PDA

View Full Version : Albanian and Vlach tribes in Herzegovina



trdbr1234
04-04-2020, 02:31 AM
I found this discussion really interesting.

I've always wondered about the similarities in culture between Herzegovina, Montenegro, and Albania. I've come to think of the Glasinac Culture as the core Illyrian area. It would make sense for this geographic area to share similarities. However, the mechanisms for how those similarities were transmitted is not apparent. A surviving Vlach and Albanian tribal stratum surviving in the area in the late middle ages would be the exact medium that could explain this.

I'm interested to know what else can be added to this discussion, as well as counter arguments.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Glasinac_culture.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac_culture



Well as I.Rexha has noticed, in the Defter of Hercegovina year 1476, the existence of typical Albanian Anthroponyms\Patronyms - Bardho & Progon - among the Burmaz\Burrmadh people in Nahije of Burmaz;

...Po ashtu, duhet theksuar se nė nahijen Burmaz hasim 4 familje me patronimin Bardo tė substratit ilir dhe 3 familje me patronimin Progon tė protoshqipės mesjetare, qė nė mesjetė i mbanin familjet arbėrore...

There are also other Anthroponymic and Topnomymic evidence from the 13th and 14th centuries that demonstrate their Albanophony, for instance;

1) Bogdan son of Gjin of Burmaz & Gjin son of Burmaz year 1321 !!

37044

2) The Toponymy near Gleđevaca (close to Burmaz Village) years 1382-1419, which contain a Anthroponymic component, to whom is attributed;
Preka Ljut - Прека Љут

3) The presence of Albanian-speaking communities near Ragusa\Dubrovnik where for the first time is 'attested the existence' of the Albanian language, in 14 july 1284 ;

....Audivi unam vocem, clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca.....

37045


37046


So in the Hinterland of Ragusa in the XIII century we encounter Albanian Clans (Burmaz, Zoto,Mataruga, Zhura, Maleshi, Mirushi etc) and Vlach Clans (Ridjani, Banjani, Nenkovici, Glegjevici, Vranic, Perutinovci, etc)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ka,_Trebinje This settlement is linked to them

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmazi : The brotherhoods of Burmazi also included the Zotovići. The earlier, non-Slavic form of Zotović is Zot, which means lord in Albanian.[4] Geographer Jevto Dedijer who traveled in the village to study its history noted that this earlier form was inscribed in the village in older family monuments like a cross that bore the name of village elder Petar Zot.[3]

From Idriz Ajeti's Collected Works: "Nė fshatin Burmaz, nga shqipja buri-madh – njeri i madh, Jefta Dedijer, (o.c.121), lexoi nė njė kryq tė vjetėr qė njė plak i tyre ėshtė quajtur Petar Zot, e jo Zotović. Dedijeri pohon se kjo ishte njė familje e vjetėr, dhe duke u mbėshtetur nė njė shėnim, thotė se “peshkopi Noktaris Zotoviqi, trebinjas nė vitin 1705, i fali ikonėn manastirit
tė Trebinjės”. "

trdbr1234
04-04-2020, 04:36 PM
bump.....

Johane Derite
04-04-2020, 05:35 PM
The 7th.C.AD chronicle of Ragusa says that Dukagjin refugees moved to Ragusa from Bosnia & Albania in 690 AD

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETef-EwWoAcdkv4?format=jpg&name=medium

Johane Derite
04-04-2020, 06:05 PM
If somebody can find a source to this chronicle of ragusa, it would be important. Dukagjin and Albania mentioned in 690AD?

Maleschreiber
04-05-2020, 10:03 AM
If somebody can find a source to this chronicle of ragusa, it would be important. Dukagjin and Albania mentioned in 690AD?

Yes, Albania was mentioned then. About Dukagjini the author here probably means the areas that were later known as Dukagjin.

J Man
04-05-2020, 12:11 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Španje

trdbr1234
04-05-2020, 05:52 PM
I remember reading that the "Vlach" inhabitants of Herzegovina were subjected to a one child policy by the Serbian lowland rulers, otherwise they were subjected to extra taxes. I can't remember where I read this.

A policy of this sort may explain the lack of typical paternal paleo-Balkan Y-DNA markers such as R1b, J2b, J2a, and Ev-13, as well as the elevated increase of paternal markers associated with the Slavic invasion of 12a and R1a. It is entirely possible that through bottlenecks and founder effects, that these Vlach and Albanian tribes could have carried these same markers we observe today in Herzegovina. However, a one child policy(if true and enforceable) could have easily changed the Y-DNA makeup of the region within a few generations.

Johane Derite
04-05-2020, 05:54 PM
Yes, Albania was mentioned then. About Dukagjini the author here probably means the areas that were later known as Dukagjin.

Nah, it supposedly specifically mentions them in 600s AD.:

" Ragusan sources, published by Makushev in "Research on the Chronicle of Ragusa," (12) claim that the Dukagjinis were known as the Dukagjinis of Arbania in the seventh century and ruled over the Albanian part of Montenegro (Piperi, Vasojevich, Podgorica and Kuchi, i.e. Zeta). They apparently rose in revolt against the Slavic invaders but were put down by Bosnian chieftains. In 695 they attempted to interfere in domestic Ragusan issues but were repulsed again and submitted to the local Slavic leaders. Their pride and self-confidence hindered them from creating family ties with the Slavs whom they regarded as below their dignity. As the Chronicle puts it: "compari per sempre non accattarono che infra loro." (13)"


In his testament, Gjon Muzhaka writes with great fantasy on the origins of the Dukagjinis, alleging that they stemmed from Troy and emigrated to France. Two brothers from this dynasty, on the other hand, are thought to have emigrated to Italy during the Crusades. One of them is said to have been the founder of the Este dynasty, the other returned and settled in Zadrima near Shkodra and founded the Dukagjinis.

Closest to the truth in this tangled net of fables and legends is, in our view, the report of a Byzantine chronicler of the seventh century. He states that at the end of the fifth century, a tribe of Goths under their leader Duke Gentius (or Genusius or Gjin) penetrated into the Shkodra region from Dalmatia and settle there. Compelled to react to this new reality, the Byzantine Emperor made Gjin his Sebastocrator, also calling him a magister militum from Dalmatia. This Gentius is said to have set up a realm between Shkodra and Durrės, (14) which proved to be to the liking of the rural population because it adapted Gothic laws to those of the local tribes. The connection of the name Dukagjini to the code of customary law in the Albanian mountains, the so-called Canon or Kanun of Lekė Dukagjini, would seem to derive from this, such that the Goth in question may be regarded as the ancestor of the Dukagjinis. This, at least, would seem more likely than the above-mentioned legends."

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1956_Vlora/index.html

Johane Derite
04-05-2020, 05:55 PM
Dukagjin being a Goth ruler in Albania seems pretty strange, would love some sources if anyone knows of any.

trdbr1234
04-05-2020, 06:02 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Španje

Really interesting. Is there any detailed article or publications about them?

Kelmendasi
04-05-2020, 06:18 PM
Dukagjin being a Goth ruler in Albania seems pretty strange, would love some sources if anyone knows of any.
Eqrem bej Vlora only mentions that a story of Gothic origin was recorded by a Byzantine chronicler in the 7th century, however no actual reference to the source is made. Same goes for the story made by Ottoman chroniclers in the 15th century, who claimed that the family were descended from "Germans". I personally have not found these sources online.

The earliest mention of a member of this family was in 1281 where a certain Gjin Tanushi carrying the title of duke was mentioned (ducam Ginium Tanuschium Albanensem). He had two sons; Gjergj Dukagjini and Antanazius (Tanush?) Dukagjini. Sources state that he was killed by the locals of Ndėrfanda (Mirdita). A connection between the Dukagjini and Mirditė makes sense given that the oldest branch of the family was based around Mirdita, Zadrima and Lezha, as well as the fact that they used the second name Perlati which clearly suggests a connection to the village of Perlat in Mirditė. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326540508_Dukagjinet_gjate_Mesjetes_Shtrirja_gjeog rafike_e_trojeve_dhe_disa_karakteristika_The_Noble _Dukagjinis_during_the_Middle_Ages_Their_Territori es_and_some_Characteristics

Johane Derite
04-05-2020, 06:25 PM
Eqrem bej Vlora only mentions that a story of Gothic origin was recorded by a Byzantine chronicler in the 7th century, however no actual reference to the source is made. Same goes for the story made by Ottoman chroniclers in the 15th century, who claimed that the family were descended from "Germans". I personally have not found these sources online.

The earliest mention of a member of this family was in 1281 where a certain Gjin Tanushi carrying the title of duke was mentioned (ducam Ginium Tanuschium Albanensem). He had two sons; Gjergj Dukagjini and Antanazius (Tanush?) Dukagjini.Sources state that he was killed by the locals of Ndėrfanda (Mirdita). A connection between the Dukagjini and Mirditė makes sense given that the oldest branch of the family was based around Mirdita, Zadrima and Lezha, as well as the fact that they used the second name Perlati which clearly suggests a connection to the village of Perlat in Mirditė. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326540508_Dukagjinet_gjate_Mesjetes_Shtrirja_gjeog rafike_e_trojeve_dhe_disa_karakteristika_The_Noble _Dukagjinis_during_the_Middle_Ages_Their_Territori es_and_some_Characteristics

We need to find this source somehow:

"" Ragusan sources, published by Makushev in "Research on the Chronicle of Ragusa," (12) "

If dukagjini nad "Arbania" is mentioned in 690 then we need to verify or falsify asap and change wiki which says albanians first appear on 11th century.

I also agree its weird something doesnt add up

Keqa
04-05-2020, 11:32 PM
We targeted those Perlati from Mirdite for that specific reason and interestingly enough they are R1b-Z2705 (Most likely Y32147+).

J Man
04-06-2020, 12:25 AM
Really interesting. Is there any detailed article or publications about them?

I'm not sure I will have to look into it in more detail.

J Man
04-06-2020, 02:35 AM
The Pjesivci tribe of Montenegro may be of at least partial Španje origins. They pretty much all belong to a certain subclade of J2a-M92 which is likely of Pre-Slavic origins in the Balkans but they claim to descend in the paternal line from a Serbian nobleman named Bogdan Potolic.

Maleschreiber
04-07-2020, 11:28 PM
The Pjesivci tribe of Montenegro may be of at least partial Španje origins. They pretty much all belong to a certain subclade of J2a-M92 which is likely of Pre-Slavic origins in the Balkans but they claim to descend in the paternal line from a Serbian nobleman named Bogdan Potolic.

Well, the Pjesivci only claim half of that. They claim they come from a Bogdan Potolic, but the idea that he was a Serbian nobleman was an idea in the late 19th and early 20th century by Serbian anthropologists like Erdeljanovic. Quoting the actual folk tradition from Zeljko Musovic, "Genetika, Istorija i Bajke":

"Po predanju, predak Gornjih Pjesivaca, knez (a, ponegdje i vojvoda) Bogdan Potolic je dosao iz (danas albanskog) plemena Gruda “poslije Kosova”. Takode je zabiljezena i pri-
ca da su “bila dva brata, Bogdan i Grujica”, i da su od Grujice Grude, a od Bogdana Pjesivci.

Istorijska veza (gornjih) Pjesivaca i Gruda je postojala i u XVII/XVIII vijeku. Tada se u turski grad Niksic doselilo nekoliko uglednih familija iz ovog albanskog “fisa”. Ti ljudi i Pjesivci su se, po Petra Sobajicu (Niksic, 66), “svojatali” i uzajamno pomagali i u miru i tokom odredenih sukoba u gradu."

So, in the oral tradition Bogdan of Pjesivci was related to Gruda and this tradition between the two tribes existed as a semi-historical tradition which facilitated cooperation between the two groups in Niksic, an area out of their respective territories.

The Pjesivci also claim than when their ancestor settled in their area he found the Spanji, a non-Slavic people and the Luzani, a half-Slavic population. It'd be interesting to see how this tradition is reflected in any Y DNA results.

J Man
04-08-2020, 04:11 AM
Well, the Pjesivci only claim half of that. They claim they come from a Bogdan Potolic, but the idea that he was a Serbian nobleman was an idea in the late 19th and early 20th century by Serbian anthropologists like Erdeljanovic. Quoting the actual folk tradition from Zeljko Musovic, "Genetika, Istorija i Bajke":

"Po predanju, predak Gornjih Pjesivaca, knez (a, ponegdje i vojvoda) Bogdan Potolic je dosao iz (danas albanskog) plemena Gruda “poslije Kosova”. Takode je zabiljezena i pri-
ca da su “bila dva brata, Bogdan i Grujica”, i da su od Grujice Grude, a od Bogdana Pjesivci.

Istorijska veza (gornjih) Pjesivaca i Gruda je postojala i u XVII/XVIII vijeku. Tada se u turski grad Niksic doselilo nekoliko uglednih familija iz ovog albanskog “fisa”. Ti ljudi i Pjesivci su se, po Petra Sobajicu (Niksic, 66), “svojatali” i uzajamno pomagali i u miru i tokom odredenih sukoba u gradu."

So, in the oral tradition Bogdan of Pjesivci was related to Gruda and this tradition between the two tribes existed as a semi-historical tradition which facilitated cooperation between the two groups in Niksic, an area out of their respective territories.

The Pjesivci also claim than when their ancestor settled in their area he found the Spanji, a non-Slavic people and the Luzani, a half-Slavic population. It'd be interesting to see how this tradition is reflected in any Y DNA results.

Wow this is actually really interesting. I did not know about a tradition of Pjesivci possibly being related to Gruda. As far as I know the Pjesivci and the Gruda belong to different Y-DNA haplogroups though which likely rules out any common male line ancestry unless there is a section of Gruda that is J2a-M92 that has not been found yet or went extinct. Pjesivci tribal territory of course is located between Niksic and Danilovgrad and I know that they fought with the Turks of Niksic a lot over the centuries.

Kelmendasi
04-08-2020, 08:27 PM
Wow this is actually really interesting. I did not know about a tradition of Pjesivci possibly being related to Gruda. As far as I know the Pjesivci and the Gruda belong to different Y-DNA haplogroups though which likely rules out any common male line ancestry unless there is a section of Gruda that is J2a-M92 that has not been found yet or went extinct. Pjesivci tribal territory of course is located between Niksic and Danilovgrad and I know that they fought with the Turks of Niksic a lot over the centuries.
As far as I know, no J2a-S8230 has been found in Grudė or the surrounding region. As of now, the majority of the Gruda seem to belong to J2b-Y82533 with the remaining families being R-Z2705>BY38894 and E-BY168279. The story of relation between the Pješivci and Gruda was likely pushed in order to promote cooperation, as Maleschreiber suggested.

