M11668
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOe1b1a1 BY19203
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOf1b M8907
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bOk FT187248
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bPa L617
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bPa6a BY8121
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bPd1 DF81
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2bPd1a1a1a Z15310

TigerMW
11-10-2020, 09:07 PM
Another caveat on the Reich 1240K capture array. The targeting is not perfectly efficient so regions around the targets can be picked up. Hence, there may other SNPs picked up not on the target list. However, they are more likely to be inconsistently picked up.

razyn
11-10-2020, 11:06 PM
I feel marginally better about DF27. Anyway, not a lot worse. Wonder what h stands for, in the R1b haplotree.

MitchellSince1893
11-10-2020, 11:33 PM
I feel marginally better about DF27. Anyway, not a lot worse. Wonder what h stands for, in the R1b haplotree.

R1b1a1a2a2a1h1 = U152
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2 = DF27

Yeah what is this source for this nomenclature? Doesn't match anything in ISOGG, and a google search of R1b1a1a2a2a1h turns up nothing.

Maybe it's an internal FTDNA haplotree thing?

MitchellSince1893
11-11-2020, 02:10 PM
...Wonder what h stands for, in the R1b haplotree.



R1b1a1a2a2a1h1 = U152
R1b1a1a2a2a1h2 = DF27

Yeah what is this source for this nomenclature? Doesn't match anything in ISOGG, and a google search of R1b1a1a2a2a1h turns up nothing.

Maybe it's an internal FTDNA haplotree thing?

Based on FTDNA's current haplotree structure, this appears to be the case.

Which would mean

R1b1a1a2a2a1=P312
a=DF19
b=L238
c=A9063
d=Y18211
e=Z290 (L21 & BY22760)
f=BY25512
g=FGC84729
h=ZZ11 (U152 & DF27)
i=BY140446

R=M207
R1=M173
R1b=M343
R1b1=L754
R1b1a=L389
R1b1a1=P297
R1b1a1a=M269
R1b1a1a2=L23
R1b1a1a2a=L51
R1b1a1a2a2=P310
R1b1a1a2a2a=L151
R1b1a1a2a2a1=P312
R1b1a1a2a2a2=U106
R1b1a1a2a2a3=S1194
R1b1a1a2a2a4=A8053

From red fonts down, this structure differs from the current ISOGG tree.
In ISOGG 2020 R1b1a1b = M269

Sincerely,

R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2a3a2b

rms2
11-11-2020, 07:01 PM
Wait 5 minutes.

It's almost time for the music to stop and the longhand characters to switch. ;)

TigerMW
11-11-2020, 11:17 PM
We can't leave the L21 and Z290 guys out. Here is what was given to me as what the Reich 1240K array is targeting:

