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Ibericus
04-06-2020, 08:48 AM
I just got my results from the Yseq panel that I ordered: E-Z5009*. It's a bit disappointing, to be honest, because I was hoping to go a bit further downstream. The only reference to Z-5009 in general that I could find on these forums is this:

E-Z5009 (tmrca 1900 ybp) is highly correlated with Spanish settlers in the New World, and it's basal branches are in the Maghreb. With a tmrca of 1900, it points to a clear Maghrebi founder line in Iberia that became somewhat successful in the New World.
(The semitic origin of Al Andalus (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14989-The-Semitic-Origin-of-Al-Andalus))

Regarding the Z-5009* paragroup in particular, Yfull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5009/) shows all the countries in Maghreb plus Mauritania, Belgium and England. Meanwhile FTDNA public haplotree has a bunch of new sub-branches for which Yseq doesn't test plus the following branch participants:

Morocco - 13 participants

Algeria - 6 participants

Spain - 4 participants

France - 4 participants

Tunisia - 3 participants

Saudi Arabia - 3 participants

Egypt - 2 participants

Libya - 2 participants

Lebanon - 2 participants

Mauritania - 2 participants

Puerto Rico - 1 participant

Scotland - 1 participant

United States - 1 participant

Switzerland - 1 participant

Colombia - 1 participant

Any other Z-5009 around here?

Adamm
04-06-2020, 04:17 PM
Z5009 is widespread in Morocco and Algeria:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5009/

Join this facebook group if you have questions about your haplogroup because many guys there are z5009:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/EM81YDNAProjectGroupEnglish/

Ibericus
05-23-2020, 08:24 PM
Does anyone know how to interpret y-str results within this clade? I have noticed there almost no DYS458=19 in Spain, but there seem to be plenty from Algeria to the east.

Iberia: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA?iframe=yresults

Libya: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Libya?iframe=yresults

Farroukh
05-24-2020, 09:29 PM
The first rule of Fight Club is: order BigY700. The second rule of Fight Club is: order bam-file. Third rule of Fight Club: upload your bam to Yfull.com
(Tyler Durden. Fight Club)
:)

capsian
10-13-2020, 11:09 PM
great post
if was people Maghreb countries did more tests Y-big and upload in Y-full will be see most sample from Maghreb countries

Imesmouden
01-17-2021, 09:23 PM
I'm E-Z5009

E-Z5009 > E-FT31300

My origins is from South West Morocco (Chichaoua region)

https://i.imgur.com/rD8Z3Kp.png

Squad
01-25-2021, 06:48 AM
Z5009 is the most common M81 subclade in Morocco. You can say it is the marker of the big berber tribal confederation, the Iznaguen (Sanhaja).

capsian
01-25-2021, 02:41 PM
Z5009 is the most common M81 subclade in Morocco. You can say it is the marker of the big berber tribal confederation, the Iznaguen (Sanhaja).

yes sure branch E-Z5009 is most in Morocco but find also in tribes Masmuda

Imesmouden
01-25-2021, 08:08 PM
Z5009 is the most common M81 subclade in Morocco. You can say it is the marker of the big berber tribal confederation, the Iznaguen (Sanhaja).

Sanhaja and Masmuda

Squad
01-26-2021, 03:34 PM
I don't know if the masmuda really belonged to z5009. Masmuda was said to be an old confederation so i would expect them to belong to a different line. Z5009 found among shluh in southern Morocco today is probably of sanhajan derivation. Notice how among the Sahraoui only 20% of their m81 belongs to z5009. Thats because even though they technically belong to sanhajan tribes, it is likely that they are in fact mostly descendants of masmuda tribes. I would thus suspect the masmuda to belong to various rarer lines. This makes sense especially when taking into account that they're considered older than the other big confederations. Ive also seen somewhere that A2227 has a strong presence in the Souss

Ibericus
02-05-2021, 07:51 PM
It's been a while since I started this thread and there have been some "exotic" additions to Yfull, such as an American "Cowen", a Palestinian (Hebron) and a Yemenite. This eastern branch has also formed:

https://i.ibb.co/MftSYYd/Screenshot-20210205-204835-Chrome.jpg

capsian
02-05-2021, 09:15 PM
It's been a while since I started this thread and there have been some "exotic" additions to Yfull, such as an American "Cowen", a Palestinian (Hebron) and a Yemenite. This eastern branch has also formed:

https://i.ibb.co/MftSYYd/Screenshot-20210205-204835-Chrome.jpg
this does not mean anything these people of North African origin immigrated to the Middle East for many causes

RagingBull
02-06-2021, 10:54 AM
The geneflow went both ways. Many people of Middle Eastern origin migrated to North Africa.

https://i.ibb.co/kGfjXsZ/E-M81.jpg (https://ibb.co/2FQxd1J)

https://i.ibb.co/2sPqQsG/E-Z5009.jpg (https://ibb.co/qW9BfWT)

Squad
02-09-2021, 04:42 AM
this does not mean anything these people of North African origin immigrated to the Middle East for many causes

E-M81 is quite frequent in Palestine actually. From what i've observed I would say as much as 4%

leorcooper19
02-09-2021, 05:13 PM
E-M81 is quite frequent in Palestine actually. From what i've observed I would say as much as 4%

After a quick search in a couple FTDNA projects with lots of Palestinians, I only found one E-M81:
886351 in https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Palestine?iframe=ycolorized , probably is the same guy as YF79025 here https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5009*/

Couldn't find any E-M81 Palestinians in here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Lebanon-Syria-DNA/default.aspx?section=yresults . There were a few others that are Lebanese.

When totaled, that one individual out of all the Palestinians between the two projects makes up less than 1%. Is there a specific study or something that suggests it's as high as 4%?

Ibericus
02-09-2021, 07:18 PM
What do you guys think about E-MZ131? The E-M81 project puts it at 1,100 years before present and it has two members from Córdoba as well as two from Iraq among others.

It's interesting because that was the time of Abd al-Rahman III who "after initially recognizing the legitimacy of the Abbasid Caliphate of Baghdad, in 929 Emir Abd ar-Rahman III declared the caliphate of Córdoba, with himself as caliph"

Other interesting anecdotes from wikipedia: Abd al-Rahman was accused of having sunk in his later years into the self-indulgent habits of the harem. He is known to have openly kept a male as well as a female harem.

Do you think it could somehow be related to the Emirate of Córdoba?

Adamm
02-09-2021, 07:26 PM
What do you guys think about E-MZ131? The E-M81 project puts it at 1,100 years before present and it has two members from Córdoba as well as two from Iraq among others.

It's interesting because that was the time of Abd al-Rahman III who "after initially recognizing the legitimacy of the Abbasid Caliphate of Baghdad, in 929 Emir Abd ar-Rahman III declared the caliphate of Córdoba, with himself as caliph"

Other interesting anecdotes from wikipedia: Abd al-Rahman was accused of having sunk in his later years into the self-indulgent habits of the harem. He is known to have openly kept a male as well as a female harem.

YFULL puts it at 1850 ybp:

https://i.imgur.com/VU0Oj0q.png

Emir Abderrahman was from the Ummayad Dynasty so he was most likely a J1/2 carrier, but who knows.

drobbah
02-09-2021, 07:32 PM
YFULL puts it at 1850 ybp:

https://i.imgur.com/VU0Oj0q.png

Emir Abderrahman was from the Ummayad Dynasty so he was most likely a J1/2 carrier, but who knows.
He was probably the same lineage as his Hashemite cousins J-L859+

Ibericus
02-09-2021, 07:36 PM
There is usually a substantial difference between Yfull and the project. I find the project dating more accurate. With all these SNPs it's highly unlikely that only 250 years passed between Z5009 and MZ131:

Mz129, Mz130, Mz132, Mz133, Mz134, Z9690=BY46148

In fact Yfull gives Z5009 a TMRCA of 1850 too, so its technically impossible.

capsian
02-09-2021, 10:04 PM
E-M81 is quite frequent in Palestine actually. From what i've observed I would say as much as 4%

in south morocco 98%

Lupriac
02-10-2021, 07:31 PM
After a quick search in a couple FTDNA projects with lots of Palestinians, I only found one E-M81:
886351 in https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Palestine?iframe=ycolorized , probably is the same guy as YF79025 here https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5009*/

Couldn't find any E-M81 Palestinians in here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Lebanon-Syria-DNA/default.aspx?section=yresults . There were a few others that are Lebanese.

When totaled, that one individual out of all the Palestinians between the two projects makes up less than 1%. Is there a specific study or something that suggests it's as high as 4%?

In Zalloua et al. 2008, among 367 Palestinians sampled, there's zero "E3b2" (E-M81); in fact, there was only one E-M81 in all of the study and it was a Syrian.

Lupriac
02-10-2021, 07:46 PM
There are 4 Palestinian individuals who are E-M81 in this project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/MashareqAl-Baitawi?iframe=yresults
They all seem to be E-Z5009.

capsian
02-10-2021, 07:58 PM
There are 4 Palestinian individuals who are E-M81 in this project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/MashareqAl-Baitawi?iframe=yresults
They all seem to be E-Z5009.

these are the descendants of the Moroccan soldiers who went to the Middle East in the Middle Ages when the Sultan of Saladin sought help from the country Almohad Caliphate

Lupriac
02-10-2021, 08:12 PM
these are the descendants of the Moroccan soldiers who went to the Middle East in the Middle Ages when the Sultan of Saladin sought help from the country Almohad Caliphate

Either that or Fatimid soldiers.

RagingBull
02-10-2021, 08:44 PM
Many Levantines have roots in Europe and the Caucasus. They aren't reperesentative of the original inhabitants of the Levant unlike Peninsular Arabs who preserved better the DNA of the original Semites.

https://i.ibb.co/60nNpCn/Capture.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)






https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/abo-naif-e-m81/about

leorcooper19
02-11-2021, 02:13 PM
Many Levantines have roots in Europe and the Caucasus. They aren't reperesentative of the original inhabitants of the Levant unlike Peninsular Arabs who preserved better the DNA of the original Semites.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/abo-naif-e-m81/about

In https://www.familytreedna.com/public/SaudiArabia?iframe=ycolorized , with about 1350 Saudi Arabian Y-DNA haplotypes, I could only find 8 in E-M81. 8/1350 = 0.59%.

For context, in the same project, I found 22 members in Haplogroup B (22/1350 = 1.62%) and 21 in Haplogroup A (21/1350 = 1.55%). That means that the rates of these two haplogroups- thought to arrived in the area only during the medieval era from Sub-Saharan African- are together 5x greater than the rate E-M81 makes up.

Really makes you think...

RagingBull
02-11-2021, 04:45 PM
In https://www.familytreedna.com/public/SaudiArabia?iframe=ycolorized , with about 1350 Saudi Arabian Y-DNA haplotypes, I could only find 8 in E-M81. 8/1350 = 0.59%.

For context, in the same project, I found 22 members in Haplogroup B (22/1350 = 1.62%) and 21 in Haplogroup A (21/1350 = 1.55%). That means that the rates of these two haplogroups- thought to arrived in the area only during the medieval era from Sub-Saharan African- are together 5x greater than the rate E-M81 makes up.

Really makes you think...
Adding together the two projects, I find 120 Peninsular Arabs under E-M81. 120/1468 = 8.17%. Really makes you think indeed.

Edit: Not all members of the Saudi Arabia DNA Project are Saudi Arabs, or Peninsular Arabs for that matters.

https://i.ibb.co/n89MJth/Saudi-Arabia-DNA-Project.png (https://ibb.co/WpZvJjS)

leorcooper19
02-11-2021, 04:56 PM
Adding together the two projects, I find 120 Peninsular Arabs under E-M81. 120/1468 = 8.17%. Really makes you think indeed.

:lol: :nono:

Do you really need a lesson in how combining these two samples will yield bad results?

Claudio
02-11-2021, 04:57 PM
Adding together the two projects, I find 120 Peninsular Arabs under E-M81. 120/1468 = 8.17%. Really makes you think indeed.

Yup!

Really makes me think indeed.

Thinking about how deluded you must be. :laugh:

RagingBull
02-11-2021, 05:14 PM
This project include too many Europeans, I balanced it by adding ethnic Saudis ;)

leorcooper19
02-11-2021, 05:24 PM
This project include too many Europeans, I balanced it by adding ethnic Saudis ;)

Okay, then looking only in the subgroups Asir & Al-Baha, Ha'il, Hijaz, Najran & Jazan, Northern Region (Tabuk, Al Jawf, Turaif, Arar), Qasim, Riyadh (Centeral Region), and Sharqiyyah (Eastern Region), I only found 3/476 E-M81, so still around 0.6%.

Dude, this is comical, and a waste of our time if you can't bring in actual evidence for a significant presence of E-M81 among Peninsular Arabs or Levantines.

Claudio
02-11-2021, 05:52 PM
Okay, then looking only in the subgroups Asir & Al-Baha, Ha'il, Hijaz, Najran & Jazan, Northern Region (Tabuk, Al Jawf, Turaif, Arar), Qasim, Riyadh (Centeral Region), and Sharqiyyah (Eastern Region), I only found 3/476 E-M81, so still around 0.6%.

Dude, this is comical, and a waste of our time if you can't bring in actual evidence for a significant presence of E-M81 among Peninsular Arabs or Levantines.

Riding that E-M81 Levantine origin theory be like..
43225 lol

RagingBull
02-11-2021, 05:57 PM
Okay, then looking only in the subgroups Asir & Al-Baha, Ha'il, Hijaz, Najran & Jazan, Northern Region (Tabuk, Al Jawf, Turaif, Arar), Qasim, Riyadh (Centeral Region), and Sharqiyyah (Eastern Region), I only found 3/476 E-M81, so still around 0.6%.

Dude, this is comical, and a waste of our time if you can't bring in actual evidence for a significant presence of E-M81 among Peninsular Arabs or Levantines.

I provided you with an entire project worth of evidence. E-M81 has a strong presence in the Peninsula, as well as Jordan and the Negev.

https://i.ibb.co/dBmwRNG/Arab-countries-haplogroups-overview.png (https://ibb.co/LSNX3Tn)
https://i.ibb.co/5xg3j0H/1-s2-0-S0002929708002061-gr2.jpg (https://ibb.co/prBTK7F)
https://i.ibb.co/djs3Dvs/Ychromosome-haplogroup-frequencies-observed-for-Saudi-Arabia-and-nearby-regions-1.png (https://ibb.co/rFKLHhK)

RagingBull
02-11-2021, 06:31 PM
3.17% of the Iraqi population is E-M81 as well.
https://i.ibb.co/7SpN3sB/Es-Xbt-Rg-XIAEt-ICT.jpg (https://ibb.co/JcpFYD8)

drobbah
02-11-2021, 06:45 PM
3.17% of the Iraqi population is E-M81 as well.

The Iraqis & Kuwaitis probably carry young lineages, they also carry NE African E-M35 lineages like E-V12/E-V32.