However, the Pješivci share J2a-S8230 with some families from the Cuce tribe which is located to the southwest of Pješivci. The Cuce themselves seem to be heterogeneous with a number of families claiming origin from different regions.

J Man
04-08-2020, 10:00 PM
As far as I know, no J2a-S8230 has been found in Grudė or the surrounding region. As of now, the majority of the Gruda seem to belong to J2b-Y82533 with the remaining families being R-Z2705>BY38894 and E-BY168279. The story of relation between the Pješivci and Gruda was likely pushed in order to promote cooperation, as Maleschreiber suggested.

However, the Pješivci share J2a-S8230 with some families from the Cuce tribe which is located to the southwest of Pješivci. The Cuce themselves seem to be heterogeneous with a number of families claiming origin from different regions.

Yes very likely I agree. Yup a number of men from Upper Cuce that have tested so far. The Krivopapici bratstva is J2a-S8230 to which the famous tribal leader Milos Krivokapic belonged to came from Upper Cuce. They are quite close to the Pješivci even on STR haplotypes.

Exercitus
04-09-2020, 04:05 PM
Well, considering that this thread should also point out and analyze the presence of Vlachs in Hercegovina (consequently their Genetic impact in the modern areas in question !), i took a look at the Defter of the Sandžak of Hercegovina year 1477 !!

- https://vdocuments.site/alicic-s-ahmed-poimenicni-popis-sandzaka-vilajeta-hercegovina-1477-god.html

In this page you can find some very useful maps of the region, also some Links that contains the complet list of settlments in Rumelia registered by Ottomans in 1533, also the names of the Voynuk's appointed for each village.

- https://www.bosanskehistorije.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1284

This are the most interesant maps concerning the Topic !!

- https://i.imgur.com/zTrzQZE.jpg

- https://i.imgur.com/4qUrPpr.jpg

Exercitus
04-09-2020, 04:34 PM
In the list of Vlachs and Voynuk's in the Defter of 1533, are explicitly mentioned as Vlachs\Eflagan this Nahije's ;
1. Kaza Foča
Nahija Završje/Završ (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Dubrave (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Luka (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Burmaz/Burnaz (vlaška nahija ?!)
2. Kaza Mostar
Nahija Dumna (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Poljice (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Posušje (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Ljubuški (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Fragustin (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Imote (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Radepolje/Radopolje (vlaška nahija)
Nahija tvrđave Rog (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Buško Blato (vlaška nahija)
3. Kaza Novi
Nahija Dračevica (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Banja-Rudine (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Ljubomir (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Onogošt (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Nikšić, called also Gračanica (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Zubci (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Donje Rudine (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Gornje Rudine (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Piva-Banja (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Riđani, drugo ime Grahovo (vlaška nahija)
4. Kaza Prijepolje
Nahija Ljubović (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Rovca (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Gornja Morača (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Donja Morača (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Mataruge (vlaška nahija !?)
Nahija Krička (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Tara (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Komarnica, the other name Drobnjak (vlaška nahija)

Although, often the clasification\definition of 'Vlach' has been regarded more as a Social-Economical Status (excluding the ethnic connotation !!!), it becomes clear - in the basis of the Defter of Hercegovina year 1477 - that the real Romance-speaking Vlachs were at a considerable porportion compared with the general population of those regions ( Hercegovina & North Montenegro)!

Also some more detailed Maps of the Vlach Nahije's ;

37102


37103

Exercitus
04-09-2020, 05:12 PM
Knowing that among the Vlachs occurred the same integration\assimilation process in the Slavic milieu (Onomastically, Religiously and later linguistically!) as in the case of Albanians in some areas of Kosovo, Montenegro and West Macedonia, we might expect a plurality of inhabitants bearing Slavic onomastics (folk & christian), but as the in the case of the Albanian Katuns, are enought few typical Folk names to determine the fact that we are dealing with
a considerable amount of Non-Slav inhabitants, in this specific case Romance-speaking Vlachs!!

I will give you the case of Nahije Kricka (Krici), if you look carefully, in the other Vlach Nahije we observe also some non-Slavic Anthroponymy, so we might suggest that this indicates the presence of genuine Vlachs !!

37104

Also there were some Albanian anthroponyms among some Villages, but compared to the Slavic and Vlachic they constituted a minority !!

37105

37106

37107

etc

So i guess the Old Balkanics Hg (E-v13, J2b, R1b etc) among the South Slavs from this regions could be attributed also to the Vlachic ethnic component !!

Dorkymon
04-09-2020, 06:02 PM
In the list of Vlachs and Voynuk's in the Defter of 1533, are explicitly mentioned as Vlachs\Eflagan this Nahije's ;
1. Kaza Foča
Nahija Završje/Završ (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Dubrave (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Luka (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Burmaz/Burnaz (vlaška nahija ?!)
2. Kaza Mostar
Nahija Dumna (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Poljice (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Posušje (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Ljubuški (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Fragustin (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Imote (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Radepolje/Radopolje (vlaška nahija)
Nahija tvrđave Rog (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Buško Blato (vlaška nahija)
3. Kaza Novi
Nahija Dračevica (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Banja-Rudine (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Ljubomir (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Onogošt (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Nikšić, called also Gračanica (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Zubci (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Donje Rudine (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Gornje Rudine (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Piva-Banja (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Riđani, drugo ime Grahovo (vlaška nahija)
4. Kaza Prijepolje
Nahija Ljubović (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Rovca (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Gornja Morača (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Donja Morača (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Mataruge (vlaška nahija !?)
Nahija Krička (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Tara (vlaška nahija)
Nahija Komarnica, the other name Drobnjak (vlaška nahija)

Although, often the clasification\definition of 'Vlach' has been regarded more as a Social-Economical Status (excluding the ethnic connotation !!!), it becomes clear - in the basis of the Defter of Hercegovina year 1477 - that the real Romance-speaking Vlachs were at a considerable porportion compared with the general population of those regions ( Hercegovina & North Montenegro)!

Also some more detailed Maps of the Vlach Nahije's ;

37102


37103

None of those settlement names mean anything in Romanian.

Kelmendasi
04-09-2020, 06:17 PM
Knowing that among the Vlachs occurred the same integration\assimilation process in the Slavic milieu (Onomastically, Religiously and later linguistically!) as in the case of Albanians in some areas of Kosovo, Montenegro and West Macedonia, we might expect a plurality of inhabitants bearing Slavic onomastics (folk & christian), but as the in the case of the Albanian Katuns, are enought few typical Folk names to determine the fact that we are dealing with
a considerable amount of Non-Slav inhabitants, in this specific case Romance-speaking Vlachs!!

I will give you the case of Nahije Kricka (Krici), if you look carefully, in the other Vlach Nahije we observe also some non-Slavic Anthroponymy, so we might suggest that this indicates the presence of genuine Vlachs !!

37104

Also there were some Albanian anthroponyms among some Villages, but compared to the Slavic and Vlachic they constituted a minority !!

37105

37106

37107

etc

So i guess the Old Balkanics Hg (E-v13, J2b, R1b etc) among the South Slavs from this regions could be attributed also to the Vlachic ethnic component !!
Interesting, the Y-DNA of some of the historical tribes of Old Herzegovina has been identified as a number of families claiming descent from these tribes have tested and belong to the same haplogroup (for the most part). Many who claim origin from the Kriči have turned out to belong to J2b-Y22059 which is believed to have entered the Balkans from the Levant, or surrounding regions, some time anywhere between the Bronze Age to the Byzantine period.

Also, many families with origin from the Drobnjak/Drobnjaci have tested as I1-FGC22045. FGC22045 is a downstream of L22>P109 which suggests a Scandinavian or North Germanic origin for FGC22045 as P109+ clusters are best associated with the expansion of Norse-speakers.

Exercitus
04-09-2020, 09:25 PM
None of those settlement names mean anything in Romanian.

Well, first of all we should not equalize Toponymy = Ethnicity, especially in the Balkans area!! There a reasons why Albanians and Vlachs haven't such a 'toponymic heritage' ;

1) Their Social system, their way of life during the early Middle ages, both were based in transhumance, passing gradually from a Nomadic - Semi-Nomadic - settling, formation of Villages (as Ducellier has described this process regarding the Albanians).So the majority of the settlments were temporary (as the case of almost 200 Albanian katunds which practically vanished during 2 centuries from the year 1463 till the XVII century in Peleponessos !!) some other hamlets (katunds) were tranformed in Villages for instance the 'Arbanasi Katuns' mentioned in 1348 in north-east Prizren (Gjinovci,(Gjinaj) Gjonovci (Gjonaj)† Flokovci (Flokaj)† Shpinadija, Caparce etc) or as the considerable number of Toponimies of Vlach origin in Kosovo ; Nishor, Mamusha, Mushetisht, Stanishor, Guncat, Kosterc, Pagarusha, Mucibabe, Pinushince, Pirushince, Makresh, Babshor, Berbatovc etc etc

2) In connection with the above reason, Slavs where historically Farmers and lived in big villages in the lowlands or in River Valleys (as the Greeks in Peleponessos), instead Albanians and Vlachs in the hilly areas - that is why in south Albania the majority of Slavic toponymy are located in the lowlands - , so this settlments had much more chance to 'survive' !! Also i should mention the case of the Yuruk Turks that came in Macedonia, Bulgaria etc as colonizers, they created big new villages in the lowlands and gave them turkish names, but if you check documents (containing toponymic data's) of the areas where the Turks settled, before the XV century, you will see the Toponymic change\shift . So that's why Defters are important, because we could learn about the existence of Toponyms which had ceased to exist, like the case of a lot of Albanian toponyms in eastern Kosovo and in the Preshevo Valley (South Serbia) discovered by I.Rexha !!


If you want to find Vlach names look at the highlands, like this list from "The heritage of Western Balkan Vlachs" ;

.........A lot of names of mountains with Vlach resonance are known:
Vlasic, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja
Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakon
je, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški, Vlasic, Vlase,Vlasi, Vlasotince, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja.
A lot of Vlach names have disappeared when the Vlachs were slavicized....

I recalled also Stari Vlah\the Old Vlach, a subregion of Raska\Raška region, than this mountains in Montenegro with clear Romance etymology;

- Durmitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durmitor
- Visitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visitor_(mountain)

Exercitus
04-09-2020, 09:35 PM
Again a small 'paradox', that demonstrate the relativity of toponymic criteria: the Montenegrin\Serbs from the Old 'Ljesanska Nahija' are primarily I2a Din and R1a but meanwhile the hilly area around contains a impressive number of Albanian toponyms;

Ćafa(Qafa), Škam(Shkamb), Šeđezi(Gjegjezi), Malenza, Gropa, Šincevic(Gjin), Šinova(Gjin) Glavica, Lalusovo(Lalush) Osoje, Prentin(Prend) Do, Ceklin(Ceket), Šinđon(Shin Gjon), Progonovići(Progon), Buronji, Džonijeva(Gjon) jama, Đinovo(Gjin) Brdo, Bardetici(Bardh), Pajteza, Spereza, Useza(Ujeza?), Brine(Brinja), Koljesica(Kole + Llesh), Sintolija (Shindellia-Saint Elijah) etc etc

http://www.montenet.org/2003/bozo5.html

How do you explain this ?!

Johane Derite
04-09-2020, 10:34 PM
Again a small 'paradox', that demonstrate the relativity of toponymic criteria: the Montenegrin\Serbs from the Old 'Ljesanska Nahija' are primarily I2a Din and R1a but meanwhile the hilly area around contains a impressive number of Albanian toponyms;

Ćafa(Qafa), Škam(Shkamb), Šeđezi(Gjegjezi), Malenza, Gropa, Šincevic(Gjin), Šinova(Gjin) Glavica, Lalusovo(Lalush) Osoje, Prentin(Prend) Do, Ceklin(Ceket), Šinđon(Shin Gjon), Progonovići(Progon), Buronji, Džonijeva(Gjon) jama, Đinovo(Gjin) Brdo, Bardetici(Bardh), Pajteza, Spereza, Useza(Ujeza?), Brine(Brinja), Koljesica(Kole + Llesh), Sintolija (Shindellia-Saint Elijah) etc etc

http://www.montenet.org/2003/bozo5.html

How do you explain this ?!

Placenames are considered to be among the more stable conservative linguistic phenomena that can subsist many different waves of settlers speaking different languages. Those toponyms suggest Albanians used to be there imo. I dont think other scenarios are likely

Kelmendasi
04-09-2020, 11:35 PM
Again a small 'paradox', that demonstrate the relativity of toponymic criteria: the Montenegrin\Serbs from the Old 'Ljesanska Nahija' are primarily I2a Din and R1a but meanwhile the hilly area around contains a impressive number of Albanian toponyms;

Ćafa(Qafa), Škam(Shkamb), Šeđezi(Gjegjezi), Malenza, Gropa, Šincevic(Gjin), Šinova(Gjin) Glavica, Lalusovo(Lalush) Osoje, Prentin(Prend) Do, Ceklin(Ceket), Šinđon(Shin Gjon), Progonovići(Progon), Buronji, Džonijeva(Gjon) jama, Đinovo(Gjin) Brdo, Bardetici(Bardh), Pajteza, Spereza, Useza(Ujeza?), Brine(Brinja), Koljesica(Kole + Llesh), Sintolija (Shindellia-Saint Elijah) etc etc

http://www.montenet.org/2003/bozo5.html

How do you explain this ?!
As far as I know, many brotherhoods from Lješanska nahija actually claim to have arrived from other ethnographic/tribal regions of Montenegro (e.g. Ozrinići, Nikšić etc) or even Herzegovina during the 17th century. Many of these families are I2a-PH908. However, I believe that some claim that the older population arrived from Lezha and the surrounding areas during the late 15th century due to the Ottoman invasion, which is how the region supposedly got its name (Lezha has also been known as Lesh/Llesh).

A number of the toponyms of the region seem to be derived from the names of historical Albanian tribes (fis) or anthroponyms. For example the village of Goljemadi most certainly derives its name from the historical Albanian tribe Gojėmadhi or Goljemadhi who are later recorded in the defter of 1485 as having formed a katun in Kelmend (the katun of Kolemadi). There is also the village of Šteke (Šteci) which may be connected to the last name Steku/Steko which is recorded in the Venetian cadaster of 1416-17 in multiple villages around Shkodra (Stirė, Shirq, Progjen e Stikjan etc).

