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Finn
03-28-2020, 11:08 AM
In Europe it's considered one of the seven beauties: to have blond hair and brown eyes or to have dark hair and blue/gray eyes.

Of course the main reason is that these combinations are rather seldom.

The science behind this:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/smdpp1nmys2.07.15.png

It seems like if blond hair and brown eyes (-0,64) is less seldom than blue eyes and dark hair (-0,94).

I want to know more about this combination, strictly out of curiosity and interest!

Do you have one of those combinations and/or do you have some relevant (genetic) info, please post it!

Finn
03-28-2020, 11:47 AM
I have brown eyes, blond hair combination.

I started very light gold blond (with some red undertone).

Meanwhile (end forties) this has darkened somewhat, current hair color, I guess this is dark gold blond.

https://www.mupload.nl/img/7l4k3a270xdi3.18.07.png

My eyes are chestnut brown:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/ceg12f1v.12.59.png


'Analysis'

I guess that my brown eyes/ blond hair combination is due to a combination that is 'edgy' on the blond side and 'edgy' on the brown eyes side. In simple words: just enough melanin to get brown eyes but not enough to create brown hair.....

Eyes
I mean with edgy on the brown eyes side because it's clearly brown, but it contains a mix. From a picture of eye colors and mixes of brown, intermediate and blue/gray my eyes come close to this one.

https://www.mupload.nl/img/mlihozb.13.14.png

That's described as:

55% brown, 31% blue and 14% intermediate.

That's congruent with the analysis of DNA Land:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/torckhb74tl.36.10.png
https://www.mupload.nl/img/5bzqlv8pr.36.29.png

So it's brown eyed, but leaning towards a middle position and with clear blue recessive genes!

Hair
At the Promethease site I found the blond hair connection:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/b4e0i406lx.44.18.png

rms2
03-28-2020, 08:28 PM
So, let me get this straight: You are one of the Seven Wonders of the World, right up there with the Colossus of Rhodes and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, right?

Oops! I got that wrong. Excuse me.

You're just one of the Seven Beauties! ;)

(Just kidding around, Finn.)

Finn
03-28-2020, 08:53 PM
So, let me get this straight: You are one of the Seven Wonders of the World, right up there with the Colossus of Rhodes and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, right?

Oops! I got that wrong. Excuse me.

You're just one of the Seven Beauties! ;)

(Just kidding around, Finn.)

ROFLOL

Great thank you friend!

Of course my parents did a wonderful, great job. Absolutely.

Colossos, Hanging Gardens no chance.

Finn first beauty of the world.

:biggrin1:

bye (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crmvHJpCkfM)

:biggrin1:

rms2
03-29-2020, 01:32 AM
BTW, I started life with really light blond hair, like corn silk, but it got progressively darker as I grew up.

By the time I was in my late twenties, my hair was fairly dark, but my eyes are light blue, like those of my mother. My dad's eyes were brown, a lot like yours, Finn.

I don't have any real good photos of that phenomenon, so you'll have to take my word for it. Here's a photo of me at about age 11. I had a real bad case of chapped lips that winter, as you can see from the photo.

37000

vettor
03-29-2020, 02:14 AM
paternal line

Grandfather ..........hair chestnut.....eyes green ..............my grandmother ....black hair and grey eyes

my father .............hair black....eyes green ..................my mother brown hair and hazel eyes

myself ............hair light brown ........eyes green ................my wife, dark blond and blue eyes
1st son .......hair dark blond....eyes blue

2nd son.....hair black......eyes blue and his sons below ..............his wife brown eyes
1st grandson .........hair dark blond ....eyes blue
2nd grandson .........hair mid brown .......eyes blue


I see no correlation of hair and eyes as a package ............eyes have a clear line........hair , no idea



DNAland give me blond hair and brown eyes ............wrong and wrong

there problem is that they do not know that green eyes come from blue eyes

.................................................. .....................
23andme has me correctly as green eyes
Victor, your genetics make you most likely to have blue or green eyes.
52% have blue eyes.
21% have greenish blue eyes.
17% have green eyes
8% have light hazel eyes
2% have dark hazel eyes

Finn
03-29-2020, 12:13 PM
Victor, your genetics make you most likely to have blue or green eyes.
52% have blue eyes.
21% have greenish blue eyes.
17% have green eyes
8% have light hazel eyes
2% have dark hazel eyes

The obvious thing is that although it seems to be likely that sips for hair and eyes spirit, they mostly come with a 'package deal' (= blond hair/blue eyes, dark hair/brown eyes).

I guess one factor in that plays a part in the fact that blond and brown eyes seems to occur more often than dark hair and blue/gray eyes is that 'light and medium' brown eyes contain a (severe) shot light coloring.....

Here a chart with the difference mixtures:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/cjky49mwm.46.21.png


I wonder if there are people with dark brown eyes, so level 0.97> brown, the last five ones on the chart that have blond hair!!!

alan
03-29-2020, 12:45 PM
Light eyes and brunette hair is pretty well the default here in Ireland. Id guess over 50% of the population has that combo. Blonde hair and brown eyes, that would be incredibly rare combo here. I can only think of one person I know who has it. Blonde hair almost always goes with blue eyes here. Red hair almost always goes with light eyes here too. I find it weird when I see redheads with dark eyes (though you do see that combo among Scots IMO).

Personally, though ive no knowledge of genetic mechanisms for it, I think eye colour usually goes most with skin tone, not hair colour. Light eyes seem to go with fair skin while dark eyed people seem here to go with the slightly more sallow/olive skinned minority.

alan
03-29-2020, 12:52 PM
The obvious thing is that although it seems to be likely that sips for hair and eyes spirit, they mostly come with a 'package deal' (= blond hair/blue eyes, dark hair/brown eyes).

I guess one factor in that plays a part in the fact that blond and brown eyes seems to occur more often than dark hair and blue/gray eyes is that 'light and medium' brown eyes contain a (severe) shot light coloring.....

Here a chart with the difference mixtures:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/cjky49mwm.46.21.png


I wonder if there are people with dark brown eyes, so level 0.97> brown, the last five ones on the chart that have blond hair!!!


That's not true in the isles and especially the Irish and Scots where many many people have dark hair and blue or blue-green eyes. The blonde hair plus brown eye combo would be rare here because blonde hair is minority and so are darker eyes. The two together is something ive only seen rarely. In contrast, light eyes and mid to dark brown hair are every 2nd person in Ireland.

Finn
03-29-2020, 03:11 PM
That's not true in the isles and especially the Irish and Scots where many many people have dark hair and blue or blue-green eyes. The blonde hair plus brown eye combo would be rare here because blonde hair is minority and so are darker eyes. The two together is something ive only seen rarely. In contrast, light eyes and mid to dark brown hair are every 2nd person in Ireland.

I guess you have got the central point here!

Dark hair and light eyes seem to be a kind of Irish/Scottish combination, although I have seen them on the continent also. Is this stereotype or are there figures? Are these the kind of eyes that are 0.90> blue (in the chart) and really dark hair?

With blonde hair and brown eyes I guess the chances to see some in especially my region are bigger. Because according to a research from Hofstee (1937) my region got 81% blond haired. As blond hair is the most common, the chances of getting a 'exceptional' blond one with brown eyes are greater.
My grandfather got it, my father and I got it.

This one from Günther (2018) seems also relevant:

It will be interesting to see how common such variants were among Mesolithic groups as more genome sequence data become available. The genomic data further allowed us to study the physical appearance of SHGs (S8 Text); for instance, they show a combination of eye color varying from blue to light brown and light skin pigmentation. This is strikingly different from the WHGs—who have been suggested to have the specific combination of blue eyes and dark skin [18,20,21,23] and EHGs—who have been suggested to be brown-eyed and light-skinned.


Would in some sense the Irish/ Scottish follow the WHG pattern? (except the darker skin?) And the old funnel beaker regions follow the SHG pattern? And the EHG (Indo-European) influence? Just wild guesses.....

Pylsteen
03-29-2020, 03:28 PM
Brunette+blue is relatively common in my family. Blonds are present but at a minority and generally with blue eyes. My gg-grandmother had red hair and brown eyes. I think my gg-grandfather was blond with brown eyes, but then we are talking about dark blond or light brunette.

Finn
03-29-2020, 03:57 PM
Brunette+blue is relatively common in my family. Blonds are present but at a minority and generally with blue eyes. My gg-grandmother had red hair and brown eyes. I think my gg-grandfather was blond with brown eyes, but then we are talking about dark blond or light brunette.

Not to make it a freak show, but these are my grandfather, my nephew and I (the little one) in the early seventies....
All blond with brown eyes (old man already turned gray). Excuse for the quality.

https://www.mupload.nl/img/1sdok4z5fbrx9.jpg

vettor
03-29-2020, 04:39 PM
Light eyes and brunette hair is pretty well the default here in Ireland. Id guess over 50% of the population has that combo. Blonde hair and brown eyes, that would be incredibly rare combo here. I can only think of one person I know who has it. Blonde hair almost always goes with blue eyes here. Red hair almost always goes with light eyes here too. I find it weird when I see redheads with dark eyes (though you do see that combo among Scots IMO).

Personally, though ive no knowledge of genetic mechanisms for it, I think eye colour usually goes most with skin tone, not hair colour. Light eyes seem to go with fair skin while dark eyed people seem here to go with the slightly more sallow/olive skinned minority.

what about the so called "black irish "....black hair and blue eyes

Chnodomar
03-29-2020, 04:45 PM
Phenotypically ,"dark" hair (if including light brown hair in that category) and light eyes is certainly the most or second most combination in central and northwest Europe. I don't believe for a minute, that brown eyes and blond hair is a more common combination than that.
Usually, even if someone lives in a very blond region, the percentage of light eyes is even greater than that of blonde hair, which logically means, that a large share of dark haired individuals must be light eyed. Actual blonde hair and dark eyes seems very uncommon.

And actually the findings of that table you shared seems to be at odds with table 2 from the same study, where what I stated above, is clearly shown. So either we interpret table 3 wrongly, something inhibits the genotypical correlation to express itself phenotypically or they made a mistake.

vettor
03-29-2020, 04:51 PM
The obvious thing is that although it seems to be likely that sips for hair and eyes spirit, they mostly come with a 'package deal' (= blond hair/blue eyes, dark hair/brown eyes).

I guess one factor in that plays a part in the fact that blond and brown eyes seems to occur more often than dark hair and blue/gray eyes is that 'light and medium' brown eyes contain a (severe) shot light coloring.....

Here a chart with the difference mixtures:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/cjky49mwm.46.21.png


I wonder if there are people with dark brown eyes, so level 0.97> brown, the last five ones on the chart that have blond hair!!!


the chart is based on the fact that there are only 2 types of eye colour...brown and blue
green and grey sit under the blue category

I would sit closest to your chart ....top row , 3rd from left , my father was lighter than this

my sons would be , 1st row, 3rd from bottom

my grandsons are, top row, second from left

my mother and sister are bottom row , 3rd from left ..........they call it brown eyes, although my mother rim is a blue colour,



for what it is worth, my
rs12913832
Gene: Near OCA2 .............GG

Finn
03-29-2020, 05:09 PM
Phenotypically ,"dark" hair (if including light brown hair in that category) and light eyes is certainly the most or second most combination in central and northwest Europe. I don't believe for a minute, that brown eyes and blond hair is a more common combination than that.
Usually, even if someone lives in a very blond region, the percentage of light eyes is even greater than that of blonde hair, which logically means, that a large share of dark haired individuals must be light eyed. Actual blonde hair and dark eyes seems very uncommon.

And actually the findings of that table you shared seems to be at odds with table 2 from the same study, where what I stated above, is clearly shown. So either we interpret table 3 wrongly, something inhibits the genotypical correlation to express itself phenotypically or they made a mistake.

How about this?
https://www.mupload.nl/img/7qj1qhx2rpxhp.07.15.png

No blond hair and brown eyes is NOT common, nowhere.
But in regions with 80%> blond the chance you get a blond haired with brown eyes is bigger....

oz
03-29-2020, 05:31 PM
Since we're posting our eyeball pictures why not join in, bored enough anyway

https://i.ibb.co/SB4S4gv/20200329-105910.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/44GbdXZ/20200329-105333.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/m5nXYKx/20200329-105507.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/jZdhSZY/20200329-090709.jpg


And I didn't even wash my face this morning before i took these pics that's how little I care. You can probably see some corona particles around my eyes.

Chnodomar
03-29-2020, 05:32 PM
How about this?
https://www.mupload.nl/img/7qj1qhx2rpxhp.07.15.png

As I said:


And actually the findings of that table you shared seems to be at odds with table 2 from the same study, where what I stated above, is clearly shown. So either we interpret table 3 wrongly, something inhibits the genotypical correlation to express itself phenotypically or they made a mistake.



But in regions with 80%> blond the chance you get a blond haired with brown eyes is bigger....
If you look at studies that quantify the phenotypical appearance of those colours, the percentage of light eyes is basically always much higher than that of blond hair.

So if you have a region with, for example, 80% of blond hair and 90% of light eyes the chance for dark hair (20%, if we disregard red hair for a moment) and light eyes is logically higher than that for blond hair and brown eyes (10%, if we disregard green and hazel eyes), if it follows basic mathematics...
A majority of those 10% of brown eyes has to go with dark hair, so only like 2-5% will realistically be available for blonde hair. But even if it didn't go with dark hair primarily and we assume for a moment, that all 10% of brown eyes go with blonde hair, then all dark haired individuals have to be light-eyed and still vastly outnumber the blonde haired, brown eyed individuals at 20% to 10%.

Apart from the fact, that these ratios are probably only the case for some regions in Scandinavia and Frisia anyway.

Finn
03-29-2020, 05:43 PM
As I said:





If you look at studies that quantify the phenotypical appearance of those colours, the percentage of light eyes is basically always much higher than that of blond hair.