R1b1a1a2a2a1e Z245
R1b1a1a2a2a1e Z260
R1b1a1a2a2a1e Z290
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1 L21
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1 L459
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b DF13
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b Z2542
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1 DF21
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1a1 FGC33379
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1a3a Z3001
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b1a1 P314
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b1a1a2a L362
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a S3058
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2 FGC3181
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2 S424
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a FGC3187
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a FGC3207
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a FGC7851
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a S301
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a S426
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 CTS2187
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 CTS9333
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 S3027
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 S308
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 S309
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 S427
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1a1a Y16748
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1a2b1b1a1a2a2a Z4685
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1a4b S3033
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1a4b S425
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c S5488
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c1a1 L1336
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c1a1c2a2a SK997
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c2a1a Y90882
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c2a1a1a1a M7964
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c2a1a1a2b1 Z16289
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c2a2a1 L130
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c3a2 L720
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c3a3 BY45534
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c3b FGC33056
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a Z246
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1 DF25
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a DF5
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a Z248
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1a1a L658
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1 CTS3655
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1a L627
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1a2a L626
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1a2a1 L625
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1b1b1 V75
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1b1d1 Z15065
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2 L1403
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2a1a1 PF1052
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2a3 FT14463
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2b1a1b FGC42098
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2b1a3 SK433
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2b1c A682
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1d2 F24167
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1d2 SK1489
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b2 L580
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3 L513
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3 Z249
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1a3a1a2 L577
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a L193
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a1a1 FGC21248
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a3a1b1a2a BY11230
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a4a1 BY2638
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a4a1a SK1117
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a4a3a BY11221
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a2a BY4165
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a2c1a3 SK1245
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a2c1a4a2a1a1 P66
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a3a1 Z17911
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3b2a1a BY11525
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3d L908
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3d L909
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e1a CTS3087
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e1a Z16369
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e1a1a2a BY42769
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e1b1a1c1 F2338
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e2a L1333
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e2a2a PF7228
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e2b1 SK1686
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e3 L705
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e3 L706
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e4 FGC12955
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2a L96
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1 CTS4466
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1 CTS5714
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a1a L270
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a1b3a1a1a A2332
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a1b3c1b2 Z15318
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a2c1a1 BY19781
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a2d1a1a1b2a F23785
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a2d1a1a3a Z14956
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a2d1a1c1a A155
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3b2a BY24552
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5c1a1b1a1 Y54500
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5c2a1a FGC11281
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6a1 Y23442
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6a2 Z4428
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b1a1a L1314
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c1a1a A7553
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c1a1b1 Z17641
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c1a1b1d1c Y2357
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c1a2b1 Y58119
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c2a1a1 Z20522
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1a1b1 BY183036
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1a2a A7522
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1a2b2 Y27970
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1a2b2a2 FT344797
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1b1a CTS2457
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1b1a FGC81129
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4b1b Y38031
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4b2a L701
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a Z252
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a Z253
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1 Z2534
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1a1a FGC41890
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1a2 Y71169
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1 Z2184
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1a1 CTS4314
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a L1066
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a Z2183
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a3 BY14532
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a3 FT42798
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a3a2 BY14546
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a5 L894
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1aFa1a1a BY2706
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1aGa1 CTS9881
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1aGa1d1b BY158769
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1aL PF3247
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1c1b BY11859
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1c2b1a1 M6513
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3 Y9162
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3 Z2195
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3 Z2202
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a S928
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a S932
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a Z2189
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a Z2190
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a Z2197
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2 DF73
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2 S941
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a S933
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a Z2188
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a Z2200
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1 Z17259
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT301280
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT301500
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT301895
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT302438
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT351516
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a PH4912
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b4a4a1a2a Y103434
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b4a4a1b1a L643
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b4b AM00281
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b4b1 Z13468
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1c1 FGC5627
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1c1a L226
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1c1a1c1a2a1b1a SK1958
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a3a2b1a M5888
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a3b1b1a BY69632
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a3b1b3a1a2b1b1a A4668
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a3b1b5 Z12854
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a4 A20
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a4a1a L1308
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a4a1d1 CTS6458
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a1 Z12375
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a2a L554
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a2a2 BY151238
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a3a1a FGC3251
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a3a6 Y91305
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5b1b1b1 F22325
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5b2 M6489
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7b1a Y29055
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7c1 Z255
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7c1b1a1a Z17694
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7c1b2b1d5a1a2a1 BY17755
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7d1b2 Z13760
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7d1c1a1a Y74979
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7d1c2 F1843
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7e1a1a1a1a5 M64
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7e1a1a1a1a6 BY92870
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a CTS2501
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a DF41
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a2b L744
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a2b L746
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a2b S777
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a3a1 Z9204
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a6d1 A41
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a6e1 BY172
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8aBa1 L563
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b CTS1751
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b1a1b1a Z31161
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b1a3b1 Y154338
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b1b1a BY88463
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b1c3a FT309917
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c DF49
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1 DF23
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a Z2961
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a1a1a1b1a1 BY38746
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a1a2a Z15158
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a1a5a Z13524
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 M222
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2955
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2962
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2963
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2964
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2970
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2972
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2973
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2988
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b S658
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1 DF104
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b DF105
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b DF109
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3 S588
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3b S7814
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3b1a2b F14659
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3b4 F1265
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3e1a1b M8081
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3h A10629
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3i1a1a2a Z8353
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4 DF85
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4b1a DF97
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4b1a3b1b2b CTS8002
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4b1a3b1b3 Y26014
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4b1a3b2a1a BY21189
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4c2a BY2731
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b5a1a FGC37882
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b6 FT344813
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1bG Y77196
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1bNa6 FT186119
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1bNb1c4 V86
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1d1a SK1772
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1c1 A16071
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1c1 Z13194
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c3b2 JD1
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c3b2a2 BY170301
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c3b3a1c1a2 M8407
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c3b3a3b1a Z18049
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d L1335
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d S5257
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1 CTS6838
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1 CTS7030
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1 L1065
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2b S691
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2b1a2a FGC15167
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2b2a2b1d CTS4554
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2c4a L743
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2d1a1a3a PF5721
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1b1a2b3 FT140715
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d2a Z16995
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8e1b1a1a Z351
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8f1a L679
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g Z251
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2a1a1 A11660
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2a2a M4561
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2a4b FT49998
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c1b2a BY65537
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c1c1 L555
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c1c1 L557
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c2a1c M129
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c5a2a Y27875
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b4b BY141787
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b5b FGC16202
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b7a1a L583
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b7b F20575
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b8a SK1925
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a2a2 BY55588
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g5a5a2 Z14414
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g5a5d3 BY109447
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8h3b1 FGC17866
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8hAa FGC9671
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8hAa FGC9707
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8hCb Y25700
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8i3a1a2 BY23529
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8k1 CTS2494
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8l1a1 Y58660
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8n Z14303
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8p L526
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8t FT78792
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8u1a BY12460
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8v1a FGC43879
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8v1a1b FT153822
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8v3 BY118483
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8z1 L371
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8z1b M11461
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1bHa Y27940
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c DF63
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c1 CTS6919
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c1a2b1b Z73
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2a1a1a1a3 FT79260
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2a1a2 BY687
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2a1a3b BY196901
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2c1 FT83698
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2c2a Z14332
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c3b FGC51564
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1d2a BY11884

