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Sorcelow
05-09-2020, 05:18 PM
The purpose of this thread is to share information regarding Y DNA statistics of the Peloponnese and its subdivisions.

I currently have the results of 67 individuals. These individuals are either people who 1) I personally know, 2) Are related to through 23andme, and have confirmed their origins, or 3) Individuals from the Greek FTDNA Project who have confirmed their Peloponnesian origin.

The regional breakdown of these individuals is below:

Laconia: 26
Arcadia: 18
Messinia:12
Argolis: 5
Achaea: 3
Corinth: 2
Elis: 1


Since I have too few individuals to accurately make regional averages with, I will provide the Y DNA distribution for the whole Peloponnese

E-V13: 19.4%
J2a: 17.9%
I2a-M423: 11.9%
R1b-M269: 7.5%
I1: 7.5%
I2a-M223: 6%
J2b: 5.9%
R1a: 5.9%
G2-P15: 5.9%
T: 5.3%
E1b-V22: 1.5%
H-M52: 1.5%
J1: 1.5%


Hopefully, with the contribution of others, This list can be expanded so that we get a more accurate picture of Peloponnesian Y-DNA distributions on a regional level.

Keqa
05-09-2020, 05:27 PM
Can you break down V13 and R1b into subclades?

Sorcelow
05-09-2020, 05:36 PM
Can you break down V13 and R1b into subclades?

I found 5 of the 12 V13 samples through 23andme, so unfortunately I don't know their subclades. But the others are below

E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>FGC44169>S7461>BY5022>Y150909
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>E-L241
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978
E-V13-Z1057>Y30977


And here is the R1b:

R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269 >L23>Z2103
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269 >L23>Z2103
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110>CTS7556>Y5592>Y10789

SUPREEEEEME
05-09-2020, 05:39 PM
Any J2 subclades?

Keqa
05-09-2020, 06:04 PM
I found 5 of the 12 V13 samples through 23andme, so unfortunately I don't know their subclades. But the others are below

E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>FGC44169>S7461>BY5022>Y150909
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>E-L241
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978
E-V13-Z1057>Y30977


And here is the R1b:

R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269 >L23>Z2103
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269 >L23>Z2103
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110>CTS7556>Y5592>Y10789
Curious if am able to classify some of them deeper, especially the M269, Z2103, Z5018 and L241 fellas. Y10789 is most definitely under Z2705.

Are their Y-STRs public?

Principe
05-09-2020, 06:09 PM
I found 5 of the 12 V13 samples through 23andme, so unfortunately I don't know their subclades. But the others are below

E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>FGC44169>S7461>BY5022>Y150909
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>E-L241
E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978
E-V13-Z1057>Y30977


And here is the R1b:

R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269 >L23>Z2103
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269 >L23>Z2103
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110>CTS7556>Y5592>Y10789

Can you break down the J2a, I know you are one of them at M319>, there should be another 11 if I am correct?

Also good idea for a thread :thumb:, Greece gets often ignored for Y analysis

Hawk
05-09-2020, 06:10 PM
I am curious to see Y-DNA of Tsakonians and Maniots.

I know of one Maniot case, he belonged to E-V13 but don't know the subclade.

Dibran
05-09-2020, 06:19 PM
The purpose of this thread is to share information regarding Y DNA statistics of the Peloponnese and its subdivisions.

I currently have the results of 67 individuals. These individuals are either people who 1) I personally know, 2) Are related to through 23andme, and have confirmed their origins, or 3) Individuals from the Greek FTDNA Project who have confirmed their Peloponnesian origin.

The regional breakdown of these individuals is below:

Laconia: 26
Arcadia: 18
Messinia:12
Argolis: 5
Achaea: 3
Corinth: 2
Elis: 1


Since I have too few individuals to accurately make regional averages with, I will provide the Y DNA distribution for the whole Peloponnese

E-V13: 19.4%
J2a: 17.9%
I2a-M423: 11.9%
R1b-M269: 7.5%
I1: 7.5%
I2a-M223: 6%
J2b: 5.9%
R1a: 5.9%
G2-P15: 5.9%
T: 5.3%
E1b-V22: 1.5%
H-M52: 1.5%
J1: 1.5%


Hopefully, with the contribution of others, This list can be expanded so that we get a more accurate picture of Peloponnesian Y-DNA distributions on a regional level.

Can you break down their R1a and J2b? No rush. And thank you.

xripkan
05-09-2020, 06:25 PM
As a Peloponnesian with roots from Messinia and Arcadia I can contribute to this.
The haplogroups of my confirmed Peloponnesian matches
R-Z19
E-V13 (Messinia)
R-M269 (Arcadia)
R-CTS9219 (Messinia)
R-M512 (Messinia)
J-Z631 (Arcadia)
R-CTS3402 (Messinia)
I-M223
I-M423 (Arcadia)
E-V13
E-M78 (Korinthia)
J-M241 (Arcadia)

We also have here a member (TonyC) with ancestry from Messinia and haplogroup G2a. I can give you also my haplogroup which is R-YP4768<R-Z93 but I know that my paternal lineage is not native Peloponnesian but it came the last 500 years at the region.

Sorcelow
05-09-2020, 06:30 PM
Instead of replying individually to everyone, I will just provide the breakdown below.

Nafplio Argolis Peloponnese Greece E-V13
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece E-V13
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece E-V13
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece E-V13
N/A Messinia or Lakonia Peloponnese Greece E-V13
N/A Arcadia Peloponnese Greece E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>FGC44169>S7461>BY5022>Y150909
N/A Laconia Peloponnese Greece E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978
Gortynia Arcadia Peloponnese Greece E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>E-L241
Trifylia Messinia Peloponnese Greece E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978
Tripoli Arcadia Peloponnese Greece E-V13-Z1057>Y30977
Foloi Elis Peloponnese Greece E1b-M35
Aigaleia Achaea Peloponnese Greece E1b-M35>M78>Z1919>V22
Pylos - Nestoras Messinia Peloponnese Greece G2
Trifylia Messinia Peloponnese Greece G2-P15>L1259>L30>CTS574>CTS2488>PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872
Zacharo Achaea Peloponnese G2-P15>L1259>L30>CTS574>M406
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece G2-P15>L1259>L30>CTS574>M406>M3317>FGC5089>M3302
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece H-M52
N/A Arcadia Peloponnese Greece I-M423
Gortynia Arcadia Peloponnese Greece I1
Mantineia Arcadia Peloponnese Greece I1
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece I1
Tripoli Arcadia Peloponnese Greece I1-DF29>Z58>Z59>Z2041>Z2040>Y3560>Y3568>Y14516>A480*
N/A Laconia Peloponnese Greece I1-DF29>Z58>Z59>Z2041>Z2040>Y3560>Y3568>Y14516>A480>BY37215
Ermionida Argolis Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>M436>M223
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>M436>M223>S12195>I-PF6896
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>M436>M223>S12195>I-PF6896
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>M436>M223>S12195>I-PF6896
Velo - Vocha Corinth Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>P37>M423
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>P37>M423
Gortynia Arcadia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>CTS10228>-Y4460
Tripoli Arcadia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>CTS10228>Y18331
Evrotas Laconia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>CTS10936>S19848>CTS4002>S17250
Evrotas Laconia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>CTS10936>S19848>CTS4002>S17250
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>P37>M423>Y3104>L621>CTS10936>S19848>CTS4002>CTS10228>CTS5966
Pylos - Nestoras Messinia Peloponnese Greece I2a-L460>P37>M423>Y3104>L621>CTS10936>S19848>CTS4002>CTS10228>Y3120>Y18331>A2512>A7134>Y32624
West Mani Messinia Peloponnese Greece J-M172
Tripoli Arcadia Peloponnese Greece J1-Z2215>Z2217>L620>PF4816>L136
Tripoli Arcadia Peloponnese Greece J2
East Mani Laconia Peloponnese Greece J2
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece J2a
Kalamata Messinia Peloponnese Greece J2a
Mantineia Arcadia Peloponnese Greece J2a-PF4610>L26
Trifylia Messinia Peloponnese Greece J2a-PF4610>L26
N/A Laconia Peloponnese Greece J2a-PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>L558>M67>Z1847>Z500>J-M92
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece J2a-PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>L558>Y5014>M319>J-Y16819*
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece J2a-PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>L558>Y5014>M319>J-Y16819*
Kalavrita Achaea Peloponnese Greece J2a-PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece J2a-PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67
Corinth Corinth Peloponnese Greece J2a-PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25
Argos - Mykines Argolis Peloponnese Greece J2b-Z534>M205
Epidavros Argolis Peloponnese Greece J2b-Z534>M205
Mantineia Arcadia Peloponnese Greece J2b-Z534>Z1825>Z593>M241
Nafplio Argolis Peloponnese Greece J2b-Z638>Z1297
Sparta Laconia Peloponnese Greece R1a-M417
Messinia Peloponnese Greece R1a-M417>Z283>Z280>Y35>CTS3402
N/A Laconia Peloponnese Greece R1a-M417>Z283>Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402
Evrotas Laconia Peloponnese Greece R1a-M417>Z283>Z282>Z280>Z92
Megalopoli Arcadia Peloponnese Greece R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269
Skiritida Arcadia Peloponnese Greece R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269
Gortynia Arcadia Peloponnese Greece R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269 >L23>Z2103
Megalopoli Arcadia Peloponnese Greece R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269 >L23>Z2103
Oichalia Messinia Peloponnese Greece R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110>CTS7556>Y5592>Y10789
South Kynouria Arcadia Peloponnese Greece T-M70
Kalamata Messinia Peloponnese Greece T-M70-L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709>CTS7703>Z710>L906>Y484>P77>Y4964>Y29990
N/A Messinia Peloponnese Greece T-M70-L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709>CTS7703>Z710>L906>Y484>P77>Y4964>Y29990

Sorcelow
05-09-2020, 06:33 PM
I am curious to see Y-DNA of Tsakonians and Maniots.

I know of one Maniot case, he belonged to E-V13 but don't know the subclade.

I have two Maniot results, one from Messinian Mani and the other from Laconian. I believe they are both J2. My ancestry is from just north of Mani and I am J2a-M319. I think I also have a guy from Leonidio, Tsakonia, who is T-M70.

J Man
05-09-2020, 07:23 PM
I am curious to see Y-DNA of Tsakonians and Maniots.

I know of one Maniot case, he belonged to E-V13 but don't know the subclade.

Same here...I would really like to see more Maniots tested.

Kelmendasi
05-09-2020, 07:26 PM
I have a few matches on 23andme that are from the Peloponnese:

1) R-CTS1211 - Paternal origin from Koroni, Messenia, Greece
2) R-L23 - Paternal origin from Neochori, Messenia, Greece
3) R-CTS9219 - Paternal origin from Kalamata, Messenia, Greece
4) J-L70 - Paternal origin from Kalavryta, Achaea, Greece
5) E-V13 - Paternal origin from Tripoli, Arcadia, Greece
6) Q-L713 - Paternal origin from the Peloponnese, Greece
7) E-V13 - Paternal origin from Patras, Achaea, Greece
8) E-V13 - Paternal origin from Limnochori, Achaea, Greece
9) J-M92 - Paternal origin from Tripoli, Arcadia, Greece

J Man
05-09-2020, 07:27 PM
I have two Maniot results, one from Messinian Mani and the other from Laconian. I believe they are both J2. My ancestry is from just north of Mani and I am J2a-M319. I think I also have a guy from Leonidio, Tsakonia, who is T-M70.

Interesting but I don't quite understand when you say you "believe" that they are J2?...They certainly are listed as J2 in the result list you showed us.

Sorcelow
05-09-2020, 07:31 PM
Interesting but I don't quite understand when you say you "believe" that they are J2?...They certainly are listed as J2 in the result list you showed us.

I replied to you on the top of my head without looking at my list to confirm. But yes, they are J2.

xripkan
05-09-2020, 08:01 PM
I have a few matches on 23andme that are from the Peloponnese:

1) R-CTS1211 - Paternal origin from Koroni, Messenia, Greece
2) R-L23 - Paternal origin from Neochori, Messenia, Greece
3) R-CTS9219 - Paternal origin from Kalamata, Messenia, Greece
4) J-L70 - Paternal origin from Kalavryta, Achaea, Greece
5) E-V13 - Paternal origin from Tripoli, Arcadia, Greece
6) Q-L713 - Paternal origin from the Peloponnese, Greece
7) E-V13 - Paternal origin from Patras, Achaea, Greece
8) E-V13 - Paternal origin from Limnochori, Achaea, Greece
9) J-M92 - Paternal origin from Tripoli, Arcadia, Greece

Q haplogroup among Peloponnesians? Maybe from an assimilated Turk. I had also found N1c haplogroup from Arcadia at yfull. I don't remember the subclade but all the other matches were Russian (I think Tatars). I will search for it.

Kelmendasi
05-09-2020, 08:26 PM
Q haplogroup among Peloponnesians? Maybe from an assimilated Turk. I had also found N1c haplogroup from Arcadia at yfull. I don't remember the subclade but all the other matches were Russian (I think Tatars). I will search for it.
It certainly is interesting. His surname is a rather typical Greek surname, it also suggests that he is an Orthodox Christian.

On Yfull Q-L713 is broken down into two branches that split ~3,800ybp; L713>YP1677 and L713>YP789. YP1677 is represented by a sample from the Lorestan Province of Iran and a sample from Uzbekistan. They both share a common ancestor ~425ybp. YP789 is represented by a sample from Hungary, a sample from Wielkopolskie in Poland and a sample from a study. They share a TMRCA ~1,650ybp.

I also see that on FTDNA there is a Serb and a Macedonian from North Macedonia that are L713+, likely that this Greek falls under the same cluster.

As for ancient DNA, a Tian Shan Hun from Kyrgyzstan was identified as L713+. It has also been found in multiple samples from Chukotka, Russia, as well as in one from Patagonia in Chile.

J Man
05-09-2020, 08:31 PM
I replied to you on the top of my head without looking at my list to confirm. But yes, they are J2.

Are both of these J2 Maniot guys below that are on your list from 23andme?

West Mani Messinia Peloponnese Greece J-M172
East Mani Laconia Peloponnese Greece J2

Sorcelow
05-09-2020, 08:48 PM
Are both of these J2 Maniot guys below that are on your list from 23andme?

West Mani Messinia Peloponnese Greece J-M172
East Mani Laconia Peloponnese Greece J2


Yes, both of them are from 23andme, so unfortunately I don't know their further breakdown.

Dibran
05-09-2020, 10:32 PM
Duplicate

Dibran
05-09-2020, 10:40 PM
Got some more samples together. Messaged some that were private. I inbox their surnames. Just in case of duplicates.


Peloponnese, Greece J-M172
Corinth, Greece J-M241
Likouria, Greece J-CTS5368
Longanikos. Greece E-V13
Loukas, Peloponnisos Dytiki Ellada ke Ionio, Greece I-M253
Sykia, Peloponnisos Dytiki Ellada ke Ionio, Greece J-M172
Tripoli, Greece J-M92
Peloponnisos Dytiki Ellada ke Ionio, Greece R-L23
Peloponnese E-V13
Elis/Ilia, Greece I-CTS5966
Nestani, Greece E-V13
Koroni, Greece R1a-CTS1211

Not sure if Spetzes is considered part of Peloponnese or separate affiliation.
Spetses, Greece T-L131
Spetses, Greece G-L30

xripkan
05-09-2020, 11:38 PM
It certainly is interesting. His surname is a rather typical Greek surname, it also suggests that he is an Orthodox Christian.