So if you have a region with, for example, 80% of blond hair and 90% of light eyes the chance for dark hair (20%, if we disregard red hair for a moment) and light eyes is logically higher than that for blond hair and brown eyes (10%, if we disregard green and hazel eyes), if it follows basic mathematics...
A majority of those 10% of brown eyes has to go with dark hair, so only like 2-5% will realistically be available for blonde hair. But even if it didn't go with dark hair primarily and we assume for a moment, that all 10% of brown eyes go with blonde hair, then all dark haired individuals have to be light-eyed and still vastly outnumber the blonde haired, brown eyed individuals at 20% to 10%.

Apart from the fact, that these ratios are probably only the case for some regions in Scandinavia and Frisia anyway.

I guess the following is also true in absolut numbers.
Let's say only 1% of the natural blond haired have brown eyes.
We have a population of 1000.
With 80% blond haired we have 800 blond haired, 1% of them have brown eyes, makes it 8.
With 20% blond haired we have 200 blond haired 1% of them have brown eyes makes it 2.
So indeed in regions with high blond haired in Scandinavia and the North German Plain (incl North Dutch) the amount of blond hair with brown eyes is bigger.....

Trelvern
03-29-2020, 06:05 PM
deleted

Stefanie
03-29-2020, 06:47 PM
Me, my parents, and brother, all have Very dark brown hair and blue eyes. My dad and brother have a darker complexion than my mom and I. I wonder if that’s how 23andme decides on hair color. Because on skin tone my brother and I differed on one marker. And they correctly called his hair color. One of my grandsons was born blond and brown eyed. One grandson blond and blue eyed. One granddaughter brown haired, dark complexion, and blue eyed. The boys hair has darkened over time. All children of my son and his wife. And all perfect. Of course. Lol.

My brother’s

1% have light blond hair.

6% have dark blond hair.

25% have light brown hair.

61% have dark brown hair.

7% have black hair

Mine


Of 23andMe research participants with results like yours:

17% have light blond hair.

45% have dark blond hair.

25% have light brown hair.

13% have dark brown hair.

< 1% have black hair.

They correctly got blue eyes for us both. Also got skin tone right. But not the hair for me.

alan
03-29-2020, 06:53 PM
what about the so called "black irish "....black hair and blue eyes

The term seems to a new world one and people who use it cant even make their minds up as to what it means. But if its black hair and blue eyes then it must be rare. Real black hair as opposed to brown is actually rare in Ireland. A scientific sample of 10000 Irish people done by Harvard in the 1940s I think sampled living Irish people across the whole island found only 3% black hair. Irish eye colour is roughly 50% Blue, 30% blue-green and most of the rest are some form of hazel. Apparently pure brown (I suppose dark brown eyes) are only 0.5% in Ireland.

Other people seem to use the term black Irish to simply mean people with dark hair, hazel eyes and skin that isnt as fair as the Irish norm. I suppose that type isnt uncommon - perhaps around 15% of the pop but they really are not especially dark so the name black Irish seems absurd.

Interestingly, the south-east coast of Ireland has twice as much of the darker skin shades than the west. The east is also only half as freckly as the west. So, it appears that the more 'native' Irish were very predominantly fair freckly skinned and the slightly darker less freckled skin is more likely the relate to the many waves of later settlers in the south-east of Ireland.

alan
03-29-2020, 07:10 PM
Pretty well all my relatives out to cousins and grandparents on both sides of my family seem to follow the same basic pattern. All fair skinned blue eyed except one cousin who looks so different I call him 'the changeling'. Mostly had very fair hair (from white blond to yellow 'butter blond') as infants. Usually shifting from blond to mousey around 7 or 8 years old. Mid brown by 12 and pretty well staying that way after. The girls seemed to darken a little slower than the boys. But all eventually ended up with the same sort of mid brown shade. I know the ginger genes is carried in the family (my sister tested positive for it at 23 and me and an uncle had a red beard) but I dont think we have had a redhead in several generations despite it being very very common for families to throw them up randomly.

Finn
03-29-2020, 07:34 PM
Phenotypically ,"dark" hair (if including light brown hair in that category) and light eyes is certainly the most or second most combination in central and northwest Europe. I don't believe for a minute, that brown eyes and blond hair is a more common combination than that.
Usually, even if someone lives in a very blond region, the percentage of light eyes is even greater than that of blonde hair, which logically means, that a large share of dark haired individuals must be light eyed. Actual blonde hair and dark eyes seems very uncommon.

And actually the findings of that table you shared seems to be at odds with table 2 from the same study, where what I stated above, is clearly shown. So either we interpret table 3 wrongly, something inhibits the genotypical correlation to express itself phenotypically or they made a mistake.


A scientific sample of 10000 Irish people done by Harvard in the 1940s I think sampled living Irish people across the whole island found only 3% black hair. Irish eye colour is roughly 50% Blue, 30% blue-green and most of the rest are some form of hazel. Apparently pure brown (I suppose dark brown eyes) are only 0.5% in Ireland.

Other people seem to use the term black Irish to simply mean people with dark hair, hazel eyes and skin that isnt as fair as the Irish norm. I suppose that type isnt uncommon - perhaps around 15% of the pop but they really are not especially dark so the name black Irish seems absurd.



From Blok (in the table is said Blom) the Dutch population in 1908:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/rk3qk8.20.57.png

Here we see the combination blond hair with brown eyes is 7,8%
The combination black hair and blue/gray eyes is 1.9%.

More specific about my North Dutch region is said (Hofstee 1937, also based on Blok), Groningen (my heartland) has the most blond haired 81%, Friesland has the most blue/gray eyed 81,5%. And more on a micro level about a village in my subregion is said only 75,2% have blue/gray eyes. So may be there is a little blond hair/ brown eyed hotspot ;)

By the way a much smaller sampling gives a complete other picture:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/alrhg4cdrfr0.53.48.png

Here we see the combination blond hair with brown eyes is 2,5%
The combination dark hair and blue/gray eyes is 28,3.%

So quite arbitrary business.....
http://www.tweelingenregister.org/nederlands/verslaggeving/NTR-publicaties_2016/Lin_TRHG_2016.pdf

rms2
03-29-2020, 10:19 PM
We have a pretty good contingent of redheads on my dad's side of the family, and he himself was a carrier of the red hair variant Arg160Trp (R160W), or rs1805008 T, which he passed on to me (I know I got it from him because my mom doesn't carry it).

I've posted a lot of this stuff before in the various red hair threads, but here is a pic of me showing my reddish moustache, one of my youngest daughter as a baby, and one of my grandkids (children of my youngest son) from a few years ago.

37010 37011 37012

My dad's sister, Lois, was a carrot-top redhead.

oz
03-29-2020, 11:33 PM
That's an impressive cop/fireman stache you had going on there.

Finn
03-30-2020, 09:31 AM
The term seems to a new world one and people who use it cant even make their minds up as to what it means. But if its black hair and blue eyes then it must be rare. Real black hair as opposed to brown is actually rare in Ireland. A scientific sample of 10000 Irish people done by Harvard in the 1940s I think sampled living Irish people across the whole island found only 3% black hair. Irish eye colour is roughly 50% Blue, 30% blue-green and most of the rest are some form of hazel. Apparently pure brown (I suppose dark brown eyes) are only 0.5% in Ireland.

Other people seem to use the term black Irish to simply mean people with dark hair, hazel eyes and skin that isnt as fair as the Irish norm. I suppose that type isnt uncommon - perhaps around 15% of the pop but they really are not especially dark so the name black Irish seems absurd.

Interestingly, the south-east coast of Ireland has twice as much of the darker skin shades than the west. The east is also only half as freckly as the west. So, it appears that the more 'native' Irish were very predominantly fair freckly skinned and the slightly darker less freckled skin is more likely the relate to the many waves of later settlers in the south-east of Ireland.

Even in science, we see that's in the eye of the beholder, or in other words the definitions are different.
In society's with somewhat lighter pigmentation dark blond is seen as brown and in society's with darker pigmentation light brown is seen as blonde.....

From Jonas Mengel-From e.a. Genetic determinants of hair and eye colours in the Scottish and Danish populations (2009)

Danes

https://www.mupload.nl/img/figh5exra8.06.30.png

Light blond/fair and brown/hazel eyes: 3,6%
Black/brown/darkblond and blue eyes: 29%




Scots

https://www.mupload.nl/img/bkkurr6v.05.49.png

Fair hair and brown/hazel eyes:1,5%
Black hair and blue/grey eyes:2,2%

To some extent apples and oranges!!!

rms2
03-30-2020, 02:16 PM
That's an impressive cop/fireman stache you had going on there.

Thanks! I was just 18. That pic came from my very first university ID card, back when they used those old data punch things (you can see one below my ear).

Finn
03-30-2020, 03:25 PM
please delete

rms2
04-01-2020, 01:20 AM
On my mom's side of the family there are a lot of blonds. My maternal grandmother was a natural golden blond, and she had very striking light blue eyes. She kept her blond hair without the use of hair dye right up until the day she died at age 81.

My cousin June on that side of the family is so fair that she is nearly an albino and has to be really careful out in the sun. Her hair is so blond it is nearly white, and she has very blue blue eyes (not pink like a true albino).

My mom's people tend to be tall and slender, too, like Scandinavians.

Finn
04-01-2020, 02:27 PM
Baltic blond hair brown eyes


Razib Khan:

In Living Races of Man Carleton S. Coon1 asserted offhand that the Baltic region exhibits a relatively high frequency of blondes who also happen to have brown eyes. In contrast, Ireland is characterized by dark-haired blue-eyed individuals (especially western Ireland). The latter assertion I find plausible, though it must be admitted that the majority of northern Europeans have dark hair and blue eyes, so it would not be implausible if the intersection of the two traits in many areas exceeded 50%. But, in any case, I don’t know much about the Baltic region, so I set about to see if I could find evidence of the brown-eyed blonde

I fond this Lithuanian modelling agency which has a facebook with a decent amount of information. I could puzzle out the terms for “blue,” “green” and “brown” (for eye color pretty quickly), though the many variations in hair color I simply compressed into “blonde” and “dark” categories. Here is the pivot table that excel popped out for me (I surveyed only the adult female models, someone else can check out the dudes if they are so inclined):Eye colorBlondeDarkTotalsBlue231336Brown41115Green1111 32Totals383573

I don’t see a high frequency of brown-eyed blondes, and when I was going through the facebook I was actually surprised at how many very dark women there were employed by the agency (see here). I had a hard time keeping track of the names, so perhaps they were Russian (though the woman I linked to just right now is Lithuanian if her name is any clue, check with google if you don’t believe me). As you can see, the blonde women in fact had the lowest number with brown eyes, an indication of either population substructure, or, more likely as far as I’m concerned, a genetic assocation between the alleles that code for hair and eye color (MC1R is implicated in pigmentation in general, but there are many, many, other loci, one recent count suggests 120, though many of those will likely be involved in regulation of MC1R).

Funnelbeaker influence
As posted earlier the definitions of blond and brown eyes is difficult. But based on the available sources the percentages in the Dutch and Danish population are between 4%-8% of blond and brown eyed. That's indeed not high frequent but still significant. The available sources about for example Scotland show that it's there significant less.

Like with the blond haired in general I suspect a relationship with the funnel beakers in stead of the Baltic HG. The reasons? I see in the genetiker list under the Funnelbeaker heir Globular Amphora a blond majority, with even a blond/brown eyed sample:

GAC genetiker:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/jjjz1cpsvv1.24.50.png

TRB genetiker:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/niwojg.10.33.png

And Narva Baltic HG is much more WHG like, so dark brown or black hair and blue eyes:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/7yvgljs1.21.03.png


The SHG were a little bit preluding the GAC/TRB people, Günther (2018):


It will be interesting to see how common such variants were among Mesolithic groups as more genome sequence data become available. The genomic data further allowed us to study the physical appearance of SHGs (S8 Text); for instance, they show a combination of eye color varying from blue to light brown and light skin pigmentation. This is strikingly different from the WHGs—who have been suggested to have the specific combination of blue eyes and dark skin [18,20,21,23] and EHGs—who have been suggested to be brown-eyed and light-skinned.

This comes in conflict with the assumptions of Peter Frost. He states that from the Baltic to Siberia the lightning of hair and eyes began:


We still need more data, but it seems that the current European phenotype arose during the last ice age, some 10 to 20 thousand years ago, among hunting people who inhabited the plains stretching from the Baltic to Siberia. Their women were subjected to strong sexual selection for two reasons. First, men were fewer in number. In a hunting society, male mortality increases as hunters cover longer distances, and mean hunting distance is longest in open northern environments. Second, polygyny was less frequent. Since men provided almost all the food, the effort of providing for a second wife and her children was impossible for all but the best hunters. With few polygynous men, and fewer men altogether, women were in a tough market — too many competing for too few. Even slight improvements in attractiveness could make a big difference.


Moltala Genetiker:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/8ffrw37xpr.04.53.png

That's weird because we saw that the Baltic HG had a WHG kind of mix, dark hair and blue eyes! Only SHG (somewhat) and first of all the Neolithic cultures were clearly blond and mostly blue eyed. For example Neolithic Greece had for the most part blond hair with brown eyes.

Neolithic Greece Genetiker:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/hskt5q6j4fs.07.54.png


So the concept as Peter Frost has states could well be at stake. Because it seems like if the Baltic HG were not (as assumed!) the blond frontrunners but the Neolithic cultures, especially TRB/GAC. But these cultures were not typical HG cultures, so


Their women were subjected to strong sexual selection for two reasons. First, men were fewer in number. In a hunting society, male mortality increases as hunters cover longer distances, and mean hunting distance is longest in open northern environments. Second, polygyny was less frequent. Since men provided almost all the food, the effort of providing for a second wife and her children was impossible for all but the best hunters. With few polygynous men, and fewer men altogether, women were in a tough market — too many competing for too few.


...isn't the case along TRB/HG! It can be a little bit the case along the SHG (but not as heavily as along the GAC/TRB ), but it's is not in the Baltic not in Northern Norway (Steigen) is the case, there we can find all dark haired HG's!

