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madaleninha
04-29-2020, 11:44 PM
Hello gentlemen!

Some of you may be familiar with the analysis done on the teeth of Mal'ta's remains by Russian anthropologists . Mal'ta actually contains two individuals, two children, and we have the DNA of the oldest child. What is not known is that the older child's teeth were also analyzed by C. G. Turner, one of the greatest authorities in Asian / Amerindian dental evolution. For him, the remains of Mal'ta fit into the European paleolithic, and are not of the type common in Mongoloid populations! The teeth don't show shovelling at all (judge by yourself) which is consistent with the fact that the allele derived from the EDAR gene is not common in populations derived from the "Ancient North Eurasias", with the exception of course of those with substantial East Asian ancestry, such as the Amerindians themselves.

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rms2
04-30-2020, 01:47 PM
Amerindians have Ancient East Asian as well as Ancient North Eurasian admixture. Ancient North Eurasians like Mal'ta Boy didn't have that Ancient East Asian component, and modern Europeans don't have it either.

parasar
04-30-2020, 03:52 PM
Hello gentlemen!

Some of you may be familiar with the analysis done on the teeth of Mal'ta's remains by Russian anthropologists . Mal'ta actually contains two individuals, two children, and we have the DNA of the oldest child. What is not known is that the older child's teeth were also analyzed by C. G. Turner, one of the greatest authorities in Asian / Amerindian dental evolution. For him, the remains of Mal'ta fit into the European paleolithic, and are not of the type common in Mongoloid populations! The teeth don't show shovelling at all (judge by yourself) which is consistent with the fact that the allele derived from the EDAR gene is not common in populations derived from the "Ancient North Eurasias", with the exception of course of those with substantial East Asian ancestry, such as the Amerindians themselves.

37410
37411

I believe Turner was of the opinion that ancient Siberians were Sundadont and that Sinodonts derived from Sundadonts.
https://books.google.com/books?id=W3VKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA258
https://books.google.com/books?id=HLFzywF8OFsC&pg=PA220

Some early Americans may have been Sundadonts too though Turner thought that they were all Sinodonts.

madaleninha
05-01-2020, 03:48 PM
But he is not associating the tooth morphology with "sudadontism". He is clearly associating them with European morphology.

parasar
05-01-2020, 09:12 PM
I believe Turner was of the opinion that ancient Siberians were Sundadont and that Sinodonts derived from Sundadonts.
https://books.google.com/books?id=W3VKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA258
https://books.google.com/books?id=HLFzywF8OFsC&pg=PA220

Some early Americans may have been Sundadonts too though Turner thought that they were all Sinodonts.

"Our data show that a variant in EDAR that affects tooth shape, hair follicles and thickness, sweat, and mammary gland ductal branching and that occurs at nearly 100%
frequency in present day Native Americans and East Asians
(Kamberov et al., 2013) was not fixed in USR1, Anzick-1, a
Brazil_LapaDoSanto_9600BP individual and a Brazil_Laranjal_
6700BP individual, all of whom carry the ancestral allele
(Table S7). Thus, the derived allele rose in frequency in parallel
in both East Asians and in Native Americans."
https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(18)31380-1.pdf

parasar
05-01-2020, 09:41 PM
But he is not associating the tooth morphology with "sudadontism". He is clearly associating them with European morphology.

Turner considered Sundadonty or proto-Sundadonty to be the ancestral form for almost all modern humans.

"Sundadonty or more likely proto-Sundadonty, as the ancestral pattern for all modern humans ... Sundadonts or proto-Sundadonts westward along the coast of India, and eventually into the Middle East and North Africa."
The Anthropology of Modern Human Teeth: Dental Morphology and Its Variation By G. Richard Scott, Christy G. Turner


"His student J. D. Irish has used the same studies of teeth on Africans, finding their pattern different from sundadonty, and marked by archaic traits, which sundadonty is not — another signal of African antiquity south of the Sahara."
https://books.google.com/books?id=HLFzywF8OFsC&pg=PA220

ThirdTerm
05-04-2020, 07:20 AM
For him, the remains of Mal'ta fit into the European paleolithic, and are not of the type common in Mongoloid populations! The teeth don't show shovelling at all (judge by yourself) which is consistent with the fact that the allele derived from the EDAR gene is not common in populations derived from the "Ancient North Eurasias", with the exception of course of those with substantial East Asian ancestry, such as the Amerindians themselves.


The Mal'ta boy (MA-1) from Lake Baikal has a Paleolithic European genetic profile with mtDNA hg U and Y-DNA hg R*, which are typical West Eurasian haplogroups. MA-1 is remotely related to Native Americans as it is estimated that 14-38% of the ancestry of Native Americans traces to a population like the one living at Mal'ta 24,000 years ago (Raghavan et al. 2014). Turner's book on Ice Age Siberia was published in 2013 (Cambridge University Press). He may have been familiar with the genetic makeup of the Mal'ta boy and rightly guessed the Mal'ta boy's background. I accessed a portion of the book on the Mal'ta site (pp. 173-183) but there is no mention of the EDAR gene common in East Asia.



