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Farroukh
05-04-2020, 01:12 PM
In couple of messages I posted about DNA tests of Egyptian mummies from the Pushkin Museum (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=650563&viewfull=1#post650563) and Ramesses III (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20111-Famous-E-M2-persons&p=660121&viewfull=1#post660121)

One of two mummies from Pushkin museum was E-Y32576, but with no info about personal data.
Most news stories overhyped only mummy of Khor-Aha.

Finn
05-04-2020, 06:32 PM
So for E-Y32576 we have two candidates Shepsj-pu-Min (https://pushkinmuseum.art/data/fonds/ancient_east/1_1_a/1_1_a_5304__5305__5307__5336__5337/index.php?lang=en) or Hor-Kha (https://pushkinmuseum.art/data/fonds/ancient_east/1_1_a/1_1_a_5301/index.php?lang=en).

In the case of E-V22/ E-Y32576 I would bet on Shepsj-pu-Min. Why?
Because he obviously lived in Akhmim, Upper Egypt, that's close and has more acces to E-V22 hotspots in the Western Dessert and Nubia/Punt etc.
But I could be wrong...

Shepsj-pu-Min has something artistic by the way, he made a table dedicated to his mother, he displays her smelling a Lotus-flower. Not much seen at that time in history:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/2b9iwdbxk32.26.00.png

Bealfire
05-04-2020, 07:11 PM
Bluish amazing. An autosomal extraction would be so awesome as well if only.

Hawk
05-04-2020, 07:22 PM
Cool, finally real Egyptian Y-DNA gets published.

Farroukh
05-04-2020, 08:41 PM
If it was Hor-Kha we can attribute Y-DNA of First dynasty et al.

Finn
05-05-2020, 12:33 PM
In couple of messages I posted about DNA tests of Egyptian mummies from the Pushkin Museum (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=650563&viewfull=1#post650563) and Ramesses III (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20111-Famous-E-M2-persons&p=660121&viewfull=1#post660121)

One of two mummies from Pushkin museum was E-Y32576, but with no info about personal data.
Most news stories overhyped only mummy of Khor-Aha.


Farroukh we can delete Hor-KA, it was a woman so no Y-DNA:
ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY OF THE MUMMY OF HOR-KHA (Inv.No.I,1a 5301) BASED ON COMPUTED TOMOGRAPHY IMAGESFigure 1 shows as an example a reconstruction of completely bandaged mummy of Hor-Kha. Mummy’sarms are crossed on the breast, and the left hand is balled into a fist. The cavities of the body and scull arefilled with a solidified solution. Tissue bundles can beseen within the body.The anthropological analysis based on CT datarevealed mummy’s gender and age. Its sex assignment was mainly determined from the morphology of pelvic bones and scull relief development; these features sug-gested that the sample studied is a female mummy.
https://www.academia.edu/37446247/Interdisciplinary_Study_of_Egyptian_Mummies_from_t he_Pushkin_State_Museum_of_Fine_Arts_Collection_at _the_National_Research_Centre_Kurchatov_Institute_

Finn
05-05-2020, 01:42 PM
I did some close reading and fine listening (long live the you tube under titling) and I took some screenshots that I translated.

I guess this frame work is important, there are nine mummies researched that belonged to the Pushkin collection, they fall into the following time reach 1st mill. BCE to the I–III centuries CE, in other words between 1000 BC and 300 AD or 3000 BP and 1700 BP.

