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Ramond
05-14-2020, 07:12 PM
Has anyone seen this study yet? I haven't seen any threads on it.

"We study the kinship of two high-status Egyptians from the 12th Dynasty.. Ancient DNA was extracted from the teeth of the two mummies.. Sequences were obtained after hybridization capture of mtDNA and Y chromosome DNA.. Both mummies belong to mt haplotype M1a1, suggesting a maternal relationship.... Y DNA sequences showed variations, indicating that the mummies had different fathers..The SNP identities were consistent with mtDNA haplogroup M1a1 with 88.05–91.27% degree of confidence, thus confirming the African origins of the two individuals."
--Drosoua et al. 2018. The kinship of two 12th Dynasty mummies revealed by ancient DNA sequencing. Jrnl of Ar Sci, v17. Feb 2018, 793-797

https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/publications/the-kinship-of-two-12th-dynasty-mummies-revealed-by-ancient-dna-sequencing(6f7e0e83-90eb-4950-b451-cec627c5f6a4)/export.html

passenger
05-14-2020, 08:03 PM
I'm no expert in haplogroups, but that doesn't seem surprising to me given that M1a1 is common to both the Near East and East Africa. Have the origins and dispersal of M1a1 actually been determined, though? There's been a lot of discussion over Asian vs. African origins. González et al., for instance, support an Asian origin, with "backflow" into Africa https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1945034/.

drobbah
05-14-2020, 08:27 PM
M1a is clearly an indigenous NE African haplogroup which is why it has high frequencies in both the Horn (descendants of migrants from the North) and North Africa. It is not surprising that both of these mummies carry M1a

passenger
05-14-2020, 08:57 PM
M1a is clearly an indigenous NE African haplogroup which is why it has high frequencies in both the Horn (descendants of migrants from the North) and North Africa. It is not surprising that both of these mummies carry M1a

Thanks, but do you have sources that you recommend on this?

Ramond
05-15-2020, 09:09 AM
Thanks, but do you have sources that you recommend on this?

“Conceptually what genetic markers are considered to be “African” or “Asian” .. For example, the E1b1b1 (M35/78) lineage found in one Abusir el-Meleq sample is found not only in northern Africa, but is also well represented in eastern Africa7 and perhaps was taken to Europe across the Mediterranean before the Holocene (Trombetta, personal communication). E lineages are found in high frequency (>70%) among living Egyptians in Adaima9. The authors define all mitochondrial M1 haplogroups as “Asian” which is problematic. M1 has been postulated to have emerged in Africa10, and there is no convincing evidence supporting an M1 ancestor in Asia: many M1 daughter haplogroups (M1a) are clearly African in origin and history10. The M1a1, M1a2a, M1a1i, M1a1e variants found in the Abusir el-Meleq samples1 predate Islam and are abundant in SSA groups10, particularly in East Africa.”

FROM: -Gourdine JP, Keita SOY, Gourdine JL, Anselin A, 2018. Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt

passenger
05-15-2020, 02:47 PM
“Conceptually what genetic markers are considered to be “African” or “Asian” .. For example, the E1b1b1 (M35/78) lineage found in one Abusir el-Meleq sample is found not only in northern Africa, but is also well represented in eastern Africa7 and perhaps was taken to Europe across the Mediterranean before the Holocene (Trombetta, personal communication). E lineages are found in high frequency (>70%) among living Egyptians in Adaima9. The authors define all mitochondrial M1 haplogroups as “Asian” which is problematic. M1 has been postulated to have emerged in Africa10, and there is no convincing evidence supporting an M1 ancestor in Asia: many M1 daughter haplogroups (M1a) are clearly African in origin and history10. The M1a1, M1a2a, M1a1i, M1a1e variants found in the Abusir el-Meleq samples1 predate Islam and are abundant in SSA groups10, particularly in East Africa.”

FROM: -Gourdine JP, Keita SOY, Gourdine JL, Anselin A, 2018. Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt

Yeah, it seems that reference is being used a lot by people pushing the Black Egyptian hypothesis, so I'd be a little suspicious. M1a may have originated in (Northeast) Africa, but that doesn't mean that M1 in general did, and from what I've seen there is plenty of legitimate scientific debate over this, so saying there is "no convincing evidence" sounds like BS.

I'm wondering what the point of this discussion is anyway. So what if M1a originated in Northeast Africa? The Ancient Egyptians were a Northeast African people, albeit with influences gathered from other regions over time, but this does not imply a close genetic relationship to African peoples outside of the North and Northeast.

Ramond
05-15-2020, 04:36 PM
Yeah, it seems that reference is being used a lot by people pushing the Black Egyptian hypothesis, so I'd be a little suspicious.