Edit: Should also have mentioned that there is a village called Kruse in the region. It's possible that this village is related to the Albanian Kryethi tribe, I say this as the name of this tribe is also recorded as Kruta and Krueti. This would be interesting as it is recorded that the Kryethi occupied and even formed some villages around Lezhė. For example the Crutta family, a Venetian noble family of Albanian origin from the Kryethi, tied their ancestry to the village of Kakarriq. Also, in 1640 the village of Krytha is recorded around modern day Dajē. However, the name Kruesi (Kryezi) is also recorded in the Venetian cadaster, this could be another possibility.

Dorkymon
04-10-2020, 08:47 AM
Well, first of all we should not equalize Toponymy = Ethnicity, especially in the Balkans area!! There a reasons why Albanians and Vlachs haven't such a 'toponymic heritage' ;

1) Their Social system, their way of life during the early Middle ages, both were based in transhumance, passing gradually from a Nomadic - Semi-Nomadic - settling, formation of Villages (as Ducellier has described this process regarding the Albanians).So the majority of the settlments were temporary (as the case of almost 200 Albanian katunds which practically vanished during 2 centuries from the year 1463 till the XVII century in Peleponessos !!) some other hamlets (katunds) were tranformed in Villages for instance the 'Arbanasi Katuns' mentioned in 1348 in north-east Prizren (Gjinovci,(Gjinaj) Gjonovci (Gjonaj)† Flokovci (Flokaj)† Shpinadija, Caparce etc) or as the considerable number of Toponimies of Vlach origin in Kosovo ; Nishor, Mamusha, Mushetisht, Stanishor, Guncat, Kosterc, Pagarusha, Mucibabe, Pinushince, Pirushince, Makresh, Babshor, Berbatovc etc etc

2) In connection with the above reason, Slavs where historically Farmers and lived in big villages in the lowlands or in River Valleys (as the Greeks in Peleponessos), instead Albanians and Vlachs in the hilly areas - that is why in south Albania the majority of Slavic toponymy are located in the lowlands - , so this settlments had much more chance to 'survive' !! Also i should mention the case of the Yuruk Turks that came in Macedonia, Bulgaria etc as colonizers, they created big new villages in the lowlands and gave them turkish names, but if you check documents (containing toponymic data's) of the areas where the Turks settled, before the XV century, you will see the Toponymic change\shift . So that's why Defters are important, because we could learn about the existence of Toponyms which had ceased to exist, like the case of a lot of Albanian toponyms in eastern Kosovo and in the Preshevo Valley (South Serbia) discovered by I.Rexha !!


If you want to find Vlach names look at the highlands, like this list from "The heritage of Western Balkan Vlachs" ;

.........A lot of names of mountains with Vlach resonance are known:
Vlasic, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja
Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakon
je, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški, Vlasic, Vlase,Vlasi, Vlasotince, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja.
A lot of Vlach names have disappeared when the Vlachs were slavicized....

I recalled also Stari Vlah\the Old Vlach, a subregion of Raska\Raška region, than this mountains in Montenegro with clear Romance etymology;

- Durmitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durmitor
- Visitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visitor_(mountain)

Romanians have a lot of regional identities, which were in use before the common Romanian ethnogenesis formed. Names like Muntean, Oltean, Ardelean, Moldovan, Bănățean, Oșean, Maramureșean. These are still largely in use within Romania and correspond to historic regions. The only people who use Vlach as a name are Gagauz and Russians. Romanians never called themselves Vlachs.
This is just the international name for them, like how Hungary is called Magyarorszag, but in English it's Hungary.
So this leads me to think that those settlements were probably in minority inhabited by Romance speakers, if at all, and/or their names were attributed by others.

Exercitus
04-10-2020, 05:00 PM
Interesting, the Y-DNA of some of the historical tribes of Old Herzegovina has been identified as a number of families claiming descent from these tribes have tested and belong to the same haplogroup (for the most part). Many who claim origin from the Kriči have turned out to belong to J2b-Y22059 which is believed to have entered the Balkans from the Levant, or surrounding regions, some time anywhere between the Bronze Age to the Byzantine period.

Also, many families with origin from the Drobnjak/Drobnjaci have tested as I1-FGC22045. FGC22045 is a downstream of L22>P109 which suggests a Scandinavian or North Germanic origin for FGC22045 as P109+ clusters are best associated with the expansion of Norse-speakers.

The J2b-Y22059 it's kinda intriguing because of the TMRCA 1000 ybp, it's clearly much more recent compared with the J-L283 (which, for example among the Albanians reaches TMRCA > 3000 ybp!), i read this; https://phylogeographer.com/j-m205-3700-bc-diversification-in-the-southern-levant-egypt-and-arabia/

Balkan Presence of one lineage of J-M205

Based on the NGS samples on YFull, there is only one subclade with Balkan presence, J-Y22059. The common ancestor of these men lived about 1000 years ago. This man's descendants trace descent to Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia and Albania, though there may be STR matches of these men found elsewhere.

Given that its three siblings, J-FT58361, J-Y128487, and a basal Palestinian all trace descent to the Near East, that J-FT58361's Near Eastern most recent common ancestor lived 1800 BC, and given the upstream diversity in the Near East, it makes the most sense that the ancestors of J-Y22059 migrated to the Balkans from the Near East some time before 1000 years ago.

Frankly it's a real mistery ! How did that Levantine male ended up in Hercegovina around 1000 a.d ?!

I see also an Albanian sample among the Serb and Bosnian, any information concerning his region (or Fis) of origin ?!https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/

Kelmendasi
04-10-2020, 05:32 PM
The J2b-Y22059 it's kinda intriguing because of the TMRCA 1000 ybp, it's clearly much more recent compared with the J-L283 (which, for example among the Albanians reaches TMRCA > 3000 ybp!), i read this; https://phylogeographer.com/j-m205-3700-bc-diversification-in-the-southern-levant-egypt-and-arabia/

Balkan Presence of one lineage of J-M205

Based on the NGS samples on YFull, there is only one subclade with Balkan presence, J-Y22059. The common ancestor of these men lived about 1000 years ago. This man's descendants trace descent to Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia and Albania, though there may be STR matches of these men found elsewhere.

Given that its three siblings, J-FT58361, J-Y128487, and a basal Palestinian all trace descent to the Near East, that J-FT58361's Near Eastern most recent common ancestor lived 1800 BC, and given the upstream diversity in the Near East, it makes the most sense that the ancestors of J-Y22059 migrated to the Balkans from the Near East some time before 1000 years ago.

Frankly it's a real mistery ! How did that Levantine male ended up in Hercegovina around 1000 a.d ?!

I see also an Albanian sample among the Serb and Bosnian, any information concerning his region (or Fis) of origin ?!https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/
Yes J2b-Y22059 is pretty interesting. I believe that there are three Y22059+ Albanians so far, two I believe are from Kosovo and one is from Albania. The Albanian sample on Yfull is one of the guys from Kosovo, he hails from an old Albanian family from Zhegėr in Gjilan that have been in the region for a long time. I do not know where in Kosovo the other sample is from. The sample from Albania is from Lohja e Poshtme (Lower Lohja) in Malėsi e Madhe, if I recall correctly he is rather distant to the other Albanians which suggests an earlier split.

There are some other M205+ samples from Albania who are Y22059-. In Gjirokaster some J2b-CTS1969+ samples have been identified, they could be YP13+ or Y22075+. Interestingly the late Albanian linguist and scholar Eqrem Ēabej belonged to this haplogroup.

Exercitus
04-10-2020, 07:21 PM
At Eupedia Forum in the thread regarding J2b-M205, Dema has listed this Albanian samples;


So, there is 14 samples in 5 different branches with Y22059 dominating in the north and Gjirokaster cluster dominating in the south, both of them are CTS1969+.


23andme Dema, Zall-Bastar, central Albania. J2b-M205 SNP.
23andme (probably Y22059) Gjenashaj, Shestan, Montenegro J2b-M205 SNP.

1. Haziri/Dema brotherhood Kosovo, Vulaj north Albania, Hyseni Kosovo. CTS1969+ Y22059+

2. Celo, Cabej, Ruca, Tosk (Ferri et al), Tosk (Sarno et al), Gjirokaster Albania, CTS1969+, Gjirokaster cluster

3. Gogo, Gjirokaster, Albania. 175 Bosch et al Andon Poci Aromun Albania, CTS1969 ?

4. Tirana, central Albania Albanian (Bosch et al), DYS388=12 M205+

5. Arbereshe Italia ISN59 ARB_CAL POL_AREA J-M12+ M205+

The Gjirokaster cluster is also very interesting, considering the TMRCA of both YP13+ and Y22075+ !!
https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/

Lek
05-13-2020, 08:36 PM
I know Mataruga was said to either be Albanian or Vlach, their origin is said to of been modern Montenegro. It's said Macure were either Albanian or Vlach too but with paternal Goth origin and fused into Serbs later. According Sufflay and some others, Montenegro was an area of Albanians and Vlachs, the Serbs or Slavs that settled there seemed to of absorbed some of these Albanians and Vlachs

Lek
05-13-2020, 08:38 PM
Yes J2b-Y22059 is pretty interesting. I believe that there are three Y22059+ Albanians so far, two I believe are from Kosovo and one is from Albania. The Albanian sample on Yfull is one of the guys from Kosovo, he hails from an old Albanian family from Zhegėr in Gjilan that have been in the region for a long time. I do not know where in Kosovo the other sample is from. The sample from Albania is from Lohja e Poshtme (Lower Lohja) in Malėsi e Madhe, if I recall correctly he is rather distant to the other Albanians which suggests an earlier split.

There are some other M205+ samples from Albania who are Y22059-. In Gjirokaster some J2b-CTS1969+ samples have been identified, they could be YP13+ or Y22075+. Interestingly the late Albanian linguist and scholar Eqrem Ēabej belonged to this haplogroup.


Many Albanian families have been in Kosovo for a long time, that they are all recent settlers from Malesia I believe is mainly propaganda. I know my paternal family has been in the region for a long time, but maybe not as long as his, even if we at one point did come from the mountains. Kosova hasn't always been inhabited by people, it has been depopulated and then later both Slavs and Albanians started settling it, Serbs came from Rashka in the 13th century, and there is also mention of Albanians in Kosova around that time. No evidence they had come from Malsia anymore then the Serbs had come from Rashka. Even if all people came there from somewhere else at one point, Albanians from Malsia and Serbs from Rashka, there is an old Albanian element in Kosova too. The number seems to of increased after Ottoman occupation, I think this was mainly from those Albanians already living there having higher birth rates, many of them also became Muslims. Actual migrations from the Malsi weren't recorded until later. So we can claim there are Albanians in Kosova that are old families actually regardless if they trace their origin from the Malsi anymore then the Serbs trace their origin to Rashka, this occurred very early on. Serbs from Rashka/Montenegro started settling Kosova again in 19th and 20th century. First there were families that settled there throughout the Ottoman period from Montenegro, namely Vasojevic for example, then they were also settled there with the colonization program.

Another interesting part is the Morina tribe which originated around Western Kosova or borders with Northern Albania and Shala tribe having tradition of coming from there too or around there. I find it hard to believe that Kosova hasn't supposedly always had an Albanian population somewhat. Same thing with Macedonia, it's Western parts seem to of always had some Albanians.

Kelmendasi
05-13-2020, 08:55 PM
Many Albanian families have been in Kosovo for a long time, that they are all recent settlers from Malesia I believe is mainly propaganda. I know my paternal family has been in the region for a long time, but maybe not as long as his, even if we at one point did come from the mountains. Kosova hasn't always been inhabited by people, it has been depopulated and then later both Slavs and Albanians started settling it, Serbs came from Rashka in the 13th century, and there is also mention of Albanians in Kosova around that time. No evidence they had come from Malsia anymore then the Serbs had come from Rashka. Even if all people came there from somewhere else at one point, Albanians from Malsia and Serbs from Rashka, there is an old Albanian element in Kosova too. The number seems to of increased after Ottoman occupation, I think this was mainly from those Albanians already living there having higher birth rates, many of them also became Muslims. Actual migrations from the Malsi weren't recorded until later. So we can claim there are Albanians in Kosova that are old families actually regardless if they trace their origin from the Malsi anymore then the Serbs trace their origin to Rashka, this occurred very early on. Serbs from Rashka/Montenegro started settling Kosova again in 19th and 20th century. First there were families that settled there throughout the Ottoman period from Montenegro, namely Vasojevic for example, then they were also settled there with the colonization program.

Another interesting part is the Morina tribe which originated around Western Kosova or borders with Northern Albania and Shala tribe having tradition of coming from there too or around there. I find it hard to believe that Kosova hasn't supposedly always had an Albanian population somewhat. Same thing with Macedonia, it's Western parts seem to of always had some Albanians.
Well we know for a fact that there were Albanians in Kosovo since the Middle Ages at least, this is made evident by sources such as the defter of the Sanjak of Shkodra of 1485 which was translated by Albanian scholar Selami Pulaha. However, it is also clear that there was a migration from northern Albania a couple centuries later during the Ottoman period that further reinforced the Albanian-speaking population there. This is the reason why we find Y-DNA clusters associated with the tribes of North Albania in Kosovo, as well as oral tradition of descent from Albania.

As for if Albanians have always been present around Kosovo, personally I believe that some of the major developments of Proto-Albanian took place in the Roman/Byzantine province of Dardania.

Lek
05-13-2020, 09:07 PM
Well we know for a fact that there were Albanians in Kosovo since the Middle Ages at least, this is made evident by sources such as the defter of the Sanjak of Shkodra of 1485 which was translated by Albanian scholar Selami Pulaha. However, it is also clear that there was a migration from northern Albania a couple centuries later during the Ottoman period that further reinforced the Albanian-speaking population there. This is the reason why we find Y-DNA clusters associated with the tribes of North Albania in Kosovo, as well as oral tradition of descent from Albania.

As for if Albanians have always been present around Kosovo, personally I believe that some of the major developments of Proto-Albanian took place in the Roman/Byzantine province of Dardania.