So I guess Frost has to revise his assumptions.....Don't we have to focus on the TRB/GAC cultures?

Finn
04-02-2020, 07:59 PM
Light eyes and brunette hair is pretty well the default here in Ireland. Id guess over 50% of the population has that combo. Blonde hair and brown eyes, that would be incredibly rare combo here. I can only think of one person I know who has it. Blonde hair almost always goes with blue eyes here. Red hair almost always goes with light eyes here too. I find it weird when I see redheads with dark eyes (though you do see that combo among Scots IMO).

Personally, though ive no knowledge of genetic mechanisms for it, I think eye colour usually goes most with skin tone, not hair colour. Light eyes seem to go with fair skin while dark eyed people seem here to go with the slightly more sallow/olive skinned minority.

If Günther e.a. (2018) and genetiker are right:
SHG: eye color varying from blue to light brown, hair varying from mostly blond to dark, with some red, light skin pigmentation.

WHG and East Baltic HG (Narva): eye color is blue, hair dark, dark skin

EHG: eye color brown, hair dark, light skin.

Steppe pastoralist:eye color mostly brown, hair brown, light skin.

The spread of blond hair in Northern Europe:

1.blond hair first emerged among the SHGs;

2. the spread was continued during the neolithic period, especially the funnel beakers (/globular amphora) spread blond hair all over Europe. Funnel cups were a mixture of Ertebølle / SHG and EEF. The blond-haired impulse may have come not only from the SHG but also from the EEF, according to Genetiker there are several samples from Neolithic Greece with blond hair!;

3.the arrival of the Steppe Pastoralist was pre-eminently a moment of sexual selection, if we can believe prof Kristiansen, then the arrival of the Steppe Pastoralist often meant that the funnel beaker men were murdered and the women 'were taken hostage.' This ensures that from that moment on, the blonde hair enjoyed increasing popularity in the entire former Funnelbeaker area;

4. the Bell Beaker (Steppe Pastoralist dash Funnelbeaker) showed a mixed pattern;

5. what s is till a miracle to me are the east Baltics nowadays it's mostly very fair and blue/ gray eyed, but what caused this because the Baltic HG/ Narva were mostly WHG like so dark hair, blue eyes but different from WHG with light skin.....so what caused the shift to blond hair?

Feel free to comment. Thanks in advance!

Piquerobi
04-02-2020, 09:09 PM
1.blond hair first emerged among the SHGs;

And yet the earliest individual known to have carried the allele associated with blond hair in Europeans, so far, is Afontova Gora 3, dated to around 16,130-15,749 BC, from the Yenisei river, in Siberia.


Afontova Gora is a Late Upper Paleolithic Siberian complex of archaeological sites located on the left bank of the Yenisei River near the city of Krasnoyarsk, Russia. Afontova Gora has cultural and genetic links to the people from Mal'ta-Buret'.

Afontova Gora 3

In 2014, more human fossil remains were discovered at Afontova Gora II during salvage excavation before the construction of a new bridge over the Yenesei River.

The remains belonged to two different females: the atlas of an adult female and the mandible and five lower teeth of a teenage girl (Afontova Gora 3) estimated to be around 14–15 years old. Initially, the new findings were presumed to be roughly contemporaneous with Afontova Gora 2. In 2017, direct AMS dating revealed that Afontova Gora 3 is dated to around 16,130-15,749 BC (14,710±60 BP).

In a 2016 study, researchers determined that Afontova Gora 2, Afontova Gora 3, and Mal'ta 1 (Mal'ta boy) shared common descent and were clustered together in a Mal'ta cluster. Genetically, Afontova Gora 3 is not closer to Afontova Gora 2 when compared to Mal'ta 1.

Phenotypic analysis shows that Afontova Gora 3 carries the derived rs12821256 allele associated with blond hair color in Europeans, making Afontova Gora 3 the earliest individual known to carry this derived allele.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afontova_Gora


"The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with and likely causal for blond hair in Europeans, is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala, and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that the earliest known individual with the derived allele (supported by two reads) is the ANE individual Afontova Gora 3, which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (14710±60 BP, MAMS 27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here). We cannot determine the status of rs12821256 in Afontova Gora 2 and MA-1 due to lack of sequence coverage at this SNP"
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fnature25778/MediaObjects/41586_2018_BFnature25778_MOESM2_ESM.pdf

alan
04-02-2020, 10:15 PM
Another factor is degree of sun. Ive noticed that brunette people from the isles who go to sunny hot areas like Australia will see their hair lighten considerably from darker browns to light mousey browns and mousey people will go dirty fair. I have mid brown hair (not either dark nor mousey) and ive seen it go within a month to a light mousey brown during rare hot summers where ive been outside a lot. My normally fairly dark eyebrows kind of go ginger in heatwaves too!

alan
04-02-2020, 10:28 PM
One difference that may have fed blondism into the future Germanic zone may have been the that the TRB farmers and also GAC had themselves absorbed north/north-eastern European hunter DNA. A key difference between northern Europe west of the Rhine area and the part east of the Rhine was that the initial waves of post-glacial hunters spread from west to east and north where they led to the early Mesolithic Maglemosian type hunters. They even made it to the isles. The later Mesolithic (seems to have included a more eastern ANE microblade using element which did not spread further west than the Rhine or into the isles. This is also true of the pottery Mesolithic groups of the north European plain. So, I think the hunter substrate that would have been absorbed would have differred depending on what side of the Rhine area the farmers settled.

Stephen1986
04-02-2020, 11:12 PM
I have dark-ish brown hair and blue eyes, a combination of brown hair (of varying shades) and blue eyes (also of varying shades) is seen in almost every adult member of my family as far as I know of (the kids are often blonde, although my half-Spanish niece and nephew have dark hair from an early age). My hair sometimes looks almost black and sometimes it looks almost medium brown - it tends to lighten in the summer. I tend to tan fairly well but can easily get sunburnt.

Finn
04-03-2020, 03:44 PM
One difference that may have fed blondism into the future Germanic zone may have been the that the TRB farmers and also GAC had themselves absorbed north/north-eastern European hunter DNA. A key difference between northern Europe west of the Rhine area and the part east of the Rhine was that the initial waves of post-glacial hunters spread from west to east and north where they led to the early Mesolithic Maglemosian type hunters. They even made it to the isles. The later Mesolithic (seems to have included a more eastern ANE microblade using element which did not spread further west than the Rhine or into the isles. This is also true of the pottery Mesolithic groups of the north European plain. So, I think the hunter substrate that would have been absorbed would have differred depending on what side of the Rhine area the farmers settled.

Absolutely the Funnelbeakers (TRB ) were for the most part Ertebølle HG, so SHG!

The Funnelbeaker spread about 3400 BC from the "South Baltic" to the whole North German Plain incl. the NE Dutch area.
They displaced the Swifterbant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swifterbant_culture) population in the NE Dutch area. The Swifterbant people were, we have no samples just indices, very WHG like (blue eyes, dark skin, dark hair).

But it's remarkable that SHG and TRB had a very different pigmentation compared to the east Baltic Narva culture, the Narva people seem to be blue eyed, light skinned but had (at least the available samples) all dark hair!!!

This is the TRB/ Ertebølle expansion (3400 BC) to the NE Netherlands (and the whole North German plain), this is until today the most blond part of the Netherlands and Germany....this can't be a coincidence!



https://www.mupload.nl/img/qyzvvrmv.png


https://www.mupload.nl/img/usqsblg0c.50.16.png


And

The blond hair hotspots:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/73mzg4rqw81.46.45.png

Cosen
04-04-2020, 12:43 AM
Dark brown hair and green eyes with some greenish brown/yellow central heterochromia. I had one grandparent light eyed (blue/gray eyes) and the others were (or are) brown eyed. My two parents are "brown" eyed (my mother has dark hazel eyes however). I guess they carry some blue alleles though I've the lightest eyes in my close family.


https://i.imgur.com/JPzF8yy.png
https://i.imgur.com/Qg0pexf.png



The green shade is in reality a blue-green mix :

https://i.imgur.com/bpN3dl0.png

https://i.imgur.com/az73Xjm.png

A bit like this color :

https://i.imgur.com/UnPO3PD.png

And indeed on some light they can appear as blue :

https://i.imgur.com/ylRVelK.png

Ruderico
04-04-2020, 11:47 AM
My missus fits these less common groups, she has dark brown hair and blue/gray eyes

37056

davit
09-23-2020, 05:49 PM
Brown/black hair with light eyes is very common on both my paternal and maternal side.

alan
09-23-2020, 07:17 PM
Facial features are what makes beauty. No colouring is going to make you beautiful if you dont have good facial features. However, I think dark hair, very pale skin and blue eyes is stunning on a beautiful girl. Many men seem fooled by blond hair to think an average or even a below average looking woman is better looking than she is because she has blond hair. Women of course know this and thats why so many dye their hair blond. But personally it doesnt fool me. The only thing with the dark hair/pale skin/blue eyes combo is it doesnt carry well as a person ages so many women with that colouring dye their hair blond as they age.

davit
09-23-2020, 07:19 PM
Facial features are what makes beauty. No colouring is going to make you beautiful if you dont have good facial features. However, I think dark hair, very pale skin and blue eyes is stunning on a beautiful girl. Many men seem fooled by blond hair to think an average or even a below average looking woman is better looking than she is because she has blond hair. Women of course know this and thats why so many dye their hair blond. But personally it doesnt fool me. The only thing with the dark hair/pale skin/blue eyes combo is it doesnt carry well as a person ages so many women with that colouring dye their hair blond as they age.

Its not hard to spot bottle blondes.

Revmac
09-23-2020, 08:25 PM
I’m curious as to what the other 6 beauties are?

Facial symmetry and the Fibonacci sequence do seem to be big factors in a persons perceived attractiveness.

My hair was extremely light (almost bleached white) until well into my teens. It’s darkened up a little in the past few decades. I don’t have dark eyes though. Mine are blue. I don’t mind blonde women but I really loves me a fiery haired vixen!:eyebrows:

Kanenas
09-24-2020, 11:17 AM
I wonder if there are people with dark brown eyes, so level 0.97> brown, the last five ones on the chart that have blond hair!!!


Probably not. But in Europe black (very dark brown) eyes with black hair is also a rare combination and it is interesting when the skin is light (not reddish).

Henry Stevens
10-01-2020, 06:42 PM
This thread seems to be about sexual selection and linkage of two alleles, that for blonde hair and blue eyes. Both seem unrelated and to have arisen at different times in different places. Both seem to have spread like wildfire, separately, especially in Northern Europe. Now it appears blondism is washing over areas already having blue eyes, especially at the far corners of Europe. But is this only sexual selection? If these changes had no other selective basis would they be spreading as they are? If this is just sexual selection, why did these changes not spread East into China?

The other issue discussed seems to be infantile blondism. This has obvious advantages for children not getting enough vitamin D or not getting enough food, periodically. This latter point was the condition of the Neanderthals. This may mean infantile depigmentation is very old and just overlies everything else.

Doesn't real linkage have to do with nearby positions on the chromosome? This is not the case for blue eyes and blonde hair, is it? If this is true this is faux linkage at best. Perhaps the most modern expansion of both alleles, out of what is modern Sweden, is just an accidental condition, an accidental faux linkage.

Finn
02-08-2021, 08:16 PM
I'm a kind of test geek.....so this one I 'had' to take ;)

It was pretty accurat!!!

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22949-DNA-Selfie-Appearance-Predictor-results&p=745871#post745871

rms2
02-08-2021, 11:34 PM
Facial features are what makes beauty. No colouring is going to make you beautiful if you dont have good facial features. However, I think dark hair, very pale skin and blue eyes is stunning on a beautiful girl. Many men seem fooled by blond hair to think an average or even a below average looking woman is better looking than she is because she has blond hair. Women of course know this and thats why so many dye their hair blond. But personally it doesnt fool me. The only thing with the dark hair/pale skin/blue eyes combo is it doesnt carry well as a person ages so many women with that colouring dye their hair blond as they age.

I agree. I like blonde women as much as the next man, but some of the best looking girls I have ever seen had dark hair and dark eyes.

It's the face, not the complexion and the hair color.

ceribell
02-09-2021, 01:24 AM
Dark eyes/dark skin is so very common...kinda boring.
I always thought that dark hair with a pale complexion and green/ blue eyes a very attractive combination for males as well as for females.
Coloring ones hair after a certain age looks harsh and unnatural. Unless you have very good skin it is difficult to pull off.

Luso
02-09-2021, 04:27 AM
I have dark skin, dark eyes, and dark hair :beerchug:

Azbuzz
02-09-2021, 09:15 PM
I have dark skin, dark eyes, and dark hair :beerchug:

Same coloring as well.

alan
02-10-2021, 02:00 AM
Im just very boring typical Irish/British mid brown hair, fair skin, blue eyes. Probably describes over 50% of the population. As with so many I started a very pale yellow blond and went mousey by about 7, mid brown by 10 and kind of stayed that way although it lost its slight golden tint in middle age. My beard (the non grey bits) is also brown but a slightly lighter slightly warmer shade than my head hair. Im lucky in that ive inherited by mum's trait of thick (has a slight wave if grown) hair that only greys very slowly.

alan
02-10-2021, 02:03 AM
I agree. I like blonde women as much as the next man, but some of the best looking girls I have ever seen had dark hair and dark eyes.

It's the face, not the complexion and the hair color.

I may be weird or maybe not but faces attract me more than bodies, assuming neither is nothing too out of the ordinary. I wouldnt be attracted to a woman with a great body if they had harsh or somewhat masculine features.

Luso
02-10-2021, 02:04 AM
Dark eyes/dark skin is so very common...kinda boring.

Yeah, I mean it can be boring but I personally find it can be attractive, why not? But I also find what you describe very cool, and unique and can be equally attractive...

