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Johane Derite
04-20-2020, 12:57 PM
There wasn't a L283 dedicated thread. Here is an image:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVvJKdPWsAA7yMm?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Johane Derite
09-05-2020, 07:40 AM
Trojet's analysis of the oldest J2b-L283 in Europe so far:

"I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1

Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."

Trojet
09-05-2020, 01:36 PM
Trojet's analysis of the oldest J2b-L283 in Europe so far:

"I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1

Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."

Thanks for this dedicated J-L283 thread at Anthrogenica. I'll try to post important updates here as well.

I also checked the Novel SNPs of the two modern J-Z615* samples. I only got negative results, so this ancient sample remains at J-Z615* and lived around 1000 years after this mutation formed (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/).

The downstream branch, J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp), looks pretty western Balkan, so it likely moved further west around the time this Mokrin sample lived. We already have I4331, dated ~3600 ybp, from southern Croatia which was J-Z597>Z2507>Y15058. And recently a BigY tester with origin from Krk, Croatia, tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/) branch:
https://i.imgur.com/2hXqSDx.png

The expansion between J-L283 and Z615 looks less clear. We need older aDNA to understand this better, but my impression is it came via northern Black Sea route (per YFull estimates sometime between 6000 ybp and 4500 ybp), considering the ancient J-L283* from north Caucasus, and the modern Armenian J-L283*.

Archetype0ne
09-12-2020, 02:10 AM
There wasn't a L283 dedicated thread. Here is an image:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVvJKdPWsAA7yMm?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Thanks for starting the dedicated thread Johane. In case you made the graphic could you add the Basarab/Draculesti dynasties to the graphic?

Thanks in advance.

Polska
10-21-2020, 07:50 PM
Question: When is this paper on the Ezero Culture and surrounding area going to be released? I’m wondering if there might be some ancient L283 samples that come to light? My understanding is that the samples are still being analyzed by the Reich Lab at Harvard. I have read that nothing will be published until 2021, but I’ve also seen some comments online indicating something might come out this year.

There are these basal ancient samples from Karbino Balkaria and Armenia, the rest of the ancient samples are in Europe with the Z600 and YP91 L283 in Sardinia, the Y15058 in Croatia/Dalmatian Highlands, and now the oldest yet, Z615 from the Mokrin location, about 4000 years old. This Z615 is upstream from Z597, which proliferated in the Balkans and branched out from there. So it makes it seem like L283 came from a location further north than Balkans, but how did it get there from Caucasus? North of Black Sea route makes most sense to me, but still waiting on ancient samples from north of Black Sea or near vicinity (in vc of western steppe?) to bolster this hypothetical migratory route.

eastara
10-28-2020, 04:12 AM
Question: When is this paper on the Ezero Culture and surrounding area going to be released? I’m wondering if there might be some ancient L283 samples that come to light? My understanding is that the samples are still being analyzed by the Reich Lab at Harvard. I have read that nothing will be published until 2021, but I’ve also seen some comments online indicating something might come out this year.



In fact there is already one published Ezero sample in the study The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe"". This is Bul10, Bulgaria_Ezero_EBA 3090-2924 calBCE (4396±20 BP, MAMS 26835), unfortuinately afemale. It shows normal admixture like other Balkan Early Bronze age sample with less Yamnaya, than Bul4 Yamnaya_Bulgaria from around the same age 3012-2900 cal BCE (4333±20 BP, MAMS-26834). The Early Bronze age North of the Balkan mountains was influenced directly from Yamnaya and the steppes, while South is in the area of the Aegean culture.
No doubt Reich's lab has more unpublished samples from that study, the new ones from the contemplated Big Study from Bulgaria has not been even sent yet. Many people think that there is some hurdle from the Bulgarian side and this study may not go ahead. Meanwhile old bones are sent to European labs.

Polska
10-30-2020, 08:14 PM
Interesting. Thanks for info, Eastara.

xripkan
12-01-2020, 12:25 AM
Would it be right to suggest that J-L283 was expanded in Western Balkans during Early Bronze Age? Was it a common haplogroup among ancient Illyrians and Pannonians?

Trojet
12-01-2020, 08:08 PM
A person from West Hungary is tested J-L283+ and S23613- through YSEQ. This is a J-Z622 SNP so he is ~J-L283*, and at 15/37 very distant with the Armenian on YFull. He has a WGS on order, so we should see him on YFull at some point.

Btw, ORC007 is not J-L283* as he has one positive read for Z622. To me ORC007 cannot be placed confidently below Z622 due to low coverage, although I think odds are he is J-Z600>YP157 like the other ancient Sardinians which are from the same site and timeframe.

Maximus
12-10-2020, 07:40 PM
Hi! Is there any new information on the spread of J-Y21878 in the Balkans and Albania?

ShpataEMadhe
02-06-2021, 03:15 PM
Hi! Is there any new information on the spread of J-Y21878 in the Balkans and Albania?

http://rrenjet.com/j-y21878/

Since L283 was already in 1600BC Croatia - would have moved down to Albania from there but not too much adna research has been done in balkans - likely to find some ancient L283 in southern balkans too

Polska
03-03-2021, 12:41 AM
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/greek-illyrian-helmet-0014638

This is located in Dalmatia just down the road from the ancient L283 Z38240 Illyrian (I4331).