There were Albanians there also when Serbs ruled it. They were recorded for example around Prizren and some other areas and I have read some books from a French historian that claims Albanians existed there and probably were even more numerous then what demographic shows but that the Serbs limited their movements. The Serbian rulers there put taxes on Albanians and seemed to of mistreated them and also limited their movements basically. Same thing for Vlachs.

Yeah, there were migrations from Northern Albania later also but there were also migrations of Serbs from Montenegro later which I have read about from Noel Malcolms book which is never really talked about enough . Serbs also earlier had settled Kosova in the 13th century with their Empire and they also came from a region to what corresponds to today's Montenegro or as it was named Rashka. That they have been the main population since year 600 is a myth or ruling class there is a myth. They also settled Macedonia and Albania with their Empire.

Those Albanians that were recorded very early in Kosova could of come from Malsia too at one point and could still belong to Y-DNA clusters found among North Albanian tribes, only that they split very early. It would still mean they are an old population there. I don't think Kosova has always been inhabited, especially with the Slavic invasions it was depopulated, it's native people seem to of retreated into Northern Albania such as Shala having tradition of coming from Kosova or Morina tribe originating in the highlands of it's Western parts. Then it was basically resettled again later, mainly with Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians through different times.

It would be hard for Dardania to of not had any Proto-Albanians given that some Albanian tribes originate right around the Mountains of Kosova/North Albania, in Ancient times a lot of these people surely must of spilled well into the plains of Kosova. That Albanians only started settling Kosova when Slavs came or Ottomans is nonsense. I think Slavs pushed out a lot of Albanians while absorbing some too, this also seemes to be the conclusion of some historians I am reading, namely Alain Ducellier for example who has done some work on Kosova too. And that Malsia has basically served as a refuge area given it's mountainous terrain where many Albanians became shepherds. And it gave Albanians independence from Slavic and later Ottoman rule. Romans might of pushed some proto-Albanians into the mountains too.

Lek
05-13-2020, 09:36 PM
''Certainly, the Serbian domination seemed heavy to the Albanians subjected; even given the author's clear propaganda intentions, there is undoubtedly truth in what is written, around 1332, a Crusade propagandist, William of Adam: "because the so-called peoples, both Latins and Albanians, are oppressed by the unbearable yoke and the very hard servitude of the lord of the Slavs who is hateful and abominable to them, because their people are charged with taxes, their clergy slaughtered and despised, their bishops and their abbots very often chained, their nobles dispossessed ... All, together and individually, would believe to make their hands sacred if they immersed them in the blood of the aforesaid Slavs''

That Kosovo was majority Slavic when Slavs ruled it is also irrelevant since we can clearly see they oppressed the Albanians and Vlachs that lived there. There are Serbian sources from that time when they ruled that mention how they used Albanians and Vlachs to carry water and used them as Slaves. Other sources mention how the Serb rulers limited also their movements. This seemed to of all changed with arrival of Ottomans. So no wonder the core of Albanians was mountains of Northern Albania where they were more independent. Other regions such as Kosova and plains of Albania ruled by foreign political powers at that time basically reduced the Albanian population and increased the Slavic element.

''Has Serbian domination made the old Ilyro-Albanian population disappear? [B]In fact, it is the Serbian texts themselves which prove us the opposite: in 1348, a donation made by the great tsar Stepan IX Dušan to the monastery of Saints Michael and Gabriel of Prizren proves to us that it existed, probably in the surroundings of this city, at least 9 villages qualified as Albanian (arbanaš) [/ b] [10]. The following year, the famous code promulgated by this same sovereign proves to us that there existed, in number of villages of his domain, alongside the Slavic populations, Wallachian and Albanian elements [/ b] whose dynamism had to to be considerable, since the tsar endeavored to limit their installation on the territories [11]. Note that if the Wallachians and the Albanians are now considered to be nomads, it is certainly not because they are "original pastors", but simply because they have been reduced to this situation by the economic and political pressure of the dominant people; already in 1328, it was the same [b] in the regions of Diabolis, Kolōnée and Ohrid where Jean Cantacuzčne narrates the meeting of the Byzantine emperor Andronic III with the "nomadic Albanians" of central Macedonia [/ b] [12 ]. ''

Kelmendasi
05-13-2020, 10:05 PM
There were Albanians there also when Serbs ruled it. They were recorded for example around Prizren and some other areas and I have read some books from a French historian that claims Albanians existed there and probably were even more numerous then what demographic shows but that the Serbs limited their movements. The Serbian rulers there put taxes on Albanians and seemed to of mistreated them and also limited their movements basically. Same thing for Vlachs.

Yeah, there were migrations from Northern Albania later also but there were also migrations of Serbs from Montenegro later which I have read about from Noel Malcolms book which is never really talked about enough . Serbs also earlier had settled Kosova in the 13th century with their Empire and they also came from a region to what corresponds to today's Montenegro or as it was named Rashka. That they have been the main population since year 600 is a myth or ruling class there is a myth. They also settled Macedonia and Albania with their Empire.

Those Albanians that were recorded very early in Kosova could of come from Malsia too at one point and could still belong to Y-DNA clusters found among North Albanian tribes, only that they split very early. It would still mean they are an old population there. I don't think Kosova has always been inhabited, especially with the Slavic invasions it was depopulated, it's native people seem to of retreated into Northern Albania such as Shala having tradition of coming from Kosova or Morina tribe originating in the highlands of it's Western parts. Then it was basically resettled again later, mainly with Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians through different times.

It would be hard for Dardania to of not had any Proto-Albanians given that some Albanian tribes originate right around the Mountains of Kosova/North Albania, in Ancient times a lot of these people surely must of spilled well into the plains of Kosova. That Albanians only started settling Kosova when Slavs came or Ottomans is nonsense. I think Slavs pushed out a lot of Albanians while absorbing some too, this also seemes to be the conclusion of some historians I am reading, namely Alain Ducellier for example who has done some work on Kosova too. And that Malsia has basically served as a refuge area given it's mountainous terrain where many Albanians became shepherds. And it gave Albanians independence from Slavic and later Ottoman rule. Romans might of pushed some proto-Albanians into the mountains too.
Yes, there were Albanians present there during Serb rule as well.

As far as I know, Serbo-Montenegrins began migrating to Kosovo at roughly the same time as the Albanians from North Albania. The historical region of Raška only included northeastern Montenegro, the rest of the region was located in southwestern Serbia. Today this region roughly corresponds to Sandžak.

For the most part the Kosovar Albanians that belong to the same clusters as Albanians from the tribes of North Albania should be descended from the migrants that arrived during the period of Ottoman rule. This is supported by oral traditions and tribal identification. Some clusters for sure may have split off earlier though.

I think we need to take the oral traditions of tribes such as the Shala, Shoshi etc with a grain of salt. For example we know from Ottoman defters and records that tribes such as the Shoshi should have formed in their present locations during the Middle Ages. However, what they may suggest is an earlier movement of people from the region which was remembered by some.

Lek
05-13-2020, 10:23 PM
Yes, there were Albanians present there during Serb rule as well.

As far as I know, Serbo-Montenegrins began migrating to Kosovo at roughly the same time as the Albanians from North Albania. The historical region of Raška only included northeastern Montenegro, the rest of the region was located in southwestern Serbia. Today this region roughly corresponds to Sandžak.

For the most part the Kosovar Albanians that belong to the same clusters as Albanians from the tribes of North Albania should be descended from the migrants that arrived during the period of Ottoman rule. This is supported by oral traditions and tribal identification. Some clusters for sure may have split off earlier though.

I think we need to take the oral traditions of tribes such as the Shala, Shoshi etc with a grain of salt. For example we know from Ottoman defters and records that tribes such as the Shoshi should have formed in their present locations during the Middle Ages. However, what they may suggest is an earlier movement of people from the region which was remembered by some.


It's not said that Shala tribe originated in Kosova but that their founders supposedly came from Kosova as they seeked refuge there as far as I know. What's interesting is that it corresponds to a similar time frame when Slavs invaded the Balkans unless I am wrong. And then that the tribe was founded in the Malsi. Another version I have heard is that the Shala tribe came from the same place as the Morina tribe, around the highlands of Western Kosova/North Eastern Albania or the Rugova highlands in Western Kosova. Considering that there is already an Albanian tribe there such as Morina it is very plausible. But all Albanian and Serb tribes originated in mountain areas of Montenegro and Malsia more or less though part of Malsia or Albanian tribal area certainly seems to stretch into mountains of Western Kosova and Western Macedonia. I think for Albanians it was some people seeking refuge. And they lived an independent life in the mountains free from Slavic rule or other foreign rule which seemed to of been oppressive if anything.

I don't think Albanians immediately started immigrating from Northern Albania right after Ottoman conquest, I think this started in the 17th century and later based on historical records whereas Kosova already had an Albanian Catholic and Muslim population before that and I haven't seen much evidence to suggest they were recent migrants anymore then that the Serbs had settled from Rashka. Now many generations later these Albanians must of had children and grown to a considerable number. So therefore a certain % of Albanians in Kosova today must be an old population also and didn't all arrive in the 17th century or later as the Serbian version claims. They might of arrived from somewhere else at one point before that but this certainly must of occurred before the Ottoman conquest for example. And Serbs also arrived from Rashka. It's not like people have sprouted out of the ground in Kosova. Considering Slavs mass invaded the Balkans, I have a hard time believing it was always inhabited by people though it's possible the highlands of Rugova in it's Western parts continously had some Albanians. It's possible there were Albanians also living there when the Bulgarians ruled it for example. And that some of the Albanian population is well from that time also. And you are right that maybe even they might not of come from the Malsia at least not recently. A split could of occurred much earlier. The old Albanian population in Kosova seemed to of joined Malsor tribes though once the Malsors started settling in Kosova.


There were also the Dukagjini principality according to some books I read that extended their rule in Kosova when the Serbian empire had crumbled or started to crumble, this was right before full Ottoman take over. I think history is recorded by the winners and there is a lot of history that isn't being properly told or that has been deleted.

https://i.imgur.com/maDpDLu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TfOp2T8.jpg

Johane Derite
05-13-2020, 10:31 PM
There were also the Dukagjini principality according to some books I read that extended their rule in Kosova when the Serbian empire had crumbled or started to crumble, this was right before full Ottoman take over. I think history is recorded by the winners and there is a lot of history that isn't being properly told or that has been deleted.



Ottomans destroyed a lot. Skanderbeg's father had possessions in Prizren, Dukagjin, and even Prishtina:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4NjAgrXsAArMsB?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Lek
05-13-2020, 10:36 PM
Ottomans destroyed a lot. Skanderbeg's father had possessions in Prizren, Dukagjin, and even Prishtina:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4NjAgrXsAArMsB?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

YEah, I think also Serb nationalists have done a job of destroying a lot. They also killed Sufflay later after all who wrote about Albanians. They fill wikipedia with their propaganda sources claiming Leke Dukagjini now was born in Mirdita, no mention how his principality included Kosova. According to some sources, Kosova at that time frame seems to of been a mix of Albanians and Slavs also. There seem also old Albanian churches in Kosova that were turned into Serbian by the Serbs. Those other demographic breakdowns aren't all reliable especially when you take into consideration some of these Ottoman demographics were done based on religion and not ethnicity and it's hard to determine people's ethnicity based on names since Albanians easily had Slavic names back then.

it's also possible some Albanians lived in Kosova when Bulgarians also ruled it and that some of the Albanian population in Kosova might even be as old as that. Though we don't have a demographic breakdown of the region during that time, all it says is that the region was Bulgarian and not Serb who's land was more north. It's plausible Albanians lived in Kosova even during Bulgarian rule given that there even seems to of been an Albanian village in Bulgaria itself during that rule as far as I know, it was named ''Arbanas'' .

Hawk
05-13-2020, 10:37 PM
Vlachs might be Dacian, i think I2a2 was one of the main Dacian lineages.

Kelmendasi
05-13-2020, 10:45 PM
It's not said that Shala tribe originated in Kosova but that their founders supposedly came from Kosova as they seeked refuge there as far as I know. What's interesting is that it corresponds to a similar time frame when Slavs invaded the Balkans unless I am wrong. And then that the tribe was founded in the Malsi. Another version I have heard is that the Shala tribe came from the same place as the Morina tribe, around the highlands of Western Kosova/North Eastern Albania or the Rugova highlands in Western Kosova. Considering that there is already an Albanian tribe there such as Morina it is very plausible. But all Albanian and Serb tribes originated in mountain areas of Montenegro and Malsia more or less though part of Malsia or Albanian tribal area certainly seems to stretch into mountains of Western Kosova and Western Macedonia. I think for Albanians it was some people seeking refuge. And they lived an independent life in the mountains free from Slavic rule or other foreign rule which seemed to of been oppressive if anything.

I don't think Albanians immediately started immigrating from Northern Albania right after Ottoman conquest, I think this started in the 17th century and later based on historical records whereas Kosova already had an Albanian Catholic and Muslim population before that and I haven't seen much evidence to suggest they were recent migrants anymore then that the Serbs had settled from Rashka. Now many generations later these Albanians must of had children and grown to a considerable number. So therefore a certain % of Albanians in Kosova today must be an old population also and didn't all arrive in the 17th century or later as the Serbian version claims. They might of arrived from somewhere else at one point before that but this certainly must of occurred before the Ottoman conquest for example. And Serbs also arrived from Rashka. It's not like people have sprouted out of the ground in Kosova. Considering Slavs mass invaded the Balkans, I have a hard time believing it was always inhabited by people though it's possible the highlands of Rugova in it's Western parts continously had some Albanians.


There were also the Dukagjini principality according to some books I read that extended their rule in Kosova when the Serbian empire had crumbled or started to crumble, this was right before full Ottoman take over. I think history is recorded by the winners and there is a lot of history that isn't being properly told or that has been deleted.

https://i.imgur.com/maDpDLu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TfOp2T8.jpg
Yes, the Shala believe that their ancestor, Mark Diti, had originally come from the area of Pashtrik which is located on the border of northeastern Albania and southwestern Kosovo. A specific time frame is not given as far as I am aware. However, the main aspects of the oral tradition are not true. We know that the Shala, Shoshi and Mirdita (Spaēi, Oroshi and Kushneni) all belong to separate Y-DNA haplogroups, so they cannot share the same paternal ancestor, whom in oral tradition is Dit Murri. Though as I said previously, the claim of descent from Pashtrik could be an older memory of a movement of peoples from that area.

The movement of Albanians into Kosovo during the Ottoman period may have happened as early as the 16th century, though as you stated it took speed during the 17th century.

