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Varang
04-28-2020, 03:16 PM
Hi guys,

I collected the number of samples on BigY Tree on the major branches of L1029. (Minor samples are too small to show.)
Of course, the segregation of modern states is not a very good thing, since there were other states before, and there is always a choice where to put the ancestral line ([Poland or Lithuania or Belarus], [Poland or Germany], [Czech or Germany] [Austro-Hungary] etc. Also, multinational states do not clarify the picture (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc.) There are 4 indigenous peoples in Belarus (Belarusians, Lithuanians, Tatars, Ashekenazi. And local Poles). If you leave only Ukrainians with deep roots in Ukraine, then YP417 will be 2 times less.) Plus, different testability by country should be taken into account. In Serbia, for example, YP417 bolt but Serbs are little tested in FTDNA.
But here you can imagine the representation of branches in high geographical resolution.

It can be concluded that Poland is most represented by all branches, followed by Germany and the Czech Republic, then Russia, then Hungary, Ukraine, Sweden.

https://i.imgur.com/FFI5TvIh.jpg

Dibran
04-28-2020, 04:15 PM
Hi guys,

I collected the number of samples on BigY Tree on the major branches of L1029. (Minor samples are too small to show.)
Of course, the segregation of modern states is not a very good thing, since there were other states before, and there is always a choice where to put the ancestral line ([Poland or Lithuania or Belarus], [Poland or Germany], [Czech or Germany] [Austro-Hungary] etc. Also, multinational states do not clarify the picture (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc.) There are 4 indigenous peoples in Belarus (Belarusians, Lithuanians, Tatars, Ashekenazi. And local Poles). If you leave only Ukrainians with deep roots in Ukraine, then YP417 will be 2 times less.) Plus, different testability by country should be taken into account. In Serbia, for example, YP417 bolt but Serbs are little tested in FTDNA.
But here you can imagine the representation of branches in high geographical resolution.

It can be concluded that Poland is most represented by all branches, followed by Germany and the Czech Republic, then Russia, then Hungary, Ukraine, Sweden.

https://i.imgur.com/FFI5TvIh.jpg

You should include yseq/yfull/dante data as well if you have a way of getting access of course. With just FTDNA can be misleading. Maybe even Poreklo for their data Serbs and others in their project.

There's currently 4 bigy L1029 in Albania. Mine under L1029* (all my matches didn't do bigy), and 3 Albanians under YP263. I believe the bigy you have recorded is one of them.

I'm quite surprised about the 3 Irish L1029. Of course YP263 in their case. Maybe arrived with the Vikings in Ireland or possibly earlier as a minor lineage arriving with Saxons.

Though if L1029 is confirmed in LA Tene, finding it in Ireland will make sense.

Of course the first 2 scenarios are probably more likely in their case.

alexfritz
04-28-2020, 04:49 PM
sofar published ancient/old L1029+ incl.

2x warriors, piast pomerania (non-local)
1x mologa river (volga trib.) YP417+ ?old-russian phase ?new-christian phase
1x nobleman, lubart's castle prin.halych-volhynia
1x slav(?vendland), viking cem. fyn,DK

anyone knows if YP417+ VK160, as in link #94, was from the old-russian 11thc. or the new-christian 12thc. phase?

Varang
04-28-2020, 04:56 PM
Yep, you are right, Dibran, this tab doesn't include L1029*, minor branches and results predicted by our haplogroup project. We have many restrictions but L1029 is represented by 705 samples. So, it is quite good selection. And a different testability by countries is an additional restriction but I hope it suits for the calculation of ratio between branches and their representation. For example, Thirty Years' War claimed 2/3 of the population in Czechs but ratio bertween different branches can be seen as visual.

Varang
04-28-2020, 05:03 PM
You should include yseq/yfull/dante data as well if you have a way of getting access of course. With just FTDNA can be misleading. Maybe even Poreklo for their data Serbs and others in their project.

There's currently 4 bigy L1029 in Albania. Mine under L1029* (all my matches didn't do bigy), and 3 Albanians under YP263. I believe the bigy you have recorded is one of them.

I'm quite surprised about the 3 Irish L1029. Of course YP263 in their case. Maybe arrived with the Vikings in Ireland or possibly earlier as a minor lineage arriving with Saxons.

Though if L1029 is confirmed in LA Tene, finding it in Ireland will make sense.

Of course the first 2 scenarios are probably more likely in their case.