Maybe we’ll get some more ancient Illyrian/west Balkan L283 to add to the YTree.

Huban
03-04-2021, 06:29 PM
An interesting new clade appears in the Balkans. Serb originating in a village to the North of Novi Pazar has been SNP tested as Y32373+. Due to dys448=18, 481=24 etc it seems various Serb families from Bosnia are related to him. They probably migrated from the Rashka/Sandzak region. Most likely they are locals in the area since the Antiquity as there are no closer relatives in Albania than MBA. Bosniak Sandzak Hoti J-FT125046 is nearby but they are more recent migrants from the South obviously.

Trojet
03-04-2021, 06:44 PM
An interesting new clade appears in the Balkans. Serb originating in a village to the North of Novi Pazar has been SNP tested as Y32373+. Due to dys448=18, 481=24 etc it seems various Serb families from Bosnia are related to him. They probably migrated from the Rashka/Sandzak region. Most likely they are locals in the area since the Antiquity as there are no closer relatives in Albania than MBA. Bosniak Sandzak Hoti J-FT125046 is nearby but they are more recent migrants from the South obviously.

I noticed this on the Serbian project coupe of weeks ago too. That is indeed an interesting development. This would mean all three known J-Y21878 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y21878/) (TMRCA ~3800 ybp) subclades have now been confirmed in the western Balkans:


J-FT29003 in Mat/Dibėr, Albania
J-Y32373 in Sanxhak + Bosnia
J-CTS11100>Y166564 in Slovenia + Northern Albania (the Albanian Hoti clan stems from here as you mentioned)

Bruzmi
04-08-2021, 11:56 AM
An interesting new clade appears in the Balkans. Serb originating in a village to the North of Novi Pazar has been SNP tested as Y32373+. Due to dys448=18, 481=24 etc it seems various Serb families from Bosnia are related to him. They probably migrated from the Rashka/Sandzak region. Most likely they are locals in the area since the Antiquity as there are no closer relatives in Albania than MBA. Bosniak Sandzak Hoti J-FT125046 is nearby but they are more recent migrants from the South obviously.

The village to the north of Novi Pazar is Vranovina (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vranovina_(Novi_Pazar)). It is first attested in 1316 as a toponym, but the modern village was settled in the 18th century. This particular Serb Orthodox family and many other families from this village come from the territory of modern Montenegro.

Huban
04-08-2021, 01:14 PM
The village to the north of Novi Pazar is Vranovina (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vranovina_(Novi_Pazar)). It is first attested in 1316 as a toponym, but the modern village was settled in the 18th century. This particular Serb Orthodox family and many other families from this village come from the territory of modern Montenegro.

This family like a million of others have a tradition of being Kuči descended. In nearby villages for ex. there are two I-PH908 families that are "descended" of Kuči as well. No reason to pick on these without taking all these non Paleo-Balkan hg's as legitimate "Kuči" descendants (who are all basically E-BY165837).

Ofc many or most these Kuči traditions were made up in 18th and 19th centuries by the Orthodox priests as Kuči were at the time mostly independent so they represented "Piedmont of Serbdom" for many. Similar goes for many "Montenegro", "Vasojevići" etc traditions. Taken at face value it would have meant half of the Serbian population was at the time concentrated in those areas and historical sources paint a totally different picture. More reliable traditions are those that involve more recent arrivals, and also that mention some not too distant villages as migratory points.

Vranovina was settled in the early 17th century (and before) as attested by the Ottoman defters, so this 19th century folk fairy tale about it being settled since 18th century doesn't hold water.

Bruzmi
04-08-2021, 02:52 PM
This family like a million of others have a tradition of being Kuči descended. In nearby villages for ex. there are two I-PH908 families that are "descended" of Kuči as well. No reason to pick on these without taking all these non Paleo-Balkan hg's as legitimate "Kuči" descendants (who are all basically E-BY165837).

Ofc many or most these Kuči traditions were made up in 18th and 19th centuries by the Orthodox priests as Kuči were at the time mostly independent so they represented "Piedmont of Serbdom" for many. Similar goes for many "Montenegro", "Vasojevići" etc traditions. Taken at face value it would have meant half of the Serbian population was at the time concentrated in those areas and historical sources paint a totally different picture. More reliable traditions are those that involve more recent arrivals, and also that mention some not too distant villages as migratory points.

Vranovina was settled in the early 17th century (and before) as attested by the Ottoman defters, so this 19th century folk fairy tale about it being settled since 18th century doesn't hold water.