On Yfull Q-L713 is broken down into two branches that split ~3,800ybp; L713>YP1677 and L713>YP789. YP1677 is represented by a sample from the Lorestan Province of Iran and a sample from Uzbekistan. They both share a common ancestor ~425ybp. YP789 is represented by a sample from Hungary, a sample from Wielkopolskie in Poland and a sample from a study. They share a TMRCA ~1,650ybp.

I also see that on FTDNA there is a Serb and a Macedonian from North Macedonia that are L713+, likely that this Greek falls under the same cluster.

As for ancient DNA, a Tian Shan Hun from Kyrgyzstan was identified as L713+. It has also been found in multiple samples from Chukotka, Russia, as well as in one from Patagonia in Chile.

So it is possible it comes from early medieval east Eurasian tribes (Avars, Huns etc), right? Here is the guy with N haplogroup https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1442/

Another quetion I have is do you think for I1 haplogroup among Greeks? Could it have Germanic origin?

xripkan
05-10-2020, 12:04 AM
T haplogroup among Peloponnesians seems to have West Asian origin. It possibly came with the West Asian settlements during the Byzantine era.

Kelmendasi
05-10-2020, 12:14 AM
So it is possible it comes from early medieval east Eurasian tribes (Avars, Huns etc), right? Here is the guy with N haplogroup https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1442/

Another quetion I have is do you think for I1 haplogroup among Greeks? Could it have Germanic origin?
Given that it was found in a Hunnic sample it certainly is possible. Q-L715, which is just upstream of L713, has been found in some other Tian Shan Hun samples as well as a Turkic sample from Kyrgyzstan. But we would have to know what downstream he falls under to know for sure. The presence of L713 in some South Slavs is also interesting.

I believe the vast majority of the I1 in the Balkans arrived during the Migration Period with Germanic-speakers or possibly even some Slavic-speakers who had assimilated East Germanic groups. Some clusters also seem to have arrived later during the Medieval period with groups such as the Normans. As for the Greeks specifically, it's hard to say as most Greeks are under tested and so we don't know their specific subclades. I see on Yfull that there are two Greeks that are under I-A480. One is A480* and is from Arcadia whilst the other is A480>BY37215 and is from Laconia. There is also an A480>Y86150 sample from Silistra in Bulgaria. A480 split off from Y14516 ~2,300ybp, whilst the TMRCA lived ~1,650ybp. There is a Y14516* sample from Poland, whilst further upstream clusters are found in the Netherlands, Ireland etc. I believe a descendant of Theodoros Kolokotronis or the Kolokotronis family tested as A480>BY98669, and if I am not mistaken an Aromanian from Albania clusters with him. I may be wrong on that part though.

Chuck
05-10-2020, 12:23 AM
I think about 30 samples per regional sector should be the goal, to get a clear image overall.
Great idea that you started this thread.

23abc
05-10-2020, 01:12 AM
So it is possible it comes from early medieval east Eurasian tribes (Avars, Huns etc), right? Here is the guy with N haplogroup https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1442/

Another quetion I have is do you think for I1 haplogroup among Greeks? Could it have Germanic origin?


Y-Haplogroup Location Num. Same Family Admixture Abnormality
I-L205.1 Greece 1x Normal Aegean islander admixture
I-L205.1 Lakkoi, Chania, Crete 2x 0.2% Melanesian (?)
I-FGC9550 Zakynthos 1x No abnormal admixture
I-Y6228 Greece 2x 0.3% Eastern European
I-M227 Greece 2x 1.7% Eastern European
I-M253 Kalymnos 4x 0.1% Eastern European, 0.2% Northwest European
I-BY332 Crete 1x 0.6% Spanish, 0.1% East Asian
I-Z58 Chios 1x No abnormal admixture

Don't know much about Haplogroups, but those are my I1 23andme matches that are Greek.

Interesting thread, I hope to see what comes from it.

Sorcelow
05-10-2020, 01:24 AM
UPDATE

With the help of some members here, as well as by more carefully checking my 23andme relatives, I now have 148 Peloponnesian samples.

Laconia: 43
Arcadia: 38
Messinia: 30
Achaea: 7
Argolis: 6
Corinth: 6
Elis: 2

The other 16 samples did not provide regional breakdown.

E-V13 24.32% 36
J2a 14.86% 22
R1b-M269 10.81% 16
I2a-M423 9.46% 14
R1a 8.11% 12
J2b 6.08% 9
I1 4.73% 7
I2a-M223 5% 8
G2-P15 4.73% 7
T 2.03% 3
E1b 4.05% 6
H-M52 1.35% 2
J1 2.03% 3
Q-L472 1% 1
L-M349 1% 1


https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/96362140_2675052132600107_6836471303864582144_n.pn g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=KstWszi0o28AX8uKOuM&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=90abe159c90b8947baec472e36cae279&oe=5EDC997A

xripkan
05-10-2020, 02:13 AM
Y-Haplogroup Location Num. Same Family Admixture Abnormality
I-L205.1 Greece 1x Normal Aegean islander admixture
I-L205.1 Lakkoi, Chania, Crete 2x 0.2% Melanesian (?)
I-FGC9550 Zakynthos 1x No abnormal admixture
I-Y6228 Greece 2x 0.3% Eastern European
I-M227 Greece 2x 1.7% Eastern European
I-M253 Kalymnos 4x 0.1% Eastern European, 0.2% Northwest European
I-BY332 Crete 1x 0.6% Spanish, 0.1% East Asian
I-Z58 Chios 1x No abnormal admixture

Don't know much about Haplogroups, but those are my I1 23andme matches that are Greek.

Interesting thread, I hope to see what comes from it.

Eastern European may indicate some recent ancestry from Balkans/Eastern Europe which could have brought this haplogroup.
Another possibility is that this haplogroup arrived in Aegean by Franks.

xripkan
05-10-2020, 02:14 AM
UPDATE

With the help of some members here, as well as by more carefully checking my 23andme relatives, I now have 148 Peloponnesian samples.

Laconia: 43
Arcadia: 38
Messinia: 30
Achaea: 7
Argolis: 6
Corinth: 6
Elis: 2

The other 16 samples did not provide regional breakdown.

E-V13 24.32% 36
J2a 14.86% 22
R1b-M269 10.81% 16
I2a-M423 9.46% 14
R1a 8.11% 12
J2b 6.08% 9
I1 4.73% 7
I2a-M223 5% 8
G2-P15 4.73% 7
T 2.03% 3
E1b 4.05% 6
H-M52 1.35% 2
J1 2.03% 3
Q-L472 1% 1
L-M349 1% 1


https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/96362140_2675052132600107_6836471303864582144_n.pn g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=KstWszi0o28AX8uKOuM&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=90abe159c90b8947baec472e36cae279&oe=5EDC997A

Could you mention the statistics for Maniots and Tsakonians specifically?

Sorcelow
05-10-2020, 02:22 AM
Could you mention the statistics for Maniots and Tsakonians specifically?

1. West Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26
2. West Mani, J2
3. East Mani, J2
4. Oitylo, East Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26

Unfortunately, we only have one sample that can be considered Tsakonian from the town of Leonidio. He is T-M70

Johnny ola
05-10-2020, 02:25 AM
T haplogroup among Peloponnesians seems to have West Asian origin. It possibly came with the West Asian settlements during the Byzantine era.

Τhat could be easily be of neolithic roots as well.Many T lineages arrived in EU during neolithic and later during copper/bronze age.If its recent it is more likely to be coming from the Levant thought..

xripkan
05-10-2020, 02:26 AM
1. West Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26
2. West Mani, J2
3. East Mani, J2
4. Oitylo, East Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26

Unfortunately, we only have one sample that can be considered Tsakonian from the town of Leonidio. He is T-M70

I find very possible the other two J2 are J2a. Unbelievable how genetically isolated these areas are compared to the rest of Mainland Greece.

xripkan
05-10-2020, 02:31 AM
Τhat could be easily be of neolithic roots as well.Many T lineages arrived in EU during neolithic and later during copper/bronze age.If its recent it is more likely to be coming from the Levant thought..

They belong to this subclade
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y29990/
I find more possible they come during Byzantine era.

Sorcelow
05-10-2020, 02:31 AM
Given that it was found in a Hunnic sample it certainly is possible. Q-L715, which is just upstream of L713, has been found in some other Tian Shan Hun samples as well as a Turkic sample from Kyrgyzstan. But we would have to know what downstream he falls under to know for sure. The presence of L713 in some South Slavs is also interesting.

I believe the vast majority of the I1 in the Balkans arrived during the Migration Period with Germanic-speakers or possibly even some Slavic-speakers who had assimilated East Germanic groups. Some clusters also seem to have arrived later during the Medieval period with groups such as the Normans. As for the Greeks specifically, it's hard to say as most Greeks are under tested and so we don't know their specific subclades. I see on Yfull that there are two Greeks that are under I-A480. One is A480* and is from Arcadia whilst the other is A480>BY37215 and is from Laconia. There is also an A480>Y86150 sample from Silistra in Bulgaria. A480 split off from Y14516 ~2,300ybp, whilst the TMRCA lived ~1,650ybp. There is a Y14516* sample from Poland, whilst further upstream clusters are found in the Netherlands, Ireland etc. I believe a descendant of Theodoros Kolokotronis or the Kolokotronis family tested as A480>BY98669, and if I am not mistaken an Aromanian from Albania clusters with him. I may be wrong on that part though.

I think the A480* is the Kolokotronis descendant, but im not 100% sure. Im hoping that Aromanian tests further. Most of the I1 is from Arcadia, which is very interesting.

J Man
05-10-2020, 02:32 AM
1. West Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26
2. West Mani, J2
3. East Mani, J2
4. Oitylo, East Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26

Unfortunately, we only have one sample that can be considered Tsakonian from the town of Leonidio. He is T-M70

Do you from which village in Mani this sample comes from?

West Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26

Sorcelow
05-10-2020, 02:36 AM
Do you from which village in Mani this sample comes from?

West Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26

Unfortunately I do not, he just had “Mani, Messinia” listed on his 23andme.

The other three samples are from Skala Vachos, Oitylo, and Platsa

Johnny ola
05-10-2020, 02:41 AM
They belong to this subclade
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y29990/
I find more possible they come during Byzantine era.

Some of these T and J1 are probably coming from 'Levant Byzantium' or they might have some connection with assilimated Jews during hellenistic and Roman/Byzantium ages i believe.Cretans have also some similar lineages and taking serious their autosomal it seems repopulations from the levant/anatolia have brought these lineages.

xripkan
05-10-2020, 02:52 AM
Some of these T and J1 are probably coming from 'Levant Byzantium' or they might have some connection with assilimated Jews during hellenistic and Roman/Byzantium ages i believe.Cretans have also some similar lineages and taking serious their autosomal it seems repopulations from the levant/anatolia have brought these lineages.

Yes the first Levantine input in the Greek world was in Cyprus during Antiquity and then with the Romaniote Jews who have lived in Greece since late Antiquity. During Byzantine era the Levant and Anatolia input of course became stronger. I read recently about the settlements of a West Asian/Levant group ,the Mardaites, (their exact origin is considered unknown) in mainland Greece during 6th century. 12.000 of them settled south Anatolia but also parts of Mainland Greece (Peloponnese and Epirus).

Johnny ola
05-10-2020, 03:02 AM
Yes the first Levantine input in the Greek world was in Cyprus during Antiquity and then with the Romaniote Jews who have lived in Greece since late Antiquity. During Byzantine era the Levant and Anatolia input of course became stronger. I read recently about the settlements of a West Asian/Levant group ,the Mardaites, (their exact origin is considered unknown) in mainland Greece during 6th century. 12.000 of them settled south Anatolia but also parts of Mainland Greece (Peloponnese and Epirus).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardaites

This?

J Man
05-10-2020, 03:30 AM
I find very possible the other two J2 are J2a. Unbelievable how genetically isolated these areas are compared to the rest of Mainland Greece.

Yes I agree they are both likely J2a. Do you know any people from Mani yourself?

xripkan
05-10-2020, 07:43 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardaites

This?

Yes, it was not the unique settlement from Anatolia/West Asia to Mainland Greece. Another one took place during 8th century.

xripkan
05-10-2020, 07:45 AM
Given that it was found in a Hunnic sample it certainly is possible. Q-L715, which is just upstream of L713, has been found in some other Tian Shan Hun samples as well as a Turkic sample from Kyrgyzstan. But we would have to know what downstream he falls under to know for sure. The presence of L713 in some South Slavs is also interesting.

I believe the vast majority of the I1 in the Balkans arrived during the Migration Period with Germanic-speakers or possibly even some Slavic-speakers who had assimilated East Germanic groups. Some clusters also seem to have arrived later during the Medieval period with groups such as the Normans. As for the Greeks specifically, it's hard to say as most Greeks are under tested and so we don't know their specific subclades. I see on Yfull that there are two Greeks that are under I-A480. One is A480* and is from Arcadia whilst the other is A480>BY37215 and is from Laconia. There is also an A480>Y86150 sample from Silistra in Bulgaria. A480 split off from Y14516 ~2,300ybp, whilst the TMRCA lived ~1,650ybp. There is a Y14516* sample from Poland, whilst further upstream clusters are found in the Netherlands, Ireland etc. I believe a descendant of Theodoros Kolokotronis or the Kolokotronis family tested as A480>BY98669, and if I am not mistaken an Aromanian from Albania clusters with him. I may be wrong on that part though.

Is it possible that a part of I1 could have come to Greece during the late Medieval era by Franks/Western Europeans?

xripkan
05-10-2020, 07:54 AM
Yes I agree they are both likely J2a. Do you know any people from Mani yourself?

Yes, I know some Maniots. I am thinking to propose them to test themshelves.

Johnny ola
05-10-2020, 12:33 PM
This would be a possible Franks, yes look for this the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia

Francia, also called the Kingdom of the Franks (Latin: Regnum Francorum), Frankland, or Frankish Empire, was the largest post-Roman barbarian kingdom in Western Europe. It was ruled by the Franks during Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages

We are talking about this actually...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankokratia

Johnny ola
05-10-2020, 01:35 PM
Ok...Franks are Franks, Franks proper were obviously Franko-Romans the Frankish rule during the Balkans would of been by the same people. I am agreeing that they are Franks and that they obviously were in Greece/Italy at some point in time. That's all. But interesting webpage anyway.

Franks in Greece were not only coming from modern France but also from other latin states especially from Iberia(Catalonia) and also Italy. But i dont Really believe they left a Huge genetic impact genetically to Greek people. Most of them returned to their homeland. They sure left some toponyms especially in southern parts of Greece.