Finn
02-10-2021, 02:18 PM
This thread seems to be about sexual selection and linkage of two alleles, that for blonde hair and blue eyes. Both seem unrelated and to have arisen at different times in different places. Both seem to have spread like wildfire, separately, especially in Northern Europe. Now it appears blondism is washing over areas already having blue eyes, especially at the far corners of Europe. But is this only sexual selection? If these changes had no other selective basis would they be spreading as they are? If this is just sexual selection, why did these changes not spread East into China?

The other issue discussed seems to be infantile blondism. This has obvious advantages for children not getting enough vitamin D or not getting enough food, periodically. This latter point was the condition of the Neanderthals. This may mean infantile depigmentation is very old and just overlies everything else.

Doesn't real linkage have to do with nearby positions on the chromosome? This is not the case for blue eyes and blonde hair, is it? If this is true this is faux linkage at best. Perhaps the most modern expansion of both alleles, out of what is modern Sweden, is just an accidental condition, an accidental faux linkage.


I agree. I like blonde women as much as the next man, but some of the best looking girls I have ever seen had dark hair and dark eyes.

It's the face, not the complexion and the hair color.


I may be weird or maybe not but faces attract me more than bodies, assuming neither is nothing too out of the ordinary. I wouldnt be attracted to a woman with a great body if they had harsh or somewhat masculine features.


The diversity in eye and hair colors in Europe and the development of 'blondism' is in some sense unique.

Eyes and hair are of course important in the facial expression!

I think that must have had a connection with sexual selection. Among the ANE and the SHG there were some signs of 'brighter' colors. But during the Bronze Age there must have been a major switch.

I think that somehow that Steppe Pastoralist (mostly darker eyes hair, but with ANE genes!) meets (or steals) farmer girl (with especially in Funnelbeaker area's some potential genes for lighter features) has played a part. The brightness most have been an attraction, don't blond girls have more oestrogen on average?

I'm always kind of strucked, but it was obviously a societal reality, by the Rigspula of Iceland in which were lighter, brighter features were seen as nobel and beauty and darker features as lower class (thralls) and seen as ugly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADgs%C3%BEula

But in the end that was sexual selection to the extreme.....

xerxez
02-10-2021, 06:06 PM
A long time ago, I took out the statistics of a known dating site (selection on men aged 30 to 50 who declare themselves Caucasian) which allows to identify the physical characteristics declared of the members. The approach has its limits, of course, but it allowed me to see that the inhabitants of Dieppe have the highest rate of clear eyes (blue and gray) in France: 52% against 30% in France, i.e. a rate close to the United Kingdom (55%) but still far from the Scandinavian countries (around 70%). On the other hand, the Bretons have a rate of blue eyes higher than the national average but not very far (between 30 and 35%), how to explain that they are genetically closer to the English? Could the "low" rate of clear eyes among the Bretons despite their strong genetic proximity to the English be due to the fact that the share of clear eyes has increased over the last millennia by sexual selection in the British Isles?

The share of blue eyes is very close to Scandinavian Countries (around 70%) in Northern Netherlands (around 65%).

Curious to hear your opinion on these figures from statements.
On the part of blue and gray eyes:
-The table: https://imgur.com/M2XTGLv

-The smoothed map: https://imgur.com/rVAyzyM

DFSTFD
02-10-2021, 06:33 PM
A long time ago, I took out the statistics of a known dating site (selection on men aged 30 to 50 who declare themselves Caucasian) which allows to identify the physical characteristics declared of the members. The approach has its limits, of course, but it allowed me to see that the inhabitants of Dieppe have the highest rate of clear eyes (blue and gray) in France: 52% against 30% in France, i.e. a rate close to the United Kingdom (55%) but still far from the Scandinavian countries (around 70%). On the other hand, the Bretons have a rate of blue eyes higher than the national average but not very far (between 30 and 35%), how to explain that they are genetically closer to the English? Could the "low" rate of clear eyes among the Bretons despite their strong genetic proximity to the English be due to the fact that the share of clear eyes has increased over the last millennia by sexual selection in the British Isles?

The share of blue eyes is very close to Scandinavian Countries (around 70%) in Northern Netherlands (around 65%).

Curious to hear your opinion on these figures from statements.
On the part of blue and gray eyes:
-The table: https://imgur.com/M2XTGLv

-The smoothed map: https://imgur.com/rVAyzyM

Taking that for granted for the sake of discussion, it might not be solely average deep ancestry, which is starting to appear a bit misleading on its own if we go by ancient data, or even solely in situ selection at play but also recent ancestry derived from other areas that happened to have a high frequency of those features for their own reason during the period of migration? As a hypothetical example (which might be relevant for those regions), if you have greater recent Scandinavian-related ancestry, which would resemble "northern Atlantic" ancestry in the grand scheme of things, in some area and that happened to be associated with greater frequencies during that period you might end up with greater frequencies in a population that's the result of more Scandinavian + something more southern than a population that's overall more purely "northern Atlantic".

Finn
02-10-2021, 07:15 PM
A long time ago, I took out the statistics of a known dating site (selection on men aged 30 to 50 who declare themselves Caucasian) which allows to identify the physical characteristics declared of the members. The approach has its limits, of course, but it allowed me to see that the inhabitants of Dieppe have the highest rate of clear eyes (blue and gray) in France: 52% against 30% in France, i.e. a rate close to the United Kingdom (55%) but still far from the Scandinavian countries (around 70%). On the other hand, the Bretons have a rate of blue eyes higher than the national average but not very far (between 30 and 35%), how to explain that they are genetically closer to the English? Could the "low" rate of clear eyes among the Bretons despite their strong genetic proximity to the English be due to the fact that the share of clear eyes has increased over the last millennia by sexual selection in the British Isles?

The share of blue eyes is very close to Scandinavian Countries (around 70%) in Northern Netherlands (around 65%).

Curious to hear your opinion on these figures from statements.
On the part of blue and gray eyes:
-The table: https://imgur.com/M2XTGLv

-The smoothed map: https://imgur.com/rVAyzyM


Nice info!
Is the relative higher blue/grey in Dieppe not due to some Viking and or Saxon influence? Or is this too far fetched.

And I guess there was not a different kind of sexual selection or beauty norm between Normandy and Bretagne.

East England got a contingent Saxons and Jutes of course....

Northern Gemany seems to be lower in blue/grey eyes than Denmark and or North Dutch....remarkable.

WHG (Loschbour, Luxembourg, La Brana Spain) already had blue eyes, like many neolithic so may be this doesn't follow always 'Germanic spread'.

Just some thoughts.

PS I have read somewhere that more darkish features in NW Europe had a link with old HG, is this a meme?

xerxez
02-10-2021, 07:41 PM
Nice info!
Is the relative higher blue/grey in Dieppe not due to some Viking and or Saxon influence? Or is this too far fetched.

And I guess there was not a different kind of sexual selection or beauty norm between Normandy and Bretagne.

East England got a contingent Saxons and Jutes of course....

Northern Gemany seems to be lower in blue/grey eyes than Denmark and or North Dutch....remarkable.

WHG (Loschbour, Luxembourg, La Brana Spain) already had blue eyes, like many neolithic so may be this doesn't follow always 'Germanic spread'.

Just some thoughts.

PS I have read somewhere that more darkish features in NW Europe had a link with old HG, is this a meme?


I think like you that it could be the Viking/Saxon influence for Dieppe

For the difference between Northern Germany and Northern Netherlands, could it not be due to migrations between southern and northern germany ? Do we have G25 coordinates of northern germans to compare them with northern dutch like you or Elske ?

Interesting for the more darkish features, I don't know. More basically, I would think that it's the EEF influence but I'm not expert

Finn
02-10-2021, 08:05 PM
double

Finn
02-10-2021, 08:06 PM
I think like you that it could be the Viking/Saxon influence for Dieppe

For the difference between Northern Germany and Northern Netherlands, could it not be due to migrations between southern and northern germany ? Do we have G25 coordinates of northern germans to compare them with northern dutch like you or Elske ?

Interesting for the more darkish features, I don't know. More basically, I would think that it's the EEF influence but I'm not expert

In G25 is unfortunately only split in German and East-German. Lukasz has Niedersachsen samples in his K36 analysis. In this analysis I'm mostly Niedersachsen....
43205
Nevertheless brown eyes....:biggrin1:

About Northern Germany, this population got more shake ups from the thirty years war to ww2....

xerxez
02-10-2021, 08:12 PM
G25 is unfortunately only split in German and East-German. Lukasz has Niedersachsen samples in his K36 analysis. In this analysis I'm mostly Niedersachsen....
43205
Nevertheless brown eyes....:biggrin1:

About Northern Germany, this population got more shake ups from the thirty years war to ww2....

Very interesting. On your g25 you're more "continental" than Elske. What would be the results for Elske on K36 Lukasz NMonte test ? Lukasz K36 tables with more population samples are available somewhere ?

Edit : i find this pca which shows niedersachsen are really close to northern dutch and Scandinavian :https://i0.wp.com/mpbritt.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/K36-PCA-with-AncestryDNA-Data.png?ssl=1

Finn
02-10-2021, 08:37 PM
Very interesting. On your g25 you're more "continental" than Elske. What would be the results for Elske on K36 Lukasz NMonte test ? Lukasz K36 tables with more population samples are available somewhere ?

Edit : i find this pca which shows niedersachsen are really close to northern dutch and Scandinavian :https://i0.wp.com/mpbritt.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/K36-PCA-with-AncestryDNA-Data.png?ssl=1

May be:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15782-NEW-Poi-s-K36-nMonte-Runner-(PCA-based)-using-my-spreadsheet-with-more-than-600-pops

homunculus
02-10-2021, 10:01 PM
I'm always kind of strucked, but it was obviously a societal reality, by the Rigspula of Iceland in which were lighter, brighter features were seen as nobel and beauty and darker features as lower class (thralls) and seen as ugly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADgs%C3%BEula

But in the end that was sexual selection to the extreme.....
I would be a bit hesitant to put all of blondism under sexual selection. Certainly, light features becoming associated with nobility through Indo-European (later germanic) chieftains picking up the blonde wives will drive the selection towards blondism in the whole society when poor men "can't afford" blonde wives and dark features become associated with poverty and low status both socially and on a concrete biological level as blondism "accumulates" in the more wealthy and healthy parts of the society. Nonetheless, blondism does heavily correlate with the northernmost farming societies during the metal ages, up to the industrial revolution. Even in Finland, where poverty has been the all-encompassing reality for most of the population for hundreds or even thousands of years, blondism (and light eyes) have occurred in the absolute majority of the population, regardless of class. Only in non-farmer cultures like the Sami, dark features have been more common. So I would still stick to the assumption that blonde hair has a selective advantage beyond, or at least in addition to sexual selection. I don't know if it has a skin lightening effect, or does it let UV light to be absorbed better via the scalp. That at least would probably give a selective advantage to expectant mothers since D-vitamin is critical to the developing baby (and iirc women's skin also lightens during pregnancy, though I might be wrong on that one.)

J Man
02-11-2021, 04:00 PM
For me it is facial features/shape on a woman that is attractive to me. The coloring is secondary. I have seen very beautiful women of all hues and colors. I am a bit more partial to women with skin that can tan easily or are a bit darker skin tonned but I have seen many beautiful pale women as well. There are also many very beautiful dark skinned women. The shape and features of the face are the main things.

Finn
02-11-2021, 04:21 PM
I would be a bit hesitant to put all of blondism under sexual selection. Certainly, light features becoming associated with nobility through Indo-European (later germanic) chieftains picking up the blonde wives will drive the selection towards blondism in the whole society when poor men "can't afford" blonde wives and dark features become associated with poverty and low status both socially and on a concrete biological level as blondism "accumulates" in the more wealthy and healthy parts of the society. Nonetheless, blondism does heavily correlate with the northernmost farming societies during the metal ages, up to the industrial revolution. Even in Finland, where poverty has been the all-encompassing reality for most of the population for hundreds or even thousands of years, blondism (and light eyes) have occurred in the absolute majority of the population, regardless of class. Only in non-farmer cultures like the Sami, dark features have been more common. So I would still stick to the assumption that blonde hair has a selective advantage beyond, or at least in addition to sexual selection. I don't know if it has a skin lightening effect, or does it let UV light to be absorbed better via the scalp. That at least would probably give a selective advantage to expectant mothers since D-vitamin is critical to the developing baby (and iirc women's skin also lightens during pregnancy, though I might be wrong on that one.)

Interesting thanks!

What at first could be elite, could be, because of better survival rates, have been spread to other classes than strictly upper class. At least in the Netherlands, but I guess also in other parts of N(W) Europe this was the case and when you trace farm hand families back in history, certainly with all the sidelines, you meet 'karls' and some 'jarls' (chieftains).

When I can trust the site of genetiker, I see that for farming societies the most blond people were the farmers of the Peloponnesus Greece! Ok ex equo with Funnelbeaker Sweden. But Blatterhohle NW Germany was more darkish. Blatterhohle resembles more Narva Baltic HG with dark/black hair and blue/grey eyes!

Greece EEF
43219

Sweden TRB
43222

NW Germany MN
43220

Narva Baltic HG
43221



I don't really know what would be the advantage of light skin and hairs in a farmers; especially in the farmers people are, especially in summer (during the harvest!) exposed to the sun. I remember my grandfather an old cotter who had a very tanned skin. Light skin, what often goes together with higher risk for skin cancer, is in farming people a such a disadvantage.

Somehow I can't see the 'logic' yet......still wondering.