Based on linguistics, there should have been a Proto-Albanian-speaking population in the region between the 1st and 7th centuries AD. This is suggested by the fact that it's during this time frame the Proto-Albanians were in contact with an Eastern Romance-speaking population, that is usually referred to as Proto-Romanian. This contact should have occurred roughly around the province of Dardania.

Lek
05-13-2020, 10:55 PM
Yes, the Shala believe that their ancestor, Mark Diti, had originally come from the area of Pashtrik which is located on the border of northeastern Albania and southwestern Kosovo. A specific time frame is not given as far as I am aware. However, the main aspects of the oral tradition are not true. We know that the Shala, Shoshi and Mirdita (Spaēi, Oroshi and Kushneni) all belong to separate Y-DNA haplogroups, so they cannot share the same paternal ancestor, whom in oral tradition is Dit Murri. Though as I said previously, the claim of descent from Pashtrik could be an older memory of a movement of peoples from that area.

The movement of Albanians into Kosovo during the Ottoman period may have happened as early as the 16th century, though as you stated it took speed during the 17th century.

Based on linguistics, there should have been a Proto-Albanian-speaking population in the region between the 1st and 7th centuries AD. This is suggested by the fact that it's during this time frame the Proto-Albanians were in contact with an Eastern Romance-speaking population, that is usually referred to as Proto-Romanian. This contact should have occurred roughly around the province of Dardania.

I don't think it's claimed that they share a common paternal ancestor though I don't know as I haven't looked enough into it, what I know it's claimed that there was a population movement from that place as you mentioned also.

Yeah I agree with what you said, so we can conclude there was an old Albanian population in Kosova and also later migrations. My ancestors probably did come from the Malsi but I assume this must of occurred very early like 16th century since we have no memory of coming from somewhere else and even my great grandfather told us we have lived there for as long as we can remember. It depends on the split of my Y-DNA , I remember most of my matches outside Kosova weren't any closer then 500 years unless I am wrong.

I think mainly that Albanians haven't always made up the majority there after Slavs came is largely due to oppression as I quoted earlier from a French historian, they seem to of limited the movements of Albanians for example and taxed them. It just never allowed for the growth of an Albanian population + also the fact that some people fused into the Slavs. It seemed to of basically eventually reversed though. He also, like Noel Malcolm, claimed Albanians or proto-Albanians were some of the original people of Dardania and that Slavic domination there reduced it's native people basically.

As I updated my post I also mentioned that Bulgarians ruled Kosova before the Serbs and that there might of lived Albanians in Kosova then too since there seemed to of lived Albanians back then even in Bulgaria who probably migrated there from modern Albanian lands.

Kelmendasi
05-13-2020, 11:20 PM
I don't think it's claimed that they share a common paternal ancestor though I don't know as I haven't looked enough into it, what I know it's claimed that there was a population movement from that place as you mentioned also.

Yeah I agree with what you said, so we can conclude there was an old Albanian population in Kosova and also later migrations. My ancestors probably did come from the Malsi but I assume this must of occurred very early like 16th century since we have no memory of coming from somewhere else and even my great grandfather told us we have lived there for as long as we can remember. It depends on the split of my Y-DNA , I remember most of my matches outside Kosova weren't any closer then 500 years unless I am wrong.

I think mainly that Albanians haven't always made up the majority there after Slavs came is largely due to oppression as I quoted earlier from a French historian, they seem to of limited the movements of Albanians for example and taxed them. It just never allowed for the growth of an Albanian population + also the fact that some people fused into the Slavs. It seemed to of basically eventually reversed though. He also, like Noel Malcolm, claimed Albanians or proto-Albanians were some of the original people of Dardania and that Slavic domination there reduced it's native people basically.

As I updated my post I also mentioned that Bulgarians ruled Kosova before the Serbs and that there might of lived Albanians in Kosova then too since there seemed to of lived Albanians back then even in Bulgaria who probably migrated there from modern Albanian lands.
The progenitor of the Shala (Mark Diti) is believed to have been the brother of the founder of the Shoshi (Zog Diti) and the founder of the three bajraks of Mirdita (Mir Diti). They were all the sons of a certain Dit Murri and the grandsons of Murr Deti/Dedi. Murr Deti is also the supposed distant ancestor of the Berisha and Mėrturi.

Should also be remembered that the Proto-Albanians were more of a transhumant and pastoral population. They weren't as settled as the Slavs that had arrived, the vast majority of whom were farmers.

Lek
05-13-2020, 11:36 PM
The progenitor of the Shala (Mark Diti) is believed to have been the brother of the founder of the Shoshi (Zog Diti) and the founder of the three bajraks of Mirdita (Mir Diti). They were all the sons of a certain Dit Murri and the grandsons of Murr Deti/Dedi. Murr Deti is also the supposed distant ancestor of the Berisha and Mėrturi.

Should also be remembered that the Proto-Albanians were more of a transhumant and pastoral population. They weren't as settled as the Slavs that had arrived, the vast majority of whom were farmers.

I was speaking about Morina mainly and their supposed relation to those tribes. I know Morina aren't paternally related to those though a movement from that region where is Morina could of taken place or not. Or that founders of Shala came from Kosova though I do not see whats unbelievable about such a theory given that migrations from Kosova and into Northern Albania did take place rather than only one way.

Regarding Albanians being nomads and pastoral, I think this was mainly due to political pressure from the dominant people such as the Slavs that established their empires as I quoted earlier from a French historian rather than Albanians originally being always pastoral or nomads. They were pressured into becoming so.

I also like many historians who I have read think Albanians were the original people of Kosova or Dardania or some of it's original people with Proto-Romanians living in the Eastern parts of Dardania or East Balkans and in contact with proto-Albanians in its central parts. Slavic domination reduced the Albanian population, with arrival of Bulgarians and then later Serbs expanded their empire south, though as mentioned there were still some Albanians living there. Albanians weren't always it majority due to Slavs who limited the movements of Albanians, taxed them etc and this seemed to of caused hardship for Albanians and Vlachs causing them to be nomads or become pastoral. If not for Slavs it would of been Albanian most of it's history most likely or Albanian-Vlach. Therefor the Serbian argument holds no basis that Slavs were more numerous there when they ruled it therefore it must be Slavic, this was mainly because they ruled it and oppressed it's native people. Not to mention Serbs not establishing themselves there until the 13th century. One can also see afterwards Albanian principalities establishing power in Kosova and after Ottoman occupation especially an Albanian population increase which seemed to of allowed for more growth of an Albanian population. So to think that Kosova or Macedonia are some foreign lands to Albanians and Albanians are some invaders from the Slavic point of view is certainly nonsense when if not for Slavs it would of probably always of been Albanian or had a dominant Albanian population.

Kelmendasi
05-14-2020, 12:32 AM
I was speaking about Morina mainly and their supposed relation to those tribes. I know Morina aren't paternally related to those though a movement from that region where is Morina could of taken place or not. Or that founders of Shala came from Kosova though I do not see whats unbelievable about such a theory given that migrations from Kosova and into Northern Albania did take place rather than only one way.

Regarding Albanians being nomads and pastoral, I think this was mainly due to political pressure from the dominant people such as the Slavs that established their empires as I quoted earlier from a French historian rather than Albanians originally being always pastoral or nomads. They were pressured into becoming so.

I also like many historians who I have read think Albanians were the original people of Kosova or Dardania or some of it's original people with Proto-Romanians living in the Eastern parts of Dardania or East Balkans and in contact with proto-Albanians in its central parts. Slavic domination reduced the Albanian population, with arrival of Bulgarians and then later Serbs expanded their empire south, though as mentioned there were still some Albanians living there. Albanians weren't always it majority due to Slavs who limited the movements of Albanians, taxed them etc and this seemed to of caused hardship for Albanians and Vlachs causing them to be nomads or become pastoral. If not for Slavs it would of been Albanian most of it's history most likely or Albanian-Vlach. Therefor the Serbian argument holds no basis that Slavs were more numerous there when they ruled it therefore it must be Slavic, this was mainly because they ruled it and oppressed it's native people. Not to mention Serbs not establishing themselves there until the 13th century. One can also see afterwards Albanian principalities establishing power in Kosova and after Ottoman occupation especially an Albanian population increase which seemed to of allowed for more growth of an Albanian population. So to think that Kosova or Macedonia are some foreign lands to Albanians and Albanians are some invaders from the Slavic point of view is certainly nonsense when if not for Slavs it would of probably always of been Albanian or had a dominant Albanian population.
From what I have read, the Morina believe that they had come from Mirditė and that they shared common ancestry with the Spaēi, Kushneni and Oroshi. So they claim a more distant origin from Pashtrik. What's interesting is that I do not think those tribes claim common ancestry with the Morina. There is little literature on the tribe though so I may be wrong. I do not think that a migration from Kosovo isn't possible, in fact I have said that this collective memory suggests that there may have been an early movement from the region into the highlands of North Albania.

I personally do not believe that political pressure from the Slavs was the reason as to why the early Albanians or Proto-Albanians were primarily pastoralists. The Slavs were only really able to impose themselves later on. The linguistic evidence suggests that, even prior to Slavic contact, the Proto-Albanians should have been a pastoral group that lived in a highland region that was abundant in coniferous plants as well as other vegetation such as shrubs. This is supported by the fact that terms related to animal husbandry and pastoralism are native, whilst most of the terms related to farming are loaned. Also words for conifers, oak etc are native. However, the migration of the Slavs into the region may have caused the Proto-Albanains to further retain their pastoral way of life for a longer period of time. Now whether or not the Pre-Proto-Albanians were pastoral is hard to say, but in my opinion they too should have been to a large degree.

Lek
05-14-2020, 02:43 AM
From what I have read, the Morina believe that they had come from Mirditė and that they shared common ancestry with the Spaēi, Kushneni and Oroshi. So they claim a more distant origin from Pashtrik. What's interesting is that I do not think those tribes claim common ancestry with the Morina. There is little literature on the tribe though so I may be wrong. I do not think that a migration from Kosovo isn't possible, in fact I have said that this collective memory suggests that there may have been an early movement from the region into the highlands of North Albania.

I personally do not believe that political pressure from the Slavs was the reason as to why the early Albanians or Proto-Albanians were primarily pastoralists. The Slavs were only really able to impose themselves later on. The linguistic evidence suggests that, even prior to Slavic contact, the Proto-Albanians should have been a pastoral group that lived in a highland region that was abundant in coniferous plants as well as other vegetation such as shrubs. This is supported by the fact that terms related to animal husbandry and pastoralism are native, whilst most of the terms related to farming are loaned. Also words for conifers, oak etc are native. However, the migration of the Slavs into the region may have caused the Proto-Albanains to further retain their pastoral way of life for a longer period of time. Now whether or not the Pre-Proto-Albanians were pastoral is hard to say, but in my opinion they too should have been to a large degree.

While there have always lived Albanians in the highlands as pastoralists obviously, I was talking mainly about the Albanians that lived in the plains rather than highlands since there is records of Albanians living in the plains too, and that the number of Albanians in the plains was reduced due to Slavs and other foreigners establishing their power there. While people in the mountains were more independent from foreign or government rule.

Pastoralist words are native , so are a lot of words for animals and fruits such as Dardha for example which actually grows abundant in Kosova. Dalmatians seem to of been mainly pastoralists too or shepherds and Dardanians were mainly pastoralists too or miners I believe since there is mention of shepherding or cheese in the region at least. Obviously people must of had other type of jobs too in a government controlled region rather than all living the same type of life.


But a lot of messed up things have ocurred in the Balkans, except for the Slavs invading it, you had the Romans invade it and you had all these type of plaques and earthquakes etc which could of killed off a lot of it's native people.

Lek
05-14-2020, 02:54 AM
Ottomans destroyed a lot. Skanderbeg's father had possessions in Prizren, Dukagjin, and even Prishtina:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4NjAgrXsAArMsB?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

According to Noel Malcolm the Kastrioti family originated in Western Kosova also.

''Malcolm, Noel (1998), Kosovo : a short history, New York: New York University Press, p. 88, ISBN 9780814755983, OCLC 37310785, Skanderbeg (meaning 'Lord Alexander'; Alb.: Skenderbeu) was the Turkish name given to an Albanian nobleman, Gjergj Kastriot, whose family, originally from Western Kosovo, controlled extensive lands in north-central Albania.''


I think a lot of the wiki sections need to be update even the whole history of Kosovo, some of these Albanian parts need to be added including the Dukagjini part.

Lek
05-14-2020, 05:13 AM
Regarding the Morina tribe , this is what I read on their wiki, sources come mainly from Robert Elsie , The Tribes of Albania

''The Morinas were a tribe in the sense of a fis, i.e. a community that is aware of common blood ties and of common history reaching back to one male ancestor. According to oral tradition, they seem to trace a common origin with the Mirdita tribe.[1] The Mirditans, Shala (tribe) and Shoshi (region) trace their origin to the Pashtrik mountain on the Kosovo-Albanian border, not far from Morina territory which leads to assume that while the Mirditans left their original home, the smaller Morinas stayed closer.[3][4][4][4]''

Though it's obvious by Y-DNA that they do not seem to share a common origin with those Mirditors nor with Shaljans as far as I know it doesn't rule out a population movement from the Pashtrik. Some other Albanian tribes such as Gashi etc aren't far away from the Kosovo-Albania border anyway.

Hawk
05-14-2020, 07:49 AM
What Y-DNA do Morina's usually carry?

Kelmendasi
05-14-2020, 12:00 PM
What Y-DNA do Morina's usually carry?
So far I believe only four have tested: E-Y145455 from around Mitrovica, R-Z2705 from around Prizren, R-Z2705>Y133384 from around Gjakova, and J-Y21045 from around Kukės.

Lek
05-14-2020, 04:44 PM
Though it is sometimes hard to establish what are loan words and what are not given that some of these common words could also be from a common IE root, it is believed that 60% of the Albanian vocabulary is from Latin supposedly, this influence couldn't of only occurred in highlands or mountains. Proto-Albanians clearly must of also lived in the plains during Roman rule and were not so isolated and there is early Roman Latin influence that shows contact with other Balkan Latin people supposedly. It is only with arrival of Slavs that Albanians have become mainly people from the highlands and pastoralists while there were Proto-Albanian people that had already been pastoralists in the highlands this clearly increased with the arrival of the Slavs.