GoldenHind
11-12-2020, 08:27 PM
Sincerely,

R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2a3a2b



Say what?

alejandromb92
11-12-2020, 08:32 PM
We can't leave the L21 and Z290 guys out. Here is what was given to me as what the Reich 1240K array is targeting:

R1b1a1a2a2a1e Z245
R1b1a1a2a2a1e Z260
R1b1a1a2a2a1e Z290
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1 L21
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1 L459
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b DF13
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b Z2542
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1 DF21
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1a1 FGC33379
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1a3a Z3001
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b1a1 P314
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b1a1a2a L362
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a S3058
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2 FGC3181
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2 S424
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a FGC3187
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a FGC3207
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a FGC7851
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a S301
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a S426
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 CTS2187
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 CTS9333
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 S3027
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 S308
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 S309
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1 S427
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1a1a Y16748
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1a2b1b1a1a2a2a Z4685
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1a4b S3033
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1b2a2a1a4b S425
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c S5488
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c1a1 L1336
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c1a1c2a2a SK997
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c2a1a Y90882
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c2a1a1a1a M7964
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c2a1a1a2b1 Z16289
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c2a2a1 L130
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c3a2 L720
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c3a3 BY45534
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1c3b FGC33056
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a Z246
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1 DF25
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a DF5
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a Z248
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1a1a L658
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1 CTS3655
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1a L627
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1a2a L626
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1a2a1 L625
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1b1b1 V75
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c1b1d1 Z15065
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2 L1403
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2a1a1 PF1052
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2a3 FT14463
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2b1a1b FGC42098
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2b1a3 SK433
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1c2b1c A682
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1d2 F24167
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b1d1a1a1d2 SK1489
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b2 L580
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3 L513
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3 Z249
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1a3a1a2 L577
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a L193
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a1a1 FGC21248
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a3a1b1a2a BY11230
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a4a1 BY2638
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a4a1a SK1117
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a1d1a4a3a BY11221
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a2a BY4165
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a2c1a3 SK1245
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a2c1a4a2a1a1 P66
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3a3a1 Z17911
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3b2a1a BY11525
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3d L908
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3d L909
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e1a CTS3087
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e1a Z16369
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e1a1a2a BY42769
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e1b1a1c1 F2338
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e2a L1333
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e2a2a PF7228
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e2b1 SK1686
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e3 L705
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e3 L706
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b3e4 FGC12955
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2a L96
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1 CTS4466
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1 CTS5714
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a1a L270
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a1b3a1a1a A2332
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a1b3c1b2 Z15318
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a2c1a1 BY19781
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a2d1a1a1b2a F23785
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a2d1a1a3a Z14956
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3a2d1a1c1a A155
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5a2b1b3b2a BY24552
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5c1a1b1a1 Y54500
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b5c2a1a FGC11281
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6a1 Y23442
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6a2 Z4428
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b1a1a L1314
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c1a1a A7553
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c1a1b1 Z17641
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c1a1b1d1c Y2357
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c1a2b1 Y58119
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b3c2a1a1 Z20522
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1a1b1 BY183036
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1a2a A7522
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1a2b2 Y27970
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1a2b2a2 FT344797
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1b1a CTS2457
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4a1b1a FGC81129
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4b1b Y38031
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b6b4b2a L701
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a Z252
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a Z253
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1 Z2534
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1a1a FGC41890
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1a2 Y71169
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1 Z2184
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1a1 CTS4314
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a L1066
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a Z2183
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a3 BY14532
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a3 FT42798
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a3a2 BY14546
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1a5 L894
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1aFa1a1a BY2706
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1aGa1 CTS9881
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1aGa1d1b BY158769
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1aL PF3247
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1c1b BY11859
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b1b1c2b1a1 M6513
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3 Y9162
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3 Z2195
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3 Z2202
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a S928
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a S932
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a Z2189
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a Z2190
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a Z2197
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2 DF73
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2 S941
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a S933
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a Z2188
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a Z2200
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1 Z17259
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT301280
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT301500