Finn
02-11-2021, 05:01 PM
I would be a bit hesitant to put all of blondism under sexual selection. Certainly, light features becoming associated with nobility through Indo-European (later germanic) chieftains picking up the blonde wives will drive the selection towards blondism in the whole society when poor men "can't afford" blonde wives and dark features become associated with poverty and low status both socially and on a concrete biological level as blondism "accumulates" in the more wealthy and healthy parts of the society. Nonetheless, blondism does heavily correlate with the northernmost farming societies during the metal ages, up to the industrial revolution. Even in Finland, where poverty has been the all-encompassing reality for most of the population for hundreds or even thousands of years, blondism (and light eyes) have occurred in the absolute majority of the population, regardless of class. Only in non-farmer cultures like the Sami, dark features have been more common. So I would still stick to the assumption that blonde hair has a selective advantage beyond, or at least in addition to sexual selection. I don't know if it has a skin lightening effect, or does it let UV light to be absorbed better via the scalp. That at least would probably give a selective advantage to expectant mothers since D-vitamin is critical to the developing baby (and iirc women's skin also lightens during pregnancy, though I might be wrong on that one.)

So for the discussion: blondism was 'initially' spread in Europe spread by the Neolithic famers, see Peloponnesus Greece and transmitted into Swedish TRB (70-80% EEF).
Blatterhohle MN Germany (40-50% HG) were closer to Narva Baltic HG/ WHG, dark hair and blue eyes.

???

Finn
02-11-2021, 07:50 PM
Could Neolithic Farmer be a possible source of blondism, it looks like.....



Because on the pigmentation section of Genetiker, the people that were high in ENF:

https://i.postimg.cc/13bt25K3/higjh-EEF.png (https://postimg.cc/cvM08Wjp)

All were substantial higher in blond hair than West European HG, Narva Baltic HG and also Motala Scandic HG!

Hungary LCA
https://i.postimg.cc/3RzjSHcM/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-11-om-20-43-05.png (https://postimg.cc/ygXSx2Kn)

Globar Amphora
https://i.postimg.cc/fR69QvvX/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-11-om-20-46-02.png (https://postimg.cc/LJ3XzLw6)

Varna
https://i.postimg.cc/QCr22vFP/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-11-om-20-48-12.png (https://postimg.cc/Pp2VZ3zz)


As lighter skin often goes together with blond hair, it may be no wonder that ENF, known for genes for lighter skin, also is a possible source of blondism (besides others like ENA).

DFSTFD
02-11-2021, 08:13 PM
So for the discussion: blondism was 'initially' spread in Europe spread by the Neolithic famers, see Peloponnesus Greece and transmitted into Swedish TRB (70-80% EEF).
Blatterhohle MN Germany (40-50% HG) were closer to Narva Baltic HG/ WHG, dark hair and blue eyes.

???

The way I3708 and I3709 are described in the supplements of the paper they're from (Mathieson et al. The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe), it sounds like they might even be related (but note the different mtDNA...), though it doesn't look like they tested for that with a cursory re-look (I could be wrong), so it's possible we got lucky enough to see members of the same broader family, rather than representing a purely relative higher frequency in the general population without seeing more samples. As you notice, they're also chronologically later samples, that also exhibit some of the extra CHG that increased even further later on in the area so not exactly the kind of farmers who went up further north earlier.

Interesting results though and in general many ancient West Eurasian populations seem to exhibit the ranges of color we see today (there's a predicted blue-eyed redhead on Genetiker's site in an Iran_N+Levant_N Jordan EBA sample...) but rather inconsistently, until the later Bronze Age for some areas of northern Europe where that consistently fairer phenotype seems to increasingly become the norm. That generalized distribution of it makes it pretty hard to say anything specific yet I think. It is somewhat interesting that the SHG seem to have been lighter than either the WHG and EHG that went into making them, unless somehow the specific sub-groups involved were almost as light as the SHG since the HGs seemed to differ within themselves a good amount too, with a similar process around the eastern Baltic and Scandinavia happening all over again much later on.

Also ANI163 is a problematic sample, described in the Harvard dataset as: "QUESTIONABLE_CRITICAL (literature, but data were later found to lack characteristic ancient DNA damage raising the possibility that contamination explains why this individual appears to be an ancestry outlier". Looked very modern east-central European like when it was still included in G25.

But you're right about "several sources of blondism" I think, at least in the (post-)Mesolithic sense. Not sure if some ur-population might have been a common source before that, like e.g. the small amounts of ANE all West Eurasians seem to have after a point.

homunculus
02-11-2021, 09:52 PM
I don't really know what would be the advantage of light skin and hairs in a farmers; especially in the farmers people are, especially in summer (during the harvest!) exposed to the sun. I remember my grandfather and old cotter who had a very tanned skin. Light skin, what often goes together with higher risk for skin cancer, is in farming people a such a disadvantage.

Somehow I can't see the 'logic' yet......still wondering.

Well, at least a food source, grain products have much less D-vitamin than game and fish, the typical hg diet that is. Steppe pastoralists had included domesticated animal products as a part of their diet, that's probably why they were able to increase their body size compared to the farmers in the West. There is a clear correlation with skin tone in humans and yearly UV radiation, which I can't believe to be just coincidence. The special case with Northern Europe is that people in Scandinavia practice farming at the same latitudes as Greenland, where the Inuit rely on seafood for their vitamin D intake. Since Scandinavia, while being relatively temperate considering its high latitude, is still a damn cold place tbh, people don't get much uv exposure on their bodies, except their head. That's one reason it has been speculated that balding is rather common among older North European males, since vitamin D reduces the risk of prostate cancer and a forehead uncovered with hair is the best place where you would absorb most of the uv light (skin cancer is less of an evolutionary disadvantage at that age). Nonetheless, my guess is that light hair serves a similar purpose. Especially for kids that are growing, vitamin D is really important for bone growth and nordic kids almost exclusively have light hair. Just guessing though, I've always been a bit skeptical of using sexual selection as the primary drive for evolution, I see it usually as a secondary force that amps up the traits that are associated with fitness in a given population.

Finn
02-12-2021, 11:21 AM
Well, at least a food source, grain products have much less D-vitamin than game and fish, the typical hg diet that is. Steppe pastoralists had included domesticated animal products as a part of their diet, that's probably why they were able to increase their body size compared to the farmers in the West. There is a clear correlation with skin tone in humans and yearly UV radiation, which I can't believe to be just coincidence. The special case with Northern Europe is that people in Scandinavia practice farming at the same latitudes as Greenland, where the Inuit rely on seafood for their vitamin D intake. Since Scandinavia, while being relatively temperate considering its high latitude, is still a damn cold place tbh, people don't get much uv exposure on their bodies, except their head. That's one reason it has been speculated that balding is rather common among older North European males, since vitamin D reduces the risk of prostate cancer and a forehead uncovered with hair is the best place where you would absorb most of the uv light (skin cancer is less of an evolutionary disadvantage at that age). Nonetheless, my guess is that light hair serves a similar purpose. Especially for kids that are growing, vitamin D is really important for bone growth and nordic kids almost exclusively have light hair. Just guessing though, I've always been a bit skeptical of using sexual selection as the primary drive for evolution, I see it usually as a secondary force that amps up the traits that are associated with fitness in a given population.

Well it's at least complicated. It's not simply ok this is a Nothern European thing basta. And the two effects (natural selection and sexual selection) can go together. Blondism has probably multiple sources too....Your connection with agricultural lifestyle may have been a big factor, seen the fact that pretty southern EEF influenced cultures had, when the info of genetikers is right, many blond heads

As for sunhours and UV radioton than is the area around the Baltic Sea differentiated from the area around the Isles/ Iceland etc. The Balticum is really quite sunny!
43238

43239

But ok, the Isles have I guess the lightest skin and the most redheads.....

Paul333
02-12-2021, 04:20 PM
My Y haplogroup H2 P96 represents early neolithic farmers, arriving in Europe, and Blonde hair is mostly the colour of our family as far back as I can remember, wonder if there is any trace of farmers surviving in todays look.

My sons shown, are all similar, ( photo years ago on holiday )out of three two have blue eyes and one green, same as my eyes, sometimes they are mistaken for blue, but not sure if they are green or hazel, Eye photograph is of mine showing my eye colour taken today for this thread.

My father was blond and blue eyed, and the eye colour is from my mother who had green eyes.=CONFIG]43247[/ATTACH].

My Brothers were also blond, light haired, and all white haired when very young, one with blue eyes and the other with same as mine.

4324843249 My two eldest lads photos above , showing school photos in their teens, many years ago, my other son went to a different school and never had a school photo taken.

This is typical and common colouring of our family, and also quite a lot of familys in my local area untill very recently.
My Eldest lad on the left is nearly 6' ft, now, and my next oldest on the right 6' 2", my youngest just under 6', but all three taller than me.

homunculus
02-12-2021, 06:59 PM
Well it's at least complicated. It's not simply ok this is a Nothern European thing basta. And the two effects (natural selection and sexual selection) can go together.
But ok, the Isles have I guess the lightest skin and the most redheads.....
There might probably be multiple factors. In places where these different selection pressure coincide we see these traits peak the most. And there's obviously differences in types of blondism. While I would say Finland is the blondest country in the world, it's a very specific type of blondism, the ashen, light brown type. That can be contrasted with Norway for example where the blonde hues are often either quite striking, golden or platinum in shade compared to the more mousy hues in the east.

As for the red hair in the Isles, I'd say that's even a bigger mystery. I think none of the Bronze Age samples from Britain contain a hint of red hair (unless I've missed something from Genetiker's tables. Since red hair peaks among Udmurts (who despite their language are very Yamnaya as far as genetics go) one would assume that it spread via the Corded Ware and Yamnaya expansions. But it's still a mystery how and when it got to the Isles. But it's apparent success might have been due to the lack of blondism genes before the norse and germanic arrival to the Isles or because there was even greater selective pressure for depigmentation compared to the continent. Since Caledonians were considered the most red-haired of them all, it would be interesting to get our hands on the viking era genes of the few fully celtic orcadians that got analyzed and see how that matches with the historical accounts.

Finn
02-12-2021, 07:19 PM
There might probably be multiple factors. In places where these different selection pressure coincide we see these traits peak the most. And there's obviously differences in types of blondism. While I would say Finland is the blondest country in the world, it's a very specific type of blondism, the ashen, light brown type. That can be contrasted with Norway for example where the blonde hues are often either quite striking, golden or platinum in shade compared to the more mousy hues in the east.

As for the red hair in the Isles, I'd say that's even a bigger mystery. I think none of the Bronze Age samples from Britain contain a hint of red hair (unless I've missed something from Genetiker's tables. Since red hair peaks among Udmurts (who despite their language are very Yamnaya as far as genetics go) one would assume that it spread via the Corded Ware and Yamnaya expansions. But it's still a mystery how and when it got to the Isles. But it's apparent success might have been due to the lack of blondism genes before the norse and germanic arrival to the Isles or because there was even greater selective pressure for depigmentation compared to the continent. Since Caledonians were considered the most red-haired of them all, it would be interesting to get our hands on the viking era genes of the few fully celtic orcadians that got analyzed and see how that matches with the historical accounts.

I guess the Bell Beakers could have spread it to the isles. The Isles are in some sense 'the place to be' for red haired, because they are the most vulnerable for skin cancer, and the sun hours on the Isles are among the least in Europe....

I'm from the 'NW Bell Beaker heartland' and guess what I have also a red head SNP. My hair has a light red touch. But I guess pheomelanin is also responsible for a more warm or goldblond hair, that is typical for outmost NW Europe I guess.

Finn
02-12-2021, 07:33 PM
My Y haplogroup H2 P96 represents early neolithic farmers, arriving in Europe, and Blonde hair is mostly the colour of our family as far back as I can remember, wonder if there is any trace of farmers surviving in todays look.

My sons shown, are all similar, ( photo years ago on holiday )out of three two have blue eyes and one green, same as my eyes, sometimes they are mistaken for blue, but not sure if they are green or hazel, Eye photograph is of mine showing my eye colour taken today for this thread.

My father was blond and blue eyed, and the eye colour is from my mother who had green eyes.=CONFIG]43247[/ATTACH].

My Brothers were also blond, light haired, and all white haired when very young, one with blue eyes and the other with same as mine.

4324843249 My two eldest lads photos above , showing school photos in their teens, many years ago, my other son went to a different school and never had a school photo taken, This is typical and common colouring of our family, and also quite a lot of familys in my local area untill very recently.

Nice pics, typical English!
I guess a direct Neolithic heritage, that change is small.....

Blond hair is indeed typical for my region too (about 80%), here is a phot my cousin, grandfather and I the little one....bad picture quality, but clearly light gold blond (at that time):
https://i.postimg.cc/pynjPLVZ/Dolle.png (https://postimg.cc/pynjPLVZ)

Olymp
02-12-2021, 08:01 PM
All of my northern french family are brunette or dark chesnut (only a minority is blond or dark blond with blues eyes). All have mixed eyes (some chesnut eyes, some dark or medium brown). It's the same thing for my french ancestries...

It is a typical pigmentation for the village where my French ancestors (Picard) come from, which are small villages.

Difficult to say if it comes from the Neolithic, Indo-European or WHG, because all three could give the same result, so I avoid hasty pseudo-scientific conclusions (blondness being a recent thing which was already very rare among the Yamnayas and WHGs, like lactose tolerance, this subsequently spread via selective pressure as well explained by Tom from SurviveTheJive in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eahGL7HyMRM )

alan
02-12-2021, 08:25 PM
Blondism seems to be very related to age too. Even in not very blond adult populations in Ireland and Britain, if you have kids in the nursery you cant help notice a large majority of pre-school infants are very blond. But a lot of them have turned too light brown by age 6 or so and mid brown by around 8 or 9. So, something flicks a switch in these populations. There is a classical reference that Gaulish children are born with white hair but gradually attain the colour of their parents. That suggests a similar very isles-like traits of gradual shift from very blond to mid brown between infancy and early teens. Im pretty sure that adult blondism was considered attractive subconsciously as a youth indicator in women. Is adult blondism not a form of neoteny? i.e. the persistence of typical children's pigmentation into adulthood. Other features considered attractive in females like big eyes, small noses, red lips are also clearly the persistence of features typical of children.

Pylsteen
02-12-2021, 08:41 PM
Blondism seems to be very related to age too.

