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alan
12-15-2020, 11:38 AM
Not to quibble, but I think we're at the point where there are as many R1b CW samples as there are R1a, and apparently more are on the way.

Probably not so patchy or so minority.

Besides, if they're finding more than a handful of them in ancient burials, there must have been a crapload of them in the third millennium BC.

True. I wondered about putting patchy and minority. Its weird though that so much of CW was R1a in the sampling for so long. I suppose where they sampled effected that. A lot of the R1a was through the centre of Europe and a lot of areas were not sampled or only very lightly so. Perhaps there were two groups heading west with one going more inland cross-river east to west and another going east to west along the North Sea coast. Sampling is so poor between Denmark and the Lower Rhine.

Judging from Furholts early CW networking map, an L151 route from the Lower Oder system in NW Poland and NE Germany- S Holstein (then a side route into Jutland) -NW Germany-Holland (and down the Rhine to Switzerland) is tempting. If this started c. 2900BC and the spread from the Oder to the Rhine was complete within a century then perhaps U106 was a branch left behind in NE Germany and Denmark on the journey west while P312 arose in the L151 that moved further to the west. This would seem to v compatible with the yFull formation dates for L151, U106 and P312 which are now all placed around 2800BC.

Beaker P312 then simply become a period of exceptional secondary expansion of the Lower Rhine subgroup - probably due to its unique (among CW people) advantage gained by useful contacts with more technologically advanced copper age peoples to the west and south which it had by its proximity to France and ability to use the Rhine to reach the west Alpine groups.

alan
12-15-2020, 02:37 PM
L151 seems to me to have been the group who developed some mastery of the sea over time. Perhaps not enough for wide sea crossing though as neither P312 or U106 crossed in Corded Ware guise to the isles in pre-beaker times. However, CW did arrive on the Danish Islands so some capability existed. I suspect a period of existence on the coast and the really large wide rivers like the Rhine and Elbe may have seen them first improve their boating skills and technology on rivers, estuaries and coast hugging/short hops. The links between Grand Pressigny and Holland and NW Germany (crossing northern France) in CW pre-beaker times shows they could cross the Lower Rhine or bypass it. I have to say, looking at maps of the Lower Rhine in the Roman era, it looks a nightmare of a boggy, swampy, peaty quagmire area. I am not aware of any prehistoric fords that low on the Rhine. Seems like using boats to travel around would be a necessity in that area. I would look at maps and think if you were crossing the Rhine westwars you'd be better going by sea or heading much further up the Rhine to drier areas and skipping the area totally. But admittedly I have never looked much into this.

MitchellSince1893
12-15-2020, 02:57 PM
Obviously the local natives have the maritime skills to cross rivers and straits. Thus the Dothraki..., I mean L51 steppe folk don’t necessarily need to have this skill early on. Folks have been ferried across waterways for millennia. Might be a trading/barter situation at known points of crossing...part of a prexiting transportation/trade network.

alan
12-15-2020, 03:06 PM
Unless the Lower Rhine CW groups were masochists who liked sinking as they walked, I assume they settled on the drier higher sand deposits shown in orange here.

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0013795218319732-gr2.jpg

It also looks like there are three separate areas of the raised sandy drier land in Holland. I'd like to see a distribution of CW sites overlaid onto the physical land type map. It looks like Velue type beakers were best placed on the Rhine for contact west and south. https://www.mupload.nl/img/ce39k4.49.25.png

alan
12-15-2020, 03:07 PM
Obviously the local natives have the maritime skills to cross rivers and straits. Thus the Dothraki..., I mean L51 steppe folk don’t necessarily need to have this skill early on. Folks have been ferried across waterways for millennia. Might be a trading/barter situation at known points of crossing...part of a prexiting transportation/trade network.

LOL. Was it the iron born or the southern kingdom whose name escapes me (unsullied etc) who ferried the 'steppe' Dothraki?

MitchellSince1893
12-15-2020, 03:20 PM
You forced me to geek out and search it up. It was


Yara and Theon Greyjoy, along with the 100 ships they managed to swipe from the Iron Island fleet

Little known fact, the mother of Dragons had at least two children; a red dragon (P312) and white dragon (U106)

https://www.deviantart.com/strecno/art/Saxons-vs-Celts-136582530

Lol

alan
12-15-2020, 10:11 PM
But certainly in the beaker era, the need for boats didnt end at the big crossing to Britain. There are areas of broken territory where military power, trade and naval ability are very closely linked. Its much easier to dominate those kind of landscapes with a navy. Extreme cases are Atlantic Scotland, western Ireland, Norway and Greece where there are very broken indented landscape and/or many large islands and naval power was key from the earliest records. Its hard to look at the prehistoric Lower Rhine area and not think that its also an example of an area where people with boats could dominate it far better than a land-based people. I think in general the way the north of Europe is crossed by the mouths and wide lower reaches of south to north flowing rivers emptying into the North Sea and Baltic would make east-west movement by coast-hugging very tempting rather than crossing a sequence of wet boggy lower stretches of major rivers. Some of the north European connections between early CW peoples on Furholt's map look potentially maritime coast-hugging affairs.

rms2
12-16-2020, 05:58 PM
The Corded Ware R1b-L23 from the site at Szczytna, Poland, pcw110, came from Grave 84 and was a 5-6-year-old boy buried Corded Ware style with a couple of axes, a beaker, an amphora, and a cattle bone, among other items. I could not find any photos of that burial, but the photo below is of Grave 4 from Site 6 at the same location, one of a total of 7 Corded Ware burials there, a male, on his right side, with an axe of actual copper rather than stone (most were stone). Probably a relative, but Linderholm et al were only able to get DNA from the little boy in Grave 84. They were also only able to get as far as R1b-L23 (unless someone else with sufficient computer power can look at the BAM file and find out more).

41766

razyn
12-16-2020, 06:39 PM
But certainly in the beaker era, the need for boats didn't end at the big crossing to Britain. [etc.]

Coincidentally, archaeologist Catriona Gibson has just uploaded a relevant (though 20 year old) paper to Academia. The title begins, "Plain Sailing:" Her work is often a bit revisionist, but she has dug in a lot of interesting places, and knows whereof she speaks. This is not a DNA study. https://www.academia.edu/497972/Plain_Sailing_Later_Bronze_Age_Western_Iberia_at_t he_Cross_roads_of_the_Atlantic_and_Mediterranean?a uto=download&email_work_card=download-paper

rms2
12-16-2020, 07:10 PM
Looking back through Linderholm et al today. Here's a photo of the burial at Święte, Poland, that produced pcw070 from Grave 876, an R1b-L51 male about 30-35 years old, buried in classic CW style (on his right side, knees bent, head to the west), with two beakers, a flint axe, a blade used as a knife, and a bone chisel. Nice one. He was in "well preserved" condition, according to the authors (p.7 of the Supplementary material).

41767

alan
12-16-2020, 07:34 PM
The Corded Ware R1b-L23 from the site at Szczytna, Poland, pcw110, came from Grave 84 and was a 5-6-year-old boy buried Corded Ware style with a couple of axes, a beaker, an amphora, and a cattle bone, among other items. I could not find any photos of that burial, but the photo below is of Grave 4 from Site 6 at the same location, one of a total of 7 Corded Ware burials there, a male, on his right side, with an axe of actual copper rather than stone (most were stone). Probably a relative, but Linderholm et al were only able to get DNA from the little boy in Grave 84. They were also only able to get as far as R1b-L23 (unless someone else with sufficient computer power can look at the BAM file and find out more).

41766

I may simply be forgetting but is it not the case that all resolved L23 is L51 in CW and no Z2103 or other L23 clades have been found in CW and CW derived pre-beaker cultures. I would tend to think that when L23 is found in CW it is very very likely to be an L51 derivative.

Finn
12-16-2020, 07:34 PM
Unless the Lower Rhine CW groups were masochists who liked sinking as they walked, I assume they settled on the drier higher sand deposits shown in orange here.

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0013795218319732-gr2.jpg

It also looks like there are three separate areas of the raised sandy drier land in Holland. I'd like to see a distribution of CW sites overlaid onto the physical land type map. It looks like Velue type beakers were best placed on the Rhine for contact west and south. https://www.mupload.nl/img/ce39k4.49.25.png

Correct you see two hotspots on the sandy hights: one in the Veluwe area just above the Rhine more or less in the center, and one more NE wards mostly in the province of Drenthe. Especially the Veluwe is even today a R1b S116 hotspot.

Finn
12-16-2020, 07:41 PM
L151 seems to me to have been the group who developed some mastery of the sea over time. Perhaps not enough for wide sea crossing though as neither P312 or U106 crossed in Corded Ware guise to the isles in pre-beaker times. However, CW did arrive on the Danish Islands so some capability existed. I suspect a period of existence on the coast and the really large wide rivers like the Rhine and Elbe may have seen them first improve their boating skills and technology on rivers, estuaries and coast hugging/short hops. The links between Grand Pressigny and Holland and NW Germany (crossing northern France) in CW pre-beaker times shows they could cross the Lower Rhine or bypass it. I have to say, looking at maps of the Lower Rhine in the Roman era, it looks a nightmare of a boggy, swampy, peaty quagmire area. I am not aware of any prehistoric fords that low on the Rhine. Seems like using boats to travel around would be a necessity in that area. I would look at maps and think if you were crossing the Rhine westwars you'd be better going by sea or heading much further up the Rhine to drier areas and skipping the area totally. But admittedly I have never looked much into this.

During Roman times, the old Frisii did not hide in swampy area's, on the contrary on the artificial hights (terpen, wierden) they had direct acces to the North Sea, the highway of that time (traveling over land was a hell of a job!). The Frisii were very well connected to the Roman inhabited parts beneath the limes.

alan
12-16-2020, 07:55 PM
Looking back through Linderholm et al today. Here's a photo of the burial at Święte, Poland, that produced pcw070 from Grave 876, an R1b-L51 male about 30-35 years old, buried in classic CW style (on his right side, knees bent, head to the west), with two beakers, a flint axe, a blade used as a knife, and a bone chisel. Nice one. It was in "well preserved" condition, according to the authors (p.7 of the Supplementary material).

41767

Interesting that the two Polish samples you note are from the lower and upper reaches of the Oder River system.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Piotr_Malinski/publication/340701982/figure/fig1/AS:[email protected]/The-Oder-a-river-of-three-nations-on-the-map-of-central-Europe-The-research-area.jpg

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mateusz_Zielinski2/publication/326063482/figure/fig1/AS:[email protected]/Schematic-map-showing-the-Oder-River-watershed-area-with-topographic-relief-with-the.png

That where I recently speculated the start of the L151 (or its immediate ancestor) CW trail may be - based on other things as I didnt appreciate the Polish CW link to the river until you posted just now. When you look at the map, the Oder is an important route. There is a Czech CW guy too who is L151 isnt there?

Personally I think L151 existed by the start of CW c. 2900BC as yfull puts its formation at 2800BC and most people think yfull is at least slightly too young with its dating. I remember years ago noticing the L151xU106xP312 concentration around the west end of the south Baltic shore. An Oder migration path to the Baltic could have allowed them to get to the northern shore route westwards and reaching NW Poland, NE Germany,
crossing the neck of S-Holstein to Holland quickly (resembling Furholt's network) while other R1a groups took different more inland migration routes west of Poland.

alan
12-16-2020, 07:58 PM
During Roman times, the old Frisii did not hide in swampy area's, on the contrary on the artificial lights (terpen, wierden) they had direct acces to the North Sea, the highway of that time (traveling over land was a hell of a job!). The Frisii were very well connected to the Roman inhabited parts beneath the limes.

Yeah I thought of them and their known fleet/pirates. I cannot imagine anyone dominating that area without naval ability.

rms2
12-16-2020, 10:33 PM
Here is something I had not really paid much attention to from pages 2-3 of Linderholm et al regarding the origin of Corded Ware.



The general idea of a central barrow grave - a chamber built most often with the use of wooden elements, and features of burial (such as the head orientation to the west, the crouched position on the back) finds analogies in the ideology of the steppe communities, including the Yamnaya culture. On the other hand, the details of the grave constructions, the lack of ochre application in the funeral ritual, equipment, technological and stylistic features of the finds were usually considered as local - Central European features (e.g., [7, 12]. Accordingly, it was assumed that all known CWC barrow graves from Małopolska did not represent the stage of migration, but probably were a consequence of that. At the same time, the possibility that steppe communities dispersed into Małopolska regions was indicated - starting from the turn of the fourth and third millennium BCE. This phenomenon, called the "CWC-X horizon" [10, 13, 14], would precede the rather static formalisation of the CWC barrow ritual, i.e. the A horizon. Until recently, this was only a theoretical idea. Recently, this has been confirmed with the discovery of graves with skeletons coloured with ochre in burials at site 2 in Hubinek, dated to 3000-2900 BCE [15]: supplement; see also [16]. The barrow burials of the older phase of the CWC - both from Małopolska and from other regions of Europe - have not been the subject of archaeogenetic research so far. This is mainly due to the small number but also poor quality of bone materials that may be used to perform such analyses. The lack of archaeogenomic information hinders the interpretations of the demographic development and possible changes at the beginning of the Final Eneolithic period and the issue of the relations and developments between the CWC and the Yamnaya complexes.

Here is Hubinek, Poland (https://goo.gl/maps/vZLs32Xb2Doragrz8). It's near Łubcze, where pcw350, a Corded Ware R1b-M269, was recovered.

This puts me in mind of the recent Nordqvist and Heyd Yamnaya-to-Corded Ware transformation map. The "CWC-X horizon" could mark the transition or "transformation" phase. It sure would be nice to get some Y-DNA from those older CW burials with ochre at Hubinek.

That's what we need (among other things): CWC-X Horizon genomes, especially Y-DNA.

Sharing the Nordqvist and Heyd map again for emphasis.

41788

razyn
12-17-2020, 01:01 AM
Here is Hubinek, Poland (https://goo.gl/maps/vZLs32Xb2Doragrz8). It's near Łubcze, where pcw350, a Corded Ware R1b-M269, was recovered.

It's also near the place I picked [more specifically, for P312 formation] a bit more than two years ago, when Mitchell was polling us to guess which circle... only two of us voted for his circle D. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated&p=483409&viewfull=1#post483409

And it's "closer to Pinsk than to Barcelona," which I had said (only partly in jest) about the origin of DF27, earlier than that.

Webb
12-17-2020, 04:18 PM
It's also near the place I picked [more specifically, for P312 formation] a bit more than two years ago, when Mitchell was polling us to guess which circle... only two of us voted for his circle D. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated&p=483409&viewfull=1#post483409

And it's "closer to Pinsk than to Barcelona," which I had said (only partly in jest) about the origin of DF27, earlier than that.

I remember you writing that because I stated that Minsk rhymes with Pinsk, which no one found amusing. Just myself. Something that is not amusing, however, is the fact that there a few Polish L238 kits that get lost in the shuffle with all the Scandinavian samples.

razyn
12-17-2020, 07:31 PM
I remember you writing that because I stated that Minsk rhymes with Pinsk, which no one found amusing. Just myself.

You think? I am in no way endorsing this Cold War-era analysis of Soviet mathematical wizards, as a class; but listen carefully to the lyric. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL4vWJbwmqM

MitchellSince1893
12-17-2020, 10:16 PM
...Sharing the Nordqvist and Heyd map again for emphasis.

41788
If (big if) the author of that map was in the know and very specific/careful in route and arrow placement, then taken literally, it implies the following:

Those that became/would become CWC traveled from the Ukraine border with Poland, down the San River valley to the Vistula. From this Core area (where 2 routes originate from) one group traveled up the Vistula to the Warta River (tributary of the Oder River), and headed downstream from there, eventually becoming SCG.

Another group headed east from this Core area to future Fatyanova area.

Probably too literal an interpretation, but just in case, that’s my take.

San and Warta Rivers

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Vistula_river_map.png

https://images.app.goo.gl/i7FjbhZjGiZyvZxm9

rms2
12-17-2020, 10:25 PM
If (big if) the author of map was in the know and very specific/careful in route and arrow placement, then taken literally, it implies the following:

Those that became/would become CWC traveled from the Ukraine border with Poland, down the San River to the Vistula. From this Core area (where 2 routes originate from) one group traveled up the Vistula to the Warta River (tributary of the Oder River), and headed downstream from there, eventually becoming SCG.

Another group headed east from this Core area to future Fatyanova area.

Probably too literal an interpretation, but just in case, that’s my take.

Yeah, at the very least, the authors bring the Yamnaya transformers up the Prut and Dniester rivers, east of the Carpathians, and then have them hang a left north of that mountain range and head west, right toward SE Poland.

I want to see some genomes from those CWC-X horizon graves in Hubinek.

rms2
12-17-2020, 10:33 PM
. . .
Here is Hubinek, Poland (https://goo.gl/maps/vZLs32Xb2Doragrz8). It's near Łubcze, where pcw350, a Corded Ware R1b-M269, was recovered . . .


I neglected to mention that there were three male Corded Ware skeletons recovered at Łubcze and tested. The other two were pcw361, a 3-4-year-old boy, and pcw362, a 4-5-year-old boy. They shared a single grave and were buried CW style, with an amphora and a couple of CW beakers. The two boys were both R1b-L52 (P310).

Łubcze is literally just right down the road west of Hubinek, about 3 km (less than two miles).

razyn
12-18-2020, 01:36 AM
I think there's a danger in equating the archaeological sequence with the genetic (and really, the YDNA) tree branching. There's a relationship, sure, but it doesn't have to be 1:1, and we certainly don't know all the archaeological OR genetic stepping stones, yet. The arrow(s) on that Harrison and Heyd map are way more ambiguous than what you guys are saying.

Guys from the steppe brought their very successful genetic markers to central and western Europe. I think the very broad term "Yamnaya" is still tending to make people think, reflexively, "the Danube end of the Black Sea." And then to back off, only as little as possible; hence Dniester, Prut, etc. The big players in this game were the Volga and the Dnieper; beyond that, we are juggling snowballs that melt with every new aDNA paper.

Linguistics is still lurking somewhere, too.

rms2
12-18-2020, 01:59 AM
The point of the Prut and the Dniester was merely that they are east of the Carpathians. That is what the Nordqvist and Heyd map shows to be the route of the branch of Yamnaya they think became Corded Ware. My first mention of it included the caveat that I don't know how exact Nordqvist and Heyd meant to be with that map and its arrows. Maybe just ballpark; but one thing is certain: they don't think the Yamnaya folks they believe somehow transformed into Corded Ware came west via the mouth of the Danube and the Carpathian basin.

I don't know what other people think, but to me Yamnaya is a broad steppe pastoralist horizon that was the product of a number of Eneolithic feeder cultures. In terms of archaeogenetics, they seem to represent a single autosomal DNA pool, but divided into various tribes dominated by males of different Y-haplogroups: in some places R1b-Z2103, in others, R1b-L51, in still others, R1a-M417, and so on.

I don't know who thinks Yamnaya was limited to the mouth of the Danube.

On the other hand, we are talking about steppe pastoralist people. That's where they came from: the Eurasian steppe. A route into central Europe through the forest zone directly to the north of the steppe seems unlikely to me.

rms2
12-18-2020, 02:20 AM
The following is from Svetlana Ivanova, Baltic-Pontic Studies vol. 18: 2013, 86-120 PL ISSN 1231-0344, "Connections Between the Budzhak Culture and Central European Groups of the Corded Ware Culture", page 113:



The authors believe that the Dniester way linked the population of the late Eneolithic – Early Bronze Age of the North-Western Pontic Region not only with the Sokal ridge or Malopolska, where the pottery complex of the Zlota culture contained vessels comparable with the pottery of the Usatovo type [Włodarczak 2008: 520] . Probably, the Budzhak population migrated westwards to central Europe across Malopolska and northern slopes of the Carpathians. The evidence of such connections could be found in the presence of Yamnaya graves in the central European area (Fig . 15), as well as in the similarity of individual shapes of pottery and ornamental motifs (Fig. 11, 12, 18-20).

The point is not so much the specifics but that the route up the Dniester was a pathway from the Pontic steppe around the east and north sides of the Carpathians into SE Poland.

Another factor Ivanova mentions is from the historical record, and that is that the medieval nomads the Pechenegs and Cumans came up the Prut River to break into central Europe (page 111). That doesn't necessarily mean Yamnaya did the same thing around the turn of the 4th to the 3rd millennium BC, but it does indicate that it apparently was a handy route for a horse-borne, wagon-borne, stock-driving people bound for central Europe from the Russian/Ukrainian steppe.

etrusco
12-18-2020, 07:18 AM
I think there's a danger in equating the archaeological sequence with the genetic (and really, the YDNA) tree branching. There's a relationship, sure, but it doesn't have to be 1:1, and we certainly don't know all the archaeological OR genetic stepping stones, yet. The arrow(s) on that Harrison and Heyd map are way more ambiguous than what you guys are saying.

Guys from the steppe brought their very successful genetic markers to central and western Europe. I think the very broad term "Yamnaya" is still tending to make people think, reflexively, "the Danube end of the Black Sea." And then to back off, only as little as possible; hence Dniester, Prut, etc. The big players in this game were the Volga and the Dnieper; beyond that, we are juggling snowballs that melt with every new aDNA paper.

Linguistics is still lurking somewhere, too.

Probably you missed my previous post entirely based on leaking from Eurogenes

The Yamnaya expansion didn't start at the eastern end of the PC steppe, , but in fact it largely moved from west to east. That is, from the steppe north of the Black Sea into the Caspian region.

This should have been obvious a long time ago, because there's a western signal in the Yamnaya genome that is lacking in Khvalynsk, Progress, etc. But these things are often hard to read correctly without more samples to create the proper context.

So yeah, there was a lot of replacement, but that largely happened in the Volga and Caspian steppes.

IMHO these folks were paternally linked with the royal chieftains that we can see in the prestige burials of the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka culture ( with horse heded scepters and kurgans).

We know that remains of Suvorovo-Novodanilovka culture of chiefs emerged around 4400-4200 BC among ordinary local Sredni Stog settlements:

the Novodanilovka rich burials in the steppes, near the Dnieper, and the Suvorovo group in the Danube delta, roughly coinciding with the massive abandonment of old tell settlements in the area.

alan
12-18-2020, 11:16 AM
I think the roots of CW lie in the forest steppe Yamnaya in the middling parts of the rivers between the Prut and Dnieper. I think the Dniester is especially important but it is possible that a number of rivers were involved. There was also longitudinal connections between the Dniester and Dnieper in its middling stretches in CW and GAC times. I think the Dniester was almost certainly the key L51 one. The alternative route into southern Poland using the Dnieper and then the Pripit is also possible. The Pripit route sounds a difficult one but if boats were used that is less the case. I believe the Bug also has a route westwards or north-westwards that has been detected archaeologically. The Dnieper also has the possibility of not branching off west and simply continuing north into what later became Fatyanovo territory. That doesnt look at all a likely as an L51 route though. i dont know the answers but I do think more than one river route must have been involved in the CW genesis.

My current favoured L51 route is middle Dniester (forest steppe Yamnaya)-south Poland-then following the Oder to the west Baltic shore-then westwards ho

alan
12-18-2020, 11:30 AM
Another thing is that although very early L151 or its immediate L51 ancestor clearly went west by a northern route, there are significant hints that smaller non-L151 L51 did take a southern route at some point. To do so, it probably remained on the steppe and later moved into the Danube, perhaps in post-Yamnaya times. Its even possible (but by no means certain) that an extremely early side branch of L151 ended up on the Danube as L151xP312xU106 was found in Csepel associated with a Danube area culture. It is of course possible that it got there from the north following the same route that Csepel used so it doesnt prove that a little early L151 did come from the steppes by the Danube route. The sample is too late to be sure either way.

rms2
12-18-2020, 02:19 PM
Anything is possible, I guess, but it doesn't seem likely to me that steppe pastoralists used to rolling around on the relatively treeless plain would march up north into the forest zone before hanging a left and heading west. Maybe that's what happened, but it just strikes me as unlikely.

I lived for awhile in Moscow up in the forest zone. Things have changed a lot since the 3rd millennium BC, but the forests in the forest zone in that area were probably even thicker then than they are now, and they are pretty thick now. I guess people on horseback and in wagons could wend their way around and between the trees, bumping over the big roots, ducking the low-hanging branches, but that doesn't strike me as the natural thing for them.

I also spent a lot of time in Volgograd (my wife's home town) on the steppe. It's not as pretty as the forest zone, with its white birches, but it's wide open and essentially flat: a lot easier for horses and wagons and livestock. I could be wrong, but I think the steppe people bound for central Europe took the steppe path and stayed on it as long as they could.

Probably we will never know the exact route R1b-L51 took into Europe west of the steppe, but it seems to me SE Poland, the Malopolska and Sokal Ridge area, is the likeliest gateway. Probably the steppe people heading west saw the Carpathians rising like a wall in the west and sought to go around them. Going north up the Prut and Dniester valleys was a way to do that.

Of course, these are just my opinions, and I am certainly no expert.

One of those opinions is that the idea of the "CWC-X horizon" mentioned by Anna Linderholm, apparently confirmed by the ochre burials in Hubinek in SE Poland, and dated to 3000-2900 BC, i.e., at the very genesis of Corded Ware, is significant for both the origin of Corded Ware and for tracing the route the steppe people took into central Europe.