I attach 2 maps (1. autosomal ibd of MX265 and 2 Danube river). May be it could be interesting.
https://i.imgur.com/0QK1r40h.png
https://i.imgur.com/PJjGBGih.png

Dibran
04-28-2020, 06:55 PM
Yep, you are right, Dibran, this tab doesn't include L1029*, minor branches and results predicted by our haplogroup project. We have many restrictions but L1029 is represented by 705 samples. So, it is quite good selection. And a different testability by countries is an additional restriction but I hope it suits for the calculation of ratio between branches and their representation. For example, Thirty Years' War claimed 2/3 of the population in Czechs but ratio bertween different branches can be seen as visual.

Interesting. I do notice YP417 seems to be the overwhelming majority of Baltic, Eastern and to some extent South-Slavic L1029.

Whereas, West Slavs and others under L1029 seem to have an abundance of YP263 and other clades generally lacking in East and South Slavs.

A few of my Russian matches in L1029 are German, Adyghe and Tatar minorities. So I'm curious what clades are more represented in actual Russians and the minority republics.

For instance, YP263* has a Shapsug/Adyghe from Russia. One study even found M458 reaches up to 20% in the north and south Caucasus tribes of Circassians and Dargins. Including Nogai who have quite a bit of M458.

Also, another Russian under YP619 on yfull is actually a German minority. Surnamed Graf. His listed region was historically settled by Germans. All descending twigs in this branch seem to be mostly from Germany(from Hesse to Thuringia and Bayern) and England. Also a Finn, and a Swede with a German surname. Basal YP619 is also German. Though no region is listed.

Also, a Romanian from Buzau under R-Y44160* (a subclade of YP418) has a Bulgarian descending from Y44160 with the surname "Vlahov".

Perhaps the branch came from Romania to Bulgaria im the late medieval.

Varang
04-28-2020, 07:12 PM
Yes, you are right, we have some regions where YP417 is around 10%. It is Serbia, Bulgaria, NW Russia ... Balts - almost zero. Our Lithuanian samples are Slavic or Tatar, maybe 1-2 are Lithuanuans. Latvians - 0. But Baltic sea is present.
Caucasus - Chechens.
35% of YP1013 is Ashkenazi branch M12402 (1300 ybp by YFull).
YP418 and esp. YP1137 have many Tatars and Finns.
Every big subclade below YP417 have Balkanians. Nevetheless, they are underestimated in FTDNA.
I am an Admin of R1a-YP417 and Subclades Project. So, you could see the tabs yourself. Welcome:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a-YP417Subclades?iframe=yresults

Brent.B
04-28-2020, 07:20 PM
Hi guys,

I collected the number of samples on BigY Tree on the major branches of L1029. (Minor samples are too small to show.)
Of course, the segregation of modern states is not a very good thing, since there were other states before, and there is always a choice where to put the ancestral line ([Poland or Lithuania or Belarus], [Poland or Germany], [Czech or Germany] [Austro-Hungary] etc. Also, multinational states do not clarify the picture (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc.) There are 4 indigenous peoples in Belarus (Belarusians, Lithuanians, Tatars, Ashekenazi. And local Poles). If you leave only Ukrainians with deep roots in Ukraine, then YP417 will be 2 times less.) Plus, different testability by country should be taken into account. In Serbia, for example, YP417 bolt but Serbs are little tested in FTDNA.
But here you can imagine the representation of branches in high geographical resolution.

It can be concluded that Poland is most represented by all branches, followed by Germany and the Czech Republic, then Russia, then Hungary, Ukraine, Sweden.

https://i.imgur.com/FFI5TvIh.jpg

One of the YP4647 German kits is actually from England. He has unknown paternal ancestry and matched with a lot of Germans/STR matches from Germany so he put that. IIRC he is part of YP4648... making it a “English only” subclade.

The other German sample is indeed from Germany (from southwest Germany, Although I might be wrong... haven’t been able to confirm with the kit owner). He is part of YP4653. Meaning YP4653 is a German/English (yp4648 is downstream) branch so far.

EDIT: Also, as a side note, there is more than 3 YP4647 kits from England. I know of at least like 6-7... pretty sure they are all in the R1a1a and Subclades project too.

JoeyP37
04-28-2020, 07:24 PM
I am descended from YP619, and my male line is from Germany. I believe the YP619* from Hesse is named Bookhammer (anglicized from Buchheimer or some similar name), while mine is from right across the Rhine in the northern Palatinate.

Brent.B
04-28-2020, 08:30 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that, according to some on this Forum, the countries further east (Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia) are under sampled compared to more western countries (England, Germany, Poland, etc). By how much, I am not sure... I recall there being a few posts about that a few years ago. If I can find it I'll post it.

That might affect how to interpret these numbers.

