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bradly88
05-06-2020, 04:02 AM
Hi everyone. I got my 23andme ancestry report with traits. Even though I have a red beard my report says that my red hair variant is rs1805007(C;T). The "T" allele indicates red hair. That means I am a red hair carrier. I'm curious about everyone's red hair variants and what they might be. Any comments are most welcome. ;)

rms2
05-06-2020, 12:18 PM
That's Arg151Cys, also known as R151C. Here's a modern distribution map 23andMe put out a few years ago based on customer data. I added the explanatory stuff.

37482

I used to try to keep track of ancient skeletons with red hair variants, but I haven't kept up with that lately. Last I heard, there were two ancient females who were carriers of Arg151Cys: one from Afanasievo and the other from Sintashta. There may be more by now.

RISE509 Afanasievo Bateni, Russia 2887-2677 BC Allentoft 2015 N/A female T2c1a2
RISE395 Sintashta Bolshekaraganskii 1960-1756 BC Allentoft 2015 N/A female U2e1h

JMcB
05-06-2020, 02:41 PM
Congratulations! I also have that variant (rs1805007 / Arg151Cys) along with (rs1805005 / Val60Leu).

rms2
05-06-2020, 05:07 PM
Mine is Arg160Trp, also known as R160W and rs1805008 T.

37486

My dad, who passed away in 2018, was a carrier, my two sons are carriers (the youngest one has two copies), and my youngest daughter is a carrier. My mom does not carry a red hair variant. My two grandsons and one granddaughter who are the children of my youngest son must be carriers, even though they haven't been tested yet, because their dad has two copies (as I mentioned), so he had to give them one. All three of them have red hair, and their mom is a redhead, so they probably have two copies, but I'm not sure what variant their mom passed along to them.

I have two other daughters, but they've not had dna testing, so I don't know whether they carry a red hair variant or not. Likewise, my youngest granddaughter, the child of my eldest son, has never been dna tested, so I don't know her red hair variant status either. She could be a carrier, since her dad is, but she has dark brown hair, so it's hard to tell.

Here's a photo from nearly five years ago of my three redheaded grandchildren.

37484

And here's a photo from nearly seven years ago of my youngest daughter.

37485

glentane
05-06-2020, 06:07 PM
I looked in my FTDNA autosomal. Seems they don't do rs1805007, rs1805009, rs34474212, rs11547464 or i3002507. Or at least I don't know where to find them.
But I still have lots of red hair. Everywhere. Although my beard is now all-white, so I let it grow. It used to be orange-red too, and I got tired of mates calling me "The Tangerine Werewolf", so I shaved, and kept the hair shortish.

This is what I turned up. I have no idea what it means.
rs1110400 TT
rs1805005 GG
rs1805006 CC
rs1805008 TC

I found a list in an old post of yours, RMS (I think).
https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/universal-lineage-testing-autosomal-dna/family-finder-advanced-topics/9912-red-hair-and-family-finder?p=162865#post162865

rms2
05-06-2020, 06:20 PM
. . .

This is what I turned up. I have no idea what it means.
rs1110400 TT
rs1805005 GG
rs1805006 CC
rs1805008 TC

. . .

Congratulations! You are a carrier of the same one I carry, Arg160Trp (R160W). T is the so-called "risk allele" and is what makes you a carrier.

Look at my last post for a map of the modern distribution of Arg160Trp, based on 23andMe customer data.

Here's a list of ancient skeletons that were carriers of Arg160Trp, from back when I was maintaining such lists. There may be more such skeletons that have been tested since I made that list.

Sample ID Culture Location Age Source Y-DNA mtDNA
RISE550 Yamnaya Peshany V, Russia 3334-2635 BC Allentoft 2015 R1b-Z2103 U5a1i
RISE98 Nordic Battle Axe Lilla Beddinge, Sweden 2275-2032 BC Allentoft 2015 R1b-U106 K1b1a1
RISE71 Nordic BA Falshoj, Denmark 2196-2023 BC Allentoft 2015 Unknown H3b
RISE395 Sintashta Bolshekaraganskii, Russia 1960-1756 BC Allentoft 2015 N/A female U2e1h
RISE373 Maros Szoreg, Hungary 1886-1696 BC Allentoft 2015 N/A female K1a2a
RISE500 Andronovo Kytmanovo, Russia ? Allentoft 2015 N/A female U4d1

glentane
05-06-2020, 09:37 PM
There may be more such skeletons that have been tested since I made that list.