It seems to me, right now at least, that some variety of Yamnaya, mostly young males, made its way north up the Prut and/or Dniester valleys, skirting the east side of the Carpathian obstruction. Once they got past those mountains, they turned west into SE Poland. Along the way, they acquired GAC and maybe TRB women and bred with them, producing offspring who started to look genetically like Corded Ware, with a little less Yamnaya DNA (but still the biggest component of their autosomal make-up).

Eventually their descendants in north-central Europe would establish the Single Grave rite and spin off the Bell Beaker culture, which retained its essential steppe character but with a change of emphasis to archery and - maybe - with the adoption of some cultural odds and ends of southwestern European origin.

The percentage of Yamnaya DNA declined as time went on, as the descendants of these people moved farther west and continued to interbreed with various locals, which is why Corded Ware has a little less Yamnaya DNA than Yamnaya itself, and Beaker has a little less Yamnaya DNA than Corded Ware.

Just my take on things, which is subject to revision as we learn more.

rms2
12-18-2020, 06:39 PM
Well, this is embarrassing: Had to fix my R1b Corded Ware map yet again to reflect the right little town called Szczytna in Poland. Skeletons 5-12 are all right in the same general area in SE Poland, so they're all lumped together in the same symbolic circle. Of course, the locations are all ballpark. I wasn't trying to do a pinpoint map.

I learned a lesson about Polish geography and culture: when they hit on a name for a town, if they think it's a good one, they repeat it again and again!

41811

rms2
12-18-2020, 08:42 PM
Bored and shooting my mouth off today. I fiddled with the Nordqvist and Heyd map again to reflect my own personal opinions based on what we know thus far.

I think the "CWC-X horizon", i.e., the phase in which Yamnaya transmogrified into incipient Corded Ware, is really important in the sagas of both R1b-L51 and R1a-M417.

For R1b-L51 that may have taken place in and around SE Poland (but not limited to the borders of that single country).

I also think Bell Beaker was a spin-off of Single Grave Corded Ware. Really understanding that had to wait for the advent of archaeogenetics, because the Spanish Model really goofed things up for a long long time.

41821

alan
12-18-2020, 09:41 PM
Anything is possible, I guess, but it doesn't seem likely to me that steppe pastoralists used to rolling around on the relatively treeless plain would march up north into the forest zone before hanging a left and heading west. Maybe that's what happened, but it just strikes me as unlikely.

I lived for awhile in Moscow up in the forest zone. Things have changed a lot since the 3rd millennium BC, but the forests in the forest zone in that area were probably even thicker then than they are now, and they are pretty thick now. I guess people on horseback and in wagons could wend their way around and between the trees, bumping over the big roots, ducking the low-hanging branches, but that doesn't strike me as the natural thing for them.

I also spent a lot of time in Volgograd (my wife's home town) on the steppe. It's not as pretty as the forest zone, with its white birches, but it's wide open and essentially flat: a lot easier for horses and wagons and livestock. I could be wrong, but I think the steppe people bound for central Europe took the steppe path and stayed on it as long as they could.

Probably we will never know the exact route R1b-L51 took into Europe west of the steppe, but it seems to me SE Poland, the Malopolska and Sokal Ridge area, is the likeliest gateway. Probably the steppe people heading west saw the Carpathians rising like a wall in the west and sought to go around them. Going north up the Prut and Dniester valleys was a way to do that.

Of course, these are just my opinions, and I am certainly no expert.

One of those opinions is that the idea of the "CWC-X horizon" mentioned by Anna Linderholm, apparently confirmed by the ochre burials in Hubinek in SE Poland, and dated to 3000-2900 BC, i.e., at the very genesis of Corded Ware, is significant for both the origin of Corded Ware and for tracing the route the steppe people took into central Europe.

It seems to me, right now at least, that some variety of Yamnaya, mostly young males, made its way north up the Prut and/or Dniester valleys, skirting the east side of the Carpathian obstruction. Once they got past those mountains, they turned west into SE Poland. Along the way, they acquired GAC and maybe TRB women and bred with them, producing offspring who started to look genetically like Corded Ware, with a little less Yamnaya DNA (but still the biggest component of their autosomal make-up).

Eventually their descendants in north-central Europe would establish the Single Grave rite and spin off the Bell Beaker culture, which retained its essential steppe character but with a change of emphasis to archery and - maybe - with the adoption of some cultural odds and ends of southwestern European origin.

The percentage of Yamnaya DNA declined as time went on, as the descendants of these people moved farther west and continued to interbreed with various locals, which is why Corded Ware has a little less Yamnaya DNA than Yamnaya itself, and Beaker has a little less Yamnaya DNA than Corded Ware.

Just my take on things, which is subject to revision as we learn more.

I pretty well 100% agree. There are little oddities like that L151xU106xP312 Nagyrév child on Csepel Island.

alan
12-18-2020, 10:57 PM
Ive been looking closely at maps of where SE Poland and Ukraine meet. The Dniester route leads close to the SE corner of Poland where the San River (a tribrutary of the Upper Vistula is located. If you follow the San River, north you soon are faced with a choice around Samdomierz to take the follow the Vistula north (ultimately arriving at the Baltic at the Gulf of Gdansk) or to follow the uppermost part of the Vistula west to Kracow and Katowice. If you made the latter decision you would face a stretch of higher land before entering the uppermost part of the Oder River then moving west along it through Wroclaw etc before it turned sharply north to follow the Polish-German border to the Baltic (Pomeranian Bay). You can see how the two great rivers of Poland present two obvious routes through Poland and how a big decision in SE Poland around Samdomierz would present two very different routes that ultimately both led to the Baltic albeit 360km apart. One took the traveler through through the south, SW, west and north-west Poland/German border while the other took the traveler through central to NE Poland close to the Baltic States. Its hard not to conclude that L51 took the former route which in modern terms would roughly be Jarislaw, Samdomierz-Krakow-Katawice, close to Auschwitz -Wroclaw-then the Polish German border to the Baltic. The southern stretch of that route would also allows penetration into the Czech area by passes south for any adventurous splitters off from the main group.

rms2
12-19-2020, 06:34 PM
I've been making kind of a big deal of the CWC-X horizon, 3000-2900 BC, because it is supposed to represent the transition or transformation phase of Yamnaya to incipient Corded Ware.

Here's mention of it again from pages 2-3 of Linderholm et al, Corded Ware cultural complexity uncovered using genomic and isotopic analysis from south-eastern Poland (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63138-w):


At the same time, the possibility that steppe communities dispersed into Małopolska regions was indicated - starting from the turn of the fourth and third millennium BCE. This phenomenon, called the "CWC-X horizon" [10, 13, 14], would precede the rather static formalisation of the CWC barrow ritual, i.e. the A horizon. Until recently, this was only a theoretical idea. Recently, this has been confirmed with the discovery of graves with skeletons coloured with ochre in burials at site 2 in Hubinek (https://goo.gl/maps/7n28BMjUeY981HFC7), dated to 3000-2900 BCE . . .


If, as some scholars believe, one of the routes into central Europe from the steppe was north up the Dniester River valley, skirting the east side of the Carpathians, a turn west around the north side of that mountain range brings one right into Małopolska. That's where Hubinek (https://goo.gl/maps/7n28BMjUeY981HFC7) is, which is apparently a CWC-X horizon burial site, with early CW burials that employed red ochre.

As I mentioned before, Hubinek is less than 2 miles east of Łubcze (https://goo.gl/maps/narJASYTUSzwGcbq5), where three R1b CW skeletons were recovered, one R1b-M269, the others R1b-L52. Five other R1b CW skeletons were recovered in that same area, not far away. Of course, those eight are quite a bit younger than the burials at Hubinek, but at least we know L51 was in the area and connected to Corded Ware.

Anyway, here's a map of Poland that might be helpful. I marked the approximate location of Hubinek on it. You can see how close to Poland the headwaters of the Dniester River are. Following the Dniester north brings one right to the threshold of Małopolska.

That wasn't the only route into central Europe from the steppe, but I think it was an important one.

Sure hope we get some ancient genomes from the CWC-X horizon burials at Hubinek.

41830

rms2
12-19-2020, 07:51 PM
Sorry to repeatedly bug you with my goofy maps, but here's one I think makes clear what I think probably happened. I realize this is just my opinion.

41843

Notice the name "Podkarpacie" in the southern part of Małopolska. That indicates the Subcarpathian Voivodeship.

That tells you the proximity of the Carpathians to this region and indicates how a people coming up the east side of the Carpathians via the Dniester valley gets funneled right into Małopolska unless really determined to go someplace else.

rms2
12-21-2020, 05:46 AM
Making maps and graphics helps me to learn and remember, and it's kind of fun.

Of course, I've been a teacher for over 25 years, so there's that. It's kind of a habit of mind.

But man, I wish those new papers with all that L51 would appear. I'm ready to update all my stuff.

rms2
12-21-2020, 05:49 AM
BTW, I was looking back at some of the dumb things I've had to say, and it struck me that Rich Rocca was right in a lot of ways very early on, especially when it comes to identifying Corded Ware with the advent of R1b-L51.

So, where is Rich?

MitchellSince1893
12-21-2020, 06:36 AM
This is from 2016 article. Not sure if the discussion is purely related to ceramics or possibly to people as well. Anyway here it is for your reading pleasure.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311273975_Exchange_of_People_Ideas_and_Things_betw een_Cucuteni-Trypillian_Complex_and_Areas_of_South-Eastern_Poland/link/58406e4a08ae2d21755f34f4/download


Złota Culture can be interpreted as a stylistically distinct, intermediate stage
between the Globular Amphorae culture and Corded Ware culture, which was not occurring
on the other territories (Furholt, 2008, p. 20-22; Włodarczak, 2008, p. 555-561). This local
phenomenon was a part of the broader processes which took place mainly in south-eastern
Europe (the eastern Balkans, Ukraine and Moldova), resulting in a profound civilizational
change, i.e. the creation of the great cultural complex of Corded Ware culture (fig. 15).


The communities of the Globular Amphora culture (fig. 12) migrated from the
north-west, from eastern Poland, towards the Danube Delta and as far as the Dnieper in the
east, while the multicultural population from the areas around the mouth of the Danube
moved in the opposite direction, carrying with them cultural elements from Thrace, or even
from Anatolia. Some of them returned to the starting point (to south-eastern Poland),
bringing with them a new form of pottery, so-called Thuringian amphora, borrowed from
the late Trypillian Usatovo group. This resulted in origins of the Złota culture (fig. 12), a
cultural phenomenon that gave beginnings to the oldest Corded Ware culture. Inventories
of both cultures contained the already mentioned Thuringian amphorae.

etrusco
12-21-2020, 09:34 AM
This is from 2016 article. Not sure if the discussion is purely related to ceramics or possibly to people as well. Anyway here it is for your reading pleasure.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311273975_Exchange_of_People_Ideas_and_Things_betw een_Cucuteni-Trypillian_Complex_and_Areas_of_South-Eastern_Poland/link/58406e4a08ae2d21755f34f4/download

Presence of GAC folks in central Ukraine ( Dereivka) is also confirmed by ancient dna:

sample": "Ukraine_Eneolithic:I4110",
"fit": 3.4225,
"Globular_Amphora_Ukraine": 42.5,
"Progress_Eneolithic": 30,
"SHG": 19.17,
"EHG": 7.5,
"WHG": 0.83,
"LBK_N": 0,

I think the age of the sample is around 3500 BC

razyn
12-21-2020, 03:46 PM
BTW, I was looking back at some of the dumb things I've had to say, and it struck me that Rich Rocca was right in a lot of ways very early on, especially when it comes to identifying Corded Ware with the advent of R1b-L51.

So, where is Rich?

Hiding over here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-Genetic-Genealogy-amp-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-(DISCUSSION-ONLY)&p=730261&viewfull=1#post730261

rms2
12-21-2020, 07:05 PM
Hiding over here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-Genetic-Genealogy-amp-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-(DISCUSSION-ONLY)&p=730261&viewfull=1#post730261

I watch that thread. That's a rare appearance.

He hasn't been posting much here at Anthrogenica lately.

rms2
12-21-2020, 07:10 PM
Presence of GAC folks in central Ukraine ( Dereivka) is also confirmed by ancient dna:

sample": "Ukraine_Eneolithic:I4110",
"fit": 3.4225,
"Globular_Amphora_Ukraine": 42.5,
"Progress_Eneolithic": 30,
"SHG": 19.17,
"EHG": 7.5,
"WHG": 0.83,
"LBK_N": 0,

I think the age of the sample is around 3500 BC

It seems to me pretty plain that GAC females provided the Neolithic farmer component in the genetic make-up of Corded Ware, and GAC itself was built upon a TRB base.

There were GAC and TRB cultural influences, as well, even on the style of the stone axes manufactured by Corded Ware.

alan
12-21-2020, 10:54 PM
Yeah I do remember RR as one of the early people to go against the strange trend on Anthrogenica back then where implying beaker and/or P312/L151 was related to CW was almost seen as heretical. I never understood why. CW was the only culture between the steppe and western Europe capable of filling the huge geographical gap between Yamnaya and bell beaker. All other possibilities involved a more southern route and a huge amount of special pleading and never felt right. Beaker intuitively always felt culturally like the wayward son or non identical twin brother of CW with oppositional defiant tendencies.

alan
12-21-2020, 11:16 PM
One thing that still puzzles me is that bell beaker burial orientation positions are very similar to Swedish battle axe. There are other CW groups with beaker-like burial positions and orientations in eastern Europe. Even Fatyanovo has some beaker-like aspects to it but its predates beaker (most modern dating effort says c 2750BC). I wonder if the beaker-like burial beliefs spread by the northern seas? Starting in the Baltic and somehow spreading from there. I still cant fully put together a model that explains the way this beaker-like alternative to the classic east-west male-right side CW tradition spread. But Swedish battle axe and other indicators suggest to me that this beaker-like alternative did exist from early CW times. It'd be interesting to know more about Swedish battle axe yDNA. It would be a real eye opener if it turned out to be L151 dominated and it had arrived from the Oder mouth area.

rms2
12-21-2020, 11:39 PM
One thing that still puzzles me is that bell beaker burial orientation positions are very similar to Swedish battle axe. There are other CW groups with beaker-like burial positions and orientations in eastern Europe. Even Fatyanovo has some beaker-like aspects to it but its predates beaker (most modern dating effort says c 2750BC). I wonder if the beaker-like burial beliefs spread by the northern seas? Starting in the Baltic and somehow spreading from there. I still cant fully put together a model that explains the way this beaker-like alternative to the classic east-west male-right side CW tradition spread. But Swedish battle axe and other indicators suggest to me that this beaker-like alternative did exist from early CW times. It'd be interesting to know more about Swedish battle axe yDNA. It would be a real eye opener if it turned out to be L151 dominated and it had arrived from the Oder mouth area.

According to Marc Heise's "Heads North or East? A Re-Examination of Beaker Burials in Britain", some of the CW burials in Małopolska had Beaker orientation.

41878

TigerMW
12-22-2020, 12:52 AM
Yeah I do remember RR as one of the early people to go against the strange trend on Anthrogenica back then where implying beaker and/or P312/L151 was related to CW was almost seen as heretical.
I didn't know much, and still don't, about Corded Ware but to me it was always the highest probability that P312 came from the north side of the Carpathians not south. You could tell that by just looking at Poland and P312 STR diversity, even before SNPs. Then you add U106, a northern clade, and U106 and P312's common ancestor just is not much time before them. The next genetic clue was L238 and DF19. We get mesmerized by the huge modern populations of Z290>L21, U152 and DF27 but L238, DF19 and DF99 are just as early of branches from P312. The modern population sizes matter little. L238 and DF19 are definitely northern and possibly DF99.

I concede I accepted David Anthony's theory that Italics and Celtics came from a "true folk migration" of Yamnaya people up the Danube. That makes sense but at this timeframe, R1b-L151 didn't need massive flow. The MRCA and/or his close-in descendents didn't need to be big group before the big expansion.

I just checked Dr. Mike Hammer's presentation from 2008. He didn't know about DF27 but he did have SYR2627 coming from north-central Europe down into Iberia. I thought he might have P312 in Poland but no he has P312 in the Balkans and coming west first then north, to just northwest of the Carpathians.

Well I shouldn't say much. I don't understand how Corded Ware formed. Some people they have it forming out Yamnaya in Central-East Europe and in others a little more eastward out of pre-Yamnaya in the Steppes as a sister. I'm still grapplin with Heyd, etc. 2020. I probably have read too much into David Anthony's book.

rms2
12-22-2020, 01:19 AM
I think if you read back through this thread a few pages you'll see that the current thinking is that Yamnaya came up via the Dniester valley, or maybe the Prut and Dniester valleys, hung a left to go west around the north side of the Carpathians into SE Poland, and along the way somehow transmogrified into Corded Ware.

That seems reasonable to me when we think of Yamnaya as a broad steppe pastoralist horizon, largely a single autosomal DNA pool, dominated in different spots in its different tribes by different Y-DNA haplogroups, mostly R1b-L23 (both Z2103 and L51) and R1a-M417.

A couple of years ago I was really impressed with how ahead of her time Gimbutas was, so for a while I thought her idea was right that Beaker was the product of the melding of Yamnaya and Vucedol in the Carpathian basin.

Time and ancient DNA results have convinced me that she was wrong on that score, and that Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware.

Oh, but I still think Gimbutas was ahead of her time and pretty cool. Too bad she's not around now to rework some of her ideas in the light of archaeogenetics.

rms2
12-22-2020, 02:37 AM
Yeah I do remember RR as one of the early people to go against the strange trend on Anthrogenica back then where implying beaker and/or P312/L151 was related to CW was almost seen as heretical . . .

Not to seem overly critical of her - she's not here to defend herself, after all - but Jean Manco was one who stressed the differences between BB and CW. She argued strenuously, it seemed to me, against the idea that BB was derived from CW.

My impression is that Jean was really influenced by the Spanish Model and the early rc dates for Iberian Bell Beaker. That's why she came up with her "Stelae People" idea: to get Yamnaya around to Iberia to account for the obvious steppe pastoralist nature of BB while at the same time saving the Spanish Model and the early Iberian rc dates by bringing BB out of Iberia.

That was the way she saw it: BB was both a product of the steppe and an out-of-Iberia phenomenon. So she brought the steppe to Iberia as the prologue to the eastward spread of BB into the rest of Europe.

Ancient DNA shot that idea down in flames. Now we know that BB did not emerge from Iberia, not genomically, anyway.

Silesian
12-22-2020, 06:10 PM
Comparing styles of pottery (point based/flat based)from Europe with the Sredny Stog-Dereivka- Samara-Yamnaya region.
Protruding-Foot Beaker culture, subset of the Single Grave culture

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Museum_f%C3%BCr_Vor-_und_Fr%C3%BChgeschichte_Berlin_028.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/erenow.com/ancient/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language.files/image071.jpg

rms2
12-22-2020, 08:03 PM
I think those pointed pots must have been designed for sticking down into the wood of a fire. Otherwise, they wouldn't stand up on their own.

Corded Ware pots were kind of like the Budzhak variety of Yamnaya pottery, and, of course, Beaker culture pots were derived from Corded Ware pots.

41885

Budzhak Yamnaya burials were a lot like Corded Ware and Beaker burials, as well.

41887

alan
12-23-2020, 09:46 AM
I think if you read back through this thread a few pages you'll see that the current thinking is that Yamnaya came up via the Dniester valley, or maybe the Prut and Dniester valleys, hung a left to go west around the north side of the Carpathians into SE Poland, and along the way somehow transmogrified into Corded Ware.

That seems reasonable to me when we think of Yamnaya as a broad steppe pastoralist horizon, largely a single autosomal DNA pool, dominated in different spots in its different tribes by different Y-DNA haplogroups, mostly R1b-L23 (both Z2103 and L51) and R1a-M417.

A couple of years ago I was really impressed with how ahead of her time Gimbutas was, so for a while I thought her idea was right that Beaker was the product of the melding of Yamnaya and Vucedol in the Carpathian basin.

Time and ancient DNA results have convinced me that she was wrong on that score, and that Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware.

Oh, but I still think Gimbutas was ahead of her time and pretty cool. Too bad she's not around now to rework some of her ideas in the light of archaeogenetics.

She was amazing. Without peer until Mallory came along.

alan
12-23-2020, 10:09 AM
Not to seem overly critical of her - she's not here to defend herself, after all - but Jean Manco was one who stressed the differences between BB and CW. She argued strenuously, it seemed to me, against the idea that BB was derived from CW.

My impression is that Jean was really influenced by the Spanish Model and the early rc dates for Iberian Bell Beaker. That's why she came up with her "Stelae People" idea: to get Yamnaya around to Iberia to account for the obvious steppe pastoralist nature of BB while at the same time saving the Spanish Model and the early Iberian rc dates by bringing BB out of Iberia.

That was the way she saw it: BB was both a product of the steppe and an out-of-Iberia phenomenon. So she brought the steppe to Iberia as the prologue to the eastward spread of BB into the rest of Europe.

Ancient DNA shot that idea down in flames. Now we know that BB did not emerge from Iberia, not genomically, anyway.

I think she wrote the best most readable full-book summaries of the whole archaeology-history-linguistic-DNA package yet put in print. Pretty amazing achievement when you consider she was not an archaeologist, linguist or trained DNA person. She was a historian of buildings. But she did take a giant wrong turn on the beaker-stelae people thing which had a knock-on effect on a lot of other things. There was a whole stack of implausibilities and leaps of faith in it and I was kind of baffled that someone that was otherwise so very thorough and systematic chose to set the bar of evidence so low for that theory. Bottom line is there was nothing remotely steppe-like about the archaeology of Iberia and southern France c. 3100-2500BC. It was all megaliths and complex fortified villages. I could see the temptation to make later Remedello part of the story (which was also wrong) but I just could not see any evidence in Iberia or southern France.

Silesian
12-23-2020, 03:49 PM
I think those pointed pots must have been designed for sticking down into the wood of a fire. Otherwise, they wouldn't stand up on their own.

Corded Ware pots were kind of like the Budzhak variety of Yamnaya pottery, and, of course, Beaker culture pots were derived from Corded Ware pots.

41885

Budzhak Yamnaya burials were a lot like Corded Ware and Beaker burials, as well.

41887

More questions, deeper in time.
Is there a deeper connection with these types of pointed end(versus flat bottom) Hunter Gatherer Eastern European Volga- Northern Baltic-Narva-- pointed pottery and R1b-M73 and M269>L51/Z2103--- lineages from Sredny Stog regions like Dereivka,Yamnaya,Afanasievo pottery?

https://www.iaw.unibe.ch/unibe/portal/fak_historisch/dga/iaw/content/e39439/e39442/e126727/e623800/files889795/Marta_Andriiovych_PA_Diss_A_ger.pdf

etrusco
12-23-2020, 05:21 PM
More questions, deeper in time.
Is there a deeper connection with these types of pointed end(versus flat bottom) Hunter Gatherer Eastern European Volga- Northern Baltic-Narva-- pointed pottery and R1b-M73 and M269>L51/Z2103--- lineages from Sredny Stog regions like Dereivka,Yamnaya,Afanasievo pottery?

https://www.iaw.unibe.ch/unibe/portal/fak_historisch/dga/iaw/content/e39439/e39442/e126727/e623800/files889795/Marta_Andriiovych_PA_Diss_A_ger.pdf

just as a food for tought I give you some possible hints at the genetic profile of Ukraine Neo ( and Meso too)

41909

Silesian
12-23-2020, 06:18 PM
just as a food for tought I give you some possible hints at the genetic profile of Ukraine Neo ( and Meso too)

41909

One - What’s the Point?: Globalization and the Emergence of Ceramic-using Hunter-gatherers in Northern Eurasia

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/globalization-in-prehistory/whats-the-point-globalization-and-the-emergence-of-ceramicusing-huntergatherers-in-northern-eurasia/73961C8D65FD4D3AED9861F68969BB4E/core-reader



1.4 Hunter-gatherer pottery in western Eurasia: (a) Ertebřlle Pottery, (b) Neman Pottery (Lysaya Gora), (c) Narva Culture, (d) Saraisniemi Pottery, (e) Sperrings Pottery, (f) Early Northern Comb Ware (Nerpich’ya Guba), (g) Early Bug-Dniester Culture (Sokol’tsy), (h) Early Dniepr-Donets Culture (Bondarikha II), (i) Sursk Culture (Stril’chya Skelya), (j) Middle Don Culture (Savintskoe), (k) Upper Volga Culture (Torgovishche), (l) Elshanka Pottery (Ivanovka), (m) Vis I, (n) Kama Neolithic (Khutorskaya), (o) Koshkinskaya Pottery, (p) Sumpanya Pottery (Sumpan’ya IV).

Sredny Stog-Dereivka also has pointed shaped pottery- could it be linked with any of the older cultures in red?

rms2
12-30-2020, 01:55 AM
This is still one of my favorite topics. It has enlivened many an otherwise boring day.

Hope I live to see the motherlode - or fatherlode - of ancient R1b-L51 that is supposed to be on its way.

That should be fun.

rms2
01-06-2021, 01:40 AM
Here's my latest adaptation of the recent Nordqvist and Heyd Map.