Kelmendasi
05-10-2020, 02:04 PM
Is it possible that a part of I1 could have come to Greece during the late Medieval era by Franks/Western Europeans?
It is possible if certain clusters share common ancestors with Western Europeans during the Medieval era, however without knowing the subclades it's impossible to know for certain. There are some clusters in the Balkans, such as I-FGC33034 (Drobnjaci Cluster), that likely have an origin among and association with Norse or North Germanic-speakers. So it's likely that these clusters arrived with groups such as the Normans, possibly during the Byzantine-Norman wars or with later incursions into the region via the Kingdom of Sicily or other mediums.

J Man
05-10-2020, 02:09 PM
Yes, I know some Maniots. I am thinking to propose them to test themshelves.

Sending you a PM.

Johnny ola
05-10-2020, 02:17 PM
Oh yes sure. But I am interested in which Franks genetically they would match up to. ( At least in the modern sense )

I'll rep you for that last comment.

Pretty much Like French people, Catalonians, North Italians as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Hainaut
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleramici
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_la_Roche_family
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villehardouin_family
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallavicini_family
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_Dandolo
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Genoa

Michalis Moriopoulos
05-10-2020, 04:16 PM
1. West Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26
2. West Mani, J2
3. East Mani, J2
4. Oitylo, East Mani, J2a-PF4610>L26

Nice. I knew there was a reason I liked Maniots. :D

Sorcelow
05-10-2020, 04:19 PM
Arcadia (N=38)

E-V13: 18.3%
J2a: 13.2%
R1b-M269: 18.4%
I2a-M423: 10.5%
R1a: 2.6%
J2b: 7.9%
I1: 21.1%
I2a-M223: 0%
G2-P15: 2.6%
T: 2.6%
E1b: 0%
H-M52: 2.6%
J1: 7.9%
Q-L472: 0%
L-M349: 0%


Laconia (N=46)

E-V13: 23.9%
J2a: 17.4%
R1b-M269: 4.3%
I2a-M423: 13%
R1a: 4.3%
J2b: 2.2%
I1: 4.3%
I2a-M223: 15.1%
G2-P15: 2.1%
T: 0%
E1b: 2.1%
H-M52: 2.1%
J1: 0%
Q-L472: 0%
L-M349: 2.1%


Messinia (N=32)


E-V13: 25%
J2a: 15.6%
R1b-M269: 15.6%
I2a-M423: 6.25%
R1a: 18.6%
J2b: 0%
I1: 0%
I2a-M223: 0%
G2-P15: 9.4%
T: 6.3%
E1b: 3.1%
H-M52: 0%
J1: 0%
Q-L472: 3.1%
L-M349: 0%



There is a very strong presence of I1 in Arcadia. A descendant of Kolokotronis tested I1-A480.

There is also a very strong presence of I2a-M223 in Laconia, specifically around the Mystras area. My maternal uncle is one of those samples.

J2a seems to get stronger the further south you go.

Hawk
05-10-2020, 04:34 PM
The more south you go J2b drops in percentage, Messinia has 0%. Same with I1. Messinia has 20% R1a. Interesting. But the sample size is too low to make such conclusions.

Sorcelow
05-10-2020, 04:37 PM
The more south you go J2b drops in percentage, Messinia has 0%. Same with I1.

Messinia has 20% R1a. Interesting. But the sample size is too low to make such conclusions.

It will probably balance out with I2a-M423 with more sampling.

Hawk
05-10-2020, 04:39 PM
It will probably balance out with I2a-M423 with more sampling.

I would suggest you and everyone(other countries) to create a content hub, single source of truth for all regions. A Headless CMS would be great. Put content generate API from data which can be used everywhere.

J Man
05-10-2020, 06:31 PM
I need to look but some of the other places are Calabria, probably East Sicily and Montenegro. Cyprus Greek ( and please don't shoot me ) Turkish Cypriots have it also. An interesting haplogroup.

No, ''Greeks'' of the other islands seem to have more J2b. Crete has more J2b and R1b?

Crete is by far mostly J2a when it comes to the J2 there.

dosas
05-10-2020, 06:55 PM
There's some on the R1b-Basal project on FTDNA, dunno if the OP has already included them.

R-CTS7822, Leontari.
R1b-L584>PF7580>Y18687>BY103576>BY100886 level [predicted], Skyritida.
R1b-Y4362, Tripoli.
R1b-Z2103 level [predicted], Dimitsana.
R1b-CTS9219>Y18959>BY611>Y23373>PH970, Mation.

23abc
05-10-2020, 07:03 PM
Interesting that the haplogroup frequency is so different to the Greeks that I match. Among my matches, J2a is by far the most common haplogroup, and E-V13 is only around the 10% frequency, less than even R1a. But even the stats shown here show some big differences even in nearby areas, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

oz
05-10-2020, 08:01 PM
On ftdna haplotree out of 656 Greeks there's only 13 under I1, which equals to only 2%.
Not claiming this is the most reliable source but at least it's a pretty large sample size, compared with only 30 to a hundred samples. And too bad they don't have information about specific regions of the countries.

Sorcelow
05-10-2020, 08:09 PM
On ftdna haplotree out of 656 Greeks there's only 13 under I1, which equals to only 2%.
Not claiming this is the most reliable source but at least it's a pretty large sample size, compared with only 30 to a hundred samples. And too bad they don't have information about specific regions of the countries.

I1 in the samples I currently have comes out to a little under 5%, which I think lines up with the haplotree on FTDNA, considering that that project probably includes samples not from the mainland, and naturally have lower amounts of I1.

We still need many more samples to get a clearer picture, especially on a subregional level. I think the high percentage of I1 in Arcadia will eventually lower down with more sampling, but I don't think its a coincidence that what we have so far paints a picture of I1 being strongly represented in Arcadia.

Kelmendasi
05-10-2020, 08:16 PM
https://scontent.flhr6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/83914450_1791215814342389_213489625849659392_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=05277f&_nc_ohc=b-edZyDA-cQAX_8w57-&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr6-1.fna&oh=c1425ace6a632f04c74a80a0c954135d&oe=5EDECE84

This is the J2b route, it seems to have skipped ancient Egyptian and started in the Levant then didn't go much to the Balkans but went straight to Greece, Crete, Cyprus Central Italy etc.
That map shows the spread of J2 as a whole, not J2b. In Europe, J2b is found in negligible amounts outside of Albanians and some other groups in the Balkans.

As for the migration route of J2b, this depends on J2b1 and J2b2. J2b itself however most likely arose in West Asia.

oz
05-10-2020, 08:20 PM
I1 in the samples I currently have comes out to a little under 5%, which I think lines up with the haplotree on FTDNA, considering that that project probably includes samples not from the mainland, and naturally have lower amounts of I1.

We still need many more samples to get a clearer picture, especially on a subregional level. I think the high percentage of I1 in Arcadia will eventually lower down with more sampling, but I don't think its a coincidence that what we have so far paints a picture of I1 being strongly represented in Arcadia.

Like I said I don't know where those Greeks are mostly from. And it wouldn't be surprising if I1 is at least 5% in mainland or especially Northern parts of Greece. In neighboring Bulgaria, North Macedonia and Albania it's around 5% or higher.

Kelmendasi
05-10-2020, 08:26 PM
That shows J2b I took it off my friends profile he's J2b1a (J-Y101509)

And like I said...J2a J2b ( it really doesn't matter anyway ) is really just coastal and has a different migrational route, for the reasons I have stated in my previous posts, more than anything else it seemed to skipped the Red Sea ( Ancient Egyptian ) part before migrating off in different directions.
I have my doubts, but if so then it's an incorrect map.

We cannot compare J2a and J2b as they both have different histories and distributions despite both being clusters under J2 (M172). The vast majority of the J2b in Europe belongs to L283, the evidence that we have so far does not support a coastal or sea route for this clade. There are multiple threads on this topic on the Y-DNA J sub-forum.

J Man
05-10-2020, 08:28 PM
Ok sure maybe. But I know it has R1b that's for certain.

It is not a maybe...It is a for sure.

J Man
05-10-2020, 08:30 PM
Interesting that the haplogroup frequency is so different to the Greeks that I match. Among my matches, J2a is by far the most common haplogroup, and E-V13 is only around the 10% frequency, less than even R1a. But even the stats shown here show some big differences even in nearby areas, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

Do you match with any Maniots?

23abc
05-10-2020, 08:31 PM
That shows J2b I took it off my friends profile he's J2b1a (J-Y101509)

And like I said...J2a J2b ( it really doesn't matter anyway ) is really just coastal and has a different migrational route, for the reasons I have stated in my previous posts, more than anything else it seemed to skipped the Red Sea ( Ancient Egyptian ) part before migrating off in different directions.

None of my (Greek) matches actually have J2b, so I doubt that J2a and J2b were spread the same way...

Also, Y-DNA will be different in each area. For example, in Kalymnos, the G1 haplogroup G-CTS11562 is found in over 50 of my Kalymnian matches, covering over 25 different surnames. And no non-Kalymnian seems to have this haplogroup, just an example of extreme regional variance.

J Man
05-10-2020, 08:34 PM
That shows J2b I took it off my friends profile he's J2b1a (J-Y101509)

And like I said...J2a J2b ( it really doesn't matter anyway ) is really just coastal and has a different migrational route, for the reasons I have stated in my previous posts, more than anything else it seemed to skipped the Red Sea ( Ancient Egyptian ) part before migrating off in different directions.

Today J2a reaches maximum frequencies in two non-coastal mountain populations.

Kelmendasi
05-10-2020, 08:38 PM
Have your doubts you can contact the guy on FB if I give his profile to you in private. I am pretty sure J2 both A and B had a similar migrational route aka it did not go down the ancient Egyptian route before the Balkan tour, okay? :)
I have my doubts as I am aware of the frequency of J2b-M102 as a whole.. The map also looks like another version of the J2 map from Eupedia:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

For the most part, J2a and J2b did not have similar migration routes. If you want we could discuss this on another thread or in private, just so that we do not derail the thread.

J Man
05-10-2020, 08:39 PM
Interesting, thanks!

They live in the Caucasus.

Sorcelow
05-11-2020, 06:15 PM
Something that I found interesting is the presence of R1b-L51 among the samples I currently have. While only four samples carry this haplogroup, I am wondering how it entered Greece.

Since this haplogroup is mostly associated with Western Europeans, I would think that it entered Greece relatively recently, perhaps with Italic peoples or Franks. At the same time, if I recall correctly, a Mycenaean sample has been identified as most likely L51.

Michalis Moriopoulos
05-11-2020, 06:39 PM
I'ad guess most of that L51 is from Proto-Greeks. I associate R1a in Greece with Slavs but a small portion of it might have come with proto-Greeks, too, especially since it appears in Cyprus.

Sorcelow
05-11-2020, 06:46 PM
I'ad guess most of that L51 is from Proto-Greeks. I associate R1a in Greece with Slavs but a small portion of it might have come with proto-Greeks, too, especially since it appears in Cyprus.

I would think that Z2103 would be the dominant haplogroup among the steppe group that brought the Greek language to Greece, but it would be naive to think that they didn't carry other haplogroups as well. L51 may very well have been one of them.

Dibran
05-11-2020, 06:52 PM
Something that I found interesting is the presence of R1b-L51 among the samples I currently have. While only four samples carry this haplogroup, I am wondering how it entered Greece.

Since this haplogroup is mostly associated with Western Europeans, I would think that it entered Greece relatively recently, perhaps with Italic peoples or Franks. At the same time, if I recall correctly, a Mycenaean sample has been identified as most likely L51.

Interesting. I was only aware of the J2a Mycenaen. If one is really L51, perhaps not all L51 in neighboring Albanians is from the West. Of course only full resolution tests can clarify this differentiation.

Kelmendasi
05-11-2020, 06:55 PM
Something that I found interesting is the presence of R1b-L51 among the samples I currently have. While only four samples carry this haplogroup, I am wondering how it entered Greece.

Since this haplogroup is mostly associated with Western Europeans, I would think that it entered Greece relatively recently, perhaps with Italic peoples or Franks. At the same time, if I recall correctly, a Mycenaean sample has been identified as most likely L51.
Do you know what subclade they come under?

On the Greek DNA Project I see that some of the L51 belongs to groups that should have arrived later, such as U106 and DF27. Though I also do see that there is a R-L52 sample, not sure if he is basal or not. There is a basal R-L52 (-L151) Albanian, so maybe this line arrived earlier.

Sorcelow
05-11-2020, 06:56 PM
Interesting. I was only aware of the J2a Mycenaen. If one is really L51, perhaps not all L51 in neighboring Albanians is from the West. Of course only full resolution tests can clarify this differentiation.

It hasn't been confirmed 100%, but Generalissimo certainly seems to believe it is L51. See post 823 in the thread below.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11538-Genetic-origins-of-the-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page83

Dibran
05-11-2020, 06:56 PM
I'ad guess most of that L51 is from Proto-Greeks. I associate R1a in Greece with Slavs but a small portion of it might have come with proto-Greeks, too, especially since it appears in Cyprus.

I think there is a Greek who was M420* in R1a project. Maybe from Thrace or Crete not sure. It is too old to even be Proto Indo European so could be a minority relic.

I think a number of Slavic, Finno Ugric and potentially East Germanic groups could have brought different branches into Greece and the Balkans at varying stages of the late Iron and early middle ages. However full resolution tests are required.

I do have a L1029* match on 23andme from Peloponnese. Though 23andme only checks for YP417. So he could still belong to YP263 or other known branches. However it could also indicate a Greek specific haplotype under L1029.

Though how old none can say without deeper resolution testing. I asked if he was interested in yseq but I think there's a language barrier.

Sorcelow
05-11-2020, 06:59 PM
Do you know what subclade they come under?

On the Greek DNA Project I see that some of the L51 belongs to groups that should have arrived later, such as U106 and DF27. Though I also do see that there is a R-L52 sample, not sure if he is basal or not. There is a basal R-L52 (-L151) Albanian, so maybe this line arrived earlier.

This is all I have

R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>U152
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>P312>U152>L2
R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L52>L151>U106>Z19

Dibran
05-11-2020, 06:59 PM
Do you know what subclade they come under?

On the Greek DNA Project I see that some of the L51 belongs to groups that should have arrived later, such as U106 and DF27. Though I also do see that there is a R-L52 sample, not sure if he is basal or not. There is a basal R-L52 (-L151) Albanian, so maybe this line arrived earlier.

Correct me if I'm wrong but L51 is mostly in Central and Southern Albanians right? And maybe Macedonia? I don't think we have many with it further north.

Kelmendasi
05-11-2020, 07:03 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but L51 is mostly in Central and Southern Albanians right? And maybe Macedonia? I don't think we have many with it further north.
From what I remember there are some U152+ samples from Dibėr, though most of the L51 does seem to come from southwestern Albania.

Dibran
05-11-2020, 07:09 PM
From what I remember there are some U152+ samples from Dibėr, though most of the L51 does seem to come from southwestern Albania.

Very interesting. Perhaps that could be a hint. Assuming they don't match downstream western related branches.

Token
05-11-2020, 07:19 PM
I-M253 at 7.5% was quite a surprise to me. Germanic people surely got around a lot, but i'd say Slavs could also have spread Germanic uniparentals since they lived in close contact with East Germanic peoples in Eastern and Central Europe until the migration period. We see significant amounts of I-M253 at all over Eastern Europe and the Balkans nowadays.