Not sure what you mean here. I thought that we were discussing the genetic affinities of early ancient Egyptians. This has nothing to do with who is "black" or "white", which are social constructs. This type of information (population genetics) should not really be used to try to determine if someone belonged to either one of those categories (that did not exist until the 17th century). I maintain that one cannot assume that haplogroups equates to socially defined race. Those assumptions muddy the water of genetic research, as several major news articles have indicated. There is no evidence to indicate this, and instead much evidence to debunk such assumptions.

If "race" is what someone is shooting for, then there are much better indicators of what people looked like. There is much data (of all kinds) on the ancient Egyptians, especially.


M1a may have originated in (Northeast) Africa, but that doesn't mean that M1 in general did, and from what I've seen there is plenty of legitimate scientific debate over this, so saying there is "no convincing evidence" sounds like BS.

I've grown use to the sources that proclaim it to be African. This claim did not start in 2018. You may not be familiar with them however. For example;

"A more recent dispersal out of Africa, represented by the E3b-M35 chromosomes, expanded northward during the Mesolithic (Underhill et al. 2001b). The East African origin of this lineage is supported by the much larger variance of the E3b-M35 males in Egypt versus Oman (0.5 versus 0.14; table 3). Consistent with the NRY data is the mtDNA expansion estimate of 10–20 ky ago for the East African M1 clade.... --Luis et al 2004. The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 Mar; 74(3): 532–544.


I'm wondering what the point of this discussion is anyway. So what if M1a originated in Northeast Africa? The Ancient Egyptians were a Northeast African people, albeit with influences gathered from other regions over time

Northeast Africa is a geographic location that has experienced some of the most well documented invasions, migrations and overall demographic shifts. There's been so much of a shift that research has confirmed this in the least;

"Cosmopolitan northern Egypt is less likely to have a population representative of the core indigenous population of the most ancient times“ (S.O.Y. Keita, A.J. Boyce, "Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation1," History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246 )

That being said let's not make assumptions on who was in Northeast Africa from 3,500 BC to around say around 500 BC (when the invasions began). Northeast Africa is not the name of a specific people.


but this does not imply a close genetic relationship to African peoples outside of the North and Northeast.

While I would also add "Sub Saharan East Africa" into that mix, you are correct! This data does not imply any close relationship with other inner African populations. The paternal markers however were not given out for the two 12th dynasty brothers, who have an East African mother. Is there other data that implies relationships with Africans outside of "North and Northeast"?

Ramond
05-15-2020, 04:39 PM
Here is a lecture by S.O.Y. Keita at Cambridge about the "bio-cultural affinities of the ancient Egyptians". I've watched this countless times over the last decade, and read his work that much of what he says this is based on;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS3yFCoIdXc

passenger
05-15-2020, 04:56 PM
Not sure what you mean here. I thought that we were discussing the genetic affinities of early ancient Egyptians. This has nothing to do with who is "black" or "white", which are social constructs. This type of information (population genetics) should not really be used to try to determine if someone belonged to either one of those categories (that did not exist until the 17th century). I maintain that one cannot assume that haplogroups equates to socially defined race. Those assumptions muddy the water of genetic research, as several major news articles have indicated. There is no evidence to indicate this, and instead much evidence to debunk such assumptions.

If "race" is what someone is shooting for, then there are much better indicators of what people looked like. There is much data (of all kinds) on the ancient Egyptians, especially.



I've grown use to the sources that proclaim it to be African. This claim did not start in 2018. You may not be familiar with them however. For example;

"A more recent dispersal out of Africa, represented by the E3b-M35 chromosomes, expanded northward during the Mesolithic (Underhill et al. 2001b). The East African origin of this lineage is supported by the much larger variance of the E3b-M35 males in Egypt versus Oman (0.5 versus 0.14; table 3). Consistent with the NRY data is the mtDNA expansion estimate of 10–20 ky ago for the East African M1 clade.... --Luis et al 2004. The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 Mar; 74(3): 532–544.



Northeast Africa is a geographic location that has experienced some of the most well documented invasions, migrations and overall demographic shifts. There's been so much of a shift that research has confirmed this in the least;

"Cosmopolitan northern Egypt is less likely to have a population representative of the core indigenous population of the most ancient times“ (S.O.Y. Keita, A.J. Boyce, "Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation1," History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246 )

That being said let's not make assumptions on who was in Northeast Africa from 3,500 BC to around say around 500 BC (when the invasions began). Northeast Africa is not the name of a specific people.



While I would also add "Sub Saharan East Africa" into that mix, you are correct! This data does not imply any close relationship with other inner African populations. The paternal markers however were not given out for the two 12th dynasty brothers, who have an East African mother. Is there other data that implies relationships with Africans outside of "North and Northeast"?

Thank you for sharing more details. I'd like to clarify that I'm not making any assumptions, I'm just trying to get better informed on the subject, but also understand where you are coming from and what you see to be the relevance of the passage you highlighted in the OP. I don't find anything groundbreaking or illuminating about Ancient Egyptians having M1a, so I'm not sure what the significance of this study is and what it's supposed to tell us. Can you explain why you shared it and what your take on it is? And why you chose to highlight that specific passage?