42350

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2021, 03:56 PM
From “Anthony 2021 Migration nomads from the east IEMA SUNY Buffalo
David Anthony”


https://www.academia.edu/44892216/Anthony_2021_Migration_nomads_from_the_east_IEMA_S UNY_Buffalo


Radiocarbon dates show that there was an initial phase of migration from the steppes into the lower Danube valley and sporadically into the middle Danube valley, to the Hungarian plain, about 3100 BC (the ‘scouts’ in a processual model), followed by a massive migration about 3000 BC into targeted regions in both the lower and middle Danube valleys (Frînculeasa et al. 2017). These more numerous migrants after 3000 BC created hundreds of kurgans in the Hungarian plain south of the Carpathian Mountains.
The oldest Corded Ware sites seem just from proximity to have been derived from this Hungarian group, and appeared ca. 2900-2700 BC in the Czech Republic and Slovakia within the mountain environment and also just north of the Carpathians in southern and central Poland. Yamnaya ancestry of the Corded Ware type then rapidly expanded across northern Europe, largely replacing the genetic lineages of the Neolithic population.

So he’s still for a South of the Carpathian route via Danube into Hungary

Another interesting quote


One of the remarkable aspects of the Yamnaya migrations into central Europe was that people of the largely-immigrant-descended Corded Ware and mostly local Globular Amphorae cultures remained genetically quite distinct for centuries (Wang et al. 2018) while occupying different parts of the same landscape (Czebreszuk and Szmyt 2011; Machnik 1999). This reluctance to marry across the migrant-local social divide would be consistent with hostile relations. But as we will see, artifactual and stylistic sharing point towards a modicum of integration. Political alliances might have operated between the two groups, particularly during the brief period when the Corded Ware package was formed.

The recombination of material cultural types and customs that happened at that moment of transformation created a material culture and set of funerary practices sufficiently distinctive so that archaeologists could not detect the underlying genetic connections between the Corded Ware and Yamnaya populations, or perceive the migration processes that connected them, until whole genomes became available



Also this quote
Whole genomes testify that immigrant Corded Ware and local Globular Amphorae mating networks remained largely distinct and separate for 500 years while they shared the same landscapes. So the integration of local Middle Neolithic weapon and pottery styles into Corded Ware migrant material culture was not equated with an equivalent level of integration in mating behaviors or kin-based networks

I thought previous studies indicated there was a mixture between a Yamnaya and GAC like populations. Maybe this was in reference to Bell Beaker.

He does address this here



mostly males made it as far west as Germany, where genetically Yamnaya males who practiced Corded Ware customs mated with females from local agriculturalist ancestry. The western aspect of Corded Ware seems to have been created by a more specialized, male-biased migration process probably driven by prestige-seeking behavior.

Ref to SGC?

rms2
01-15-2021, 12:18 AM
I found this from page 14 promising:



We need data from many more Yamnaya individuals and regions in order to determine where the migration process began, or whether migrants came from all regions. That much-needed data collection and analysis is now under way.

I enjoyed the paper, but Anthony seemed unaware when he wrote it of the recent spate of R1b-L51 finds in Corded Ware.

rms2
01-15-2021, 12:28 AM
. . .
So he’s still for a South of the Carpathian route via Danube into Hungary . . .


Sure sounds that way. I think he is blown away by the sheer number of kurgans in the eastern Hungarian Plain, and that is influencing him.

Seems to me a route north up the Dniester/Prut/Bug valleys, around the east and north sides of the Carpathians, and into SE Poland makes more sense.

Maybe they did it all.

Webb
01-15-2021, 12:52 AM
Sure sounds that way. I think he is blown away by the sheer number of kurgans in the eastern Hungarian Plain, and that is influencing him.

Seems to me a route north up the Dniester/Prut/Bug valleys, around the east and north sides of the Carpathians, and into SE Poland makes more sense.

Maybe they did it all.

A topographical map of Europe is pretty telling. North of the Carpathians looks like a much easier route to travel. I certainly wouldn’t want to rush headlong through a pass into Hungary and then be penned in on all sides by mountains unless I had shear numbers on my side.

Silesian
01-15-2021, 02:02 AM
I found this from page 14 promising:



I enjoyed the paper, but Anthony seemed unaware when he wrote it of the recent spate of R1b-L51 finds in Corded Ware.
I was under the impression that South East Poland Corded Ware R1b-L51 had a connection to R1b-Z2109 Afanasievo-Yamnaya?

MitchellSince1893
01-15-2021, 02:15 AM
Sure sounds that way. I think he is blown away by the sheer number of kurgans in the eastern Hungarian Plain, and that is influencing him.

Seems to me a route north up the Dniester/Prut/Bug valleys, around the east and north sides of the Carpathians, and into SE Poland makes more sense.

Maybe they did it all.
Either he knows something we don’t or old habits die hard. That Danube route has been all the rage for some time now. Those who proposed the North of the Carpathian route have definitely been into minority until recently.

razyn
01-15-2021, 02:53 AM
Either he knows something we don’t or old habits die hard. That Danube route has been all the rage for some time now. Those who proposed the North of the Carpathian route have definitely been into minority until recently.

In some circles, we still are. Some inhabitants of the Facebook group for R1b YDNA Project have gone home to alternative facts, or whatever, for a couple of days. P312 forming in the Balkans/Adriatic, U152 south of the Alps, DF27 on the Mediterranean shores just north of the Pyrenees, and whatnot. I'm finding it hard to switch back and forth from one conversation to another.

Silesian
01-15-2021, 04:13 AM
Where exactly did R1a-m417 and R1b-L51 meet up? Did they travel together? What language did they originate from? R1b-Z2209 and R1b- L51 both travelled to Afansievo, they must have shared the same language, pottery, wagons, metallurgy, Yersinia pestis plague.. We need some in depth analysis on those South Eastern R1b Corded Ware samples to rule out being connected to Yamnaya Hungary!

MitchellSince1893
01-15-2021, 04:34 AM
In some circles, we still are. Some inhabitants of the Facebook group for R1b YDNA Project have gone home to alternative facts, or whatever, for a couple of days. P312 forming in the Balkans/Adriatic, U152 south of the Alps, DF27 on the Mediterranean shores just north of the Pyrenees, and whatnot. I'm finding it hard to switch back and forth from one conversation to another.

I know you know this, but the oldest ZZ11 sample (DF27 & U152 shared ancestor), RISE563 (U152+), was found north of the Alps, ~165 years before the oldest DF27 recently found in SW France. That's roughly 5-6 generations prior.

I used to think that RISE563 was coming from the East, but he could very well have been coming from a SGC origin along the Rhine. Who knows? Maybe one day we will. We've come a long ways from R1b descends from Cro Magnons and Ice Age Refugiums thinking...well some of us have.

I still like the simplicity of P312 having explosive growth in/near the Black Forest north of the Alps (where Rhine, Danube, and Rhone sources come near each other inside red rectangle), with some L21 heading down the Rhine to cross to the Isles (Amesbury Archer L21 may have originated near the alps according to isotopic analysis), some U152 heading down the Danube (RISE563 is found near the Danube in Bavaria), and some DF27 heading down the Rhone and on into Iberia (near where oldest DF27 was found).

Obligatory map
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/76/41/f67641f5f044cf0d0d716d89f9f32267.png

Silesian
01-15-2021, 06:02 AM
I really can't think of a better opportunity to show the connection of Corded Ware R1b South East Poland with either R1a- M417 and Sredny Stog Alexandria or Hungary Yamnaya Z-2109+ before more results are released. Hopefully were not going into silent cricket mode again.

Tolan
01-15-2021, 07:36 AM
Either he knows something we don’t or old habits die hard. That Danube route has been all the rage for some time now. Those who proposed the North of the Carpathian route have definitely been into minority until recently.

Every time I read that the possible way by the North of the Carpathians, I think of my map which I made a little while ago:
Possible passages of descendants L51 (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1eU04cPBN2nMfq7NoXKJHHtd4f_oyte8Y&ll=50.26612778889629%2C15.060328437499976&z=5)


I took it for granted that the migration of the descendants of L51 took place from East to West.
I therefore took the midpoint of each haplogroup in the current populations, but first taking those of the extreme East then gradually more to the West.
This gives an overview of the lines on the North / South axis.

Surprisingly, L21, U106, DF27 seem to pass "by chance?" through the Bug valleys between Belarus and Poland.
U152 remains on a line more towards Central Europe.
I do not guarantee the accuracy of the method, but it should not be forgotten that there are a lot of L21, DF27 ect in Poland for example.
I think these all sub haplogroups were born in Eastern Europe.

rms2
01-15-2021, 01:05 PM
Where exactly did R1a-m417 and R1b-L51 meet up? Did they travel together? What language did they originate from? R1b-Z2209 and R1b- L51 both travelled to Afansievo, they must have shared the same language, pottery, wagons, metallurgy, Yersinia pestis plague.. We need some in depth analysis on those South Eastern R1b Corded Ware samples to rule out being connected to Yamnaya Hungary!

It seems to me what Anthony says on pages 14-15 about the various clans and their dominant patrilines makes sense.



Later Corded Ware populations, although derived from Yamnaya ancestry, were largely Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a, which had been present in the steppes during the Eneolithic and could have remained present but been excluded from kurgans through the Yamnaya era, reemerging as a dominant male lineage in in [sic] the Corded Ware population. This shifting of male lineages within a broadly related set of steppe-derived populations could indicate a succession of restricted male-defined clans gaining access to political power and to memorialization under prominent burial mounds while excluding other males from such positions. The regionally suppressed patrilines such as those that inherited the R1a haplotype would in this case have become almost invisible archaeologically in the steppes because of their exclusion from Yamnaya kurgan graves, but then emerged as migrants in central Europe. Social and political competition between patrilines could have encouraged migration to new regions. But if burial under a kurgan was restricted in this way, then aDNA is sampling only the dominant elite, not the whole population. Many questions about variability within Yamnaya sites, and the sources and causes of variability, remain to be answered.

Just substitute R1b-L51 for R1a in the passage above or add it to the passage. Probably the clans/families in which R1b-L51 and/or R1a were dominant did not come to the forefront of political power until adventurous males bearing those haplogroups left the steppe, went west, and fathered a lot of male offspring.

There is still a lot of be discovered about the genetic make-up of Yamnaya.

As far as language is concerned, it was the common collection of PIE dialects, which did not really cease to be mutually intelligible until somewhen around 2500 BC. That's a very rough date, of course.

Silesian
01-15-2021, 01:41 PM
It seems to me what Anthony says on pages 14-15 about the various clans and their dominant patrilines makes sense.



Just substitute R1b-L51 for R1a in the passage above or add it to the passage. Probably the clans/families in which R1b-L51 and/or R1a were dominant did not come to the forefront of political power until adventurous males bearing those haplogroups left the steppe, went west, and fathered a lot of male offspring.

There is still a lot of be discovered about the genetic make-up of Yamnaya.

As far as language is concerned, it was the common collection of PIE dialects, which did not really cease to be mutually intelligible until somewhen around 2500 BC. That's a very rough date, of course.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/
PCW070POL [PL-PK]ageinew

There is not any example of R1a in Afanasievo or Hungarian Bell Beakers. There is evidence of long distance travel and common burials between Afanasievo R1b-Z109 and R1b-L51 in Afanasievo-Mongolia. Likewise, there is also evidence of common burial between Hungarian Eastern Bell Beaker R1b-Z2109 and R1b-L51(around Csepl Island the area with a lot of horse bones). They must have co-operated and spoke the same language to share the same culture and burial customs.
South Eastern Poland basal R1b-L51(yfull above example) is Corded Ware culture- I'm really surprised that in depth study by Polish dna enthusiasts has not been done on these samples. Perhaps R1b Corded Ware clusters with R1b-Z2109+ and R1b-L51+ from the Steppe/Afanasievo or alternatively with R1b-V1636 from Corded Ware- Single Grave Denmark culture. Or perhaps connected with the Yamnaya Hungarian burials?


The Gjerrild stone cist in northern Djursland, eastern Jutland (Fig 1), is remarkable for containing the largest and best-preserved assemblage of SGC skeletons known from Denmark........
The SGC covered an area from the Netherlands to Jutland in Denmark where the Gjerrild grave is located. Our ancient DNA analyses of the Gjerrild skeletons have documented a close genetic relationship with individuals associated with the CWC observed as a steppe-related

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0244872

TigerMW
01-15-2021, 05:54 PM
In some circles, we still are. Some inhabitants of the Facebook group for R1b YDNA Project have gone home to alternative facts, or whatever, for a couple of days. P312 forming in the Balkans/Adriatic, U152 south of the Alps, DF27 on the Mediterranean shores just north of the Pyrenees, and whatnot. I'm finding it hard to switch back and forth from one conversation to another.
I view it as an educational forum. I have to keep reminding people of various things.
When I questioned the "L51 from the Adriatic" idea the reply was that was an old chart.
I think we are getting there, education-wise, but it takes time. It took a long time for Renfrew to wither from his hypothesis. It took a long time for the Iberian R1b refugium to dissipate. The embers are still there but you have to stamp on it from time to time with facts.
Celtic from the West is another area I'm a little concerned will be a sidetrack. I think it is possible, but it can't aligned with the P312 genetics well. First things firsts. You can't figure out Celtic unless you can figure out Bell Beaker, CWC, Unetice, Urnfield, etc.

TigerMW
01-15-2021, 06:17 PM
Obligatory map
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/76/41/f67641f5f044cf0d0d716d89f9f32267.png
One of things I appreciate about this forum as it has forced me to learn the geography of Europe, which helps with understanding history among other things.
For fun and the sake of U152, I think you should add the Rubicon. It's very important no matter if it hardly exists any more.
I just drove up and down Rubicon Road yesterday in Austin. How important is such a river that phrases like "crossing the Rubicon" or "the die has been cast" have been with us to this day. Other than Christ and few religious figures of various types there is not such a man as well known as Julius Caesar. You can see large and expensive statues of him in Las Vegas as well as Rome.
On the other hand, I don't recall ever driving on a Danube Drive or Volga Boulevard or even Seine Street.
https://www.thoughtco.com/meaning-cross-the-rubicon-117548
:)

razyn
01-15-2021, 06:33 PM
I just drove up and down Rubicon Road yesterday in Austin... I don't recall ever driving on a Danube Drive or Volga Boulevard or even Seine Street.

You get stuff like that in Austin, where Teasips are allowed to lay out a subdivision.

But I checked Google maps. If you're eastbound on Stassney Lane, you pretty much have to cross Rubicon on the way to Milano's Pizza. So, there's that.

GoldenHind
01-15-2021, 06:47 PM
I know you know this, but the oldest ZZ11 sample (DF27 & U152 shared ancestor), RISE563 (U152+), was found north of the Alps, ~165 years before the oldest DF27 recently found in SW France. That's roughly 5-6 generations prior.

I used to think that RISE563 was coming from the East, but he could very well have been coming from a SGC origin along the Rhine. Who knows? Maybe one day we will. We've come a long ways from R1b descends from Cro Magnons and Ice Age Refugiums thinking...well some of us have.

I still like the simplicity of P312 having explosive growth in/near the Black Forest north of the Alps (where Rhine, Danube, and Rhone sources come near each other inside red rectangle), with some L21 heading down the Rhine to cross to the Isles (Amesbury Archer L21 may have originated near the alps according to isotopic analysis), some U152 heading down the Danube (RISE563 is found near the Danube in Bavaria), and some DF27 heading down the Rhone and on into Iberia (near where oldest DF27 was found).

Obligatory map
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/76/41/f67641f5f044cf0d0d716d89f9f32267.png

This may work well for L21, DF27 and U152, but I think it is difficult to reconcile it with the other P312 subclades of DF19, DF99 and especially L238, which I think fit better with an expansion from somewhere closer to Denmark or the southern shore of the Baltic. Perhaps from the Elbe or the Oder? I need hardly point out that every P312 subclade is of equal importance in determining the origin and spread of P312.

I have wondered if the little known P312 subclade ZZ37 may provide an important clue. To date this has been primarily found in Britain, especially Wales and Scotland, yet it includes a segment with men of Finnish, Russian and German origins.

rms2
01-15-2021, 06:54 PM
. . .

There is not any example of R1a in Afanasievo or Hungarian Bell Beakers . . .




You didn't mention Hungarian Bell Beakers in the post I was responding to, so you can hardly fault me for not including them.

That's also why I didn't bring up the Hottentots.

I still think there was a big pool of Indo-Europeans speaking roughly the same language and partaking of the same autosomal bank who nevertheless did not all belong to the very same Y-DNA haplogroup. The number of Y-DNA haplogroups was small, but it was greater than one, obviously.

Silesian
01-15-2021, 07:30 PM
You didn't mention Hungarian Bell Beakers in the post I was responding to, so you can hardly fault me for not including them.

That's also why I didn't bring up the Hottentots.

I still think there was a big pool of Indo-Europeans speaking roughly the same language and partaking of the same autosomal bank who nevertheless did not all belong to the very same Y-DNA haplogroup. The number of Y-DNA haplogroups was small, but it was greater than one, obviously.
Crickets chirping, when you want to compare R1b-L51 Poland Rzeszów Foothills to R1b-V1636 in Corded Ware, Denmark Single Grave Culture. R1a-M17 and R1b-L51 Goldilocks scenario?
What explanation will be given when Yamnaya R1b-Z2109 will be found in Corded Ware along side R1b-V1636+?

rms2
01-15-2021, 07:43 PM
Crickets chirping, when you want to compare R1b-L51 Poland Rzeszów Foothills to R1b-V1636 in Corded Ware, Denmark Single Grave Culture. R1a-M17 and R1b-L51 Goldilocks scenario?
What explanation will be given when Yamnaya R1b-Z2109 will be found in Corded Ware along side R1b-V1636+?

Once again, you seem to be expecting me to anticipate your next thought and respond to things you never mentioned.

Think I'll just let your posts go.

Don't think I need an explanation for a finding of Z2109 in Corded Ware. When have I said there never could be such a thing so that I would need to do some splainin'?

What do crickets and Goldilocks have to do with this subject?

rms2
01-15-2021, 07:59 PM
From Reich's Who We Are and How We Got Here, page 119:



But theory is always trumped by data, and the data show that the Yamnaya also made a major demographic impact - in fact, it is clear that the single most important source of ancestry across northern Europe today is Yamnaya or groups closely related to them.

It's also clear that Indo-European languages and culture spread across northern Europe, along with that Yamnaya ancestry.

On the other hand, R1b-Z2103 and its subclades are very small minorities across northern Europe, so obviously other Y-DNA haplogroups were largely responsible for the spread of Yamnaya DNA and IE languages and culture.

That's not an attempt to knock Z2103 and subclades, which were big deals in Yamnaya on the steppe.

But it does show that there was apparently much more to Yamnaya than one single Y-DNA haplogroup.

MitchellSince1893
01-15-2021, 08:16 PM
This may work well for L21, DF27 and U152, but I think it is difficult to reconcile it with the other P312 subclades of DF19, DF99 and especially L238, which I think fit better with an expansion from somewhere closer to Denmark or the southern shore of the Baltic. Perhaps from the Elbe or the Oder? I need hardly point out that every P312 subclade is of equal importance in determining the origin and spread of P312.

I have wondered if the little known P312 subclade ZZ37 may provide an important clue. To date this has been primarily found in Britain, especially Wales and Scotland, yet it includes a segment with men of Finnish, Russian and German origins.
I agree and it’s why I said growth instead of origin, and some L21/U152/DF27 instead of all. These smaller P312 branches and U106 have a center of gravity near the Baltic

rms2
01-15-2021, 08:35 PM
If you were a young, energetic, R1a-M417 or R1b-L51 guy out on the steppe, but your horizons were limited because the R1b-Z2103 families owned all the cows, sheep, goats, etc., wouldn't you light out and seek your fortune elsewhere?

If you belonged to an upper crust Z2103 clan, the urge to migrate might not be so pressing.

Webb
01-15-2021, 08:59 PM
This may work well for L21, DF27 and U152, but I think it is difficult to reconcile it with the other P312 subclades of DF19, DF99 and especially L238, which I think fit better with an expansion from somewhere closer to Denmark or the southern shore of the Baltic. Perhaps from the Elbe or the Oder? I need hardly point out that every P312 subclade is of equal importance in determining the origin and spread of P312.

I have wondered if the little known P312 subclade ZZ37 may provide an important clue. To date this has been primarily found in Britain, especially Wales and Scotland, yet it includes a segment with men of Finnish, Russian and German origins.

I agree with you and I usually mention L238 whenever I can because it might very well end up being one of the most important clues, and most important P312 subclade, in regards to which path was taken by our L51 ancestors into Europe.

Dewsloth
01-15-2021, 11:23 PM
I agree and it’s why I said growth instead of origin, and some L21/U152/DF27 instead of all. These smaller P312 branches and U106 have a center of gravity near the Baltic

It may be just a coincidence, but the fact that subclades like DF19 (maybe also L238 and DF99, not sure) haven't been found anywhere before about 200AD may be at least in part because they came from a tradition that used cremation even in Beaker times. Northern Jutland was such an area.


Connections with other parts of Beaker culture
The Beaker group in northern Jutland forms an integrated part of the western European Beaker Culture, while western Jutland provided a link between the Lower Rhine area and northern Jutland. The local fine-ware pottery of Beaker derivation reveal links with other Beaker regions in western Europe, most specifically the Veluwe group at the Lower Rhine. Concurrent introduction of metallurgy shows that some people must have crossed cultural boundaries. Danish Beakers are contemporary with the earliest Early Bronze Age (EBA) of the East Group of Bell Beakers in central Europe, and with the floruit of Beaker cultures of the West Group in western Europe. The latter comprise Veluwe and Epi-Maritime in Continental northwestern Europe and the Middle Style Beakers (Style 2) in insular western Europe.

The interaction between the Beaker groups on the Veluwe Plain and in Jutland must, at least initially, have been quite intensive. All-over ornamented (AOO) and All-over-corded (AOC), and particularly Maritime style beakers are featured, although from a fairly late context and possibly rather of Epi-maritime style, equivalent to the situation in the north of the Netherlands, where Maritime ornamentation continued after it ceased in the central region of Veluwe and were succeeded c. 2300 BC by beakers of the Veluwe and Epi-Maritime style.[20]

Clusters of Late Neolithic Beaker presence similar to northern Jutland appear as pockets or "islands" of Beaker Culture in northern Europe, such as Mecklenburg, Schleswig-Holstein, and southern Norway.[109][110][111][112][113] In northern central Poland Beaker-like representations even occur in a contemporary EBA setting. The frequent occurrence of Beaker pottery in settlements points at a large-scaled form of social identity or cultural identity, or perhaps an ethnic identity.

Burial practices
In eastern Denmark and Scania one-person graves occur primarily in flat grave cemeteries. This is a continuation of the burial custom characterising the Scanian Battle-axe Culture, often to continue into the early Late Neolithic. Also in northern Jutland, the body of the deceased was normally arranged lying on its back in an extended position, but a typical Bell Beaker contracted position occurs occasionally. Typical to northern Jutland, however, cremations have been reported, also outside the Beaker core area, once within the context of an almost full Bell Beaker equipment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Beaker_culture

^^Also, wasn't the Lilla Beddinge U106 found in a Battle Axe context but autosomally looking more south (Veluwe?)?

Dieu
01-16-2021, 12:52 AM
If you were a young, energetic, R1a-M417 or R1b-L51 guy out on the steppe, but your horizons were limited because the R1b-Z2103 families owned all the cows, sheep, goats, etc., wouldn't you light out and seek your fortune elsewhere?

If you belonged to an upper crust Z2103 clan, the urge to migrate might not be so pressing.

They were so many Z2103 that I really doubt that all were weathly, let alone at least middle class ("the middle class standard of 3000BC").

JoeyP37
01-16-2021, 12:53 AM
That is a legitimate option, considering the dearth of M458 lineages is linked to cremation; we didn't have a pre-Christian sample until the south German gentleman last year. Although I am not saying M458 came from north Jutland, too, it is just that the cremation conundrum was linked to a lack of this clade's samples, and could be a real possibility for the DF19 boys.

Dewsloth
01-16-2021, 01:27 AM
That is a legitimate option, considering the dearth of M458 lineages is linked to cremation; we didn't have a pre-Christian sample until the south German gentleman last year. Although I am not saying M458 came from north Jutland, too, it is just that the cremation conundrum was linked to a lack of this clade's samples, and could be a real possibility for the DF19 boys.

Probably a massive oversimplification, but maybe something like:

P312 SGV>>Burning Beaker (Cremation)>>Protogermanic
P312 SGV>>Inhumation Beaker>>Continental Protocelt (full body burials are the norm)

Interesting that Irish Beakers used both cremation and inhumation.