Hawk
05-11-2020, 07:23 PM
I have one relative in 23andme who has ancestry paternally from Anavryti and the rest of his ancestry comes from Katafygio.

He is: R-U152

Sorcelow
05-11-2020, 07:24 PM
I-M253 at 7.5% was quite a surprise to me. Germanic people surely got around a lot, but i'd say Slavs could also have spread Germanic uniparentals since they lived in close contact with East Germanic peoples in Eastern and Central Europe until the migration period. We see significant amounts of I-M253 at all over Eastern Europe and the Balkans nowadays.

The number has lowered to 4.46% with the more samples I received


I have one relative in 23andme paternally from Anavryti and the rest of his ancestry from Katafygio.

He is: R-U152

could you please pm me his surname? That is my mother's village.

Token
05-11-2020, 07:29 PM
I'ad guess most of that L51 is from Proto-Greeks. I associate R1a in Greece with Slavs but a small portion of it might have come with proto-Greeks, too, especially since it appears in Cyprus.

I think Z2103 is a much more secure contender for a Proto-Greek marker since we know Sredny Stog and related groups expanded extensively into the Balkans during the late Copper Age.

Token
05-11-2020, 07:31 PM
The number has lowered to 4.46% with the more samples I received

Got it, makes more sense. Have you found any R1b-U106?

ADW_1981
05-11-2020, 07:33 PM
I-M253 at 7.5% was quite a surprise to me. Germanic people surely got around a lot, but i'd say Slavs could also have spread Germanic uniparentals since they lived in close contact with East Germanic peoples in Eastern and Central Europe until the migration period. We see significant amounts of I-M253 at all over Eastern Europe and the Balkans nowadays.

There was I1 in a singleton of LBK as well as an alleged Etruscan from a forthcoming paper. It was possibly in the northern Balkans prior to the arrival of Germanic speakers, hence why it is found at moderate degree in south Slavs.

Kelmendasi
05-11-2020, 07:40 PM
There was I1 in a singleton of LBK as well as an alleged Etruscan from a forthcoming paper. It was possibly in the northern Balkans prior to the arrival of Germanic speakers, hence why it is found at moderate degree in south Slavs.
The majority of the I1-M253 clusters present among South Slavs and other Balkan populations belong to groups that likely only arrived during the Migration Period, or later during the Medieval period. This is based on the fact that most share common ancestors with other Europeans during those time periods.

Though it would be interesting to see what cluster the Etruscan belongs to, maybe this group is present in the Balkans.

Sorcelow
05-11-2020, 07:44 PM
Got it, makes more sense. Have you found any R1b-U106?

One of the 158 total samples is U106

Token
05-11-2020, 07:44 PM
There was I1 in a singleton of LBK as well as an alleged Etruscan from a forthcoming paper. It was possibly in the northern Balkans prior to the arrival of Germanic speakers, hence why it is found at moderate degree in south Slavs.

Are you talking about the supposedly I1 Etruscan of the Hannah Moots paper? There is only one male Etruscan in this study and he is J2b2. And the LBK 'I1' BAB5 is pre-I1, the MRCA for modern I1 is dated to 4600 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/). All ancient I-M253 samples avaiable are in some way linked to Germanic people and the MRCA points to a founder effect in Late Neolithic or Bronze Age Scandinavia.

Hawk
05-11-2020, 07:53 PM
E-V13-S2979 seems to have presence, it's quite scattered around Europe: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S2979/

xripkan
05-11-2020, 11:00 PM
Is there any R-Z93 among the samples (except mine)?

Johnny ola
05-11-2020, 11:36 PM
Is there any R-Z93 among the samples (except mine)?

In the end you will end up being a mycenean lineager xd.Keep waiting for more mycenean samples :)

23abc
05-12-2020, 12:01 AM
Is there any R-Z93 among the samples (except mine)?

R-Z93 is the most common R1a subclade among my matches, but not sure if any of them are from the Peloponnese.

Sorcelow
05-12-2020, 12:46 AM
Is there any R-Z93 among the samples (except mine)?

You are the only one at this point!

J Man
05-12-2020, 12:44 PM
R-Z93 is the most common R1a subclade among my matches, but not sure if any of them are from the Peloponnese.

Do you have any Maniot matches?

23abc
05-12-2020, 08:19 PM
Do you have any Maniot matches?

Unfortunately my matches are limited mostly to the Dodecanese, Crete and then remaining few from random areas in Greece. I'm slowly gathering the data on my matches a little each day, but at the moment the only Greek match definitely from the Peloponnese is from Sparti and is J-L26. It would be interesting to have Maniot matches, but unfortunately it seems unlikely. I did find a kit on gedmatch who is likely Maniot (A089995), but I'm not 100% certain.

Johnny ola
05-12-2020, 08:48 PM
My match is also from Sparti/Laconia.The guy's name is Avraam Marouthis and we matching together on 67 markers(ftdna).Under the subclade L14.Probably mycenean/minoan or maybe a kura-araxes/bronze age anatolian migration.Kinda east med Haplo/clade witch is founding frequent in Greece and Turkey.

J Man
05-12-2020, 09:32 PM
Unfortunately my matches are limited mostly to the Dodecanese, Crete and then remaining few from random areas in Greece. I'm slowly gathering the data on my matches a little each day, but at the moment the only Greek match definitely from the Peloponnese is from Sparti and is J-L26. It would be interesting to have Maniot matches, but unfortunately it seems unlikely. I did find a kit on gedmatch who is likely Maniot (A089995), but I'm not 100% certain.

Ahhhh ok thanks...The Crete matches sound interesting. Do you know which parts of Crete some of them come from?

23abc
05-12-2020, 11:10 PM
Ahhhh ok thanks...The Crete matches sound interesting. Do you know which parts of Crete some of them come from?

When filtering out those with private information, repeated family members/surnames and those that don't even have haplogroups, the number ends up much smaller than it could be:


YHaplo Paternal Origin
R-L23 Crete
R-U152 Crete
R-M512 Crete
I-BY332 Rethymno, Crete
I-Z26381 Galatas, Crete
J-L26 Hora Sfakion, Crete
J-L26 Emparos, Crete
J-L26 Vamos, Crete
J-M67 Crete
J-M67 Arkalochori, Crete
J-L210 Crete
J-L70 Crete
J-L70 Rethymno, Crete

xripkan
05-13-2020, 03:46 AM
In the end you will end up being a mycenean lineager xd.Keep waiting for more mycenean samples :)

Direct descendant of Proto-Greeks:P
No, even if R-Z93 exists among Proto-Greeks my subclade is more recent and widespread throughout Europe, especially at the Western part. It is from Sarmatian/Alans mercenaries.

xripkan
05-13-2020, 03:47 AM
R-Z93 is the most common R1a subclade among my matches, but not sure if any of them are from the Peloponnese.

You mean among your Greek matches? Which is their subclade?

23abc
05-13-2020, 05:55 AM
You mean among your Greek matches? Which is their subclade?

Yes, Greek matches on 23andme. Unfortunately, didn't see any subclade beneath R-Z93 there, just R-Z93.

xripkan
05-13-2020, 11:42 AM
Yes, Greek matches on 23andme. Unfortunately, didn't see any subclade beneath R-Z93 there, just R-Z93.

Do they mention which Greek region they are from?

Sorcelow
05-13-2020, 04:54 PM
I found another R1b-L51 sample from Achaea through Yfull. More specifically, he is A517*, and is separated from the other individuals who belong to A517 by 3,900 years. It's certainly seems that that proto-Greeks might have carried both L51 and Z2103.

Sorcelow
05-13-2020, 09:36 PM
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/97107816_683413352226253_6596267458175172608_n.png ?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=qqqDslN4HYYAX8Ihbiu&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=5801bc00922fdfd908eb6a66e35edf29&oe=5EE173EC

Comparison with various Albanian groups, from the Albanian project; and Bulgarians.

Kelmendasi
05-13-2020, 11:08 PM
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/97107816_683413352226253_6596267458175172608_n.png ?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=qqqDslN4HYYAX8Ihbiu&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=5801bc00922fdfd908eb6a66e35edf29&oe=5EE173EC

Comparison with various Albanian groups, from the Albanian project; and Bulgarians.
I assume you used the data from here http://rrenjet.com/statistikat/.. The other project site has a larger sample size so I'd advise using that one primarily http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/.

If data from the other site is used:

https://i.postimg.cc/vTctHtkw/image-6.png

vettor
05-14-2020, 12:12 AM
They belong to this subclade
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y29990/
I find more possible they come during Byzantine era.

maybe this T1a1 is Ottoman ..............although venetians had 3% of T

history
Spezzia (Spetse)

Key dates: (due to the lack of historical records some dates are based on evidence related to nearby Egina and Napoli di Romania) :
XIVth century: Venice acquires the island which in ancient times was called Pitiousa: the island is renamed Spezzie or Spezzia, maybe a reference to spezie (spices)
1540: the island is ceded to the Ottomans
1687: the Venetians reoccupy Spezzia
1715: Spetse returns into Ottoman hands.


http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Spetse.html


http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Venezia.html

23abc
05-14-2020, 01:40 AM
Do they mention which Greek region they are from?

None list regions, but judging by admixture proportions and surnames all of them are from the Dodecanese. There are actually 10 unique surnames bearing R-Z93 among my matches, and having a quick search of surnames they should be from Kalymnos, Symi and Rhodes.

xripkan
05-24-2020, 01:57 PM
None list regions, but judging by admixture proportions and surnames all of them are from the Dodecanese. There are actually 10 unique surnames bearing R-Z93 among my matches, and having a quick search of surnames they should be from Kalymnos, Symi and Rhodes.

I find very possible that these R-Z93 subclades came from West Asia.

TonyC
05-24-2020, 06:35 PM
Here's mine paternal side; village of Kokino, Messini, Messinia
G2a2a2~1
G-PF3237 (G-PF3238)

Sorcelow
05-24-2020, 07:46 PM
Here's mine paternal side; village of Kokino, Messini, Messinia
G2a2a2~1
G-PF3237 (G-PF3238)

Thanks, I already had you added

xripkan
05-24-2020, 11:31 PM
Thanks, I already had you added

Do you have any new data?

Sorcelow
05-25-2020, 12:05 AM
Do you have any new data?

Unfortunately, no, I do not.

TonyC
05-25-2020, 11:56 AM
Been trying to get my cousin to test so I can get the Y line on mom’s side.

xripkan
05-25-2020, 12:35 PM
Been trying to get my cousin to test so I can get the Y line on mom’s side.

Can you check the haplogroups of your Peloponnesian matches at 23andme? You can send a PM at Scorcelow or me, with their surname, exact place of origin (if they mention)and haplogroup.

J Man
05-25-2020, 03:58 PM
Can you check the haplogroups of your Peloponnesian matches at 23andme? You can send a PM at Scorcelow or me, with their surname, exact place of origin (if they mention)and haplogroup.

Will be interesting to see if any more Maniots show up.

xripkan
05-25-2020, 04:24 PM
Will be interesting to see if any more Maniots show up.

He is 1/4 Tsakonian so he must have Tsakonian matches.

J Man
05-25-2020, 05:51 PM
He is 1/4 Tsakonian so he must have Tsakonian matches.

Have you been able to find any more Maniots lately?

xripkan
05-28-2020, 10:03 PM
Have you been able to find any more Maniots lately?

Not yet.

xripkan
05-29-2020, 09:29 PM
Unfortunately, no, I do not.

Can you delete some of your messages? I can't pm you.

Sorcelow
05-29-2020, 10:20 PM
Can you delete some of your messages? I can't pm you.

Thanks i just did

Sorcelow
07-17-2020, 11:45 PM
Two more results: A guy from Mani who is J2a-M92, and a guy from Corinth who is I2a-Z17855

xripkan
07-18-2020, 12:25 AM
Two more results: A guy from Mani who is J2a-M92, and a guy from Corinth who is I2a-Z17855

4 out of 5 Maniots are J2a!

J Man
07-20-2020, 01:36 PM
Two more results: A guy from Mani who is J2a-M92, and a guy from Corinth who is I2a-Z17855

I sent you a PM. :)

slavomir
07-20-2020, 04:13 PM
Hopefully, with the contribution of others, This list can be expanded so that we get a more accurate picture of Peloponnesian Y-DNA distributions on a regional level.

I know of a Peloponnesian result with this haplogroup: I-Y3118 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3118/).
maybe you already have it, i'll send you a PM with more info.

J Man
07-20-2020, 04:40 PM
Two more results: A guy from Mani who is J2a-M92, and a guy from Corinth who is I2a-Z17855

Do you from where in Mani this latest J2a-M92 result comes from?

Sorcelow
07-20-2020, 04:45 PM
Do you from where in Mani this latest J2a-M92 result comes from?

Unfortunately, I dont. All I know is that he listed his paternal place of origin on 23andme as "Mani". And to answer the question in your DM, I have 5 Maniot samples, all of which are J2/J2a.

J Man
07-20-2020, 05:09 PM
Unfortunately, I dont. All I know is that he listed his paternal place of origin on 23andme as "Mani". And to answer the question in your DM, I have 5 Maniot samples, all of which are J2/J2a.

Ahhh damn ok thanks. It is very interesting however that so far all 5 of the Maniot results that you know of are J2/J2a. I would really like to see Y-DNA of Maniots with roots from some of the famous tower villages.

gpapailias
07-25-2020, 09:13 PM
Hello all. Good to find this thread. I am the A480* on YFull although my Hg forms further down the line to I-BY98669. I am a descendant of the Kolokotronis clan, specifically from Theodoros’ 1st cousin Antoni. Perhaps of equal interest for this group is that the original last name is Tserginis/Tzortzinis. Kolokotronis is a nickname given to one member and from that one descend all Kolokotronoi. Others kept the name. Those members that I know of (3) all test I-M253.

xripkan
07-25-2020, 09:33 PM
Hello all. Good to find this thread. I am the *A480 on YFull although my Hg forms further down the line to I-BY98669. I am a descendant of the Kolokotronis clan, specifically from Theodoros’ 1st cousin Antoni. More interesting for this group is that the original last name is Tserginis/Tzortzinis. All that I know (3) from separate family lines all test I-M253.

Do you have autosomal results?

Johnny ola
07-25-2020, 09:46 PM
Hello all. Good to find this thread. I am the *A480 on YFull although my Hg forms further down the line to I-BY98669. I am a descendant of the Kolokotronis clan, specifically from Theodoros’ 1st cousin Antoni. More interesting for this group is that the original last name is Tserginis/Tzortzinis. All that I know (3) from separate family lines all test I-M253.

Nice can you tell us more specific where exactly from Greece do you have ancestry?I mean City/Region etc...

gpapailias
07-25-2020, 10:48 PM
Libovisi, Arkoudorema and Alonistaina, Arkadia, Peloponnese, Greece. After the War for Independence (1832), my line and others settled in the village of Ibraim (today’s Trilofo) as well as Karatoulas Arkadia nearby. There is still family there as well as in Megalopoli Arkadia. In the west we would call them Highlanders. The oldest recording of family history begins in 1532 in the village of Roupaki with the patriarch (known through oral and written history) Triantaphyllos Tserginis (Tzortzinis). You can refer to my Facebook page titled The Kolokotronis Clan and Family Tree for more info on the family.