These families settled there in the 18th century as most families in Vranovina and the nearby villages. Some came even later. Kuci, Vasojevici etc. are used many times in their stories in the sense of a broad geographical region, not in the form of an actual lineage. In the same village, there are families which claim a link to the area of Vasojevici or Gashi, but it's very easy to identify the meaning in the use of the terms once you examine whether they are used in relation to a specific brotherhood or as a broad geographical reference. Their geographical origin is not a folk tale, all of these families know that 300 years ago they didn't live in Sandzak (https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/12/30/poreklo-prezimena-selo-vranovina-novi-pazar/). This particular family knows that a)they ultimately come from Montenegro b)before settling in Vranovina they had first settled in Sandzak in Đalovići (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%90alovi%C4%87i) or Rogozna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogozna).

They didn't settle in Sandzak in the 17th century and it's obviously not correct to claim that
Most likely they are locals in the area since the Antiquity as there are no closer relatives in Albania than MBA.

Huban
04-08-2021, 04:02 PM
These families settled there in the 18th century as most families in Vranovina and the nearby villages. Some came even later. Kuci, Vasojevici etc. are used many times in their stories in the sense of a broad geographical region, not in the form of an actual lineage. In the same village, there are families which claim a link to the area of Vasojevici or Gashi, but it's very easy to identify the meaning in the use of the terms once you examine whether they are used in relation to a specific brotherhood or as a broad geographical reference. Their geographical origin is not a folk tale, all of these families know that 300 years ago they didn't live in Sandzak (https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/12/30/poreklo-prezimena-selo-vranovina-novi-pazar/). This particular family knows that a)they ultimately come from Montenegro b)before settling in Vranovina they had first settled in Sandzak in Đalovići (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%90alovi%C4%87i) or Rogozna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogozna).

They didn't settle in Sandzak in the 17th century and it's obviously not correct to claim that

Well in a study of Montenegro of 404, there are no such haplotypes. And also they seem to have some relatives in Bosnia. I didn't study their traditions, but they are also indicative. I do believe those recent 19th century and later traditions are mostly true. Nevertheless in this instance it would mean that no natives (of 17th century and earlier) of Vranovina exist anymore there which is possible too. As this place was settled in 15th, 16th, 17th century one has to look with scrutiny all families there and consider the evidence. The region did experience emigration in the time of Čarnojević so many places got emptied.

I haven't studied these, so I guess my statement was a bit too extreme, still I'd leave a possibility of them being native there. One has to study those Bosnian families too and see from where they might have migrated. Because migrations from Sandzak to Bosnia seem to have been alot more common than migrations from deep within Montenegro.

vettor
04-08-2021, 04:56 PM
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/greek-illyrian-helmet-0014638

This is located in Dalmatia just down the road from the ancient L283 Z38240 Illyrian (I4331).

Maybe we’ll get some more ancient Illyrian/west Balkan L283 to add to the YTree.

That type of helmet was not made in Illyria/dalmatia .........all helmets at the time are corinthian made or thracian made .............it was used as per link with etruscans and scythians

the helmet your refer to is Corinthian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_type_helmet

a different version was created in dalmatia later on .............but this does not look like the one discovered


which leads to the DNA in question is also found in etruscan lands

https://i.postimg.cc/C1yPBHz9/L283.png (https://postimg.cc/wtVcnN5k)

slamberty
04-28-2021, 09:55 PM
Recently got my YFULL results. I ended up splitting lineage J-Y36202 by sharing SNP J-Y182183, forming a new subclade.

slamberty
04-28-2021, 09:56 PM
https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y182183/

Polska
06-04-2021, 07:39 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38241/

New kits under J-Z38241* from Var, France and another with an SRS prefix, which I assume is Turkey.

Polska
06-07-2021, 06:38 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

An Italian from Bari is now under Z38240. There is also another Italian who should be Z38240, but has not yet done a WGS test.

The ancient Croatian/Dalmatian from 1600 BC also belongs to Z38240.

alchemist223
07-18-2021, 06:44 PM
Interesting update, a new sample from West Virginia in the United States will now split the Z600 level, being positive for three out of four SNPs with the exception of Z2509/CTS3681. So, there will now be a new J-Z2509 level containing all other J2b-Z600+ samples, including ancient ones from Sardinia.

Nausevar
08-27-2021, 09:27 PM
I have this y-haplogroup. My father's line is from Croatia (Dalmatia) on the border with Bosnia.

Bruzmi
08-27-2021, 09:38 PM
I have this y-haplogroup. My father's line is from Croatia (Dalmatia) on the border with Bosnia.

Can you share some more information about the exact clade of J2b-L283 you belong to?

Nausevar
08-27-2021, 10:16 PM
Can you share some more information about the exact clade of J2b-L283 you belong to?
No, I only did a 23andme test. It just said I belonged to J-L283.

Trojet
08-27-2021, 10:21 PM
No, I only did a 23andme test. It just said I belonged to J-L283.

Hi, and welcome to the club :)

Yeah, unfortunately, 23andMe doesn't test for subclades. So if you want to economically find out what subclade you belong to, I would suggest the J2b-M12 Panel from YSEQ: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=45234

If you're willing to spend more, WGS400 is one of the best tests you can get: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=175886
You will also have the ability to upload your result to YFull.com and see the exact relationship to other high resolution samples.

It would be interesting to see. In the Dalmatian region, J-Z38240>PH1602 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/) is one of the more common subclades, although others can be found as well.