That's the Third Intermediate, wiki:

The Third Intermediate Period of Ancient Egypt began with the death of Pharaoh Ramesses XI in 1070 BC, which ended the New Kingdom, and was eventually followed by the Late Period. Various points are offered as the beginning for the latter era, though it is most often regarded as dating from the foundation of the Twenty-Sixth Dynasty by Psamtik I in 664 BC, following the expulsion of the Nubian Kushite rulers of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty by the Assyrians under King Assurbanipal. The concept of a "Third Intermediate Period" was coined in 1978 by British Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen.[1]

And the Late Period and finally the Hellenistic Period:

The Late Period of ancient Egypt refers to the last flowering of native Egyptian rulers after the Third Intermediate Period in the 26th Saite Dynasty founded by Psamtik I, but includes the time of Achaemenid Persian rule over Egypt after the conquest by Cambyses II in 525 BC as well. The Late Period existed from 664 BC until 332 BC, following a period of foreign rule by the Nubian 25th dynasty and beginning with a short period of Neo-Assyrian suzerainty, with Psamtik I initially ruling as their vassal. The period ended with the conquests of the Persian Empire by Alexander the Great and establishment of the Ptolemaic dynasty by his general Ptolemy I Soter, one of the Hellenistic diadochi from Macedon in northern Greece. With the Macedonian Greek conquest in the latter half of the 4th century BC, the age of Hellenistic Egypt began.Libyans and Persians alternated rule with native Egyptians, but traditional conventions continued in the arts



These nine mummies are listed as follows:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/hfsvd9dj6lk.23.01.png
https://www.mupload.nl/img/rzvzrongdam.06.09.png

Important is that the documentary mentions that:


• 4 are men 5 are women
• in 3 cases the sex of mummies varied from museum list


add about the sex of the mummies, Hor-Kha seems to be one of them. So regarding the names I guess it will stay unfortunately mister X...

Farroukh
05-05-2020, 06:31 PM
It is amazing why they did not publish the names (or another identification nicks) of tested mummies. As it seems to me, if there is a pharaoh's DNA mass media will turn it into sensation. Probably, tested persons are not "VIP of Ancient Egypt"

Finn
05-05-2020, 06:50 PM
It is amazing why they did not publish the names (or another identification nicks) of tested mummies. As it seems to me, if there is a pharaoh's DNA mass media will turn it into sensation. Probably, tested persons are not "VIP of Ancient Egypt"

I guess most of them are not known by names. And some of them like 'lady Tashat' turned out to be a man ;)

We are definitely dealing with the highest ranks in the old Egyptian society but not the one and only pharaohs...

Finn
05-05-2020, 08:38 PM
It is amazing why they did not publish the names (or another identification nicks) of tested mummies. As it seems to me, if there is a pharaoh's DNA mass media will turn it into sensation. Probably, tested persons are not "VIP of Ancient Egypt"

But I agree with you they could give more context. There most be a story behind every mummy.
There is a remark in a Unesco paper (about the Egypt collections) about it:


Al the ancient Egyptian items in Soviet museums were listed in the Register, with the exception of the Egyptian collections at the A.S.Pushkin State Museum of FineArts (Moscow) and the State Hermitage Museum (StPetersburg).These collections are so vast that they require a special separate catalogue for each section.

Farroukh
05-06-2020, 11:43 AM
According to ISOGG 2018/2020 tree E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a level is deeper than YFull's E-Y32576 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/) and contains these SNPs:
BY6747, BY6748, BY6750, BY6751, BY6753, BY6754, BY6755, BY6756, BY6757, BY6758, BY6759, BY6760, BY6761, BY6763, BY6764, BY6765, BY6766, BY6767, BY6768, BY6770, BY6771, BY6772, BY6773, BY6774, BY6775, BY6776, BY6777, BY6779, BY6782, BY6783, BY6784, BY6785, BY6786, BY6787, BY6788, BY6789, BY6794, BY6795, BY6796, BY6797, BY6798, BY6800, BY6802, BY6804, BY6805, BY6806, BY6807, BY6808, BY6809, BY6810, BY6811, BY6812, BY6813, BY6906, BY7065, BY7066

Finn, can you find them in your own list?
It is necessary to add ancient sample to Yfull.