Johnny ola
07-25-2020, 11:04 PM
Libovisi, Arkoudorema and Alonistaina, Arkadia, Peloponnese, Greece. After the War for Independence (1832), my line and others settled in the village of Ibraim (today’s Trilofo) as well as Karatoulas Arkadia nearby. There is still family there as well as in Megalopoli Arkadia. In the west we would call them Highlanders. The oldest recording of family history begins in 1532 in the village of Roupaki with the patriarch (known through oral and written history) Triantaphyllos Tserginis (Tzortzinis). You can refer to my Facebook page titled The Kolokotronis Clan and Family Tree for more info on the family.

Cool do you have any autsomal results to share or something similar?

Johnny ola
07-25-2020, 11:15 PM
Btw i am wondering how this haplogroup founded among Albanians.

gpapailias
07-25-2020, 11:20 PM
No. There is one Aromanian that lives in Albania who is an A480 but no Albanians.

Johnny ola
07-25-2020, 11:31 PM
No. There is one Aromanian that lives in Albania who is an A480 but no Albanians.

It seems Vlacho-Illyrian etc,paleo-balkan lineage probably.Do you have any gedmatch result?Anything about your autosomal profile?

Hawk
07-25-2020, 11:46 PM
It seems Vlacho-Illyrian etc,paleo-balkan lineage probably.Do you have any gedmatch result?Anything about your autosomal profile?

I doubt it's Illyrian. It could be from Gothic migrations. Atleast, that's the pattern i see. The older subclade is found from Poland Carpathian region with TMRCA of 2300 YBP.

Johnny ola
07-26-2020, 12:07 AM
I doubt it's Illyrian. It could be from Gothic migrations. Atleast, that's the pattern i see. The older subclade is found from Poland Carpathian region with TMRCA of 2300 YBP.

Yep it looks Germanic or some mix between paleobalkan folks and goths or something.But it arrived in Greece probably with Arvanites or Aromanians.

Johnny ola
07-26-2020, 12:09 AM
I doubt it's Illyrian. It could be from Gothic migrations. Atleast, that's the pattern i see. The older subclade is found from Poland Carpathian region with TMRCA of 2300 YBP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids

Sorcelow
07-26-2020, 12:10 AM
No. There is one Aromanian that lives in Albania who is an A480 but no Albanians.

I see that there is also a Lakonian who is A480, do you know what your TMRCA with him is?

slavomir
07-26-2020, 10:08 AM
Hello all. Good to find this thread. I am the A480* on YFull although my Hg forms further down the line to I-BY98669. I am a descendant of the Kolokotronis clan, specifically from Theodoros’ 1st cousin Antoni. Perhaps of equal interest for this group is that the original last name is Tserginis/Tzortzinis. Kolokotronis is a nickname given to one member and from that one descend all Kolokotronoi. Others kept the name. Those members that I know of (3) all test I-M253.

one member of the Serbian dna project is A480. His origin is from Kyustendil, Bulgaria.
he is in the subclade FGC66540 together with a couple of Greeks, their common ancestor probably lived in the early medieval period. it isn't on the yfull tree yet.
maybe this helps.

gpapailias
07-28-2020, 08:45 PM
I have submitted my DNA through Ancestry, FamilyTree DNA, and 23andMe. All give a different makeup however, if I combined them altogether it looks like this: the majority of my Autosomal DNA is presented around 75 - 85% Greek/(some) Italian, 15%ish broadly southern European, very small amount Eastern European, very small amount Broadly European. The one in my family I question is my mother's father who was from Kavala, Macedonia, Greece. I didn't know him. He died during WWII and the German occupation of Greece due to starvation/lack of medication in Patras, Greece (along with other members of my mother's family). His last name was Zahariou.

I've also seen different presentations regarding the path of I-M253 and where the Hg I-A480 was formed; one being in the area identified as Illyrian around 300 - 350 AD and the other shows A480 in Constantinople in 350 AD. For certain, my I-BY98669 was in Greece in the early 16th century, probably generations prior as a Ottoman census on the village the family member was living was identified as "all Greek").

Obviously, in both cases there remains too much variation to know for sure. I enjoy hearing the various theories though and the thoughts that go into them. All fascinating. We simply need more data.

One tidbit...all males from the Kolokotronis line, from my immediate branch, have blue/hazel eyes. When I visited Greece and my line of the Kolokotronis family, at least 80% of the family have blue/hazel eyes. For what it's worth. :)

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 08:49 PM
I have submitted my DNA through Ancestry, FamilyTree DNA, and 23andMe. All give a different makeup however, if I combined them altogether it looks like this: the majority 75 - 85% Greek/(some) Italian, 15%ish broadly southern European, Eastern European, Broadly European. The one in my family I question is my mother's father who was from Kavala, Macedonia, Greece. He died during WWII in Patras, Greece. His last name was Zahariou. I've also seen different presentations of where the Hg I-A480 was formed; one being in modern day Slovenia around 300 AD and the other shows A480 in Constantinople in 350 AD. There remains too much variation to know for sure. We simply need more data. One bit of tidbit...all males from the Kolokotronis line, from my immediate branch have blue/hazel eyes. When I visited Greece and my line of the Kolokotronis family, at least 80% of the family had blue/hazel eyes. For what it's worth.

You should share with us some of your autosomal results.Can you link your k13 and k15 from your gedmatch results?You can also buy coordinates from the G25 store at Eurogenes.com!!!!

Aspar
07-28-2020, 09:01 PM
I have submitted my DNA through Ancestry, FamilyTree DNA, and 23andMe. All give a different makeup however, if I combined them altogether it looks like this: the majority 75 - 85% Greek/(some) Italian, 15%ish broadly southern European, Eastern European, Broadly European. The one in my family I question is my mother's father who was from Kavala, Macedonia, Greece. He died during WWII in Patras, Greece. His last name was Zahariou. I've also seen different presentations of where the Hg I-A480 was formed; one being in modern day Slovenia around 300 AD and the other shows A480 in Constantinople in 350 AD. There remains too much variation to know for sure. We simply need more data. One bit of tidbit...all males from the Kolokotronis line, from my immediate branch have blue/hazel eyes. When I visited Greece and my line of the Kolokotronis family, at least 80% of the family had blue/hazel eyes. For what it's worth.

Judging by your ydna can we assume that historically the "Albanian" element was deeply exaggerated in Peloponnese and Greece and the population that the Greeks called Arvanites wasn't exactly of the modern Albanian extraction but more Tosk-Aromanian like?
Because I read about you that you are in a cluster with an Aromanian from Albania not ethnic Albanians?
Plus on YFULL there is a Bulgarian as a match of yours in the last 1700 years and more upstream match is located in Poland.
This somehow reminds myself of the Gothic migration through Poland and the Wielbark culture through Chernyakhov culture on the eastern side of the Black Sea and into the Roman Empire.
Does your family have any clues for other origins than Greek one?

Greekscholar
07-28-2020, 09:05 PM
You should share with us some of your autosomal results.Can you link your k13 and k15 from your gedmatch results?You can also buy coordinates from the G25 store at Eurogenes.com!!!!

I'll second this. Post some A-DNA results and lots of people will come join the discussion. Get G25 coordinates, and we will keep you occupied and entertained for several days. :)

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 09:11 PM
I'll second this. Post some A-DNA results and lots of people will come join the discussion. Get G25 coordinates, and we will keep you occupied and entertained for several days. :)

Kolokotronis was probably the major figure during Greek Ιndependence,anything related to him is very acceptable.Τhought i am pretty sure that he was genetically somewhere between south albanians and mainland greeks.

Sorcelow
07-28-2020, 09:18 PM
Judging by your ydna can we assume that historically the "Albanian" element was deeply exaggerated in Peloponnese and Greece and the population that the Greeks called Arvanites wasn't exactly of the modern Albanian extraction but more Tosk-Aromanian like?
Because I read about you that you are in a cluster with an Aromanian from Albania not ethnic Albanians?
Plus on YFULL there is a Bulgarian as a match of yours in the last 1700 years and more upstream match is located in Poland.
This somehow reminds myself of the Gothic migration through Poland and the Wielbark culture through Chernyakhov culture on the eastern side of the Black Sea and into the Roman Empire.
Does your family have any clues for other origins than Greek one?

Your theory may very well be true, - in fact, I am a proponent of the idea that the groups who migrated to the Peloponnese from Epirus/Southern Albania were an amalgamation of peoples speaking Albanian, Greek, and Aromanian, but I don't think any implications can be made based on there also being an A480 Aromanian from Albania, especially if his common ancestor with Tony lived before 700-800 years ago.

There is also an A480 Lakonian, whose common ancestor with the Arcadian branch that Tony belongs to lived around 1700 years ago. That makes me think that A480 could have been brought to the Peloponnese with Gothic or Slavic speaking peoples, well before Arvanites made their journey south. Of course, this is speculation, and more resolution is needed before coming to a conclusion.

Kelmendasi
07-28-2020, 09:23 PM
Judging by your ydna can we assume that historically the "Albanian" element was deeply exaggerated in Peloponnese and Greece and the population that the Greeks called Arvanites wasn't exactly of the modern Albanian extraction but more Tosk-Aromanian like?
Because I read about you that you are in a cluster with an Aromanian from Albania not ethnic Albanians?
Plus on YFULL there is a Bulgarian as a match of yours in the last 1700 years and more upstream match is located in Poland.
This somehow reminds myself of the Gothic migration through Poland and the Wielbark culture through Chernyakhov culture on the eastern side of the Black Sea and into the Roman Empire.
Does your family have any clues for other origins than Greek one?
What do you mean by "more Tosk-Aromanian like"? As far as historical evidence is concerned, there for sure was a mass migration of Albanian-speakers into the Peloponnese and other regions of Greece. These groups were also at times accompanied by Aromanians from Albania hence the so-called "Arvanitovlachs" (αρβανιτοβλαχοι), but I think it would be a stretch to say that the bulk of the Arvanites was actually made up of bilingual Aromanians. When you look into anthroponyms for example, typical Albanian personal names are used.

There are also Y-DNA clusters in Greece today that are without a doubt of Albanian input, one great example is R-Z2705. However I should mention that the Albanian input doesn't seem to me to be as significant or common as some Albanian nationalists would like to claim.

Aspar
07-28-2020, 09:37 PM
What do you mean by "more Tosk-Aromanian like"? As far as historical evidence is concerned, there for sure was a mass migration of Albanian-speakers into the Peloponnese and other regions of Greece. These groups were also at times accompanied by Aromanians from Albania hence the so-called "Arvanitovlachs" (αρβανιτοβλαχοι), but I think it would be a stretch to say that the bulk of the Arvanites was actually made up of bilingual Aromanians. When you look into anthroponyms for example, typical Albanian personal names are used.

There are also Y-DNA clusters in Greece today that are without a doubt of Albanian input, one great example is R-Z2705. However I should mention that the Albanian input doesn't seem to me to be as significant or common as some Albanian nationalists would like to claim.

I acknowledge the Albanian element that migrated there. I just meant that the Greeks called these people under one name 'Arvanites' because they migrated from the area of medieval Arbanon. But they were not only Albanian Tosks but also probably Aromanian people as well.

Kelmendasi
07-28-2020, 09:38 PM
I have a new match on 23andme from the Peloponnese, interestingly he is only classified as E-M78:

E-M78 - Vouno, Arcadia, Greece

Kelmendasi
07-28-2020, 09:42 PM
I acknowledge the Albanian element that migrated there. I just meant that the Greeks called these people under one name 'Arvanites' because they migrated from the area of medieval Arbanon. But they were not only Albanian Tosks but also probably Aromanian people as well.
Yeah, I do certainly think that some of the Aromanian groups that migrated alongside the Albanians were also called "Arvanites" or Arvanitovlachs" due to the geographic location that they were migrating from. But I do not think there is enough evidence suggesting that the bulk was actually made up by them.

Aspar
07-28-2020, 09:43 PM
Your theory may very well be true, - in fact, I am a proponent of the idea that the groups who migrated to the Peloponnese from Epirus/Southern Albania were an amalgamation of peoples speaking Albanian, Greek, and Aromanian, but I don't think any implications can be made based on there also being an A480 Aromanian from Albania, especially if his common ancestor with Tony lived before 700-800 years ago.

There is also an A480 Lakonian, whose common ancestor with the Arcadian branch that Tony belongs to lived around 1700 years ago. That makes me think that A480 could have been brought to the Peloponnese with Gothic or Slavic speaking peoples, well before Arvanites made their journey south. Of course, this is speculation, and more resolution is needed before coming to a conclusion.

I believe that it was the Goths because I see there is a diversity down the line in the last 1700 years concentrated in the Balkans, two separate lines in Greece alone with tmrca 1700 ybp. That corresponds with the time the Goths were around the borders of the Empire around 200-300 AD. Plus the cousins in Slovenia could well be descendants from either the Visigoths who passed from there on their way to Italy or the Ostrogoths who were also present in that area and even longer than the Visigoths.

Greekscholar
07-28-2020, 09:46 PM
Kolokotronis was probably the major figure during Greek Ιndependence,anything related to him is very acceptable.Τhought i am pretty sure that he was genetically somewhere between south albanians and mainland greeks.

Yes, I have been reading up about that family's travels after seeing this poster arrive. There is a Facebook page dedicated to Kolokotronis and his family that discusses where the male line came from. It is very interesting.

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 09:57 PM
Yes, I have been reading up about that family's travels after seeing this poster arrive. There is a Facebook page dedicated to Kolokotronis and his family that discusses where the male line came from. It is very interesting.

Whatever his ancesty was,( i believe he was South Albanian/Arvanite actually,looking his face with his Dinaric view) we owe a lot to him.Glory to this man and Jesus Christ bless his soul!!!!!!

Aspar
07-28-2020, 10:02 PM
Whatever his ancesty was,( i believe he was South Albanian/Arvanite actually,looking his face with his Dinaric view) we owe a lot to him.Glory to this man and Jesus Christ bless his soul!!!!!!

Although anthropologically wise we are not allowed to discuss those characteristics here what you describe as such a look is present all over the Balkans and not only South Albania. Also although the person who is his descendant still hasn't replied, he clearly clusters with Aromanians, not Tosks. Looks may lie, dna not.

Hawk
07-28-2020, 10:09 PM
Suliotes for instance, who migrated in Greece were originally Gheg.

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 10:14 PM
Although anthropologically wise we are not allowed to discuss those characteristics here what you describe as such a look is present all over the Balkans and not only South Albania. Also although the person who is his descendant still hasn't replied, he clearly clusters with Aromanians, not Tosks. Looks may lie, dna not.

You are right about the looks and the majority of Greeks witch such a profile have definitely balkanic origins,but Arvanitovlachs arrived in mainland together in many parts like Thessaly,Attica,Central Greece even down to Peloponnese etc.It is hard to tell if this clade has Albanian or Aromanian/Vlach origins but in the end whats the big diffrence genetically between Vlachs especially 'Aromanians' and Albanians and more specific 'Tosks'?I think there was a culturall assilimation of Aromanians into the Albanian/Arvanite genepool.Also i would say that the Slavic influences among Albanians and Mainland Greeks are not 100% coming from pure Slavs but also populations similar to Aromanians etc.It is well known that Vlachs have been mixed with Slavs and other barbarians during the periods.