RagingBull
02-11-2021, 07:18 PM
Last but not least: Cyprus.
https://i.ibb.co/ZgNc45Z/Levant.png (https://ibb.co/fNQr6fc)

RagingBull
02-11-2021, 07:50 PM
All these areas were once inhabited by Phoenicians and underwent massive depopulation during the Late Bronze Age Collapse. Cyprus suffered the least from the LBAC and even acted as a safe haven for Phoenicians including the Ugaritan ruling class. As i see it, E-M81 was once one of the most widespread lineage in the Levant but lost ground to new haplogroup from the Aegean and the Caucasus who displaced it to Cyprus and North Africa.


The Iraqis & Kuwaitis probably carry young lineages, they also carry NE African E-M35 lineages like E-V12/E-V32.
Are you trolling? The Middle East is home to the only carrier of E-M310 (upstream of E-L19) and one of the two carriers of E-M165. North Africans carry young lineages such as E-PF2548 and its subclades.

RagingBull
02-11-2021, 08:19 PM
Sorry my mistake, there are actually two E-M310 carriers: one Spaniard and one Levantine.

https://i.ibb.co/GWChjmm/M310.png (https://ibb.co/qNmZw66)

capsian
02-11-2021, 10:44 PM
Sorry my mistake, there are actually two E-M310 carriers: one Spaniard and one Levantine.

https://i.ibb.co/GWChjmm/M310.png (https://ibb.co/qNmZw66)

sample HG01699 its Neagtive E-M81 and possitive E-PF2431+Z21068 +PF2438+Y10550+Y10541+PF2440+PF2471+BY9805
And sample Turkish also positiveE-PF2431

capsian
02-12-2021, 12:02 PM
Riding that E-M81 Levantine origin theory be like..
43225 lol

exacly E-M81 Is orgin North afica and branch sister PF2431 found in north africa and some in west euroup and sahel

Imesmouden
02-12-2021, 12:48 PM
I don't know if the masmuda really belonged to z5009. Masmuda was said to be an old confederation so i would expect them to belong to a different line. Z5009 found among shluh in southern Morocco today is probably of sanhajan derivation. Notice how among the Sahraoui only 20% of their m81 belongs to z5009. Thats because even though they technically belong to sanhajan tribes, it is likely that they are in fact mostly descendants of masmuda tribes. I would thus suspect the masmuda to belong to various rarer lines. This makes sense especially when taking into account that they're considered older than the other big confederations. Ive also seen somewhere that A2227 has a strong presence in the Souss

Almost all people who tested and belong to masmuda are under Z5009 , including me

capsian
02-12-2021, 03:48 PM
Almost all people who tested and belong to masmuda are under Z5009 , including me

yes Masmuda and Sanhja are E-Z5009
But who is branch musmuda and sanhaja under Z5009 is very difficult

Squad
02-12-2021, 09:12 PM
in south morocco 98%

Bullshit, that 2017 study is obviously false. Nowhere in Morocco does M81 reach 98% lol. Southern moroccan Berbers have 75% E-M81.

Squad
02-12-2021, 09:25 PM
Zalloua et al 2008's Palestinians had 4% E-M81. Jordanians had like 3%. Syrians 1% and Lebanese 1.5-2%. The sample size was significant for all of these pops

Of course E-M81 in the Levant is of historical maghrebi origin lol.

This E-M81 being phoenician/levantine thing is hands down the most retarded claim I've ever seen uttered among the population genetics community. I'm left speechless at how ignorant and deluded one has to be to even attempt putting forward such non-sense. It is dismissive of every single principle population genetics rests upon as a statistical discipline

Imesmouden
02-12-2021, 10:31 PM
Bullshit, that 2017 study is obviously false. Nowhere in Morocco does M81 reach 98% lol. Southern moroccan Berbers have 75% E-M81.

it depends , some tribes in high atlas and souss can easily have 98% E-M81

in reguig et al 2014 , from 65 south moroccan sample from tiznit and regions 64 sample was positive to E-M81

https://i.imgur.com/SaRWc4I.png

but in average all south morocco being 98% E-M81 is surely not true

capsian
02-13-2021, 12:10 AM
it depends , some tribes in high atlas and souss can easily have 98% E-M81

in reguig et al 2014 , from 65 south moroccan sample from tiznit and regions 64 sample was positive to E-M81

https://i.imgur.com/SaRWc4I.png

but in average all south morocco being 98% E-M81 is surely not true

thanks you yes sure i thnk avarge E-M81 In south morocco btw 70% to 80%

Squad
02-13-2021, 12:42 AM
44 southern Berbers + 34 Souss Berbers + 54 Asni Berbers + 33 Amizmiz Berbers + 27 Marrakech Berbers had a total of about 70-75%.

RagingBull
02-13-2021, 10:52 AM
Zalloua et al 2008's Palestinians had 4% E-M81. Jordanians had like 3%. Syrians 1% and Lebanese 1.5-2%. The sample size was significant for all of these pops

Of course E-M81 in the Levant is of historical maghrebi origin lol.

This E-M81 being phoenician/levantine thing is hands down the most retarded claim I've ever seen uttered among the population genetics community. I'm left speechless at how ignorant and deluded one has to be to even attempt putting forward such non-sense. It is dismissive of every single principle population genetics rests upon as a statistical discipline

Your opinion and feelings are irrelevant tbh. The scientific consensus (Arredi et al. 2004; Morata et al. 2017; Fregel et al. 2018; Penninx 2019) is that E-M81 originated in the Middle East.

If you actually bothered studying population genetics, you'd understand that E-M310 and E-M165 are only found in the Middle East and that Berbers can't be reponsible for their spread to the Middle East because they are carry younger subclades downstream of E-PF2548.

sami15
02-13-2021, 12:59 PM
E-M81 Distribution in Morocco by Bosch E et al 2001

Genetic Y-DNA frequencies of E-M81 in Western Sahara, South Morocco, Central Morocco, and Andalusia in Spain.
Demonstrated by H38 (ancient Haplogroup Formelry of E-M81) by Bosch.E et al 2001.

The Main Frequencies of E-M81 was:

52% for Arab Moroccans
75% for Sahraouis
65% for Berbers of South Morocco
65% for Berbers of Central Morocco
5% for Andalusians in Spain

Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275654/

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43264
43264

Table of Frequencies :

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43265
43265

Imesmouden
02-13-2021, 01:00 PM
Your opinion and feelings are irrelevant tbh. The scientific consensus (Arredi et al. 2004; Morata et al. 2017; Fregel et al. 2018; Penninx 2019) is that E-M81 originated in the Middle East.

If you actually bothered studying population genetics, you'd understand that E-M310 and E-M165 are only found in the Middle East and that Berbers can't be reponsible for their spread to the Middle East because they are carry younger subclades downstream of E-PF2548.

we already talked about all these points in the E-M81 thread and you know that you are just saying some nosense
and btw can you show me where Fregel et al. 2018 and Morata et al. 2017 said that E-M81 is originated in the middle east?

for E-M165 it's found in a german sample also , and the oldest clade of E-M81 is E-M107 which is found only in 3 north african individuals , you already know all of this lol

Imesmouden
02-13-2021, 01:02 PM
E-M81 Distribution in Morocco by Bosch E et al 2001

Genetic Y-DNA frequencies of E-M81 in Western Sahara, South Morocco, Central Morocco, and Andalusia in Spain.
Demonstrated by H38 (ancient Haplogroup Formelry of E-M81) by Bosch.E et al 2001.

The Main Frequencies of E-M81 was:

52% for Arab Moroccans
75% for Sahraouis
65% for Berbers of South Morocco
65% for Berbers of Central Morocco
5% for Andalusians in Spain

Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275654/

43264

Table of Frequencies :

43265

This doesnt seems accurate , espically for "Arab" Moroccan , the percentage is pretty much higher

sami15
02-13-2021, 01:12 PM
This doesnt seems accurate , espically for "Arab" Moroccan , the percentage is pretty much higher

What Do you Mean? are you discussing the validity of these Data sampling?

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43264
https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43265

Here is The Main Frequencies of E-M81 In Morocco:

52% for Arab Moroccans
75% for Sahraouis
65% for Berbers of South Morocco
65% for Berbers of Central Morocco
5% for Andalusians in Spain


Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275654/

Squad
02-14-2021, 04:00 AM
This doesnt seems accurate , espically for "Arab" Moroccan , the percentage is pretty much higher

Actually it's not. Ive compiled data about alot of Moroccan samples. Moroccan Arabs have on average about exactly 50% E-M81. The Doukkala region has only 30% because they have a lot of E-V65.

This is based on a total sample size of more than 700 moroccan arabs. Berbers have 70% on average or 75%

Imesmouden
02-14-2021, 12:00 PM
Actually it's not. Ive compiled data about alot of Moroccan samples. Moroccan Arabs have on average about exactly 50% E-M81. The Doukkala region has only 30% because they have a lot of E-V65.

This is based on a total sample size of more than 700 moroccan arabs. Berbers have 70% on average or 75%

Doukkala 30% E-M81?! , where did you came this info from bro

Doukkala have a high frequencies of E-M81 and here is some examples

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtFw8MbXIAAD_X7?format=jpg&name=medium

i think you mistaken between doukkala and tadla beni mellal region cause they are the ones with high V65

RagingBull
02-14-2021, 06:44 PM
Unrelated but the TMRCA of E-L19 was lowered to 6500ybp. The formation of E-M81 and E-M165 were lowered to 6500 ybp and their TMRCA to 3800 ybp. The formation of E-CTS4236 was lowered to 3800 ybp and its TMRCA to 2300 ybp.

A formation in 6500 ybp makes it impossible for E-M81 to be derived from Capsian culture bearers.

sami15
02-14-2021, 07:05 PM
Unrelated but the TMRCA of E-L19 was lowered to 6500ybp. The formation of E-M81 and E-M165 were lowered to 6500 ybp and their TMRCA to 3800 ybp. The formation of E-CTS4236 was lowered to 3800 ybp and its TMRCA to 2300 ybp.

A formation in 6500 ybp makes it impossible for E-M81 to be derived from Capsian culture bearers.

it seems that E-M81 was formed during the bell-beaker Culture In North Morocco, it makes Sense!

capsian
02-14-2021, 07:37 PM
it seems that E-M81 was formed during the bell-beaker Culture In North Morocco, it makes Sense!

Bell-Beaker are R-M269some G-M201+I-M170+E-V1039+T-M70

sami15
02-14-2021, 07:47 PM
Bell-Beaker are R-M269some G-M201+I-M170+E-V1039+T-M70

We're Not talking about The Bell beaker ADNA of European Bronze age, Here we're talking about The North Moroccan Bell-Beaker Culture Estimated around 3700BC to 1200BC because it coincides totally with Period formation of E-M81!

Never Mind! it's just lessons for you as Archeological Facts! ;)

Squad
02-14-2021, 08:21 PM
Unrelated but the TMRCA of E-L19 was lowered to 6500ybp. The formation of E-M81 and E-M165 were lowered to 6500 ybp and their TMRCA to 3800 ybp. The formation of E-CTS4236 was lowered to 3800 ybp and its TMRCA to 2300 ybp.

A formation in 6500 ybp makes it impossible for E-M81 to be derived from Capsian culture bearers.

Are you serious? That's clearly a mistake Yfull will be correcting soon. See how deluded you are? If you knew your stuff you would know by yourself that E-L19 can easily be demonstrated to have a TMRCA of about 15kya.

capsian
02-14-2021, 08:26 PM
Are you serious? That's clearly a mistake Yfull will be correcting soon. See how deluded you are? If you knew your stuff you would know by yourself that E-L19 can easily be demonstrated to have a TMRCA of about 15kya.

yes exacly

capsian
02-14-2021, 08:28 PM
We're Not talking about The Bell beaker ADNA of European Bronze age, Here we're talking about The North Moroccan Bell-Beaker Culture Estimated around 3700BC to 1200BC because it coincides totally with Period formation of E-M81!

Never Mind! it's just lessons for you as Archeological Facts! ;)

Y DNA E-M81 is formed since 13.800 years old so it has nothing to do with culture Bell-Beaker

Squad
02-14-2021, 08:32 PM
Doukkala 30% E-M81?! , where did you came this info from bro

Doukkala have a high frequencies of E-M81 and here is some examples

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtFw8MbXIAAD_X7?format=jpg&name=medium

i think you mistaken between doukkala and tadla beni mellal region cause they are the ones with high V65

Nah bro, Doukkala has 30% E-M81 there's two studies totalling just above 100 men. Here's one of the two with most men from El Jadida and other Doukkala, Chaouia, Tadla and Abda :

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/46379750_Genetic_differences_among_North_African_B erber_and_Arab-speaking_populations_revealed_by_Y-STR_diversity

34% E-V65
32% E-M81
14% J2
8% J1
6% E-V22
2% G2a
2% R-M269

There's also samples from actual Tadla in Khouribga from two studies as well, totalling some 150 samples. The profile is different from that of Doukala. I remember the results quite well. They had high E-M81 at 55% and the highest J1 in Morocco at 20%. J2 was minimal as well

sami15
02-14-2021, 08:38 PM
Y DNA E-M81 is formed since 13.800 years old so it has nothing to do with culture Bell-Beaker

According to the last Update of Yfull, E-M81 TMRCA is just about 1800BC, so it means that E-M81 was appeared in the late stage of bell-beaker Culture of North Morocco.

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43310&d=1613335071
43310

Imesmouden
02-14-2021, 09:12 PM
Nah bro, Doukkala has 30% E-M81 there's two studies totalling just above 100 men. Here's one of the two with most men from El Jadida and other Doukkala, Chaouia, Tadla and Abda :

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/46379750_Genetic_differences_among_North_African_B erber_and_Arab-speaking_populations_revealed_by_Y-STR_diversity

34% E-V65
32% E-M81
14% J2
8% J1
6% E-V22
2% G2a
2% R-M269

There's also samples from actual Tadla in Khouribga from two studies as well, totalling some 150 samples. The profile is different from that of Doukala. I remember the results quite well. They had high E-M81 at 55% and the highest J1 in Morocco at 20%. J2 was minimal as well

Since tadla is included in the study i'm pretty sure that most of the V65's are from there

capsian
02-14-2021, 09:14 PM
According to the last Update of Yfull, E-M81 TMRCA is just about 1800BC, so it means that E-M81 was appeared in the late stage of bell-beaker Culture of North Morocco.

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43310&d=1613335071
43310

and who said to you E-M81 formed in north morocco maybe Nortrh-westLibya

sami15
02-14-2021, 09:26 PM
and who said to you E-M81 formed in north morocco maybe Nortrh-westLibya

Bell-Beaker Culture does not reach North West Libya at all, it reaches Only North Morocco During Chalcolithic and Bronze age, for this Reason E-M81 Seems to be formed just around Iberian coasts Likely North Morocco, it's where the Steppe Admixture was Happened for the first time in Continental Africa.