Finn
05-07-2020, 08:58 PM
According to ISOGG 2018/2020 tree E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a level is deeper than YFull's E-Y32576 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/) and contains these SNPs:
BY6747, BY6748, BY6750, BY6751, BY6753, BY6754, BY6755, BY6756, BY6757, BY6758, BY6759, BY6760, BY6761, BY6763, BY6764, BY6765, BY6766, BY6767, BY6768, BY6770, BY6771, BY6772, BY6773, BY6774, BY6775, BY6776, BY6777, BY6779, BY6782, BY6783, BY6784, BY6785, BY6786, BY6787, BY6788, BY6789, BY6794, BY6795, BY6796, BY6797, BY6798, BY6800, BY6802, BY6804, BY6805, BY6806, BY6807, BY6808, BY6809, BY6810, BY6811, BY6812, BY6813, BY6906, BY7065, BY7066

Finn, can you find them in your own list?
It is necessary to add ancient sample to Yfull.

Farroukh I send you my kit number, is this helpful?

https://www.mupload.nl/img/gmgsvdifs62.56.23.png
https://www.mupload.nl/img/2pb45mcq.09.07.png

Farroukh
05-08-2020, 07:46 AM
I compared Y-SNP lists of you, M8407 (Palestinian) and "E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a mummy".
According to ISOGG tree (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CoAiWmAyEj6mKyQ9ATuEc7_Z_mxC2-gjU5JYkMkkRcE/edit#gid=149564181), all of them are under E-Y32576, but you and Palestinian guy belong to E1b1b1a1b2a4b5b branch (parallel to "E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a"):

https://b.radikal.ru/b02/2005/1a/93cfc4973fd2.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

Also I saw a new guy (YF73492) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/), after analysis we will see new downstream of E-Y32576.

Finn
05-08-2020, 12:32 PM
I compared Y-SNP lists of you, M8407 (Palestinian) and "E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a mummy".
According to ISOGG tree (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CoAiWmAyEj6mKyQ9ATuEc7_Z_mxC2-gjU5JYkMkkRcE/edit#gid=149564181), all of them are under E-Y32576, but you and Palestinian guy belong to E1b1b1a1b2a4b5b branch (parallel to "E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a"):

https://b.radikal.ru/b02/2005/1a/93cfc4973fd2.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

Also I saw a new guy (YF73492) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/), after analysis we will see new downstream of E-Y32576.

Ok many thanks Farroukh (again ;)

The new guy on the block is a member of the family Hunt....I have contact with him!

And guess what.....

“You don’t think 2,000 years ago that Ancient Egyptians came to Yorkshire –
but they did.”

“It really does widen your horizons – in some ways it blows your mind,”


https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/ancient-egyptians-links-yorkshire-uncovered-1857352?fbclid=IwAR3LxxwFbvFtuYZEGVMBjZsB6JzGzdIo0 lNK0qbqnUx4KVon6zCSvFiKBjM

Finn
05-11-2020, 01:34 PM
I compared Y-SNP lists of you, M8407 (Palestinian) and "E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a mummy".
According to ISOGG tree (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CoAiWmAyEj6mKyQ9ATuEc7_Z_mxC2-gjU5JYkMkkRcE/edit#gid=149564181), all of them are under E-Y32576, but you and Palestinian guy belong to E1b1b1a1b2a4b5b branch (parallel to "E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a"):

https://b.radikal.ru/b02/2005/1a/93cfc4973fd2.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

Also I saw a new guy (YF73492) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/), after analysis we will see new downstream of E-Y32576.

On second thought: does this imply that 5a is seperated from 5b, or is it possible that 5a is parental to 5b, so a>b?

Farroukh
05-12-2020, 08:35 PM
5a&5b are two different downstreams of 5, like brothers. Two sons of the same dad :)

Farroukh
06-15-2020, 08:14 AM
BY6800 branch occured at the tree. It seems to be two samples of the sanme person obtained from different labs. Finn's branch is another one, L1401, 7400/550 ybp.