Native words can also be lost for example in a government controlled area where a foreign language or empire is imposed on the people living there and it's people adopt foreign elements whereas in the highlands people lived more of a independent life and possibly retained some of the native words for the lifestyle they lived. Once a people become more isolated or adopt to a different environment over a long period of time certain words can also be lost. Though I still think many of the Illyrians had largely been shepherds including the Dardanians, Dalmatians etc rather than farmers. And Only few were sea people. Also lots of Albanian words for fruits are obviously native such as ''Dardhe'' meaning pear that still grow in the Balkans, especially Kosova, though some of these also appear similar to Latin such as ''Molle'' meaning Apple which is similar to some Romance languages ''Mela'' etc. This does not neccessarily mean that proto-Albanians did not know what an apple was or supposedly lived in an area where there were none. It could also be a common IE word or that they simply adopted such a foreign influence when they were exposed to Latin and that they weren't really that isolated. Same thing for fish which also seems latin. Word for friend also seems to be a latin loan word ''Mik'' etc. Strawberry seems native etc. though not sure.

Therefore I wouldn't reach to conclusion on what are loan words or not as I think this had a lot to do with what were government controlled areas influencing its subjects whereas the highlands were less so and that the language therefore became a combination of both foreign influence in the plains + retaining some of it's pastoralist nativity in mountain areas, It's also inaccurate to establish the origin of a people based on only language.

Lek
05-14-2020, 05:21 PM
What I am saying basically is, while some maritime Albanian words are native, at least it seems to me, there are also words that are possibly loan words this does not mean that Albanians did not live near the sea or even in plains or were farmers but that in those areas they were exposed to a foreign people or a foreign government control and adopted those words basically while words for activities from the highlands where people were more independent were retained. Some of it might also be common IE words. Some words from the sea, shore, boat etc definitely seem to be native and not loanwords also.

Except for it's mountain areas, The West Balkans was like for at least 800 years under Roman rule, it is enough for a people to lose a lot of it's native words both maritime and anything to do with activities in the plains where there was a foreign government control. Whereas with the Slavic invasions and arrival of the Slavs Albanians probably became even more isolated. It's also possible it's people lost words from there too that had anything to do with maritime or the plains or farmery and later adopted certain words from Slavic.

Both farming and pastoralism can also be done in any type of open land unless I am wrong, it is also possible Albanians never chose to be mainly farmers, at least in the highlands.

Kelmendasi
05-14-2020, 06:50 PM
Though it is sometimes hard to establish what are loan words and what are not given that some of these common words could also be from a common IE root, it is believed that 60% of the Albanian vocabulary is from Latin supposedly, this influence couldn't of only occurred in highlands or mountains. Proto-Albanians clearly must of also lived in the plains during Roman rule and were not so isolated and there is early Roman Latin influence that shows contact with other Balkan Latin people supposedly. It is only with arrival of Slavs that Albanians have become mainly people from the highlands and pastoralists while there were Proto-Albanian people that had already been pastoralists in the highlands this clearly increased with the arrival of the Slavs.

Native words can also be lost for example in a government controlled area where a foreign language or empire is imposed on the people living there and it's people adopt foreign elements whereas in the highlands people lived more of a independent life and possibly retained some of the native words for the lifestyle they lived. Once a people become more isolated or adopt to a different environment over a long period of time certain words can also be lost. Though I still think many of the Illyrians had largely been shepherds including the Dardanians, Dalmatians etc rather than farmers. And Only few were sea people. Also lots of Albanian words for fruits are obviously native such as ''Dardhe'' meaning pear that still grow in the Balkans, especially Kosova, though some of these also appear similar to Latin such as ''Molle'' meaning Apple which is similar to some Romance languages ''Mela'' etc. This does not neccessarily mean that proto-Albanians did not know what an apple was or supposedly lived in an area where there were none. It could also be a common IE word or that they simply adopted such a foreign influence when they were exposed to Latin and that they weren't really that isolated. Same thing for fish which also seems latin. Word for friend also seems to be a latin loan word ''Mik'' etc. Strawberry seems native etc. though not sure.

Therefore I wouldn't reach to conclusion on what are loan words or not as I think this had a lot to do with what were government controlled areas influencing its subjects whereas the highlands were less so and that the language therefore became a combination of both foreign influence in the plains + retaining some of it's pastoralist nativity in mountain areas, It's also inaccurate to establish the origin of a people based on only language.
There were multiple different stages in the development of Albanian that spanned different time frames, certain stages may have developed in different geographic areas than the others. Linguist Vladimir Orel distinguished Proto-Albanian into two different periods: Early Proto-Albanian which was spoken before the 1st century AD and still had not received any Latin influence, and Late Proto-Albanian which was spoken after extensive contact with Latin-speakers and ended with contact with Slavic-speakers during the 6th and 7th centuries AD. So you could hypothesize that Orel's Early Proto-Albanian wasn't necessarily spoken in a highland region by a pastoral population, but evidence from Late Proto-Albanian seems to suggest that during this particular stage it was.

Then there are other linguists that have different periods and breakdowns, such as Ranko Matasović who broke the stages of Albanian into: Pre-Proto-Albanian which is similar to Orel's Early Proto-Albanian but in this breakdown contact with Latin-speakers occurred as early as the 1st century BC, Early Proto-Albanian which was spoken prior to Slavic contact and the Geg-Tosk split is believed to have occurred at this stage, Late Proto-Albanian which was spoken prior to contact with the Ottomans, and Early Albanain which ends sometime during the 19th century.

Sure we cannot establish the origin of a people based solely on linguistics, however when it comes to the origin of the Albanians we have little to work with. Linguistic reconstruction can provide a lot of insight, though I think that in this case aDNA from the region will be more informative than anything else.

Kelmendasi
05-14-2020, 07:36 PM
Regarding the Morina tribe , this is what I read on their wiki, sources come mainly from Robert Elsie , The Tribes of Albania

''The Morinas were a tribe in the sense of a fis, i.e. a community that is aware of common blood ties and of common history reaching back to one male ancestor. According to oral tradition, they seem to trace a common origin with the Mirdita tribe.[1] The Mirditans, Shala (tribe) and Shoshi (region) trace their origin to the Pashtrik mountain on the Kosovo-Albanian border, not far from Morina territory which leads to assume that while the Mirditans left their original home, the smaller Morinas stayed closer.[3][4][4][4]''

Though it's obvious by Y-DNA that they do not seem to share a common origin with those Mirditors nor with Shaljans as far as I know it doesn't rule out a population movement from the Pashtrik. Some other Albanian tribes such as Gashi etc aren't far away from the Kosovo-Albania border anyway.
This is what Elsie wrote on the Morina:

"The Morina were a small tribe located in the highlands of Gjakova along the present Albania-Kosovo border. Morina tribal territory bordered on the traditional tribal lands of Gashi to the west, Bytyēi to the southwest and Hasi to the south. The present border post between Albania and Kosovo, known as Qafė Morinė (Morina Pass), is on Morina territory, but the Morina subsequently settled in various parts of Kosovo, in particular in Gjakova, Kamenica and Gjilan. They seem to trace their origin from Mirdita. The Morina were a tribe in the sense of a fis, i.e. a community that is aware of common blood ties and of a common history reaching back to one male ancestor".

The part from the Wikipedia page that states that the Morina stayed whilst the others left may be from some other source, or maybe even oral tradition. Information on the tribe is scarce and Elsie himself makes many erroneous statements in his book, so I can't say for certain. However, in the defter of the sanjak of Shkodra of 1485 the village Morina is recorded. The inhabitants primarily have typical Albanian anthroponyms such as Gjon, Gjin, Leka etc. There is also the village Morina Barani that's recorded around Peja.

Lek
05-14-2020, 11:16 PM
Some interesting parts I found from this site http://countrystudies.us/albania/14.htm

Read the whole thing

''For about four centuries, Roman rule brought the Illyrian-populated lands economic and cultural advancement and ended most of the enervating clashes among local tribes. The Illyrian mountain clansmen retained local authority but pledged allegiance to the emperor and acknowledged the authority of his envoys. During a yearly holiday honoring the Caesars, the Illyrian mountaineers swore loyalty to the emperor and reaffirmed their political rights. A form of this tradition, known as the kuvend, has survived to the present day in northern Albania.''

''The Romans established numerous military camps and colonies and completely latinized the coastal cities. They also oversaw the construction of aqueducts and roads, including the Via Egnatia, a famous military highway and trade route that led from Durrės through the Shkumbin River valley to Macedonia and Byzantium (later Constantinople --see Glossary). Copper, asphalt, and silver were extracted from the mountains. The main exports were wine, cheese, oil, and fish from Lake Scutari and Lake Ohrid. Imports included tools, metalware, luxury goods, and other manufactured articles. Apollonia became a cultural center, and Julius Caesar himself sent his nephew, later the Emperor Augustus, to study there.

Illyrians distinguished themselves as warriors in the Roman legions and made up a significant portion of the Praetorian Guard. Several of the Roman emperors were of Illyrian origin, including Diocletian (284-305), who saved the empire from disintegration by introducing institutional reforms, and Constantine the Great (324-37)--who accepted Christianity and transferred the empire's capital from Rome to Byzantium, which he called Constantinople. Emperor Justinian (527-65)--who codified Roman law, built the most famous Byzantine church, the Hagia Sofia, and reextended the empire's control over lost territories- -was probably also an Illyrian. ''

As it says, It is logical that in the plains and coastal areas people became Latinized or heavily Latin influenced while in the mountains they maintained their independence more so. Albanian without a doubt is at least a partially if not majority Latin language or Latinized. Only small parts seem to of retained it's nativity.

Though I am skeptical about the parts claiming name Albanian comes from Albanoi when it seems to come from Latin meaning mountains. Or that the name Arbereshe comes from Albanoi. There were other similar names in the region such as ''Abri''. The later name ''Shqiptar'' is unknown though you have the name Shkup and the name Scutari or something. Though it could be possible these names only came from a tribe came later to be applied to all the people that lived there.

Kelmendasi
05-15-2020, 12:46 AM
Some interesting parts I found from this site http://countrystudies.us/albania/14.htm

Read the whole thing

''For about four centuries, Roman rule brought the Illyrian-populated lands economic and cultural advancement and ended most of the enervating clashes among local tribes. The Illyrian mountain clansmen retained local authority but pledged allegiance to the emperor and acknowledged the authority of his envoys. During a yearly holiday honoring the Caesars, the Illyrian mountaineers swore loyalty to the emperor and reaffirmed their political rights. A form of this tradition, known as the kuvend, has survived to the present day in northern Albania.''

''The Romans established numerous military camps and colonies and completely latinized the coastal cities. They also oversaw the construction of aqueducts and roads, including the Via Egnatia, a famous military highway and trade route that led from Durrės through the Shkumbin River valley to Macedonia and Byzantium (later Constantinople --see Glossary). Copper, asphalt, and silver were extracted from the mountains. The main exports were wine, cheese, oil, and fish from Lake Scutari and Lake Ohrid. Imports included tools, metalware, luxury goods, and other manufactured articles. Apollonia became a cultural center, and Julius Caesar himself sent his nephew, later the Emperor Augustus, to study there.

Illyrians distinguished themselves as warriors in the Roman legions and made up a significant portion of the Praetorian Guard. Several of the Roman emperors were of Illyrian origin, including Diocletian (284-305), who saved the empire from disintegration by introducing institutional reforms, and Constantine the Great (324-37)--who accepted Christianity and transferred the empire's capital from Rome to Byzantium, which he called Constantinople. Emperor Justinian (527-65)--who codified Roman law, built the most famous Byzantine church, the Hagia Sofia, and reextended the empire's control over lost territories- -was probably also an Illyrian. ''

As it says, It is logical that in the plains and coastal areas people became Latinized or heavily Latin influenced while in the mountains they maintained their independence more so. Albanian without a doubt is at least a partially if not majority Latin language or Latinized. Only small parts seem to of retained it's nativity.

Though I am skeptical about the parts claiming name Albanian comes from Albanoi when it seems to come from Latin meaning mountains. Or that the name Arbereshe comes from Albanoi. There were other similar names in the region such as ''Abri''. The later name ''Shqiptar'' is unknown though you have the name Shkup and the name Scutari or something. Though it could be possible these names only came from a tribe came later to be applied to all the people that lived there.
There actually does seem to be a connection between the Illyric tribal name Albanoi and the old Albanian ethnonym Arban and its other derivatives. Certain linguists have suggested that Arban is in fact just a derivative of the word alban that has undergone rhotacism, so the root is in fact alb.

In Latin, alba or albus actually meant "white" rather than "mountain". Though it's believed that the name of the Alps is either ultimately derived from the Latin albus or another word that stems from Proto-Indo-European *h₂elbʰós/albʰós (white). There is also an alternate theory that states that alb was a Pre-Indo-European word for "hill", not sure how accurate it is though.

As for the ethnonym Shqiptar, the most convincing theory is that it is a derivative of the word shqipoj/shqiptoj ("to speak clearly"). Those words are believed to have ultimately come from the Latin excipere. Though as you say, there is a theory that puts forward the idea that Shqiptar actually comes from the toponym Scupi.

Lek
05-15-2020, 01:38 AM
Nah, it supposedly specifically mentions them in 600s AD.:

" Ragusan sources, published by Makushev in "Research on the Chronicle of Ragusa," (12) claim that the Dukagjinis were known as the Dukagjinis of Arbania in the seventh century and ruled over the Albanian part of Montenegro (Piperi, Vasojevich, Podgorica and Kuchi, i.e. Zeta). They apparently rose in revolt against the Slavic invaders but were put down by Bosnian chieftains. In 695 they attempted to interfere in domestic Ragusan issues but were repulsed again and submitted to the local Slavic leaders. Their pride and self-confidence hindered them from creating family ties with the Slavs whom they regarded as below their dignity. As the Chronicle puts it: "compari per sempre non accattarono che infra loro." (13)"


In his testament, Gjon Muzhaka writes with great fantasy on the origins of the Dukagjinis, alleging that they stemmed from Troy and emigrated to France. Two brothers from this dynasty, on the other hand, are thought to have emigrated to Italy during the Crusades. One of them is said to have been the founder of the Este dynasty, the other returned and settled in Zadrima near Shkodra and founded the Dukagjinis.