Sample ID Culture Location Age Source Y-DNA mtDNA
RISE550 Yamnaya Peshany V, Russia 3334-2635 BC Allentoft 2015 R1b-Z2103 U5a1i
RISE98 Nordic Battle Axe Lilla Beddinge, Sweden 2275-2032 BC Allentoft 2015 R1b-U106 K1b1a1
RISE71 Nordic BA Falshoj, Denmark 2196-2023 BC Allentoft 2015 Unknown H3b
RISE395 Sintashta Bolshekaraganskii, Russia 1960-1756 BC Allentoft 2015 N/A female U2e1h
RISE373 Maros Szoreg, Hungary 1886-1696 BC Allentoft 2015 N/A female K1a2a
RISE500 Andronovo Kytmanovo, Russia ? Allentoft 2015 N/A female U4d1
I've been poking about a bit, and amidst all the excitable chat about WHG/SHG/EEF coloration that went on about 2014-2015, noticed that there's a claim that one of the Motala SHG men (Motala12 I think), ca. 6000BC, carried R160W.

rms2
05-06-2020, 11:14 PM
It seems to me I would have heard about that, but I didn't. Anyway, there was one of the Motala HGs who carried Ile155Thr (I155T):

Motala 3 (I0013) Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherer Motala, Sweden 5898-5531 BC Lazaridis 2013 I2a1b U5a1

glentane
05-07-2020, 11:18 AM
So I had a further rake about, and came up with this from back in 2014, so I don't know how sound it is. Also it's from Genetiker.
Motala 3 had two copies of the ancestral allele of rs1805006, the derived allele of which is associated with red hair and fair skin. Motala 12, Loschbour, Stuttgart, Ajvide 58, and Gökhem 2 also had two copies of the ancestral allele.

Motala 2 had two copies of the ancestral allele of rs1805008, the derived allele of which is also associated with red hair and fair skin. Motala 12, Loschbour, Stuttgart, Stora Förvar 11, Ajvide 58, and Gökhem 2 and 7 also had two copies of the ancestral allele.So it appears that none of them had it toggled to the derived state which causes The Ginger.

rms2
05-07-2020, 01:49 PM
So I had a further rake about, and came up with this from back in 2014, so I don't know how sound it is.



Motala 3 had two copies of the ancestral allele of rs1805006, the derived allele of which is associated with red hair and fair skin. Motala 12, Loschbour, Stuttgart, Ajvide 58, and Gökhem 2 also had two copies of the ancestral allele.

Motala 2 had two copies of the ancestral allele of rs1805008, the derived allele of which is also associated with red hair and fair skin. Motala 12, Loschbour, Stuttgart, Stora Förvar 11, Ajvide 58, and Gökhem 2 and 7 also had two copies of the ancestral allele.

Also it's from Genetiker.So it appears that none of them had it toggled to the derived state which causes The Ginger.

rs1805006 - the one Motala 3 was ancestral for - is Asp84Glu (D84E). I have him as derived for rs1110400: Ile155Thr (I155T).

But I probably got that from Genetiker, as well. Speaking of which, what happened to him? He seems to have disappeared.

mildlycurly
05-07-2020, 07:19 PM
I've looked through my genome and I strangely do not carry any red hair risk alleles. Strangely because one of my great-grandparents was ginger and another was auburn!

rms2
05-07-2020, 07:36 PM
I've looked through my genome and I strangely do not carry any red hair risk alleles. Strangely because one of my great-grandparents was ginger and another was auburn!

Of course, a lot depends on whether they were carriers of two copies apiece, just one apiece, or if one had two copies and the other just one, and whether or not any of your other great grandparents were carriers. If my reasoning is right, given that most of us have eight great grandparents, that gives you at least a 12.5% chance of having a red hair variant (that's if both those great grandparents had just one copy and if none of your other great grandparents had one).

Of course, if that was the case, it means there was an 87.5% chance you wouldn't have a red hair variant.

We'd have to know the red hair variant status of all eight of your great grandparents to know what the actual odds were, however.

bradly88
05-07-2020, 09:47 PM
Other than Europeans, do the Uyghur people of Xin Jiang Province have red hair? I heard that their ancestors were the Tocharians in ancient times in China. Studies have revealed Mummies with red hair buried in the Xin Jiang Province in China.

rms2
05-07-2020, 10:32 PM
I read somewhere that a lot of corpses look like their former occupants had red hair when they were alive, but that’s not the case. Some kind of bleaching out occurs after death that turns hair red looking.

glentane
05-07-2020, 11:37 PM
rs1805006 - the one Motala 3 was ancestral for - is Asp84Glu (D84E). I have him as derived for rs1110400: Ile155Thr (I155T).
I guess he found out that tomorrow doesn't belong to him?
Anyway, seems we're looking more towards "European Russia" of the 4th-3rd millennium BC, or whatever people want to call it. Pops up among Andronovo AND Samara, if I can find the refs. So both ways on, from PC Steppe.
Don't care THAT much, it's just that it's a pretty good trace on the trail of whatever the hell was going on back then, being so flagrant and undeniable and all. Ginger mummies FTW.