Abstract
The origins of the First Americans remain contentious. Although Native Americans seem to be genetically most closely related to east Asians1,2,3, there is no consensus with regard to which specific Old World populations they are closest to4,5,6,7,8. Here we sequence the draft genome of an approximately 24,000-year-old individual (MA-1), from Mal’ta in south-central Siberia9, to an average depth of 1. To our knowledge this is the oldest anatomically modern human genome reported to date. The MA-1 mitochondrial genome belongs to haplogroup U, which has also been found at high frequency among Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers10,11,12, and the Y chromosome of MA-1 is basal to modern-day western Eurasians and near the root of most Native American lineages5. Similarly, we find autosomal evidence that MA-1 is basal to modern-day western Eurasians and genetically closely related to modern-day Native Americans, with no close affinity to east Asians. This suggests that populations related to contemporary western Eurasians had a more north-easterly distribution 24,000 years ago than commonly thought. Furthermore, we estimate that 14 to 38% of Native American ancestry may originate through gene flow from this ancient population. This is likely to have occurred after the divergence of Native American ancestors from east Asian ancestors, but before the diversification of Native American populations in the New World. Gene flow from the MA-1 lineage into Native American ancestors could explain why several crania from the First Americans have been reported as bearing morphological characteristics that do not resemble those of east Asians2,13. Sequencing of another south-central Siberian, Afontova Gora-2 dating to approximately 17,000 years ago14, revealed similar autosomal genetic signatures as MA-1, suggesting that the region was continuously occupied by humans throughout the Last Glacial Maximum. Our findings reveal that western Eurasian genetic signatures in modern-day Native Americans derive not only from post-Columbian admixture, as commonly thought, but also from a mixed ancestry of the First Americans.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12736


Animal Teeth and Human Tools
A Taphonomic Odyssey in Ice Age Siberia

Christy G. Turner II, Arizona State University , Nicolai D. Ovodov, Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography, Novosibirsk, Russia , Olga V. Pavlova

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/animal-teeth-and-human-tools/64F650352DB589BFF344FD4D17B2927C

rms2
05-04-2020, 02:29 PM
Here's a graphic I made awhile back. It might be helpful.

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etrusco
05-04-2020, 06:32 PM
Here's a graphic I made awhile back. It might be helpful.

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With the premise that I'm just amateurish but it seems to me that Reich overestimates the difference between northern and southern europeans, maybe because he's missing the fact that ANE itself is made up of a predominantly west eurasian source basically

ANE= 75% EWE or CWE ( early west eurasian or common west eurasian) 25% ANA ( ancient north Asia)
so both northern and southern europeans are overall the same population but because of the more ANE in northern europe ( brought at the time of the steppe introgression) northern europeans are more pulled toward north asia while southern europeans have less of this component and at the same time are slightly more pulled toward a more basal eurasian source which makes sense from a geographical point of view.

Or maybe I'm just uttering BS

rms2
05-04-2020, 06:47 PM
I think he was marking the difference between ANE and ANF and using modern Sardinians as proxies for ANF.

madaleninha
05-04-2020, 11:42 PM
The Mal'ta boy (MA-1) from Lake Baikal has a Paleolithic European genetic profile with mtDNA hg U and Y-DNA hg R*, which are typical West Eurasian haplogroups. MA-1 is remotely related to Native Americans as it is estimated that 14-38% of the ancestry of Native Americans traces to a population like the one living at Mal'ta 24,000 years ago (Raghavan et al. 2014). Turner's book on Ice Age Siberia was published in 2013 (Cambridge University Press). He may have been familiar with the genetic makeup of the Mal'ta boy and rightly guessed the Mal'ta boy's background. I accessed a portion of the book on the Mal'ta site (pp. 173-183) but there is no mention of the EDAR gene common in East Asia.


Mal'ta SNP data is free on the Reich Lab site. I checked, he has the ancestral (non-Asian) allele for the EDAR gene. AfontovaGora-2 has no result for the same SNP. AfontovaGora-3 has the ancestral too.

madaleninha
05-05-2020, 12:00 AM
With the premise that I'm just amateurish but it seems to me that Reich overestimates the difference between northern and southern europeans, maybe because he's missing the fact that ANE itself is made up of a predominantly west eurasian source basically

ANE= 75% EWE or CWE ( early west eurasian or common west eurasian) 25% ANA ( ancient north Asia)
so both northern and southern europeans are overall the same population but because of the more ANE in northern europe ( brought at the time of the steppe introgression) northern europeans are more pulled toward north asia while southern europeans have less of this component and at the same time are slightly more pulled toward a more basal eurasian source which makes sense from a geographical point of view.

Or maybe I'm just uttering BS

It is interesting that Sikora in "The population history of northeastern Siberia since the Pleistocene" models Mal'ta as 88% Ancient North Siberian, 12% "ancestral caucasian". The article predates the Dzudzuana pre-print. Perhaps, when the data from the Dzudzuana hunter-gatherers is free, we can model the origin of the Mal'ta boy better.

Coldmountains
05-05-2020, 12:40 AM
With the premise that I'm just amateurish but it seems to me that Reich overestimates the difference between northern and southern europeans, maybe because he's missing the fact that ANE itself is made up of a predominantly west eurasian source basically

ANE= 75% EWE or CWE ( early west eurasian or common west eurasian) 25% ANA ( ancient north Asia)
so both northern and southern europeans are overall the same population but because of the more ANE in northern europe ( brought at the time of the steppe introgression) northern europeans are more pulled toward north asia while southern europeans have less of this component and at the same time are slightly more pulled toward a more basal eurasian source which makes sense from a geographical point of view.

Or maybe I'm just uttering BS
I agree the idea that Northern Europeans are between Sardinians and Native Americans is quite wrong. Even EHG is not much closer to Amerindians than to Anatolia_Barcin on Global25 and Yamnaya was much closer to Anatolia_Barcin than to any Amerindians. Sardinians would be even closer to EHG/Yamnaya. Intermediate between Amerindians and Europeans would be rather WSHG and some ancient Central Asian groups but they died out.

Distance to Rus_Samara_HG

0.42698595 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.44269656 USA_Ancient_Beringian

Distance to: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

0.33822432 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.46671352 USA_Ancient_Beringian