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/05/17/17/40713A2400000578-4515266-This_graphic_shows_the_spread_of_beaker_culture_ac ross_Europe_Re-a-2_1495036936271.jpg

Imesmouden
02-14-2021, 09:36 PM
Are you serious? That's clearly a mistake Yfull will be correcting soon. See how deluded you are? If you knew your stuff you would know by yourself that E-L19 can easily be demonstrated to have a TMRCA of about 15kya.

That's what i thought ,

the new TMRCAs don't fit with E-L19 forming age

Squad
02-14-2021, 09:50 PM
Since tadla is included in the study i'm pretty sure that most of the V65's are from there

Naahh, it is explicitly said that most samples are from El Jadida. The profile of Tadla is known like I said. They have very high J1, high M81, high SSA lines at about 10%, average V65, low J2 and significant PF2431. Doukkala on the other hand is very high V65, low M81, high J2, average J1, SSA lines at only 1% , high V22 and no PF2431.

Imesmouden
02-14-2021, 09:59 PM
Naahh, it is explicitly said that most samples are from El Jadida. The profile of Tadla is known like I said. They have very high J1, high M81, high SSA lines at about 10%, average V65, low J2 and significant PF2431. Doukkala on the other hand is very high V65, low M81, high J2, average J1, SSA lines at only 1% , high V22 and no PF2431.

That's weird , it contradict what i see from personal dna tests
are you sure about PF2431 , it's present in Tadla?
i never see one before

capsian
02-14-2021, 10:01 PM
Naahh, it is explicitly said that most samples are from El Jadida. The profile of Tadla is known like I said. They have very high J1, high M81, high SSA lines at about 10%, average V65, low J2 and significant PF2431. Doukkala on the other hand is very high V65, low M81, high J2, average J1, SSA lines at only 1% , high V22 and no PF2431.

ssa do you mean Haplgroups E-M2 + A+B

Squad
02-14-2021, 10:01 PM
That's weird , it contradict what i see from personal dna tests
are you sure about PF2431 , it's present in Tadla?
i never see one before

Easily 5%

capsian
02-14-2021, 10:02 PM
That's weird , it contradict what i see from personal dna tests
are you sure about PF2431 , it's present in Tadla?
i never see one before

me too also i never see result from tadla under E-PF2431

capsian
02-14-2021, 10:04 PM
Easily 5%

5% is good ratio

Squad
02-14-2021, 10:05 PM
ssa do you mean Haplgroups E-M2 + A+B

This is the order of SSA haplogroups in Morocco by frequency:

M2, E1a(xM44), E2b, B3, A1a, B2, A3b2, M44

The Tadla area is high in E-M2 at 8% and B3 at 2%

capsian
02-14-2021, 10:08 PM
This is the order of SSA haplogroups in Morocco by frequency:

M2, E1a(xM44), E2b, B3, A1a, B2, A3b2, M44

The Tadla area is high in E-M2 at 8% and B3 at 2%

they have a historical reason

capsian
02-14-2021, 10:13 PM
Easily 5%

but do you have informatoin under any branch in E-PF2431

capsian
02-14-2021, 10:15 PM
Although i dont think they are under E-Y141637 or E-FGC18981

Squad
02-14-2021, 10:20 PM
They all appear to be under the regular moroccan clade A19606. And I just checked the results again, PF2431 is at 3% rather than 5%, well one study had 5% and the other one 1.2%. J2 isn't so low but not quite as high as Doukkala, 5% vs 12%. And like I said SSA lines are very high.

capsian
02-14-2021, 10:21 PM
They all appear to be under the regular moroccan clade A19606. And I just checked the results again, PF2431 is at 3%. J2 isn't so low but not quite as high as Doukkala, 5% vs 12%

i m E-A19606

Squad
02-14-2021, 10:26 PM
i m E-A19606

You are from southern Morocco?

capsian
02-14-2021, 10:36 PM
You are from southern Morocco?

yes i m from south morocco

capsian
02-14-2021, 10:38 PM
They all appear to be under the regular moroccan clade A19606. And I just checked the results again, PF2431 is at 3% rather than 5%, well one study had 5% and the other one 1.2%. J2 isn't so low but not quite as high as Doukkala, 5% vs 12%. And like I said SSA lines are very high.

do you have source

Squad
02-14-2021, 11:37 PM
do you have source

Always do brother. The first one is a study about Moroccans and Tunisians from italy, I once had access to the haplotypes so I confirm to you that the 3 M35* are all PF2431.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/Snqpb1qFPpI/AAAAAAAAB7Y/jlu9SZ3yhcM/s1600-h/morocco_tunisia.jpg

The other one is a study about Libyans and Moroccans : https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0080293

You can check the haplotypes table, there's one PF2431.

RagingBull
02-18-2021, 05:43 PM
What Do you Mean? are you discussing the validity of these Data sampling?

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43264
https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43265

Here is The Main Frequencies of E-M81 In Morocco:

52% for Arab Moroccans
75% for Sahraouis
65% for Berbers of South Morocco
65% for Berbers of Central Morocco
5% for Andalusians in Spain


Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275654/

The number is wrong for Spain. Andalusians are 40% E-M81.


The frequency of haplotype 5 at the Y-chromosome-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/TaqI) was reported in a study of 487 males originating from five different geographic locations in Iberia and North Africa. The highest frequency of haplotype 5 (68.9%) was previously observed in Berbers from Morocco, and it has been established that this haplotype is a characteristic Berber haplotype in North Africa. The relative frequencies of haplotype 5 distribution show a geographical gradient of decreasing frequency according to latitude in Iberia: 40.8% in Andalusia, 36.2% in Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque Country; such a cline of decreasing frequency of haplotype 5 from the south to the north in Iberia clearly establishes a gene flow from North Africa towards Iberia.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11758696/

RagingBull
02-19-2021, 11:50 AM
Another Palestinian has been added to the E-M81 Y-Tree. E-Z5009* is now carried by 6 Arabs and 1 American.
https://i.ibb.co/Btfj67M/Capture.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

capsian
02-19-2021, 04:30 PM
Another Palestinian has been added to the E-M81 Y-Tree. E-Z5009* is now carried by 6 Arabs and 1 American.
https://i.ibb.co/Btfj67M/Capture.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

descendants Amazigh(berber) in Midle east

Imesmouden
02-19-2021, 04:49 PM
descendants Amazigh(berber) in Midle east

Yes for example we can state the moroccan soldiers who volunteered in saladin army while conquerinq jerusalem , most of the soldiers settled in palestine

RagingBull
02-19-2021, 08:34 PM
It is more likely that Berbers are the descendants of a Middle Eastern man named Himyar.

Lupriac
02-19-2021, 10:12 PM
The number is wrong for Spain. Andalusians are 40% E-M81.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11758696/

According to Wikipedia, that number is found among "Andalusian Zeghouan", whatever that's supposed to mean, with a sample size of 32. On the other hand, Alvarez et al. 2009's (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.20888) numbers suggest E-M81's presence is around 2% in Andalusians, with a sample size of 94.

capsian
02-19-2021, 10:40 PM
It is more likely that Berbers are the descendants of a Middle Eastern man named Himyar.

your novel it s very funny

capsian
02-19-2021, 10:42 PM
Yes for example we can state the moroccan soldiers who volunteered in saladin army while conquerinq jerusalem , most of the soldiers settled in palestine

exacly

RagingBull
02-19-2021, 11:29 PM
your novel it s very funny
I find your denial funny as well. You keep bringing up Berbers but none of them carry E-Z5009*, it's found Arabs and Europeans, but not among them. E-M165 is likewise found among Arabs and Europeans, but not among them lol. The two latest studies on E-M81 link its spread to either Romans, Phoenicians or Arabs but completely ignore Berbers because their paternal lineages show symptoms of founder effect.

capsian
02-20-2021, 12:27 AM
I find your denial funny as well. You keep bringing up Berbers but none of them carry E-Z5009*, it's found Arabs and Europeans, but not among them. E-M165 is likewise found among Arabs and Europeans, but not among them lol. The two latest studies on E-M81 link its spread to either Romans, Phoenicians or Arabs but completely ignore Berbers because their paternal lineages show symptoms of founder effect.

thanks you made me laugh at your silly theory and novel
modern samples do not mean anyting tese people are just Amazighs who migrated to the Middle East for several reasons

Imesmouden
02-20-2021, 11:00 AM
I find your denial funny as well. You keep bringing up Berbers but none of them carry E-Z5009*, it's found Arabs and Europeans, but not among them. E-M165 is likewise found among Arabs and Europeans, but not among them lol. The two latest studies on E-M81 link its spread to either Romans, Phoenicians or Arabs but completely ignore Berbers because their paternal lineages show symptoms of founder effect.

Like i said before we already answered all of this but you still keep bringing it up

but okay first of all can you tell us what's the importance of being E-Z5009* and what this has to do with the origins of the clade? as i know being on the basal just means that there is no sample yet is positive to the novel snps that you have and thats just because of the lake of north african samples in yfull , the maghrebian samples on yfull in all branches are 290 and in just saudi arabia there is 2972 sample , can you see the difference? and by the way , 2972 saudi arabian sample on yfull and none of them is in z5009 humm interesting

second thing who told you that there is no berber on E-Z5009*? here is my berber speaker friend from Taroudant in south Morocco and he is E-Z5009*

https://i.imgur.com/amojEsz.jpg

there is an eyptian sample on the basal of one of the oldest I2 clades https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y14158/ , does it means that this clade is originally egyptian? and the 9K years old remain is also egyptian? lol


and again who told you that E-M165 is found only among arabs and europeans

the only arab who is positive to E-M165 is a bedouin who have a genetic affinity towards the north african cluster unlike the other bedouins who carry Hg J1

and between 4 759 arabian sample in Yfull the number of E-M165 or E-M107 samples is 0 , humm interesting again

here is 5 north african samples on E-M183* , this is regardless the E-M107 clade which is the oldest M81 branch and it was found only in north african individuals , why you don't talk about it lol

https://i.imgur.com/o9AEGkR.png

can you show us these two latest studies you talk about? i hope they are not an eupedia or wim penninx article

ugh that's start being so boring since we talked about these points many times

RagingBull
02-20-2021, 12:26 PM
These sample are from Palestinians and Yemenis, not Saudis, and there are way less Palestinians on YFull than there are North Africans so your excuse doesn't work. As for Negev bedouins they all require a bit of African due to the slave trade, but their main component is Levantine, they have in fact far more Levantine ancestry than the European pretenders currently living in the Levant.

https://i.ibb.co/QKn8v4J/Jordan-EBA.png (https://ibb.co/jrGVkS8)

I see that you used Solé-Morata et al, but you forgot that their conclusion is that E-M81 is either a Romano-Phoenician marker or an Arab marker.


The TMRCA estimates of a certain haplogroup and its subbranches provide some constraints on the times of their origin and spread. Although our time estimates for E-M78 are slightly different depending on the mutation rate used, their confidence intervals overlap and the dates obtained are in agreement with those obtained by Trombetta et al.13 Regarding E-M183, as mentioned above, we cannot discard an expansion from the Near East and, if so, according to our time estimates, it could have been brought by the Islamic expansion on the 7th century, but definitely not with the Neolithic expansion, which appeared in NW Africa ~7400 BP and may have featured a strong Epipaleolithic persistence31. Moreover, such a recent appearance of E-M183 in NW Africa would fit with the patterns observed in the rest of the genome, where an extensive, male-biased Near Eastern admixture event is registered ~1300 ya, coincidental with the Arab expansion20. An alternative hypothesis would involve that E-M183 was originated somewhere in Northwest Africa and then spread through all the region. Our time estimates for the origin of this haplogroup overlap with the end of the third Punic War (146 BCE), when Carthage (in current Tunisia) was defeated and destroyed, which marked the beginning of Roman hegemony of the Mediterranean Sea. About 2,000 ya North Africa was one of the wealthiest Roman provinces and E-M183 may have experienced the resulting population growth.

Real Berbers carry mostly European paternal lineages btw ;)
https://i.ibb.co/M6wnbVm/unnamed.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Imesmouden
02-20-2021, 01:11 PM
These sample are from Palestinians and Yemenis, not Saudis, and there are way less Palestinians on YFull than there are North Africans so your excuse doesn't work. As for Negev bedouins they all require a bit of African due to the slave trade, but their main component is Levantine, they have in fact far more Levantine ancestry than the European pretenders currently living in the Levant.

https://i.ibb.co/QKn8v4J/Jordan-EBA.png (https://ibb.co/jrGVkS8)

I see that you used Solé-Morata et al, but you forgot that their conclusion is that E-M81 is either a Romano-Phoenician marker or an Arab marker.



Real Berbers carry mostly European paternal lineages btw ;)
https://i.ibb.co/M6wnbVm/unnamed.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

i see that you missed many questions i gave you like what's the importance of being E-Z5009* and what this has to do with the origins of the clade?
why between 4 759 arabian peninsular sample in Yfull the number of E-M165 or E-M107 samples is 0?