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 10:18 PM
Suliotes for instance, who migrated in Greece were originally Gheg.

Not really.They were actually Arvanites.Suliotes were probably between Illyrians and Epirote Greeks in terms of culture,Identity and even genetically.

Bruzmi
07-28-2020, 10:19 PM
I acknowledge the Albanian element that migrated there. I just meant that the Greeks called these people under one name 'Arvanites' because they migrated from the area of medieval Arbanon. But they were not only Albanian Tosks but also probably Aromanian people as well.

Greeks called them Arvanites/Alvanites or just plainly Alvanoi - all terms meant Albanians without any distinction at that time. Greeks also distinguished Aromanians from Albanians and called them Vlachoi and even had terms like Arvanitovlachoi/Alvanitovlachoi for groups with shared Albanian-Aromanian ancestry or groups of Aromanians that passed through Albania in their journey towards Greece. There's a few such clans in Thessaly. Byzantine and post-Byzantine terminology is very specific about each community. There's no confusion in the terminology used in post-Byzantine Greece. Albanians in the Peloponnese came under agreements which they made with the Venetians. These were basically contracts that specific Albanian fis-clans signed with the Venetians. But there's no Aromanian clan in any historical document in the Peloponnese that came with the Albanian migrations.

That doesn't mean that Vlachs didn't settle in the Peloponnese at all. But these were small groups that did so in the Ottoman era and were never mistaken as Albanian clans or Greeks.

Without any further Y-DNA research, there's simply no way to know whether the lineage of Kolokotronis entered Greece as Albanian, Aromanian or anything else. I could equally say that it entered Greece via an old Gothic lineage and it can be neither proved or disproved. The fact that a match comes up in Vlach sample in Albania doesn't provide much information in terms of geography, because most Vlachs in Albania settled down in a very late period, some after WWII.

Just like in other discussions we've had in the Albanian DNA Project thread: more samples are needed.

Hawk
07-28-2020, 10:23 PM
Not really.They were actually Arvanites.Suliotes were probably between Illyrians and Epirote Greeks in terms of culture,Identity and even genetically.

Their proxy origin is South Albania/Epirus, but ultimately they seem to come from regions around Kruja. Atleast, so i was told by a Suliot himself.

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 10:30 PM
Their proxy origin is South Albania/Epirus, but ultimately they seem to come from regions around Kruja. Atleast, so i was told by a Suliot himself.

I am not sure about it, but it might be true.Thought most Greeks used to call them or to consider them as Arvanites.Souli in general was the meeting point between Northwest Greeks and Illyrians,it is very likely during the periods to influenced each other(Hellenization/Albanization etc).

Aspar
07-28-2020, 10:30 PM
You are right about the looks and the majority of Greeks witch such a profile have definitely balkanic origins,but Arvanitovlachs arrived in mainland together in many parts like Thessaly,Attica,Central Greece even down to Peloponnese etc.It is hard to tell if this clade has Albanian or Aromanian/Vlach origins but in the end whats the big diffrence genetically between Vlachs especially 'Aromanians' and Albanians and more specific 'Tosks'?I think there was a culturall assilimation of Aromanians into the Albanian/Arvanite genepool.Also i would say that the Slavic influences among Albanians and Mainland Greeks are not 100% coming from pure Slavs but also populations similar to Aromanians etc.It is well known that Vlachs have been mixed with Slavs and other barbarians during the periods.

There was a cultural assimilation of Aromanians in almost every ethnicity in the Balkans actually. I should know this better believe me.
Also for the similarity of the Aromanians and the Albanians I wouldn't be so sure because many ydna lineages that we find in people of Aromanian descent don't correspond at all with the Albanian lineages. Most of them are distant with thousands of years. For example I don't have an Albanian cousin at all in my own subclade. It seems that the ancient origins of the Albanians and the Aromanians in regard of ancient people(Illyrians, Thracians etc.) were not that closely related.

Moldovlah
07-28-2020, 10:33 PM
There was a cultural assimilation of Aromanians in almost every ethnicity in the Balkans actually. I should know this better believe me.
Also for the similarity of the Aromanians and the Albanians I wouldn't be so sure because many ydna lineages that we find in people of Aromanian descent don't correspond at all with the Albanian lineages. Most of them are distant with thousands of years. For example I don't have an Albanian cousin at all in my own subclade. It seems that the ancient origins of the Albanians and the Aromanians in regard of ancient people(Illyrians, Thracians etc.) were not that closely related.

Nah, this is false. I can confirm with my knowledge.

TonyC
07-28-2020, 10:34 PM
Was wondering if anyone had any opinions about G2A in the Peloponnese. My paternal grandfather's village was in the mountains West of Petalidi which is a seaport on the Messinian Gulf (opposite side from Mani). This is in the state of Messene and is a very old village (pre Ottoman) as discovered by my uncle who researched the history. Could this lineage be from Italy or would there be a chance that it could be from classical era Messene. I've heard that Petalidi was an Italian settlement.

Aspar
07-28-2020, 10:35 PM
Greeks called them Arvanites/Alvanites or just plainly Alvanoi - all terms meant Albanians without any distinction at that time. Greeks also distinguished Aromanians from Albanians and called them Vlachoi and even had terms like Arvanitovlachoi/Alvanitovlachoi for groups with shared Albanian-Aromanian ancestry or groups of Aromanians that passed through Albania in their journey towards Greece. There's a few such clans in Thessaly. Byzantine and post-Byzantine terminology is very specific about each community. There's no confusion in the terminology used in post-Byzantine Greece. Albanians in the Peloponnese came under agreements which they made with the Venetians. These were basically contracts that specific Albanian fis-clans signed with the Venetians. But there's no Aromanian clan in any historical document in the Peloponnese that came with the Albanian migrations.

That doesn't mean that Vlachs didn't settle in the Peloponnese at all. But these were small groups that did so in the Ottoman era and were never mistaken as Albanian clans or Greeks.

Without any further Y-DNA research, there's simply no way to know whether the lineage of Kolokotronis entered Greece as Albanian, Aromanian or anything else. I could equally say that it entered Greece via an old Gothic lineage and it can be neither proved or disproved. The fact that a match comes up in Vlach sample in Albania doesn't provide much information in terms of geography, because most Vlachs in Albania settled down in a very late period, some after WWII.

Just like in other discussions we've had in the Albanian DNA Project thread: more samples are needed.

I agree that without further y-dna research there's no way to know for certain whether the lineage of Kolokotronis entered Greece as Albanian, Aromanian or anything else as you say but the Albanians are some of the most tested people in the Balkans and if this lineage is not found in them that speaks volumes. On the other hand very few people of Aromanian descent are tested and even that are, as few as they are show matches with Kolokotronis.

As for the Aromanians, I think they were quite present in the area of Korce long before WW2?

Sorcelow
07-28-2020, 10:36 PM
Was wondering if anyone had any opinions about G2A in the Peloponnese. My paternal grandfather's village was in the mountains West of Petalidi which is a seaport on the Messinian Gulf (opposite side from Mani). This is in the state of Messene and is a very old village (pre Ottoman) as discovered by my uncle who researched the history. Could this lineage be from Italy or would there be a chance that it could be from classical era Messene.

Do you currently have any matches? I would speculate that your branch of G2 could have a very old presence in the Peloponnese, brought by neolithic Anatolian farmers.

Moldovlah
07-28-2020, 10:36 PM
Greek Macedonia is most heterogeneous in all the Europe.

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 10:40 PM
There was a cultural assimilation of Aromanians in almost every ethnicity in the Balkans actually. I should know this better believe me.
Also for the similarity of the Aromanians and the Albanians I wouldn't be so sure because many ydna lineages that we find in people of Aromanian descent don't correspond at all with the Albanian lineages. Most of them are distant with thousands of years. For example I don't have an Albanian cousin at all in my own subclade. It seems that the ancient origins of the Albanians and the Aromanians in regard of ancient people(Illyrians, Thracians etc.) were not that closely related.

In terms of autosomal DNA i really doubt Aromanians would have been very different from Albanians in general.Probably more Steppe/WHG admixture in the former but still IMO the major component would have been EEF.Btw i would like to mention that Vlachs/Aromanians have a long history to the Greek peninsula and not only.Many Byzantine Emperors/Generals were actually of Thraco-Roman,Daco-Roman,Illyro-Roman etc origins....so we have to do with a really ancient and historical ethnic group.I am also a big supporter of the theory that these EV13 lineages across balkans arrived with them at the majority but i might be wrong who knows.

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 10:43 PM
Greek Macedonia is most heterogeneous in all the Europe.

What you mean?

Moldovlah
07-28-2020, 10:45 PM
What you mean?

Exactly what I wrote.

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 10:46 PM
Exactly what I wrote.

What you wrote it is exactly nonsense.Be more specific.. heterogeneous in what?

Bruzmi
07-28-2020, 10:52 PM
Not really.They were actually Arvanites.Suliotes were probably between Illyrians and Epirote Greeks in terms of culture,Identity and even genetically.

This thread is about the Peloponnese, so I would prefer it if we stayed in topic - but allow me to make a very brief comment. Arvanites is just the medieval Greek name for Albanians. Albanians from Shkodra were called Arvanites in medieval and even 19th-century Greek, the distinction in terminology within the Greek language is a very recent 20th century linguistic attitude driven by politics.

The Suliotic tribal confederation begins to appear in the 17th century. So, there were no "Suliotes" in general, but clans that formed the Suliotic confederation. The clans that formed it and have been "catalogued", all were Albanian - that of course has nothing to do with how modern descendants may identify 200 years after its dissolution, so we shouldn't view ancestry in terms of politics. I'm pointing this out not in order to start a discussion about ethnicity but in order to point out that in terms of methodology, it is completely wrong to discuss about the Suliotes as a generic population group instead of tribes/clans and the ancestry of each clan - just like we do about the tribes/pleme of Montenegro and Albania.

Most of these small Albanian tribes came from various areas of southern Albania. So, most didn't come from the north. There is however one fis that did settle there from the north. That is the Mataeoi or Mataioi who came from the Mati river in northern Albania.

Also, allow me to say that this is a forum dedicated to actual research, so we shouldn't be making sweeping claims about what X or Y group was "genetically" since no studies exist regarding said group. This discussion reminds me of a similar one about the Kuci tribe in Montenegro (which turned out to be E-V13) and sweeping claims that existed about their origins without any actual research to back them up. When the results came in, all of these claims were debunked. The lesson most people learned was that if we actually want to argue about genomics, then we should do the grunt work and get adequate sampling. Then, we can interpret those results and reach conclusions. :)

TonyC
07-28-2020, 10:55 PM
Do you currently have any matches? I would speculate that your branch of G2 could have a very old presence in the Peloponnese, brought by neolithic Anatolian farmers.

You mean Italian? No. All my relatively close matches are either Greek or Albanian. Yes I'm thinking that you're probably right based on the location of the village (mountainous), the history, etc.

Moldovlah
07-28-2020, 10:58 PM
What you wrote it is exactly nonsense.Be more specific.. heterogeneous in what?

Heterogenous=most mixed, in terms of genetics.

The truth is not always to be like by everyone, although is still the truth.

Sorcelow
07-28-2020, 10:59 PM
You mean Italian? No. All my relatively close matches are either Greek or Albanian. Yes I'm thinking that you're probably right based on the location of the village (mountainous), the history, etc.

I mean y dna matches in general.

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 11:00 PM
Heterogenous=most mixed, in terms of genetics.

The truth is not always to be like by everyone, although is still the truth.

Well,Greek Macedonians are not that different from your people.They are heavily slavicized like Moldovans actually.But you are wrong in Europe Sicilians are by far the most heterogenous.

Moldovlah
07-28-2020, 11:05 PM
Well,Greek Macedonians are not that different from your people.They are heavily slavicized like Moldovans actually.But you are wrong in Europe Sicilians are by far the most heterogenous.

No Greeks Macedonia, most heterogenous, they are Middle Eastern, Italian, Turkish, Albanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, and that is tip of iceberg.

Sorcelow
07-28-2020, 11:06 PM
No Greeks Macedonia, most heterogenous, they are Middle Eastern, Italian, Turkish, Albanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, and that is tip of iceberg.

Can you please stop polluting my thread? This is a space to talk about the Y-DNA of the Peloponnese, and nothing else.

Johnny ola
07-28-2020, 11:08 PM
No Greeks Macedonia, most heterogenous, they are Middle Eastern, Italian, Turkish, Albanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, and that is tip of iceberg.

Ethnicity=Neo-Ottomanist okay got it...

Moldovlah
07-28-2020, 11:09 PM
Can you please stop polluting my thread? This is a space to talk about the Y-DNA of the Peloponnese, and nothing else.

I will make my own thread to discuss.

Bruzmi
07-28-2020, 11:09 PM
Can you please stop polluting my thread? This is a space to talk about the Y-DNA of the Peloponnese, and nothing else.

+1

I find this thread very interesting because the little that I know almost exclusively has to do with the medieval Albanian migrations, so it's very interesting to learn about the inhabitants of the Peloponnese from the perspective of the people that already lived there.

xripkan
07-29-2020, 06:03 PM
I acknowledge the Albanian element that migrated there. I just meant that the Greeks called these people under one name 'Arvanites' because they migrated from the area of medieval Arbanon. But they were not only Albanian Tosks but also probably Aromanian people as well.

Which is the genetic difference between an Albanian Tosk and an Arvanitovlach/Aromanian from Albania? Do they belong to different clusters? Maybe I am wrong but I have the impression these two groups are not distinct in genetic terms.

Aspar
07-29-2020, 08:26 PM
Which is the genetic difference between an Albanian Tosk and an Arvanitovlach/Aromanian from Albania? Do they belong to different clusters? Maybe I am wrong but I have the impression these two groups are not distinct in genetic terms.

No, what I meant was their y-dna lines. Of course there could have been mixing between them but it seems mostly female related. Their y-dna lines seem distant between each other.

xripkan
07-29-2020, 08:44 PM
So the autosomal analysis is the same between these two groups? And which is the difference on their ydna lines?

Aspar
07-29-2020, 09:27 PM
So the autosomal analysis is the same between these two groups? And which is the difference on their ydna lines?

They shouldn't drastically differ autosomally...
As for y-dna they have differences. For example if the Aromanians were just Romanised Albanians they should had similar y-dna with the Albanians and form subclades however that's not really the case most of the times from what I've seen so far many Aromanian lineages are distant from Albanian ones 4000+ years before present.

xripkan
07-29-2020, 09:32 PM
They shouldn't drastically differ autosomally...
As for y-dna they have differences. For example if the Aromanians were just Romanised Albanians they should had similar y-dna with the Albanians and form subclades however that's not really the case most of the times from what I've seen so far many Aromanian lineages are distant from Albanian ones 4000+ years before present.

Would you say that Aromanians are native Balkan people genetically close to Albanians and occasionally mixed with them? Which are the typical ydna lines for Aromanians?