Ireland

A modern reconstruction of the halberd from Carn, County Mayo, which was found with its oak handle intact. The shaft is just over one metre long.
Beakers arrived in Ireland around 2500 BC and fell out of use around 1700 BC.[67] The beaker pottery of Ireland was rarely used as a grave good, but is often found in domestic assemblages from the period. This stands in contrast to the rest of Europe where it is frequently found in both roles. The inhabitants of Ireland used food vessels as a grave good instead. The large, communal passage tombs of the Irish Neolithic were no longer being constructed during the Early Bronze Age (although some, such as Newgrange were re-used[68]). The preferred method of burial seems to have been single graves and cists in the east, or in small wedge tombs in the west. Cremation was also common.
***
The featured "food vessels" and cinerary urns (encrusted, collared and cordoned) of the Irish Earlier Bronze Age have strong roots in the western European Beaker tradition. Recently, the concept of these food vessels was discarded and replaced by a concept of two different traditions that rely on typology: the bowl tradition and the vase tradition, the bowl tradition being the oldest[81] as it has been found inserted in existing Neolithic (pre-beaker) tombs, both court tombs and passage tombs. The bowl tradition occurs over the whole country except the south-west and feature a majority of pit graves, both in flat cemeteries and mounds, and a high incidence of uncremated skeletons, often in crouched position.[82] The vase tradition has a general distribution and feature almost exclusively cremation. The flexed skeleton of a man 1.88 tall in a cist in a slightly oval round cairn with "food vessel" at Cornaclery, County Londonderry, was described in the 1942 excavation report as "typifying the race of Beaker Folk",[83] although the differences between Irish finds and e.g. the British combination of "round barrows with crouched, unburnt burials" make it difficult to establishes the exact nature of the Beaker People's colonization of Ireland.[73]

In general, the early Irish Beaker intrusions don't attest[84] the overall "Beaker package" of innovations that, once fully developed, swept Europe elsewhere, leaving Ireland behind.[85] The Irish Beaker period is characterised by the earliness[79] of Beaker intrusions, by isolation[79] and by influences and surviving traditions of autochthons.[86]

Beaker culture introduces the practice of burial in single graves, suggesting an Earlier Bronze Age social organisation of family groups.[87] Towards the Later Bronze Age the sites move to potentially fortifiable hilltops, suggesting a more "clan"-type structure.[88] Although the typical Bell Beaker practice of crouched burial has been observed,[89] cremation was readily adopted[90] in accordance with the previous tradition of the autochthons.[69]

rms2
01-16-2021, 12:32 PM
They were so many Z2103 that I really doubt that all were weathly, let alone at least middle class ("the middle class standard of 3000BC").

Don't think I said or even implied that they were all wealthy, just that the elite families may have been headed by men who were Z2103, which may have been a factor inspiring young R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 men to migrate.

The lower echelon Z2103 families would have still belonged to the royal clans, perhaps enjoying some sort of privilege that made migration less of a draw for them.

But maybe the class system was not the main reason behind migration or the success of M417 and L51 at migrating. It's just something to consider, since, pretty obviously, migration to the West and the Indo-Europeanization of most of Europe were accomplished by R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 men and not by R1b-Z2103 men.

rms2
01-16-2021, 12:54 PM
Speaking of the success or failure of particular Y-DNA haplogroups, here (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0244872) is a case of R1b-V1636 in Single Grave Corded Ware in Jutland.

V1636 (https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnapedigree.asp?RecordID=1209084) is parallel to P297 (it is L389+ but P297-).

Kind of irritating that we're waiting on rumors of big time R1b-L51 in Single Grave Corded Ware, but what we get is a paper with R1b-V1636 in SGC instead. (Yeah, I'm griping.)

Silesian
01-16-2021, 01:20 PM
Speaking of the success or failure of particular Y-DNA haplogroups, here (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0244872) is a case of R1b-V1636 in Single Grave Corded Ware in Jutland.

V1636 (https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnapedigree.asp?RecordID=1209084) is parallel to P297 (it is L389+ but P297-).

Kind of irritating that we're waiting on rumors of big time R1b-L51 in Single Grave Corded Ware, but what we get is a paper with R1b-V1636 in SGC instead. (Yeah, I'm griping.)
In my opinion it's very important to narrow down specific snp's attributed to Yamnaya kurgan elite steppe R1b burials spanning roughly 1200 years and their offshoots --from 3300bc+/- to Poltavka 2100bc+/- Catacombe .Using R1b-Z2103 as a broad label is really not accurate as could be. Until we get more samples it remains speculative. The preliminary samples from kurgan steppe burials spanning those 1200 years points to R1b-Z2108-Z2109 clans as highly mobile kurgan burials spanning the steppe from Balkans-Hungary to Afanasievo.

R1b-V1636 in Corded Ware Single grave culture Denmark is very interesting. From Haak et al
Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe----

R1b-V1636 and Yamnaya used the same grave sites in certain areas----


.....................⦁ PG2001.B0101.TF + B0201.TF (BZNK-113/4), kurgan 1, grave 37, was the Eneolithic founding grave in mound 1 was found in an oval pit, thickly packed in red ochre. The grave goods consisted of a long flint blade, a flint adze, a flint projectile head and another flint object. A radiocarbon doublet of charcoal and human bone revealed a strong reservoir-effect in the human bone date. Dating: human bone 4991-4834 calBCE (6012±28BP, MAMS-110564), charcoal 4336-4173 calBCE (5397±28BP, MAMS-110563)................................


Mound 4 was smaller with a diameter of 20 m and a remaining height of only 0.3 m. The founding graves were two Eneolithic burials, graves 9 and 12, which were found side by side and revealed practically identical radiocarbon dating. Both skeletons were thickly packed in red ochre and grave 12 revealed a complex trepanation35. One grave in this mound is associated with Yamnaya, four with the Middle Bronze Age (North Caucasus) and one burial dates to the Sarmatian period. Three individuals from Progress 2 produced genome-wide data:

rms2
01-16-2021, 01:32 PM
I didn't say it's not an important find: they're all important.

What I said is that, from my perspective, it's a pain in the ass, because most of us are waiting on the fulfillment of the rumors of the last year that a number of papers are coming in which R1b-L51 features prominently, including at least one on Single Grave Corded Ware.

I would have liked to have seen one of those papers. I could have gone on waiting for more V1636.

Silesian
01-16-2021, 03:23 PM
I didn't say it's not an important find: they're all important.

What I said is that, from my perspective, it's a pain in the ass, because most of us are waiting on the fulfillment of the rumors of the last year that a number of papers are coming in which R1b-L51 features prominently, including at least one on Single Grave Corded Ware.

I would have liked to have seen one of those papers. I could have gone on waiting for more V1636.

I don't know if I'm interpreting the V1636 paper correctly. Does the graph show 2 L51 as Yamnaya?

rms2
01-16-2021, 06:59 PM
I don't know if I'm interpreting the V1636 paper correctly. Does the graph show 2 L51 as Yamnaya?

I see what you're talking about, but I don't think those are supposed to be Yamnaya. I'm not sure what they are, although I have heard rumors from various sources that R1b-L51 Yamnaya results are coming. Of course, those are just rumors, and I cannot confirm them.

davit
01-16-2021, 07:20 PM
They were so many Z2103 that I really doubt that all were weathly, let alone at least middle class ("the middle class standard of 3000BC").

True. Plus they ultimately are the least successful in the IE game. R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 are much more numerous and most branches of IE are tied to those haplogroups.

Silesian
01-16-2021, 11:31 PM
I see what you're talking about, but I don't think those are supposed to be Yamnaya. I'm not sure what they are, although I have heard rumors from various sources that R1b-L51 Yamnaya results are coming. Of course, those are just rumors, and I cannot confirm them.https://anthrogenica.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=737981

CHG has a very unique signature that can be connected to the ancient Caucasus(Sat 29---25k--ybp+/-). It would be interesting to measure CHG and its age, the following specific European and Steppe snp's-- R1b-V1636+(PG-2001 Caucasus)(Gjerrild 5 Corded Ware Denmark), R1b-Z2108+(Yamnaya), R1b-L51+(Afanasievo),R1b-L51+(Polish South Eastern Corded Ware Rzeszów Foothills (CWC)pcw110-pcw040-pcw041-pcw070-Sokal Ridge--pcw350-pcw070-pcw350-pcw361-pcw362)

ShpataEMadhe
01-17-2021, 12:24 AM
True. Plus they ultimately are the least successful in the IE game. R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 are much more numerous and most branches of IE are tied to those haplogroups.

What game though? Z2103 didn't migrate to west europe

ADW_1981
01-17-2021, 12:43 AM
Is the data available for this particular SGC study? If so, did anyone look at Gjerrild 8? I'm assuming it was lower resolution which is why it was not reported. I have to wonder if Gjerrild 6 & 7 were also R1b-V1636 and are among the last descendants of this lineage who migrated to north-western Europe

Dieu
01-17-2021, 01:05 AM
In my opinion it's very important to narrow down specific snp's attributed to Yamnaya kurgan elite steppe R1b burials spanning roughly 1200 years and their offshoots --from 3300bc+/- to Poltavka 2100bc+/- Catacombe .Using R1b-Z2103 as a broad label is really not accurate as could be. Until we get more samples it remains speculative. The preliminary samples from kurgan steppe burials spanning those 1200 years points to R1b-Z2108-Z2109 clans as highly mobile kurgan burials spanning the steppe from Balkans-Hungary to Afanasievo.

R1b-V1636 in Corded Ware Single grave culture Denmark is very interesting. From Haak et al
Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe----

R1b-V1636 and Yamnaya used the same grave sites in certain areas----
.
What is V1636 single grave sample autosomal ? V1636 could be from the farmer side, WHG side like V88 or even CHG side, who knows ?

CopperAxe
01-17-2021, 01:26 AM
.
What is V1636 autosomal ? V1636 could be from the farmer side, WHG side like V88 or even CHg side, who knows ?

You mean the same R1b-V1636 we've found in Eneolithic
steppe samples?

ADW_1981
01-17-2021, 01:33 AM
.
What is V1636 autosomal ? V1636 could be from the farmer side, WHG side like V88 or even CHg side, who knows ?

Unlikely a EEF lineage, but I suppose it could be similar to the M73 found in Baltic Europe and Scandinavia, a near extinct or extinct EHG line. V1636 is a line found on the Eneolithic PC steppes. The only bizarre thing about its presence is its paucity today. Since most male lineages go extinct, the most rational explanation is this line died out.

Bygdedweller
01-17-2021, 02:52 AM
^^Also, wasn't the Lilla Beddinge U106 found in a Battle Axe context but autosomally looking more south (Veluwe?)?
Lilla Beddinge (RISE98) was ~50% steppe and carried excessive WHG-ancestry. I'd say it looks northern, considering it's dating (~2200-2000 BCE). What is curious is the amount of WHG, with earlier Battle Axe-samples having much less of it and either more steppe or more farmer.

Silesian
01-17-2021, 02:00 PM
True. Plus they ultimately are the least successful in the IE game. R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 are much more numerous and most branches of IE are tied to those haplogroups.

Yamnaya and IE is a very sensitive loaded subject with many on this forum, and others. Better not mention it. However they were not xenophobic, and that might have led to some of their success:)

We do know is that Yamnaya(humble pastoralist nomads used wagons and kurgan burials 3300 BC-2600 BC Mongolia-Hungary) are R1b-Z2103>Z2108- snp's found on the Steppe/Eastern Europe that were not successful, until they mixed with a blend of ancient CHG (25K Basal North Caucasian+Neaderthal 1%+/-)also found in Maykop for example.

https://alittleadrift.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/map_of_georgia_caucasus.png

25,000 year-old Sample from the Caucasus with Basal Eurasian Ancestry


We used outgroup f3-statistics to quantify the amount of shared genetic drift between SAT29 and other ancient genomes (Patterson et al., 2012). SAT29 shares more drift with Villabruna (Italy, 12140±70 bp) (Fu et al., 2016) and Dzudzuana2 than with other ancient individuals (Figure S3A), including the post-LGM individuals from the Caucasus (Satsurblia and Kotias). Among present-day Eurasian populations, SAT29 shows higher genetic affinity to Northern and Western Europeans rather than Central and Southern Asians.................We find that the SAT29 sample clusters with the Dzudzuana2 individual and not with the late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic genomes from the region, or with any of the other pre-LGM Eurasian genomes.................We estimate 1% Neanderthal ancestry in the SAT29 sample, although with large uncertainty due to the low amount of data (95% confidence intervals: 0-6.6%). This point estimate is similar to that of Dzuzuana2 and likely lower than that of Palaeolithic Europeans due to dilution from Basal Eurasian ancestry (Lazaridis et al., 2018) (Figure S

As for other branches of very successful R1b like the ones found in Italy and Armenia and Iberia; they really began to successfully flourish when they mixed with MENA(Middle Eastern North African) and EEF (Early European Farmer) genes.

https://www.valuewalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/North-Africa-And-Middle-East-Maps-1.jpg

rms2
01-17-2021, 02:34 PM
Yamnaya and IE is a very sensitive loaded subject with many on this forum, and others. Better not mention it. However they were not xenophobic, and that might have led to some of their success:)

We do know is that Yamnaya(humble pastoralist nomads used wagons and kurgan burials 3300 BC-2600 BC Mongolia-Hungary) are R1b-Z2103>Z2108- snp's found on the Steppe/Eastern Europe that were not successful, until they mixed with a blend of ancient CHG (25K Basal North Caucasian+Neaderthal 1%+/-)also found in Maykop for example.

. . .

Yamnaya was a large cultural horizon widespread on the steppe. Yes, some of its males were R1b-Z2103, but apparently not all of them were, because Yamnaya DNA is prevalent in Corded Ware and its offshoot, Bell Beaker, and neither of them was dominated by males who were R1b-Z2103.

Yamnaya DNA, Indo-European language, and Indo-European culture spread across Europe west of the steppe, but pretty obviously Z2103 did not have much of a hand in that, since Z2103 is relatively rare across most of Europe.

For the first several years after the analysis of ancient DNA became a practical reality, it looked like Corded Ware was exclusively R1a.

That has since changed.

Right now it's possible for those who are inclined to do so to claim Yamnaya was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103, despite all the evidence that makes that seem unlikely.

If Yamnaya really was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103, then one must conclude that the importance of Yamnaya has been vastly exaggerated.

Perhaps those who currently regard themselves as the exclusive Y-DNA descendants of Yamnaya should do more to imitate the humility you say the "humble pastoralist nomads" possessed.




As for other branches of very successful R1b like the ones found in Italy and Armenia and Iberia; they really began to successfully flourish when they mixed with MENA(Middle Eastern North African) and EEF (Early European Farmer) genes . . .

It seems to me you've got things backwards.

The success of the branches of R1b that went west enabled them to out-compete native Neolithic Farmer males for native Neolithic Farmer women. The success came first; the breeding was one of the rewards.

This is from David Reich's Who We Are and How We Got There, pages 239-240:



This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome. This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups.

Dieu
01-17-2021, 03:12 PM
You mean the same R1b-V1636 we've found in Eneolithic
steppe samples?

I meant the single grave one, forgot to mention it.

Mis
01-17-2021, 03:17 PM
.....

razyn
01-17-2021, 03:17 PM
It seems to me you've got things backwards.

The success of the branches of R1b that went west enabled them to out-compete native Neolithic Farmer males for native Neolithic Farmer women. The success came first; the breeding was one of the rewards.

This is from David Reich's Who We Are and How We Got There, pages 239-240:

...This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups.

I don't think it's irrelevant that these particular conquerors were pastoralists, whose domesticated livestock included oxen, draft horses and other beasts, the domestication of which (if male) included castration. The formerly "steppe" incomers knew the trick, had the technology, and might have domesticated the local Neolithic Farmer males that way. Somebody had to plant the yams. And meanwhile, somebody else could make the babies. In the old "division of labor," it all worked out.

rms2
01-17-2021, 04:15 PM
Yamnaya is specifically linked to the R1b-Z2103 line (R-KMS67).
@ Silesian and @MIS do not belong to R-KMS67.
Another thing is the Culture of the Catacombs.
We are all lost.

I realize that post is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it puts me in mind of the current situation vis-ŕ-vis Yamnaya and Y-DNA.

Yamnaya is central to the discussion of the PIE Pontic-Caspian Urheimat because it was the big cultural horizon prevalent in that region at the right time. That is what made Yamnaya the standard IE thing. Thus its ancient autosomal DNA, known to us as "Yamnaya DNA" and "steppe DNA", is the rod by which we measure the IE genetic input into ancient and modern populations.

Before roughly the third millennium BC, Europe west of the steppe had no Yamnaya DNA. Its people were a mix of native Hunter-Gatherer and Anatolian Neolithic Farmer DNA. In the third millennium BC that began to change, and Yamnaya DNA began to become part of the mix, arriving for the most part with Corded Ware and its offshoot, Bell Beaker. Now modern Europeans and modern people of European descent have all three elements in their genomes.

So, what about Yamnaya Y-DNA? Well, as most of us know by now, Yamnaya kurgans on the steppe, and at least one in Bulgaria, have yielded up male skeletons that belonged overwhelmingly to Y haplogroup R1b-Z2103 (including its subclades), with a couple of exceptions that belonged to I2a.

Is it therefore safe to conclude that we know all there is to know about Yamnaya Y-DNA?

Honestly, no, not at all.

For one thing, as I have mentioned before, in most of Europe, especially western Europe, and in India, R1b-Z2103 is pretty scarce. How can that be, since Yamnaya DNA and Yamnaya (i.e., Indo-European) language and culture are widespread and common in those places?

Instead, Y-DNA R1b-L51 (lumping all its subclades together under that heading) is the single most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Europe, with R1a-M417 not far behind, and R1a-M417 prevails in India among the IE-speaking population.

In addition, ancient Corded Ware Y-DNA is overwhelmingly R1a-M417 and R1b-L51. Bell Beaker Y-DNA is almost exclusively R1b-L51, although there are a few Bell Beaker skeletons that are R1b-Z2103.

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker people were apparently derived from Yamnaya ancestors, since they carried a lot of Yamnaya DNA. Modern Europeans and the descendants of Europeans are genetically much like their Corded Ware and Bell Beaker ancestors.

So, what is going on?

I think the only reasonable conclusion is that we do not have the whole picture yet with regard to Yamnaya Y-DNA.

Pretty obviously, there MUST have been some Yamnaya men who belonged to Y-DNA haplogroups R1a-M417 and R1b-L51.

I really don't see how one can reach any other conclusion. What other possibility is there?

When thinking about this, recall right off the bat that R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51 are both subclades of R1b-L23, the immediate Y-DNA antecedent of both, at least as the Y-DNA tree stands right now.

So, why haven't Yamnaya kurgans been belching up any R1a-M417 or R1b-L51 yet?

I do not know.

Perhaps we just haven't cracked open the right ones in the right places or enough of them.

What do you all think?

Silesian
01-17-2021, 04:25 PM
Yamnaya was a large cultural horizon widespread on the steppe. Yes, some of its males were R1b-Z2103, but apparently not all of them were, because Yamnaya DNA is prevalent in Corded Ware and its offshoot, Bell Beaker, and neither of them was dominated by males who were R1b-Z2103.

Yamnaya DNA, Indo-European language, and Indo-European culture spread across Europe west of the steppe, but pretty obviously Z2103 did not have much of a hand in that, since Z2103 is relatively rare across most of Europe.


I think it's pretty obvious that R1b-L51+ did not have a hand in spreading Kurgan burials across the Steppe, unlike KMS-67+ and related clades, who's autosomal is shared with Eastern Europe and ancient Caucasus like CHG.
One could also argue using empirical evidence that snp's are a small fraction of our dna, and that autosomal make us who we are. The European populations with R1b-L51+ for example have added lot of autosomal dna from the Near East, Northern Africa, regions, areas of innovation, like farming and flat bottom pottery, for example. MENA innovations that enabled them to increase their numbers from what they were able to achieve on the Steppe.

rms2
01-17-2021, 04:42 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that R1b-L51+ did not have a hand in spreading Kurgan burials across the Steppe, unlike KMS-67+ and related clades, who's autosomal is shared with Eastern Europe and ancient Caucasus like CHG.

Two or three years ago, one could have said, with equal justification, that R1b-L51 had no hand in the spread of the Corded Ware culture across northern Europe.

Now we know better, thanks to the recent spate of R1b-L51 in Corded Ware, and rumor has it there is an important paper on Single Grave Corded Ware in the offing that will show that culture was largely R1b-L51.

In other words, I would hold off on sweeping generalizations about Yamnaya Y-DNA.

That early R1b-L51 in Afanasievo might be a clue of things to come.



One could also argue using empirical evidence that snp's are a small fraction of our dna, and that autosomal make us who we are . . .

I agree with that, and it is on that basis that I have argued that there MUST have been Yamnaya men who belonged to Y-DNA haplogroups R1a-M417 and R1b-L51.

alejandromb92
01-17-2021, 04:49 PM
Yamnaya Y-DNA:

I0370 R1b (Z2103+)
I0429 R1b (Z2103+)
I0438 R1b (Z2103+)
I0439 R1b (P297+)
I0443 R1b (L23+)
I0444 R1b (Z2103+)
RISE546 R1b1a2 (M269+)
RISE547 R1b (Z2103+)
RISE548 R1b (Z2103+)
RISE550 R1b (M269+ L51-)
RISE552 I2a (S12195+)

No chance of L51+, i think it's clear that we are not going to find the answer we are looking for in Yamnaya.

rms2
01-17-2021, 04:58 PM
Yamnaya Y-DNA:

I0370 R1b (Z2103+)
I0429 R1b (Z2103+)
I0438 R1b (Z2103+)
I0439 R1b (P297+)
I0443 R1b (L23+)
I0444 R1b (Z2103+)
RISE546 R1b1a2 (M269+)
RISE547 R1b (Z2103+)
RISE548 R1b (Z2103+)
RISE550 R1b (M269+ L51-)
RISE552 I2a (S12195+)

No chance of L51+, i think it's clear that we are not going to find the answer we are looking for in Yamnaya.

Not in the samples you listed.

Otherwise, feel free to explain how Yamnaya DNA and Indo-European language and culture spread and became prevalent across Europe west of the steppe and South Asia absent much R1b-Z2103.

How did R1b-L51 and Yamnaya DNA get into Corded Ware, if there was no R1b-L51 in Yamnaya?

rms2
01-17-2021, 05:10 PM
Let's stop for a moment and remove our hats in contemplation of I6222, a male skeleton of the Afanasievo culture, tested R1b-L52 (P310), one step downstream of R1b-L51, recovered from the Afanasievo site at Shatar Chuluu, Mongolia, and rc dated to 3316-2918 BC (Wang et al 2020).

Lest we forget.

Silesian
01-17-2021, 05:18 PM
To my way of thinking, the prolific spread of R1b-L51 could be linked to the EEF transfer of innovation to migrating refugees, the Steppe factor--

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/4000-BC-gene-map.gif

Silesian
01-17-2021, 05:22 PM
Yamnaya Y-DNA:

I0370 R1b (Z2103+)
I0429 R1b (Z2103+)
I0438 R1b (Z2103+)
I0439 R1b (P297+)
I0443 R1b (L23+)
I0444 R1b (Z2103+)
RISE546 R1b1a2 (M269+)
RISE547 R1b (Z2103+)
RISE548 R1b (Z2103+)
RISE550 R1b (M269+ L51-)
RISE552 I2a (S12195+)

No chance of L51+, i think it's clear that we are not going to find the answer we are looking for in Yamnaya.

I think your right. Yamnaya are a mix of ancient North Caucasian(25K+/-) and EHG.

Dieu
01-17-2021, 05:34 PM
Not in the samples you listed.

Otherwise, feel free to explain how Yamnaya DNA and Indo-European language and culture spread and became prevalent across Europe west of the steppe and South Asia absent much R1b-Z2103.

How did R1b-L51 and Yamnaya DNA get into Corded Ware, if there was no R1b-L51 in Yamnaya?

Did you hear David, there is a sh*tload of news yamnaya samples not published yet and none are L51, maybe in Repin ? Since afanasievo seems to have close tie to Repin culture.

Dieu
01-17-2021, 05:35 PM
You mean the same R1b-V1636 we've found in Eneolithic
steppe samples?

His autosomal was typical steppes ?

Silesian
01-17-2021, 05:38 PM
Did you hear David, there is a sh*tload of news yamnaya samples not published yet and none are L51, maybe in Repin ? Since afanasievo seems to have close tie to Repin culture.

Steppe thug, have you had a chance to compare Repin pottery with Corded Ware Single Grave Culture pottery, or Yamnaya, or Derievka? How about stone axe that is shaped like a boat; compared to a copper axe used by Yamnaya?

etrusco
01-17-2021, 05:44 PM
Did you hear David, there is a sh*tload of news yamnaya samples not published yet and none are L51, maybe in Repin ? Since afanasievo seems to have close tie to Repin culture.

As per Anthony in a 2007 paper IIRC some steppe clans could have been incorporeted into the Cucuteni megasites as military leaders or even royal clans. Since in CT the prevalent rite was cremation could it be the we do not see R1b L 51 because it represented a "cremation practising" tribe. We should check if there are hints of some westermost Yamnaya subgroups ( Budzhak comes to mind) in which cremation was prevalent. This could be an explanation.
IMHO ther easternmost megasites of Tyrpilla were overpacked with steppe peoples.

alejandromb92
01-17-2021, 06:11 PM
Not in the samples you listed.

Otherwise, feel free to explain how Yamnaya DNA and Indo-European language and culture spread and became prevalent across Europe west of the steppe and South Asia absent much R1b-Z2103.

How did R1b-L51 and Yamnaya DNA get into Corded Ware, if there was no R1b-L51 in Yamnaya?

I am one of the "crazy" fellas that thinks that CWC has just influences from Yamnaya, and not their DNA (being not so strict) or their origins with them. I think this is a very complex issue that we can't get an answer till more papers comes out, but i bet some beers that Yamnaya never had L51+.

Silesian
01-17-2021, 07:42 PM
I am one of the "crazy" fellas that thinks that CWC has just influences from Yamnaya, and not their DNA (being not so strict) or their origins with them. I think this is a very complex issue that we can't get an answer till more papers comes out, but i bet some beers that Yamnaya never had L51+.

I have the greatest affection for R1b-L51+ and R1a-M417+ I+I2, since genetically I'm related to these groups via paternal and autosomal genes. I think your right complex is perfect description. I would take you up on your wager, about Yamnaya having L51+ and or R1a and Corded Ware having R1b-Z2108-Z2110.