Most of palestenians are J1 , J2 , E-M78 , it's not strange that there is some palestenian individuals who carry e-m81 , it is known that there was a huge number of Moroccan soldiers under the rule of Almohads empire who were sent to help saladin in conqueriong jerusalem and most of them settled there

The E-M165 bedouin like i said cluster outside the levantine and bedouins and he has an affinity towards north africans , you already see that in the PCA and i'm too lazy now to send it again

and here is the conclusion of the study you posted

https://scontent.frba2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/143375093_1843160072509818_5596737807414513325_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeEuXSYOcCKWbHSKCpeEZCNHLPr4SLiCD44s-vhIuIIPjoEP5u1TD6kOofO2r1H-5JNTsviZ-psWL9L30BIIhu9V&_nc_ohc=higVL_6La_8AX_uPB_3&_nc_oc=AQmpA2zkYDieaD3x3yHeZQW4DTaXlQ1GY_V-coS5cKcjN7KGh3gNxe0FreaSdh0Onsk&_nc_ht=scontent.frba2-2.fna&oh=b48763367385ff9932069d6eccb0b73a&oe=60582630

also if you agree that M183 is related to carthage and the punic war and it founder effect happened there so it simply means that PF2546 clades were originated in north africa and all PF2546 carriers including the palestenians and the yemeni have a north african origin

"Real Berbers carry mostly European paternal lineages btw" can you provide a source please? since all the studies about guanches gave a berber north african origin of these people

Imesmouden
02-20-2021, 01:15 PM
can you also tell us why there was 0 e-m81 canaanite and phoenician remain in the levant?

https://scontent.frba2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/142841780_1843161859176306_4387250438040013391_o.j pg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeH6up8G3G9nJ3mXmTpUgNYm8q3BMWG_snTyrcExY b-ydPKOywli3AWpH2-Hh6EBNYz-i82Y5-Y8VwC1rHbMDaP2&_nc_ohc=Llid95iP_jEAX_l9ajz&_nc_ht=scontent.frba2-2.fna&oh=0e453648af3ae74412118fbb4e63f551&oe=605787E6

and how the most recent study who talked about IAM.5 classified it as E-M81 , the remain is 7000 years old and it was found in Morocco , is it Romano-Phoenician or Arab?

https://scontent.frba2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/142482341_1843159832509842_4096968570489656720_o.j pg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeF1Xi0BJ5B59ewEhk8e_icwDlcLM9xGQQEOVwsz3 EZBAYOjANr1DPkV5w5YCBV350CeDQBP5iAeAReDa_2mGSGM&_nc_ohc=D4Nh4-HSouwAX8XBHRD&_nc_ht=scontent.frba2-1.fna&oh=72d979c51c4d05f70f627d2e277d2b98&oe=605817B6

https://scontent.frba2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/142483488_1843160639176428_8646801687105569242_o.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeEAhokQBar854w589KvHiFRm1-Kr5hLznibX4qvmEvOeHxsqzN3qE7C0VeoH3_gIqwI8R1KVHRbP lq1OzQzmpYn&_nc_ohc=6ebU-kiuhpMAX-s5L-2&_nc_ht=scontent.frba2-1.fna&oh=091a55b68ef34b455a9cc1002ce6f09d&oe=6056FC0E

RagingBull
02-20-2021, 05:26 PM
Do I need to remind you that several E-Z827>E-Z830>E-PF1962>E-M123 samples have been found in the Levant, and that it is the exclusive haplogroup of the Bronze Age Semitic ruling caste of Megiddo? :)

https://i.ibb.co/bvRpKKQ/Ruling-caste.png (https://ibb.co/ykBLQQd)
https://i.ibb.co/P9BmP1m/Megiddo.jpg (https://ibb.co/Br8zQTz)

IAM.5 is low-coverage sample and contaminated, his actual Y-DNA assignement is uncertain some (e.g. Ted Kandell) say E-L539, others E-L19. Even if he was E-L19, which is doubtful to say the least, he is of Middle Eastern origin anyway so he certainly didn't speak Berber, he probably spoke Proto-Semitic.

https://i.ibb.co/q77tsJp/Levantine.png (https://ibb.co/S55hnfB)
https://i.ibb.co/fd4SNWN/uncertain.png (https://ibb.co/RTzS6K6)

RagingBull
02-20-2021, 05:42 PM
also if you agree that M183 is related to carthage and the punic war and it founder effect happened there so it simply means that PF2546 clades were originated in north africa and all PF2546 carriers including the palestenians and the yemeni have a north african origin
They are of Semitic origin, so they merely back-migrated to their homeland.


"Real Berbers carry mostly European paternal lineages btw" can you provide a source please? since all the studies about guanches gave a berber north african origin of these people
Rodríguez-Varela et al. 2017 singled out E-M81 carriers, but most Guanches belonged to other haplogroups including R1b, I, J, and more.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440316301686?via%3Dihub
https://i.ibb.co/hKZW6hd/unnamed-1.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

capsian
02-20-2021, 06:17 PM
Do I need to remind you that several E-Z827>E-Z830>E-PF1962>E-M123 samples have been found in the Levant, and that it is the exclusive haplogroup of the Bronze Age Semitic ruling caste of Megiddo? :)

https://i.ibb.co/bvRpKKQ/Ruling-caste.png (https://ibb.co/ykBLQQd)
https://i.ibb.co/P9BmP1m/Megiddo.jpg (https://ibb.co/Br8zQTz)

IAM.5 is low-coverage sample and contaminated, his actual Y-DNA assignement is uncertain some (e.g. Ted Kandell) say E-L539, others E-L19. Even if he was E-L19, which is doubtful to say the least, he is of Middle Eastern origin anyway so he certainly didn't speak Berber, he probably spoke Proto-Semitic.

https://i.ibb.co/q77tsJp/Levantine.png (https://ibb.co/S55hnfB)
https://i.ibb.co/fd4SNWN/uncertain.png (https://ibb.co/RTzS6K6)
:D everything you say has nothing to do with reality
i don't know why you talk about the E-Z830 branch and the E-M81 branch and the difference between them is 24,000 years and you forgot that the E-PF2431 branch is not located in the Middle East

Lupriac
02-20-2021, 06:40 PM
The presence of E-Z830 (separated from E-M81's ancestor some 24,000 years ago) in the Levant means E-M81 originated there?? :lol:

RagingBull
02-20-2021, 06:42 PM
:D everything you say has nothing to do with reality
i don't know why you talk about the E-Z830 branch and the E-M81 branch and the difference between them is 24,000 years and you forgot that the E-PF2431 branch is not located in the Middle East
I can talk about E-M310 and E-M165, they're also located in the Middle East. Berbers are mostly R1b and B, I don't understand why you obsess over this haplogroup.

https://i.ibb.co/G2K9yPN/Berbers.png (https://ibb.co/HzWC6g3)

Lupriac
02-20-2021, 06:52 PM
I can talk about E-M310 and E-M165, they're also located in the Middle East. Berbers are mostly R1b and B, I don't understand why you obsess over this haplogroup.

Correction: Siwa Berbers are predominantly R1b and B. Libyan Berbers are mostly E-V65 followed by E-M81 and Western Berbers are predominantly E-M81.

I don't even know how is this relevant by your standards, because you acknowledge E-M81 is most common among Northwest Africans, Berbers and Arabs. The inconsistency and unsoundness of your arguments is clear.

RagingBull
02-20-2021, 07:23 PM
Correction: Siwa Berbers are predominantly R1b and B. Libyan Berbers are mostly E-V65 followed by E-M81 and Western Berbers are predominantly E-M81.

I don't even know how is this relevant by your standards, because you acknowledge E-M81 is most common among Northwest Africans. The inconsistency and unsoundness of your arguments is clear.

The fact that E-M81 is found at low frenquecies among Ancient Berbers and among the speakers of the most conservative Berber language clearly undermines the idea that E-M81 is a Berber marker. Haplogroup E-M81 isn't that predominant among Western Berbers either, it barely reaches 47-50% frequencies among Chaouis, Kabyles and Zenata Berbers, the group with the most E-M81 in Northwestern Africa are Saharan Arabs.

https://i.ibb.co/x51Fb9P/57419008-425720471564611-8281836444461301760-n.jpg (https://ibb.co/pXfhTVG)
https://i.ibb.co/bWLLkMg/33192622-917771291728369-7705642388152123392-n3.png (https://imgbb.com/)

capsian
02-20-2021, 07:50 PM
The fact that E-M81 is found at low frenquecies among Ancient Berbers and among the speakers of the most conservative Berber language clearly undermines the idea that E-M81 is a Berber marker. Haplogroup E-M81 isn't that predominant among Western Berbers either, it barely reaches 47-50% frequencies among Chaouis, Kabyles and Zenata Berbers, the group with the most E-M81 in Northwestern Africa are Saharan Arabs.

https://i.ibb.co/x51Fb9P/57419008-425720471564611-8281836444461301760-n.jpg (https://ibb.co/pXfhTVG)
https://i.ibb.co/bWLLkMg/33192622-917771291728369-7705642388152123392-n3.png (https://imgbb.com/)

u are still insisting on false scientific theories

Lupriac
02-20-2021, 08:29 PM
The fact that E-M81 is found at low frenquecies among Ancient Berbers and among the speakers of the most conservative Berber language clearly undermines the idea that E-M81 is a Berber marker. Haplogroup E-M81 isn't that predominant among Western Berbers either, it barely reaches 47-50% frequencies among Chaouis, Kabyles and Zenata Berbers, the group with the most E-M81 in Northwestern Africa are Saharan Arabs.
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If you take a look at the excerpt from your previous post, you can see the same study state that E-M81 is as high as 86.6% among Mozabites. 47-50% is a high percentage that you're downplaying, compared to the 28% B2a1a and 26% R1b-V88 reported in Siwa Berbers. Not only that, some studies report it exceeding 80% in Moroccan men. (Of course, keeping in mind a high percentage is not a determining factor of where a haplogroup originates, but I'm following your logic). Your logic can be flipped, it's unsound.

And of course, we know that Moroccan Arabs and Moroccan Berbers are virtually identical autosomally, with minor to no differences. So to make further of your case, you should at least prove that the other haplogroups are the "true Berber" founding lineages.

capsian
02-20-2021, 08:34 PM
The presence of E-Z830 (separated from E-M81's ancestor some 24,000 years ago) in the Levant means E-M81 originated there?? :lol:

he does not want the truth
although their predecessor E-Z827 orgin from North africa maybe formedbtw Egypt or North-east Libya

Lupriac
02-20-2021, 08:40 PM
he does not want the truth
although their predecessor E-Z827 orgin from North africa maybe formedbtw Egypt or North-east Libya

The origin of E-Z827 definitely lies somewhere between Northeast or the Horn of Africa, some 25,000 years ago. Looking at the distribution of E-Z830(xM123), it seems to be more so present in the Arabian peninsula, and it likely entered Arabia through the Red sea.
And from there the Mushabians would have brought it with them to the Levant. But this is more speculative.

Lupriac
02-20-2021, 09:04 PM
The fact that E-M81 is found at low frenquecies among Ancient Berbers and among the speakers of the most conservative Berber language clearly undermines the idea that E-M81 is a Berber marker. Haplogroup E-M81 isn't that predominant among Western Berbers either, it barely reaches 47-50% frequencies among Chaouis, Kabyles and Zenata Berbers, the group with the most E-M81 in Northwestern Africa are Saharan Arabs.
Also, who are "Ancient Berbers"?

RagingBull
02-20-2021, 09:24 PM
If you take a look at the excerpt from your previous post, you can see the same study state that E-M81 is as high as 86.6% among Mozabites. 47-50% is a high percentage that you're downplaying, compared to the 28% B2a1a and 26% R1b-V88 reported in Siwa Berbers. Not only that, some studies report it exceeding 80% in Moroccan men. (Of course, keeping in mind a high percentage is not a determining factor of where a haplogroup originates, but I'm following your logic).

Your logic can be flipped, it's unsound.
Mozabites make up less 5 per cent of the Western Berber population, you should stop arguing if you can't the see the flaw in your reasoning. Most Moroccans aren't Berbers either. Your theory is unsound and isn't backed by any facts, rather it relies on several ridiculous claims such as Berbers being the dominant ethnic group in Morocco, Fatimids being Berbers instead of Arabs, Negev Bedouins and Palestinians being descended from these Fatimid soldiers, and many more unproven claims.

You obviously know that your theory is wrong since you do your best to avoid talking about the TMRCA (Fatimids in 1800BC lol???) of E-M165 that outright invalidate your "theory".

capsian
02-20-2021, 10:01 PM
Mozabites make up less 5 per cent of the Western Berber population, you should stop arguing if you can't the see the flaw in your reasoning. Most Moroccans aren't Berbers either. Your theory is unsound and isn't backed by any facts, rather it relies on several ridiculous claims such as Berbers being the dominant ethnic group in Morocco, Fatimids being Berbers instead of Arabs, Negev Bedouins and Palestinians being descended from these Fatimid soldiers, and many more unproven claims.

You obviously know that your theory is wrong since you do your best to avoid talking about the TMRCA (Fatimids in 1800BC lol???) of E-M165 that outright invalidate your "theory".

E-M165 is the grandson of an Amazigh
It cannot change the truth E-M81 is Marker berber
Who are you to change the truth

RagingBull
02-20-2021, 10:06 PM
I'm confused. How did Berbers manage to reach Palestine in 1800 BC when proto-Berber formed in 500 BC. Did they use a time machine? :help:

https://i.ibb.co/V9mMdCr/Proto-Berber.png (https://ibb.co/yPSgDkG)

Squad
02-20-2021, 11:03 PM
I'm confused. How did Berbers manage to reach Palestine in 1800 BC when proto-Berber formed in 500 BC. Did they use a time machine? :help:

https://i.ibb.co/V9mMdCr/Proto-Berber.png (https://ibb.co/yPSgDkG)

Yo you cant be serious are you?? Just because M165 diverged from M183 some 4-5 thousand years ago, does not mean that it reached the Levant at that time. The fact that you said that further confirms your total lack of understanding of population genetics.

Here is one very similar example almost same age same geographical disparity, I'd like RCO to come explain it to you as it is his haplogroup :

J-FGC6031 (known as M365 back in the days) has a current TMRCA of 5200 years, with a "basal" sample in England. In fact even before YFull and the extensive genotyping, it was apparent that the iranian samples clustered with the portuguese ones. But we can safely say that this haplogroup reached the atlantic coast of Europe through a historical migration from the caspian region
and the Alans are clearly the best candidates for such migration. The fact that the english sample is "basal" does not in any way shape or form mean that J-M365 originated in England nor that it was present over there since 5000 years, you would be quite silly to claim that in fact. It only means that no current sample has been found in Iran that would resolve the English sample, either because the initial diversity is lost or that we just don't have enough samples. In either case, J-M365 is clearly from around Iran and there are many ways to demonstrate that.

You are doing THE EXACT SAME THING with M165. This is because you have to go revise your population genetics understanding as it is clearly flawed, not trying to be rude or anything. I would just suggest you to take a break and go familiarize yourself with basic notions.

RagingBull
02-21-2021, 12:20 AM
Yo you cant be serious are you?? Just because M165 diverged from M183 some 4-5 thousand years ago, does not mean that it reached the Levant at that time. The fact that you said that further confirms your total lack of understanding of population genetics.

Here is one very similar example almost same age same geographical disparity, I'd like RCO to come explain it to you as it is his haplogroup :

J-FGC6031 (known as M365 back in the days) has a current TMRCA of 5200 years, with a "basal" sample in England. In fact even before YFull and the extensive genotyping, it was apparent that the iranian samples clustered with the portuguese ones. But we can safely say that this haplogroup reached the atlantic coast of Europe through a historical migration from the caspian region
and the Alans are clearly the best candidates for such migration. The fact that the english sample is "basal" does not in any way shape or form mean that J-M365 originated in England nor that it was present over there since 5000 years, you would be quite silly to claim that in fact. It only means that no current sample has been found in Iran that would resolve the English sample, either because the initial diversity is lost or that we just don't have enough samples. In either case, J-M365 is clearly from around Iran and there are many ways to demonstrate that.

You are doing THE EXACT SAME THING with M165. This is because you have to go revise your population genetics understanding as it is clearly flawed, not trying to be rude or anything. I would just suggest you to take a break and go familiarize yourself with basic notions.

If J-FGC6064* and many sister clades of J-FGC6031 were found in England, I wouldn't be against a scenario where it forms in England and later spread to Armenia. However, J-FGC6031 shows clear sign of a founder effect (Formation 14800 BP - TMRCA 5200 BP) and its presence in England is clearly more recent than the presence of J-Y59693 (Formation: 14800 BP - TMRCA: 13200 BP) in Armenia.

As for E-L19, it shows clear sign of a founder effect (Formation: 17400 ybp - TMRCA: 6500 BP) unlike its sister clade E-Z830 (Formation: 17400 BP - TMRCA 17400 BP ) indicating a long term presence of E-Z827 in the Levant rather than in North Africa, furthermore the upstream subclade E-L19 (E-M310) is only found the Levant and the older subclade of E-M81 is also found in the Levant. Last but not least, the aborigenal inhabitants of the Levant carried E-Z830 and E-M215.