EDIT: Here is a link to the discussion

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4967-The-origin-of-the-Slavs&p=127297#post127297

And here (post #403):

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4967-The-origin-of-the-Slavs/page41

Varang
04-28-2020, 09:17 PM
The Balkans are much more under sampled.
One important thing is constant. It is ratio between subclades in one population. It does not depend on how selection is undersampled.
The second important thing. This percentage can't much show us whether it was the significant migration or not. Migration <>continuum. If migration has big absolute numbers but continuum had much bigger numbers, so percentage of new migration gives a small percentage.
..And so on.
The main question is about Iron age, before Prague culture and expansion of Slavic languages. Because all big subclades below older subclades below L1029 are just Iron age. After that was Migration Period. And 9-11th centuries Slavic migrations from Middle Danube (Moravia) to East Slavs.

Varang
04-29-2020, 05:14 PM
L1029 + L260. I'd like to add I-Y3120 soon too.

https://i.imgur.com/s8QevC3h.jpg

Dibran
04-29-2020, 06:13 PM
L1029 + L260. I'd like to add I-Y3120 soon too.

https://i.imgur.com/s8QevC3h.jpg

We have L260 in the Albanian project as well. Though I don't think they tested on FTDNA.

Two L260>YP254 from in the south and 1 from Shkoder who was L260>YP1337.

You should add a section for basal L1029* that are undefined. May be nice way to show where the less common or yet to be defined branches are.

On one project a Italian from Lombardy was just marked as L1029* surname Serponte. Would be nice to include other basals.

Varang
04-30-2020, 08:27 AM
My initial task was the major lines only. It is not about homeland of every subclade but it is a visualisation that help us to see, that the Slavic expansion during the Migration Period in medieval times was a complex process. It is not the expansion from one point to different directions.
The Prague culture was a complex mixture of different cultures which were before it. It is the main thing as to me.

Also, as an Admin of R1a-YP417 I see the some correlation between R-YP417 and I-Y4460 but it is very important question why I-Y4460 is so bold ib South Russia but R-YP417 is bold in NW Russia. It is the old puzzle.

If you'll see this numbers for enough long time you'll see another correlations too.

Also, Croats have YP1137<L260, Serbs have YP417<L1029. Both are Western Balkans. Also, YP417 is bold in Bulgaria.

I think many answers will come later just from the Balkans. FTDNA don't have many samples. And to predict M458 subclades by STR markers is not simple thing, so we have many our samples on the level Z282 or higher.

https://i.imgur.com/NbBBlcoh.jpg

Varang
04-30-2020, 02:32 PM
The version 0.04 beta :) With Z92 and CTS1211. CTS1211 is more Western than Z92.

https://i.imgur.com/FjWWe8Lh.jpg

Varang
04-30-2020, 03:00 PM
Dibran,
If we are ready to admit such a picture that the Prague culture spread the Slavic language on the territory of former cultures, then it makes sense to assume that the M458 were among the first inhabitants of central Europe and spoke Celtic. Somewhere in the Iron Age, they connected to I-S20602. It has long been said that YP417 is ideally suited for Bastarns, since they entered Thrace before the Slavic expansion, and in the east they participated in the Slavic genesis.

I am writing without ambition. Just thoughts.

Here is the map where the original point of the Bastarns was. Someone else could be in union with them. Different tribes of the union may explain why the R-YP417 and I-Y4460 have a very similar map, but the latter are common in the south of Russia and the first in the north.

And all this was before the Great Migration, even before Prague.

https://i.imgur.com/odvL1Ogh.png

Varang
04-30-2020, 05:26 PM
Some statistics.

Ratio Z92/CTS1211 (average in the world 25,3%):
Belarus 61%
Russia 44%
Lithuania 42%
Ukraine 36%
Finland 35%
England 27%
Sweden 26 %
Bulgaria 21%
Poland 20%
Germany 14%

Ratio L1029/CTS1211 (average in the world 34%):
Romania 175%
Sweden 91%
Germany 90%
Denamrk 71%
Finland 65%
Bulgaria 64%
England 55%
Czechs 43%
Belarus 39%
Poland 35%
Hungary 35%
Slovakia 33%
Ukraine 30%
Russia 28%
Lithuania 28%

Ratio YP417/CTS1211 (average in the world: 6,35%)

Macedonia 66%
Bulgaria 50%
Romania 50%
Poland 36%
Russia 17%
Lithuania 17%
Belarus 16%
Ukraine 16%
Finland 14%
Denmark 14%
Serbia 8,3%
Bosina and Herz. 7,7%
Italy 5%
Sweden 4,3%
Slovakia 4,2%
Hungary 3,2%
Czechs 2,7%

Varang
05-01-2020, 09:25 AM
So, these ratios may show us the accents of a modern distribution:
Z92 - East Slavs, Lithuania and the Baltic Sea,
L1029 - Danube, the Balkans, Germany and the Baltic Sea,
YP417 in particular - the Balkans, Danube, Poland, East Slavs and the Baltic Sea.