It also becomes darker with brown hair; I was medium-dark brown in my youth, now it is pure chocolate/dark coffee (I wouldn't say black, since it lacks that "blue" shine), I lack the genes for blondism.

Edit: it seems 23.and.Me does give me a few minor blond genes, but those have less impact.

alan
02-12-2021, 09:01 PM
Ive always considered classical references to blondism as a relative thing anyway. In some cultures where very dark hair is the norm, mid brown is considered blond.Same with height. Medium sized people look tall if you are from an area full of short people. I suspect the typical Gaul was probably medium in height, with medium brown hair colour and relatively fair skin typical of central to north-west Atlantic Europeans but that seemed tall, blond and pale to Romans of that era who were typically south Italian shifted with a lot of Aegean input.

Riverman
02-12-2021, 09:35 PM
It also becomes darker with brown hair; I was medium-dark brown in my youth, now it is pure chocolate/dark coffee (I wouldn't say black, since it lacks that "blue" shine), I lack the genes for blondism.

Are you sure you lack it? Because I made a superficial analysis and its rather I have some and lack others, which, in my opinion, seems to be the norm for those starting light haired but getting darker while growing up. For example, in some German speaking areas where the adults are not that light haired at all, among very young children up to kindergarten age, all darker haired ones stick out. It really fans out with every year. Some stay light, others get darker. Some even start lighter, but get darker faster, while others start somewhat darker, but it stays stable. There are strange recombination of genes for hair color at work and there is also UV-related lightening, which most of my family has. So if we would live in Greece, going swimming often, being exposed to salt water and UV radiation, we all would be significantly lighter haired than we are, especially during the winter months.

I don't think the Celts were as dark, but I trust the descriptions, which are pretty clear: They had a significant amount of natural blondism, but they were mixed, so they harboured a whole range of hair colors, pretty much just like modern Northern and Eastern French I'd say. I also think that much of Gaul became significantly darker, as did Italia, though probably the shift was not as pronounced, in the Roman Imperial era. There was a significant influx of people from the Mediterranean in particular, but also the Levante and Near East. And fact is, light coloration of eyes and hair is subdominant, so even a moderate admixture will result in darkening. However, because of the Germanic migration some of this was reverted and so I my guess is that modern Northern French and Northern Italians pretty much ended were they were before, but not because they are exactly the same people, but because they received to admixtures which largely balanced each other out.

Pylsteen
02-12-2021, 10:34 PM
Are you sure you lack it?

I have never been lighter than medium/dark brown, although I see that I do have a few blond genes in 23andme, although not many; the probabilities they give are 1% light blond, 6% dark blond, 25% medium brown, 61% dark brown and 7% black. And now I think about it, my sibling started out as dark blond and is now medium/dark brown, like my grandfather. I have to go back to my great-grandparents to actually find (dark) blonds who retained that colour, most were quite dark brown.

Olymp
02-13-2021, 02:55 AM
Ive always considered classical references to blondism as a relative thing anyway. In some cultures where very dark hair is the norm, mid brown is considered blond.Same with height. Medium sized people look tall if you are from an area full of short people. I suspect the typical Gaul was probably medium in height, with medium brown hair colour and relatively fair skin typical of central to north-west Atlantic Europeans but that seemed tall, blond and pale to Romans of that era who were typically south Italian shifted with a lot of Aegean input.

Republican romans was not really "southern italian", but Imperial Roman, yeah kind off.

I still prefer to rely on genetics rather than old literature when it comes to pigmentation.

As I prefer the military archives (with physical description) rather than the own description of a third person who is less familiar with differentiating such a color from another color, to tell me what is the pigmentation of 'one of my ancestors. I am a follower of French taxonomy with regard to pigmentation, so that unlike Anglo-Saxon taxonomy which confuses "dark/medium brown" and "dark chestnut", I admit the existence of several shades of color and try to 'put words on it, rather than simplifying everything to "brown" and "blonde", and "brown eyes" and "blue eyes".

It should also be taken into account that most of the black and white photos do not allow to know the pigmentation of the person (unless you are very light blond with very light blue eyes, often people appear more "dark" than in reality). Even polaroid are not a good thing to know the pigmentation of your ancestor.

About the height, it depends on the time, the family, the village, etc. So many parameters to take into account.

Besides, honestly: the average height in the North of France was 1.65 (more or less) in the 19th century, currently it would be (if we only count the natives with no other origin) 1.77 / 78; people would therefore have gained in centimeters (12 / 13cm) but lost in robustness (the features of native people are more graceful compared to their ancestor, a greater preponderance of obesity, etc.). That's what I see in people in my family: their ancestors are more robust (I'm not talking about a square jaw or those things, but a robust, rough face) than them.

To come back to pigmentation, I could quote here the traits of my ancestors based on military archive (with compulsory military service from the age of 20, at the time throughout France):

Chesnut (not brown) eyes, dark chesnut hair, 1.67 (1906);
Blue eyes, dark blonde hair, 1.56 (1889);
Gray-brown (not chesnut) eyes, chestnut hair, 1.62 (1888);
Gray eyes, "black chesnut" hair, 1.61 (1885);
Light blue eyes, chesnut hair, 1.66 (1879)
Gray eyes, blond hair, 1.69 (1876);
Gray eyes, brown (not chesnut) hair, 1.60 (1874);
Gray eyes, chesnut hair, 1.63 (1861);
Blue eyes, chesnut hair, 1.68 (1852);
Gray eyes, chesnut hair, 1.67 (1848);

Sometimes there is no "continuity" in terms of pigmentation. Simple example: my father (born in 1958, 1,67/68) has dark or medium brown eyes (although one eye seems to have some kind of heterochromia, but not sure because he's A;A) with dark brown hair (but maybe "chesnut" before), his paternal grandfather had chesnut eyes (a shade lighter than plain dark or medium brown) with dark chesnut hair, while his great-grandfather (still paternal) had gray eyes and blond hair.

My father's paternal grandfather's brother (1906) is described as having blue eyes and blond hair for 1.71 height (1899).

My Paternal Grandfather's Mother was described by a cousin (who knew him) as strongly resembling her mother (who is a half-sister to my paternal grandfather's mother) , even in terms of pigmentation: almost black hair, very dark eyes.

Regarding my maternal grandfather (born in 1925), who is of Sardinian origin (totally), he is described as having dark brown eyes (not chestnut) and brown hair (not black, but brown, it's very precise at this time), with a height of 1.70. The rest is described as follows:
Front: medium
Straight nose
Oval face

My maternal grandmother, who is French (mostly from northern France), had dark chesnut hair and brown or green eyes (one cousin said brown, another said green). My mother inherited a positive A and negative G allele, which results in A; G, and this sometimes results in hazel eyes (which my mother, my sister, one of my brothers, and other, have). So either my mother's mother had hazel eyes, or her sardinian father, although dark brown eyes, was also A;G (so a positive allele for brown eyes and another negative) but not "expressed", or the two were A; G. My mother's brother had light blue eyes.

It's him here (brother of my mother; face shape and baldness is father, and some features are from mother and father too; very "french", he doesn't "outlier" in terms of appearance compared to my French ancestors and cousin, but his father himself didn't appear to be an outlier at this level - facial features, i means):
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/720x720q90/r/923/9T2DqN.jpg

I had a sample of an acquaintance, half Breton (from the west) and central France, who is A;G but whose eyes may appear dark brown or medium ... So it's a possible combination (genetics are complex, after all).

xerxez
02-13-2021, 05:52 AM
Republican romans was not really "southern italian", but Imperial Roman, yeah kind off.

I still prefer to rely on genetics rather than old literature when it comes to pigmentation.

As I prefer the military archives (with physical description) rather than the own description of a third person who is less familiar with differentiating such a color from another color, to tell me what is the pigmentation of 'one of my ancestors. I am a follower of French taxonomy with regard to pigmentation, so that unlike Anglo-Saxon taxonomy which confuses "dark/medium brown" and "dark chestnut", I admit the existence of several shades of color and try to 'put words on it, rather than simplifying everything to "brown" and "blonde", and "brown eyes" and "blue eyes".

It should also be taken into account that most of the black and white photos do not allow to know the pigmentation of the person (unless you are very light blond with very light blue eyes, often people appear more "dark" than in reality). Even polaroid are not a good thing to know the pigmentation of your ancestor.

About the height, it depends on the time, the family, the village, etc. So many parameters to take into account.

Besides, honestly: the average height in the North of France was 1.65 (more or less) in the 19th century, currently it would be (if we only count the natives with no other origin) 1.77 / 78; people would therefore have gained in centimeters (12 / 13cm) but lost in robustness (the features of native people are more graceful compared to their ancestor, a greater preponderance of obesity, etc.). That's what I see in people in my family: their ancestors are more robust (I'm not talking about a square jaw or those things, but a robust, rough face) than them.

To come back to pigmentation, I could quote here the traits of my ancestors based on military archive (with compulsory military service from the age of 20, at the time throughout France):

Chesnut (not brown) eyes, dark chesnut hair, 1.67 (1906);
Blue eyes, dark blonde hair, 1.56 (1889);
Gray-brown (not chesnut) eyes, chestnut hair, 1.62 (1888);
Gray eyes, "black chesnut" hair, 1.61 (1885);
Light blue eyes, chesnut hair, 1.66 (1879)
Gray eyes, blond hair, 1.69 (1876);
Gray eyes, brown (not chesnut) hair, 1.60 (1874);
Gray eyes, chesnut hair, 1.63 (1861);
Blue eyes, chesnut hair, 1.68 (1852);
Gray eyes, chesnut hair, 1.67 (1848);

Sometimes there is no "continuity" in terms of pigmentation. Simple example: my father (born in 1958, 1,67/68) has dark or medium brown eyes (although one eye seems to have some kind of heterochromia, but not sure because he's A;A) with dark brown hair (but maybe "chesnut" before), his paternal grandfather had chesnut eyes (a shade lighter than plain dark or medium brown) with dark chesnut hair, while his great-grandfather (still paternal) had gray eyes and blond hair.

My father's paternal grandfather's brother (1906) is described as having blue eyes and blond hair for 1.71 height (1899).

My Paternal Grandfather's Mother was described by a cousin (who knew him) as strongly resembling her mother (who is a half-sister to my paternal grandfather's mother) , even in terms of pigmentation: almost black hair, very dark eyes.

Regarding my maternal grandfather (born in 1925), who is of Sardinian origin (totally), he is described as having dark brown eyes (not chestnut) and brown hair (not black, but brown, it's very precise at this time), with a height of 1.70. The rest is described as follows:
Front: medium
Straight nose
Oval face

My maternal grandmother, who is French (mostly from northern France), had dark chesnut hair and brown or green eyes (one cousin said brown, another said green). My mother inherited a positive A and negative G allele, which results in A; G, and this sometimes results in hazel eyes (which my mother, my sister, one of my brothers, and other, have). So either my mother's mother had hazel eyes, or her sardinian father, although dark brown eyes, was also A;G (so a positive allele for brown eyes and another negative) but not "expressed", or the two were A; G. My mother's brother had light blue eyes.

It's him here (brother of my mother; face shape and baldness is father, and some features are from mother and father too; very "french", he doesn't "outlier" in terms of appearance compared to my French ancestors and cousin, but his father himself didn't appear to be an outlier at this level - facial features, i means):
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/720x720q90/r/923/9T2DqN.jpg

I had a sample of an acquaintance, half Breton (from the west) and central France, who is A;G but whose eyes may appear dark brown or medium ... So it's a possible combination (genetics are complex, after all).

Great work. How do you get these military archives for your ancestors ?

Finn
02-13-2021, 06:45 AM
To come back to pigmentation, I could quote here the traits of my ancestors based on military archive (with compulsory military service from the age of 20, at the time throughout France):

Chesnut (not brown) eyes, dark chesnut hair, 1.67 (1906);
Blue eyes, dark blonde hair, 1.56 (1889);
Gray-brown (not chesnut) eyes, chestnut hair, 1.62 (1888);
Gray eyes, "black chesnut" hair, 1.61 (1885);
Light blue eyes, chesnut hair, 1.66 (1879)
Gray eyes, blond hair, 1.69 (1876);
Gray eyes, brown (not chesnut) hair, 1.60 (1874);
Gray eyes, chesnut hair, 1.63 (1861);
Blue eyes, chesnut hair, 1.68 (1852);
Gray eyes, chesnut hair, 1.67 (1848);



Wow impressive indeed (I must have some results of that kind too....but where did I left it ;)
One thing intrigues me, 'chestnut not brown'. I have chestnut colored eyes, that's not dark brown but still....why didn't they see it s brown? Is that the eye of the beholder in the Netherland it would be called brown...

Olymp
02-13-2021, 09:51 AM
Wow impressive indeed (I must have some results of that kind too....but where did I left it ;)
One thing intrigues me, 'chestnut not brown'. I have chestnut colored eyes, that's not dark brown but still....why didn't they see it s brown? Is that the eye of the beholder in the Netherland it would be called brown...

It depends on the country, in France we distinguish between chestnut (dark and light) and brown (dark and medium shade)

Here is a page in French, but the English translation proposes the word "brown" instead of châtain (chesnut), which makes us confuse
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2tain

On "black hair": "It may sound surprising, but black hair is actually a deep brown. The mixtures of textures and undertones make it look black but, if you look at it under a microscope, you realize that it is actually a dark brown!"

We must come back to the term itself: "The word "maroon" derives from the French marron, meaning chestnut. "Brown is a dark brownish red or dark reddish color" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon

You could say that the word "brown" is basically a synonym for chestnut hair in France, except that most people who have spoken to me about "brown hair" have often cited a color that is closer to pseudo-black hair (like japanese hair color) than to the definition of "brown" which comes from "Chestnut" (the fruit of the chestnut tree). So we can say that the meaning of the word has been deviated: instead of using the word "brown hair" to denote this color (and shades):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Aesculus.jpg/1280px-Aesculus.jpg


They used the word "brown" to denote this kind of color (more or less)
https://photos-us.bazaarvoice.com/photo/2/cGhvdG86Z2Fybmllcg/2b123ad8-ee1b-5edc-a087-9050d30732e4
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c6fa967362dc96af92a7ee39955c28f5.webp

Two pictures are far from "dark brownish red or dark reddish color".