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT301895
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT302438
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a FT351516
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b3a2a1a1a PH4912
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b4a4a1a2a Y103434
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b4a4a1b1a L643
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b4b AM00281
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1b4b1 Z13468
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1c1 FGC5627
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1c1a L226
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a1c1a1c1a2a1b1a SK1958
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a3a2b1a M5888
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a3b1b1a BY69632
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a3b1b3a1a2b1b1a A4668
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a3b1b5 Z12854
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a4 A20
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a4a1a L1308
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a4a1d1 CTS6458
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a1 Z12375
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a2a L554
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a2a2 BY151238
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a3a1a FGC3251
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5a3a6 Y91305
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5b1b1b1 F22325
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7a5b2 M6489
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7b1a Y29055
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7c1 Z255
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7c1b1a1a Z17694
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7c1b2b1d5a1a2a1 BY17755
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7d1b2 Z13760
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7d1c1a1a Y74979
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7d1c2 F1843
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7e1a1a1a1a5 M64
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b7e1a1a1a1a6 BY92870
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a CTS2501
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a DF41
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a2b L744
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a2b L746
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a2b S777
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a3a1 Z9204
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a6d1 A41
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8a6e1 BY172
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8aBa1 L563
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b CTS1751
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b1a1b1a Z31161
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b1a3b1 Y154338
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b1b1a BY88463
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8b1c3a FT309917
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c DF49
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1 DF23
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a Z2961
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a1a1a1b1a1 BY38746
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a1a2a Z15158
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a1a5a Z13524
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 M222
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2955
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2962
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2963
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2964
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2970
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2972
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2973
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1 Z2988
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b S658
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1 DF104
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b DF105
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b DF109
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3 S588
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3b S7814
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3b1a2b F14659
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3b4 F1265
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3e1a1b M8081
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3h A10629
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b3i1a1a2a Z8353
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4 DF85
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4b1a DF97
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4b1a3b1b2b CTS8002
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4b1a3b1b3 Y26014
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4b1a3b2a1a BY21189
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b4c2a BY2731
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b5a1a FGC37882
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1b6 FT344813
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1bG Y77196
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1bNa6 FT186119
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1a3a1b1bNb1c4 V86
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1a1d1a SK1772
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1c1 A16071
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c1c1 Z13194
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c3b2 JD1
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c3b2a2 BY170301
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c3b3a1c1a2 M8407
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8c3b3a3b1a Z18049
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d L1335
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d S5257
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1 CTS6838
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1 CTS7030
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1 L1065
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2b S691
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2b1a2a FGC15167
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2b2a2b1d CTS4554
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2c4a L743
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1a2d1a1a3a PF5721
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d1b1a2b3 FT140715
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8d2a Z16995
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8e1b1a1a Z351
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8f1a L679
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g Z251
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2a1a1 A11660
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2a2a M4561
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2a4b FT49998
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c1b2a BY65537
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c1c1 L555
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c1c1 L557
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c2a1c M129
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g2c5a2a Y27875
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b4b BY141787
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b5b FGC16202
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b7a1a L583
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b7b F20575
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a1a2b8a SK1925
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g3a2a2 BY55588
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g5a5a2 Z14414
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8g5a5d3 BY109447
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8h3b1 FGC17866
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8hAa FGC9671
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8hAa FGC9707
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8hCb Y25700
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8i3a1a2 BY23529
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8k1 CTS2494
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8l1a1 Y58660
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8n Z14303
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8p L526
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8t FT78792
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8u1a BY12460
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8v1a FGC43879
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8v1a1b FT153822
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8v3 BY118483
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8z1 L371
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1b8z1b M11461
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1bHa Y27940
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c DF63
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c1 CTS6919
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c1a2b1b Z73
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2a1a1a1a3 FT79260
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2a1a2 BY687
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2a1a3b BY196901
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2c1 FT83698
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c2c2a Z14332
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1c3b FGC51564
R1b1a1a2a2a1e1d2a BY11884