Finn
06-21-2020, 11:49 AM
It is amazing why they did not publish the names (or another identification nicks) of tested mummies. As it seems to me, if there is a pharaoh's DNA mass media will turn it into sensation. Probably, tested persons are not "VIP of Ancient Egypt"

Farroukh see:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20751-Aethiops-milites-The-genetic-trace-of-Roman-Egyptian-soldiers-in-North-West-Europe&p=677731#post677731

Farroukh
11-03-2020, 08:00 AM
DYS 19 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 389I DYS 389II DYS 390 DYS 391 DYS 392 DYS 393 DYS 437 DYS 438 DYS 448 DYS 456 Y-GATA-H4
19 20 20 13 33 21 8 17 8 14 10 20 13 13
This is the haplotype of Ramesses III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_III). The authors of the article (http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268), using the Athey's predictor (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5b/hapest5.htm) actual for 2012, predicted him as E-M2 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M2/).
8 years later the predictor Nevgen predicts him as E-PH2818 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-PH2818/).

One of PH2818's downstreams (E-Y32576 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/)) was detected at one of mummies from the Pushkin Museum (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=650563&viewfull=1#post650563) (Shepsi-pu-Min or Mahu).

Now I have to correct my post about Ramesses III (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20111-Famous-E-M2-persons&p=660121&viewfull=1#post660121), but it is impossible. :(

Shanck
11-04-2020, 11:42 AM
This is the haplotype of Ramesses III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_III). The authors of the article (http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268), using the Athey's predictor (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5b/hapest5.htm) actual for 2012, predicted him as E-M2 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M2/).
8 years later the predictor Nevgen predicts him as E-PH2818 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-PH2818/).

One of PH2818's downstreams (E-Y32576 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/)) was detected at one of mummies from the Pushkin Museum (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=650563&viewfull=1#post650563) (Shepsi-pu-Min or Mahu).

Now I have to correct my post about Ramesses III (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20111-Famous-E-M2-persons&p=660121&viewfull=1#post660121), but it is impossible. :(

DYS390=21 seems to be characteristic of E-M2, but interesting that he could be E-V22. Hopefully more individuals from ancient Egypt will be analysed.

capsian
03-24-2021, 08:20 PM
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1134/S1995078020050183

The Saite
03-24-2021, 08:33 PM
And just Another V22 appeared.. officially! :beerchug:

capsian
03-24-2021, 08:38 PM
And just Another V22 appeared.. officially! :beerchug:

we wish other ancient Egyptian samples to be announced

capsian
03-24-2021, 08:38 PM
And just Another V22 appeared.. officially! :beerchug:

do you have PDF

drobbah
03-24-2021, 08:45 PM
Results:
-R1b1a1b,L3h
-E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a,N5
-Not enough coverage for haplogroup,N*

L3h is common in modern NE Africa and the Horn.Nothing really surprising here

Hawk
03-24-2021, 09:03 PM
Results:
-R1b1a1b,L3h
-E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a,N5
-Not enough coverage for haplogroup,N*

L3h is common in modern NE Africa and the Horn.Nothing really surprising here

Seems like Obelix and Asterix were present in Ancient Egypt.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/14/95/1c/14951c0a6735217a93a8c7dacea5624a--asterix-obelix-asterix-and-obelix-comics.jpg

I am waiting for Carlos Quilles and his Afro-Asiatic = R1b theory.

drobbah
03-24-2021, 09:11 PM
Seems like Obelix and Asterix were present in Ancient Egypt.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/14/95/1c/14951c0a6735217a93a8c7dacea5624a--asterix-obelix-asterix-and-obelix-comics.jpg

I am waiting for Carlos Quilles and his Afro-Asiatic = R1b theory.

I'm not too familiar with R1b but is this variant associated with the Steppe/Indo-Europeans?

Hawk
03-24-2021, 09:15 PM
I'm not too familiar with R1b but is this variant associated with the Steppe/Indo-Europeans?

I don't know, the R1b-V88 is not definitely, it was in Mesolithic times in the Balkans and probably picked by Cardial Farmers and ending up in North Africa during Neolithic Colonization of the Meditteranean.