Coldmountains
01-17-2021, 08:19 PM
Is really some L51+ and M417+ needed in Yamnaya to explain Yamnaya-like and Steppe dna? I am not an expert about this, but i dont think either Afanasievo and Hethites were directly from Yamnaya just based on how early they must have diverged from other PIEs and are found outside the Pontic-Caspian steppe (even when both of them were likely dominated by R1b-Z2103). Afaik there are also "rumours" about very very Yamnaya-like people in Sredny Stog predating Yamnaya, so it is more plausible in my eyes that Yamnaya just represents a subset of Sredny Stog (PIE) Eneolithic steppe groups which mostly but likely not fully replaced other lineages like L51 and M417.But even when L51 and R1a will be found in Yamnaya it will be very likely under very basal and rare branches.

etrusco
01-17-2021, 08:23 PM
I am one of the "crazy" fellas that thinks that CWC has just influences from Yamnaya, and not their DNA (being not so strict) or their origins with them. I think this is a very complex issue that we can't get an answer till more papers comes out, but i bet some beers that Yamnaya never had L51+.

There is a clear connection between Yamnaya and CWC and that is genome wide ancestry. Corded Ware in the baltic suddenly pops up with steppe ancestry dna pratically similar to steppe yamnaya. The combination of EHG and CHG ( or something closely related) did not exist to the west, to the east and to the north. It must have come from some yet to be sampled Yamnaya group on the pontic steppe. There is no way to turn it around.

rms2
01-17-2021, 09:45 PM
To my way of thinking, the prolific spread of R1b-L51 could be linked to the EEF transfer of innovation to migrating refugees, the Steppe factor--

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/4000-BC-gene-map.gif

Perhaps you could explain what you mean.

rms2
01-17-2021, 09:50 PM
Did you hear David, there is a sh*tload of news yamnaya samples not published yet and none are L51, maybe in Repin ? Since afanasievo seems to have close tie to Repin culture.

So explain to me how Yamnaya DNA, language, and culture spread without a corresponding spread of Yamnaya Y-DNA, especially since we know, based upon X chromosome diversity, among other things, that the IE spread was male vectored.

rms2
01-17-2021, 09:52 PM
I am one of the "crazy" fellas that thinks that CWC has just influences from Yamnaya, and not their DNA (being not so strict) or their origins with them. I think this is a very complex issue that we can't get an answer till more papers comes out, but i bet some beers that Yamnaya never had L51+.

So, how can one have 70-80% Yamnaya DNA without actually having Yamnaya ancestors?

How does that work?

You should be careful. I have pricey taste in beer.

rms2
01-17-2021, 09:59 PM
Is really some L51+ and M417+ needed in Yamnaya to explain Yamnaya-like and Steppe dna? I am not an expert about this, but i dont think either Afanasievo and Hethites were directly from Yamnaya just based on how early they must have diverged from other PIEs and are found outside the Pontic-Caspian steppe (even when both of them were likely dominated by R1b-Z2103). Afaik there are also "rumours" about very very Yamnaya-like people in Sredny Stog predating Yamnaya, so it is more plausible in my eyes that Yamnaya just represents a subset of Sredny Stog (PIE) Eneolithic steppe groups which mostly but likely not fully replaced other lineages like L51 and M417.But even when L51 and R1a will be found in Yamnaya it will be very likely under very basal and rare branches.

"Yamnaya" is the big catch-all name for the steppe pastoralist cultural horizon, which was a collection of numerous regional steppe cultures with local variations, that inhabited the Pontic-Caspian steppe at the right time to be part of the PIE phenomenon.

I don't see how Yamnaya autosomal DNA, R1b-L51, and R1a-M417 got into Corded Ware unless there were Yamnaya men who were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417.

Are you saying there was a non-Yamnaya group that was autosomally almost exactly like Yamnaya, created Corded Ware, and was composed of Y-DNA haplogroups R1b-L51 and R1a-M417?

Again, how does that work?

rms2
01-17-2021, 10:05 PM
There is a clear connection between Yamnaya and CWC and that is genome wide ancestry. Corded Ware in the baltic suddenly pops up with steppe ancestry dna pratically similar to steppe yamnaya. The combination of EHG and CHG ( or something closely related) did not exist to the west, to the east and to the north. It must have come from some yet to be sampled Yamnaya group on the pontic steppe. There is no way to turn it around.

I think you get it.

Alain
01-17-2021, 10:18 PM
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078v1.full

So the Afanisevo culture is definitely the eastern offshoot of the Yamnaya culture and its genetic legacy was not that formative, a rapidly expanding culture that left no traces, if only marginally, in the central steppe. My assumption and thesis is that the Afanisevo culture had something to do with the Proto-Tocharians, but we need more genetic data from West China (Xinjiang)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/afanasievo-people-may-well-have-been.html%3Fm%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwjBlKjp_aPuAhUyJMUKHf90ANsQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw2m40sKmWIJRWwQI-ZTKTfQ

Coldmountains
01-17-2021, 10:24 PM
"Yamnaya" is the big catch-all name for the steppe pastoralist cultural horizon, which was a collection of numerous regional steppe cultures with local variations, that inhabited the Pontic-Caspian steppe at the right time to be part of the PIE phenomenon.

I don't see how Yamnaya autosomal DNA, R1b-L51, and R1a-M417 got into Corded Ware unless there were Yamnaya men who were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417.

Are you saying there was a non-Yamnaya group that was autosomally almost exactly like Yamnaya, created Corded Ware, and was composed of Y-DNA haplogroups R1b-L51 and R1a-M417?

Again, how does that work?

I think Sredny Stog had many people who were genetically very similar to Yamnaya, but with more diverse uniparental markers. Also we have already direct Y-DNA R1a-Z93 links between CWC Fatyanovo (2500-2800 B.C), Usatovo (3000-3500 B.C) and Sredny Stog (4000 B.C), which so far don't seem to shared with Yamnaya. The Sredny Stog and Usatovo R1a-M417>Z93 are indeed exotic in terms of autosomal admix and not direct ancestors of later CWC, but they show that R1a-M417 was definetly already present in the region before Yamnaya. So i don't see for R1a-M417 the need of Yamnaya incursions northwards to explain it expansion into North Europe. Rather some unsampled Eneolithic Steppe/Sredny Stog group rich in R1a-M417/R1b-L51? and very similar to later Yamnaya in terms of autosomal admix seems to be ancestral to CWC.

rms2
01-17-2021, 10:25 PM
I'm guessing that what I think Yamnaya was is different from what some others think Yamnaya was.

To me, Yamnaya was the big collection of similar peoples, all apparently swimming in the same autosomal DNA pool, who inhabited the Pontic-Caspian steppe in roughly the late fourth millennium through the third millennium BC.

There was a lot of regional variation in their practices, but they all pretty much fit into Furholt's idea of the Single Grave Burial Ritual (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/proceedings-of-the-prehistoric-society/article/reintegrating-archaeology-a-contribution-to-adna-studies-and-the-migration-discourse-on-the-3rd-millennium-bc-in-europe/6F6223448D130FECBDB899F660EA9873) (SGBR) complex.

ShpataEMadhe
01-17-2021, 10:36 PM
I realize that post is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it puts me in mind of the current situation vis-ŕ-vis Yamnaya and Y-DNA.

Yamnaya is central to the discussion of the PIE Pontic-Caspian Urheimat because it was the big cultural horizon prevalent in that region at the right time. That is what made Yamnaya the standard IE thing. Thus its ancient autosomal DNA, known to us as "Yamnaya DNA" and "steppe DNA", is the rod by which we measure the IE genetic input into ancient and modern populations.

Before roughly the third millennium BC, Europe west of the steppe had no Yamnaya DNA. Its people were a mix of native Hunter-Gatherer and Anatolian Neolithic Farmer DNA. In the third millennium BC that began to change, and Yamnaya DNA began to become part of the mix, arriving for the most part with Corded Ware and its offshoot, Bell Beaker. Now modern Europeans and modern people of European descent have all three elements in their genomes.

So, what about Yamnaya Y-DNA? Well, as most of us know by now, Yamnaya kurgans on the steppe, and at least one in Bulgaria, have yielded up male skeletons that belonged overwhelmingly to Y haplogroup R1b-Z2103 (including its subclades), with a couple of exceptions that belonged to I2a.

Is it therefore safe to conclude that we know all there is to know about Yamnaya Y-DNA?

Honestly, no, not at all.

For one thing, as I have mentioned before, in most of Europe, especially western Europe, and in India, R1b-Z2103 is pretty scarce. How can that be, since Yamnaya DNA and Yamnaya (i.e., Indo-European) language and culture are widespread and common in those places?

Instead, Y-DNA R1b-L51 (lumping all its subclades together under that heading) is the single most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Europe, with R1a-M417 not far behind, and R1a-M417 prevails in India among the IE-speaking population.

In addition, ancient Corded Ware Y-DNA is overwhelmingly R1a-M417 and R1b-L51. Bell Beaker Y-DNA is almost exclusively R1b-L51, although there are a few Bell Beaker skeletons that are R1b-Z2103.

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker people were apparently derived from Yamnaya ancestors, since they carried a lot of Yamnaya DNA. Modern Europeans and the descendants of Europeans are genetically much like their Corded Ware and Bell Beaker ancestors.

So, what is going on?

I think the only reasonable conclusion is that we do not have the whole picture yet with regard to Yamnaya Y-DNA.

Pretty obviously, there MUST have been some Yamnaya men who belonged to Y-DNA haplogroups R1a-M417 and R1b-L51.

I really don't see how one can reach any other conclusion. What other possibility is there?

When thinking about this, recall right off the bat that R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51 are both subclades of R1b-L23, the immediate Y-DNA antecedent of both, at least as the Y-DNA tree stands right now.

So, why haven't Yamnaya kurgans been belching up any R1a-M417 or R1b-L51 yet?

I do not know.

Perhaps we just haven't cracked open the right ones in the right places or enough of them.

What do you all think?

R1b Z2103 has nothing to do with L51 no need to overcomplicate things - what this means is you have to rewrite the modern take of "indo european" and a supposed family language tree

Alain
01-17-2021, 10:39 PM
There is a difference in the burial style of Yamnaya and on the other side of CWC and BBs on the other side, the Yamnaya individuals lay supine under their "kurgan" and legs drawn up on the ground and their graves were not as prestigious as in CWC and BBs, CWC and BBs show a gradual formation of elites, while Yamnaya was more egalitarian.

rms2
01-17-2021, 10:47 PM
R1b Z2103 has nothing to do with L51 no need to overcomplicate things - what this means is you have to rewrite the modern take of "indo european" and a supposed family language tree

That depends on what you mean. Z2103 and L51 are both subclades of L23 and are thus closely related, so obviously they have something to do with one another.

Bell Beaker is dominated by R1b-L51, yet there are several Bell Beaker skeletons that were R1b-Z2103. Again, they must have had something to do with one another.

Please explain how Yamnaya DNA, R1b-L51, and R1a-M417 got into Corded Ware unless there were Yamnaya men who were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417.

rms2
01-17-2021, 10:50 PM
There is a difference in the burial style of Yamnaya and on the other side of CWC and BBs on the other side, the Yamnaya individuals lay supine under their "kurgan" and legs drawn up on the ground and their graves were not as prestigious as in CWC and BBs, CWC and BBs show a gradual formation of elites, while Yamnaya was more egalitarian.

Sort of.

Be careful not to think Yamnaya was monolithic when it wasn't.

There are Yamnaya burials that are startlingly like Corded Ware and Beaker burials. Budzhak Yamnaya is an example.

When will we get some Budzhak Y-DNA?

42653

Alain
01-17-2021, 11:02 PM
That depends on what you mean. Z2103 and L51 are both subclades of L23 and are thus closely related, so obviously they have something to do with one another.

Bell Beaker is dominated by R1b-L51, yet there are several Bell Beaker skeletons that were R1b-Z2103. Again, they must have had something to do with one another.

Please explain how Yamnaya DNA, R1b-L51, and R1a-M417 got into Corded Ware unless there were Yamnaya men who were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417.

These R1b-Z2103 Bell Beaker are from Hungary and half of their ancestry is directly Yamnaya so the Hungarian BB inherited their Y-DNA line from Yamnaya and not like BB / Niederhein / Netherlands offshoot from CWC / extension SGC R1b-L51

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/a-bell-beaker-superhighway.html?m=1

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html?m=1

ShpataEMadhe
01-17-2021, 11:20 PM
That depends on what you mean. Z2103 and L51 are both subclades of L23 and are thus closely related, so obviously they have something to do with one another.

Bell Beaker is dominated by R1b-L51, yet there are several Bell Beaker skeletons that were R1b-Z2103. Again, they must have had something to do with one another.

Please explain how Yamnaya DNA, R1b-L51, and R1a-M417 got into Corded Ware unless there were Yamnaya men who were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417.

What is the current adna on corded ware? Can you sum up the total L51 and Z2013 found so far?

As for how L51 got there, there are many possible ways. Opposite direction west or even south, also possible that z2103 pushed L51 out west and L51 formed bell beaker years later. Another possibility is Z2103 already moved from corded ware into South meaning L51 significantly outnumbered them in corded ware and especially in Bell beaker later on

rms2
01-17-2021, 11:36 PM
What is the current adna on corded ware? Can you sum up the total L51 and Z2013 found so far?

As for how L51 got there, there are many possible ways. Opposite direction west or even south, also possible that z2103 pushed L51 out west and L51 formed bell beaker years later. Another possibility is Z2103 already moved from corded ware into South meaning L51 significantly outnumbered them in corded ware and especially in Bell beaker later on

No Z2103 in CWC yet.

R1b Corded Ware (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WhUiR1AoupXETsh0h9XocLKMq8ics4QrUl4m8BLf6t8/edit?usp=sharing)

The issue is R1b-L51 in Yamnaya.

Corded Ware is roughly 70-80% Yamnaya DNA. How did CWC get that much Yamnaya DNA and (thus far) no Z2103 if there was no R1b-L51 in Yamnaya?

rms2
01-17-2021, 11:40 PM
These R1b-Z2103 Bell Beaker are from Hungary and half of their ancestry is directly Yamnaya so the Hungarian BB inherited their Y-DNA line from Yamnaya and not like BB / Niederhein / Netherlands from CWC / extension SGC R1b-L51

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/a-bell-beaker-superhighway.html?m=1

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html?m=1

Beaker was an offshoot of Corded Ware, but Yamnaya DNA is Yamnaya DNA.

ShpataEMadhe
01-18-2021, 12:31 AM
No Z2103 in CWC yet.

R1b Corded Ware (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WhUiR1AoupXETsh0h9XocLKMq8ics4QrUl4m8BLf6t8/edit?usp=sharing)

The issue is R1b-L51 in Yamnaya.

Corded Ware is roughly 70-80% Yamnaya DNA. How did CWC get that much Yamnaya DNA and (thus far) no Z2103 if there was no R1b-L51 in Yamnaya?

Thanks, very helpful!

There is a clear split between the two, the current hypothesis is clearly wrong in regards to the place and timeframe

It is possible Z2103 had already moved in a different direction allowing for L51 to become Corded Ware with all the 100% Yamnaya women in the region. This may have resulted in a shift of low Yamnaya % to 70%. In order to do this L51 would have wiped whatever Z2013 had remained in the region which probably wasn't much after the southern migration. More adna needs to be found in the south to get closer to completing the puzzle

rms2
01-18-2021, 01:23 AM
So, you're attributing the Yamnaya DNA in Corded Ware to women?

R1b-L51, even though one step downstream of R1b-L23, like R1b-Z2103, was what? Neolithic Farmers? Hunter-Gatherers?

When you deny the obvious (i.e., that there were Yamnaya men who were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417), be careful not to resort to the ridiculous.

rms2
01-18-2021, 01:51 AM
Plainly David Reich regards R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 as Yamnaya Y-DNA.

The following is from his book, Who We Are and How We Got Here, pp. 239-240:



The descendants of the Yamnaya or their close relatives spread their Y chromosomes into Europe and India, and the demographic impact of this expansion was profound, as the Y-chromosome types they carried were absent in Europe and India before the Bronze Age but are predominant in both places today.25

This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome. This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.28 We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.

Alain
01-18-2021, 02:43 AM
Beaker was an offshoot of Corded Ware, but Yamnaya DNA is Yamnaya DNA.

Sorry a bit wrongly expressed, my BBs Niederrhein / Netherlands is the offshoot of CWC / specifically the CWC extension or rather the local variant Single Grave Culture

JoeyP37
01-18-2021, 02:45 AM
I remember Carlos Quiles once posting that-at least the M417 men-had 'hijacked' Yamnaya DNA (how would one do that, pray tell?), which I ridiculed on a post at Eurogenes; of course one day he's going to have to realize those R-L51 samples in south Poland aren't poorly dated proto-Slavs but real great-grandaddies of the Bell Beaker boys.

rms2
01-18-2021, 02:46 AM
Sorry a bit wrongly expressed, my BBs Niederrhein / Netherlands is the offshoot of CWC / specifically the CWC extension or rather the local variant Single Grave Culture

That's what I mean by Beaker: the classic Beaker with Yamnaya DNA that is mostly R1b-P312, the Beaker that buried its important dead in pits (yama=pit) under round burial mounds with a kit of grave goods that often included weapons.

davit
01-18-2021, 03:00 AM
I remember Carlos Quiles once posting that-at least the M417 men-had 'hijacked' Yamnaya DNA (how would one do that, pray tell?), which I ridiculed on a post at Eurogenes; of course one day he's going to have to realize those R-L51 samples in south Poland aren't poorly dated proto-Slavs but real great-grandaddies of the Bell Beaker boys.

Let's not give that geek any more attention than he deserves.

Alain
01-18-2021, 04:05 AM
That's what I mean by Beaker: the classic Beaker with Yamnaya DNA that is mostly R1b-P312, the Beaker that buried its important dead in pits (yama=pit) under round burial mounds with a kit of grave goods that often included weapons.

Yes, of course, but R1b P312 is not typical for the Central European BBs when we go to Olalde. Go in 2018? Or where do you see the origin, I am open to any opinion!

CopperAxe
01-18-2021, 08:37 AM
Despite all the fantasies about forest steppe that many people seem to have, the Corded Ware populations clearly come out of the steppes.

They also show up around 3000 bc in Europe. So unless we have a transition stage outside of the steppes but predating the formation of the Corded Ware horizon, then from an archaeological perspective you cannot get around the fact that these people came out of the pit grave horizon.

Coldmountains
01-18-2021, 11:57 AM
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078v1.full

So the Afanisevo culture is definitely the eastern offshoot of the Yamnaya culture and its genetic legacy was not that formative, a rapidly expanding culture that left no traces, if only marginally, in the central steppe. My assumption and thesis is that the Afanisevo culture had something to do with the Proto-Tocharians, but we need more genetic data from West China (Xinjiang)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/afanasievo-people-may-well-have-been.html%3Fm%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwjBlKjp_aPuAhUyJMUKHf90ANsQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw2m40sKmWIJRWwQI-ZTKTfQ

Early Afanasievo is almost contemporary with early Yamnaya so either Proto-Afanasievo extremely fast moved/almost teleported from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the Altai region/South Siberia or more likely they both descendant from an earlier very Yamnaya-like population around 3500-4000 B.C (Repin, Sredny Stog). This than would also explain the basal nature of Tocharian language.

Yamnaya is in my eyes simply too late and too bottlenecked in terms of uniparental markers to represent early PIEs. So far it is also one of the best sampled ancient cultures and we need more and more special pleading to argue for R1a-M417 or even L51 being directly from there. Published theories like R1a represented low class Yamnaya people, who were on purpose not buried in Kurgans and with Yamnaya artifacts, are more funny than realistic in my eyes. I am still open to the idea R1a-M417 was at some point "Indo-Europeanized" but if this was the case it definetly happened before Yamnaya. That you can model most other IEs with Yamnaya just shows that the ancestors of CWC, Afanasievo and probably also Hethites were derived from the same earlier Eneolithic Steppe population like Yamnaya. You can also model Bell Beakers or modern Europeans with Sintashta because Bell Beakers and Sintashta are from CWC, but that does not mean they are directly derived from each other. The same with Yamnaya and other Yamnaya-like early IEs.

Generalissimo
01-18-2021, 12:53 PM
Published theories like R1a represented low class Yamnaya people, who were on purpose not buried in Kurgans and with Yamnaya artifacts, are more funny than realistic in my eyes.

This looks like a misunderstanding to me based on some R1a samples from Harvard that weren't dated properly.

These samples actually had East Asian mtDNA haps/admixture, so they weren't Yamnaya but probably Sarmatians. But what seems to have happened is that Anthony got wind that there were these R1a outliers and rushed to create an archeological theory to explain them.

Embarrassing if true.

CopperAxe
01-18-2021, 01:15 PM
This looks like a misunderstanding to me based on some R1a samples from Harvard that weren't dated properly.

These samples actually had East Asian mtDNA haps/admixture, so they weren't Yamnaya but probably Sarmatians. But what seems to have happened is that Anthony got wind that there were these R1a outliers and rushed to create an archeological theory to explain them.

Embarrassing if true.

Well I wouldn't say it would be an embarrasment for David Anthony, as he is just working with the information relayed to him, but is is unfortunate his understanding of the archaeogenetic record is not up to par (yet).

But kudos to him trying at least? Definitely better than Furholt with his Q1a2 Yamnaya and R1a Maykop anti-migrationist ramblings.

He should make an anthrogenica account lol.

Silesian
01-18-2021, 01:22 PM
This looks like a misunderstanding to me based on some R1a samples from Harvard that weren't dated properly.

These samples actually had East Asian mtDNA haps/admixture, so they weren't Yamnaya but probably Sarmatians. But what seems to have happened is that Anthony got wind that there were these R1a outliers and rushed to create an archeological theory to explain them.

Embarrassing if true.
Will Polish genes or Eurogenes, be going to do an in depth blog write up on the origins of Corded Ware R1b-L51 from South Eastern Poland before Yamnaya L51 (if and when)are published?

rms2
01-18-2021, 02:17 PM
Yes, of course, but R1b P312 is not typical for the Central European BBs when we go to Olalde. Go in 2018? Or where do you see the origin, I am open to any opinion!

Excuse me?

Almost all the Kurgan BB in Olalde et al is R1b-P312, Central European and otherwise.

By R1b-P312 I mean it and all its subclades.

Alain
01-18-2021, 02:39 PM
Yes, sorry, Richard: hintersofa:

Alain
01-18-2021, 03:25 PM
Early Afanasievo is almost contemporary with early Yamnaya so either Proto-Afanasievo extremely fast moved/almost teleported from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the Altai region/South Siberia or more likely they both descendant from an earlier very Yamnaya-like population around 3500-4000 B.C (Repin, Sredny Stog). This than would also explain the basal nature of Tocharian language.

Yamnaya is in my eyes simply too late and too bottlenecked in terms of uniparental markers to represent early PIEs. So far it is also one of the best sampled ancient cultures and we need more and more special pleading to argue for R1a-M417 or even L51 being directly from there. Published theories like R1a represented low class Yamnaya people, who were on purpose not buried in Kurgans and with Yamnaya artifacts, are more funny than realistic in my eyes. I am still open to the idea R1a-M417 was at some point "Indo-Europeanized" but if this was the case it definetly happened before Yamnaya. That you can model most other IEs with Yamnaya just shows that the ancestors of CWC, Afanasievo and probably also Hethites were derived from the same earlier Eneolithic Steppe population like Yamnaya. You can also model Bell Beakers or modern Europeans with Sintashta because Bell Beakers and Sintashta are from CWC, but that does not mean they are directly derived from each other. The same with Yamnaya and other Yamnaya-like early IEs.

I understand that BB and Sintashta come from CWC but in the case of afanisevo it also shows the male line from Yamnaya, which was attested to R1b-M269 and I also think that you will most likely be Z2103 positive, and all three can also model on steppe-related ancestors (Yamnaya), OK we have nothing else to model the ancestral components of the steppe people, of course there were other cultures in the Yamnaya horizon with almost the same / similar ancestry, but Yamnaya - afanisevo are exactly genetically the same , for example CWC early Baltic already deviates with about 90% steppe-related ancestors and CWC / Middle Elbe-Saale with 75% steppe-related ancestors (Yamnaya) through other admixtures, but I would neither overestimate Yamnaya nor underestimate it because this culture gave an impulse, but of course, as already mentioned, the cultures on the left with a not unimportant factor are in this horizon tor available, for example the almost contemporary Ussatowe culture could have had a strong influence on the Cernavodă culture and which contributed to the immigration of Anatolian population groups (Hittites, Luwians ...). The direct influence of Yamnaya can certainly be found in the Balkans and the Volga-Ural region (Udmurts), a high proportion of R1b-M269 - L23.

rms2
01-18-2021, 03:41 PM
I'm wondering what everyone here thinks Yamnaya was exactly.

Anthony dates Yamnaya to 3300-2500 BC (page 300 of The Horse The Wheel and Language). On pages 300-302, he writes:



The spread of the Yamnaya horizon was the material expression of the spread of late Proto-Indo-European across the Pontic-Caspian steppes.1

As I understand it, Yamnaya was kind of the steppe pastoralist catch-all on the Pontic-Caspian steppe from about 3300-2500 BC. All the folks who practiced the SGBR, mobile pastoralist lifestyle in that region at that time were Yamnaya.