Do you have the SNP of all of them?

rms2
11-15-2020, 06:12 PM
Do you have the SNP of all of them?

Maybe I am misunderstanding your question, but it looks like the terminal SNP is listed right after the long-wind (longhand) designator in each case.

rms2
11-15-2020, 06:22 PM
BTW, if you are curious about a particular Y-DNA SNP, a good place to run it down is Genetic Homeland (https://www.genetichomeland.com/).

Just click on DNA Marker Index on the right and type the name of the SNP or its numerical position in the little box entitled, "Marker Name or Numerical Position", and click on the green Search button.

You can then click on "View Pedigree" in the Notes box.

Good stuff, and very handy.

alejandromb92
11-15-2020, 08:00 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding your question, but it looks like the terminal SNP is listed right after the long-wind (longhand) designator in each case.

I meant the rsxxxx and the hg19 positions. Thanks anyways!

rms2
11-15-2020, 08:06 PM
I meant the rsxxxx and the hg19 positions. Thanks anyways!

Then my follow-up post is good news for you, because you can use Genetic Homeland to look those up.

MitchellSince1893
11-16-2020, 03:00 AM
Say what?
It was a tongue in cheek reponse.
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2a3a2b is the FTDNA long hand for my current terminal branch per FTDNA's tree structure


I did not list the whole set of SNPs but yes, L2, is included. The list I have is my understanding of Reich's targets for capture. As noted, coverage may not be good regardless of attempts to target a location. They may have thrown in the towel on U152. I just have a list that is said to be what Reich targets in the 1240K version. Here is U152:

R1b1a1a2a2a1h1 U152
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a L2
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1 Z49
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1b3a F2083
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c Z142
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c1b2b BY65804
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c1b2b Y67572
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2 Z12222
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2 Z150
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2a1a BY51113
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2a3a FGC12405
...

Continuing on from the long-hand in bold of my branch above as identified by Mikewww
and according to the current FTDNA tree structure

R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2a3a2=FGC12405>FGC12384

My father and I form the 2nd branch under FGC12384 so by default we would be
R1b1a1a2a2a1h1a1c2a3a2b = FGC12405>FGC12384>FGC12386

rms2
11-16-2020, 01:29 PM
Can't see any good reason to maintain the long hand.

The short hand, i.e., the major haplogroup followed by the terminal SNP, is much better.

I do prefer the use of "R1b" to "R", however, like so: R1b-M269 versus R-M269.

R1b is still suitably brief, but it quickly tells one a lot more than the mere R does.

JoeyP37
11-16-2020, 01:43 PM
Wow, those are way longer than my known terminal subclade, YP445 or R1a1a1b1a1b1d, MRCA born around 600 AD, but that is most likely due to the bottleneck suffered by the M458 clades, which I am blaming on the Goths, whose R1b is mostly U106, so you guys can sleep easy. The proliferation of L21 clades is largely due to Americans of British Isles origin testing the most, that, and my own ancestry is the reason the most common haplogroup among my DNA relatives is L21 or a subclade.