Real chesnut hair (or "brown" from "marron" = chesnut); his hair color is closer to the color of a chestnut (the fruit), compared to the two photos (which are closer to the color black or pseudo-black):
https://file1.closermag.fr/var/closermag/storage/images/bio-people/biographie-ben-barnes-112638/823820-1-fre-FR/Ben-Barnes.jpg?alias=square500x500&size=x100&format=jpeg

We say that the color brown is a spectrum, but basically the word comes from the fruit "chestnut" and you can type "chestnut" on Google image: you can not find any chestnut whose color is very close or identical to the two photos above. The color of most chestnuts has a visible color "dark reddish", in the sun or outside light, which is impossible to mistake for black, however the two photos above could be mistaken for black hair, even in exposure to sunlight or natural light from the outside.

Dark chesnut hair may appear darker when there is no natural light (although in general even with a lamp you can distinguish the color), but in natural light or sunlightit is impossible to confuse this color with a color approaching black.


Most people with dark chesnut hair will sometimes (when they are men, but even some women) put hairstyling products in their hair, which tends to darken the color.

This is why sometimes we think that such and such a person has darker hair than the beard (or of a different color), while sometimes this is not the case: the person has simply combed his hair with products (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairstyling_product)

For example, with hairstyling product (also a bad picture can give you a wrong perception of the color)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/5e/0a/c85e0a26b0f7d65dcfadd4ae635a8780.jpg

Without (kind of amber hair with a more "redbeard", but not dark brown hair, the contrast is less striking)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/96/86/a29686fd9365a5ce830057d4407065c3.jpg

There are more men who use styling products which darken their true natural hair color, than men with a different hair and beard color. It's very rare for a person with almost black hair to have a red beard or blond beard.

It's less rare to see a person with dark/light chesnut hair or auburn with a lighter beard.

Tribute to a great Frenchman who "studied colors" (if we can put it that way): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Eug%C3%A8ne_Chevreul

Finn
02-13-2021, 04:14 PM
It depends on the country, in France we distinguish between chestnut (dark and light) and brown (dark and medium shade)

Here is a page in French, but the English translation proposes the word "brown" instead of châtain (chesnut), which makes us confuse
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2tain


We must come back to the term itself: "The word "maroon" derives from the French marron, meaning chestnut. "Brown is a dark brownish red or dark reddish color" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon



Thanks for this exposé Olymp.

Indeed redbrown, I recognize that, see this (admitted bad) picture:
43266

Olymp
02-14-2021, 02:59 AM
Thanks for this exposé Olymp.

Indeed redbrown, I recognize that, see this (admitted bad) picture:
43266

It's a color (blackish brown) that comes closer to black, at least virtually

But if you want an eye color that approaches chestnut (albeit slightly more yellowish), here is one of my eye:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/545x480q90/r/924/Af1heq.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/552x480q90/r/924/rNFXuR.jpg

It is a color which is quite present in France, one could say that it is very close to the meaning that the word "marron" ("brown" in english) had at the base (close to the color of the chestnut fruit), even if I would not say "brown" if I had to describe my color to an unknown person (not having my eyes in front) due to the word meaning deviation, which is generally applied for colors closer to black (most people understand it this way when you say you have brown eyes = color closer to black than the bright color of chestnut fruit).

Finn
02-14-2021, 10:16 AM
It's a color (blackish brown) that comes closer to black, at least virtually

But if you want an eye color that approaches chestnut (albeit slightly more yellowish), here is one of my eye:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/545x480q90/r/924/Af1heq.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/552x480q90/r/924/rNFXuR.jpg


It is a color which is quite present in France, one could say that it is very close to the meaning that the word "marron" ("brown" in english) had at the base (close to the color of the chestnut fruit), even if I would not say "brown" if I had to describe my color to an unknown person (not having my eyes in front) due to the word meaning deviation, which is generally applied for colors closer to black (most people understand it this way when you say you have brown eyes = color closer to black than the bright color of chestnut fruit).

Seems like that perception plays indeed a part. Because I would say that's something amber/honey. In my case I get such color ones when the opticien made a picture with lots of light!

But usual I have the color that is described here as chestnut:
https://i.postimg.cc/RZNbW73g/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-14-om-11-10-26.png (https://postimages.org/)

Olymp
02-14-2021, 10:39 AM
Seems like that perception plays indeed a part. Because I would say that's something amber/honey. In my case I get such color ones when the opticien made a picture with lots of light!

But usual I have the color that is described here as chestnut:


Perception can play a role, but in general anyone can distinguish between a color closer to black than to a color found in chestnut fruit, it is visually very differentiable. But there are people who are indifferent to it. In addition in France, at the time, the term "yeux noisettes" was widely used, even the term "chestnut" was also used (for proof even the military files of the 1940s use the term "chestnut")

On the first row from left to right:
1. "hazel" (mixture of colors, including chestnut, a little yellow, then "beige" green),
2. "blackish medium brown" color approaching (we can distinguish the pupil, so it is not yet dark) with a little dark green;
3. Deep black brown, visually black;
4. Chestnut tending to yellowish, we can also name this color "amber" because there is a yellowish tint which is not in the eyes simply chestnut.

On the second row from left to right:
1. Photo of poor quality, so difficult to say;
2. Similar to the "darkish deep brown" eye, it is a color that can hardly be differentiated from black, it is often with a macro photo of very good quality that we succeed to differentiated the color;
3. dark "reddish brown" (we can distinguish the pupil from the iris, but the color could appear darker, almost black, than in the image when we are not very close to the person with that eye color), if the person had that eye color in hair, then it looks like dark red.

Olymp
02-14-2021, 11:57 AM
Great work. How do you get these military archives for your ancestors ?

French archives available online!

If you have recents French ancestors, I could help you find some of them.

Finn
02-14-2021, 01:12 PM
Perception can play a role, but in general anyone can distinguish between a color closer to black than to a color found in chestnut fruit, it is visually very differentiable. But there are people who are indifferent to it. In addition in France, at the time, the term "yeux noisettes" was widely used, even the term "chestnut" was also used (for proof even the military files of the 1940s use the term "chestnut")

On the first row from left to right:
1. "hazel" (mixture of colors, including chestnut, a little yellow, then "beige" green),
2. "blackish medium brown" color approaching (we can distinguish the pupil, so it is not yet dark) with a little dark green;
3. Deep black brown, visually black;
4. Chestnut tending to yellowish, we can also name this color "amber" because there is a yellowish tint which is not in the eyes simply chestnut.

On the second row from left to right:
1. Photo of poor quality, so difficult to say;
2. Similar to the "darkish deep brown" eye, it is a color that can hardly be differentiated from black, it is often with a macro photo of very good quality that we succeed to differentiated the color;
3. dark "reddish brown" (we can distinguish the pupil from the iris, but the color could appear darker, almost black, than in the image when we are not very close to the person with that eye color), if the person had that eye color in hair, then it looks like dark red.

Light makes a difference, it's freezing weather here so I took a snapshot standing close to te window in the full sun et le voila!

https://i.postimg.cc/hGDdpBxv/oog-Finn.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Wdyz1x5c)

xerxez
02-14-2021, 03:07 PM
French archives available online!

If you have recents French ancestors, I could help you find some of them.

Thanks a lot ! I will PM you

Luso
02-14-2021, 10:10 PM
7abiby, you look pretty Turkic. I mean, you can easily pass in Turkey and etc for me.

seems I get confused for a lot of things :)

Olymp
02-15-2021, 05:33 AM
Light makes a difference, it's freezing weather here so I took a snapshot standing close to te window in the full sun et le voila!


It is already less dark than the previous image (the example) that you took.

I see your window. Are you sensitive to light? This is my case, even if I don't have blue eyes (mainly because of my myopia).

Finn
02-15-2021, 04:41 PM
It is already less dark than the previous image (the example) that you took.

I see your window. Are you sensitive to light? This is my case, even if I don't have blue eyes (mainly because of my myopia).

I'm not sensitive to light (on the contrary), nevertheless there was some overexposure in light on that photo just to show that light matters in the observation of the coloring.
This one is more moderate:
https://i.postimg.cc/XXD514Z9/oog-midden.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XXD514Z9)

Out of curiosity and out of fun I searched for a kind of 'eye classifiction'. Obvious the Martin-Schultz scale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin%E2%80%93Schultz_scale) seems to be the standard.

But the exemplifying of it is IMO not steady:
https://i.postimg.cc/XYbX3ZWX/schulz.png (https://postimg.cc/9rLcYQrj)

It looks not internal consistent, doen't capture many eye colors (I should be 10 here).

A French adjustment of the Martin-Schultz scale is more ok:
https://i.postimg.cc/v82WQt2T/schulz-french.png (https://postimg.cc/s1SBm7rC)

I can easily place myself at 13 (you are 11/12?).

And I guess warm (yellow-red influenced) vs cool (blue-grey influenced) eyes plays also a part:
https://i.postimg.cc/q7Z3kkQY/cool-and-warm-eyes.png (https://postimg.cc/f3mLCQGj)

Paul333
02-15-2021, 07:00 PM
Looking at the above, I think there is no hazel eye colour described, my eyes seem mixed between Green and Hazel, a lot depends on the light,43330In bright daylight they seem even lighter. more than one former girlfreind, has said they thought my eyes were blue when they first met me. I have had them described as Green, Hazel, Blue, and Brown, so havent a clue what my true colour is, I think Hazel is the closest or best match.

Finn
02-15-2021, 07:11 PM
Looking at the above, I think there is no hazel eye colour described, my eyes seem mixed between Green and Hazel, a lot depends on the light,43330In bright daylight they seem even lighter. more than one former girlfreind, has said they thought my eyes were blue when they first met me.

nr 5 on the french chart: blue/gray with some yellow/ light brown.

Olymp
02-16-2021, 05:34 AM
I'm not sensitive to light (on the contrary), nevertheless there was some overexposure in light on that photo just to show that light matters in the observation of the coloring.
This one is more moderate:
https://i.postimg.cc/XXD514Z9/oog-midden.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XXD514Z9)

Out of curiosity and out of fun I searched for a kind of 'eye classifiction'. Obvious the Martin-Schultz scale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin%E2%80%93Schultz_scale) seems to be the standard.

But the exemplifying of it is IMO not steady:
https://i.postimg.cc/XYbX3ZWX/schulz.png (https://postimg.cc/9rLcYQrj)

It looks not internal consistent, doen't capture many eye colors (I should be 10 here).

A French adjustment of the Martin-Schultz scale is more ok:
https://i.postimg.cc/v82WQt2T/schulz-french.png (https://postimg.cc/s1SBm7rC)

I can easily place myself at 13 (you are 11/12?).

And I guess warm (yellow-red influenced) vs cool (blue-grey influenced) eyes plays also a part:
https://i.postimg.cc/q7Z3kkQY/cool-and-warm-eyes.png (https://postimg.cc/f3mLCQGj)

11 to 12-13 could be close to the definition (in the French sens) of "marron" color (close to the chesnut fruit color), other less.

Granary
02-16-2021, 02:14 PM
There was a significant influx of people from the Mediterranean in particular, but also the Levante and Near East. And fact is, light coloration of eyes and hair is subdominant, so even a moderate admixture will result in darkening.
Do you think this is why many South Slavs appear to be darker than their admixture would suggest?

Riverman
02-16-2021, 03:55 PM
Do you think this is why many South Slavs appear to be darker than their admixture would suggest?

Not just those, it goes through Europe and its the exact opposite of lactase persistence, which is dominant, and masks non-LP allels. Roughly speaking, you mix any given population 50 : 50 and only 25 percent will get light eye and hair coloration. That makes the sheer appearance and rise in frequency of light hair and eye color all the more astonishing, because its harder to select for than let's say light skin color. The same pattern being also true for much of the world with a West Eurasian percentage of significance, like North Africa, Near East and South Asia. The light coloration allels are there, they are just much less frequent. But if you think about it, they must reach a fairly high level to be really visible, individual cases ignored, in the population at all.

Finn
02-16-2021, 07:51 PM
Not just those, it goes through Europe and its the exact opposite of lactase persistence, which is dominant, and masks non-LP allels. Roughly speaking, you mix any given population 50 : 50 and only 25 percent will get light eye and hair coloration. That makes the sheer appearance and rise in frequency of light hair and eye color all the more astonishing, because its harder to select for than let's say light skin color. The same pattern being also true for much of the world with a West Eurasian percentage of significance, like North Africa, Near East and South Asia. The light coloration allels are there, they are just much less frequent. But if you think about it, they must reach a fairly high level to be really visible, individual cases ignored, in the population at all.

This is a nice example Riverman the pigmentation of North, Middle and Southern Germany, ok the 'popular believe' is (light-)blond in the North and more Southern is more darkish.....
That's not on the whole true. In the case of black hair the North has 30% more black haired people compared to the south. And Northern Germany is most of all dark blond (that is even more than light and middle blond summed together!). So no very light blond North....

Dr. Henss:
https://i.postimg.cc/Y9ytdcWw/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-16-om-20-47-21.png (https://postimages.org/)

hellblond = lightblonde, mittelblond = middleblonde,dunkelblond = darkblonde, hellbraun= ligthbrown,mittelbraun = mediumbrown , dunkelbraun=darkbrown rot= red, schwarz =black

alan
02-17-2021, 07:08 PM
This is a nice example Riverman the pigmentation of North, Middle and Southern Germany, ok the 'popular believe' is (light-)blond in the North and more Southern is more darkish.....
That's not on the whole true. In the case of black hair the North has 30% more black haired people compared to the south. And Northern Germany is most of all dark blond (that is even more than light and middle blond summed together!). So no very light blond North....