So, if R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 with Yamnaya DNA in Corded Ware had some source other than Yamnaya, what was it? If it wasn't Yamnaya, it would have had to predate Yamnaya and yet be drawn from the same general population that was the source of Yamnaya.

Basically, if you're saying the R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 in Corded Ware had some source other than Yamnaya, you're attributing to Corded Ware a non-Yamnaya origin, despite the presence of a high level of Yamnaya or Yamnaya-like autosomal DNA in Corded Ware.

So, what was that origin? What steppe pastoralist culture existed at roughly the same time as Yamnaya, was closely related genetically to Yamnaya, but was not part of Yamnaya, and formed or contributed to the formation of Corded Ware?

Personally, I think Corded Ware was formed during the CWC-X horizon (3000-2900 BC) by Yamnaya migrants in the NW Ukraine/SE Poland/E Slovakia region and comes by its Yamnaya DNA pretty straightforwardly. Thus I would say that eventually R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 will turn up in Yamnaya remains, particularly in that area.

From Anthony, The Horse The Wheel and Language, page 304:



The Yamnaya horizon was the first more or less unified ritual, economic, and material culture to spread across the entire Pontic-Caspian steppe region, but it was never completely homogeneous even materially. At the beginning it already contained two major variants, on the lower Don and lower Volga, and, as it expanded, it developed other regional variants, which is why most archaeologists are reluctant to call it the Yamnaya “culture”. But many broadly similar customs were shared.

Ibid, page 307:



The Yamnaya horizon is usually described by Slavic archaeologists not as a “culture” but as a “cultural-historical community.” This phrase carries the implication that there was a thread of cultural identity or shared ethnic origin running through the Yamnaya social world, although one that diversified and evolved with the passage of time.7 Although I agree that this probably was true in this case, I will use the Western term “horizon”, which is neutral about cultural identity, in order to avoid using a term loaded toward that interpretation. As I explained in chapter 7, a horizon in archaeology is a style or fashion in material culture that is rapidly accepted by and superimposed on local cultures across a wide area. In this case, the five Pontic-Caspian cultures of the Final Eneolithic (chapter 12) were the local cultures that rapidly accepted, in varying degrees, the Yamnaya lifestyle.

razyn
01-18-2021, 04:08 PM
I just ran across this today. It's not new, and not about aDNA, but the abstract includes the interesting phrase, "the oldest Celtic cemetery in the Carpathian Basin." So, that might be titillating. I skimmed the actual paper, no DNA work -- and really, not much to work with. Some remains were cremated, but that doesn't seem to be the only (or even the main) problem. One can't analyze what is no longer present, for whatever reason. https://www.academia.edu/44900250/Kohler_Anthropological_Analysis

Silesian
01-18-2021, 04:25 PM
I'm wondering what everyone here thinks Yamnaya was exactly.


Personally, I think Corded Ware was formed during the CWC-X horizon (3000-2900 BC) by Yamnaya migrants in the NW Ukraine/SE Poland/E Slovakia region and comes by its Yamnaya DNA pretty straightforwardly. Thus I would say that eventually R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 will turn up in Yamnaya remains, particularly in that area.


You might as well say I6222 is Yamnaya=Afanasievo, and related to Corded Ware R1b in South Eastern Poland.
Mongolian sample I6222 is R1b-P310 oldest P310--3112-2917 BC? Perhaps not all the Steppe groups that cluster genetically(like R1a-M417+) with R1b-P310+ and R1b-Z2109+ had access to materials to build wagons and metal tools, and pottery designs associated for long distance travel. CWC-X horizon @3000-2900BC IMO would have been perhaps as much as 300-400 years after long distance wagon travel started. I also wonder about tools(light weight metallurgy designed tanged dagger, adze, axe for travelling, repairing a broken wooden part. Stone tools on a long distance trip to Mongolia like I6222 would have been impractical. Also the the pottery, pointed bottom similar to Hunter Gatherer from Samara(3-4mm thick?), not flat base perhaps shaped more like an egg for structural purpose in a wagon? All purely conjecture.

Coldmountains
01-18-2021, 04:29 PM
I understand that BB and Sintashta come from CWC but in the case of afanisevo it also shows the male line from Yamnaya, which was attested to R1b-M269 and I also think that you will most likely be Z2103 positive, and all three can also model on steppe-related ancestors (Yamnaya), OK we have nothing else to model the ancestral components of the steppe people, of course there were other cultures in the Yamnaya horizon with almost the same / similar ancestry, but Yamnaya - afanisevo are exactly genetically the same , for example CWC early Baltic already deviates with about 90% steppe-related ancestors and CWC / Middle Elbe-Saale with 75% steppe-related ancestors (Yamnaya) through other admixtures, but I would neither overestimate Yamnaya nor underestimate it because this culture gave an impulse, but of course, as already mentioned, the cultures on the left with a not unimportant factor are in this horizon tor available, for example the almost contemporary Ussatowe culture could have had a strong influence on the Cernavodă culture and which contributed to the immigration of Anatolian population groups (Hittites, Luwians ...). The direct influence of Yamnaya can certainly be found in the Balkans and the Volga-Ural region (Udmurts), a high proportion of R1b-M269 - L23.

That Afanasievo was Z2103+ and Yamnaya-like is itself not definite proof that it directly came from Yamnaya.Z2103+ is according to Yfull 6000 years old and in reality probably older because Yfull very often underestimates the age of clades. So these rather points to Yamnaya and Afansievo being derived from an slightly earlier steppe groupe like Repin or Sredny Stog. Early Sredny Stog would also be in the timeframe when Z645+ and R1b-L23+ diverged into several super-clades like L51, Z2103, Z93 or when they strated to expand/grow.

So far there is no need of Yamnaya to explain R1a-M417 and especially Z93 when it was also numerous times found among Pre-Yamnaya groups, who already show significant Yamnaya-like admix (Sredny Stog I6561, Usatovo,..). Usatovo and the Sredny Stog I6561 sample are not directly ancestral to CWC because they have exotic admix for their perod but they probably represent a small subset of Yamnaya-like shifted people of 3000-4000 B.C with many other being identical to later Yamnaya in terms of autosomal admix but with more diverse uniparental markers ancestral to CWC. So either R1a-M417 from Sredny Stog took Yamnaya wifes to become Yamnaya-like later or more likely it already was often Yamnaya-like before even Yamnaya formed. So rather Sredny Stog and close related cultures are ancestral to CWC, Yamnaya, Usatovo. Yamnaya just happens to be one Sredny Stog or Repin group which aggressively expanded into the southtern steppes and replaced other very similar steppe/forest-steppe groups. Similar to how the steppe was later almost fully dominated by R1a Sintashta-rich groups.

MitchellSince1893
01-18-2021, 04:33 PM
I just ran across this today. It's not new, and not about aDNA, but the abstract includes the interesting phrase, "the oldest Celtic cemetery in the Carpathian Basin." So, that might be titillating. I skimmed the actual paper, no DNA work -- and really, not much to work with. Some remains were cremated, but that doesn't seem to be the only (or even the main) problem. One can't analyze what is no longer present, for whatever reason. https://www.academia.edu/44900250/Kohler_Anthropological_Analysis
As my y dna line has a branch with a member from Hungary, I’m hoping they eventually do dna testing on the skeletal remains. They have at least 8 males. Site is in Ménfőcsanak in NW Hungary.

rms2
01-18-2021, 04:38 PM
You might as well say I6222 is Yamnaya=Afanasievo, and related to Corded Ware R1b in South Eastern Poland. Mongolian sample I6222 is R1b-P310 oldest P310--3112-2917 BC? Perhaps not all the Steppe groups that cluster genetically(like R1a-M417+) with R1b-P310+ and R1b-Z2109+ had access to materials to build wagons and metal tools, and pottery designs associated for long distance travel. CWC-X horizon @3000-2900BC IMO would have been perhaps as much as 300-400 years after long distance wagon travel started. I also wonder about tools(light weight metallurgy designed tanged dagger, adze, axe for travelling, repairing a broken wooden part. Stone tools on a long distance trip to Mongolia like I6222 would have been impractical. Also the the pottery, pointed bottom similar to Hunter Gatherer from Samara(3-4mm thick?), not flat base perhaps shaped more like an egg for structural purpose in a wagon? All purely conjecture.

I wouldn't go quite that far, although certainly Afanasievo had its genetic and cultural roots in the same cultures of the Eneolithic steppe that served as the sources for Yamnaya.

Doesn't Anthony draw Afanasievo from Repin?

The five Pontic-Caspian steppe cultures of the Final Eneolithic, according to Anthony (Figure 12.1 on p. 267 of THTWAL) were:

1. Mikhailovka I
2. Post Mariupol
3. Late Sredni Stog
4. Late Khvalynsk
5. Repin

Silesian
01-18-2021, 04:51 PM
I wouldn't go quite that far, although certainly Afanasievo had its genetic and cultural roots in the same cultures of the Eneolithic steppe that served as the sources for Yamnaya.

Doesn't Anthony draw Afanasievo from Repin?

The five Pontic-Caspian steppe cultures of the Final Eneolithic, according to Anthony (Figure 12.1 on p. 267 of THTWAL) were:

1. Mikhailovka I
2. Post Mariupol
3. Late Sredni Stog
4. Late Khvalynsk
5. Repin

Repin, Derievka, have that egg shape type of pottery.
Unrelated --- location of European P310?
I was wondering about the Bell Beakers in Germany are they P310?

rms2
01-18-2021, 04:53 PM
Repin, Derievka, have that egg shape type of pottery.
Unrelated --- location of European P310?
I was wondering about the Bell Beakers in Germany are they P310?

Yes, in that almost all of them are R1b-P312, downstream of P310.

Silesian
01-18-2021, 05:00 PM
Yes, in that almost all of them are R1b-P312, downstream of P310.

Like the diagram in this article?

https://weardley.com/smithson-vikings/

rms2
01-18-2021, 05:01 PM
Speaking of Beakers, it's interesting how Beakerology evolved as a mess, and it's only ancient DNA that has begun to make sense of it.

The Dutch experts were the closest to right, with their idea that Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware, but the presence of some articles of apparently Iberian origin, especially V-perforated buttons, and a few early radiocarbon dates from Iberia, screwed things up to a fare-thee-well.

If Beakerology were just beginning today, probably Beaker wouldn't even have its own name but would just be regarded as a CWC variant.

Alain
01-18-2021, 05:04 PM
That Afanasievo was Z2103+ and Yamnaya-like is itself not definite proof that it directly came from Yamnaya.Z2103+ is according to Yfull 6000 years old and in reality probably older because Yfull very often underestimates the age of clades. So these rather points to Yamnaya and Afansievo being derived from an slightly earlier steppe groupe like Repin or Sredny Stog. Early Sredny Stog would also be in the timeframe when Z645+ and R1b-L23+ diverged into several super-clades like L51, Z2103, Z93 or when they strated to expand/grow.

So far there is no need of Yamnaya to explain R1a-M417 and especially Z93 when it was also numerous times found among Pre-Yamnaya groups, who already show significant Yamnaya-like admix (Sredny Stog I6561, Usatovo,..). Usatovo and the Sredny Stog I6561 sample are not directly ancestral to CWC because they have exotic admix for their perod but they probably represent a small subset of Yamnaya-like shifted people of 3000-4000 B.C with many other being identical to later Yamnaya in terms of autosomal admix but with more diverse uniparental markers ancestral to CWC. So either R1a-M417 from Sredny Stog took Yamnaya wifes to become Yamnaya-like later or more likely it already was often Yamnaya-like before even Yamnaya formed. So rather Sredny Stog and close related cultures are ancestral to CWC, Yamnaya, Usatovo. Yamnaya just happens to be one Sredny Stog or Repin group which aggressively expanded into the southtern steppes and replaced other very similar steppe/forest-steppe groups. Similar to how the steppe was later almost fully dominated by R1a Sintashta-rich groups.

They have really good arguments but R1b-L23 (Z2105 / 2103) is not the same type that was found for the Yamnaya culture in Samara Oblast and Orenburg Oblast. Was and this presence remained relatively stable in this region for 2000 years or do you think for example that the Udmurts have a different genetic connection or rather where do you see the origin of R1b-L23 (Z2105 / 2103) / culture (see also in Sredny Stog)? With R1a M417 the origin is Ukraine / Alexandria (Proto-Indo-European) age approx. 4800–6800 years and R1a1 Z93 you see the origin in Sredny Stog, if I have taken it correctly, the age approx. 4200–4500 years? Are there any indications for this assumption or is there still a lack of genetic evidence (with Sredny Stog)

rms2
01-18-2021, 05:05 PM
Like the diagram in this article?

https://weardley.com/smithson-vikings/

Well, sort of.

By far and away Beaker was predominantly R1b-P312, and P312 is downstream of P310.

Silesian
01-18-2021, 05:10 PM
Speaking of Beakers, it's interesting how Beakerology evolved as a mess, and it's only ancient DNA that has begun to make sense of it.

The Dutch experts were the closest to right, with their idea that Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware, but the presence of some articles of apparently Iberian origin, especially V-perforated buttons, and a few early radiocarbon dates from Iberia, screwed things up to a fare-thee-well.

If Beakerology were just beginning today, probably Beaker wouldn't even have its own name but would just be regarded as a CWC variant.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Mongolia P310 and Europe P312 are related, like tanged copper daggers and Yersinia Pestis phylogeny???? speculative
https://www.nature.com/news/bronze-age-skeletons-were-earliest-plague-victims-1.18633

rms2
01-18-2021, 05:13 PM
Sorry to quote Anthony's THTWAL again (page 307), but I am wondering about something connected to that passage.



The Yamnaya horizon is usually described by Slavic archaeologists not as a “culture” but as a “cultural-historical community.” This phrase carries the implication that there was a thread of cultural identity or shared ethnic origin running through the Yamnaya social world, although one that diversified and evolved with the passage of time.7 Although I agree that this probably was true in this case, I will use the Western term “horizon”, which is neutral about cultural identity, in order to avoid using a term loaded toward that interpretation. As I explained in chapter 7, a horizon in archaeology is a style or fashion in material culture that is rapidly accepted by and superimposed on local cultures across a wide area. In this case, the five Pontic-Caspian cultures of the Final Eneolithic (chapter 12) were the local cultures that rapidly accepted, in varying degrees, the Yamnaya lifestyle.

I wonder, knowing what he knows now about ancient Yamnaya DNA, if Anthony would stick with the term "horizon" or would, like Slavic archaeologists, adopt "cultural-historical community".

Pretty plainly, the Yamnaya thread (rope, more like) of shared cultural identity and ethnic origin was real.

alejandromb92
01-18-2021, 05:19 PM
Repin, Derievka, have that egg shape type of pottery.
Unrelated --- location of European P310?
I was wondering about the Bell Beakers in Germany are they P310?

I0806:
mtDNA: H1
Y-DNA: R-P312

I0805:
mtDNA: H1
Y-DNA: R-M269

I3588
mtDNA: H1e1a
Y-DNA: R-L151

I3589
mtDNA: U4d1
Y-DNA: R-L2

WEHR_1192SkA
mtDNA: K1a4a1
Y-DNA: R-P312*

AMPA_1
mtDNA: T2b33
Y-DNA: P-M45

HUGO_169Sk1
mtDNA: U5a2b3
Y-DNA: G2

HUGO_180Sk1
mtDNA: U5b2b4
Y-DNA: R-M269

HUGO_180Sk2
mtDNA: U5b2b4
Y-DNA: F

RISE560=I4132:
mtDNA: U5a1a1
Y-DNA: R-L151

I5519
mtDNA: I4a
Y-DNA: R-L2

I think these are most of them (in Germany). A lot of them are below P310.

razyn
01-18-2021, 05:26 PM
I0806:
mtDNA: H1
Y-DNA: R-P312

I think these are most of them (in Germany). A lot of them are below P310.

Actually I0806 in Quedlinburg was DF27, per Rich Rocca. That sample was sequenced twice, and seeing the DF27 call depends on which BAM file is examined.

alejandromb92
01-18-2021, 06:35 PM
Actually I0806 in Quedlinburg was DF27, per Rich Rocca. That sample was sequenced twice, and seeing the DF27 call depends on which one is examined.

Thanks. I knew that the oldest DF27 found yet were in Germany, but i didn't knew which sample was.

Silesian
01-18-2021, 07:35 PM
I0806:
mtDNA: H1
Y-DNA: R-P312

I0805:
mtDNA: H1
Y-DNA: R-M269

I3588
mtDNA: H1e1a
Y-DNA: R-L151

I3589
mtDNA: U4d1
Y-DNA: R-L2

WEHR_1192SkA
mtDNA: K1a4a1
Y-DNA: R-P312*

AMPA_1
mtDNA: T2b33
Y-DNA: P-M45

HUGO_169Sk1
mtDNA: U5a2b3
Y-DNA: G2

HUGO_180Sk1
mtDNA: U5b2b4
Y-DNA: R-M269

HUGO_180Sk2
mtDNA: U5b2b4
Y-DNA: F

RISE560=I4132:
mtDNA: U5a1a1
Y-DNA: R-L151

I5519
mtDNA: I4a
Y-DNA: R-L2

I think these are most of them (in Germany). A lot of them are below P310.

Bro- I'm not sure if this is legit, and I don't really know about P310, just speculating, maybe this might be connected ???? Without a breakdown of South Poland Corded Ware it's hard to know? Crickets chirping in the silent background-- for the last six months+/- since the samples have been out

https://indo-european.eu/2020/08/west-yamnaya-settlers-like-early-bell-beakers-r1b-p310-and-r1b-z2103/

Dieu
01-18-2021, 08:06 PM
.
What is V1636 single grave sample autosomal ? V1636 could be from the farmer side, WHG side like V88 or even CHG side, who knows ?

In fact not so much, V1636 seems very steppe, the unlucky R1b steppe brother

rms2
01-18-2021, 10:30 PM
I0806:
mtDNA: H1
Y-DNA: R-P312

I0805:
mtDNA: H1
Y-DNA: R-M269

I3588
mtDNA: H1e1a
Y-DNA: R-L151

I3589
mtDNA: U4d1
Y-DNA: R-L2

WEHR_1192SkA
mtDNA: K1a4a1
Y-DNA: R-P312*

AMPA_1
mtDNA: T2b33
Y-DNA: P-M45

HUGO_169Sk1
mtDNA: U5a2b3
Y-DNA: G2

HUGO_180Sk1
mtDNA: U5b2b4
Y-DNA: R-M269

HUGO_180Sk2
mtDNA: U5b2b4
Y-DNA: F

RISE560=I4132:
mtDNA: U5a1a1
Y-DNA: R-L151

I5519
mtDNA: I4a
Y-DNA: R-L2

I think these are most of them (in Germany). A lot of them are below P310.

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N7Ep4aqCs7mT9X5oj27mGRdztt14398DA2v7XAaBJkI/edit?usp=sharing) is a Google spreadsheet I was keeping on Kurgan Bell Beaker. I highlighted the German samples in orange.

It might not be totally complete. I've gotten bored with Beaker lately. There might have been a couple more that have come down the pike lately that I just did not add to this sheet.

You can see that Beaker thus far is overwhelmingly P312+ where testing could get that far, with a lot of L2 on the Continent and a lot of L21 in Britain.

rms2
01-18-2021, 10:40 PM
Bro- I'm not sure if this is legit, and I don't really know about P310, just speculating, maybe this might be connected ???? Without a breakdown of South Poland Corded Ware it's hard to know? Crickets chirping in the silent background-- for the last six months+/- since the samples have been out

https://indo-european.eu/2020/08/west-yamnaya-settlers-like-early-bell-beakers-r1b-p310-and-r1b-z2103/

I'm not sure how much of a breakdown you need, but here is my Google spreadsheet on R1b Corded Ware, which includes those from SE Poland via Linderholm et al (2020):

R1b Corded Ware (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WhUiR1AoupXETsh0h9XocLKMq8ics4QrUl4m8BLf6t8/edit?usp=sharing)

Probably you mean a detailed autosomal breakdown. I don't have that on this sheet.

rms2
01-18-2021, 11:01 PM
Bro- I'm not sure if this is legit, and I don't really know about P310, just speculating, maybe this might be connected ???? Without a breakdown of South Poland Corded Ware it's hard to know? Crickets chirping in the silent background-- for the last six months+/- since the samples have been out

https://indo-european.eu/2020/08/west-yamnaya-settlers-like-early-bell-beakers-r1b-p310-and-r1b-z2103/

Hey!

I'm not a big follower of Quiles, but that photo of Bulgarian archaeologist Svetoslav Stamov with an ancient DNA spreadsheet in the background does apparently show an R1b-P310 (R1b1a1b1a1) about eight spaces down, with "Bulgaria_[?]" on the left, maybe "Bulgaria_EBA".

Too bad Stamov's head is in the way and that I don't speak Bulgarian.

According to Quiles in that article, the spreadsheet is from an upcoming paper on SE Europe by Reich and company.

Silesian
01-18-2021, 11:17 PM
Hey!

I'm not a big follower of Quiles, but that photo of Bulgarian archaeologist Svetoslav Stamov with an ancient DNA spreadsheet in the background does apparently show an R1b-P310 (R1b1a1b1a1) about eight spaces down, with "Bulgaria_[?]" on the left, maybe "Bulgaria_EBA".

Too bad Stamov's head is in the way and that I don't speak Bulgarian.

According to Quiles in that article, the spreadsheet is from an upcoming paper on SE Europe by Reich and company.

Do you remember the brief write up Carlos did on what might be 2 Yamnaya R1b-L51 from Slovakia before the video was taken down? Accidentally put up for public.

rms2
01-18-2021, 11:22 PM
Do you remember the brief write up Carlos did on what might be 2 Yamnaya R1b-L51 from Slovakia before the video was taken down? Accidentally put up for public.

No. Like I said, I don't follow him, but that is interesting.

Why was the video taken down?

Generalissimo
01-18-2021, 11:54 PM
In that video, which was about the Carpathian Basin, the women suggested that L51 in the region was associated with Bell Beakers.

Screen caps from the video were posted here. Of course, Carlos misrepresented what they contained, which of course isn't surprising.

By the way, spoiler: Slovakia EBA is strongly R1a.

rms2
01-19-2021, 12:08 AM
That still leaves one wondering about that Bulgarian R1b-P310 on the spreadsheet behind Stamov's big noggin.

Generalissimo
01-19-2021, 12:12 AM
That still leaves one wondering about that Bulgarian R1b-P310 on the spreadsheet behind Stamov's big noggin.

I'm not aware of anything like that. It might have been a typo or some funny long hand, or just an error due to low coverage.

Best wait until it's published, or at least confirmed via a reliable source.

rms2
01-19-2021, 12:18 AM
I'm not aware of anything like that. It might have been a typo or some funny long hand, or just an error due to low coverage.

Best wait until it's published, or at least confirmed via a reliable source.

True, but there it is, looking for all the world like the longhand version of R1b-P310. Right below it is an R1b1a1b1b (Z2103), and a few spaces below that an R1b1a1b (M269).

Odd if the only one of the three they goofed up was R1b1a1b1a1 (R1b-P310).

Since the data are alleged to have come from Reich and company, that doesn't seem likely.

Question: Am I the only one irked by continued use of the longhand, which seems to change more often than some people change their underwear?

Generalissimo
01-19-2021, 12:36 AM
True, but there it is, looking for all the world like the longhand version of R1b-P310. Right below it is an R1b1a1b1b (Z2103), and a few spaces below that an R1b1a1b (M269).

Odd if the only one of the three they goofed up was R1b1a1b1a1 (R1b-P310).

Since the data are alleged to have come from Reich and company, that doesn't seem likely.

Question: Am I the only one irked by continued use of the longhand, which seems to change more often than some people change their underwear?

I've seen some spectacular goof ups in pre-publication data.

rms2
01-19-2021, 12:41 AM
I've seen some spectacular goof ups in pre-publication data.

No doubt, but Yamnaya DNA, R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 got into Corded Ware somehow.

So if a Yamnaya R1b-L51 or R1a-M417 shows up, it shouldn't be a big shocker, even if the first one we find is in Bulgaria.

Generalissimo
01-19-2021, 12:53 AM
No doubt, but Yamnaya DNA, R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 got into Corded Ware somehow.

So if a Yamnaya R1b-L51 or R1a-M417 shows up, it shouldn't be a big shocker, even if the first one we find is in Bulgaria.

True, but I just can't get over using a screen cap, along with some guy's head in it, for this sort of thing.

I have actually seen EBA/Yamnaya R1b from Bulgaria, but it was Z2103 and something low coverage.

Silesian
01-19-2021, 01:14 AM
No doubt, but Yamnaya DNA, R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 got into Corded Ware somehow.

So if a Yamnaya R1b-L51 or R1a-M417 shows up, it shouldn't be a big shocker, even if the first one we find is in Bulgaria.

I really don't know much about R1a, and only realized today that R1b-310 and R1b-z2108/9 share same culture and burials, most likely lines of communication. Looking at the Mitra samples from the deleted study--they all belong to one specific branch of R1a, I don't know if they are typical Corded Ware or not? However the picture beginning to emirge is R1b- Z2108/9 in close proximity to R1b-310, R1b-L51*,R1b-L151, over a distance of 3000km+/- separated by Steppe. So my questionare, are there different branches of R1a like M417 and Z93 in close burial proximity to each other?

rms2
01-19-2021, 01:17 AM
Z93 is downstream of M417. I'm no R1a expert. I use R1a-M417 as a rubric for all the appropriate subclades.