NB! They are just significant accents of a modern distribution.It is not the Iron age or Middle Ages.
For example, subclades below YP417 have different distribution. YP1137 are mostly Russian, Tatarian and Finnish but in the same time there are some Bulgarians, Serb, Hungarian.
YP728 is more Western : Prussia , the Baltic Sea, the Balkans.
We could modulate many variants of possible migrations but we must remember that Prague culture is enough late culture (5th cent and further) . All our subclades are the Iron Age.

Varang
05-03-2020, 12:35 PM
It looks like some correlation. In the future it is possible to observe them when our selections get bigger.
YP593 and YP414
YP1703 and YP4135
YP417 and YP4460 (besides Russian Federation)


[Q/B]UOTE=Varang;662938]

https://i.imgur.com/FjWWe8Lh.jpg[/QUOTE]

palamede
05-10-2020, 08:36 AM
in the sheet titles, I suppose "L1260>Z254" is a mistake and it should be "L260>YP254".

Varang
05-11-2020, 10:45 PM
in the sheet titles, I suppose "L1260>Z254" is a mistake and it should be "L260>YP254".
Yes, it is a mistake. L260>YP254, of course. I fixed it in the newer release :) And I grouped countries in more geographical manner. For exemple, the Balkans.
I refreshed my historical views during last days.
And now I see the picture like this. Sclavins lived from Vistula to Dniester, Ants lived from Dniester to Dnieper. The first big migration was Ants to nether Danube 6th ventury. Sclavins went along Carpathians further to West.
The modern East Slavic areas were populated then in the different way as to haplogroups before the newer later Slavic back migrations. Penkovo culture was depopulated.
As to old Russian cronicles three tribes - White Croats, Serbs and Karatians (Horutane, ancestors of Slovenians) - were source of Drevliane, Poliane, Dregovichi and Krivichi.
Radimichi and Vjatichi came from Lachs (=or from West. Lachs is a part of Czechs).
So, Croats and Horutane have L260, Serbs have L1029>YP417. So, YP417 in East is a marker of old Serbs.
In Bulgaria L1029>YP417 (and a little YP263) is a marker of Smoliane, most Southern tribe of Bulgaria in the Rodops.
The history says Serbs and Smoliane both served to Byzantie. Smoliane stayed there, Serbs refused the settlement and went back to Danube bank. But there Serbian leader decided to ask Emperor to give them new lands in the Balkans. Emperor gave them the new land about Sava river. So, Smoliane could be a part of Serbian tribes or the closest relatives. Croats and Karatians came to the Balkans in the 7th century too, they were North of Serbs.
Other variants are possible too. We need the bigger selections (number of samples), so the such reconstruction would be more productive.

Varang
05-13-2020, 01:44 PM
A new release :) Countries (with major numbers) are represented in more geographical way. Y3548 is represented by 3 major subclades: PH908, BY128 and Y4882.

https://i.imgur.com/dNqPwUfh.jpg

Varang
05-14-2020, 10:47 AM
Our mathematician TK made this work more visible according to a geographical distribution. Dendrogram (Ward method):
https://i.imgur.com/em0iSjm.png

P.S. Relatively speaking, there are "Sclavins" above (pure Prague culture), and the branch below are "Antes" (the upper part is Korchak culture/Dulebs with YP1337<L260, below it is pure Antes/Penkovka culture).

P.S.S. The main advantage of the method is that different testability by country does not play any role.
When compiling branches with approximately the same historical period, there will be a plausible correlation for their later geographical distribution. Later reverse migrations were also taken into account, as the established groups did this together.

Varang
05-16-2020, 03:31 PM
... error

Varang
05-16-2020, 03:32 PM
Without any color - Western Central European clades, Light green - the Middle, Yellow - "Ants" (Old East + the Balkans), Orange - Old East without the Balkans

https://i.imgur.com/8EeYTX6h.jpg

Varang
05-17-2020, 08:07 AM
In context of L1029 it is interesting question when and how YP417 came to East.
Archeological way was the such: Penkovka < Chernyakhov (Gots, Antes, Thracians, Daci) + a part of Kiev culture. (Kiev culture < Zarubintsy culture[Bastarns, protoSlavs, a little Sarmats and Balts]).

missur
09-05-2020, 04:49 PM
Hi Varang,

i am new on forum. I saw on some other forums that you write about Croatians being only L260.

Well i am L1029 and YP417.

Just to let you know. I was reading your posts with great enjoyment. I am glad that there is a person who you can ask about P417.