Aspar
07-29-2020, 09:54 PM
Would you say that Aromanians are native Balkan people genetically close to Albanians and occasionally mixed with them? Which are the typical ydna lines for Aromanians?

Well they might have something Italic in them that might have came with the Romans, Slavic as well and probably Germanic from the late antiquity and early medieval migrations but mostly are of Balkan stock.

As for lineages, some of the Aromanian ones are:
R-FGC75224 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC75224/)
J-PH4679* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679*/)
J-Z39726* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z39726*/)

And most represented cluster of E-V13 among them seem to be my own E-Y16729* cluster

xripkan
07-29-2020, 10:20 PM
Well they might have something Italic in them that might have came with the Romans, Slavic as well and probably Germanic from the late antiquity and early medieval migrations but mostly are of Balkan stock.

As for lineages, some of the Aromanian ones are:
R-FGC75224 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC75224/)
J-PH4679* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679*/)
J-Z39726* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z39726*/)

And most represented cluster of E-V13 among them seem to be my own E-Y16729* cluster

Even their ydna lines indicate genetic proximity to Albanians. What I have noticed looking at some Aromanian results is that they do not have a distinct genetic profile. They seem a Balkanic people but some of them are close to Bulgarians while others close to Albanians or even identical to them.

J Man
07-30-2020, 12:35 AM
Well they might have something Italic in them that might have came with the Romans, Slavic as well and probably Germanic from the late antiquity and early medieval migrations but mostly are of Balkan stock.

As for lineages, some of the Aromanian ones are:
R-FGC75224 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC75224/)
J-PH4679* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679*/)
J-Z39726* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z39726*/)

And most represented cluster of E-V13 among them seem to be my own E-Y16729* cluster

I remember seeing 3 or 4 Y-DNA haplogroup J2a Aromanian samples in the Albanian DNA Project in the past. They are gone now though unfortunately.

gpapailias
07-30-2020, 07:51 PM
Thank you for the compliment regarding my Facebook page "The Kolokotronis Clan and Family Tree". I am the site administrator. To the individual who asked if I knew of anyone in my family that may have been something other than Greek, the answer is no. My father's paternal and maternal side (Kolokotronis/Pappailiopoulos) are from the same areas in Arkadia for as far back as I know. As for my mother (T1a1) her mothers side was from Kalavryta/Kertezi. My maternal grandmother married Christos Zahariou from Kavala, Macedonia, Greece. I know very little about him or where the family was from generations ago. Anything that indicates a general southeastern Europe or Eastern Europe genetics I wonder about his background. I do know he spoke Turkish but that might have been because during the turn of the 20th century that area was made up of many types of Balkan people as well as Turks until the population exchanges occurred.

Bruzmi
07-30-2020, 08:20 PM
Thank you for the compliment regarding my Facebook page "The Kolokotronis Clan and Family Tree". I am the site administrator. To the individual who asked if I knew of anyone in my family that may have been something other than Greek, the answer is no. My father's paternal and maternal side (Kolokotronis/Pappailiopoulos) are from the same areas in Arkadia for as far back as I know. As for my mother (T1a1) her mothers side was from Kalavryta/Kertezi. My maternal grandmother married Christos Zahariou from Kavala, Macedonia, Greece. I know very little about him or where the family was from generations ago. Anything that indicates a general southeastern Europe or Eastern Europe genetics I wonder about his background. I do know he spoke Turkish but that might have been because during the turn of the 20th century that area was made up of many types of Balkan people as well as Turks until the population exchanges occurred.

Hello, I've read the thread but I'm a bit confused as to what was the original surname of the Kolokotronis clan. If I understand correctly, Pappailiopoulos is a branch of that clan. Maybe the surname could be used to search for the clan in old Ottoman/Venetian registers.

TonyC
07-30-2020, 08:44 PM
Thank you for the compliment regarding my Facebook page "The Kolokotronis Clan and Family Tree". I am the site administrator. To the individual who asked if I knew of anyone in my family that may have been something other than Greek, the answer is no. My father's paternal and maternal side (Kolokotronis/Pappailiopoulos) are from the same areas in Arkadia for as far back as I know. As for my mother (T1a1) her mothers side was from Kalavryta/Kertezi. My maternal grandmother married Christos Zahariou from Kavala, Macedonia, Greece. I know very little about him or where the family was from generations ago. Anything that indicates a general southeastern Europe or Eastern Europe genetics I wonder about his background. I do know he spoke Turkish but that might have been because during the turn of the 20th century that area was made up of many types of Balkan people as well as Turks until the population exchanges occurred.

My paternal grandmother was from a now non existent village called Paneyeka in the mountains West of Petalidi, Messinia. She was born in 1888 and her great grandfather fought with Kolokotronis or Stamatiopoulos during the War of Independence and their family was awarded land (by Kolokotronis) which became the village Paneyeka. Could something like that have been possible. I'm going to Greece in a year or so to research the family lineage. I'm not sure where her family was from prior to the revolution I've heard Tripolis but my dad (who is now deceased) seemed to believe they were from Epirus.

J Man
07-30-2020, 10:31 PM
I was not aware that Arcadia had a "clan" system. I thought that the only area of Greece that had what resembles a clan or tribal like system was Mani and possibly parts of Crete.

TonyC
07-30-2020, 10:37 PM
I was not aware that Arcadia had a "clan" system. I thought that the only area of Greece that had what resembles a clan or tribal like system was Mani and possibly parts of Crete.

Oh heck no clans existed all over Greece. My paternal grandfather left Messinia, Greece after the Balkan war due to a revenge vendetta incident.

Greekscholar
07-30-2020, 11:12 PM
Oh heck no clans existed all over Greece. My paternal grandfather left Messinia, Greece after the Balkan war due to a revenge vendetta incident.

That's the story my great-aunt came back from Fourni with in the 1970s:

The first XXXXX on Fourni fled from the Peloponnese with his 5 sons because of a blood feud. The word she used to describe them was "Maniate" which she and my Yiayia translated as "crazy person/wild man." I think those old Fourniotes meant "Mani" as a region, but I have no way to find out now.

Maybe one day we will either DNA or paper trail will confirm or refute this story.

TonyC
07-30-2020, 11:29 PM
That's the story my great-aunt came back from Fourni with in the 1970s:

The first XXXXX on Fourni fled from the Peloponnese with his 5 sons because of a blood feud. The word she used to describe them was "Maniate" which she and my Yiayia translated as "crazy person/wild man." I think those old Fourniotes meant "Mani" as a region, but I have no way to find out now.

Maybe one day we will either DNA or paper trail will confirm or refute this story.

My dad told me about the blood feud in his father's village but I'm not sure who it was between. That's why I need to get back to Greece to uncover these interesting and "alarming" (by today's standards) stories.

Archetype0ne
07-31-2020, 03:06 AM
My dad told me about the blood feud in his father's village but I'm not sure who it was between. That's why I need to get back to Greece to uncover these interesting and "alarming" (by today's standards) stories.

I am not too familiar with Greek culture outside of the basics... So were blood feuds in Greece institutionalized like in Albania with the Kanun? as in codified and well defined by some Canon?
The more I frequent these forums the more similarities I see between the Albanian and Greek culture. I guess to most people language and religion are enough to look at these cultures as mutually exclusive, but comparatively speaking there is a lot in common.

PS: My fathers line left Albania some 7 Generations ago ~200 years due to Blood Feuds. It was a very structured ordeal. As insane as it sounds there was communication between the families in the feud, my ancestors were allowed to sell their land and given the option to migrate in order to end the feud.

TonyC
07-31-2020, 12:18 PM
I am not too familiar with Greek culture outside of the basics... So were blood feuds in Greece institutionalized like in Albania with the Kanun? as in codified and well defined by some Canon?
The more I frequent these forums the more similarities I see between the Albanian and Greek culture. I guess to most people language and religion are enough to look at these cultures as mutually exclusive, but comparatively speaking there is a lot in common.

PS: My fathers line left Albania some 7 Generations ago ~200 years due to Blood Feuds. It was a very structured ordeal. As insane as it sounds there was communication between the families in the feud, my ancestors were allowed to sell their land and given the option to migrate in order to end the feud.

Not sure about that but certainly a good question for me to ask when I go to Greece. My grandfather came to America in 1902 and then returned to Greece to participate in the Balkan War (as well as to marry). He left Greece for good around 1915 so maybe there was a similar "deal" struck between the families.

Sorcelow
08-01-2020, 08:13 PM
Thank you for the compliment regarding my Facebook page "The Kolokotronis Clan and Family Tree". I am the site administrator. To the individual who asked if I knew of anyone in my family that may have been something other than Greek, the answer is no. My father's paternal and maternal side (Kolokotronis/Pappailiopoulos) are from the same areas in Arkadia for as far back as I know. As for my mother (T1a1) her mothers side was from Kalavryta/Kertezi. My maternal grandmother married Christos Zahariou from Kavala, Macedonia, Greece. I know very little about him or where the family was from generations ago. Anything that indicates a general southeastern Europe or Eastern Europe genetics I wonder about his background. I do know he spoke Turkish but that might have been because during the turn of the 20th century that area was made up of many types of Balkan people as well as Turks until the population exchanges occurred.

Unfortunately, the village of Roupaki is not included in the 1462 Ottoman Defter of the Peloponnese. In fact, almost the entirety of both Messinia and Laconia are omitted from the census, I am not sure why.

J Man
08-21-2020, 06:33 PM
Any new Y-DNA results from Mani?

Sorcelow
08-22-2020, 02:31 AM
Any new Y-DNA results from Mani?

Unfortunately no.

Greekscholar
08-29-2020, 07:33 PM
That's the story my great-aunt came back from Fourni with in the 1970s:

The first XXXXX on Fourni fled from the Peloponnese with his 5 sons because of a blood feud. The word she used to describe them was "Maniate" which she and my Yiayia translated as "crazy person/wild man." I think those old Fourniotes meant "Mani" as a region, but I have no way to find out now.

Maybe one day we will either DNA or paper trail will confirm or refute this story.

My cousin, a Y-line descendant of the man mentioned above, just tested positive for A10959. He is now grouped with that gaggle of people from Arcadia on the I2a project page.

We still can't say for sure if this ancestor was from the Pelopennese, but it is looking more and more like it, IMO. We are still looking for that close match in genealogical time to confirm.

Sorcelow
01-08-2021, 02:51 PM
I have some more results:

Sparta, Laconia - R-L23
Sparta, Laconia - E-V13
Sparta, Laconia - E-V13
Sparta, Laconia - E-V13
Sparta, Laconia - J-M267
Sparta, Laconia - J-M172
Sparta, Laconia - I-CTS5966
Sparta, Laconia - R-CTS1843
Aigaelia, Patras - E-V13
Tegea, Arcadia - E-V13
Megalopolis, Arcadia - E-V13
Megalopolis, Arcadia - I-Z17855
Megalopolis, Arcadia - J-Z631
Corinth, Corinthia - R-L21
Corinth, Corinthia - R-CTS241
Kalamata, Messenia - E-V13
Kalamata, Messenia - J-L283
Pylos-Nestoras, Messenia - E-V13
Peloponnese - E-V13
Peloponnese - E-L677
Peloponnese - I-M423

Riverman
01-08-2021, 03:04 PM
I have some more results:

Sparta, Laconia - R-L23
Sparta, Laconia - E-V13
Sparta, Laconia - E-V13
Sparta, Laconia - E-V13
Sparta, Laconia - J-M267
Sparta, Laconia - J-M172
Sparta, Laconia - I-CTS5966
Sparta, Laconia - R-CTS1843
Aigaelia, Patras - E-V13
Tegea, Arcadia - E-V13
Megalopolis, Arcadia - E-V13
Megalopolis, Arcadia - I-Z17855
Megalopolis, Arcadia - J-Z631
Corinth, Corinthia - R-L21
Corinth, Corinthia - R-CTS241
Kalamata, Messenia - E-V13
Kalamata, Messenia - J-L283
Pylos-Nestoras, Messenia - E-V13
Peloponnese - E-V13
Peloponnese - E-L677
Peloponnese - I-M423

I would really like to see more high resolution testing for the E-V13's. We know there is a lot of E-V13 in Greece, but its the subclades which are the most interesting part.

Sorcelow
01-08-2021, 03:09 PM
I would really like to see more high resolution testing for the E-V13's. We know there is a lot of E-V13 in Greece, but its the subclades which are the most interesting part.

Me too. Unfortunately, these were all taken from my father's relatives on 23andme, which doesnt give detailed Y dna info.

Sorcelow
01-19-2021, 01:13 AM
Some more results:

Sparta, Laconia - E-V13
Kalamata, Messenia - J2a-L26
Charakopio, Messenia - E-V13
Sparta, Laconia - J-L283
Gytheio, Laconia - R1b-L23

This brings the number of total samples to 187. We now see our first R1b from Mani and J-L283 from Sparta, respectively.

Sorcelow
01-20-2021, 09:49 PM
Another result from Mani!

Laconian Mani - G-Z29424

J Man
01-21-2021, 06:29 PM
Another result from Mani!

Laconian Mani - G-Z29424

No recent J2a results from Mani eh?

Sorcelow
01-22-2021, 12:29 AM
No recent J2a results from Mani eh?


Nope, nothing new in that department.

peloponnesian
01-23-2021, 10:19 PM
I'm predicted for G2a - L1259 based on the Morley and YSeq Cladefinder tools. Grandpa's from Laconia.

Also, it shows a bunch of negative SNP calls for the L30 clade but I'm not sure if that means I *must* belong to the other clade (PF3147?)

XXD
01-26-2021, 10:39 PM
A few more Maniots who are relatives of my maternal first cousin on 23andme.
Right hand side is Y chromosome, left hand side is mtDNA. I have not included the mtDNA in the cases where the mother is not Maniot:

"Mani" - R-L2/H12
"Mani" - E-V13/L3b1a2
"Mani" - E-V13/H (same surname as above)
"Mani" - E-V13
Gutheio - J2a-L26/Η7
Kardamyli - J-M172

All of these Maniots list Mani as their origin, and all have surnames ending in -eas/-akos. The guy with mtDNA L scores zero SSA. I have seen R-L2 only in a relative of mine from Arcadia, and from a Vlach from Trikala. Any ideas how it got to Greece? Celts/Goths/Slavs? Although one unpublished Mycenaean sample is supposed to be R1b-U106, which is super strange.

A couple of other really strange Peloponnesians, which I thought should be mentioned here:

1) Meligalas, Messinia - L-M22/H5'36

This guy has an extremely rare surname, found only in a few individuals in Messinia and Laconia, and many people in Euboea, so it could ultimately originate from there. No unusual autosomal, at least as indicated by 23andme.

2) Astros (P), Vervena (M), Arcadia - E-M183/D4

This chap also has a very unique surname (Greek etymologically), which is found overwhelmingly in Astros, so it could be Tsakonian in origin. Interesting that the mother is also from Kynouria. Is his paternal origin somehow North African? Mother probably came with the Slavs/Avars.

