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lifeisdandy
04-05-2020, 05:38 PM
Is it possible that the basal lineages of J1-p58 were then carried over to abyssians and from there into yemen? And then from yemen to the rest of the arabian peninsula?

drobbah
04-05-2020, 06:19 PM
Is it possible that the basal lineages of J1-p58 were then carried over to abyssians and from there into yemen? And then from yemen to the rest of the arabian peninsula?

J1-P58 in the Horn originated in Yemen and came over with South Semitic speakers.The J1 in Somalia are descendants of more recent assimilated Yemeni migrants.

lifeisdandy
04-05-2020, 06:34 PM
J1-P58 in the Horn originated in Yemen and came over with South Semitic speakers.The J1 in Somalia are descendants of more recent assimilated Yemeni migrants.

Ok so it wasnt the other way around? So how did basal j1-p58 come into egypt? Sinai?

drobbah
04-05-2020, 07:05 PM
I'm not sure about the history of J1 in Egypt but I'm 100% sure that the Horn didn't receive any Semitic migration from the North

Jatt1
04-05-2020, 07:14 PM
Is it possible that the basal lineages of J1-p58 were then carried over to abyssians and from there into yemen? And then from yemen to the rest of the arabian peninsula?

Most likely first from Caucasus or from northern Iran then to fertile crescent and then from there to further south and west.

thejkhan
04-06-2020, 06:26 AM
Is it possible that the basal lineages of J1-p58 were then carried over to abyssians and from there into yemen? And then from yemen to the rest of the arabian peninsula?

Doubt it. The Arabian peninsula has the most diverse presence of J1 itself. Apart from J1a (including both branches of P58), there's J1b (Yemen) and J1c (new YFull sample from KSA) in the Arabian peninsula.

So it's most likely the other way around - Yemen to the Horn.

Jatt1
04-06-2020, 07:59 AM
Doubt it. The Arabian peninsula has the most diverse presence of J1 itself. Apart from J1a (including both branches of P58), there's J1b (Yemen) and J1c (new YFull sample from KSA) in the Arabian peninsula.

So it's most likely the other way around - Yemen to the Horn.

Let us see if you can solve this puzzle then. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3698/

thejkhan
04-06-2020, 08:14 AM
Let us see if you can solve this puzzle then. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3698/

What exactly are you contesting?

Jatt1
04-06-2020, 08:52 AM
What exactly are you contesting?

Not contesting anything but looking for information. There was a kit on yfulltree 11/18/2019 New sample YF66089 in subclade J-Z1853* from Russia Chechenia, it shows up no more. Kit from India belongs to my brother. I thought you may have better knowledge and may help to solve the puzzle, just trying to find my roots, nothing else.

thejkhan
04-06-2020, 09:25 AM
Not contesting anything but looking for information. There was a kit on yfulltree 11/18/2019 New sample YF66089 in subclade J-Z1853* from Russia Chechenia, it shows up no more. Kit from India belongs to my brother. I thought you may have better knowledge and may help to solve the puzzle, just trying to find my roots, nothing else.

As you have figured out I'm sure, your clade is likely associated with IE migrations because the sample closest to your lineage is Norwegian. Just speculating now - maybe it's part of the same migration that took the Chechen J-Z1853* northward across the Northern Caucasus mountains.

The Saite
04-06-2020, 12:59 PM
An Egyptian - Arabian route through Levant is more plausible , There have been multiple evidences of Egyptian presence in Arabia going back as far as the iron and bronze ages. (I'm referring to Taymaa's Ramses the III inscriptions).
see The Egyptian cultural impact on north-west Arabia in the second and first millennia BC (https://www.jstor.org/stable/41623650?seq=1)

The Saite
04-06-2020, 01:16 PM
Doubt it. The Arabian peninsula has the most diverse presence of J1 itself. Apart from J1a (including both branches of P58), there's J1b (Yemen) and J1c (new YFull sample from KSA) in the Arabian peninsula.

So it's most likely the other way around - Yemen to the Horn.

well , Oil Rich Arabian countries are way over represented on Y-Full and FT-DNA . In general They are only characterized by having Multiply primarily young lines under J-L858 Clade (Late Bronze age formation and arrival to there).
While The More older lineages than that level , Could be potentially linked to a proposed some Early diffusion (different from the late one) to the area , Coming from Taurus/Zagrous regions itself. you may find this paper interesting (J Chiaroni ‏2010) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/)

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fejhg.2009.166/MediaObjects/41431_2010_Article_BFejhg2009166_Fig1_HTML.jpg

lifeisdandy
04-06-2020, 01:31 PM
well , Oil Rich Arabian countries are way over represented on Y-Full and FT-DNA . In general They are only characterized by having Multiply primarily young lines under J-L858 Clade (Late Bronze age formation and dispersal to there).
While The More older lineages than that level , Could be potentially linked to a proposed some Early diffusion (different from the late one) to the area , Coming from Taurus/Zagrous regions itself. you may find this paper interesting (J Chiaroni ‏2010) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/)

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fejhg.2009.166/MediaObjects/41431_2010_Article_BFejhg2009166_Fig1_HTML.jpg
Yes most likely coptic j1-p58 was and is an old Egyptian line that showed up through early semitic dispersals into Egypt through the levant or even pre-semitic with Iran_chalc people.