glentane
05-08-2020, 12:09 AM
I read somewhere that a lot of corpses look like their former occupants had red hair when they were alive, but that’s not the case. Some kind of bleaching out occurs after death that turns hair red looking.
Aye man. One of the grossest/greatest "must-see" cases in the BM London is "Ginger". Some poor peasanty sod who went to his eternal rest in the mid-4th millennium BC with the expectation of oblivion.
I first saw him in the mid-60s, being urged around the cases by a fanatical aged aunt. Didn't like his bum being up in the air (heaps of hot sand removed), and even then suspected (skool chemistry) his noggin had received the ravages of Time, and Bases. There were no ginger Egyptians. Of that period.
Which gives the lie to those "Tocharian" Taklamakan desert dead folk sunk in (very salty, dry) pits. Only proper aDNA from behind their ears will sort it out.
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/Y_EA32751

rms2
05-08-2020, 12:12 AM
Other than Europeans, do the Uyghur people of Xin Jiang Province have red hair? I heard that their ancestors were the Tocharians in ancient times in China. Studies have revealed Mummies with red hair buried in the Xin Jiang Province in China.

I forget which one it is, but there is actually a red hair variant that prevails in East Asia. One occasionally sees a red-haired East Asian, but I have noticed far more frequently East Asian girls with red highlights in their otherwise dark hair, which one can see when the sun shines on them.

I don't know how common red hair or red hair variants is among the Uighurs.

Token
05-08-2020, 09:05 PM
I forget which one it is, but there is actually a red hair variant that prevails in East Asia. One occasionally sees a red-haired East Asian, but I have noticed far more frequently East Asian girls with red highlights in their otherwise dark hair, which one can see when the sun shines on them.

I don't know how common red hair or red hair variants is among the Uighurs.

Do you mean Val92Met?
https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs2228479

rms2
05-08-2020, 09:37 PM
Do you mean Val92Met?
https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs2228479

I don't remember. The 1,000 Genomes Project has blurbs about a number of the variants. Pretty sure I read about it there, but I don't feel like hunting it up again.

rms2
05-10-2020, 01:30 PM
Here's something interesting from this old post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4002-New-FTDNA-Red-Hair-Variants-Project&p=93422&viewfull=1#post93422):


. . .

The Big 4(or 5): All studies found that of MCR1 variants R151C(T in rs1805007), R160W(T in rs1805008), and D294H(A in rs1805009) can explain most Red Hair. The study on Danish also ranked D84C(T in rs1805006) as being very correlated with Red Hair.

All samples from all studies I've read so far with a derived allele in 2/4 of those SNPs had Red Hair, and all with two derived alleles in 1/4 of those SNPs had Red Hair. 91.5% of RedHeads(78 of 85) have at least one of those four variants. Many people with one of those variants don't have Red Hair. Of 10 Irish males with non-Red head hair and Red Facial hair, 3(30%) had one of the 3 big variants(R151C, R160W, D294H).

There are a bunch of Polish Redheads in this Hirisplex (https://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fsigenetics.com%2Farticle%2 FS1872-4973(12)00181-0%2Ffulltext%23tbl0005&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNErw5Z6LKfN4obPfYk_MWk3tS4znA) study. Of the Total RedHeads(From Ireland and Poland) 23/25 were predicted to have red hair. All were probably double carriers of the big 4, or more minor Red hair variants. 24/25 had one of the big 4 Red hair variants. One didn't have any variants. A Small number of non-Red Haired people in that study appear to have been double-carriers of a major Red Hair variant(big 4) and a minor one. They might have been double carriers of two of the Big 4. So, Red hair in Poland is probably caused by the same variants as Red Hair in Ireland and Denmark.


This post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4002-New-FTDNA-Red-Hair-Variants-Project&p=93424&viewfull=1#post93424) addresses the red hair in East Asians question somewhat with a couple of maps, and this one (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4002-New-FTDNA-Red-Hair-Variants-Project&p=93809&viewfull=1#post93809) mentions that D294H (C in rs1805009) has been found among the Uighurs.

rms2
05-10-2020, 01:46 PM
Here (https://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/) is a pretty decent article from January of 2015 by 23andMe geneticist Kasia Bryc.

Token
05-10-2020, 05:55 PM
Kostenki-14 from Paleolithic Russia seems to have one copy of the R151C red hair mutation according to Genetiker. That would make him the oldest sample to carry this variant.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/analyses-of-the-kostenki-14-genome/

MC1R rs1805007 TC red hair, fair skin