All these facts point to an early dispersal of E-M215 carriers from Egypt to the Levant and the formation of E-Z827 there. E-Z830 and E-M310 likewise formed in the Levant, but that later on some E-PF2548 carriers left their homeland and experienced a population bottleneck around 300 BC. This population bottleneck coincides to the end of the First Punic War and the ensuing Mercenary War. It is know that the Phoenicians put down the insurgents in the most ruthless fashion, voiding Tunisia of any Libyan presence and repopulating entire regions with Phoenician settlers. Tunisia remains to this day a hotspot of E-M81 (unlike Libya, Morocco and Algeria) "thanks" to their efforts.

capsian
02-21-2021, 12:43 AM
If J-FGC6064* and many sister clades of J-FGC6031 were found in England, I wouldn't be against a scenario where it forms in England and later spread to Armenia. However, J-FGC6031 shows clear sign of a founder effect (Formation 14800 BP - TMRCA 5200 BP) and its presence in England is clearly more recent than the presence of J-Y59693 (Formation: 14800 BP - TMRCA: 13200 BP) in Armenia.

As for E-L19, it shows clear sign of a founder effect (Formation: 17400 ybp - TMRCA: 6500 BP) unlike its sister clade E-Z830 (Formation: 17400 BP - TMRCA 17400 BP ) indicating a long term presence of E-Z827 in the Levant rather than in North Africa, furthermore the upstream subclade E-L19 (E-M310) is only found the Levant and the older subclade of E-M81 is also found in the Levant. Last but not least, the aborigenal inhabitants of the Levant carried E-Z830 and E-M215.

All these facts point to an early dispersal of E-M215 carriers from Egypt to the Levant and the formation of E-Z827 there. E-Z830 and E-M310 likewise formed in the Levant, but that later on some E-PF2548 carriers left their homeland and experienced a population bottleneck around 300 BC. This population bottleneck coincides to the end of the First Punic War and the ensuing Mercenary War. It is know that the Phoenicians put down the insurgents in the most ruthless fashion, voiding Tunisia of any Libyan presence and repopulating entire regions with Phoenician settlers. Tunisia remains to this day a hotspot of E-M81 (unlike Libya, Morocco and Algeria) "thanks" to their efforts.

far from reality as usual

RagingBull
02-21-2021, 12:51 AM
far from reality as usual
And as usual berberists have no arguments beside calling Palestinians "their grandsons". No wonder geneticists overwhelmingly support a Phoenician over a Berberist origin.

capsian
02-21-2021, 01:05 AM
And as usual berberists have no arguments beside calling Palestinians "their grandsons". No wonder geneticists overwhelmingly support a Phoenician over a Berberist origin.

Unfortunately, E-L19 belongs to amazigh people they are ancient and indigenous people in North Africa and you cannot change this truth

RagingBull
02-21-2021, 01:21 AM
More pseudo-scientific delusions. Rosa Fregel admitted herself that this sample isn't actually E-L19, but simply inferred to be E-L19.

https://i.ibb.co/35bqbDD/Epj-SE-OW8-AE6-Jl-U.jpg (https://ibb.co/ymC1Cww)

capsian
02-21-2021, 01:50 AM
More pseudo-scientific delusions. Rosa Fregel admitted herself that this sample isn't actually E-L19, but simply inferred to be E-L19.

https://i.ibb.co/35bqbDD/Epj-SE-OW8-AE6-Jl-U.jpg (https://ibb.co/ymC1Cww)

You know the truth, but you like your silly theory and that your comments are all contradictory

Squad
02-21-2021, 02:38 AM
If J-FGC6064* and many sister clades of J-FGC6031 were found in England, I wouldn't be against a scenario where it forms in England and later spread to Armenia. However, J-FGC6031 shows clear sign of a founder effect (Formation 14800 BP - TMRCA 5200 BP) and its presence in England is clearly more recent than the presence of J-Y59693 (Formation: 14800 BP - TMRCA: 13200 BP) in Armenia.

As for E-L19, it shows clear sign of a founder effect (Formation: 17400 ybp - TMRCA: 6500 BP) unlike its sister clade E-Z830 (Formation: 17400 BP - TMRCA 17400 BP ) indicating a long term presence of E-Z827 in the Levant rather than in North Africa, furthermore the upstream subclade E-L19 (E-M310) is only found the Levant and the older subclade of E-M81 is also found in the Levant. Last but not least, the aborigenal inhabitants of the Levant carried E-Z830 and E-M215.

All these facts point to an early dispersal of E-M215 carriers from Egypt to the Levant and the formation of E-Z827 there. E-Z830 and E-M310 likewise formed in the Levant, but that later on some E-PF2548 carriers left their homeland and experienced a population bottleneck around 300 BC. This population bottleneck coincides to the end of the First Punic War and the ensuing Mercenary War. It is know that the Phoenicians put down the insurgents in the most ruthless fashion, voiding Tunisia of any Libyan presence and repopulating entire regions with Phoenician settlers. Tunisia remains to this day a hotspot of E-M81 (unlike Libya, Morocco and Algeria) "thanks" to their efforts.

Ohhhh my... this is too much seriously. I'm baffled like for real. FGC6064 spread from England to Armenia, you keep surprising me although I didn't think this was possible, I just got proven wrong. This is literally the pinnacle of non sense as far as population genetics is concerned. I mean, cmon now.

Wait there's more !!! The TMRCA of E-L19 is 6500 years. I thought I clearly explained to you that this is a mistake didn't I. Ah never mind, it's not like you listen anyways. But hey, Yfull gon correct this issue in a few days. What silly argument will you be making this time??

I'll say it again, you remind me of my 12 years old self when I just got into population genetics. Guys, remember those days when we were all about frequency and stuff? This guy literally think that a "basal" clade means that it is more ancient. Whereas in truth there is no such thing as basal. Basal is a relative term as we all are contemporary to each other, each line has accumulated SNPs in its own direction. M165 is no more basal than M183, we only say that because it is a minor branch compared to M183. But if most M81 were M165 and M183 was minor, we would be saying that M183 is basal instead. The only way to really be basal is if you go back in time, a M81 sample 7000 years ago is closer to the base than any individual today. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say

Farroukh
02-21-2021, 01:41 PM
Ages of all E subclades were turned off for recalculation. Let us wait for a while and see corrected data. Age of E-M81 was completely shocking and unrelated with history of Northern Africa.

Squad
02-21-2021, 02:48 PM
Ages of all E subclades were turned off for recalculation. Let us wait for a while and see corrected data. Age of E-M81 was completely shocking and unrelated with history of Northern Africa.

Not gonna happen. The ages will stay the same, M81 has a young expansion no doubt. This was always clear even by looking at Y-STRs.

Lupriac
02-21-2021, 02:53 PM
Mozabites make up less 5 per cent of the Western Berber population, you should stop arguing if you can't the see the flaw in your reasoning. Most Moroccans aren't Berbers either. Your theory is unsound and isn't backed by any facts, rather it relies on several ridiculous claims such as Berbers being the dominant ethnic group in Morocco, Fatimids being Berbers instead of Arabs, Negev Bedouins and Palestinians being descended from these Fatimid soldiers, and many more unproven claims.

You obviously know that your theory is wrong since you do your best to avoid talking about the TMRCA (Fatimids in 1800BC lol???) of E-M165 that outright invalidate your "theory".

I didn't 'theorize' about anything, I'm pointing out flaws in your arguments. I never claimed the Fatimids were Berbers, what is essentially true is that the Fatimid army was mostly made up of North African soldiers, especially Kutama Berbers. I also never claimed that Palestinians and Negev Bedouins are descended from Fatimid soldiers, only that those specific individuals tested who are E-M81>Z5009 MIGHT be.

I don't understand why it's possible that Negev Bedouins have J1 subclades that came during the Islamic era from Arabia, but for E-M81>M165 it's definitely not North African. Can't you see the problem?

The presence of ONE E-M165 is not enough to make a case for an origin from the Levant, is what I'm saying. Who knows, maybe we're in a surprise once we have more ancient DNA from North Africa, the Levant, and Iberia. For the time being, the E-L19* from Neolithic North Africa and the presence of E-L19(xM81) in North Africa suggest otherwise.

Farroukh
02-21-2021, 03:00 PM
Not gonna happen. The ages will stay the same, M81 has a young expansion no doubt. This was always clear even by looking at Y-STRs.
Age of E-M81 was the main reason to doubt the ages and recalculation. Forget Y-STRs, if you have Y-DNA NGS results.

Adules
02-21-2021, 03:03 PM
How come this site lets petty nationalists/ethnic chauvinists post here?

RagingBull
02-22-2021, 01:31 PM
Ohhhh my... this is too much seriously. I'm baffled like for real. FGC6064 spread from England to Armenia, you keep surprising me although I didn't think this was possible, I just got proven wrong. This is literally the pinnacle of non sense as far as population genetics is concerned. I mean, cmon now.
I'm getting tired of your strawmans and ad hominems. Arabs carry all subclades of E-L19, E-M81 and E-Z830, whereas Berbers belong to extremely young subclades of E-M81 downstream of Arabs. Your Fatimid "theory" is the same as the Out of India Theory, a poor attempt to cope with the fact that you are the offspring of conquerors and not indigenous to Africa.

capsian
02-22-2021, 04:47 PM
and vice versa, you are the one who is a descendant of the Berbers who went to the Middle East

capsian
02-22-2021, 04:50 PM
I'm getting tired of your strawmans and ad hominems. Arabs carry all subclades of E-L19, E-M81 and E-Z830, whereas Berbers belong to extremely young subclades of E-M81 downstream of Arabs. Your Fatimid "theory" is the same as the Out of India Theory, a poor attempt to cope with the fact that you are the offspring of conquerors and not indigenous to Africa.

and vice versa, you are the one who is a descendant of the Berbers who went to the Middle East

Farroukh
02-22-2021, 05:24 PM
Guys, let's stop meaningless brawling and wait for the corrected age of E-M81. Then you will see who is Berber, who is Batman or whoever you want to be in this world :)

Squad
02-22-2021, 07:34 PM
I'm getting tired of your strawmans and ad hominems. Arabs carry all subclades of E-L19, E-M81 and E-Z830, whereas Berbers belong to extremely young subclades of E-M81 downstream of Arabs. Your Fatimid "theory" is the same as the Out of India Theory, a poor attempt to cope with the fact that you are the offspring of conquerors and not indigenous to Africa.

Arabs do not often carry E-M81 and when they do, it's clearly of historical origins. Stop fooling yourself, who cares about being descendant from these or those. At the end it's only a science to understand our past, against which we can't fight, it already happened. Just like you are descendant of some berber soldier if you're a middle eastern M81. Deep down you know for a fact that what you are claiming is nonsense. Don't you see the clear east-west cline of M81? Why would Egypt have close to 10%? Phoenicians lol? Where is the CHG ancestry among the Berbers, just where is it lol. Pre-M81 in Morocco with clear affinity to Iberomaurusians. PF2431's ancient diffusion in the whole northwestern quadrant of Africa. M81 being the third most common haplogroup in Somalia, is it phoenician too? And I've seen you claiming that V65 is absent in the Middle East. Well guess what, that's false as it is present as far as Turkey and Iran. Again clear north african historical origin.

Do you really think that an exotic haplogroup like E-M81 would miraculously become a signature endemic line for a specific region while coming from. And just by coincidence, it belongs to M35, an african haplogroup. From all the haplogroups the Phoenicians belonged to, only the extremely exotic M81 would become dominant in a region for which it even became the signature line. Where are the common bronze age and modern near-eastern haplogroups among the Berbers? Where are J-M205, J-YSC76, J-L829 ?

But nah, it just so happens that only this single exotic line migrated to North Africa. It probably was tired of being so rare and told the others that it is moving for North Africa where it wants to become the signature haplogroup.

But you know what, I think I'm the real fool here. Because I'm actually responding to your nonsense. I don't know how come the moderators haven't got you in check yet. You are embarrassing yourself.

drobbah
02-22-2021, 07:46 PM
M81 being the third most common haplogroup in Somalia, is it phoenician too?
I have yet to see a Somali with that haplogroup, E-M81 is practically non-existent in the Horn

Squad
02-22-2021, 08:04 PM
I have yet to see a Somali with that haplogroup, E-M81 is practically non-existent in the Horn

Third most common I tell you

drobbah
02-22-2021, 08:07 PM
Third most common I tell you
Maybe you might find it among the Benadiris which is a foreign population that lives on the southern coast of Somalia.The third most common haplogroup for ethnic Somalis after E-V32 and T-Y45591 is J-P58.Wherever you are getting your information, it is clearly incorrect.

Squad
02-22-2021, 08:22 PM
Maybe you might find it among the Benadiris which is a foreign population that lives on the southern coast of Somalia.The third most common haplogroup for ethnic Somalis after E-V32 and T-Y45591 is J-P58.Wherever you are getting your information, it is clearly incorrect.

Ok I'll show you. 1.5% in the first study and 4.8% in the second. So in a sample size of like 350, there is 10 E-M81 thus about 3%. Slightly more common than J1. These are regular Somalis, both studies show more than 75% E-V32 and about 10% T.

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201390/figures/1

www.fsigeneticssup.com ›
Population data of 12 Y-STR loci from a Somali population

I am therefore right

drobbah
02-22-2021, 08:28 PM
Ok I'll show you. 1.5% in the first study and 4.8% in the second. So in a sample size of like 350, there is 10 E-M81 thus about 3%. Slightly more common than J1. These are regular Somalis, both studies show more than 75% E-V32 and about 10% T.

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201390/figures/1

www.fsigeneticssup.com ›
Population data of 12 Y-STR loci from a Somali population

I am therefore right
Those studies included non-ethnic Somalis which is why foreign haplogroups such as E-M81,E-M2 for example were showing up.Somalis are structured by strong patrichal clans and to be Somali you must come from a clan.There is no ethnic Somali carrying Berber E-M81 or Bantu E-M2.You are no different than RagingBull.

I would say in Somaliweyn 60-70% carry E-V32, 15-25% carry T and rest are dominated by J1.There is not a single subclan that is coming out E-M81

Squad
02-22-2021, 08:32 PM
Those studies included non-ethnic Somalis which is why foreign haplogroups such as E-M81,E-M2 for example were showing up.Somalis are structured by strong patrichal clans and to be Somali you must come from a clan.There is no ethnic Somali carrying Berber E-M81 or Bantu E-M2.You are no different than RagingBull.

I would say in Somaliweyn 60-70% carry E-V32, 15-25% carry T and rest are dominated by J1.There is not a single subclan that is coming out E-M81

Bro how many samples have you been through? E-M81 is in Somalia bro, we're talking hundreds of samples here not just a few commercial tests. It is not surprising to see that E-M2 has some presence, no population is free from adnixture no matter what they say about clans and stuff. Plus let me tell you, there was a Somali E-M81 indivudual at the ftDNA somali project but I can't access the group anymore.