Kelmendasi
04-06-2020, 01:52 PM
well , Oil Rich Arabian countries are way over represented on Y-Full and FT-DNA . In general They are only characterized by having Multiply primarily young lines under J-L858 Clade (Late Bronze age formation and dispersal to there).
While The More older lineages than that level , Could be potentially linked to a proposed some Early diffusion (different from the late one) to the area , Coming from Taurus/Zagrous regions itself. you may find this paper interesting (J Chiaroni ‏2010) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/)

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fejhg.2009.166/MediaObjects/41431_2010_Article_BFejhg2009166_Fig1_HTML.jpg
This and the fact that the oldest J-M267+ sample was found in a Paleolithic sample from Georgia suggests an origin north of the Arabian Peninsula.

The Saite
04-06-2020, 01:58 PM
Let us see if you can solve this puzzle then. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3698/

Jatt , If you allowed me to express my opinion in your result's .
I think that your lineage is maybe more related to an Eastern diffusion of the Iranian farmers/Herders towards Central and south Asia.
Geoksyer and Gonor as well as Swat_valley old remains (From Narasimhan 2019) already carried some J-PF4816 and J-Y6304 clades ,

This process is marked culturally with the foundation of series of cultures related with a Strong Iranian Connection in the Area (as an example ; the Anau Culture in Turkiminstan in Late Neolithic) .
regarding the Nordic sample with you , I recall that (Lazardis 2016) paper have detected an (Iranian_chalc like) component reaching Yamnaya in the bronze age. Hence comes the relationship ,
1-) He belongs to a group migrated north from the wide (Iran/Caucasus) area .
2-) And you belongs to an Eastern diffusion to Central and South_Asia .

hope to have helped with my Thoughts

lifeisdandy
04-06-2020, 04:05 PM
This and the fact that the oldest J-M267+ sample was found in a Paleolithic sample from Georgia suggests an origin north of the Arabian Peninsula.

was that sample j1-p58?

Kelmendasi
04-06-2020, 04:22 PM
was that sample j1-p58?
No, the sample was J-Y6305. The Yemeni sample that is J1b on Yfull is Y6305>Y6304>Y19093 which rather suggests a migration from the north to the Arabian Peninsula rather than vice versa. The oldest P58+ sample found thus far was from Early Bronze Age Jordan (ʿAyn Ghazal), the sample was P58>Z2324.

Here's a map made by user Agamemnon showing J1 aDNA https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkOvU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G&ll=31.988%2C35.976&z=5

Shamash
04-07-2020, 07:52 AM
What a pity that we have to rely on a paper that is 10 years old (Chiaroni 2010). I mean it's still valid but howcome that since then no geneticist has been interested in one of the most important lineages of the Middle East? We still have no aDNA from the Arabian peninsula and Mesopotamia - what a shame. While the rough dispersal is clear we lack so many facets that could help us reconstruct the history of J-P58.

lifeisdandy
04-07-2020, 01:54 PM
What a pity that we have to rely on a paper that is 10 years old (Chiaroni 2010). I mean it's still valid but howcome that since then no geneticist has been interested in one of the most important lineages of the Middle East? We still have no aDNA from the Arabian peninsula and Mesopotamia - what a shame. While the rough dispersal is clear we lack so many facets that could help us reconstruct the history of J-P58.

European lines take precedence.

ShpataEMadhe
04-16-2020, 10:10 AM
No, the sample was J-Y6305. The Yemeni sample that is J1b on Yfull is Y6305>Y6304>Y19093 which rather suggests a migration from the north to the Arabian Peninsula rather than vice versa. The oldest P58+ sample found thus far was from Early Bronze Age Jordan (ʿAyn Ghazal), the sample was P58>Z2324.

Here's a map made by user Agamemnon showing J1 aDNA https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkOvU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G&ll=31.988%2C35.976&z=5

Ok in terms of origin that may be "important" but in terms of giving an identity to a dna group, a tribe, you have to say that J1 P58 is an Arab tribe marker. Very early dna is not so important, populations were insignifant at the time, its all about when these dna groups formed together and held down a region, that is how we can identity them with different groups/civilizations. Almost everything came out of Africa at some point but are we going to go that far back to find origins of tribes which actually expanded and settled elsewhere much later?