Closest to the truth in this tangled net of fables and legends is, in our view, the report of a Byzantine chronicler of the seventh century. He states that at the end of the fifth century, a tribe of Goths under their leader Duke Gentius (or Genusius or Gjin) penetrated into the Shkodra region from Dalmatia and settle there. Compelled to react to this new reality, the Byzantine Emperor made Gjin his Sebastocrator, also calling him a magister militum from Dalmatia. This Gentius is said to have set up a realm between Shkodra and Durrės, (14) which proved to be to the liking of the rural population because it adapted Gothic laws to those of the local tribes. The connection of the name Dukagjini to the code of customary law in the Albanian mountains, the so-called Canon or Kanun of Lekė Dukagjini, would seem to derive from this, such that the Goth in question may be regarded as the ancestor of the Dukagjinis. This, at least, would seem more likely than the above-mentioned legends."

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1956_Vlora/index.html

So Albanians were for the first time mentioned in year 600 and not 11th century ? And in Montenegro ?

Lmao this is insane , history needs to be rewritten. This should all be added on to wikipedia pages of history and origin of Albanians. We need to do much more work and add these sources. If somebody could take their time to please do this.


I always found it odd how Albanians were ''suddenly'' mentioned around 12th or 13th century in Dalmatia which contradicted always the Serbian theory (propaganda and lies) that around that time our core was central Albania supposedly, but now I know the answer.


Though I would take the supposed Norman or Goth origin of the Dukagjini with a grain of salt and not anymore serious than oral traditions of Albanian tribes claiming descent from each other but Goths did settle there and seemed to of fused into an Albanian-Vlach population basically.



It also makes a lot of sense, some Albanian and Vlach tribes were early on mentioned in Montenegro which people here already posted , Macure tribe is claimed by some also to of either been Albanian or Vlach that lived in Montenegro, they match Albanians also, and paternally it's possible they were Goths that settled the area and fused into Albanian-Vlach population.

There is also mention of some other tribes as posted by some members here

Lek
05-15-2020, 07:51 AM
In case some people doubt the historical presence of the Dukagjin in Kosova; I think another example of the presence of the Dukagjin in Kosova is it's Western parts of the region being referred to historically by the Albanian population as Dukagjin (or Rrafshi Dukagjinit to distinguish it from the highlands of Dukagjini in Northern Albania). It was only in the late Ottoman years with the creation of the so called ''Kosovo vilajet'' (which was a bigger region) that the whole region came to be called ''Kosovo/Kosova'' . Whereas Metohija or Metoch seems to be Greek/Byzantium.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Map2344.png/800px-Map2344.png

Maleschreiber
05-16-2020, 01:30 AM
What I am saying basically is, while some maritime Albanian words are native, at least it seems to me, there are also words that are possibly loan words this does not mean that Albanians did not live near the sea or even in plains or were farmers but that in those areas they were exposed to a foreign people or a foreign government control and adopted those words basically while words for activities from the highlands where people were more independent were retained. Some of it might also be common IE words. Some words from the sea, shore, boat etc definitely seem to be native and not loanwords also.


The whole argument that because Albanian is lacking nautical terms either from Illyrian are at least from ancient Greek via intensive language contact, it somehow means that it didn't develop as coastal language is a very limited argument because it assumes that nautical terminology is part of the stable lexicon of a language - but it isn't because it is professional terminology, thus it can be only part of the lexicon of communities which relied on nautical professions. The argument was put forward by Bulgarian linguist Georgiev in 1966 and it's a very weak one.

So, in Italian most nautical terms don't come from Latin but from medieval Venetian or Genoese because these two city-states were maritime superpowers of the era and in Greek more than half of nautical terms also come from Venetian. Would anyone say that Italian-speaking and Greek-speaking communities didn't live close to coastal areas but came there from some undefined mountainous area?

Kelmendasi
05-17-2020, 05:45 PM
I have come across a paper by Albanian ethnologist Mark Tirta called Testimonies to the Migrations of the Population from Kosova into Mirditė, which covers the oral traditions from the tribal and ethnographic region of Mirdita claiming origin from Kosovo.

Apparently it isn't only the tribes of Kushneni, Spaēi and Oroshi that claim descent from Pashtrik, but also the Dibrri, a part of the Fani, and the three bajraks of Lezha (Vela, Manatia and Bulgri). It's also stated that certain families from the region would rent pastures around Pashtrik and claimed kinship with families from Gjakovė.

As for why they fled from Pashtrik or the area of Gjakova, the locals claim that they were fleeing the Turks:

"All the oral traditions which we were able to collect and know for the object in question connect the coming of these inhabitants into Mirditė with the circumstances of the Turkish occupation. As reasons for the migration are given... "they went away to escape extermination by the invaders", "they didn't want to convert", "they wanted to escape the economic exploitation by the invaders". But there exists also a variant saying that these inhabitants fought in the ranks of the Turkish army, and as a reward the Ottoman administration have given them lands to exploit these unpopulated territories".

There also seem to be some documents from the 15th and 17th centuries that confirm a movement of Albanians from the area of Pashtrik into Mirdita. For example, it's stated that there was a document from the Kadi of the Sanjak of Dukagjin (this covered much of the modern-day Lezha County) which states that some families had arrived in 1432 to Mirdita. Some of these individuals are also mentioned by name: Gegė Doē Ēekali, Gegė Doē Leka, Gegė Bardhi, Gegė Kola and Lukė Beku.

olive picker
05-19-2020, 04:03 PM
Ottomans destroyed a lot. Skanderbeg's father had possessions in Prizren, Dukagjin, and even Prishtina:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4NjAgrXsAArMsB?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

What do you guys think of the theory that the Kastrioti family is in fact of Kosovo-Albanian origin, related to the Kastrati tribe? I remember reading some very good evidence a while ago, and Noel Malcom holds to this position.

vettor
05-19-2020, 04:49 PM
The whole argument that because Albanian is lacking nautical terms either from Illyrian are at least from ancient Greek via intensive language contact, it somehow means that it didn't develop as coastal language is a very limited argument because it assumes that nautical terminology is part of the stable lexicon of a language - but it isn't because it is professional terminology, thus it can be only part of the lexicon of communities which relied on nautical professions. The argument was put forward by Bulgarian linguist Georgiev in 1966 and it's a very weak one.

So, in Italian most nautical terms don't come from Latin but from medieval Venetian or Genoese because these two city-states were maritime superpowers of the era and in Greek more than half of nautical terms also come from Venetian. Would anyone say that Italian-speaking and Greek-speaking communities didn't live close to coastal areas but came there from some undefined mountainous area?

your missing the point, it is not nautical terms, but if you live on the coast, you will/must have a fleet ..................etruscans traded in the eastern med.............myceneans traded in istria and Sicily, conquered Crete etc ...............the Dorians conquered the myceneans and their islands ( including Crete ) with their fleet ...............

the 4 fleets of medieval Italy ( Venetians, Genoese, Amalfi and Pisa ) all spoke a different language.............which terms do you refer to ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_flags#/media/File:Naval_Ensign_of_Italy.svg

shield divided into four squares representing the four Maritime Republics: Venice (represented by the lion, top left), Genoa (top right), Amalfi (bottom left), and Pisa (represented by their respective crosses).

vettor
05-19-2020, 05:14 PM
Though it is sometimes hard to establish what are loan words and what are not given that some of these common words could also be from a common IE root, it is believed that 60% of the Albanian vocabulary is from Latin supposedly, this influence couldn't of only occurred in highlands or mountains. Proto-Albanians clearly must of also lived in the plains during Roman rule and were not so isolated and there is early Roman Latin influence that shows contact with other Balkan Latin people supposedly. It is only with arrival of Slavs that Albanians have become mainly people from the highlands and pastoralists while there were Proto-Albanian people that had already been pastoralists in the highlands this clearly increased with the arrival of the Slavs.

Native words can also be lost for example in a government controlled area where a foreign language or empire is imposed on the people living there and it's people adopt foreign elements whereas in the highlands people lived more of a independent life and possibly retained some of the native words for the lifestyle they lived. Once a people become more isolated or adopt to a different environment over a long period of time certain words can also be lost. Though I still think many of the Illyrians had largely been shepherds including the Dardanians, Dalmatians etc rather than farmers. And Only few were sea people. Also lots of Albanian words for fruits are obviously native such as ''Dardhe'' meaning pear that still grow in the Balkans, especially Kosova, though some of these also appear similar to Latin such as ''Molle'' meaning Apple which is similar to some Romance languages ''Mela'' etc. This does not neccessarily mean that proto-Albanians did not know what an apple was or supposedly lived in an area where there were none. It could also be a common IE word or that they simply adopted such a foreign influence when they were exposed to Latin and that they weren't really that isolated. Same thing for fish which also seems latin. Word for friend also seems to be a latin loan word ''Mik'' etc. Strawberry seems native etc. though not sure.

Therefore I wouldn't reach to conclusion on what are loan words or not as I think this had a lot to do with what were government controlled areas influencing its subjects whereas the highlands were less so and that the language therefore became a combination of both foreign influence in the plains + retaining some of it's pastoralist nativity in mountain areas, It's also inaccurate to establish the origin of a people based on only language.

Mela as in apple is only a southern Italian term ( naples and campania areas ) ........northern italians use Pomo as apple and still use it today ..............from old latin Pomum .............french from old Latin is Pomme

In latin Molle means soft ..............where you going with this ?

Dorkymon
05-19-2020, 05:21 PM
Mela as in apple is only a southern Italian term ( naples and campania areas ) ........northern italians use Pomo as apple and still use it today ..............from old latin Pomum .............french from old Latin is Pomme

In latin Molle means soft ..............where you going with this ?

In Romanian "măr" from Latin "melus" means apple, while "pom" from Latin "pomus" apple tree. Pom can also be used for any kind of fruit bearing tree.

Kelmendasi
05-19-2020, 06:01 PM
What do you guys think of the theory that the Kastrioti family is in fact of Kosovo-Albanian origin, related to the Kastrati tribe? I remember reading some very good evidence a while ago, and Noel Malcom holds to this position.
I personally believe that theory that the Kastrioti family hailed from the tribal region of Kastrat in Malėsi is unlikely. As far as I am aware, the actual theory doesn't even claim that the Kastrioti came from the Kastrati of Malėsi, but rather the village of Kastrat in the ethnographic region of Hasi in northeastern Albania, which today is considered to be a branch of the Kastrati of Malėsia. This theory was held even by 17th century Albanian Catholic bishop and scholar Frang Bardhi. Problem is that we know that the Kastrati only formed as a tribe or community in the 15th century, this means that they could not have arrived in Hasi prior to the 15th century. The first individual bearing the name Kastrioti is mentioned in the 14th century. Further more, a village called Kastrat in the region of Hasi or northeastern isn't recorded in the defter of the sanjak of Shkodra of 1485 that also included villages of northeastern Albania and even Kosovo.

I think that the names just share a common etymology from the Latin word castrum/castra (castle or fortress). Should also be noted that the Kastrioti also used the last name Mazreku, which in my opinion may be their original name. Mazrek itself was a name common across all Albanian-speaking areas during the Middle Ages.

I personally believe that theories suggesting an origin from the regions of Mati or Dibra are most likely, this is even suggested by contemporary sources such as Barleti. This paper is a good read in regards to the origins of the Kastrioti https://www.academia.edu/35052779/Reflektime_mbi_origjin%C3%ABn_e_Kastriot%C3%ABve.

Cascio
05-19-2020, 06:12 PM
Mela as in apple is only a southern Italian term ( naples and campania areas ) ........northern italians use Pomo as apple and still use it today ..............from old latin Pomum .............french from old Latin is Pomme

In latin Molle means soft ..............where you going with this ?

"Mela" is the Standard Italian word for "apple", not just Southern Italian.

Maleschreiber
05-19-2020, 06:40 PM
Getting back to the discussion's subject, the Mataruga/e is another Albanian tribe of Herzegovina/southern Dalmatia. Now, we didn't know much about this community until the translation of the defter of the sanjak of Novi Pazar. In 1477, because of Ottoman expansion they had left their original homeland in Old Herzegovina and settled near Prijepolje where they formed a nahiya with these settlements: Dobroja Bukur, Brezna, Gurovik, Kashic-Gashic, Ivraҫa, Skuka, Lutiҫ, Gorna Luka, Ostoga-Ustoga (the head settlement) in which a leader is also listed Vojko Arbanash. There are also three other settlements which formed a distinct community: Dorin, Gjelinc, Dorina of the nahiya of Kukan which also included the abandoned settlements of Dranҫ and Dardaҫa(Dardhaҫa).

They are first mentioned in Janjina (southern Dalmatia) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janjina) in 1222 and their homeland is considered by Jirecek to have been the area of Grahovo, Nikšić in Montenegro (Old Herzegovina). Other branches from this tribe settled in present-day Misoča (Bosnia) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miso%C4%8Da), where families still claim ancestry from them (would be interesting to have results from that area) and the toponym Motorugin Han is found.

The toponyms indicate some pretty common medieval placenames (Brezna=fir tree, Gur=rock, Bukur=beautiful, plentiful) and the leader's name displays the ethnonym Arban. I find interesting the use of Brez-na instead of Bredh-na. Again, we see them same leftover /z/ from older forms of Albanian like in Burmazi.

Kelmendasi
05-19-2020, 06:44 PM
Getting back to the discussion's subject, the Mataruga/e is another Albanian tribe of Herzegovina/southern Dalmatia. Now, we didn't know much about this community until the translation of the defter of the sanjak of Novi Pazar. In 1477, because of Ottoman expansion they had left their original homeland in Old Herzegovina and settled near Prijepolje where they formed a nahiya with these settlements: Dobroja Bukur, Brezna, Gurovik, Kashic-Gashic, Ivraҫa, Skuka, Lutiҫ, Gorna Luka, Ostoga-Ustoga (the head settlement) in which a leader is also listed Vojko Arbanash. There are also three other settlements which formed a distinct community: Dorin, Gjelinc, Dorina of the nahiya of Kukan which also included the abandoned settlements of Dranҫ and Dardaҫa(Dardhaҫa).

They are first mentioned in Janjina (southern Dalmatia) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janjina) in 1222 and their homeland is considered by Jirecek to have been the area of Grahovo, Nikšić in Montenegro (Old Herzegovina). Other branches from this tribe settled in present-day Misoča (Bosnia) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miso%C4%8Da), where families still claim ancestry from them (would be interesting to have results from that area) and the toponym Motorugin Han is found.