Why would M81 be the only one that comes out often, where are the berber foreigners in Somalia??

drobbah
02-22-2021, 08:38 PM
Bro how many samples have you been through?
I can tell you by a clan by clan basis which haplogroup dominates who as the Somali male populations due to our culture and way of life causes many founder effects.There is no Somali E-M81 but there were a few sheikhs from the Maghreb that ended up in the Horn.These Benadiris are an amalgamation of various foreign Muslims from all over the Islamic world that ended up creating their own distinct community.

Studies can be skewed if a certain clan or region is overrepresented.One city dominated by a clan would nearly be 90% E-V32 and another major city next door belonging to another clan could be 80% T-M70.Arabian J1 and even Afar E-V6 is more common than E-M81, even other Somali users on this forum would tell you the same.

Squad
02-22-2021, 08:47 PM
I can tell you by a clan by clan basis which haplogroup dominates who as the Somali male populations due to our culture and way of life causes many founder effects.There is no Somali E-M81 but there were a few sheikhs from the Maghreb that ended up in the Horn.These Benadiris are an amalgamation of various foreign Muslims from all over the Islamic world that ended up creating their own distinct community.

Studies can skewed if a certain clan or region is overrepresented.One city dominated by a clan would nearly be 90% E-V32 and another major city next door belonging to another clan could be 80% T-M70.Arabian J1 and even Afar E-V6 is more common than E-M81, even other Somali users on this forum would tell you the same.

Bro E-M81 is different, it's the only one that has a substantial frequency. These samples like I told you have 90% V32+T, are Benadiris 30% M81 lol? I havent seen a single one. Try to find the somali M81 guy on ftDNA and see where he from.

We're talking 3% here, same as J1 or slightly more common. Among regular somali samples with less than 5% haplogroup A+B+E1b1a+E2+G+H+J2+L+R

E-M81's situation clearly is different

drobbah
02-22-2021, 08:59 PM
Bro E-M81 is different, it's the only one that has a substantial frequency. These samples like I told you have 90% V32+T, are Benadiris 30% M81 lol? I havent seen a single one. Try to find the somali M81 guy on ftDNA and see where he from.

We're talking 3% here, same as J1 or slightly more common. Among regular somali samples with less than 5% haplogroup A+B+E1b1a+E2+G+J2+L+R
There is no ethnic Somali E-M81,how can a haplogroup be the third most common lineage yet none of the members of the Somali clans are showing any? Neither have none of them showed the other haplogroups mentioned in the study.The study was overrepresented probably by the Benadiri and foreign clans similar to them like the Ashraaf and Sheikhaal.

You can't expect to create a false narrative such as E-M81 being an important lineage among Somalis of the Horn when it doesn't even show up among us.You also can't use a skewed study with a Somali familiar with our clan structures and founder effects.There is no E-M81 Somali, those men are probably Benadiri sames goes for the other foreign haplogroups you mentioned.The lineages associated with Somalis are E-V32 (and other E-M35 lineages associated with Cushites),T-M70,E-V16 and J1-P58.

The Futuh Al Habasha a manuscript written during the 16th century Jihad against Abysinnia mentioned a few Ulama (scholars) who had the last name of Al-Maghribi.Some of these men alongside Ba'alawis Sayyids left Somaliland for the more prosperous and more cosmopolitan south (Mogadishu).Where they created a sort of colored community alongside other foreign muslims.

Squad
02-22-2021, 09:07 PM
There is no ethnic Somali E-M81,how can a haplogroup be the third most common lineage yet none of the members of the Somali clans are showing any? Neither have none of them showed the other haplogroups mentioned in the study.The study was overrepresented probably by the Benadiri and foreign clans similar to them like the Ashraaf and Sheikhaal.

You can't expect to create a false narrative such as E-M81 being an important lineage among Somalis of the Horn when it doesn't even show up among us.You also can't use a skewed study with a Somali familiar with our clan structures and founder effects.There is no E-M81 Somali, those men are probably Benadiri sames goes for the other foreign haplogroups you mentioned.The lineages associated with Somalis are E-V32 (and other E-M35 lineages associated with Cushites),T-M70,E-V16 and J1-P58.

The Futuh Al Habasha a manuscript written during the 16th century Jihad against Abysinnia mentioned a few Ulama (scholars) who had the last name of Al-Maghribi.Some of these men alongside Ba'alawis Sayyids left Somaliland for the more prosperous and more cosmopolitan south (Mogadishu).Where they created a sort of colored community alongside other foreign muslims.

Maybr because third most common in Somalia still means it's rare? Unless you tell me about the somali M81 at ftDNA and his clan whereabouts, you can't say that E-M81 just lile P58 hasn't made to somali clans, most likely during the historical era. What if they're M165, now that would be interesting, although I think they're probably historical Z5009.

Remember that 3% is less than 1 in 30, how many Somalis you personally know have tested?

If I remember correctly the Somali M81 guy a ftDNA, I think his surname was Hassan or something close

RagingBull
02-22-2021, 09:13 PM
Arabs do not often carry E-M81 and when they do, it's clearly of historical origins. Stop fooling yourself, who cares about being descendant from these or those. At the end it's only a science to understand our past, against which we can't fight, it already happened. Just like you are descendant of some berber soldier if you're a middle eastern M81. Deep down you know for a fact that what you are claiming is nonsense. Don't you see the clear east-west cline of M81? Why would Egypt have close to 10%? Phoenicians lol? Where is the CHG ancestry among the Berbers, just where is it lol. Pre-M81 in Morocco with clear affinity to Iberomaurusians. PF2431's ancient diffusion in the whole northwestern quadrant of Africa. M81 being the third most common haplogroup in Somalia, is it phoenician too? And I've seen you claiming that V65 is absent in the Middle East. Well guess what, that's false as it is present as far as Turkey and Iran. Again clear north african historical origin.

Do you really think that an exotic haplogroup like E-M81 would miraculously become a signature endemic line for a specific region while coming from. And just by coincidence, it belongs to M35, an african haplogroup. From all the haplogroups the Phoenicians belonged to, only the extremely exotic M81 would become dominant in a region for which it even became the signature line. Where are the common bronze age and modern near-eastern haplogroups among the Berbers? Where are J-M205, J-YSC76, J-L829 ?

But nah, it just so happens that only this single exotic line migrated to North Africa. It probably was tired of being so rare and told the others that it is moving for North Africa where it wants to become the signature haplogroup.

But you know what, I think I'm the real fool here. Because I'm actually responding to your nonsense. I don't know how come the moderators haven't got you in check yet. You are embarrassing yourself.

Reguibis: 48 out of 60, 80% of the population. Source: Bekada et al. 2013.
Hassanis: 105 out of 189, 55% of the population. Source: Bekada et al. 2014.
Idrisis: 69* out of 136, 50.73% of the population. Source: Idrisid Tribes Project.
Arabs from Djerba: 44 out of 47, 93.6% of the population. Source: Manni et al 2005.
Arabs from El Hayez: 10 out of 35, 28.6% of the population. Source: Kujanova et al. 2009. Meanwhile, Egyptians Berbers: 1 out of 93, 1.1% of the population. Source: Dugoujon et al. 2009. :rofl:
Arabs from Morocco: 23 out of 44, 52.3% of the population. Source: Bosch et al. 2001.

*not all are under E-M81, but most are

drobbah
02-22-2021, 09:17 PM
You're actually delusional if you think E-M81 is the third most common lineage among Somalis.These studies were taken in the diaspora where the Benadiris are overrepresented.During the collapse of the government in Southern Somalia in 91, the Somalis there returned to their clan systems.The foreign minority groups who were attacked and don't have the numbers to defend themselves like the Benadiri fled with most of them living in Europe.Certain countries Somali diaspora are also dominated by certain clans.

J1 and E-M81 are not linked at all.There has been Semitic presences in the Eastern Horn for thousands of years.Which is why J-P58 is spread out among different Northern subclans not just on the coast but in the interior and doesn't really follow pattern which means they been present for a long time.E-M81 is restricted to the foreign community whether you want to admit or not and arrived with a few sheikhs in medieval age.You would have a better chance of finding an Indian R1a than a Berber E-M81

Squad
02-22-2021, 09:20 PM
You can't be serious bro, you act like the clans are 100% without any kind of historical admixture. 0.5% haplogroup L for instance, it is not important therefore it doesn't have to be a Benadiri, it can be a regular Somali autosomally but that has a south asian historical paternal ancestor. What's the big deal? Many people are tribal but still have minor haplogroups, look at the kuwaiti bedouin study, some tribes were close to 100% J1 some had a very slight presence of other haplogroups, others have a mixed profile.

E-M81 is one of the most common haplogroups among Somalis, unless you can come up with like 200 commercial tests with known tribal affiliation and show me that it is absent. However, I never said it was important, only that it consistently appears at significant frequencies in samples who are otherwise completely dominated by V32+T. There is no reason for it to be that common relative to other foreign haplogroups, who barely have any presence. Any explanation for that?

I also never said it was linked to P58, only that it's not suprising for either to have made it within the clans

drobbah
02-22-2021, 09:24 PM
You can't be serious bro, you act like the clans are 100% without any kind of historical admixture. 0.5% haplogroup L for instance, it is not important therefore it doesn't have to be a Benadiri, it can be a regular Somali autosomally but that has a south asian historical paternal ancestor. What's the big deal? Many people are tribal but still have minor haplogroups, look at the kuwaiti bedouin study, some tribes were close to 100% J1 some had a very slight presence of other haplogroups, others have a mixed profile.

E-M81 is one of the most common haplogroups among Somalis, unless you can come up with like 200 commercial tests with known tribal affiliation and show me that it is absent.
A dude who knows absolutely nothing about the Somali clan system or our history is trying to teach me about my own people.I know you really wish your people's haplogroup of E-M81 was an important lineage outside the Maghreb or Iberia but it just isn't.E-M81 doesn't exist among ethnic Somalis.I will definitely try to track down this mythical Somali E-M81 but I'm 99% sure he isn't from an ethnic Somali clan

Squad
02-22-2021, 09:26 PM
A dude who knows absolutely nothing about the Somali clan system or our history is trying to teach me about my own people.I know you really wish your people's haplogroup of E-M81 was an important lineage outside the Maghreb or Iberia but it just isn't.E-M81 doesn't exist among ethnic Somalis.I will definitely try to track down this mythical Somali E-M81 but I'm 99% sure he isn't from an ethnic Somali clan

Track him down broski. Also, let's meet in Toronto and sample em Malis fam ! Hahahah

And bro i don't care if M81 is common or whatever, why would I wish that lol -.-

Squad
02-22-2021, 09:38 PM
M81 is also important in Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, Sardinia, Sicily, the Channel Islands, Senegambia and of course Somalia until proven otherwise haha

Squad
02-22-2021, 09:43 PM
Reguibis: 48 out of 60, 80% of the population. Source: Bekada et al. 2013.
Hassanis: 105 out of 189, 55% of the population. Source: Bekada et al. 2014.
Idrisis: 69* out of 136, 50.73% of the population. Source: Idrisid Tribes Project.
Arabs from Djerba: 44 out of 47, 93.6% of the population. Source: Manni et al 2005.
Arabs from El Hayez: 10 out 35, 28.6% of the population. Source: Kujanova et al. 2009. Meanwhile, Egyptians Berbers: 1 out of 93, 1.1% of the population. Source: Dugoujon et al. 2009. :rofl:
Arabs from Morocco: 23 out of 44, 52.3% of the population. Source: Bosch et al. 2001.

*not all are under E-M81, but most are

These are not Arabs, unless Haitians are French too

drobbah
02-22-2021, 09:46 PM
M81 is also important in Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, Sardinia, Sicily, the Channel Islands, Senegambia and of course Somalia until proven otherwise haha
Important among Somalis of the Horn yet not found in any ethnic Somali lmao.Keep dreaming bud, hopefully one day you will find these Somali Berbers

Squad
02-22-2021, 09:49 PM
Important among Somalis of the Horn yet not found in any ethnic Somali lmao.Keep dreaming bud, hopefully one day you will find these Somali Berbers

Start by tracking down the ftDNA guy. Try to access the Somali project at ftDNA im pretty sure you'll find him over there

RagingBull
02-22-2021, 10:04 PM
They are the original inhabitants of the Levant as well as the creators of the Semitic languages. Zagrosians are language shifters that adopted a strain of Semitic and have been trying to usurp the identity of the original owners since then.

In your analogy, Zagrosians are the Haitians and they are the French.

davit
02-22-2021, 10:08 PM
They are the original inhabitants of the Levant as well as the creators of the Semitic languages. Zagrosians are language shifters that adopted a strain of Semitic and have been trying to usurp the identity of the original owners since then.

In your analogy, Zagrosians are the Haitians and they are the French.

Zagrosian? As in the proposed family encompassing Dravidian and Elamite?

RagingBull
02-22-2021, 10:40 PM
Zagrosian? As in the proposed family encompassing Dravidian and Elamite?
An Hurro-Urartian speaking people who settled in the Levant during the Chalcolithic period. They mingled with West Semites and adopted their languages. They are directly responsible for the decrease in Natufian ancestry and paternal lineages in the Levant. North African Arabs are closer to Neolithic Levantines than Middle Easterners because they never mixed with these newcomers.

https://i.ibb.co/pwg2wvy/Phoenician.png (https://imgbb.com/)

Squad
02-22-2021, 10:49 PM
An Hurro-Urartian speaking people who settled in the Levant during the Chacolithic period. They mingled with West Semites and adopted their languages. They are directly responsible for the decrease in Natufian ancestry and paternal lineages in the Levant. North African Arabs are closer to Neolithic Levantines than Middle Easterners because they never mixed with these newcomers.

https://i.ibb.co/pwg2wvy/Phoenician.png (https://imgbb.com/)

Berber languages came from Egypt with the Capsians, a population that was very natufian-like, just like ancient Egyptians themselves were. E-L19 was in the Maghreb before afro-asiatic expanded, it is iberomaurusian, just like old and extinct E-M78 found in Taforalt. This is why E-
V2729 is maghrebi as well.
Berbers brought E-V65 and E-V22 mostly

Squad
02-22-2021, 11:05 PM
Important among Somalis of the Horn yet not found in any ethnic Somali lmao.Keep dreaming bud, hopefully one day you will find these Somali Berbers

Somalis and Maghrebis are cousins anyway. Many Maghrebis even look like light-skinned Somalis. A very common moroccan phenotype has somali-like features : lean built, curly hair, buck-teeth, narrow face, long skull, tall stature. This type is of clear east African derivation.

Non negroid admixed Tuareg would probably have the highest iberomaurusian affinity among all Berbers, they are the most east african looking Berbers. They're even one of the tallest populations in the world, probably second or third

RagingBull
02-22-2021, 11:16 PM
I agree with you that Iberomaurusians are ancestral to Berbers. North African Arabs are on a different branch of E-M215 tho, they carry E-M81 and IBM carry E-M78.