So, these R1b clades in Egypt, i have no idea, it needs further resolution to make sense of it, but to be honest it's quite weird and fishy to me.

Lupriac
03-24-2021, 09:18 PM
I'm not too familiar with R1b but is this variant associated with the Steppe/Indo-Europeans?

Per Principe, there's no calls for the L23 SNP so far, the one associated with the Indo-European dispersals. So we'll have to wait and see what comes up. But it's "R1b1a1b" so it's R-M269.

Lupriac
03-24-2021, 09:22 PM
They're actually all males. @capsian Seems like there's more :D

Finn
03-24-2021, 09:24 PM
And just Another V22 appeared.. officially! :beerchug:

thanks!!:humble:

Underlines Faroukh's sharp observation....

Farroukh
03-25-2021, 01:54 AM
Raw data is at NCBI:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bioproject/PRJNA664979

Finn
03-25-2021, 08:50 AM
Raw data is at NCBI:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bioproject/PRJNA664979

Thanks Farroukh would be nice if we can upload it to Yfull.

Farroukh
03-26-2021, 02:20 AM
I have already contacted Yfull on this issue :)

Farroukh
03-26-2021, 07:12 AM
Bad news. It has too low coverage for Yfull :(

Finn
03-26-2021, 07:20 AM
Bad news. It has too low coverage for Yfull :(

:( I already took it into account.

Farroukh
03-26-2021, 10:08 AM
But we can try to analyze it with help of Pribislav. Maybe, he'll find a deeper SNP?

Pribislav
03-26-2021, 01:34 PM
But we can try to analyze it with help of Pribislav. Maybe, he'll find a deeper SNP?

Coverage is way too low in all samples I checked. So low that even the basic haplogroup couldn't be confidently determined for most of the samples.

Finn
03-26-2021, 02:53 PM
Coverage is way too low in all samples I checked. So low that even the basic haplogroup couldn't be confidently determined for most of the samples.

Ok this means that even the the supposed difference between E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a (sample) E1b1b1a1b2a4b5b (my case), what even goes beyond basic I guess, can't be confirmed?

Pribislav
03-26-2021, 03:35 PM
Ok this means that even the the supposed difference between E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a (sample) E1b1b1a1b2a4b5b (my case), what even goes beyond basic I guess, can't be confirmed?

Definitely not, I guess they just randomly picked one of derived SNPs since there are not a lot of them, but due to extremely low coverage none of those SNPs can't be corroborated with derived SNPs at upstream levels. When I saw how excruciatingly bad these samples are, it instantly reminded me of the Koban culture paper from last year, and no surprise, it was done by the same people. Someone should forbid these "scientists" to come close to any ancient sample for the rest of their lives. It would be best if we could just pretend this pathetic excuse of a paper never saw the light of day in the first place.

Finn
03-26-2021, 03:55 PM
Definitely not, I guess they just randomly picked one of derived SNPs since there are not a lot of them, but due to extremely low coverage none of those SNPs can't be corroborated with derived SNPs at upstream levels. When I saw how excruciatingly bad these samples are, it instantly reminded me of the Koban culture paper from last year, and no surprise, it was done by the same people. Someone should forbid these "scientists" to come close to any ancient sample for the rest of their lives. It would be best if we could just pretend this pathetic excuse of a paper never saw the light of day in the first place.

MMMMM:confused: anyway thanks for the info! Prevents fake story's!

Finn
03-26-2021, 04:49 PM
I hope this russians won't touch any other mummies
The samples are trash and gives random results


Raw data is at NCBI:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bioproject/PRJNA664979


And just Another V22 appeared.. officially! :beerchug:



Hey guys!
:behindsofa: Unfortunately they screwed it or the material was too bad to get a good sample, anyhow it's not within our reach. Still we can get the tentative conclusion that Ramses III and Kor-Ha have rudimentary E-V22 (hints? at E-PH2818 if Pribslav is not watching ;)

I guess it underlines the thought that E-V22 is pretty indigenous Egypt, and was a product of a rising civilization along the Nile....