Ancient dna is cool but percentage of the dna is more important, that is how we find who and where these dna belonged to at that point in time

Kelmendasi
04-18-2020, 02:13 PM
Ok in terms of origin that may be "important" but in terms of giving an identity to a dna group, a tribe, you have to say that J1 P58 is an Arab tribe marker. Very early dna is not so important, populations were insignifant at the time, its all about when these dna groups formed together and held down a region, that is how we can identity them with different groups/civilizations. Almost everything came out of Africa at some point but are we going to go that far back to find origins of tribes which actually expanded and settled elsewhere much later?

Ancient dna is cool but percentage of the dna is more important, that is how we find who and where these dna belonged to at that point in time
P58 is not a tribal Arab marker, this is clearly shown by the fact that Arabs only belong to certain downstreams that only have later Bronze Age dispersal. Saying that modern frequency is more important than aDNA is laughable. Seems like you have learned nothing from Eupedia.

ShpataEMadhe
04-19-2020, 07:42 PM
P58 is not a tribal Arab marker, this is clearly shown by the fact that Arabs only belong to certain downstreams that only have later Bronze Age dispersal. Saying that modern frequency is more important than aDNA is laughable. Seems like you have learned nothing from Eupedia.

Yeah pal, keep living in your happy fairy tales

"In contrast, the putative Arab influence seems to be mainly male-driven (P<0.0001), as mtDNA lineages R0a and J1b together only represent 3% of the Tunisian female gene pool, whereas J1-M267 lineages amount 17% of the Tunisian male gene pool. Taking the present-day frequencies of these lineages in the Arabian Peninsula as representative of those carried to North Africa by the 7th Century Islamic expansion, the Arab male genetic input on Tunisia could be as high as 38%, whereas the female counterpart was significantly lower ranging from 13 to 17%."

Source:

https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201192

Arabs changed North africa and Middle East forever, culturally and yes also dna

If P58 isn't the arab marker which is, or I should say which are because there are plenty from 7th century

Kelmendasi
04-19-2020, 08:04 PM
Yeah pal, keep living in your happy fairy tales

"In contrast, the putative Arab influence seems to be mainly male-driven (P<0.0001), as mtDNA lineages R0a and J1b together only represent 3% of the Tunisian female gene pool, whereas J1-M267 lineages amount 17% of the Tunisian male gene pool. Taking the present-day frequencies of these lineages in the Arabian Peninsula as representative of those carried to North Africa by the 7th Century Islamic expansion, the Arab male genetic input on Tunisia could be as high as 38%, whereas the female counterpart was significantly lower ranging from 13 to 17%."

Source:

https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201192

Arabs changed North africa and Middle East forever, culturally and yes also dna

If P58 isn't the arab marker which is, or I should say which are because there are plenty from 7th century
You're a lost cause, and nobody is stating that the Arab expansions had no genetic impact, of course they did especially in nations that today are Arabic-speaking. What's being refuted is your claim that P58 is an Arab marker that somehow was only spread with Arab populations. The vast majority of Arabs who are P58+ are not P58*, they belong to downstreams. The cluster under P58 that you can link to the Proto-Arabs with a decent amount of certainty is J-Y10887 (FGC1695) which is a downstream of FGC11 and the TMRCA (~3,000ybp) roughly coincides with the first mention of the Arabs as a group. Y10887 is only a branch of P58, there are multiple other branches that have different origins.

You have a problem wherein you can't tell the difference between P58 and the downstreams or clusters under P58, I realised this in Eupedia as well. Learn the difference and then comment.

Jatt1
04-19-2020, 08:33 PM
Yeah pal, keep living in your happy fairy tales

"In contrast, the putative Arab influence seems to be mainly male-driven (P<0.0001), as mtDNA lineages R0a and J1b together only represent 3% of the Tunisian female gene pool, whereas J1-M267 lineages amount 17% of the Tunisian male gene pool. Taking the present-day frequencies of these lineages in the Arabian Peninsula as representative of those carried to North Africa by the 7th Century Islamic expansion, the Arab male genetic input on Tunisia could be as high as 38%, whereas the female counterpart was significantly lower ranging from 13 to 17%."

Source:

https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201192

Arabs changed North africa and Middle East forever, culturally and yes also dna

If P58 isn't the arab marker which is, or I should say which are because there are plenty from 7th century

See for yourself and note the TMRCA for each lineage. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/

lifeisdandy
04-28-2020, 08:45 PM
I reached out to FTDNA to ask 2 questions.

At 12 markers, I share a common paternal ancestor with a man from Saudi Arabia who I am waiting to share his tribe with me. I don't want to reveal his name but his last name is a tribal one.

On my big y test, I share my block tree with an anonymous person but who also shares my father's rare ydna. I asked ftdna what the likely origin of my dad's snp is and this is what he said:

"Hello,

All Y-DNA matches are strictly paternal ancestors.

The most likely place of origin of J-ZS12454 per current data is Egypt around the mid-late 3rd millennium B.C.

Please see attached image.

Best regards, "37395

lifeisdandy
04-29-2020, 06:13 PM
any comments?