I believe Z93 is the one dominant among the folks who became the Indo-Iranian tribes, not that it isn't significant elsewhere, as well.

Silesian
01-19-2021, 01:21 AM
The finer the snow details, the better, just my opinion.

Silesian
01-19-2021, 01:23 AM
Z93 is downstream of M417. I'm no R1a expert. I use R1a-M417 as a rubric for all the appropriate subclades.

I believe Z93 is the one dominant among the folks who became the Indo-Iranian tribes, not that it isn't significant elsewhere, as well.

I know Hungary Bell Beakers are a specific branch of R1b-Z2108/9, the same branch found in Yamnaya Karagash. What branch of R1b-L51 are found at Csepel Hungary?

rms2
01-19-2021, 01:26 AM
The finer the snow details, the better, just my opinion.

But sometimes one has to lift his head up above the weeds in order to see where he's going.

R1a-M417 is a big enough net to catch all or most of the Indo-Europeans who were R1a, without getting bogged down in the minutiae of this and that subclade.

rms2
01-19-2021, 01:38 AM
I know Hungary Bell Beakers are a specific branch of R1b-Z2108/9, the same branch found in Yamnaya Karagash. What branch of R1b-L51 are found at Csepel Hungary?

As I recall, there was an R1b-L2 (downstream of U152), which was Beaker, and a pair of brothers who were R1b-L151. That last pair were not Beaker, though. They were Proto-Nagyrev, which represents the transition period between Vucedol and full blown Nagyrev.

Silesian
01-19-2021, 02:25 AM
But sometimes one has to lift his head up above the weeds in order to see where he's going.

R1a-M417 is a big enough net to catch all or most of the Indo-Europeans who were R1a, without getting bogged down in the minutiae of this and that subclade.

Have you ever seen the R1a and OIT debates on Eurogenes? Every detail comes up. First Sintashta had wagon burial's the they found wagon burial in India. Sintashta btw also has what is called an outlier burial of R1b-z2109. In my opinion CHG is more autochthonous than EEF,. so I view it a little different. Anyway if there is an example of two different derived evolutionary branches of R1a buried together (culture) in the same way as Afanasievo R1bZ2109 and R1b310 I like to compare them, time and date.

Silesian
01-19-2021, 02:34 AM
As I recall, there was an R1b-L2 (downstream of U152), which was Beaker, and a pair of brothers who were R1b-L151. That last pair were not Beaker, though. They were Proto-Nagyrev, which represents the transition period between Vucedol and full blown Nagyrev.

In the recent Corded Ware -SGC--R1b-V1636+, Do you think the two samples labeled as R1b-L51 Yamnaya was a mistake?

rms2
01-19-2021, 12:34 PM
In the recent Corded Ware -SGC--R1b-V1636+, Do you think the two samples labeled as R1b-L51 Yamnaya was a mistake?

No, but I don't see an indication of what they represent or where they came from.

rms2
01-19-2021, 12:41 PM
Have you ever seen the R1a and OIT debates on Eurogenes? Every detail comes up. First Sintashta had wagon burial's the they found wagon burial in India. Sintashta btw also has what is called an outlier burial of R1b-z2109. In my opinion CHG is more autochthonous than EEF,. so I view it a little different. Anyway if there is an example of two different derived evolutionary branches of R1a buried together (culture) in the same way as Afanasievo R1bZ2109 and R1b310 I like to compare them, time and date.

How detailed one gets with specific subclades depends on how narrow the topic is. If one is honing in on a specific site or group, then a narrow focus is appropriate.

But one cannot do that when generalizing about the Indo-Europeans and the entire interaction between the steppe, Europe, and South Asia over the entire Neolithic through the Bronze Age. If one gets too specific then, he misses a lot, or must repeat himself and cover subclade after subclade, where it was, and what it was doing at such-and-such a time, etc.

Dieu
01-19-2021, 12:43 PM
This looks like a misunderstanding to me based on some R1a samples from Harvard that weren't dated properly.

These samples actually had East Asian mtDNA haps/admixture, so they weren't Yamnaya but probably Sarmatians. But what seems to have happened is that Anthony got wind that there were these R1a outliers and rushed to create an archeological theory to explain them.

Embarrassing if true.

Is it your theory about anthony or you heard rumors/insiders about it ? Well he is an anthropologist, not a archeogenetist. You cannot be good everywhere especially when you start archeogenetics when you're old.

Silesian
01-19-2021, 12:59 PM
Is it your theory about anthony or you heard rumors/insiders about it ? Well he is an anthropologist, not a archeogenetist. You cannot be good everywhere especially when you start archeogenetics when you're old.

No one is right all of the time. That is what makes it fun. Sometimes bloggers get it wrong, and project their mistakes. Others admit their mistakes and keep moving on.

razyn
01-19-2021, 01:07 PM
Well he is an anthropologist, not a archeogenetist. You cannot be good everywhere especially when you start archeogenetics when you're old.

Ahem. It's possible for an old anthropologist to keep up with new genetics stuff. We just have to be a little selective about how we spend our last, few twilight hours. Poor ol' Uncle Dave has 1591 followers on his Academia page, must have been doing something right, in his dotage.

Silesian
01-19-2021, 01:38 PM
How detailed one gets with specific subclades depends on how narrow the topic is. If one is honing in on a specific site or group, then a narrow focus is appropriate.

But one cannot do that when generalizing about the Indo-Europeans and the entire interaction between the steppe, Europe, and South Asia over the entire Neolithic through the Bronze Age. If one gets too specific then, he misses a lot, or must repeat himself and cover subclade after subclade, where it was, and what it was doing at such-and-such a time, etc.

For example compare snps found in Corded Ware( and or/SGC) and Afanasievo and Bell Beaker burials.

I"m thinking along specific snp's that became involved in certain, skills, or had access to materials, or participated in long distance trade or animal domestication. For example Eastern R1b-P310 and potential downstream snp's would have shared language/communication with R1b-Z2109: since they traveled together to the East, perhaps something similar to the days when wagon trains( prairie schooners) . They would have had specific shared words for general directions, weather-seasonal, and perhaps specific types of woodland regions(hard woods, versus soft woods) for repairing their wagons, metallurgy and deposits of ores. They also would have shared a vocabulary for domesticated livestock, like the horse. Perhaps the same dynamic took place in places like Bulgaria(R1b-P310?? and R1b Z2109??), and Csepel Island Hungary(domesticated horse?), were we find R1b-Z2109 and R1b-P310? and or related branches?. I remember there was one R1b sample that had uncommon bone formation; might that be from riding horse? That would be one example of comparing two R1b snps derived from L23- Mongolia to Hungary-Bulgaria-Vucedol?
Another would be the area around wagon production and viniculture. The word for wine is specific to a few areas were R1b snps like V1636 like PG2001-R1b-Z2109 and maybe P310?. The Northern Caucasus-(Georgia) and or Alexandria for example also had specific ydna lines Q and R1a, I don't know all their specific snps, but they might have interacted with the same vocabulary, with some snps staying sedentary while others became increasingly mobile. Just speculation.

Generalissimo
01-19-2021, 11:54 PM
Is it your theory about anthony or you heard rumors/insiders about it ? Well he is an anthropologist, not a archeogenetist. You cannot be good everywhere especially when you start archeogenetics when you're old.

I know first hand of these supposed Yamnaya R1a individuals. They're marked as outliers or as "possible" Yamnaya samples, and that's because they're clearly different.

Some of them have very eastern mtDNA haps, so they're probably just badly dated Sarmatians or Scythians. Others look like Steppe_MLBA, so if they date to the Yamnaya period, then they're probably the first waves of invaders from the west that eventually cleared out Yamnaya, Catacomb, Poltavka, etc. from the steppes. That would be very ironic.

I also know for a fact that Anthony gets info, at least occasionally, about pre-publication data from scientists at the Reich Lab. So I'm guessing that they told him about these R1a outliers and either he went ahead and came up with this oddball theory, or they're all in on it.

rms2
01-20-2021, 12:39 AM
I sometimes wonder what ancient samples Reich knows about that are no big deal to him but which would make the rest of us crap our pants for sheer, unbridled joy.

Hoppo
01-20-2021, 10:59 PM
Sorry if this has been asked and answered before.
With L51 coming via Corded Ware which is 20% Iran N, any idea why Olaide's chart shows some of the earliest British L51 like the Boscombe Bowman with hardly any Iran N? Could this be a mistake?

razyn
01-20-2021, 11:08 PM
Sorry if this has been asked and answered before.
With L51 coming via Corded Ware which is 20% Iran N, any idea why Olaide's chart shows some of the earliest British L51 like the Boscombe Bowman with hardly any Iran N? Could this be a mistake?

Saying that Corded Ware is 20% Iran N could be a mistake.

Silesian
01-21-2021, 12:31 AM
That's the big ❓ Polish R1b Corded Ware according to Yfull L51* and L52* They need an in depth autosomal breakdown to see their origin.

rms2
01-21-2021, 12:41 AM
Sorry if this has been asked and answered before.
With L51 coming via Corded Ware which is 20% Iran N, any idea why Olaide's chart shows some of the earliest British L51 like the Boscombe Bowman with hardly any Iran N? Could this be a mistake?

Sorry, but what are you talking about?

By "Iran N" do you mean CHG? Yamnaya DNA is partly CHG. Beaker generally had less Yamnaya DNA than Corded Ware, mainly because Beaker is a slightly later phenomenon than Corded Ware, just as Corded Ware had less Yamnaya DNA than Yamnaya itself.

But British Beaker was not completely lacking in Yamnaya DNA.

rms2
01-21-2021, 02:02 AM
That's the big ❓ Polish R1b Corded Ware according to Yfull L51* and L52* They need an in depth autosomal breakdown to see their origin.

That would be nice, but maybe Figure 3 on page 5 of Linderholm et al will help. One can see the CWC samples from SE Poland (including the R1b-L51 samples) as the light green squares sitting pretty close to the Yamnaya bronze-colored circles, closer to Yamnaya in fact than the other Polish CWC samples represented by dark green squares.

42733

Hoppo
01-21-2021, 02:44 PM
Sorry, but what are you talking about?

By "Iran N" do you mean CHG? Yamnaya DNA is partly CHG. Beaker generally had less Yamnaya DNA than Corded Ware, mainly because Beaker is a slightly later phenomenon than Corded Ware, just as Corded Ware had less Yamnaya DNA than Yamnaya itself.

But British Beaker was not completely lacking in Yamnaya DNA.
It's in a paper by Inigo Olaide called The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of North West Europe. The chart is Extended Data Figure 1 on page 22. Zoom in, and the Boscombe Bowman is the 14th along under Beaker Complex Britain.
Yes, I'm talking about the bright green colour that shows as high in CHG and Iran N and quite high in Corded Ware.
There's hardly any of it in the Boscombe Bowman and in a female buried close to him 16th along. Not sure why, or how the colour coding is worked out? Later L51 samples look more like the Corded Ware ones. Perhaps it is just some kind of error?

rms2
01-21-2021, 04:10 PM
It's in a paper by Inigo Olaide called The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of North West Europe. The chart is Extended Data Figure 1 on page 22. Zoom in, and the Boscombe Bowman is the 14th along under Beaker Complex Britain.
Yes, I'm talking about the bright green colour that shows as high in CHG and Iran N and quite high in Corded Ware.
There's hardly any of it in the Boscombe Bowman and in a female buried close to him 16th along. Not sure why, or how the colour coding is worked out? Later L51 samples look more like the Corded Ware ones. Perhaps it is just some kind of error?

I'm familiar with that paper.

I2416, one of the Boscombe Bowmen, who was R1b-P310xL21, had the lowest steppe DNA of any of the British Beaker samples, but he was not totally without steppe DNA.

If you look at Figure 3a on page 17 of the 2017 Olalde et al pre-print (which was the version of Olalde et al you cited for Extended Data Fig. 1 on page 22), you'll see he had the highest level of British Neolithic DNA of any British Beaker sample. Probably his mother or another recent female ancestor was a native.

Silesian
01-21-2021, 04:28 PM
That would be nice, but maybe Figure 3 on page 5 of Linderholm et al will help. One can see the CWC samples from SE Poland (including the R1b-L51 samples) as the light green squares sitting pretty close to the Yamnaya bronze-colored circles, closer to Yamnaya in fact than the other Polish CWC samples represented by dark green squares.

42733

Do you think Polish R1b-Corded Ware L51+will also end up being modeled like Fatyanovo-R1aZ93?


We tested qpAdm models including Yamnaya from Samara or Kalmykia and a variety of EF populations one at a time and found that the two EF populations, with the highest P values with both Yamnaya populations, are Globular Amphora and Trypillia (P values of 0.02/0.16 and 0.06/0.26, respectively) (table S15). The admixture proportions are 65.5%/66.9% Yamnaya Samara/Kalmykia + 34.5%/33.1% Globular Amphora and 65.5%/69.6% Yamnaya Samara/Kalmykia + 34.5%/30.4% Trypillia,

rms2
01-21-2021, 05:00 PM
Do you think Polish R1b-Corded Ware L51+will also end up being modeled like Fatyanovo-R1aZ93?

I don't know for sure, but GAC makes a lot of sense as the source of Neolithic Farmer DNA.

Silesian
01-21-2021, 06:14 PM
I don't know for sure, but GAC makes a lot of sense as the source of Neolithic Farmer DNA.
Was wondering about Fatyanovo and Bell BeakerL51 and or Corded Ware R1bL51 origin of Steppe ancestry?

Do Fatyanovo R1a belong to sample GLAV_14, cluster a male from the Late Eneolithic site Glăvăneştii Vechi, classified as Romania Bronze Age (ca. 3500-3000 BC), mtDNA T1a1? Sirak et al. biorXiv (2019)
https://indo-european.eu/2020/03/earliest-r1a-z93-from-late-trypillian-in-the-podolian-volhynian-upland/

Anyone know the branch of R1b-Bell Beaker with the signs of riding a horse?
While even a group of people walking on foot can migrate respectable distances, the exceptional success of Yamnaya groups seems difficult to explain that way. The use of horses for transport would certainly support a migration model; but so far, we do not have reliable clues for that. Now, the examination of Yamnaya-related human skeletons from Romania yielded findings that may be considered proof not only for casual, but regular use of horses as mounts by these early steppe herders spreading to the west.

Sounds familiar? Indeed, because early East Bell Beakers show similar proof of regular use of horses as mounts, which adds to their evident direct connection with the radical expansion of the R1b-L23-rich Yamnaya

MitchellSince1893
01-21-2021, 06:18 PM
That would be nice, but maybe Figure 3 on page 5 of Linderholm et al will help. One can see the CWC samples from SE Poland (including the R1b-L51 samples) as the light green squares sitting pretty close to the Yamnaya bronze-colored circles, closer to Yamnaya in fact than the other Polish CWC samples represented by dark green squares.

42733
FWIW when Davidiski modeled RISE563 (bell beaker 2541bc) it came out near Mordovians. RISE563 is labeled in blue font “Bell Beaker” near the top right center in this plot
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSFJva2RkakpTdm8/view

The CWC in southern Poland plot that rms2 posted (light green squares) are also right on top of the Mordovians.

EDIT: Here is a zoom in on RISE563/Bell Beaker plot, within the Mordovian polygon
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/73/ac/ca73ac0cca823d20d54c4fdc00d45183.png

Silesian
01-21-2021, 06:33 PM
FWIW when Davidiski modeled RISE563 (bell beaker 2541bc) it came out near Mordovians. RISE563 is labeled in blue font “Bell Beaker” near the top right center in this plot
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSFJva2RkakpTdm8/view

The CWC in southern Poland plot that rms2 posted (light green squares) are also right on top of the Mordovians.

That's fantastic ! That's how my ancestors are related ! Upstream Z2110 are from this region!

Ryazan Oblast borders Vladimir Oblast (N), Nizhny Novgorod Oblast (NE), the Republic of Mordovia

Z2110 is downstream from Z2109 Yamnaya!
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/
Mordovia!


Csepel Island Hungary is also related!
I2787
https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/07/szigetszentmiklos-cemetery-santas-six.html


Some sites on the island have ridiculous quantities of horse remains. I2787's family history may reflect the horse trade and networks that connected different peoples in this area. Maybe his parents were some of those different peoples.

rms2
01-21-2021, 08:09 PM
. . .

Anyone know the branch of R1b-Bell Beaker with the signs of riding a horse?

There have been at least three Beaker skeletons I know of with osteological evidence of horseback riding.

I0805 R1b-L151 2467-2142 BC Quedlinburg, Germany (listed as having osteological evidence of horseback riding)

I2416 R1b-P310 2460–2200 BC Amesbury, England (femur fracture consistent with a fall from a horse moving at high speed)

I6581 R1b-L2 2456-2146 BC Kornice, Poland (Poirier's facet)

Hoppo
01-21-2021, 08:54 PM
I'm familiar with that paper.

I2416, one of the Boscombe Bowmen, who was R1b-P310xL21, had the lowest steppe DNA of any of the British Beaker samples, but he was not totally without steppe DNA.

If you look at Figure 3a on page 17 of the 2017 Olalde et al pre-print (which was the version of Olalde et al you cited for Extended Data Fig. 1 on page 22), you'll see he had the highest level of British Neolithic DNA of any British Beaker sample. Probably his mother or another recent female ancestor was a native.
Ah yes, and going by his tiny 3% bright green element, perhaps as many as all but one of his great grandparents were native or continental Neolithics too?
Figure 3a is helpful in making sense of it, as it shows that most later L51 men would have had Corded Ware partners.

DMXX
01-21-2021, 09:55 PM
Some of them have very eastern mtDNA haps, so they're probably just badly dated Sarmatians or Scythians.

If any of them belong to mtDNA C, they may simply represent a persistence of ancestry related to this southern Ukrainian phenomenon. (https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201269)

rms2
01-21-2021, 09:56 PM
Ah yes, and going by his tiny 3% bright green element, perhaps as many as all but one of his great grandparents were native or continental Neolithics too?
Figure 3a is helpful in making sense of it, as it shows that most later L51 men would have had Corded Ware partners.

I'm not sure what you mean. The exceptions were British Neolithic Farmer partners.

Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware, and L51 came into Corded Ware from Yamnaya.

If one looks at the very oldest known R1b-L51 (before 2600 BC), he can see that it is of steppe origin and was in Corded Ware very early.

Oldest R1b-L51 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q3DI0RgUGN3t2PteXxRGXMwF7A-onO9gCxWKXqbTihc/edit?usp=sharing)

Hoppo
01-21-2021, 10:44 PM
I'm not sure what you mean. The exceptions were British Neolithic Farmer partners.

Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware, and L51 came into Corded Ware from Yamnaya.

If one looks at the very oldest known R1b-L51 (before 2600 BC), he can see that it is of steppe origin and was in Corded Ware very early.

Oldest R1b-L51 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q3DI0RgUGN3t2PteXxRGXMwF7A-onO9gCxWKXqbTihc/edit?usp=sharing)
Yes, that's right.
I'm just looking at L51 into Britain via Corded Ware. Olaide shows Corded Ware as about 20% light green and the early L51 Bowman as 3% light green, which approximates to 3/20ths of his ancestry or one of his great grandparents being Corded Ware.
Perhaps looks a bit too non-Corded Ware, which makes me wonder if there is anything a bit out in Olaide's analysis?

Silesian
01-22-2021, 01:46 PM
Saying that Corded Ware is 20% Iran N could be a mistake.

Last year we learned SE Poland CW L51* L52* with CHG component, plotting with Yamnaya Z2109+CHG rich, EEF poor.
And so far this year we learned about the Georgian Sat29(25K+/-) ancestral to Yamnaya's-CHG. Then we just got the Danish CW-SGC sample with R1b-V1636+ with the same CHG component. At the same time hinting(in the graphic) at Yamnaya-L51+!

I can hardly wait for the Yamnaya L51+ samples!

etrusco
01-22-2021, 01:54 PM
Last year we learned SE Poland CW L51* L52* with CHG component, plotting with Yamnaya Z2109+CHG rich, EEF poor.
And so far this year we learned about the Georgian Sat29(25K+/-) ancestral to Yamnaya's-CHG. Then we just got the Danish CW-SGC sample with R1b-V1636+ with the same CHG component. At the same time hinting(in the graphic) at Yamnaya-L51+!

I can hardly wait for the Yamnaya L51+ samples!


I do not get what you mean. Do you think that the CHG/ like part of the steppe eneolithic cluster is basically a Dzudzuana kind of population that survived in the northern foothills of the Caucasus?

rms2
01-22-2021, 04:09 PM
Yes, that's right.
I'm just looking at L51 into Britain via Corded Ware. Olaide shows Corded Ware as about 20% light green and the early L51 Bowman as 3% light green, which approximates to 3/20ths of his ancestry or one of his great grandparents being Corded Ware.
Perhaps looks a bit too non-Corded Ware, which makes me wonder if there is anything a bit out in Olaide's analysis?

I doubt that. Pretty obviously, I2416 came from a line that was admixed with native British Neolithic farmers, which is what Fig. 3a on page 17 of the pre-print shows.

As steppe migrants moved farther and farther west, they and their descendants bred with native females, reducing the proportion of Yamnaya DNA with each succeeding generation. I2416 is an example of that. He was the product of forbears who were farther along in that process than most of their fellows.

rms2
01-22-2021, 04:18 PM
Last year we learned SE Poland CW L51* L52* with CHG component, plotting with Yamnaya Z2109+CHG rich, EEF poor.
And so far this year we learned about the Georgian Sat29(25K+/-) ancestral to Yamnaya's-CHG. Then we just got the Danish CW-SGC sample with R1b-V1636+ with the same CHG component. At the same time hinting(in the graphic) at Yamnaya-L51+!

I can hardly wait for the Yamnaya L51+ samples!

I'm looking forward to that myself, but right now I'm really anticipating the appearance of the big Single Grave Corded Ware paper, the one that is rumored to show that R1b-L51 was predominant in Single Grave Corded Ware.

I hope it appears soon and comes with good archaeological descriptions of the skeletons, the burial sites, grave goods, etc.

Photos would be nice, too.

Silesian
01-22-2021, 04:33 PM
I'm looking forward to that myself, but right now I'm really anticipating the appearance of the big Single Grave Corded Ware paper, the one that is rumored to show that R1b-L51 was predominant in Single Grave Corded Ware.

I hope it appears soon and comes with good archaeological descriptions of the skeletons, the burial sites, grave goods, etc.

Photos would be nice, too.

I wonder what Prof. Kristiansen, Kristian will have to say if and when he finds out R1b-L51+ and R1b-V1636+ are SGC-burrow-kurgans in Northern Germany.
@5:30 into vid, to much smoke, burning... make the forest areas feel like home...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKn05BbEMcs

rms2
01-22-2021, 05:27 PM
I wonder what Prof. Kristiansen, Kristian will have to say if and when he finds out R1b-L51+ and R1b-V1636+ are SGC-burrow-kurgans in Northern Germany.
@5:30 into vid, to much smoke, burning... make the forest areas feel like home...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKn05BbEMcs

I think he already knows.

Silesian
01-22-2021, 06:28 PM
In relation to the successful spread of L51+ and tall genes(Anyone recall those tall boys from ancient Ireland, I forget?) + other phenotypes, including blood types, etc.... with R1b-L51/V1636(not so successful but still related and interesting) I find interesting some possible connections with cluster from Caucasus--CHG 12K and Sat27-25K+/-

There was probably a migration of populations from the Near East and Caucasus to Europe during the Mesolithic, around 14,000 years ago, much earlier than the migrations associated with the Neolithic Revolution.[3] A few specimens from the Villabruna Cluster also show genetic affinities for East Asians that are derived from gene flow.[3][5] The light skin pigmentation characteristic of modern Europeans is estimated to have spread across Europe in a "selective sweep" during the Mesolithic (19,000 to 11,000 years ago). The associated TYRP1 alleles, SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, emerge around 19,000 years ago – during the LGM and most likely in the Caucasus.[18][19] The HERC2 variation for blue eyes first appears around 13,000 to 14,000 years ago in Italy and the Caucasus.[3]

Caucasus Hunter Gatherers contributed to the formation of the Yamna culture, since Samara hunter-gatherers featured only Eastern European Hunter Gatherer (EHG) ancestry and no CHG ancestry, whereas Yamna samples had up to 43% of CHG ancestry.[20]

Hoppo
01-22-2021, 08:35 PM
I doubt that. Pretty obviously, I2416 came from a line that was admixed with native British Neolithic farmers, which is what Fig. 3a on page 17 of the pre-print shows.

As steppe migrants moved farther and farther west, they and their descendants bred with native females, reducing the proportion of Yamnaya DNA with each succeeding generation. I2416 is an example of that. He was the product of forbears who were farther along in that process than most of their fellows.
It's interesting to learn about this.
But if the Boscombe Bowman had only 3% CHG/Iran N and masses of Anatolian Neolithic like Olaide's chart indicates, this would make the earliest British L51 guy pretty much indistinguishable from the Iberian Beakers or Chalcolithics in the chart. Not sure I buy this, as it doesn't fit with what we know and doesn't fit with figure 3 showing he was 63% the same as the other Corded Ware-derived Beakers.
The later L51 British Beakers in Olaide's chart look to have mated with Corded Ware women rather than native females, as their Steppe DNA levels were maintained right on into the Bronze Age. Why would the Bowman's L51 ancestors have been any different?

rms2
01-23-2021, 12:00 AM
It's interesting to learn about this.
But if the Boscombe Bowman had only 3% CHG/Iran N and masses of Anatolian Neolithic like Olaide's chart indicates, this would make the earliest British L51 guy pretty much indistinguishable from the Iberian Beakers or Chalcolithics in the chart. Not sure I buy this, as it doesn't fit with what we know and doesn't fit with figure 3 showing he was 63% the same as the other Corded Ware-derived Beakers.
The later L51 British Beakers in Olaide's chart look to have mated with Corded Ware women rather than native females, as their Steppe DNA levels were maintained right on into the Bronze Age. Why would the Bowman's L51 ancestors have been any different?