Squad
02-22-2021, 11:57 PM
I agree with you that Iberomaurusians are ancestral to Berbers. North African Arabs are on a different branch of E-M215 tho, they carry E-M81 and IBM carry E-M78.

No bro, North African Arabs are mostly Berbers with some arabian admixture, that's it. Let's get over this bro c'mon. E-L19 is IBM too, you can't say that IBM are only M78 just because 5 samples from a single location were found to be M78. L19 is clearly IBM as well, as evidenced by PF2431's ancient diffusion, from Gambia to Europe to Chad.

By the way, E-L19 originates in the horn. The most divergent L19 sample I've ever seen is a kenyan Borana and I'm 100% confident that he would push the TMRCA of L19 to 20 000 years or something.

Adules
02-23-2021, 12:07 AM
North Africans don't cluster with Arabians. So they aren't Arabians.

RagingBull
02-23-2021, 01:15 AM
No bro, North African Arabs are mostly Berbers with some arabian admixture, that's it. Let's get over this bro c'mon. E-L19 is IBM too, you can't say that IBM are only M78 just because 5 samples from a single location were found to be M78. L19 is clearly IBM as well, as evidenced by PF2431's ancient diffusion, from Gambia to Europe to Chad.

By the way, E-L19 originates in the horn. The most divergent L19 sample I've ever seen is a kenyan Borana and I'm 100% confident that he would push the TMRCA of L19 to 20 000 years or something.
Sarcasm won't get you anywhere. E-Z827 and Natufian ancestry peak among Tunisians, not among Berbers nor Ethiopians.

Aben Aboo
02-23-2021, 01:22 AM
North Africans don't cluster with Arabians. So they aren't Arabians.

Most of them are arabs on ethnicity view, but for genetic view yeah they are mainly "North Africans"...

Squad
02-23-2021, 01:24 AM
Sarcasm won't get you anywhere. E-Z827 and Natufian ancestry peak among Tunisians, not among Berbers nor Ethiopians.

Im done with you, wait until more prehistoric maghrebis are sampled, you'll see L19 popping out like crazy.

"Natufian ancestry as a whole is much higher in Libya than in Tunisia. Some of it is berber (capsian), some is medieval arabian. Capsians brought afro-asiatic to the Maghreb, they were natufian-like.

capsian
02-23-2021, 08:10 AM
No bro, North African Arabs are mostly Berbers with some arabian admixture, that's it. Let's get over this bro c'mon. E-L19 is IBM too, you can't say that IBM are only M78 just because 5 samples from a single location were found to be M78. L19 is clearly IBM as well, as evidenced by PF2431's ancient diffusion, from Gambia to Europe to Chad.

By the way, E-L19 originates in the horn. The most divergent L19 sample I've ever seen is a kenyan Borana and I'm 100% confident that he would push the TMRCA of L19 to 20 000 years or something.

There are 2 samples new under haplgroup E-Z21068 From Egypt and algeria and sample from study Boattini et al. 2013
most likelyunder E-Z21068* or E-P2431*

Imesmouden
02-23-2021, 10:55 AM
Reguibis: 48 out of 60, 80% of the population. Source: Bekada et al. 2013.
Hassanis: 105 out of 189, 55% of the population. Source: Bekada et al. 2014.
Idrisis: 69* out of 136, 50.73% of the population. Source: Idrisid Tribes Project.
Arabs from Djerba: 44 out of 47, 93.6% of the population. Source: Manni et al 2005.
Arabs from El Hayez: 10 out of 35, 28.6% of the population. Source: Kujanova et al. 2009. Meanwhile, Egyptians Berbers: 1 out of 93, 1.1% of the population. Source: Dugoujon et al. 2009. :rofl:
Arabs from Morocco: 23 out of 44, 52.3% of the population. Source: Bosch et al. 2001.

*not all are under E-M81, but most are

https://scontent.frba3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/152491205_1863318390493986_2297447440675300987_o.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeEbP3qy24SvKgsJoLHHecOKErVYTaLkOfkStVhNo uQ5-ay_Rc9Fu43iahMAE9Ut8snkMolVUj7kBXRLweAu3Tgp&_nc_ohc=go9-nuvjRqkAX8gjm2d&_nc_ht=scontent.frba3-2.fna&oh=72d789d9744e969f135c37f5545bf73a&oe=605A3366

https://scontent.frba3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/153183783_1863318517160640_5972317796698880352_o.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeH8MTYqUyRukh3D6Rk8GeMNLcCX3IPxxostwJfcg _HGi2odThdNmWNmu8Eza_er6YMWoX2OCFI5KaTiV2fmFzJO&_nc_ohc=ssKs8rTLOOsAX9_9iwL&_nc_ht=scontent.frba3-2.fna&oh=c34f8e46326b45c17ec8e61f413eae95&oe=6058A280

are these the arabs you are talking about?

Imesmouden
02-23-2021, 11:03 AM
Reguibis: 48 out of 60, 80% of the population. Source: Bekada et al. 2013.
Hassanis: 105 out of 189, 55% of the population. Source: Bekada et al. 2014.
Idrisis: 69* out of 136, 50.73% of the population. Source: Idrisid Tribes Project.
Arabs from Djerba: 44 out of 47, 93.6% of the population. Source: Manni et al 2005.
Arabs from El Hayez: 10 out of 35, 28.6% of the population. Source: Kujanova et al. 2009. Meanwhile, Egyptians Berbers: 1 out of 93, 1.1% of the population. Source: Dugoujon et al. 2009. :rofl:
Arabs from Morocco: 23 out of 44, 52.3% of the population. Source: Bosch et al. 2001.

*not all are under E-M81, but most are

Alright how about this

https://i.imgur.com/9R3ecwH.png

Lupriac
02-23-2021, 11:52 AM
You know the end of this discussion is fruitful when one side of the conversation thinks the people currently living in the Levant are "Zagrosian"/European pretenders who appropriated the language of the ancient inhabitants of the region, and then proceeds to link them with the Hurro-Urartian language.
Not only that, at first he ties E-M81 with the Phoenicians, and now it came with the Arab expansions. :noidea:

RagingBull
02-23-2021, 05:39 PM
Alright how about this

https://i.imgur.com/9R3ecwH.png
Jradou is an Arab village, its inhabitants are Jlassis. Bou Omran and Bou Saad are likewise Arab villages, and settled by Hamama. Chenini-Douiret and Sened are indeed Berber villages but they received many waves of Bedouins.

Imesmouden
02-23-2021, 05:52 PM
Jradou is an Arab village, its inhabitants are Jlassis. Bou Omran and Bou Saad are likewise Arab villages, and settled by Hamama. Chenini-Douiret and Sened are indeed Berber villages but they received many waves of Bedouins.

And again

https://scontent.frba3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/152491205_1863318390493986_2297447440675300987_o.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeEbP3qy24SvKgsJoLHHecOKErVYTaLkOfkStVhNo uQ5-ay_Rc9Fu43iahMAE9Ut8snkMolVUj7kBXRLweAu3Tgp&_nc_ohc=go9-nuvjRqkAX8gjm2d&_nc_ht=scontent.frba3-2.fna&oh=72d789d9744e969f135c37f5545bf73a&oe=605A3366

https://scontent.frba3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/153183783_1863318517160640_5972317796698880352_o.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeH8MTYqUyRukh3D6Rk8GeMNLcCX3IPxxostwJfcg _HGi2odThdNmWNmu8Eza_er6YMWoX2OCFI5KaTiV2fmFzJO&_nc_ohc=ssKs8rTLOOsAX9_9iwL&_nc_ht=scontent.frba3-2.fna&oh=c34f8e46326b45c17ec8e61f413eae95&oe=6058A280

RagingBull
02-23-2021, 06:01 PM
And again

https://scontent.frba3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/152491205_1863318390493986_2297447440675300987_o.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeEbP3qy24SvKgsJoLHHecOKErVYTaLkOfkStVhNo uQ5-ay_Rc9Fu43iahMAE9Ut8snkMolVUj7kBXRLweAu3Tgp&_nc_ohc=go9-nuvjRqkAX8gjm2d&_nc_ht=scontent.frba3-2.fna&oh=72d789d9744e969f135c37f5545bf73a&oe=605A3366

https://scontent.frba3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/153183783_1863318517160640_5972317796698880352_o.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_eui2=AeH8MTYqUyRukh3D6Rk8GeMNLcCX3IPxxostwJfcg _HGi2odThdNmWNmu8Eza_er6YMWoX2OCFI5KaTiV2fmFzJO&_nc_ohc=ssKs8rTLOOsAX9_9iwL&_nc_ht=scontent.frba3-2.fna&oh=c34f8e46326b45c17ec8e61f413eae95&oe=6058A280

All these studies are old. The current scientific consensus is that E-M81 carriers are either of Phoenician or Arab origin:
https://i.ibb.co/PN1qjYK/Sol-Morata-et-al-2017.png (https://ibb.co/CzVR8tg)
https://i.ibb.co/FnYx3W9/Penninx-2019.png (https://ibb.co/nR1gm0T)

capsian
02-23-2021, 07:07 PM
All these studies are old. The current scientific consensus is that E-M81 carriers are either of Phoenician or Arab origin:
https://i.ibb.co/PN1qjYK/Sol-Morata-et-al-2017.png (https://ibb.co/CzVR8tg)
https://i.ibb.co/FnYx3W9/Penninx-2019.png (https://ibb.co/nR1gm0T)

lol Your novel is ridiculous, do not mess with science you are the grandson of Moroccan soldiers or merchants who went to the Middle East. The debate is over
Who are you to change the facts

leorcooper19
02-23-2021, 07:57 PM
All these studies are old. The current scientific consensus is that E-M81 carriers are either of Phoenician or Arab origin:
https://i.ibb.co/PN1qjYK/Sol-Morata-et-al-2017.png (https://ibb.co/CzVR8tg)

You are just dunking on yourself now. The highlighted segment here literally begins with "a previous study suggested" while just by the end of the very same paragraph the authors come to the conclusion that all the evidence "suggests a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa."

RagingBull
02-23-2021, 08:14 PM
You are just dunking on yourself now. The highlighted segment here literally begins with "a previous study suggested" while just by the end of the very same paragraph the authors come to the conclusion that all the evidence "suggests a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa."

You forgot the last part: Regarding E-M183 as mentioned above, we cannot discard an expansion from the Near East, and if so, according to our time estimates, it could have been brought by the Islamic expansion on the 7th century, but definitely not the Neolithic expansion, which appeared in NW Africa -7400 BP and may have featured a strong Epipaleolithic persistence. Moreover, such a recent appearance of E-M183 in NW Africa would fit with the pattern observed in the rest of the genome, where an extensive male-biased Near Eastern admixture event is registered -1300 ya, coincidental with the Arab expansion.

RagingBull
02-23-2021, 08:27 PM
This theory was actually confirmed by Olalde et al. 2019. The Andalusian with the most Levantine ancestry carry E-M183, this haplogroup is in fact the only male lineage that appeared after the Arabo-Islamic conquest of Iberia .

https://i.ibb.co/MNK9n2w/Andalusian-Y-DNA.png (https://ibb.co/vzfD1wy)

Edit: Although it is more likely that there were several of E-M81 carriers, a first wave linked to Phoenicians and a later one linked to Arabs.

Squad
02-23-2021, 08:29 PM
There are 2 samples new under haplgroup E-Z21068 From Egypt and algeria and sample from study Boattini et al. 2013
most likelyunder E-Z21068* or E-P2431*

I know about all L19 clusters, in fact I'm the one who first noted the existence of the egyptian" cluster and from the Y-STRs I knew it had a basal position on the tree.

However, the kenyan L19 is something else. It's Y-STR values are highly divergent and I'm pretty much sure it would push back the TMRCA of the whole clade. I however have to remember the DYS448 value because I don't remember if I had it classified under PF2431 or not. DYS448 = 22 most likely means PF2431 when the sample is L19+

Imesmouden
02-23-2021, 09:01 PM
This theory was actually confirmed by Olalde et al. 2019. The Andalusian with the most Levantine ancestry carry E-M183, this haplogroup is in fact the only male lineage that appeared after the Arabo-Islamic conquest of Iberia .

https://i.ibb.co/MNK9n2w/Andalusian-Y-DNA.png (https://ibb.co/vzfD1wy)

Edit: Although it is more likely that there were several of E-M81 carriers, a first wave linked to Phoenicians and a later one linked to Arabs.


"Levantine Ancestry"

https://i.imgur.com/jrPpZOM.png

https://i.imgur.com/Rj7ryck.png

also what do you mean with "this haplogroup is in fact the only male lineage that appeared after the Arabo-Islamic conquest of Iberia"

isn't the E-Z5009 guanche remain is pre islamic in the region?

RagingBull
02-23-2021, 09:49 PM
"Levantine Ancestry"

also what do you mean with "this haplogroup is in fact the only male lineage that appeared after the Arabo-Islamic conquest of Iberia"

isn't the E-Z5009 guanche remain is pre islamic in the region?

E-M183 individuals have the most Levantine ancestry out of all Andalusians, J2 was found among Empuries Greeks so it predates the presence of the Phoenicians. Are you seriously implying that Jews were responsible for the spread of E-M183 and Levantine ancestry to Iberia btw? They don't carry E-M183, and Yemeni Jews aside, they have less Natufian than even the most SSA-shifted North Africans.

As for Guanches, they postdate the Islamic expansion into Africa and most of them aren't E-M183. They don't cluster with Berbers either, they have more Steppe, more ENF, less Natufian and less SSA. They were probably IE and spoke a language related to Celtiberian.

RagingBull
02-23-2021, 10:10 PM
A principal component analysis (PCA) of the five samples with the highest autosomal genome coverage, performed using genome-wide autosomal SNPs overlapping with Human Origins (HO) data [19, 20], reveals close affinity to modern Northwest African populations such as Tunisians and Algerians, but with a tendency (especially for individuals from Gran Canaria) to occupy a space outside modern Northwest African variation, closer to Europeans (Figures 2 and S2). However, outgroup f3 statistics [19] suggest that the Guanches share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with African test populations, including Northwest African populations of Berber origin (Data S1, sheet 2)....

This issue seems to extend to other statistics based on allele frequency correlations such as the D statistic [19] since D(Outgroup, Guanches; North African, Sardinian/Anatolian farmer) consistently produces highly significant positive values of D (Z > 4), which would imply a closer relationship between Guanches and Sardinians and Anatolian farmers than between Guanches and North African populations (Data S1, sheet 3).
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)31257-5

Squad
02-23-2021, 11:04 PM
This theory was actually confirmed by Olalde et al. 2019. The Andalusian with the most Levantine ancestry carry E-M183, this haplogroup is in fact the only male lineage that appeared after the Arabo-Islamic conquest of Iberia .

https://i.ibb.co/MNK9n2w/Andalusian-Y-DNA.png (https://ibb.co/vzfD1wy)

Edit: Although it is more likely that there were several of E-M81 carriers, a first wave linked to Phoenicians and a later one linked to Arabs.