I fully agree with your comments on haplogroups and race. What I object to - and I'm not necessarily saying that you personally are supporting this (you seem to have a more nuanced and informed take on the subject) - is the fact that the articles that you have referenced are being used on online forums by people pushing the Black Egypt hypothesis for ideological purposes. They often take snippets of these articles and use them out of context.

Ramond
05-15-2020, 05:14 PM
what you see to be the relevance of the passage you highlighted in the OP. ... I don't find anything groundbreaking or illuminating about Ancient Egyptians having M1a, so I'm not sure what the significance of this study is and what it's supposed to tell us....Can you explain why you shared it and what your take on it is? And why you chose to highlight that specific passage?

That these early ancient Egyptians (12th dynasty) do in fact have some "Sub Saharan African" ancestry based on this analysis. Upon reading this thread, and this highlighted exert;

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20221-aDNA-from-Nubia

"By identifying the affiliation of the haplogroups and their comparison with the cumulative data from the literature (Supplementary Table 1), we can discuss each
haplogroup to verify hypotheses on the X-Group origins. We found an influx of subSaharan African ancestry after the Meroitic Period, which corroborates the findings of Schuenemann et al. (2017)"

it appears that another assumption has been made that the "Sub Saharan" element was not present in ancient Northeast African civilizations like Egypt and Nubia until much later (the "slave trade" was noted as the explanation). From a geographic (not social-political euphemisms) perspective this mtdna which came from Sub Saharan East Africa found in early dynastic Egyptians completely shatters those proclamations. Those are "sensationalist" and most importantly baseless claims based on the research that I have seen.


I fully agree with your comments on haplogroups and race.

That's great, because there are entire forums where people do this. It's complete nonsense, and it blows up in their faces every single time that they try to present those types of arguments.


What I object to - and I'm not necessarily saying that you personally are supporting this (you seem to have a more nuanced and informed take on the subject) - is the fact that the articles that you have referenced are being used on online forums by people pushing the Black Egypt hypothesis for ideological purposes. They often take snippets of these articles and use them out of context.

I'm not sure what going on on "Afrocentric" forums and what not. Now if the Egyptians were "Black" or "White" that is a "debate" that goes far past the narrow scope of information that genetics gives us. I'm not sure what other people argue or how they do it, but this thread was meant to bring attention to the maternal lineages found in two 12th dynasty Egyptian brothers.

passenger
05-15-2020, 05:22 PM
That these early ancient Egyptians (12th dynasty) do in fact have some "Sub Saharan African" ancestry based on this analysis. Upon reading this thread, and this highlighted exert;

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20221-aDNA-from-Nubia

"By identifying the affiliation of the haplogroups and their comparison with the cumulative data from the literature (Supplementary Table 1), we can discuss each
haplogroup to verify hypotheses on the X-Group origins. We found an influx of subSaharan African ancestry after the Meroitic Period, which corroborates the findings of Schuenemann et al. (2017)"

it appears that another assumption has been made that the "Sub Saharan" element was not present in ancient Northeast African civilizations like Egypt and Nubia until much later (the "slave trade" was noted as the explanation). From a geographic (not social-political euphemisms) perspective this mtdna which came from Sub Saharan East Africa found in early dynastic Egyptians completely shatters those proclamations. Those are "sensationalist" and most importantly baseless claims based on the research that I have seen.



That's great, because there are entire forums where people do this. It's complete nonsense, and it blows up in their faces every single time that they try to present those types of arguments.



I'm not sure what going on on "Afrocentric" forums and what not. Now if the Egyptians were "Black" or "White" that is a "debate" that goes far past the narrow scope of information that genetics gives us. I'm not sure what other people argue or how they do it, but this thread was meant to bring attention to the maternal lineages found in two 12th dynasty Egyptian brothers.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm still not sure how M1a is supposed to prove a flow from Subsaharan East Africa into Egypt, but I'll leave it for others to discuss.

Ramond
05-15-2020, 05:30 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I'm still not sure how M1a is supposed to prove a flow from Subsaharan East Africa into Egypt, but I'll leave it for others to discuss.

Meant to say M1a1, which is found in abundance in Sub-Saharan Africa.

dr.sparco
05-15-2020, 07:50 PM
Thanks, but do you have sources that you recommend on this?

According to familytreedna the mtdna M is an Eurasian hp. Your can read here their arguments why they suggest an Eurasian origin of the mtdna M.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-mt-dna-haplogroup/about/background

Ramond
05-16-2020, 03:39 AM
Here's another implication of M1 being African;

"The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers. This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations. Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population." (Stevanovitch A, Gilles A, Bouzaid E, et al. (2004) Mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity in a sedentary population from Egypt.Ann Hum Genet. 68(Pt 1):23-39.)