Dr. Henss:
https://i.postimg.cc/Y9ytdcWw/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-16-om-20-47-21.png (https://postimages.org/)

hellblond = lightblonde, mittelblond = middleblonde,dunkelblond = darkblonde, hellbraun= ligthbrown,mittelbraun = mediumbrown , dunkelbraun=darkbrown rot= red, schwarz =black

There is a similar myth in Ireland that western Ireland is much darker than the east. In fact the most light eyes in Ireland are in Connaught on the west coast and the Harvard Survey found there is considerably more very fair and freckled skin in the west than in the east. The western Irish were also taller than in the east in the Harvard Survey. Similar surveys found the same in Scotland that the western coast people were taller than the more Germanic east. There are a lot of stereotypes that are simply wrong.

alan
02-17-2021, 07:12 PM
This is a nice example Riverman the pigmentation of North, Middle and Southern Germany, ok the 'popular believe' is (light-)blond in the North and more Southern is more darkish.....
That's not on the whole true. In the case of black hair the North has 30% more black haired people compared to the south. And Northern Germany is most of all dark blond (that is even more than light and middle blond summed together!). So no very light blond North....

Dr. Henss:
https://i.postimg.cc/Y9ytdcWw/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-16-om-20-47-21.png (https://postimages.org/)

hellblond = lightblonde, mittelblond = middleblonde,dunkelblond = darkblonde, hellbraun= ligthbrown,mittelbraun = mediumbrown , dunkelbraun=darkbrown rot= red, schwarz =black

Interesting strong sexual dimorphism in hair colour. A similar study found this pattern in Ireland that the men tended to be darker than the women. Ive noticed this even in my own family and extended family that the females tend to be lighter haired than the males. Often starting with the same hair colour as infants but the males darkening a lot younger than the females. Im guessing its hormonal.

Finn
02-17-2021, 07:36 PM
Interesting strong sexual dimorphism in hair colour. A similar study found this pattern in Ireland that the men tended to be darker than the women. Ive noticed this even in my own family and extended family that the females tend to be lighter haired than the males. Often starting with the same hair colour as infants but the males darkening a lot younger than the females. Im guessing its hormonal.

Yes and combined with information about combination of "hair" with "eye" color, the combination of "light blond" with "brown eyes" is very rare (some percentilles) but"black hair" with "blue" eyes is also rare but less exceptional, and is less exceptional in the North than in the South of Germany.....

Olymp
02-18-2021, 05:41 AM
There is a similar myth in Ireland that western Ireland is much darker than the east. In fact the most light eyes in Ireland are in Connaught on the west coast and the Harvard Survey found there is considerably more very fair and freckled skin in the west than in the east. The western Irish were also taller than in the east in the Harvard Survey. Similar surveys found the same in Scotland that the western coast people were taller than the more Germanic east. There are a lot of stereotypes that are simply wrong.

"Dark" is a subjective term in part.

For a Anglo-saxon, dark means "not blues eyes with blond hair", and in France, means "extra-european facial feature + very brown skin color". For example, in Francen hazel eyes with chesnut (dark or light) are not "dark".

Finn
02-18-2021, 07:50 AM
"Dark" is a subjective term in part.

For a Anglo-saxon, dark means "not blues eyes with blond hair", and in France, means "extra-european facial feature + very brown skin color". For example, in Francen hazel eyes with chesnut (dark or light) are not "dark".


So it's in the eye of the beholder....in the French definition there are nearly no darkish people (like myself, darkblond, dark chestnut eyes) in my region.
Nevertheless a sheet like the one for Germany could be made I guess....

alan
02-19-2021, 10:48 AM
I read a few references in old books that the Alpine zone of Europe having people with auburn or similar terms hair. Even the Ligurians were described as such in classical sources. Is there any truth in this? Having never been in the Alps I dont know.

Finn
02-19-2021, 11:14 AM
I read a few references in old books that the Alpine zone of Europe having people with auburn or similar terms hair. Even the Ligurians were described as such in classical sources. Is there any truth in this? Having never been in the Alps I dont know.

I guess that's Riverman's turn! I'm from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o86s10YyBo here.

alan
02-19-2021, 11:17 AM
"Dark" is a subjective term in part.

For a Anglo-saxon, dark means "not blues eyes with blond hair", and in France, means "extra-european facial feature + very brown skin color". For example, in Francen hazel eyes with chesnut (dark or light) are not "dark".

The general concept in British Isles (my experience in all parts) goes something like

1. Proper ash Blonde hair and blue eyed, fair not freckled skin - kind of Germanic/scandi looking (generally a small minority in adulthood). Much more common in upper classes and SE England.

2. Brown hair, blue or hazel eyes, fair skin = typical British and Irish look - probably well over half of the white population. Extremely dominant outside the south-east of England.

3. Very dark hair/dark eyes/olive skin=dark, pseudo Med (again a minority look). Minority look. Seems most common in SW England and parts of south Wales and more rarely in Ireland (where dark haired people usually have light eyes and fair skin).

4. Ginger, v pale, usually light eyed= small minority but much more common among Celtic fringe and northernmost English. Far more common than it is on the continent. Distribution doesnt correlate at all with blionde hair and it tends to be stronger in areas where much of the population has brown not blonde hair. Almost as uncommon in SE England as it is on the continent.

5. People who kind of combine the Celtic ginger and Nordic blonde traits - light blonde-red hair, ginger beards, freckles etc. Seems commonest where the more northerly Celtic and Anglo-Saxon traits blend - northern England and lowland Scotland.

No.2. is very much seen as typical while 1. and 3. are much smaller minorities and might be commented on humorously on as 'Mr Viking' or 'looks a bit Italian'.

Blue eyes in the isles does not correlate with blonde hair very well. Some of the bluest eyed areas also tend to be dominated by brown hair. Red hair and blonde hair have totally different frequency maps. Old studies showed that in pre-industrial times the tallest people in the isles were the west coast Scottish, western Irish etc not the Germanic areas. So a lot of 'tall dark' people and stocky fair people..

alan
02-19-2021, 11:26 AM
Yes and combined with information about combination of "hair" with "eye" color, the combination of "light blond" with "brown eyes" is very rare (some percentilles) but"black hair" with "blue" eyes is also rare but less exceptional, and is less exceptional in the North than in the South of Germany.....

Id say that the combination of blonde hair and non-blue eyes is not that uncommon in SE England where both fair hair and darker eyes are more common than in other areas. In total contrast it is extremely uncommon in areas where light eyes are very common but blonde hair far less common like Ireland and Scotland.

Finn
02-19-2021, 11:29 AM
The general concept in British Isles (my experience in all parts) goes something like

1. Proper ash Blonde hair and blue eyed, fair not freckled skin - kind of Germanic/scandi looking (generally a small minority in adulthood). Much more common in upper classes and SE England.

2. Brown hair, blue or hazel eyes, fair skin = typical British and Irish look - probably well over half of the white population. Extremely dominant outside the south-east of England.

3. Very dark hair/dark eyes/olive skin=dark, pseudo Med (again a minority look). Minority look. Seems most common in SW England and parts of south Wales and more rarely in Ireland (where dark haired people usually have light eyes and fair skin).

4. Ginger, v pale, usually light eyed= small minority but much more common among Celtic fringe and northernmost English. Far more common than it is on the continent. Distribution doesnt correlate at all with blionde hair and it tends to be stronger in areas where much of the population has brown not blonde hair. Almost as uncommon in SE England as it is on the continent.

5. People who kind of combine the Celtic ginger and Nordic blonde traits - light blonde-red hair, ginger beards, freckles etc. Seems commonest where the more northerly Celtic and Anglo-Saxon traits blend - northern England and lowland Scotland.

No.2. is very much seen as typical while 1. and 3. are much smaller minorities and might be commented on humorously on as 'Mr Viking' or 'looks a bit Italian'.

Blue eyes in the isles does not correlate with blonde hair very well. Some of the bluest eyed areas also tend to be dominated by brown hair. Red hair and blonde hair have totally different frequency maps. Old studies showed that in pre-industrial times the tallest people in the isles were the west coast Scottish, western Irish etc not the Germanic areas. So a lot of 'tall dark' people and stocky fair people..

Thanks!

With respect to 1 and 2 it's in the North Dutch situation reverse! See for example my first class on secondary school (early eighties), mostly 'fifty shades of blonde' with a few exceptions....but not ash blond but warm (gold and/or red) blond!
https://i.postimg.cc/S2qwsPZq/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-19-om-12-23-12.png (https://postimg.cc/S2qwsPZq)

Riverman
02-19-2021, 12:23 PM
I read a few references in old books that the Alpine zone of Europe having people with auburn or similar terms hair. Even the Ligurians were described as such in classical sources. Is there any truth in this? Having never been in the Alps I dont know.

Well, there is a difference between Alpine in a geographical sense and in a typological one. For the typological concept of "Alpine", its largely true, for Alpine in a geographical sense, also to some degree, but rather as a mean, than a representative reality. Because the reality is a full range of hair colors in the geographical Alpine zone. In some of my relatives and those of my wife alone, I can see the whole range of hair color phenotypes from the lightest (white blond) to the darkest (shining black, not fully jet black though). The extremes are rare, anything in between is common in adults and children, but with an extreme shift from childhood to adulthood, from generally quite blond in early childhood, to something between dark blond and black-brown in adulthood.

Its noteworthy that there is no clear cut border on the individual level at all, but if going from Carinthia even into Northern Italy, its really striking how the average changes immediately from mixed with many light, to mixed with way more really dark haired people. This is obviously the result of a stronger Germanic and Slavic influence on Carinthia than on Northern Italians across the border. Even though they are still much lighter, especially in skin tone, than Southern Italians, no doubt about that. But the fairly clear cut change in appearances was really noticeable to me when moving even from Southern Austria to Northern Italy. Its not necessarily noticeable on an individual level, not at all, because you have similar phenotypes on both sides of the border too, but if going through the streets and looking at whole groups of people, its very clear and easy to recognise. That's true for many populations, throughout all of Europe, individually, there is a huge overlap, even from the fringes of the North to the fringes of the South, but on the group level, looking for example at groups of tourists, the differences are easy to spot and apparent.

Finn
02-19-2021, 12:47 PM
Well, there is a difference between Alpine in a geographical sense and in a typological one. For the typological concept of "Alpine", its largely true, for Alpine in a geographical sense, also to some degree, but rather as a mean, than a representative reality. Because the reality is a full range of hair colors in the geographical Alpine zone. In some of my relatives and those of my wife alone, I can see the whole range of hair color phenotypes from the lightest (white blond) to the darkest (shining black, not fully jet black though). The extremes are rare, anything in between is common in adults and children, but with an extreme shift from childhood to adulthood, from generally quite blond in early childhood, to something between dark blond and black-brown in adulthood.

Its noteworthy that there is no clear cut border on the individual level at all, but if going from Carinthia even into Northern Italy, its really striking how the average changes immediately from mixed with many light, to mixed with way more really dark haired people. This is obviously the result of a stronger Germanic and Slavic influence on Carinthia than on Northern Italians across the border. Even though they are still much lighter, especially in skin tone, than Southern Italians, no doubt about that. But the fairly clear cut change in appearances was really noticeable to me when moving even from Southern Austria to Northern Italy. Its not necessarily noticeable on an individual level, not at all, because you have similar phenotypes on both sides of the border too, but if going through the streets and looking at whole groups of people, its very clear and easy to recognise. That's true for many populations, throughout all of Europe, individually, there is a huge overlap, even from the fringes of the North to the fringes of the South, but on the group level, looking for example at groups of tourists, the differences are easy to spot and apparent.

Recognizable Riverman, when I think of southern Germans I must always think of Franz Jozef Strauss:biggrin1: But that’s my bad.... you are strong in observations what are your observations when you see the picture of my old class^^^ the view of an outsider is mostly better!!!

alan
02-19-2021, 04:39 PM
Well, there is a difference between Alpine in a geographical sense and in a typological one. For the typological concept of "Alpine", its largely true, for Alpine in a geographical sense, also to some degree, but rather as a mean, than a representative reality. Because the reality is a full range of hair colors in the geographical Alpine zone. In some of my relatives and those of my wife alone, I can see the whole range of hair color phenotypes from the lightest (white blond) to the darkest (shining black, not fully jet black though). The extremes are rare, anything in between is common in adults and children, but with an extreme shift from childhood to adulthood, from generally quite blond in early childhood, to something between dark blond and black-brown in adulthood.

Its noteworthy that there is no clear cut border on the individual level at all, but if going from Carinthia even into Northern Italy, its really striking how the average changes immediately from mixed with many light, to mixed with way more really dark haired people. This is obviously the result of a stronger Germanic and Slavic influence on Carinthia than on Northern Italians across the border. Even though they are still much lighter, especially in skin tone, than Southern Italians, no doubt about that. But the fairly clear cut change in appearances was really noticeable to me when moving even from Southern Austria to Northern Italy. Its not necessarily noticeable on an individual level, not at all, because you have similar phenotypes on both sides of the border too, but if going through the streets and looking at whole groups of people, its very clear and easy to recognise. That's true for many populations, throughout all of Europe, individually, there is a huge overlap, even from the fringes of the North to the fringes of the South, but on the group level, looking for example at groups of tourists, the differences are easy to spot and apparent.

Is there anything to this kind of 19th century observation that Alpine people tended to have reddish tint in their brown hair shades?

Riverman
02-19-2021, 06:38 PM
Is there anything to this kind of 19th century observation that Alpine people tended to have reddish tint in their brown hair shades?

I think there is something to it, in comparison to the Southern European sphere in particular, but it might be also more of a regional issue too.

Paul333
02-20-2021, 08:20 PM
I had a look on my 23 & Me traits, regarding hair colour, they state I am more likely to have lighter hair, unlikely to have red hair, and only 1% chance of having black hair. They also state 39% of people with my genetics are most likely to have very fair skin, whilst 32% have moderately fair skin.