Sorcelow
01-26-2021, 10:51 PM
A few more Maniots who are relatives of my maternal first cousin on 23andme.
Right hand side is Y chromosome, left hand side is mtDNA. I have not included the mtDNA in the cases where the mother is not Maniot:

"Mani" - R-L2/H12
"Mani" - E-V13/L3b1a2
"Mani" - E-V13/H (same surname as above)
"Mani" - E-V13
Gutheio - J2a-L26/Η7
Kardamyli - J-M172

All of these Maniots list Mani as their origin, and all have surnames ending in -eas/-akos. The guy with mtDNA L scores zero SSA. I have seen R-L2 only in a relative of mine from Arcadia, and from a Vlach from Trikala. Any ideas how it got to Greece? Celts/Goths/Slavs? Although one unpublished Mycenaean sample is supposed to be R1b-U106, which is super strange.

A couple of other really strange Peloponnesians, which I thought should be mentioned here:

1) Meligalas, Messinia - L-M22/H5'36

This guy has an extremely rare surname, found only in a few individuals in Messinia and Laconia, and many people in Euboea, so it could ultimately originate from there. No unusual autosomal, at least as indicated by 23andme.

2) Astros (P), Vervena (M), Arcadia - E-M183/D4

This chap also has a very unique surname (Greek etymologically), which is found overwhelmingly in Astros, so it could be Tsakonian in origin. Interesting that the mother is also from Kynouria. Is his paternal origin somehow North African? Mother probably came with the Slavs/Avars.

Mind pming me their surnames so that I can see if I already have them counted?

XXD
01-26-2021, 11:09 PM
Mind pming me their surnames so that I can see if I already have them counted?

You need to delete more messages so I can PM you.

Sorcelow
01-26-2021, 11:12 PM
You need to delete more messages so I can PM you.

Thanks, I just did so.

XXD
01-26-2021, 11:28 PM
Thanks, I just did so.

Messaged you.

Sorcelow
01-28-2021, 12:57 AM
Here are some updates for Laconia and Arcadia. They are the regions I have the most results for.

Laconia (N=62)

E-V13: 24%
J2a: 19%
R1b: 13%
I2a-M423: 13%
I2a-M223: 11%
R1a: 3%
J2b: 3%
I1: 3%
G2: 3%
Other E clades: 2%
H: 2%
J1: 2%
L: 2%

Arcadia (N=46)


E-V13: 19%
J2a: 11%
R1b: 17%
I2a-M423: 17%
I2a-M223: 0%
R1a: 2%
J2b: 11%
I1: 9%
G2: 2%
Other E clades: 2%
H: 2%
J1: 4%
L: 0%

Principe
01-28-2021, 01:45 AM
Here are some updates for Laconia and Arcadia. They are the regions I have the most results for.

Laconia (N=62)

E-V13: 24%
J2a: 19%
R1b: 13%
I2a-M423: 13%
I2a-M223: 11%
R1a: 3%
J2b: 3%
I1: 3%
G2: 3%
Other E clades: 2%
H: 2%
J1: 2%
L: 2%

Arcadia (N=46)


E-V13: 19%
J2a: 11%
R1b: 17%
I2a-M423: 17%
I2a-M223: 0%
R1a: 2%
J2b: 11%
I1: 9%
G2: 2%
Other E clades: 2%
H: 2%
J1: 4%
L: 0%

Do you see a difference in the J2a’s between the regions? What are you seeing for the other E’s, G, J1 and L?

Sorcelow
01-28-2021, 01:58 AM
Do you see a difference in the J2a’s between the regions? What are you seeing for the other E’s, G, J1 and L?

Unfortunately, I only have high level information regarding clades, so I can't really say. But it seems to me that J2a reaches its highest density in Laconia and Mani, and gradually lessens northward.

Most of the other E clades are M81, M84, . The G is mostly CTS2488. J1 is Z1828, L136, and ZS3128*. I have one L>M349, the others I are just L-M22.

Principe
01-28-2021, 02:13 AM
Unfortunately, I only have high level information regarding clades, so I can't really say. But it seems to me that J2a reaches its highest density in Laconia and Mani, and gradually lessens northward.

Most of the other E clades are M81, M84, . The G is mostly CTS2488. J1 is Z1828, L136, and ZS3128*. I have one L>M349, the others I are just L-M22.

Any G-M406? I find it interesting that only CTS2488 appears?

Thanks man I appreciate it.

peloponnesian
01-30-2021, 02:23 PM
23andMe results just came in, turns out I am G-L91. Pretty rare, huh?

edit:

I double-checked with Morley and CladeFinder, not sure what the negative calls might mean for downstream clades:

https://i.imgur.com/6BpgzTM.png
https://i.imgur.com/8SePAqp.png

Sorcelow
01-30-2021, 08:10 PM
23andMe results just came in, turns out I am G-L91. Pretty rare, huh?

edit:

I double-checked with Morley and CladeFinder, not sure what the negative calls might mean for downstream clades:

https://i.imgur.com/6BpgzTM.png
https://i.imgur.com/8SePAqp.png

Looks like a neolithic sample from Kozani was also L91

https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-L91/

peloponnesian
01-30-2021, 08:45 PM
Looks like a neolithic sample from Kozani was also L91

https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-L91/

Yes. Some visual tools show L91 appearing in western Balkans/central Europe but I don't think that's accurate.

Also, Ötzi has disappeared from the YFULL tree for some reason :confused:

Sorcelow
04-05-2021, 05:10 PM
Here are updated figures for the municipality of Sparta.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/2011_Dimos_Spartis.png/242px-2011_Dimos_Spartis.png

Sparta_N=44

EV13: 30%
I2a_M223: 16%
J2a: 14%
I2a Dinaric: 11%
R1b: 9%
J2b_L283: 5%
G: 2%
I1: 2%
J1: 2%
Other E clades: 2%

peloponnesian
04-05-2021, 05:50 PM
Here are updated figures for the municipality of Sparta.

Cool! BTW where are your ancestors from? You plot really close to my mother on ph2ter's K13 megaplot.

Sorcelow
04-05-2021, 06:01 PM
Cool! BTW where are your ancestors from? You plot really close to my mother on ph2ter's K13 megaplot.

All from villages situated on the slopes of the Taygetos in Sparta.

Principe
04-05-2021, 06:06 PM
Here are updated figures for the municipality of Sparta.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/2011_Dimos_Spartis.png/242px-2011_Dimos_Spartis.png

Sparta_N=44

EV13: 30%
I2a_M223: 16%
J2a: 14%
I2a Dinaric: 11%
R1b: 9%
J2b_L283: 5%
G: 2%
I1: 2%
J2: 2%
Other E clades: 2%

I didn't know I2 had such a high frequency!! I am curious are any of the I2-M223 under I-P78? P78 seems to have some branches with Mediterranean patterns.

Sorcelow
04-05-2021, 06:17 PM
I didn't know I2 had such a high frequency!! I am curious are any of the I2-M223 under I-P78? P78 seems to have some branches with Mediterranean patterns.

All the M223 is from one village, so the high frequency is probably due to sampling bias. It is all S12195

Tomenable
04-05-2021, 06:28 PM
Here are updated figures for the municipality of Sparta.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/2011_Dimos_Spartis.png/242px-2011_Dimos_Spartis.png

Sparta_N=44

EV13: 30%
I2a_M223: 16%
J2a: 14%
I2a Dinaric: 11%
R1b: 9%
J2b_L283: 5%
G: 2%
I1: 2%
J2: 2%
Other E clades: 2%

No R1a at all?

Sorcelow
04-05-2021, 06:30 PM
No R1a at all?

Nope, none so far.

Principe
04-05-2021, 06:42 PM
All the M223 is from one village, so the high frequency is probably due to sampling bias. It is all S12195

Interesting so the Yamnaya I2, this one has also been found in one of the Hellenistic Beirut samples.

23abc
04-05-2021, 06:42 PM
All the M223 is from one village, so the high frequency is probably due to sampling bias. It is all S12195

Very interesting, I-S12195 is a haplogroup I see a lot in my relative list a lot (also a haplogroup my paternal grandmother's father would have had) which is unrelated to Peloponnese. I wonder how widely distributed it is elsewhere, when the Yfull gives the impression it is rare or something.

Sorcelow
04-05-2021, 06:48 PM
Interesting so the Yamnaya I2, this one has also been found in one of the Hellenistic Beirut samples.

Interesting! Do you know which Beirut sample in particular, and if there is a thread I can read up on it?

Sorcelow
04-05-2021, 07:03 PM
Cool! BTW where are your ancestors from? You plot really close to my mother on ph2ter's K13 megaplot.

Do you mind sharing where your mother is from?

peloponnesian
04-05-2021, 07:13 PM
Do you mind sharing where your mother is from?

Αll her known ancestors are from this area: https://i.imgur.com/7vAWHuN.png

Unfortunately I don't know her paternal haplogroup yet, I'm trying to convince my cousin to take a test.

Principe
04-05-2021, 07:15 PM
Interesting! Do you know which Beirut sample in particular, and if there is a thread I can read up on it?

Yeah its SFI-35, and https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20466-A-Genetic-History-of-the-Near-East-from-an-aDNA-Time-Course-Sampling-2020/page6 post 57

Sorcelow
04-05-2021, 07:22 PM
Αll her known ancestors are from this area: https://i.imgur.com/7vAWHuN.png

Unfortunately I don't know her paternal haplogroup yet, I'm trying to convince my cousin to take a test.

Do you mind sharing her Dodecad k12b results?

peloponnesian
04-05-2021, 07:44 PM
Do you mind sharing her Dodecad k12b results?

edit

For some reason in the oracle results page it didn't show the smaller percentages, here's the correct:

Population
Gedrosia 4.79 Pct
Siberian 0.43 Pct
Northwest_African 0.94 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 27.09 Pct
North_European 24.1 Pct
South_Asian 0.37 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 9.46 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 32.83 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Dodecad @ 6.308741
2 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 8.424100
3 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 10.584679
4 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 12.049980
5 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 12.320333

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Romanians_Behar +50% S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 1.053476

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian_Dodecad +25% Cypriots_Behar +25% N_Italian_Dodecad @ 0.715334

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Cypriots_Behar + Greek_Dodecad + Hungarians_Behar + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 0.461690
2 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Bulgarian_Dodecad + Cypriots_Behar + N_Italian_Dodecad @ 0.715334
3 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad + S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.960859
4 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Cypriots_Behar + N_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar @ 1.037365
5 Romanians_Behar + Romanians_Behar + S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad + S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 1.053476

I've posted her MyHeritage and K13 results in the relevant threads if you want to check those as well.

Korabi
04-05-2021, 08:18 PM
Nope, none so far.

Maybe not Sparta but I have a Greek 23andme match from Peloponnese that is R-L1029. From Sofiko.

Hazmatnik
04-06-2021, 01:11 AM
Interestingly enough one of my hotspots of distant matches is Peloponnese, guys on 23 and me are mostly E-V13 with some J-L26 and J-L283.

44167

Greek guy from NW Peloponnese recently split my 4570 branch on FTDNA too.

tkofi
05-24-2021, 04:22 AM
I have two Maniot results, one from Messinian Mani and the other from Laconian. I believe they are both J2. My ancestry is from just north of Mani and I am J2a-M319. I think I also have a guy from Leonidio, Tsakonia, who is T-M70.

You probably got mine already from my recent thread but I am also J2a (from Mesa Mani)

J2a1 PF5197>>>>PF7421>>>>>FGC68843 (terminal subclade after doing big Y)

so 3 out of 3 Maniots are J2...have you got any other Maniot samples since you posted this? I understand it's been a while

tkofi
05-24-2021, 04:28 AM
Any new Y-DNA results from Mani?

see my profile and posts (Mesa Mani, Laconia paternal line)

tkofi
05-24-2021, 04:30 AM
I am not too familiar with Greek culture outside of the basics... So were blood feuds in Greece institutionalized like in Albania with the Kanun? as in codified and well defined by some Canon?
The more I frequent these forums the more similarities I see between the Albanian and Greek culture. I guess to most people language and religion are enough to look at these cultures as mutually exclusive, but comparatively speaking there is a lot in common.

PS: My fathers line left Albania some 7 Generations ago ~200 years due to Blood Feuds. It was a very structured ordeal. As insane as it sounds there was communication between the families in the feud, my ancestors were allowed to sell their land and given the option to migrate in order to end the feud.

Yes, the blood feuds in Mani where my paternal line comes from were highly "regulated" through a combination of unwritten rules and elders' supervision. Long story to post here but you can find stuff online or feel free to ask me any specific questions. I've done quite a bit of research on the subject

J Man
05-24-2021, 01:29 PM
see my profile and posts (Mesa Mani, Laconia paternal line)

Yup I know about yours.

Pleiades
06-20-2021, 01:49 PM
The Peloponnesean averages posted here are very similar to the Tosk ones.

Riverman
06-20-2021, 09:52 PM
The Peloponnesean averages posted here are very similar to the Tosk ones.

Its decisive how the subclades branch and separate from each other. General haplogroup similarity could be misleading, in some cases. Though I think there is a common link since antiquity.

Pleiades
06-21-2021, 09:49 AM
Its decisive how the subclades branch and separate from each other. General haplogroup similarity could be misleading, in some cases. Though I think there is a common link since antiquity.

I think the J-L283 haplogroup could be a marker of Albanian settlement in Greece, unless it already came here with the Dorians. It's likely that the arvanites brought other haplogroups along with L283 as well.

kostop
07-14-2021, 01:33 PM
Greetings from a Z2110 with paternal origin from the Messinia region.

Sorcelow
07-15-2021, 01:36 PM
Greetings from a Z2110 with paternal origin from the Messinia region.

Can you provide some more details on your background?

kostop
07-15-2021, 08:39 PM
Can you provide some more details on your background?

Sure, the paternal side of my family hails from a place called Leontari, in Arcadia. However, according to the stories my father has told me, his paternal ancestors arrived there from another place called Chranoi, at some point c.1800.
There are two places called Chranoi in the region; one in Arcadia and another one in neighbouring Messinia. Until recently I assumed that the Archadian Chranoi was our place of origin, due to its proximity to Leontari. That changed a few years ago, when a distant relative found me on Gedmatch, and he contacted me mentioning that his paternal ancestors came from the other Chranoi, in Messinia. Still I am not 100% certain about which of the two it is as I have not found written records or anything, but I guess that it is unlikely to be a coincidence.

Sorcelow
07-15-2021, 08:50 PM
Sure, the paternal side of my family hails from a place called Leontari, in Arcadia. However, according to the stories my father has told me, his paternal ancestors arrived there from another place called Chranoi, at some point c.1800.
There are two places called Chranoi in the region; one in Arcadia and another one in neighbouring Messinia. Until recently I assumed that the Archadian Chranoi was our place of origin, due to its proximity to Leontari. That changed a few years ago, when a distant relative found me on Gedmatch, and he contacted me mentioning that his paternal ancestors came from the other Chranoi, in Messinia. Still I am not 100% certain about which of the two it is as I have not found written records or anything, but I guess that it is unlikely to be a coincidence.

Do you have any y dna matches on FTDNA?

kostop
07-15-2021, 09:13 PM
Do you have any y dna matches on FTDNA?

No, I suppose my DYS393 value of 11 isn’t helping at 12 markers.
I have found a few 3rd-4th cousins on 23andme, but that’s about it.