The toponyms indicate some pretty common medieval placenames (Brezna=fir tree, Gur=rock, Bukur=beautiful, plentiful) and the leader's name display the ethnonym Arban. I find interesting the use of Brez-na instead of Bredh-na. Again, we see them same leftover /z/ from older forms of Albanian.
Nice find and great job with the Wikipedia page on the tribe!

Do you have a digital copy of the defter of the sanjak of Novi Pazar of 1477? Would like to have a look at it.

As for results, a couple of Serbian brotherhoods from Old Herzegovina and nearby areas that are supposedly originally from the Mataruga have tested as E-A18844. They all share a common paternal ancestor that lived ~1,100ybp. As far as I am aware, A18844 has not yet been found among the Albanians from the Balkans but has been found in an Arbėreshė sample from a study. There are other clusters under Z19851 that have been found in Albanians. An Albanian from Kosovo that derives his paternal origin from the anas Bobi branch of Thaē has tested as Z19851>FT146201. There are also some Z19851+ samples from the Shoshi tribe, I think there was talks that they could be related to A18844. Not sure.

Maleschreiber
05-19-2020, 07:16 PM
Nice find and great job with the Wikipedia page on the tribe!

Do you have a digital copy of the defter of the sanjak of Novi Pazar of 1477? Would like to have a look at it.

As for results, a couple of Serbian brotherhoods from Old Herzegovina and nearby areas that are supposedly originally from the Mataruga have tested as E-A18844. They all share a common paternal ancestor that lived ~1,100ybp. As far as I am aware, A18844 has not yet been found among the Albanians from the Balkans but has been found in an Arbėreshė sample from a study. There are other clusters under Z19851 that have been found in Albanians. An Albanian from Kosovo that derives his paternal origin from the anas Bobi branch of Thaē has tested as Z19851>FT146201. There are also some Z19851+ samples from the Shoshi tribe, I think there was talks that they could be related to A18844. Not sure.

I have gathered information from different translators: Ibrahim Pasic (2005) and Iljaz Rexha (2015) have translated various parts. I can send you their papers. I was thinking of filing a request for the original (in CD form) in Ottoman Turkish, but the COVID-19 situation has made all intl. mail very difficult. Also, if you're looking for the defter of the sanjak of Herzogovina (which mentions Burmazi) a Serbo-Croatian translation can be found here (http://www.montenet.org/2002/bozo.html).

Very interesting. Galaty (2013) writes about the Bobi (before they moved to the area of Thaēi):

"The Bob (or Bop) tribe is more clearly distinct. Originally and still in the Nicaj neighborhood of Shala, it has only a few households. When the Shalas moved into the valley, they found Bob there, in addition to a number of other tribes (listed above) whom the Shala tribesmen expelled. Most of the Bob fis moved, under pressure from Shala, to the Puka region, in the Firė and Kokė-Dodė villages, with perhaps yet further extensions to Kaēanik in Kosova. Ernesto Armao's 1933 commentary on Gaspari noted that the village had only 13 houses as of 1905, and the Austrian census of 1918 also found only 12 houses and 73 persons. Armao reported that they were considered part of the Shala tribe, although he also notes the tradition that the inhabitants of Bob were descended from a people predating the Shala fis."

It is also interesting that there is an Arvanite settlement named Varibobi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varympompi) (Bobi's tomb). One could suppose that a part of them had settled in Greece by the time Shala (late 15th century) arrived in the area, so they were already too few to not get absorbed in Shala eventually. UPDATE: It turns out (as archival records posted below by Exercitus show) that Varibobi was related to a tribe of southern Albania named Varibobi.

vettor
05-19-2020, 07:44 PM
"Mela" is the Standard Italian word for "apple", not just Southern Italian.

yes, it is since unification 1870ish

Exercitus
05-19-2020, 08:02 PM
The Defter of the Vilayet of Hercegovina it is here;

https://vdocuments.site/alicic-s-ahmed-poimenicni-popis-sandzaka-vilajeta-hercegovina-1477-god.html

Regarding the inhabitants in the Nahija Mataruga (page 44-45 in the Defter), judging by their anthroponymy, there is a clear Vlachic\Vlasi component - names with the suffix: - ul, - un (even, although rarely observed, the - ush suffix) are typical of the Vlachs, also this onomastics Bokur\Bukur, Dodo\Dodoje, Dida etc are observed among the Vlachs as well !!

37659


37660

Maleschreiber
05-19-2020, 08:30 PM
In 1477, the Mataruga tribe had left Old Herzegovina and was in Prijepolje in the Sanjak of Novi Pazar. The Mataruga nahija I was referring to is recorded in the sanjak of Novi Pazar.

This Mataruga nahija in Old Herzegovina was not inhabited by the tribe but by other communities which had moved and filled the "vacuum". The radically different anthroponymy makes it very clear that the nahiya of Mataruga in Old Herzegovina only retained the name but not the population. We also know this because a branch of the Mataruga tribe from Prijepolje moved further east to Kraljevo and carried the tribal name there too.

On the other hand, the people who had settled in Old Mataruga weren't related at all to the tribe, so the name got lost. I agree that their names show Vlach influence.

Exercitus
05-19-2020, 08:44 PM
Than yes, i guess that the Albanian origin of this tribe\people it's still a valid hypothesis !
About the Arvanite Varibobi in Greece i think that they are descendants of the Albanian Varibobi from the Albanian-speaking villages with the same name in Korce, Permet, Mallakaster, Janina !

37661

Maleschreiber
05-19-2020, 09:08 PM
Than yes, i guess that the Albanian origin of this tribe\people it's still a valid hypothesis !
About the Arvanite Varibobi in Greece i think that they are descendants of the Albanian Varibobi from the Albanian-speaking villages with the same name in Korce, Permet, Mallakaster, Janina !

37661

Very interesting. That makes any talk about Bobi-Bopi of Shala being related to Arvanite Varibobi extremely unlikely. I found the name to recorded in Gavalla (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavalla), Euboea in the 15th century as Martin Varbob along with Mihal Gika, Gin Karavana, Domenika Krieziya, Nikola Kuc, Luci Kalanci. It does raise an interesting point though: an anthroponym based on -Bobi/Bopi was present among pre-Ottoman Albanians across regions. I wonder if there is any etymology which has been put forward about it.

I don't think that it is a hypothesis anymore about Mataruga. I don't see how a community with a leader named Vojko Arbanash can be of anything else other than of Albanian origin.

Cascio
05-19-2020, 09:17 PM
yes, it is since unification 1870ish

I'm sure great Tuscan writers like Dante would have written "mela" for "apple" and not "pomo" as in the North.

Nino90
05-19-2020, 09:34 PM
I'm sure great Tuscan writers like Dante would have written "mela" for "apple" and not "pomo" as in the North.

I have been to Tuscany many times and never heard the word pomo for apples. Must be more northern.

Erlembaldo
05-19-2020, 10:45 PM
It is also interesting that there is an Arvanite settlement named Varibobi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varympompi) (Bobi's tomb). One could suppose that a part of them had settled in Greece by the time Shala (late 15th century) arrived in the area, so they were already too few to not get absorbed in Shala eventually. UPDATE: It turns out (as archival records posted below by Exercitus show) that Varibobi was related to a tribe of southern Albania named Varibobi.

I wonder if it's also related to the Arberesh surname Varipapa.

Maleschreiber
05-20-2020, 02:11 AM
I wonder if it's also related to the Arberesh surname Varipapa.

Varibobi is a compound according to the most accepted etylogy of "varri" (tomb) + "Bobi". So "Varipapa" means "priest's tomb" and is an indication of the territory of this community and its fis name prior to it settling in Italy. It is interesting about what it indicates about early medieval Albanian names and toponyms. Many ruins of early medieval settlements in Albania show a pattern of the settlement to have formed around a church and a burial area attached to the church.

vettor
05-20-2020, 05:12 AM
I'm sure great Tuscan writers like Dante would have written "mela" for "apple" and not "pomo" as in the North.

he wrote Pomo

https://i.postimg.cc/nM8Sjsxz/pomo.png (https://postimages.org/)

Italian is the youngest language in Italy, it did not come out of Vulgar Latin , like the far older regional Italian languages

Cascio
05-20-2020, 07:21 AM
he wrote Pomo

https://i.postimg.cc/nM8Sjsxz/pomo.png (https://postimages.org/)

Italian is the youngest language in Italy, it did not come out of Vulgar Latin , like the far older regional Italian languages

Thanks for the Dante quote.

Of course, ALL Romance languages are developments from Vulgar Latin.

Standard Italian is essentially (not entirely) based on the Florentine Tuscan literature of Dante, Boccaccio, Petrarch etc.

Your detail about "pomo/mela" is interesting.
Another example of a more Southern word in Standard Italian is "ragazzo" for "boy" which came from Rome.

Tuscans would say "bimbo" (some still do) for "boy" and "bimba" for "girl".

Also, Tuscans often use "ora" for "now" against "adesso" in Standard Italian and "nulla" rather than "niente" for "nothing".

"Babbo" for "dad" is very common still in Tuscany.

vettor
05-20-2020, 05:58 PM
Thanks for the Dante quote.

Of course, ALL Romance languages are developments from Vulgar Latin.

Standard Italian is essentially (not entirely) based on the Florentine Tuscan literature of Dante, Boccaccio, Petrarch etc.

Your detail about "pomo/mela" is interesting.
Another example of a more Southern word in Standard Italian is "ragazzo" for "boy" which came from Rome.

Tuscans would say "bimbo" (some still do) for "boy" and "bimba" for "girl".

Also, Tuscans often use "ora" for "now" against "adesso" in Standard Italian and "nulla" rather than "niente" for "nothing".

"Babbo" for "dad" is very common still in Tuscany.

Veneti say

Toso for ragazzo

Desso for now

Putei for children

Pare is father, Mare is mother or use papa and mama ......never ever use, padre and madre as they are religious term for priests and nuns

Mar is the sea

Pietro Bembo made a major change to Dante works in the 16th century

Kelmendasi
05-29-2020, 10:27 PM
One could suppose that a part of them had settled in Greece by the time Shala (late 15th century) arrived in the area, so they were already too few to not get absorbed in Shala eventually. UPDATE: It turns out (as archival records posted below by Exercitus show) that Varibobi was related to a tribe of southern Albania named Varibobi.
A settlement called Pop/Bop is recorded in the defter of the Sanjak of Shkodra of 1485 just to the south of Shala (Nicaj Shalė). I think it's pretty clear that this settlement was founded by and belonged to the Bobi tribe that previously lived in the Shala tribal territory.

The following individuals are recorded in the village:
1) Gjon, son of Xhovan
2) Lukal, son of Kabil
3) Dom Gjoni
4) Lukan, son of Stanisha
5) Marin, son of Draniē

Scar
06-03-2020, 05:39 AM
Varibobi is a compound according to the most accepted etylogy of "varri" (tomb) + "Bobi". So "Varipapa" means "priest's tomb" and is an indication of the territory of this community and its fis name prior to it settling in Italy. It is interesting about what it indicates about early medieval Albanian names and toponyms. Many ruins of early medieval settlements in Albania show a pattern of the settlement to have formed around a church and a burial area attached to the church.

There is also an Arvanite village named Varibobi in Euboea.
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_6.htm#1
Varibobi is considered a Slavic placename by Max Vasmer, even though niether Attica or Euboea fell under Slavic rule (the regions did have an insignificant Slavic presence though). I find it hard to believe this is all a coincidence. I favour an Albanian origin for the name.

Kelmendasi
06-04-2020, 04:41 PM
I have recently read a work by Albanian scholar Idriz Ajeti titled: Contribution to the study of the Mediaeval onomastics in the territory of Montenegro, Bosnja and Hercegovina, and Kosova. The work is included in the book The Albanians and their territories, which also includes other interesting works in regards to the Albanians.

In this work, Ajeti states that the village of Butmir near Sarajevo, Bosnia, may in fact have an Albanian etymology. The village is recorded in 1455 with the name Budmir, and also in 1485 as Budmire. According to Ajeti and other scholars that are referenced, the name is a compound of two Albanian words; botė (earth/soil) and mirė (good). According to this, the name essentially means "good soil" or "good earth" and refers to land that is fertile or good for cultivation. Personally, whilst I think that this may very well be the correct etymology, I think that it could also be derived from the Slavic name Budimir.

It is also stated that toponyms such as Ligata and Ligatići could be derived or explained through the Albanian word ligatė. Ajeti believes that the word ligatė, from which these toponyms are supposedly derived from, is a derivative of the Albanian lagatė which in turn is a derivative of the word lag (wet) with the suffix -atė. So the word is supposed to denote a marshy or wet place and is not related to the other Albanian word ligatė which is used to denote an illness or ailment.

Scar
06-04-2020, 08:24 PM
Vlachs might be Dacian, i think I2a2 was one of the main Dacian lineages.

Not likely. And Vlachs diverge from each other.

---
Just curious is the name Leka found in non Albanian countries (of Balkan)?

Kelmendasi
06-04-2020, 08:48 PM
Not likely. And Vlachs diverge from each other.

---
Just curious is the name Leka found in non Albanian countries (of Balkan)?
As far as I know, the name Leka or Lekė is only used among Albanians, though you can find it in the version of a last name in groups that have been influenced by or were originally Albanian-speaking. For example, in Montenegro (especially the east and south) you can find a number of people with the surname Leković.

TuaMan
06-05-2020, 11:05 PM
Serbs/Montenegrins also seem to have used Leka as well (Aleksander Rankovic went by it as a nick-name). Anyone have any theories on Gjoka/Djoko? Serb/Montenegrins, Albanians, and even Macedonians I think use it.

Kelmendasi
06-06-2020, 12:03 AM
Serbs/Montenegrins also seem to have used Leka as well (Aleksander Rankovic went by it as a nick-name). Anyone have any theories on Gjoka/Djoko? Serb/Montenegrins, Albanians, and even Macedonians I think use it.
I believe it's the result of influence from Albanian-speaking populations, we do not see Serbs (those without influence from Albanians) in any of the records use Leka or Lekė as a personal name. The name Leka itself is the traditional Albanian variant of the name Alexander or Aleksander, the traditional Serbian variant of this name is Aleks.

As for Gjoka, the etymology of this name is still uncertain. I have seen a claim on Wiktionary which states that the name is a continuation of the Illyrian name *Glaukias, however I do not know what this claim is based on. It has also been argued that it may be a variant of the Albanian name Gjon, or even the Serbian name Đorđe (Djordje). Personally I am uncertain as to the origin of the name, but what is clear is that this name was typical of the Albanians.