Don't kill me hahahahahahaha. U a funny dude still

Cabaon
02-23-2021, 11:39 PM
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)31257-5


They do cluster with modern north africans, the ones who received the deepest coverage (gun008,011) cluster with modern north moroccans. Here my results compared to them :


https://i.imgur.com/g04AwUz.png

also :


The MMD analysis indicates that the Canary Island sample is most similar to the four samples from Northwest Africa: the Shawia Berbers, Kabyle Berbers, Bedouin Arabs and Carthaginians, less similar to the three Egyptian samples and least like the three Nubian samples.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018442X04700153


P values associated to FST calculations for the Punta Azul cave STR data (n ¼ 28) and modern populations from North Africa (n ¼ 75) and the Iberian Peninsula (n ¼ 335) (Table 3), indicates that the aboriginal population is not significantly different from Moroccan Berbers (p ¼ 0.676), but it is to the Iberian samples (p ¼ 0.036). Finally, autosomal diversity for the Punta Azul cave (66.40 ± 7.60) is smaller than that in the Iberian Peninsula (78.65 ± 1.10), but similar to Moroccan Berbers (68.42 ± 3.91).



Regarding the origin of El Hierro aboriginal population, Slatkin-linearized Fst distances based on autosomal STR are congruent with a great similarity of the Bimbapes with Berbers from Morocco, and a significant differentiation from Europe. This result is in accordance to previous archaeological, linguistic and genetic evidence about the Berber origin of aboriginal people. One of the most outstanding archaeological remains from El Hierro consists of a series of lybicberber inscriptions, clearly related with the ancient North African Berber's inscriptions

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440316301686



Culture :


According to the archaeological data, the ancient colonization of the Canary Islands was initiated at the beginnings of the 1st millennium BC, by Imazighen populations. This colonization propitiated the introduction in the Canarian Archipielago of the Lybico-Berber inscriptions, among other cultural elements from the North African Amazigh world. In the following pages we analyze the ancient colonization of the Canary Islands in light of the study of Libyco–Berber inscriptions, Latino Canarian scripts, and indigenous material culture.

https://journals.openedition.org/corpus/2641

"The ancient Libyco-Berber inscriptions of Canary Islands" ---> https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-ancient-Libyco-Berber-inscriptions-of-Canary-%E2%80%93-Melka/fd69ff747f967123aeae95a4ed3862d791d82820

capsian
02-24-2021, 12:01 PM
They do cluster with modern north africans, the ones who received the deepest coverage (gun008,011) cluster with modern north moroccans. Here my results compared to them :


https://i.imgur.com/g04AwUz.png

also :



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018442X04700153






https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440316301686



Culture :



https://journals.openedition.org/corpus/2641

"The ancient Libyco-Berber inscriptions of Canary Islands" ---> https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-ancient-Libyco-Berber-inscriptions-of-Canary-%E2%80%93-Melka/fd69ff747f967123aeae95a4ed3862d791d82820

sample GUN012 it s close to prople souss

Imesmouden
02-24-2021, 01:27 PM
E-M183 individuals have the most Levantine ancestry out of all Andalusians, J2 was found among Empuries Greeks so it predates the presence of the Phoenicians. Are you seriously implying that Jews were responsible for the spread of E-M183 and Levantine ancestry to Iberia btw? They don't carry E-M183, and Yemeni Jews aside, they have less Natufian than even the most SSA-shifted North Africans.

As for Guanches, they postdate the Islamic expansion into Africa and most of them aren't E-M183. They don't cluster with Berbers either, they have more Steppe, more ENF, less Natufian and less SSA. They were probably IE and spoke a language related to Celtiberian.

Well first of all where did you came up with E-M183 individuals have the most Levantine ancestry out of all Andalusians lol?

https://i.imgur.com/Hkvm5xx.png

it's only one out of 3 samples who carry levantine related ancestry in the graph and less than most of the other samples , and the study already stated that this levantine related is more likely reflect ancestry from jewish groups

https://i.imgur.com/jrPpZOM.png



G25 of one of the e-m183 samples

https://i.imgur.com/955ocDQ.png

RagingBull
02-26-2021, 06:46 AM
You're not really helping your case, his closest populations are Andalusians followed by Phoenicians.

https://i.ibb.co/jJdXk9R/Capture.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

RagingBull
02-26-2021, 06:55 AM
The sixth closest individual to I12644 is SI-41, an half Spanish half Bedouin according to Haber 2019 et al.

https://i.ibb.co/C5cXWFG/Capture.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)


In addition to the three Europeans and four Near Easterners found in the burial, there were two individuals (SI-41 and SI-53) who we could not associate with any specific group. We consequently wanted to explore the possibility that these individuals’ particular pattern on the PCA might be due to their genomes being admixed. Therefore, we first ran an ADMXITURE24 analysis (Figure 3A) which confirmed the presence of three genetically different groups in the Crusaders' pit with SI-41 and SI-53 having intermediate ancestry compositions compared with the other ancient individuals. Next, we simulated hybrid diploid genomes by selecting pairs of individuals, one from the Near East and the second from Europe and we picked a random allele from each individual. We then projected the simulated hybrid genomes onto the PCA plot, looking for hybrid combinations that overlapped with individuals SI-41 and SI-53. We found that a mixture between a medieval Lebanese and a Croatian or a medieval Lebanese and a Hungarian could reproduce the PCA position of SI-53, while a mixture between a Saudi and a Norwegian, or a Bedouin and a Northern Spanish, could reproduce the position of SI-41 (Figure 3B). We assessed these results with formal tests using qpAdm25 and setting the source populations for SI-41 and SI-53 as pairs of populations selected from two groups from the HO set: (1) Medieval Lebanese, Lebanese Christian, Syrian, Palestinian, Assyrian, Iraqi Jew, Turkish Jew, Ashkenazi Jew, Saudi, and Bedouin and (2) French, Italian, Spanish, Basque, English, Norwegian, German, Croatian, Hungarian, Romanian, and Ashkenazi Jew. Then we selected a set of outgroups that are related differently to the source populations: Ust’-Ishim, Kostenki 14, MA1, Onge, Papuans, Chukchi, Karitiana, Eastern hunter-gatherers (EHG), WHG, Natufians, Caucasus hunter-gatherers, Neolithic Iranians, Neolithic Anatolians, and Neolithic Levantines. We found that both SI-41 and SI-53 can be modeled as mixtures of European and Near Eastern ancestries. For individual SI-41, the best-supported model is a descent from a Near Easterner related to a Bedouin or a Saudi and a European related to Northern Spanish or Basques (Figure 3C, Table S3).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929719301119

The geographical origin of this Bedouin is obvious. His great-grandfather still inhabit the Negev after all :)

Imesmouden
02-26-2021, 07:45 AM
The sixth closest individual to I12644 is SI-41, an half Spanish half Bedouin according to Haber 2019 et al.

https://i.ibb.co/C5cXWFG/Capture.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)



The geographical origin of this Bedouin is obvious. His great-grandfather still inhabit the Negev after all :)

Lmao are you trying yo say that I12644 is close to SI-41 because he is half bedouin?

Meanwhile I12644 and SI-41 both have strong european admixture and I2644 dont have any bedouin admixture

RagingBull
02-26-2021, 03:11 PM
Lmao are you trying yo say that I12644 is close to SI-41 because he is half bedouin?

Meanwhile I12644 and SI-41 both have strong european admixture and I2644 dont have any bedouin admixture
Yes. Only SSA-admixed Andalusians cluster with Berbers, the others appear to be more or less half-way between Middle Easterners and Europeans.

https://i.ibb.co/L529dqx/Andalus.png (https://ibb.co/X8vFxd7)

Imesmouden
02-26-2021, 04:00 PM
Yes. Only SSA-admixed Andalusians cluster with Berbers, the others appear to be more or less half-way between Middle Easterners and Europeans.

https://i.ibb.co/L529dqx/Andalus.png (https://ibb.co/X8vFxd7)

That's normal since the samples carry mostly eurasian genes

the study clearly stated that the gene flow was from north africa , they didn't mention anything about the samples being originally levantine

https://i.imgur.com/B0bT0IC.png

https://i.imgur.com/fwSGEpJ.png

sami15
02-26-2021, 04:41 PM
They do cluster with modern north africans, the ones who received the deepest coverage (gun008,011) cluster with modern north moroccans. Here my results compared to them :


https://i.imgur.com/g04AwUz.png

also :



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018442X04700153






https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440316301686



Culture :



https://journals.openedition.org/corpus/2641

"The ancient Libyco-Berber inscriptions of Canary Islands" ---> https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-ancient-Libyco-Berber-inscriptions-of-Canary-%E2%80%93-Melka/fd69ff747f967123aeae95a4ed3862d791d82820

You're Like me, I'm also north Moroccan (Riffian), I'm super close to Guanche11

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39161&d=1598372048

This is my G25 with Guanches ... I'm so Close with them

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43555&d=1614357886

Adules
02-26-2021, 10:01 PM
All that and you still can't show the Exodus happened or that a man can fit two of every animal in an ark during a global flood.

capsian
02-26-2021, 11:23 PM
You're Like me, I'm also north Moroccan (Riffian), I'm super close to Guanche11

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39161&d=1598372048

This is my G25 with Guanches ... I'm so Close with them

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43555&d=1614357886

i m very close to samople Guanch012
this my result
Target: capsaincaled
Distance: 1.3653% / 0.01365292
38.4 Early_European_Farmer
37.8 Iberomaurusian
10.8 Early_Levantine_Farmer
4.8 Basal_Central/West_African
3.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
3.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
1.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

sample Gun012
Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun012
Distance: 2.6138% / 0.02613833
40.0 Iberomaurusian
38.6 Early_European_Farmer
9.2 Early_Levantine_Farmer
7.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
4.0 Basal_Central/West_African
0.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Aizkora
02-26-2021, 11:32 PM
i m very close to samople Guanch012
this my result
Target: capsaincaled
Distance: 1.3653% / 0.01365292
38.4 Early_European_Farmer
37.8 Iberomaurusian
10.8 Early_Levantine_Farmer
4.8 Basal_Central/West_African
3.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
3.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
1.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

sample Gun012
Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun012
Distance: 2.6138% / 0.02613833
40.0 Iberomaurusian
38.6 Early_European_Farmer
9.2 Early_Levantine_Farmer
7.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
4.0 Basal_Central/West_African
0.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Sorry guys, I've been living under a rock for quite some time but what program are you using to make these tables?

Moderator
02-26-2021, 11:42 PM
This thread has been temporarily closed while we clean up some highly inappropriate, off-topic comments. Please stay relatively on-topic and refrain from one-on-one arguments, comments on religion and accusations of sociopolitical bias.

Edit: the thread has now be re-opened, but it is being monitored. If it is derailed again, it will be closed permanently.

leorcooper19
02-27-2021, 12:23 AM
Sorry guys, I've been living under a rock for quite some time but what program are you using to make these tables?

This is done using https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/ with G25 coordinates available here: https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html

sami15
02-27-2021, 10:45 AM
i m very close to samople Guanch012
this my result
Target: capsaincaled
Distance: 1.3653% / 0.01365292
38.4 Early_European_Farmer
37.8 Iberomaurusian
10.8 Early_Levantine_Farmer
4.8 Basal_Central/West_African
3.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
3.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
1.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

sample Gun012
Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun012
Distance: 2.6138% / 0.02613833
40.0 Iberomaurusian
38.6 Early_European_Farmer
9.2 Early_Levantine_Farmer
7.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
4.0 Basal_Central/West_African
0.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

You Should Using G25 coordinates & vahaduo Program, then screenshot Your results and Send it Here

capsian
02-27-2021, 11:01 AM
You Should Using G25 coordinates & vahaduo Program, then screenshot Your results and Send it Here

43579

sami15
02-27-2021, 11:09 AM
43579

Use these G25 Coordinates, it's more accurate and then Show me your Results by Screenshot


===> 43580

Imesmouden
02-27-2021, 11:13 AM
You're Like me, I'm also north Moroccan (Riffian), I'm super close to Guanche11

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39161&d=1598372048

This is my G25 with Guanches ... I'm so Close with them

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43555&d=1614357886

Are you fully riffian?
it's the first time i see a riffian with 37% IBM

sami15
02-27-2021, 11:18 AM
Are you fully riffian?
it's the first time i see a riffian with 37% IBM

Yeah sure! I'm Riffian
there is also Riffians with 38% of IBM, others have around 31% to 35%, it depends from each individuals ...
all were already demonstrated by G25 Coordinates of North Moroccans at Eurogenes.blogspot.com

capsian
02-27-2021, 11:18 AM
Use these G25 Coordinates, it's more accurate and then Show me your Results by Screenshot


===> 43580

ok
43581

sami15
02-27-2021, 11:27 AM
ok
43581

Interesting!
from where u r ?

capsian
02-27-2021, 11:27 AM
Interesting!
from where u r ?

i m from anti-atlas

sami15
02-27-2021, 11:30 AM
i m from anti-atlas

where in anti-atlas?
what was the name of your tribe from both sides of your parents?

capsian
02-27-2021, 11:32 AM
where in anti-atlas?
what was the name of your tribe from both sides of your parents?


Ida-oultit Arsmouk

sami15
02-27-2021, 11:34 AM
Ida-oultit

it Sounds Senhadji Tribal-Surname.

what about the rest of your distances towards other Guanches?
can you show me the table of your G25 Results with them?

Imesmouden
02-27-2021, 11:37 AM
it Sounds Senhadji Tribal-Surname.

what about the rest of your distances towards other Guanches?
can you show me the table of your G25 Results with them?

Ida oultit is a jazoula tribe not sanhaja

Imesmouden
02-27-2021, 11:37 AM
Yeah sure! I'm Riffian
there is also Riffians with 38% of IBM, others have around 31% to 35%, it depends from each individuals ...
all were already demonstrated by G25 Coordinates of North Moroccans at Eurogenes.blogspot.com

Interesting

can you post your result of this model

G25modern-scaled-averages

capsian
02-27-2021, 11:41 AM
it Sounds Senhadji Tribal-Surname.

what about the rest of your distances towards other Guanches?
can you show me the table of your G25 Results with them?

idaoulit are jazoula not Senhadji
43582

sami15
02-27-2021, 11:51 AM
idaoulit are jazoula not Senhadji
43582

Well, According to South Moroccan Oral Tradition, Every tribe with IDA Nickname is in Fact of Senhadji origins, whatsoever what these tribes wants to be. But You seem much distant towards Guanches, Unlike me.
I'm Even Closer to Chalcolithic North Africans than you.

Interesting!

These are my Distances:

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43583&d=1614426659

capsian
02-27-2021, 12:16 PM
Well, According to South Moroccan Oral Tradition, Every tribe with IDA Nickname is in Fact of Senhadji origins, whatsoever what these tribes wants to be. But You seem much distant towards Guanches, Unlike me.
I'm Even Closer to Chalcolithic North Africans than you.

Interesting!

These are my Distances:

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43583&d=1614426659
there is not much difference