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TigerMW
04-25-2020, 01:46 AM
I've posted a series of articles for the R1b project members as background in preparation for this.
Those articles include topics like, PIE, Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Single Grave CW, Bell Beakers, P312 distribution, U106 distribution, Z2103 distribution, etc.

This graphic is intended as a visual to discuss L51 and its descendants. It's too busy as it is so I'm trying not to add more detail but I definitely want to correct errors. Feedback?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/r4ioj8kjxyi39gj/FB%20Ancient%20R1b-L51-route.pdf?dl=0

rms2
04-25-2020, 02:08 AM
It seems to me we are pretty close to knowing that R1b-L51 came into Europe west of the steppe via Corded Ware. The big issue now is where Corded Ware came from. If you read about Corded Ware, you'll see the experts don't agree on that.

Fortunately ancient dna has put paid to the idea that Corded ware was native to the North European Plain and developed from TRB. But we still don't know how exactly it came from the steppe.

TigerMW
04-25-2020, 12:36 PM
It seems to me we are pretty close to knowing that R1b-L51 came into Europe west of the steppe via Corded Ware. The big issue now is where Corded Ware came from. If you read about Corded Ware, you'll see the experts don't agree on that.

Fortunately ancient dna has put paid to the idea that Corded ware was native to the North European Plain and developed from TRB. But we still don't know how exactly it came from the steppe.

Agreed. My old mantra on the Bell Beakers was Bell Beakers are not Bell Beakers are not Bell Beakers.

We are seeing the same thing for the Corded Ware. Corded Ware is not Corded Ware is not Corded Ware. It's a broad archaeological horizon, not a tribe. It's not even a specific culture.

Likewise, the Yamnaya were not all alike and the fringes and adjacent areas may have had steppes herders too. There were probably few if any clear boundaries. The Proto-Indo-European base probably did not respect clear boundaries either.

I guess the other old adage still applies too. The pottery is not the people.

In the article I will post I will try to post some scholarly article links but will leave open the route route from L23 to P312 and U106 as an open question. It looks doubtful at this point that it accompanied Z2103 along the Danube? Not impossible but doubtful?

joanne
10-07-2020, 06:54 AM
I've been trying to figure out where R1b-L51 came from, too. L-51 seems to appear out of no-where in roughly the area of modern Germany. L-51 is high in South/Central France, Northern Italy, and South Poland. L-51 is absent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe. R1b-M269 > R1b-L23 > R1b-L51 so I went back to M269 and L23 to try to find the trail to L51. R1b makes up 28% of the Y DNA in Armenia. This is mostly L23 ( 15% ), a little M269 ( 5% ), and M73 ( 8% ). In Turkey, there is about 10% of L23 and what I found most interesting was there is 27% of L23 in the Upper Rhone Valley ( canton Valais in Switzerland ). There is 8% M269 in the central Balkans around Kosovo and 5% M269 in North Macedonia which gave me a clue to the route. I believe L23 and some M269 left Armenia to Turkey where there is 10% L23. Past Istanbul and into Greece and followed the Axios river into North Macedonia and the Ibar river to Belgrade and then the Sava river into Slovenia. Then follow the Po river in Northern Italy to Aosta, Italy. Take the Great St. Bernard Pass to Martigny in the canton of Valais, Switzerland. This is where there is 27% L23 in the Upper Rhone Valley. I believe the L51 > L11 > P312 and U106 formed in this Valley. The U106 went north to Germany and Scandinavia. The P312 divided into L21 and went northwest to Britain, to DF27 and went southwest to Iberian Peninsula Spain and Portugal, and to U152 and went south to Italy. What do you think of this path?

rms2
10-07-2020, 10:36 AM
Way too far west. L51 came from the steppe. There are informed leaks that papers are coming soon that show this in ancient samples, but we already have L51 in early Corded Ware and in Afanasievo out in Mongolia.

If L51 had formed in the Upper Rhone Valley, we should be seeing some of its precursors in Neolithic and Mesolithic Europe west of the steppe, but we don't.

Alain
10-07-2020, 06:29 PM
Agreed. My old mantra on the Bell Beakers was Bell Beakers are not Bell Beakers are not Bell Beakers.

We are seeing the same thing for the Corded Ware. Corded Ware is not Corded Ware is not Corded Ware. It's a broad archaeological horizon, not a tribe. It's not even a specific culture.

Likewise, the Yamnaya were not all alike and the fringes and adjacent areas may have had steppes herders too. There were probably few if any clear boundaries. The Proto-Indo-European base probably did not respect clear boundaries either.

I guess the other old adage still applies too. The pottery is not the people.

In the article I will post I will try to post some scholarly article links but will leave open the route route from L23 to P312 and U106 as an open question. It looks doubtful at this point that it accompanied Z2103 along the Danube? Not impossible but doubtful?

One sees CW definitely as a cultural horizon What is present for the Corded Ware culture, as the name suggests
characteristic vessel decoration in the grooved pattern running around with a cord in the
Clay can be pressed in (A-cup), and later also partly own
Have regional developments and influences in ceramics.
Other common features of this culture are the burial rite and the typical
"Battle ax" (ax), hence the outdated name battle ax culture, in
some regions (Eastern Europe) the corded ware are also more common arrow and
Arches included as grave goods.
Other important grave goods are daggers made of copper, flint (flint), pieces of jewelry,
In addition to cups and amphorae (A-amphora), vessel shapes also include cups or bowls.
Individual burial in a stool position is very characteristic of the Corded Ware culture
under burial mounds (tumulus / kurgan), the dead were with their legs drawn up on their side
buried lying down. Characteristic and formative for Corded Ware is one consistent
"Bipolar" burial mode
This means that opposite burials are common for men and women.
The dead of Central European Corded Ware are mostly in the east-west axis
the women on the left with their heads facing east, the men on the right with their heads facing
West, the so-called "line of sight", is south for both sexes.
In Eastern Europe, on the other hand, the dominant dead position of Corded Ware is the north-south axis
and the "line of sight" for both sexes to the east.
Here, too, it is customary that women always turn to the left and men always turn to the right
Are buried in the stool.


For me, these are based on a culture that is again divided into groups, for example the northern group with SGC or boat axe culture

joanne
10-08-2020, 08:44 AM
On Family TreeDNA Forum, Stevo started a topic Single Grave Corded Ware R1b-L51. He posted a Google spreadsheet showing the R1b found in corded ware so far. Sample MX304 from 2866 B.C. is from Auvernier, Switzerland and it is L52. Sample Aes25 from 2864 B.C.is from Aesch, Switzerland and it is L51 > L52 > L151. Paper coming soon!!

rms2
10-08-2020, 10:21 AM
On Family TreeDNA Forum, Stevo started a topic Single Grave Corded Ware R1b-L51. He posted a Google spreadsheet showing the R1b found in corded ware so far. Sample MX304 from 2866 B.C. is from Auvernier, Switzerland and it is L52. Sample Aes25 from 2864 B.C.is from Aesch, Switzerland and it is L51 > L52 > L151. Paper coming soon!!

That's me.

Those Swiss finds are early Corded Ware with plenty of steppe dna. No kind of R1b-M269, and no steppe dna, were found that far west before the third millennium BC. Both things arrived from the East, and they arrived in the same package.