Because his dad met a native woman he really liked?

I think you're making too much of that graphic on page 22. I2416 wasn't completely lacking in steppe DNA, but pretty obviously there was some native admixture in his ancestry. His father might have already carried a healthy dose of Neolithic Farmer DNA himself.

Notice also that most of the British Beaker guys, especially those with a lot of steppe DNA, were R1b-L21. I2416 was R1b-P310xL21, meaning he tested negative for L21, so he was a little bit different to begin with.

And what makes you think he was "the earliest British L51 guy"?

rms2
01-23-2021, 02:48 AM
I wonder what Prof. Kristiansen, Kristian will have to say if and when he finds out R1b-L51+ and R1b-V1636+ are SGC-burrow-kurgans in Northern Germany . . .

I said I think Professor Kristiansen already knows. This video is more recent than the one you posted.

Check it out, if you haven't already.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi1C1XMYU2Q&fbclid=IwAR0nYBwQxNeI53TF_qeZRZB8g5otVbLT2d19tLFNq TQpnQkNSC5-UX2txg4

Hoppo
01-23-2021, 02:40 PM
Because his dad met a native woman he really liked?

I think you're making too much of that graphic on page 22. I2416 wasn't completely lacking in steppe DNA, but pretty obviously there was some native admixture in his ancestry. His father might have already carried a healthy dose of Neolithic Farmer DNA himself.

Notice also that most of the British Beaker guys, especially those with a lot of steppe DNA, were R1b-L21. I2416 was R1b-P310xL21, meaning he tested negative for L21, so he was a little bit different to begin with.

And what makes you think he was "the earliest British L51 guy"?
Because with 3/20ths of the Corded Ware CHG, the graphic suggests that the Boscombe Bowman's dad mated with a native woman, his dad's dad mated with a native woman and his dad's dad's dad mated with a native woman. Essentially that 7 of his 8 great grandparents were Neolithics, that he had been raised by Neolithics rather than Corded Ware for 3 generations, which seems nonsensical. It lends credence to the old myth about L51 Beaker origins in Iberia, as the chart shows his mix to be similar to Iberians and even Iberian Beaker/Chalcolithic has similar small slithers of Steppe DNA.
Olaide indicates he was the earliest of the British samples, giving him the earliest date and placing him first in his figure 3 chart which he says is "ordered chronologically".
Why would this Bowman's earlier L51 line have mixed in several generations of Neolithic circles when subsequent British L51 clearly took Corded Ware-derived partners?
(By the way, interesting about the more basal form of L51.)

rms2
01-23-2021, 03:56 PM
Because with 3/20ths of the Corded Ware CHG, the graphic suggests that the Boscombe Bowman's dad mated with a native woman, his dad's dad mated with a native woman and his dad's dad's dad mated with a native woman. Essentially that 7 of his 8 great grandparents were Neolithics, that he had been raised by Neolithics rather than Corded Ware for 3 generations, which seems nonsensical. It lends credence to the old myth about L51 Beaker origins in Iberia, as the chart shows his mix to be similar to Iberians and even Iberian Beaker/Chalcolithic has similar small slithers of Steppe DNA.
Olaide indicates he was the earliest of the British samples, giving him the earliest date and placing him first in his figure 3 chart which he says is "ordered chronologically".
Why would this Bowman's earlier L51 line have mixed in several generations of Neolithic circles when subsequent British L51 clearly took Corded Ware-derived partners?
(By the way, interesting about the more basal form of L51.)

Excuse me, but steppe DNA is not wholly CHG. You're squeezing details out of one simple graphic that I don't think you're justified in doing. You also seem to be straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. You've picked out the one outlier, who nevertheless is not bereft of steppe DNA, meanwhile ignoring the rest, using that one singleton to "lend credence to the old myth about L51 Beaker origins in Iberia", when, as the one exception, it does just the opposite.

Besides that, I2416 was a Beaker man, not Corded Ware. Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware, but it was not itself Corded Ware. It's possible that I2416 came not from the Lower Rhine, which was probably the source of R1b-L21 Beaker, but from Bretagne or even Iberia, from a line that had been among a larger Neolithic Farmer population and thus had more admixture. As Reich mentioned in his book, Iberia experienced a 30% turnover in total population, but a 90%+ turnover in Y-DNA, with R1b-L51 replacing native Neolithic Farmer Y-DNA.

If you take a look at Figure S2 on page 155 of the final print version of the Olalde et al Supplementary Info, you will see that I2416, although shifted farther to the right (toward Anatolia_N) than the rest of British Beaker, still has steppe DNA and is well to the left (toward Steppe_EBA) of the Iberians without steppe DNA.

I2416 is shifted a little farther toward Steppe_EBA than most of the Iberian Beaker samples that also have steppe DNA: MAD2 - I6472, I6539, I6588, and I6623; and BUR2 - I0461, I0462, and I5665.

From the Olalde et al Supplementary Info, page 147:



BK_Spain_BUR2 (individuals I0461, I0462, and I5665) . . . BK_Spain_BUR2 with steppe ancestry . . .

These statistics support the presence of Steppe-related ancestry in BK_Spain_MAD2 (individuals I6472, I6623, I6539 and I6588)

I made and labeled a little screenshot of the relevant section of Figure S2 to illustrate.

42765

I don't have a detailed breakdown of the autosomal DNA of each of those samples, but they all had steppe DNA, which can readily be seen.

TigerMW
01-23-2021, 03:58 PM
...
Why would this Bowman's earlier L51 line have mixed in several generations of Neolithic circles when subsequent British L51 clearly took Corded Ware-derived partners?
(By the way, interesting about the more basal form of L51.)
Are you sure it is basal? or are these just no calls? Even if he is basal P310* he is much later than the P310 MRCA who may have been a long way a way. Don't forget we have P310* way over in Mongolia at an earlier date.

Is the Bowman negative for L151, P312, U106, S1194 and A8053? If a no call on P312 and the others was he negative for A9063, BY140446, BY25512, DF19, DF27, FGC84729, L238, U152, Z290?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-P310

rms2
01-23-2021, 04:01 PM
Are you sure it is basal? or are these just no calls? Even if he is basal P310* he is much later than the P310 MRCA who may have been a long way a way. Don't forget we have P310* way over in Mongolia at an earlier date.

Is the Bowman negative for L151, P312, U106, S1194 and A8053? If a no call on P312 and the others was he negative for A9063, BY140446, BY25512, DF19, DF27, FGC84729, L238, U152, Z290?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-P310

I believe P310xL21 was just as far as Olalde et al were able to get. Probably I2416 was some kind of P312 other than L21.

rms2
01-23-2021, 04:26 PM
It might be interesting and informative to contrast I2416, the sample with the lowest steppe DNA of all the British Beaker skeletons (yet not without steppe DNA), with another of the Boscombe Bowmen, the roughly contemporary I2417, who was R1b-L21 and essentially Corded Ware in his autosomal profile.

Thanks to Generalissimo and his Eurogenes Blog for this graphic (except for the red box, which I added):

42767

etrusco
01-23-2021, 05:00 PM
Because with 3/20ths of the Corded Ware CHG, the graphic suggests that the Boscombe Bowman's dad mated with a native woman, his dad's dad mated with a native woman and his dad's dad's dad mated with a native woman. Essentially that 7 of his 8 great grandparents were Neolithics, that he had been raised by Neolithics rather than Corded Ware for 3 generations, which seems nonsensical. It lends credence to the old myth about L51 Beaker origins in Iberia, as the chart shows his mix to be similar to Iberians and even Iberian Beaker/Chalcolithic has similar small slithers of Steppe DNA.
Olaide indicates he was the earliest of the British samples, giving him the earliest date and placing him first in his figure 3 chart which he says is "ordered chronologically".
Why would this Bowman's earlier L51 line have mixed in several generations of Neolithic circles when subsequent British L51 clearly took Corded Ware-derived partners?
(By the way, interesting about the more basal form of L51.)

I would add also as a side note that there is no indication BB man taking CW women AFAIK

corner
01-23-2021, 05:01 PM
I2416 is positive for P310 and FGC11381, a SNP in our DF27>ZZ12 subclade's large phylogenetically equivalent SNP block. That block of dozens of SNPs formed 4300 ybp +/- a big margin of error (YFull). The block was founded around the time of the Boscombe Bowman.

All SNPs between P310 and FGC11381 are missing from I2416's .bam file. They are not negative or positive, they are missing completely. Clearly, confirmation that SNPs in the chain between L151 and FGC11381 (i.e. P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12>Z46512>FGC78762>ZZ19>Z34609>Z2571) are present is crucial for a confident identification. The FGC11381+ call is real, it's in the .bam file. Deamination can occur in ancient yDNA resulting in false C>T or G>A calls and FGC11381 is a C>T call.

However, the slim possibility that I2416 is DF27+ can't be completely ruled out - the SNPs needed to rule it out for certain are not present in the ancient yDNA sample. A number of degraded ancient samples have incongruous SNP calls in the phylogeny that highlight clear 'false positive' results but that is not the case for I2416. If FGC11381 turns out to be too young, i.e. if future modern NGS tests split the phylogenetically equivalent block and FGC11381 is found to be in the much more recent block, then the Boscombe Bowman's FGC11381+ would have to be a false positive.

TigerMW
01-23-2021, 05:47 PM
It lends credence to the old myth about L51 Beaker origins in Iberia, as the chart shows his mix to be similar to Iberians and even Iberian Beaker/Chalcolithic has similar small slithers of Steppe DNA.
If it is certainly a "myth" there is not much "credence" in these ideas. Nothing is impossible given our current knowledge so I would not call L51 early in Iberia impossible.

On the other hand, a diluted steppe auDNA in an individual 500-800 years after his ancestry left the steppes region is virtually no evidence at all other than a multi-generational effort to get from East Europe to Britain.

I think the most compelling evidence that affirms that an Iberian origin for L51 IS a "myth" are the early finds of P310 far away.

At about 3100 BC we have a true P310* person in Afansievo way over in Mongolia. YFull estimates the TMRCA of L51>P310 at 3700 BC and the TMRCA of L51>P310>L151 at 2800 BC. This puts the Afansievo individual at a very early date for P310. You can't really reach Mongolia by sea so I just don't know how an L51 folk makes it from Iberia to Mongolia at this early date.

We also have P310* and L151* individuals in Germany and Switzerland at about 2700 BC. This is probably a couple to three hundred years before any P310+ of any type reached Britain, and they are on the wrong side of the Pyrenees.

TigerMW
01-23-2021, 06:06 PM
I2416 is positive for P310 and FGC11381, a SNP in our DF27>ZZ12 subclade's large phylogenetically equivalent SNP block. That block of dozens of SNPs formed 4300 ybp +/- a big margin of error (YFull). The block was founded around the time of the Boscombe Bowman.

All SNPs between P310 and FGC11381 are missing from I2416's .bam file. They are not negative or positive, they are missing completely. Clearly, confirmation that SNPs in the chain between L151 and FGC11381 (i.e. P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12>Z46512>FGC78762>ZZ19>Z34609>Z2571) are present is crucial for a confident identification. The FGC11381+ call is real, it's in the .bam file. Deamination can occur in ancient yDNA resulting in false C>T or G>A calls and FGC11381 is a C>T call.

However, the slim possibility that I2416 is DF27+ can't be completely ruled out - the SNPs needed to rule it out for certain are not present in the ancient yDNA sample. A number of degraded ancient samples have incongruous SNP calls in the phylogeny that highlight clear 'false positive' results but that is not the case for I2416. If FGC11381 turns out to be too young, i.e. if future modern NGS tests split the phylogenetically equivalent block and FGC11381 is found to be in the much more recent block, then the Boscombe Bowman's FGC11381+ would have to be a false positive.

You are talking about the Rox2 cluster, right? I think we are talking about an SNP that should be in the R1b-P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12>FGC78762>ZZ19>Z34609>Z2571>FGC11380>FGC11397 phylogenetic equivalent block, right?
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-FGC11397

R-FGC11397 is 13 SNPs downstream of R-P310*.
R-L21 is 10 SNPs downstream of R-P310*.

So if R-FGC11397 is correct for the Bowman then the Amesbury Companion's L21 could be couple of hundred years after the R-L21 TMRCA ((13-10)*83). YFull thinks the L21 TMRCA is 2300 BC, but I think it is a little older as evidenced by these ancient DNA radio-carbon dates.

It makes it pretty hard not to place L21's MRCA back on the mainland.

rms2
01-23-2021, 06:52 PM
If it is certainly a "myth" there is not much "credence" in these ideas. Nothing is impossible given our current knowledge so I would not call L51 early in Iberia impossible.

I get what you're saying (especially in the context of the rest of your post), so I don't mean to quibble, but it depends on what one means by "early". Given all the ancient DNA results from Iberia, it's extremely unlikely (nearly impossible) that L51 got to Iberia before the advent of Beaker with steppe DNA, circa 2500 BC.

I think Reich already knows there was R1b-L51 in Yamnaya, which explains the many references in his book to "Y-DNA of steppe origin" in places where that could only be R1b-L51.



On the other hand, a diluted steppe auDNA in an individual 500-800 years after his ancestry left the steppes region is virtually no evidence at all other than a multi-generational effort to get from East Europe to Britain.

Right. It never ceases to amaze me when someone overlooks that very common-sense observation.

The farther the steppe-derived populations moved into Neolithic Farmer-dominated territory, and the more time they took to do it, the more Neolithic Farmer DNA their descendants acquired.

Imagine wearing light-colored clothes and setting off across a field in which blackberries grow, sparsely at first, but progressively denser and denser. By the time one reaches the far end of the field, his clothing is liable to carry the impression of a lot of blackberry juice.



I think the most compelling evidence that affirms that an Iberian origin for L51 IS a "myth" are the early finds of P310 far away.

At about 3100 BC we have a true P310* person in Afansievo way over in Mongolia. YFull estimates the TMRCA of L51>P310 at 3700 BC and the TMRCA of L51>P310>L151 at 2800 BC. This puts the Afansievo individual at a very early date for P310. You can't really reach Mongolia by sea so I just don't know how an L51 folk makes it from Iberia to Mongolia at this early date.

We also have P310* and L151* individuals in Germany and Switzerland at about 2700 BC. This is probably a couple to three hundred years before any P310+ of any type reached Britain, and they are on the wrong side of the Pyrenees.

And those individuals were Corded Ware, with Corded Ware autosomal DNA profiles, like Aesch25, who was about 80% Yamnaya, high even for Corded Ware.

rms2
01-23-2021, 07:15 PM
I would add also as a side note that there is no indication BB man taking CW women AFAIK

All the evidence indicates that CW men took local Neolithic Farmer women and that BB, a derivative of Single Grave CW, continued that practice.

It seems that the BB migrants to Britain, however, brought a lot of their own BB women with them, since total population replacement was in excess of 90%.

Hoppo
01-23-2021, 07:22 PM
Are you sure it is basal? or are these just no calls? Even if he is basal P310* he is much later than the P310 MRCA who may have been a long way a way. Don't forget we have P310* way over in Mongolia at an earlier date.

Is the Bowman negative for L151, P312, U106, S1194 and A8053? If a no call on P312 and the others was he negative for A9063, BY140446, BY25512, DF19, DF27, FGC84729, L238, U152, Z290?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-P310
OK, so maybe even L21 was a no call? Wikipedia says analysis of the skulls suggests the L21 Bowman with him was a relative.

rms2
01-23-2021, 07:24 PM
OK, so maybe even L21 was a no call? Wikipedia says analysis of the skulls suggests the L21 Bowman with him was a relative.

As I recall, I2416 was ancestral for L21. I'd have to hunt up the reference, but I believe that was the case.

Hoppo
01-23-2021, 07:26 PM
It might be interesting and informative to contrast I2416, the sample with the lowest steppe DNA of all the British Beaker skeletons (yet not without steppe DNA), with another of the Boscombe Bowmen, the roughly contemporary I2417, who was R1b-L21 and essentially Corded Ware in his autosomal profile.

Thanks to Generalissimo and his Eurogenes Blog for this graphic (except for the red box, which I added):

42767
Blimey! If I2417 was the son, his mother must have been regular Corded Ware or maybe even pure Steppe.

Hoppo
01-23-2021, 07:30 PM
I2416 is positive for P310 and FGC11381, a SNP in our DF27>ZZ12 subclade's large phylogenetically equivalent SNP block. That block of dozens of SNPs formed 4300 ybp +/- a big margin of error (YFull). The block was founded around the time of the Boscombe Bowman.

All SNPs between P310 and FGC11381 are missing from I2416's .bam file. They are not negative or positive, they are missing completely. Clearly, confirmation that SNPs in the chain between L151 and FGC11381 (i.e. P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12>Z46512>FGC78762>ZZ19>Z34609>Z2571) are present is crucial for a confident identification. The FGC11381+ call is real, it's in the .bam file. Deamination can occur in ancient yDNA resulting in false C>T or G>A calls and FGC11381 is a C>T call.

However, the slim possibility that I2416 is DF27+ can't be completely ruled out - the SNPs needed to rule it out for certain are not present in the ancient yDNA sample. A number of degraded ancient samples have incongruous SNP calls in the phylogeny that highlight clear 'false positive' results but that is not the case for I2416. If FGC11381 turns out to be too young, i.e. if future modern NGS tests split the phylogenetically equivalent block and FGC11381 is found to be in the much more recent block, then the Boscombe Bowman's FGC11381+ would have to be a false positive.
If correct, double blimey! The Bowman could have been the source of the Iberians, rather than the other way round. Or a French Bretagne source for both, as I think rms2 was suggesting might be the case?

rms2
01-23-2021, 07:38 PM
OK, so maybe even L21 was a no call? Wikipedia says analysis of the skulls suggests the L21 Bowman with him was a relative.

Not sure about Wikipedia (who is?), but Dr. A.P. Fitzpatrick of Wessex Archaeology, in his book, The Amesbury Archer and the Boscombe Bowmen, page xv, says of the Boscombe Bowmen remains that:



The similarities in the skulls suggest that the men came from a closely related community.

The skeleton of I2416 was nearly complete, the best preserved of the Boscombe Bowmen. The skeleton of I2417, however, was less complete. I'm not sure how much they could tell about his skull. His genome was obtained from disarticulated bone.

Not only did I2416 and I2417 belong to two different L51 subclades, but they also belonged to different mtDNA haplogroups. I2416 was K1b1a1, and I2417 was J1c. As already mentioned, their autosomal profiles were different, as well.

Pretty obviously, I2416 and I2417 were not closely related. They most definitely did not have the same father and/or mother, nor were they father and son.

TigerMW
01-23-2021, 07:55 PM
If correct, double blimey! The Bowman could have been the source of the Iberians, rather than the other way round. Or a French Bretagne source for both, as I think rms2 was suggesting might be the case?

This line of thought of "credence" for the L51 Iberian origin "myth" holds very little credence.

You may already know that much of DF27 is NOT Iberian.
1) The earliest DF27 ancient finds so far have been north of the Pyrenee Mountains.
2) The haplotree country report for the Rox2 R-FGC11397 subclade is
Ireland+N.Ireland 43
Scotland 22
England 18
Sweden 12
UK 4
Norway 1
Germany 1

I don't see Spain or Portugal, not even France.

rms2
01-23-2021, 08:04 PM
Re the Boscombe Bowmen skulls. (A lot of this info is stuff I was really conversant with a couple of years ago: I am having to dredge it up again, first in my memory.)

Fitzpatrick's "closely related community" (see the quote in my last post) simply refers to the fact that the Boscombe Bowmen skulls they were able to measure had that brachycephaly fairly common among Beaker people, especially males.

This is from page 22 of Fitzpatrick's The Amesbury Archer and the Boscombe Bowmen:



The crania were insufficiently intact to allow measurements to be taken for the calculation of indices other than the basic cranial index, which was calculated for the three adult males whose remains were in situ. There is a range of 81.0-82.4, with a mean of 81.7 and a SD of 0.57; all fall within the brachycranial range. This corresponds with the range most frequently recorded by Brothwell in his study of Bronze Age populations (1973, Abb. 65), where he demonstrated the general shift from the preponderance of dolichocranial skulls (long-headed) in the Neolithic to brachycranial skulls in the Bronze Age.

I doubt the general round-headedness of the Bowmen's skulls is any indication they were related beyond the fact that they were all Beaker men.

Certainly I2416 and I2417 were not closely related at all.

rms2
01-23-2021, 09:26 PM
If correct, double blimey! The Bowman could have been the source of the Iberians, rather than the other way round. Or a French Bretagne source for both, as I think rms2 was suggesting might be the case?

No, all I really suggested was the possibility that I2416 might have come from a line that made its way to Britain from Iberia or Bretagne, whereas it appears R1b-L21 Beaker had its source in the Lower Rhine (hence its autosomal proximity to Dutch Beaker).

Certainly I2416, in terms of steppe DNA, looks more like those two Iberian Beaker groups (BUR2 and MAD2) than he does the rest of British Beaker. However, keep in mind that I2416, BUR2, and MAD2 all had steppe DNA, just less than the rest of British Beaker.

rms2
01-23-2021, 09:46 PM
Here is something from two years ago that is well worth re-reading:

Single Grave > Bell Beakers (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html).

TigerMW
01-23-2021, 10:55 PM
I said I think Professor Kristiansen already knows. This video is more recent than the one you posted.
I've watched again several of Kristiansen's presentations. He is notable in that he doesn't dance around the political (in)correct issues.


(quoted from his presentations)
Plague may thus account for the Neolithic decline, paving the way for the steppe migrations, even if much still needs to be documented. However, that does not account for the genetic dominance of steppe male lines during the 3rd millennium BC onwards.
...
The authors propose patrilineal competition between lineages, leading to a global decclinein male y-haplo groups, and the later dominance of a few male lines, such as R1b and R1a for Yamnay and CW.
...
The link this to the spread of a pastoral economy of strong male competition and control.

He even says this is the "elephant in the room" and also explains this is not unique to Indo-Europeans. This has all gone on time and time again since the beginning. Young males are risk takers and often leave their homes and native regions if they are not in line for inheritance or have other resource restrictions. As they immigrate elsewhere they run into conflicts. If they are successful, they take wives with them to greener pastures. In the case of Corded Ware, they also burnt down forests to develop pastures. The first few generations of this were NOT agrarian but very much kept the pastoral economy.

I can relate this to a documentary I recently watched on the "Indian Wars" of the late 1800's in the Great Plains of America. The original tribes in the west were not necessarily as nomadic. They were more sedentary and agrarian.

I had not realized this but the tribes involved in these Great Plains battles were not necessarily from the Great Plains but came in and took advantage of the herds of wild (feral) mustangs left over from abandoned efforts by the Spanish. The authors believe this led to a Great Plains "horse warrior" culture. Naturally, it was male dominated and many men died off in the risky endeavors, such as raiding.

I don't know how involved horse riding was in Europe's Early Bronze Age but horses seem to be a big leverage point.

Surely he is smart enough to not bring up R1b unless he is talking about the L51 line, not just V1636.

TigerMW
01-23-2021, 11:29 PM
We use the terminology given to us by authors in these papers but I think the archaeologists have not been able to see well because of their specialized perspectives. Pottery shards are long lasting and apparent in archaelogical digs, but pots are not people. Dr. Kristiansen explained this well in regards to the expanding Corded Ware cultures.


(quotes from presentations)
The women were not locals... they were brought in... new migrants come in, most of these new migrants were males.
...
Yamnaya had no real pottery tradition. They were mobile. All their material culture was in mats, in woven things, in things that could move and wouldn't crack up like pottery.
...
Foreign women are potters and start to change the Yamnaya and Corded Ware material cultures.
...
This makes us understand why archaeologist have been so wrong about migration over the last 40 or 50 years because everyone looks at pots.

It is my opinion that Heyd's East Bell Beakers and van der Waal/Glasbergen's Dutch Bell Beakers should be renamed. They are not the early, traditional Bell Beaker cultures. They are transformative new cultures... mostly intermarriages of northern European Neolithic women with Yamnaya/Corded Ware men. They involved men leaving home and taking(ripping) women away from their homes and settling in new places. They are new cultures.
I don't think Le Mercier sees this yet. He is looking at the tail, not the dog.

rms2
01-24-2021, 12:34 AM
I've mentioned before that I also think David Reich knows there was R1b-L51 in Yamnaya, because he refers to "a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin" in places like Iberia, where that can't reasonably mean anything else but R1b-L51.

I've posted this excerpt from Reich's book, Who We Are and How We Got Here, pages 239-240, before, but it is one example of what I mean.



This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome. This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.28 We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.

rms2
01-24-2021, 12:55 AM
Speaking of pots and people, I do think the pots support the DNA in showing how Single Grave Corded Ware in the Lower Rhine morphed into Bell Beaker.

Look at the transformation of the AOO (All Over Ornamented) and AOC (All Over Corded) beakers that began in Single Grave Corded Ware and became Bell Beaker beakers as undecorated zones were added and widened.

42821